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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
735
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Posted - 2014.11.03 12:05:03 -
[91] - Quote
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:A lone frigate vs a lone battle cruiser should be a stalemate, with neither being able to break the others tank; without the battle cruiser bringing back-up to tackle the frigate down or the frigate bringing back-up to break the battle cruiser's defenses. Instead, this engagements plays out more like, "Battle cruiser webs down frigate (twice[?]), frigate dies."
Sounds like someone can't pilot a frig <.<
But yes, there should be stronger/more demanding to fit points/webs or tackle in general for bigger ships, with downsides when fitting a smaller version. While at it, could also spread those ranges a little: Frigatepoint to 18km, cruiser to 24km and BS point to 26km or similar. Frigateweb/scram to 6km, cruiser to 10k and BS to a bit more. Or something along those lines...
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
941
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Posted - 2014.11.03 13:10:43 -
[92] - Quote
i would advocate a web strength nerf say a T2 web should max out at 45%
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
205
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Posted - 2014.11.03 14:34:11 -
[93] - Quote
Webs are not OP. Let me guess, if webs are nurffed and you die to a neut, you will be back asking for a nurff to neuts.. etc
There is a very easy counter to webs. Don't get too close.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
446
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Posted - 2014.11.03 14:36:30 -
[94] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:There is a very easy counter to webs. Don't get too close.
Linked rapier with faction webs says "hi" at well over 70km |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1872
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Posted - 2014.11.03 14:37:18 -
[95] - Quote
Webs have a pretty short range, but I think large ships have too easy a time hitting small ones.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
146
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:08:07 -
[96] - Quote
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:As it is webs are just a bad game mechanic. .
Oh, so ECM is alright huh?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13767
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:18:22 -
[97] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:As it is webs are just a bad game mechanic. . Oh, so ECM is alright huh?
Now that you say it I haven't seen a falcon in months...
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
1
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:23:41 -
[98] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Neut it out. It slows down to battleship speeds it still evades some damage but with both drones and grazing weapons, it won't last very long. Apparently this argument is only going over your head, or perhaps it is, under your guns. Obviously you don't fly frigates. Fighting anything larger than a destroyer in a frig is far more difficult then engaging a frig with a bs. And yes they should have battleship scaled fitting requirements. That is the thesis of the argument.
Even neuted out at 2000m you are not going to be hitting that frigate. Ige, fly battleships, Im telling you frigates are the single worst thing for a turret BS to go up against at point blank range.
If really is the worst thing for you to go up against at point blank range, you should bring a destroyer to aid you in all of these cases.
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
13
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:33:47 -
[99] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Even neuted out at 2000m you are not going to be hitting that frigate. I fly battleships, Im telling you frigates are the single worst thing for a turret BS to go up against at point blank range.
confirming this , i frequently fly frigates point blank against turret battleships , they need scram,webs,neuts and strong drone skills to kill you.
Of course this keeps trailing back to quoting the most disparaged scenario as a standard engagement. That Battleship should bring a smaller ship to help him kill smaller ships in all of these cases. It is particularly nonsensical that ships like that can fly around unsupported like that at all. Although there should be some way for these things to be effective, webs are modules that target one ship class specifically, and it is that targeting that is unbalanced, most other ships can shrug off being webbed, because they have a significant amount of ehp to do so; frigates do not have substantial amounts of ehp without serious isk investment, like I said before, they can fit webs, but there should be more of a choice for doing so, if a web is an item that targets a specific ship class, it should have penalties that make the ship equipping it less effective at engaging other ship classes. If that means a larger CPU fitting requirement so that you have to choose between your EANM and your web, then that makes sense. Fine; however, currently there are no modules that reduces the other ships ability to survive by 60%. |
Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
13
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:36:01 -
[100] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: Can you avoid being shot up by a cruiser in a frig while not having any prop mods going? Because if prop mods are the counter to web, then presumably with no web, no prop mod would be necessary.
Yes, typically with close enough range and provided that neither ship have propulsion, you can avoid being shot up by a cruiser in a frig, with no propulsion, if that cruiser has no webs.
So to make a point you need to remove the sole purpose of a shipsize and class as a whole?
Yep, sounds almost reasonable..[/quote]
Your information is not comprehensive enough to infer that conclusion, please explain what you mean more accurately, or I won't be able to consider your point.
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
16
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:39:30 -
[101] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:As it is webs are just a bad game mechanic. . Oh, so ECM is alright huh?
ECM is a niche module, that is fitted onto specific ships that are to handle it because of bonuses, not every ship can use ECM well, webs are today, what ECM used to be before they nerfed it. They were on EVERY ship, and messed with EVERY engagement People wanted that to change too, and people resisted that change as well.
I have literally just provided you with a precedent decision on this type of module in the past.
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
16
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:41:52 -
[102] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:A lone frigate vs a lone battle cruiser should be a stalemate, with neither being able to break the others tank; without the battle cruiser bringing back-up to tackle the frigate down or the frigate bringing back-up to break the battle cruiser's defenses. Instead, this engagements plays out more like, "Battle cruiser webs down frigate (twice[?]), frigate dies."
Sounds like someone can't pilot a frig <.< But yes, there should be stronger/more demanding to fit points/webs or tackle in general for bigger ships, with downsides when fitting a smaller version. While at it, could also spread those ranges a little: Frigatepoint to 18km, cruiser to 24km and BS point to 26km or similar. Frigateweb/scram to 6km, cruiser to 10k and BS to a bit more. Or something along those lines...
That is an idea that is more along the lines of what I am saying, there should be different classes of these things or something needs to be done to niche-ify them.
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
16
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:44:12 -
[103] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:i would advocate a web strength nerf say a T2 web should max out at 45%
No, that is not the point of the thread, in spite of its title, webs need to be reclassed entirely, simply dropping the effectiveness of all webs by a flat rate is making a broken mechanic worse by giving too much advantage to the frigates. |
Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
17
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:48:43 -
[104] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Webs are not OP. Let me guess, if webs are nurffed and you die to a neut, you will be back asking for a nurff to neuts.. etc
There is a very easy counter to webs. Don't get too close.
Welcome the land of, "Trolling without even reading the thread". I have explained many times before that neuts are a diverse and scaled weapon, that has specific benefits and consequences that can be used against all ship classes. Neuts are fine, if I died to neuts I'd say "next time I'll bring a cap booster", with webs my choices are, "next time, I'll fit a HG Snake set with Loki links and a deadspace AB." |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
447
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:55:58 -
[105] - Quote
Or, you know, stay more than 10km away from regular hulls? |
Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
20
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:56:46 -
[106] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Even the best tracking medium guns will not hit a single webbed AB frigate, even a cruiser has to be specifically fitted to be able to deal with a frigate.
This thread makes no sense whatsoever.
That is untrue, medium guns, can hit targets can hit targets that are unwebbed; a cruiser carrying a web, is not specifically fitted to deal with a frigate, you literally web them down and in most cases you need to simply travel so that your alignment is similar to theirs. Frigate webs should have marginal effects on larger ships classes, and larger webs should have marginal effects on frigate classes,
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
20
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:59:03 -
[107] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Or, you know, stay more than 10km away from regular hulls?
Please read the post, obviously enough, when you weapon range is in that range, and you need to engage that target, you can't. Your arguments are consistently not providing contribution to the debate.
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Notorious Fellon
349
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Posted - 2014.11.03 16:04:00 -
[108] - Quote
Nerffing webs would seriously make brawling BS's useless, and would make them way too vulnerable to small ships that cost almost nothing.
We have to at least give BS's a chance against small ships. Webs make that possible. Unless we are going to give them a few extra high-slots that are somehow restricted to small guns I don't see a way to remove Webs.
Many ships like the Mega would become not worth flying.
Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
447
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Posted - 2014.11.03 16:31:14 -
[109] - Quote
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:afkalt wrote:Or, you know, stay more than 10km away from regular hulls? Please read the post, obviously enough, when you weapon range is in that range, and you need to engage that target, you can't. Your arguments are consistently not providing contribution to the debate.
Yet you've failed to address my repeatedly pointing out that nerfing webs makes garmurs and succubi immortal.
You've also failed to address that making the only serious deterrent to frigates weaker means that there is little reason to fly anything else. I can fit up an enyo that tanks ~200dps, deals 300dps the ONLY thing saving anything bigger than a frigate from that is a web as they are today.
Weakening webs creates assault frigates online, even against hulls built to kill them because the only thing making it possible at all are webs.
Your arguments are nothing more then "dear designers, scissors are OP, please nerf, love paper" |
Mag's
the united
18124
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Posted - 2014.11.03 16:48:36 -
[110] - Quote
I would say if anything, webs were nerfed too much in the last pass on them. So to suggest they need nerfing more, simply smacks of ignorance of current mechanics and their uses.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
276
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:00:52 -
[111] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I would say if anything, webs were nerfed too much in the last pass on them. So to suggest they need nerfing more, simply smacks of ignorance of current mechanics and their uses.
Lol, couldn't disagree more.
Why would you ever fit a brawling ship wihout webs? Why would you ever fit a large solo ship without webs? You wouldn't. Without webs you are dead before you undock. Certainly doesn't make for interesting tradeoffs when fitting.
Yes, webs are OP as **** relative to other modules. So much so that they are baked into the game; pvp balance is based on their existence. |
Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
22
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:12:25 -
[112] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:afkalt wrote:Or, you know, stay more than 10km away from regular hulls? Please read the post, obviously enough, when you weapon range is in that range, and you need to engage that target, you can't. Your arguments are consistently not providing contribution to the debate. Yet you've failed to address my repeatedly pointing out that nerfing webs makes garmurs and succubi immortal. You've also failed to address that making the only serious deterrent to frigates weaker means that there is little reason to fly anything else. I can fit up an enyo that tanks ~200dps, deals 300dps the ONLY thing saving anything bigger than a frigate from that is a web as they are today. Weakening webs creates assault frigates online, even against hulls built to kill them because the only thing making it possible at all are webs. Your arguments are nothing more then "dear designers, scissors are OP, please nerf, love paper"
Redesigning webs so that there are different scales for them is not nerfing them. Garmurs and Succubi are not made any more immortal then they are today. Considering that the primary counter for killing Garmurs and Succubi is 2-3 fast frigates with scram//web and that this thread actually suggest scaling webs to different sizes, the effects on the Garmur and Succubi remains unchanged and the Caracal Navy Issue still owns all frigates. The ships that hard counter afs today do not do so solely on the basis of webs, they do it on the basis of drones and missiles. Which counter the ship class more evenly being that they are scaled. I have not addressed your arguement because you are making sweeping statements that the thread has not suggested. You read the title, not the suggestion, and then started throwing counter arguments out. Kudos, but assault frigates online is not going to happen, And your Enyo will continue to lose to ships like the Vengeance, Caracal, Scythe Fleet Issue, Stabber Fleet Issue, Vexor, and Ishtar.
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Portmanteau
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
28
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:16:26 -
[113] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Mag's wrote:I would say if anything, webs were nerfed too much in the last pass on them. So to suggest they need nerfing more, simply smacks of ignorance of current mechanics and their uses. Lol, couldn't disagree more. Why would you ever fit a brawling ship wihout webs? Why would you ever fit a large solo ship without webs? You wouldn't. Without webs you are dead before you undock. Certainly doesn't make for interesting tradeoffs when fitting. Yes, webs are OP as **** relative to other modules. So much so that they are baked into the game; pvp balance is based on their existence.
You are mistaken, you have just failed to appreciate that webs are perhaps more important than other modules because they affect range control, the same is true of prop mods. The fact that webs or prop mods are considered before 95% of other mods when fitting a ship does not mean they are OP, it is merely a reflection of how important range control is in PvP. By your logic weapons are even more OP since "when would you ever fit a solo ship without weapons"
Mags is right, if anything they got over nerfed last time, you just need to learn how to deal with it. |
Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
22
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:17:46 -
[114] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:Nerffing webs would seriously make brawling BS's useless, and would make them way too vulnerable to small ships that cost almost nothing.
We have to at least give BS's a chance against small ships. Webs make that possible. Unless we are going to give them a few extra high-slots that are somehow restricted to small guns I don't see a way to remove Webs.
Many ships like the Mega would become not worth flying.
I have already suggested that the tracking of these things be increased to compensate for the lack, but still. Using neuts is a more balanced and well thought out counter than webs, which are diversity defeating.
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
22
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:22:46 -
[115] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Phaade wrote:Mag's wrote:I would say if anything, webs were nerfed too much in the last pass on them. So to suggest they need nerfing more, simply smacks of ignorance of current mechanics and their uses. Lol, couldn't disagree more. Why would you ever fit a brawling ship wihout webs? Why would you ever fit a large solo ship without webs? You wouldn't. Without webs you are dead before you undock. Certainly doesn't make for interesting tradeoffs when fitting. Yes, webs are OP as **** relative to other modules. So much so that they are baked into the game; pvp balance is based on their existence. You are mistaken, you have just failed to appreciate that webs are perhaps more important than other modules because they affect range control, the same is true of prop mods. The fact that webs or prop mods are considered before 95% of other mods when fitting a ship does not mean they are OP, it is merely a reflection of how important range control is in PvP. By your logic weapons are even more OP since "when would you ever fit a solo ship without weapons" Mags is right, if anything they got over nerfed last time, you just need to learn how to deal with it.
That is not the argument, you have not read the thread. It is not solely their over consideration that attributes to their dis-balance, propulsion modules are scaled to the ship size. Webs are not. If you want to avoid being webbed, the frigate needs to optimize its fitting requirements by fitting a 10MN AB to survive being webbed. A Cruiser/Battle Cruiser/ Battleship hull needs only to a fit a web, and at the same requirements that a frigate does. Your conclusive argument is invalid seeing as that does not apply to the suggestion.
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
95
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:24:02 -
[116] - Quote
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Nerffing webs would seriously make brawling BS's useless, and would make them way too vulnerable to small ships that cost almost nothing.
We have to at least give BS's a chance against small ships. Webs make that possible. Unless we are going to give them a few extra high-slots that are somehow restricted to small guns I don't see a way to remove Webs.
Many ships like the Mega would become not worth flying. I have already suggested that the tracking of these things be increased to compensate for the lack, but still. Using neuts is a more balanced and well thought out counter than webs, which are diversity defeating.
you realize how much tracking would have to be increased to counter a single web? It would make every turret based ship op
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
95
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:26:32 -
[117] - Quote
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Phaade wrote:Mag's wrote:I would say if anything, webs were nerfed too much in the last pass on them. So to suggest they need nerfing more, simply smacks of ignorance of current mechanics and their uses. Lol, couldn't disagree more. Why would you ever fit a brawling ship wihout webs? Why would you ever fit a large solo ship without webs? You wouldn't. Without webs you are dead before you undock. Certainly doesn't make for interesting tradeoffs when fitting. Yes, webs are OP as **** relative to other modules. So much so that they are baked into the game; pvp balance is based on their existence. You are mistaken, you have just failed to appreciate that webs are perhaps more important than other modules because they affect range control, the same is true of prop mods. The fact that webs or prop mods are considered before 95% of other mods when fitting a ship does not mean they are OP, it is merely a reflection of how important range control is in PvP. By your logic weapons are even more OP since "when would you ever fit a solo ship without weapons" Mags is right, if anything they got over nerfed last time, you just need to learn how to deal with it. That is not the argument, you have not read the thread. It is not solely their over consideration that attributes to their dis-balance, propulsion modules are scaled to the ship size. Webs are not. If you want to avoid being webbed, the frigate needs to optimize its fitting requirements by fitting a 10MN AB to survive being webbed. A Cruiser/Battle Cruiser/ Battleship hull needs only to a fit a web, and at the same requirements that a frigate does. Your conclusive argument is invalid seeing as that does not apply to the suggestion.
issue being that all ships have been updated with the current web cost. but I'm no longer against this because it would be more cpu for my cpu starved ships that don't fit a web.
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
22
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:26:46 -
[118] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Mag's wrote:I would say if anything, webs were nerfed too much in the last pass on them. So to suggest they need nerfing more, simply smacks of ignorance of current mechanics and their uses. Lol, couldn't disagree more. Why would you ever fit a brawling ship wihout webs? Why would you ever fit a large solo ship without webs? You wouldn't. Without webs you are dead before you undock. Certainly doesn't make for interesting tradeoffs when fitting. Yes, webs are OP as **** relative to other modules. So much so that they are baked into the game; pvp balance is based on their existence.
That has been made evident to me by the fact that so many have come to troll on the post. I wasn't suggesting that they be removed, but currently the best strategy (realistically) for defending you battleship against frigates is to bring frigates and destroyers to support it. Instead people take the option of simply not bringing those ships to help defend your fleet, and instead bring MORE large ships that are simply fitted with webs that hard counter and entire ship class, and all for 24 cpu.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
6381
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:29:14 -
[119] - Quote
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Welcome the land of, "Trolling without even reading the thread". I have explained many times before that neuts are a diverse and scaled weapon, that has specific benefits and consequences that can be used against all ship classes. Neuts are fine, if I died to neuts I'd say "next time I'll bring a cap booster", with webs my choices are, "next time, I'll fit a HG Snake set with Loki links and a deadspace AB."
Oh ffs. you don't need boots you don't need dead space fit
halos are better if you're in web range.
And webs work on everything
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Animadversion Tactical Operations Index
22
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:29:24 -
[120] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote:Nerffing webs would seriously make brawling BS's useless, and would make them way too vulnerable to small ships that cost almost nothing.
We have to at least give BS's a chance against small ships. Webs make that possible. Unless we are going to give them a few extra high-slots that are somehow restricted to small guns I don't see a way to remove Webs.
Many ships like the Mega would become not worth flying. I have already suggested that the tracking of these things be increased to compensate for the lack, but still. Using neuts is a more balanced and well thought out counter than webs, which are diversity defeating. you realize how much tracking would have to be increased to counter a single web? It would make every turret based ship op
It is a thing that is mathematical not skill based thing that is hampered by bad game mechanics, and balance can be found. |
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