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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Par'Gellen
Gallente Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:20:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 18/08/2006 12:20:32
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Darius Shakor
Well either way it works it would make cross region trading more viable as a career, something CCP say they are racking their brain over in E:ON. The only way to do it now that is efficient is to have several accounts with alts in each major region to check and compare the markets.
Yeah, and having to use several alts just for checking the market is kind of lame tbh. They serve no other role than to give market information, which is a good sign its a game mechanic that needs to be reworked.
It will take some time, but im sure eventually ccp will do something about the needs for alts to trade and scout. The game shouldnt have to be played like that.
I agree with this so deeply and completely that I'm thinking about using it as the basis for a new religion!
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Boonaki
Caldari Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:21:00 -
[32]
Will we be able to block from seeing certain people?
Fear the Ibis of doom! |
Estelle Matsuko
Caldari The Beiatch Corp Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:24:00 -
[33]
With the auction system. What¦s to stop people using alts and corp mates to bid an item up?
Without a cast iron guarantee that this cannot happen the system will be flawed.....or am i missing something?
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:28:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dev Blog from jolly nice developer type person There will be extra taxation on heavily loaded systems (or a discount on not-so-loaded systems, however you want to put it) to encourage people to post contracts in a more distributed manner. This model will be applied to other things as well in the future.
Woot! Good move! -- (Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Si'quia
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:29:00 -
[35]
Looks good but I don't feel to well about being able to put up only 15 contracts.
I sell BPCs through escrows, since you cant use the regular market for them. My BPC list is like 20 different ships, and I normally put up like 3 BPCs for each on escrow, guess that will not work anymore
So how will I go about and use the contract system to sell my BPCs now ?
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Traxman
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:32:00 -
[36]
Since trust really dont exist in eve, why not build a leasing contract system while you redo the hole thing ? Person A have a T2 bpo, he can thereby put up an auction of a leasing contract of it for X isk for Y days to Person B in game.
By this the owner have the bpo safe but cant use it while its on leasing to person B.
Good or just a bad idea ?
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Reiisha
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:37:00 -
[37]
This should stay regional. With this new system, people might finally spread out more and make regionally viable economies instead of humping together in rens, ours and jita.
this will lay the groundwork for a long time ahead if the seperation stays as it is.
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Pille Dufrais
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Estelle Matsuko With the auction system. What¦s to stop people using alts and corp mates to bid an item up?
Without a cast iron guarantee that this cannot happen the system will be flawed.....or am i missing something?
There is nothing to stop them - but then you don't have to bid any higher unless you want to....
You can do this already with forums or other websites so you're no worse off.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:37:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Par'Gellen
I agree with this so deeply and completely that I'm thinking about using it as the basis for a new religion!
If im going to be the front figure, I want to be dressed in black and wear shades.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Krayl
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:41:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Krayl on 18/08/2006 12:42:03 Nice move, the system looks a lot better now. I'm left with a few queries though, regarding the limits and alliances.
That 500 limit for private corp contracts: Reading it, it doesn't seem to be per person, and in fact hurts you by taking up some of your public limit?
Also, I didn't see any mention of how alliances are affected here... I expect any alliances with more than 500 members to rightly complain if this limit is put in place.
Finally, is making corp/alliance contracts going to be a role-based action, or can just anyone do it (the blog makes it sound like anyone can...)?
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Krayl
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:46:00 -
[41]
in response to Si'quia:
It seems like you can put 75 up at once if you're in a corp and you have the sell items for corp role. Of course, that requires you to not be in an npc corp... (not saying you are, just saying it's going to force more people to move into player corps)
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Pepperami
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:59:00 -
[42]
Looks interesting. The only problem I'd have is exactly what was said in the blog, more skills??
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Hillesumos
Minmatar Egg Enterprise
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:23:00 -
[43]
My little two cents on this new evolution:
- 15 Limits for individual: I am a trader and well 15 is like nothing (i currently use 200+ slots on the market). Add maybe an extra skill to get a bit more up to maybe 75 zones with a lvl 3 skills that I would be happy to train. Also bear in the fact that the contract system is also supposed to replace the private hauling bit and not just only the escrow bit of the system and 15 is just far too small. I can easily issue in a populated system about 50 hauling jobs in a day and still want more. So unless you want to have no more private hauler or uber freighter sized hauler add some more slots for the more mundane jobs. By restricting the number of slot you are actually putting a value to it and thus hauling jobs are not the best valuable jobs so the choice will be simple: a valuable sale or a convenient haul. I get the sale and deal with the haul in a different way thus the joe blog hauler profession for starter characters disappears. - this 15 slots limits will also put pressure to traders like me to effectively create one man corps just to get access to higher limit of jobs and be able to have more lines on the market since i may not be in the position to get the required roles (unless it is heavily specialised) to do corp sales and then there is the issue of the money going to the corp and not to me. You see, there are very few pure traders corps and even in them we tend to keep our personal profit private from the corp wallet and the trader is like the industrialist a small subgroup in a pvp oriented corporation.
- The large limit on alliance/corporate based internal contract will effectively create very private and exclusives markets where the best and more ressourcefull deals will occur in large alliance or specialised traders alliances. This may not be an intended consequence of such system but in large alliance for expensive kits there is deffinitively a very liquid market.
As again, it all boil down to the fact that putting a cap on the numbers of orders effectively put a price/profit issue on such item like on the market system. One gripe i do have with eve system is that there are very few traders like me and we are effectively limited by the numbers of orders. I would much prefer to be limited by one simple thing: money. All theses contract and orders means that I imobilize a sizeable amount of my cash flow in the system. For instance if i put a hauling job, i immobilize the cost of the hauling from my wallet and i am happy about that. This cash flow control is a lot more effective than basic order control. The other control is the competition from other people and from the fact that the more jobs you put the more time it take to check them. So with thoses two checks you effectively limit overzealousness and create a very dynamic system especially in low sec or in 0.0.
The other bits are nice and the current design would satisfy the average single items contract person. It will also put more item on the markets system and thus provide a fairer competition but for the die hard traders like me it is not really useful since it is too limited on the number of slots. Remember that people use the escow system for the fact that it is very liquid (ie can get loads of order on it for little cost). To reduce the spamming for low level item, you are better off to "force" people to use the market system when it is possible to put the item in the market. The best way to do that would be to tax a lot more the market ready items entered in contract than in the market system. So let say i want to sell a packaged raven without any extra, it would cost 10% in the contract system to do so instead of the usual market system fee. What would be left would be BM trades, researched bpo, bpc, byom deals, ships package deals, hauling deals and it would removes load of other items that would go through the market. ---------
Sadly I just make ISK, I don't print it. :(
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Hillesumos
Minmatar Egg Enterprise
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:28:00 -
[44]
One more note: if you REALLY want to make the low sec and 0.0 market more lively you need to put incentive. One way to do so is to modulate the "cost" of putting item in the market or in the contract system. So let says that you can have up to 500 units of market orders or contract. In 0.0 not so busy system, you can effectively create 500 individuals orders, in low sec more busy system, it cost 5 units to create one order ---> only 100 individual orders available. In very busy hubb system: it cost 50 units to create an order ---> only 20 orders availables. As stated, this kind of limit would create an incentive to move out of hubbs and would modulate the true value of an order. Call it an advertising cost where to put an add in a busy system is more costly than in a unfrequented system which is not the case actually. ---------
Sadly I just make ISK, I don't print it. :(
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Raider Zero
Minmatar Federation
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:35:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Hillesumos One more note: if you REALLY want to make the low sec and 0.0 market more lively you need to put incentive. One way to do so is to modulate the "cost" of putting item in the market or in the contract system. So let says that you can have up to 500 units of market orders or contract. In 0.0 not so busy system, you can effectively create 500 individuals orders, in low sec more busy system, it cost 5 units to create one order ---> only 100 individual orders available. In very busy hubb system: it cost 50 units to create an order ---> only 20 orders availables. As stated, this kind of limit would create an incentive to move out of hubbs and would modulate the true value of an order. Call it an advertising cost where to put an add in a busy system is more costly than in a unfrequented system which is not the case actually.
I like this idea on how to help with what seems to be an objective to de-centralize trading a little bit. I also like the objective itself btw.
PLEASE make kill rights trading possible. Bounty hunting could be really cool, since anybody knows the current bounty system is not functional as intended.
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BoinKlasik
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:54:00 -
[46]
Edited by: BoinKlasik on 18/08/2006 13:56:30 Why cant the number of contracts you put up and the number of market orders simply become linked? Currently I can do 30 something orders I think (not a lot, but it fits my needs.) If i have 5 sell orders and 5 contracts up, why cant i have a total pool left of 20. Or make them worth by a multiple more (say like 2 or 8, i dunno) than market orders (given complexity yaddda yada...gerbils.) And then you just need one skill to reduce the ratio and you dont need anything else than the current market order skills to do anything. Dunno, i think its sexy.
I had another question, but forgot it I think it had to do with the customizability of contracts, but i figured out a solution from current information already. (Variable pricing past the purchace of X products, but a custom contract fixes that because I presume you could set a price later)
*doh, I broke my edited sig :/* *cries* this signature was lacking pink, I'll provide it for you. There. Looks better doesn't it? -Eris Fixed it for you. Oh, btw, yarr! ~kieron Didn't I tell you? The damsel moved in with me, we're having a great time. - Wrangler The damsel may not be distressed any more, but how many times does the informant have to be silenced before he gets the message? - Cortes
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Francesca Dell'Agio
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:00:00 -
[47]
Hang on.
Only 500 outstanding contracts allowed for a corporation? Did I understand that correctly?
That can't be correct. That is just not enough. Not by a long shot.
Another question .. on auctions. The taxation bit is now clearer, but out of curiosity how is cancelling auctions handled? Will people loose ISK if they cancel an auction for a certain value? If you'd auction something, you'd want to pay as little tax as possible (doh), so you start the auction at 1ISK with a buyout of 10B, and the day before end of the auction you see the highest bid is only 70M, a fraction of the minimum of 1B you had in mind but never set because you didn't want to pay tax for 1B .. How is that handled?
WTB: In Game Map Setting: Players logged off in system last 24 hours. Guess why ^^
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Dastur
Gallente Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Caerleus So whats now to stop people setting up auctions with a 0.01 isk starting value to avoid any taxation?
You'd be surprised at how *low* a multibillion isk object can go with such a starting value.
You might save the tax, but you sure as hell won't save on the profit :)
-- It's easy to fly, It's easy to land. The hard part is to land the thing in one piece! --
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Glassback
M. Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.18 14:25:00 -
[49]
So whats the TV show?
G.
I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about
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Kylania
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:09:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Hillesumos My little two cents on this new evolution:
- 15 Limits for individual: I am a trader and well 15 is like nothing (i currently use 200+ slots on the market).
You'll still have 200+ on the market. This is the escrow replacement, you're not selling 200 things on escrow are you? If so, you're part of the problem of needing this replacement.
Originally by: Hillesumos Add maybe an extra skill to get a bit more up to maybe 75 zones with a lvl 3 skills that I would be happy to train. Also bear in the fact that the contract system is also supposed to replace the private hauling bit and not just only the escrow bit of the system and 15 is just far too small. I can easily issue in a populated system about 50 hauling jobs in a day and still want more.
This is a good question, since this is meant as a replacement for both Courier missions and escrow, is the 15 limit for both types? Because I can easily see even just a casual player needing to have 15 courier missions up while at the same time having 5-10 items up for sale on escrow as well. For the "real" traders that just might be a huge nerf cutting down on both escrow and courier ability.
Originally by: Hillesumos - this 15 slots limits will also put pressure to traders like me to effectively create one man corps just to get access to higher limit of jobs and be able to have more lines on the market since i may not be in the position to get the required roles (unless it is heavily specialised) to do corp sales and then there is the issue of the money going to the corp and not to me.
I don't think that a one map corp will help you any, except for maybe hauling with your own alt. The unlimited corp contracts are global contracts only for your corp. You won't be able to make a one man corp and put up all these contracts and have anyone else at all see them. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap | CCG Card Lookup |
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Sir Juri
Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:29:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Sir Juri on 18/08/2006 15:31:18
I was hoping you would only be able to see contracts within the region your in space becomes so small with the current escrow system. Damnit you should revert to only beeing able to see/put up accept contracts within the region your in. Then perhaps have an existing trading skill that would allow you to trade cross region.
Damnit So much could have been better with only region trading for everyone except the lazy.
damn need to make a new sig... |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:34:00 -
[52]
Interesting blog, a step in the right direction. Of course, we know (and appreciate) that you listen to the community, else we wouldnt bother at all ;)
But a question you really need to answer before one can keep pointing out the obvious flaws: are the limitations you keep insisting on due to hardware considerations (to prevent 200k people from putting up 200k contracts each) or game design?
I dont see (outside of the obvious financial reasons to get everyone to pay for 10 accounts) why you would limit the characters, but NOT the players behind those characters. An industrialist character may be limited to 10 production jumps, but the industrial player STIL runs 90. The same thing will happen here:
15 contracts per character: No problem for officer module traders and t2 BPO resellers - 1-2 alts will be more then enough. For Caracal BPC sellers, this is a nightmare. As someone already pointed out, you are introducing yet another lame OOG resource to the game (or better, you transfer the concept from other areas of the game - production, Research, RnD agents etc).
Corp contracts: Oh noes, now i have to leave my NPC corp to have lots of contracts!. Nope. I already have 2 (alt) corps for various reasons that have to do with standing (thanks for the lame corp standing mechanic that promotes alt-corps over "real" corps).
"look but dont touch": helps people who do boring stuff in sapce to browse the contract list, and only log in trading alts when there is actually something worth buying. Since you have to be in the region to claim the stuff, alts are still the best solution. Or a "jumper" character - but a big part of the traveling time is the loading delay between systems - it may not be a lot of seconds, but its what creates the uncomfortable feeling of manual travel in fast ships. Considering that you have to interupt your browsing every time you jump, i think i will not be the only one who will browse contracts in station and let an alt handle the claiming.
"Congestion tax": depending on how bad expensive that one is, people will either ignore it and bunch up in Jita, or it will be enough to kill Jita: which means longer traveling times, more hassle etc since i dont know a single system besides Jita that actually has everything in one station. Remember that creating that system will be penalized by the tax, so there is no reason to list "micro cap batteries" or everything else that is not guaranteed to be popular. Which means: hubs that cover basics, but no hub covering everything you need at once.
Even if its 20 jumps from your location to 4/4 Cnap, it still saves time over flying around several systems, and several stations. Especially because 20 jumps can be afked, while the dock/undock/set 3 jump destination grind cannot.
So the solution to every limitation presented by the new contract system? Alts. Everything proposed so far thus not apply to the player, just to his favorite character. The player is actually annoyed because of the frequent relogs - but powergaming-wise, his abilities are not limited. Except by the number of accounts he has. I think you should seriously consider a major redesign when it comes to the limitations, i just dont see a point playing a game where the most fun way to play (one or several seperate "character(s)" with actual personality, backstory etc that function as natural divisions of unrelated activities) is nowhere near the most efficient one (many "toons" who provide various "slots").
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:53:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 18/08/2006 15:53:51 [Word limit]
Important questions:
Claiming an contract - can it be done remotely (within the region)? What i mean: i can now claim an escrow deep in 0.0. The item imediatly appears in my hangar, and i can escrow it right back for double the price (thats how i got my money ...), trash it, or place a courier mission so that someone brings it to my doorstep. If i understand it correctly, you cannot do this with "corp buyorders", meaning that you have to fly over there and get the stuff out of deliveries before you can interact with it.
Private contracts: i take it that they work like "restricted escrows"?
Are there limits on how many you can put up (up to an unreasonable amount like 1-10k)? Can they be claimed from everywhere or limited to region? Do they immediatly apear in the hangar, or is there another step like deliveries? I am obviously talking about the good old "sell" contracts, but what about the more advanced ones? if i have 10 apocs in jita 4/4, and there is an trade contact for 10 ravens in the same station, will i be able to activate it from friggi (same region)? From the deepest dephts of the Shadowlands (delve)?
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Sir Juri
Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.08.18 15:58:00 -
[54]
dont revert CCP keep contracts to only beeing visible within the region your in!!! come on
PS:sorry to post it again, but..
damn need to make a new sig... |
Si'quia
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:09:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Krayl in response to Si'quia:
It seems like you can put 75 up at once if you're in a corp and you have the sell items for corp role. Of course, that requires you to not be in an npc corp... (not saying you are, just saying it's going to force more people to move into player corps)
Yeah, but that means I would have to sell the items on behalf of the corp. Apart from doing BPCs I trade in a lot of other non-market items as well, such as DS loot and faction ships. These are being sold by me, not by the corp. And those exceed the 15 limit pretty much all of the time as well.
I really think we should be able to have more than 15 individual contracts out. If those need to have skilltraining, okay, no problem, I will train it, but 15 is really really low.
Then again, adapting is a big part of this game ofcourse
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JP Moregain
Gallente Moregain Guaranty Trust
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:26:00 -
[56]
Edited by: JP Moregain on 18/08/2006 16:27:16 I know you guys feel like you are responding to player desire by limiting the new skills training. Cudos for trying to be responsive.
That said, I think you need to make some exceptions for 'specialized corporation' classes like banks. Mainly because a bank or investment company are handling player assets more directly than other types of corporations. They are acting as 'intermediaries' between players effectively, and the current game mechanics are trying to do that within the structure of an industrial corporation.
This is leading to a lot of fraud in the sector and it (the high level of fraud) could eventually kill that sector of the economy.
Why not make some specialized, long training, expensive skills to operate a bank so that the CEO's of these operations have to make a more difficult decision to walk off with player ISK.
"Gee I just spent X months and a lot of money building this specialty character, I can run off with the player money, or I can make a go of it..."
Until you better align the incentives of the CEO's with the shareholders and 'depositors' in this game the fraud will overwhelm the develpment of the economy.
Regards, JP
"In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..." |
Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:35:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 18/08/2006 16:35:30
I'm not seeing this removing the desireability for an external "evebay" website to handle this instead, to be entirely honest.
*tax (ESPECIALLY "more in crowded systems"!) *no cross-region claims/limited visibility cross-region *forced auction (I want to sell fixed-price a lot of the time) *serious limits on number of items sold *certain items are not worth selling (rare / not on market but not THAT expensive)
Moreover, you won't spread out anyone by raising "taxes" in crowded systems, they'll just stop using those systems. You have to provide positive incentives to spread out. And that means certain current LIMITS need looking at, not adding new ones.
So..I'm going to keep helping certain people with their website.
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Rab
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:50:00 -
[58]
I wonder if this system will allow multiple sales of the same item:
eg. Megathron BPC 1 run ME20
At present the escrow system is bloated with these, sellers often listing 20 or more the same despite the fact they will disappear from view within hours and need relisting.
If they allowed a stacked sale, perhaps this would allay fears of only having 15 personal contracts:
eg. Megathron BPC 1 run ME20 (17 / 25 available)
You would no doubt have to pay tax on each one listed or sold.
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Juwi Kotch
Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2006.08.18 16:52:00 -
[59]
So no real chance to get a true overview about global offers like with the present escrow anymore?
I mean, there are more then 60 regions with the new expansion, and to get an overview where to buy let's say +4 implants cheapest for a whole set, would occupy you at least a whole evening, in case you do not just give it up after half an hour or two, because you can't just stand that clicking around anymore...
Juwi Kotch
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Max Tesla
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Posted - 2006.08.18 17:28:00 -
[60]
How about you forget about all the new things and actually fix all the bugs and problems that are backlogged up to wazo!
For example the drone problem with drones unlocking assigned target and flying away.
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