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Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1427
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:35:57 -
[1] - Quote
It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before. CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships. Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.
Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.
Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.
Personnel Division Director - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse-á
CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
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Edison Severasse
VX9 Intergalactic Gaming Inc. Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:42:06 -
[2] - Quote
I am right there with you Thorn. Doesn't make sense to me. +1 |
Xabib Elder
The Sith Syndicate REFORD
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:44:12 -
[3] - Quote
Jump Bridges are just useless now |
Tegwien
Grumpy Pirates Association Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:44:43 -
[4] - Quote
Doesn't make any sense what so ever. +1 |
Sigrig Bostan Alar
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
2
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:44:44 -
[5] - Quote
At the very least, get rid of Jump Fatigue from Jump Bridges. I can understand trying to limit large Cap engagements, but Jump Fatigue will limit good fights in Null for everyone. |
SilentG
Tachyon Technologies inc Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:46:55 -
[6] - Quote
Come on.. are you going to get fatigued when using gates too? Im with Thorn... Get that **** away +1 |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
85
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 17:47:04 -
[7] - Quote
GET RID OF JUMP FATIGUE! or ... we BURN something!.......
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Alnir Terral
Tachyon Technologies inc Sanctuary Pact
1
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:48:32 -
[8] - Quote
Same here its daft +1 |
AllMappedOut
Ginnunga Industries Sanctuary Pact
1
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:51:29 -
[9] - Quote
Sigrig Bostan Alar wrote:At the very least, get rid of Jump Fatigue from Jump Bridges. I can understand trying to limit large Cap engagements, but Jump Fatigue from JB's will limit good fights in Null for everyone.
This I agree with. I'm very keen to see the changes that have been brought in by the limited movementof capitals, but jump bridges are a logistical device and help bring fleets together to actually fight. Without them, even your own space becomes remote and difficult to move around in. It will seriously limit engagement in fleets. |
Rounon Dax
Terra Nanotech Yulai Federation
3
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Posted - 2014.11.04 17:52:22 -
[10] - Quote
Remove the Jump Fatigue from Jump Bridges. It's absolutely ridiculous and stops good fights. |
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Shinya Shazih
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
14
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:03:25 -
[11] - Quote
Remove the Jump Fatigue from Jump Bridges.
Mashiekh of Tleilax - Director of Industry-á
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Zalas Outsorced
Desertus Caterva Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:03:27 -
[12] - Quote
I am right there with you Thorn. +1 |
Gotch Urarse
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
140
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 18:06:30 -
[13] - Quote
I agree Thorn, especially on jump bridges. Adds nothing but 'hurry up and wait'. |
Boomer Nakrar
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
2
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:12:06 -
[14] - Quote
+1 For Thorn proposition / JB fatigue is not good at all |
MSI Holder
MarSec Industries Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:38:29 -
[15] - Quote
+1 |
Adurai Shakrin
Deus lo Vult
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:42:36 -
[16] - Quote
Jump Bridges are just useless now, get rid of this |
Highfield
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
59
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 18:42:41 -
[17] - Quote
Remind me, 2 highsec empire connections and only one side of your sov linked to "hostile" Catch (of all places)? Please explain to me how badly your are going to be affected by fatigue in relation to the amount of whining in here (already)? |
republicov
treu republic Silent Infinity
1
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:42:48 -
[18] - Quote
+1 |
Highfield
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
59
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:48:35 -
[19] - Quote
SilentG wrote:Come on.. are you going to get fatigued when using gates too? Im with Thorn... Get that **** away +1
Ah the dreaded F1-drone provi member, not hindered by any knowledge of the game since the beginning of time.
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Lightbubble
Out-of-Space Fidelas Constans
3
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Posted - 2014.11.04 18:50:44 -
[20] - Quote
You want Content ? A Player-Created selfdriven envoiment? I think this is not the way throwing the "hammer of doom" to your customers.
In my opinion, dear gamedesigners: go back to your work; be more creative like this. It dosnt hurt reconsidering something that dosnt work correctly.
So +1 |
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
244
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 18:55:38 -
[21] - Quote
Lol at these n00B's. |
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
662
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 18:59:05 -
[22] - Quote
There is several points of view.
- Some at ccp might say remove jb as a whole. So from that pov this is stil la advantage - some say it s a jump ,and all jump actions get fatique - some say it hurts daily operations to much
Personally i feel the nerf was to kill the interstellar high way, and that there are indeed other ways too tackle jb use wiin a region. I already proposed:
- jb use within a region doesnt give fatique to subcaps - jb use within regions will gave delayed fatique, once and only if u enter jb metwork in another region - jb use gets a gate cooldown timer - jb cant connect systems that are in different regions
I hate the fact i form up in a system in my region and all fleet members that arrive here in staging by jb cant jb or take the bridge and miss the evening.
Within the csm not all share this view, as npc, low sec, and wh dwellers will say: about time, we have never had jb use.
For now ccp stands at, that this is jump use and adds to projection, hence gets fatique
I understand this is not what u guys want too hear, but hope it gives some insights in the thouggts, pro s and cons. And the divided pov. Ccp stated this is all a work in progress and impact needs to be assessed and might change, as with the bonus to fatique for jf.
Greetz core
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5517
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:00:13 -
[23] - Quote
No!
The Paradox
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vyshnegradsky
Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:02:14 -
[24] - Quote
Why is my coalition being stupid /me sighs.
These changes are one of the best things to happen to the game since I've started playing. Please learn to adjust.
This one's a bit over the edge guys.
Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.
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Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box
748
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:02:46 -
[25] - Quote
As you see, someone on the CSM has asked CCP to reconsider these changes.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Aivlis Eldelbar
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
42
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:09:37 -
[26] - Quote
I'd personally prefer jump bridges not giving fatigue, since they are huge static targets that can be incappacitated by reasonably-sized fleets. Nerf it's hitpoints if you want but let people use the networks they have put together and work hard to maintain.
On the other side, fatigue for shipboard jump drives seems to be working nicely. This is one of my favourite patches in quite some time and I cannot get behind this knee-jerk proposal. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
856
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:12:19 -
[27] - Quote
There are these things, there called "gates" you are allowed to use them instead of jump bridges you know.
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
856
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:13:38 -
[28] - Quote
There are these things called "gates" you are allowed to use them instead of jump bridges.
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
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Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
547
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:21:15 -
[29] - Quote
"CCP - My previous gameplay no longer works identically post patch. I demand that you change the game back to ENSURE I NEVER HAVE TO ADAPT?"
You guys all suck.
Especially you corebloodbrothers.
Quote:I hate the fact i form up in a system in my region and all fleet members that arrive here in staging by jb cant jb or take the bridge and miss the evening.
Then teach your grunts that they need to be at formup with zero fatigue, even if that means, shudder, using actual jumpgates.
In-region jump gate spam usage is just as much a problem as long distance multi-jump routes.
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Sho Menao
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
5
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Posted - 2014.11.04 19:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
We should not get rid of Fatigue for using JBs.
Some scenarios I'm thinking of:
1. A roaming fleet decides to enter a region and harass the locals. Without fatigue and a solid JB network, the locals can form up in the matter of minutes. They can then take a few more minutes to get to where the hostiles are and proceed to camp them into a pipe. This forces the hostiles to try to break the camp, usually involving attempting to warp off due to being heavily outnumbered and outgunned since the locals can move heavier ships more quickly than the hostiles can move light ships. The locals get to gank a few of the hostiles and no actual fight or content is created. It's likely the hostiles will bring an even lighter and faster comp next time to avoid confrontation and only search for ganks.
With fatigue from JBs, the locals will need to stage closer together or deploy in smaller numbers with a comparable doctrine to the hostiles. This has a much higher likelihood of creating an actual fight and would be beneficial to both sides.
2. Subcap logistics across the region with JBs before Phoebe was incredibly easy. You could clear a full region taking one or two actual gates, and if those were camped by hostiles you could always divert to another route to avoid getting caught. This leads again to a lack of content since there aren't ships in space along pipes for hostiles to catch. The JB fatigue will generate a greater number of ships taking said gates, leading to content for hostiles to catch them (or heaven forbid an escort fleet to engage the hostiles)
3. The hostiles bring in an actual fleet comp designed to engage the local fleet. They are looking for content and will regularly allow the locals to form up into a similar comp. Since they know they now can't get trapped as easily there will be more willingness from the hostile party to engage creating a greater chance for content.
TLDR; The only "content" lost by removing JB fatigue is that of the locals ganking a small hostile roam. It makes logistics for the locals slightly more tedious (oh no, I need to jump 8 jumps rather than 1). Anyone who wants to get rid of JB fatigue is a cowardly, risk-averse, girly-man (manly-girl?) |
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
715
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:42:02 -
[31] - Quote
Lol no, these changes are amazing. |
Dunkelschatten
VX9 Intergalactic Gaming Inc. Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:53:46 -
[32] - Quote
+1 |
Deckard S0L0
VX9 Intergalactic Gaming Inc. Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 19:55:53 -
[33] - Quote
+1 |
Nay Stigma
That Escalated Quickly Silent Infinity
803
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 20:12:57 -
[34] - Quote
Just make Jump Fatigue little less time, I have 30days to wait now. I mean really!!
Free Ts3 Hosting
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=158715&find=unread
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Pac Methusalah
Marauding Tinkers Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 20:28:06 -
[35] - Quote
+1 Thorn |
Travis Uchonela
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
25
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 20:32:51 -
[36] - Quote
Check out this posting CTA.
The jump bridge changes are great. GG CCP. |
Torx Sigma
Out-of-Space Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 20:44:46 -
[37] - Quote
corbexx wrote:There are these things, there called "gates" you are allowed to use them instead of jump bridges you know.
Thats the most non profession answer in this thread. You are a wh guy... no wondering that you are not interested in.
So fu mr wh csm. |
Gecko Runner Hareka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:04:55 -
[38] - Quote
AllMappedOut wrote:This I agree with. I'm very keen to see the changes that have been brought in by the limited movement of capitals, but jump bridges are a logistical device and help bring fleets together to actually fight. Without them, even your own space becomes remote and difficult to move around in. It will seriously limit engagement in fleets.
Ideas and Thoughts:
@PlayerCollaboration: It really, really hinders it - I feel like I can't be there for my mates when they need me fast. That really is bad for motivation.
@Jumpbridges: I mean this totally invalidates JBs - why would someone really keep a network of them when you cannot use them like the highway you built. If I want to go through gates alone, I can do that in high sec.
@Bonus4usingGates: Or give people back time when they use gates... the more they use gates, the faster fatigue gets removed... or anything.
@Reduce 5 min penalty: feels far too long, should be half or less.
@Asymmetrical Warfare: Most of the corps holding space are the underdogs against the large blocks - JBs are an advantage for holders that can be argued with their better knowledge of the space they own... the changes took this away... I feel that now, instead of forming, smaller groups will just hug statins and POSes and this will kill content, not generate it.
Just my 5 unsorted thoughts. |
SwagYolo420
Vertical Rebirth
65
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:11:14 -
[39] - Quote
REMOVE REMOVE |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5517
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:16:19 -
[40] - Quote
Torx Sigma wrote:corbexx wrote:There are these things, there called "gates" you are allowed to use them instead of jump bridges you know. Thats the most non profession answer in this thread. You are a wh guy... no wondering that you are not interested in. So fu mr wh csm. Non-CSM member and non-wormhole resident, but a professional; I must reply with the answer of no.
The Paradox
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Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite. Pandemic Legion
39
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:20:57 -
[41] - Quote
Ok, what's with all this whining? There's been so much groupthink asking for nerfs to jumping and power projection over the past 2-3 years and now that it finally happens you complain again? The way CCP has made it now is great, there's nothing to change really. Welcome to Jump Jail, where even thinking about jumping in any way gives you fatigue, as it should be. You guys should just chill out, learn to take gates again and enjoy the ride. We promise we'll be gentle. It's gonna be glorious. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
36
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:23:28 -
[42] - Quote
I think I found my new place to grind for tears. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5518
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:24:37 -
[43] - Quote
"Nerf them! Buff me!"
The Paradox
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
7054
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:27:09 -
[44] - Quote
Don't mind ol' Doc, just came by to upgrade a few tear buckets to barrels.
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
856
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:30:06 -
[45] - Quote
Torx Sigma wrote:corbexx wrote:There are these things, there called "gates" you are allowed to use them instead of jump bridges you know. Thats the most non profession answer in this thread. You are a wh guy... no wondering that you are not interested in. So fu mr wh csm.
Probably as professional as saying fu, But lets continue.
The issue is most of you (especially provi people) were using jump bridges as a day to day commodity. like hey i need to get some mods they are 3 jumps away do I do 3 jumps or 1 jump bridge, you literally used them for everything.
Now you need to use them as a strategic resource, you'll have to think do i want to save time now getting them mods when its only 3 gates away by using a jump bridge since it might affect me later. You can't use them for everything you will now have topick and choose what you use them for.
You guys will adapt I'm sure ;)
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
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Black Canary Jnr
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
125
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:33:47 -
[46] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before. CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships. Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.
Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.
Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.
Wrong.
Pre-patch providence was ********, people would just up ship enemy gangs and use the jump bridge network to corner them in. Most people used JBs to get around in 0.0, there was no gameplay to be had in 0.0 as a result.
Now you can still up ship people but you only have 1 shot to do it, or you can go out and outplay them in fast ships. Now 0.0 will actually traveled be through, opening up opportunities to attack logistics and bad players. Now you can go on the offence and not get wiped 10 minutes after taking a cruiser gang into a region by a defence gang from the other side of the region.
If you want to be viable as a defence force it means that you have a standing fleet running, something that provi is terrible at. It's painful to see Provi-bloccers complaining like this. Get with the changes, make the adjustments, develop tactics, stop being **** at FCing and relying on JBs.
+1 on Vyshs comment about Provi being stupid. |
Pac Methusalah
Marauding Tinkers Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:37:01 -
[47] - Quote
making this thing applicable to jump bridges needs to be changed promptly. The whole thing is hard to understand and it is pretty boring having to sit somewhere after jumping through a JB. +1 |
Resaec Fitsuga
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
2
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:38:31 -
[48] - Quote
+1
I think the nerf hits jump bridges too hard as they are or were a means for daily traveling and convenience that added to the quality of life in Sov Null. I can understand the viewpoint held by many in CCP that jump bridges are a jump but I would suggest a special modifier for the Mass of a ship so that large ships like Titans, Carriers or Dreads using a jump bridge still get the same or perhaps greater penalty for using them but smaller ships that are meant to be mobile like the Interceptor receive a significantly smaller penalty.
Does anyone find that to be more acceptable? |
Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite. Pandemic Legion
40
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:42:53 -
[49] - Quote
Resaec Fitsuga wrote:+1
I think the nerf hits jump bridges too hard as they are or were a means for daily traveling and convenience that added to the quality of life in Sov Null. I can understand the viewpoint held by many in CCP that jump bridges are a jump but I would suggest a special modifier for the Mass of a ship so that large ships like Titans, Carriers or Dreads using a jump bridge still get the same or perhaps greater penalty for using them but smaller ships that are meant to be mobile like the Interceptor receive a significantly smaller penalty.
Does anyone find that to be more acceptable?
So to quote Marlona, "nerf them, buff us". |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1828
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 21:42:57 -
[50] - Quote
Wow, one day and already the complaints.
No. I won't ask them to remove fatigue from JB's.
But then I am a hisec carebear CSM. You failed to be specific in the OP as to who you were asking.
The point was to limit power projection, tell me how that limit would work IF JB's were not included in the plan. I (and other CSMs) fought to get JF's and Blops a bit of a relaxation of the fatigue. And managed to convince CCP to consider it but we do not take every request forward. Sometimes because we have fought that battle already, other times because it is a dumb idea and counter to the proposed goals.
I'll let you decide why I am not taking this one up.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Suddenly Spaceships.
1677
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:01:28 -
[51] - Quote
One Direktion
"Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."
-Arydanika, Voices from the Void
Hero of the CSM
Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com
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Lucius Avenus
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
3
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:02:24 -
[52] - Quote
TL;DR wasting my time.
I think the tedium is the problem, specifically, the lost time, real-life time. I haven't been around for ages like some people, but small gangs don't seem to be what FCs hunt, and it doesn't look like anyone's gonna form up an especially large fleet to especially blob a small gang, gangs like that get pasted by large fleets as incidental snacks - not always, cos sometimes there's nothing big in Providence to meet. I don't know what other places are like... but in Providence, small gangs pulled the brakes off the **** train well enough as it was (it seemed to me) ... and plenty make it out alive with loot. And good on em.
Small gangs in North provi sometimes get a comparable gang to meet them, usually formed by whoever is in system or next door, and do gangs say in local Oh we'll let you form up some comparable gang? Not much, I haven't seen that very much. Has happened, even one on ones, but gah not much... It's kinda "o7" but most gangs (defenders/interlopers) are out to cut throats, scoop corpses - not hang about - they cut through, blap whatever, n run.
We went rapeyroamy in Catch, and got blitzed really nicely by BNI, we were in snipey cormies, they in extra snipey Phantasms - it was great!! I didn't expect, and never do expect to come home alive, so do people want to just not die or something when they go a-raiding? And how many times have i set foot out of Providence n BLAP, oh I'm in station (le sigh again), can't cry about that... cos it's funny.
I don't mind ripping off the big girl's blouse to adapt, but on friendly/own turf, with assets like JBs, isn't it a little weird to make all that setup periodically irrelevant? or at least problematic, and tedious? And what do we do if as the interloper, hardly anyone shows up cos they're miles away, and couldn't form up quickly enough nor could catch us up via their JBs? I mean the interloper is already formed, why hamper defenders? Oh! We'll just wait there for you hahaha, fa sure fa sure. Is the problem a little deeper than some suspect?
Quite frankly, the problem that is biggest, is my time. Some say EVE is a boring game, there is waiting, and it does get boring, this just makes thing's a little more boring. hehe, this is a game of waiting really, and one needs patience, but fatigue is already fatiguing. If I find I have to sit and watch a timer or go yolo into whatever... Y'know?
Jump clones and staging systems are great for avoiding desync'd fatigue timers, but you can only jump once per day (basicallyo r every nineteen hours or whatevs), and if the pod express station isn't some kind of trade hub, or if there isn't one closish, and if you didn't foresee a big fight where you would have had stacks of stuff to reship into, and you can't make effective use of JBs to get the ships or mods you would need to reship, let alone get back to the fight, then no more big great big fun epic fights? Just dudes dribbling in from whoopwhoop? Are we all expected to run the clockwork orange like RnK, for a bit of the old ultra via uber-timed impeccability re what was simple logistical organistion (and that on friendly turf)? now it's a hassle. Problem.
Fari enouigh, I agree with some things ppl have said about adapting, and that small, interloping gangs might actually get a bit more bang for the possible pod express, but this just bores me. This is lost time. Fleets take long enough... This gargles the dog's nuts.
Phoebe is a goddess for everything but this... really like the SQueue change, and the container searches, and heaps more stuff, but please reconsider fatigue... zzzZZZzzzZZZzzz
Imma go brush my bronies hair now n cry.
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Deofil Corvo
VX9 Intergalactic Gaming Inc. Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:06:54 -
[53] - Quote
+1 for sure
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Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
466
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:09:05 -
[54] - Quote
When I first started EVE, some U-MAD guys thought me that:
Remember whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the right response is
Thank You CCP, may we please have another?
Oh yes, a harder game! MORE PLEASE.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
New Order Diplomat, contact me for all your New Order enquiries!
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Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box
749
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:12:18 -
[55] - Quote
I'm not quite sure how a group so large and depdent on teleportation missed the anouncements.
first teleportation dev blog Teleportation Forum Thread updated dev blog after feedback
Hopefully this will help people cover ground they have missed on the changes.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Travis Uchonela
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
26
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Posted - 2014.11.04 22:26:56 -
[56] - Quote
Sanctuary Pact, more like Saduary pact, amirite? |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
78
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 22:32:50 -
[57] - Quote
corbexx wrote:The issue is most of you (especially provi people) were using jump bridges as a day to day commodity. like hey i need to get some mods they are 3 jumps away do I do 3 jumps or 1 jump bridge, you literally used them for everything.
How long until we can get buildable stargates of JB range that don't give fatigue, even if everyone can use them? |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2663
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 22:57:50 -
[58] - Quote
Use gates, stop whinning
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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The Hamilton
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
77
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Posted - 2014.11.04 23:05:32 -
[59] - Quote
So many delicious nullbear tears in here. |
Dwissi
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
81
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Posted - 2014.11.04 23:15:37 -
[60] - Quote
Come on - seriously? You started a thread for just that - after we had a several 100 postings for this already in the announcement threads? And you dont even try to get adjusted? Just - wow. CCP you obviously really did the right thing
Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins
Before someone complains again: grr everyone
Greed is the death of loyalty
|
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
41
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 23:21:20 -
[61] - Quote
Remove the jump bridges, problem solved.
GòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉ
-áDominique Vasilkovsky
GòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉ
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Random VX9
VX9 Intergalactic Gaming Inc. Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 00:26:49 -
[62] - Quote
I also agree, while i do not like but can understand my ship getting fatigue when i warp. i just dont see how a jump bridge can make me fatigue'd.+1 |
Lucius Avenus
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
3
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 00:35:03 -
[63] - Quote
Dwissi wrote:Come on - seriously? You started a thread for just that - after we had a several 100 postings for this already in the announcement threads? And you dont even try to get adjusted? Just - wow. CCP you obviously really did the right thing
Someone actually making a good point! wow!!
I guess I liked the big fights thing, and we'll see less of that. Could've paid attention earlier, (as though it would have mattered hahahaha) but is that input precluded as of now? And I find it hard to believe that noone in Providence had no idea it was coming and didn't participate in announcement forums? Might be worth a snoop? ^ TBH I personally missed the fatigue thing. So tuff :)
But, Providence is a bit different, and so what if we're kind of inbred about JBs? We provide content. :) and we did that via JBs :) And yes, how else could we be everywhere ganking or dying? I mean srsly... You know why u come. try find somewhere like it... hopefully, we will in what next year? I can see CCP's direction, and that looks pretty good to me, but I know I won't be in fleet as much. Bugger being stranded cos I'm fatigued.
In the end, I really would like to see the rest of null a bit like Providence, dynamic, alive, hands on for everyone, instead of idk "dead"? And the new space race might not get so full of itself with the larger alliances coalitions etc.. especially if they get stripped down a bit in the meantime - looks like a plan. he.he.he.
blablablablablalupblahTLDRblablahblablaupblahblah thanks for the entertaining snipes, really quite funny xD "Saduary Pact" I lold
For Goats 7o
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Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
229
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 01:21:26 -
[64] - Quote
Came to read the tears. Was not disappointed. |
DuQuense
Sunrise Social Club Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 01:32:07 -
[65] - Quote
+1 for Thorn's comment. Jump Fatigue only inhibits game enjoyment. |
dalgard
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 01:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
i could be wrong ,and i could be paranoid ,but i have seen ccp make decisions that make no sence ,unless!!! you are willing to accept the possibility that ccp wants to make cap fleets more vlaunrablr to ganking ,and delay incomming reenforcements ,in whitch case jump fatigue makes sence but i feel it will chase away players who will come to believe that eve has become a killer game with no way to win ,in whitch case put the game devs on kos,if they keep getting ganked maby it will wake some up ,in the event some game devs are reading this i say if it aint broke don't fix it!!! |
Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box
754
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 01:50:04 -
[67] - Quote
dalgard wrote:i could be wrong ,and i could be paranoid ,but i have seen ccp make decisions that make no sence ,unless!!! you are willing to accept the possibility that ccp wants to make cap fleets more vlaunrablr to ganking ,and delay incomming reenforcements ,in whitch case jump fatigue makes sence but i feel it will chase away players who will come to believe that eve has become a killer game with no way to win ,in whitch case put the game devs on kos,if they keep getting ganked maby it will wake some up ,in the event some game devs are reading this i say if it aint broke don't fix it!!!
I am glad you understand. Teleportation was broken. That is why it has been fixed. In fact, CCP does want to create new vulnerabilities and limit the distance that people can cross in a blink of an eye. Above, I linked the relevant dev blogs. If you are a resident of Provi, I am sure that Core can sit down with you and explain to ad nauseum the reasons these chances have come to the game as well as some of the potential changes that may come to sov null in the foreseeable future.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5525
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 02:32:30 -
[68] - Quote
I get this feeling that some Provi FC accidentally had the entire coalition max out their jump fatigue chasing a three man battlecruiser gang across the entire region using their jump bridges.
The Paradox
|
Jin So
Sev3rance
18
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 03:02:59 -
[69] - Quote
I, for one support CCP's idea of the jump fatigue. |
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
229
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 03:32:16 -
[70] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I get this feeling that some Provi FC accidentally had the entire coalition max out their jump fatigue chasing a three man battlecruiser gang across the entire region using their jump bridges. Pretty much this. All null became was a capblobfest, it just makes sense that they should be limited in some way, rather than unlimited jump properties. |
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Blackfin Arbosa
Blackstone Holdings Sev3rance
26
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 03:34:28 -
[71] - Quote
Holy crap not even 24 hours in and you are crying like a baby. Also there were dev blogs, threads and the test server weeks in advance to the changes. Adapt or die. |
Blackfin Arbosa
Blackstone Holdings Sev3rance
26
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 03:41:32 -
[72] - Quote
Lucius Avenus wrote: Bugger being stranded cos I'm fatigued.
Don't jump so much...
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Blackfin Arbosa
Blackstone Holdings Sev3rance
26
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 03:45:21 -
[73] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote: It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before.
Can I get your evidence in the form of a graph or table? I am sure you have some to long term statistical data to back up this statement.
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Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1834
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 04:42:48 -
[74] - Quote
If they didn't realize the fatigue, maybe they didn't get the rest of the message either.
You are not stranded/stuck
Take a gate, honest . . . they work.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
|
SEVISGEN
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 05:50:16 -
[75] - Quote
Why are people acting surprised by these changes its not like they haven't been discussed numerous times in several venues. |
Sbrodor
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
34
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 06:13:49 -
[76] - Quote
fatigue is good for jump ships.
loading hours and hours of fatigue with a intie scouting via JB is frustrating. I think we spend (and spended) most of the time to warp left and right than doing good fight (in subcap).
the poor scout are super bored to burn left and right.... |
Arbius V'Talik
VX9 Intergalactic Gaming Inc. Sanctuary Pact
26
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 06:21:05 -
[77] - Quote
Black Canary Jnr wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before. CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships. Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.
Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.
Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.
Wrong. Pre-patch providence was ********, people would just up ship enemy gangs and use the jump bridge network to corner them in. Most people used JBs to get around in 0.0, there was no gameplay to be had in 0.0 as a result. Now you can still up ship people but you only have 1 shot to do it, or you can go out and outplay them in fast ships. Now 0.0 will actually traveled be through, opening up opportunities to attack logistics and bad players. Now you can go on the offence and not get wiped 10 minutes after taking a cruiser gang into a region by a defence gang from the other side of the region. If you want to be viable as a defence force it means that you have a standing fleet running, something that provi is terrible at. It's painful to see Provi-bloccers complaining like this. Get with the changes, make the adjustments, develop tactics, stop being **** at FCing and relying on JBs. +1 on Vyshs comment about Provi being stupid.
I like the changes, should shake things up enough to bring change in New Eden.
Keep jump fatigue for JBs.
-Arb |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
865
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 07:03:08 -
[78] - Quote
Lucius Avenus wrote: But, Providence is a bit different, and so what if we're kind of inbred about JBs? We provide content. :) and we did that via JBs :) And yes, how else could we be everywhere ganking or dying? I mean srsly... You know why u come. try find somewhere like it... hopefully, we will in what next year? I can see CCP's direction, and that looks pretty good to me, but I know I won't be in fleet as much. Bugger being stranded cos I'm fatigued.
Marlona Sky wrote:"Nerf them! Buff me!"
^^ Nail -----> head
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
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Konrad Kane
109
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 07:55:22 -
[79] - Quote
Fatigue has made Eve feel like a vast piece of space and not a small neighborhood you can hop across in seconds.
I like the change. |
eniux
gaming is not a crime The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 08:34:43 -
[80] - Quote
Remove JB, make them player owned stargates that only allow subcaps to travel through. |
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NotTheSmartestCookie
New Order Logistics CODE.
63
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 08:56:21 -
[81] - Quote
Open overview settings -> tab presets -> Types -> Celestial -> make sure the checkbox for "Stargate" has been selected.
you'll probably want to post these instructions in Corp and/or Alliance mail, so other pilots can also regain their freedom of movement! |
Boltorano
Devious Chemicals
99
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 09:35:17 -
[82] - Quote
Nay Stigma wrote:Just make Jump Fatigue little less time, I have 30days to wait now. I mean really!!
I can understand not following every dev blog / forum thread, but you really should learn to at least read patch notes. |
Excoecaria Agallocha
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 09:57:18 -
[83] - Quote
+1 Jump Bridges giving fatigue is a bit silly. If I can only jump a couple times through bridges before having to use gates, I'm not much better off than the hostile forces that can't use the JB network... |
Gosti Kahanid
GANOR Deep Space Explorers GANOR INC.
67
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 10:16:25 -
[84] - Quote
How about a 50% fatigue when using a Jumpbridge. With this you would still build ab fatigue, but at a slower rate. With this you still try to avoid using it to much, but are not as penalised as now.
|
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
638
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 10:48:31 -
[85] - Quote
These changes are long past due and a breath of fresh air.
If your not prepared to even try to meet the challenge but have to crawl to the forums and cry about it as a default response I have no sympathy.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
364
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 11:38:51 -
[86] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before. CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships. Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.
Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.
Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.
Jesus Christ on a bike!
The nerfs to OP power projection nerf benefits Providence more than any other region. Most provi pilots are happy that every bored blue donut pet can't just 3rd Party every Provibloc fight at the drop of a hat anymore, or hotdrop every ratter that dares to undock, and here you all are whining.
You do realise that in order to nerf travel time, it's actually necessary to nerf travel time right?
You're an embarrassment to your coalition, please stop posting.
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution
364
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 12:31:24 -
[87] - Quote
SEVISGEN wrote:Why are people acting surprised by these changes its not like they haven't been discussed numerous times in several venues.
including provi forums
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
|
Niding
CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club
41
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 13:02:09 -
[88] - Quote
Langbaobao wrote:Ok, what's with all this whining? There's been so much groupthink asking for nerfs to jumping and power projection over the past 2-3 years and now that it finally happens you complain again? The way CCP has made it now is great, there's nothing to change really. Welcome to Jump Jail, where even thinking about jumping in any way gives you fatigue, as it should be. You guys should just chill out, learn to take gates again and enjoy the ride. We promise we'll be gentle. It's gonna be glorious.
+1
Finally the EVE universe gets some scale back. Not sure whats to complain about. Back in 2006 we had warp to 10, and had to use bookmarks to get directly to gate. Jumpfreighters? Wuts that? etc
Even being able to use jumpbridges once in a while is a massive advantage. Yes you have to plan it a little better. Even scout a little!
I remember when Ricingstar built my Avatar in X6 back in the days. He solo hauled all the minerals with a bunch of freighters with jumpbridges from Esa-YMP-R3-X6 with impunity. While it made me a happy camper, it was faaaar to easy to get done. Maybe this have something to do with the supercapital prolification in the game? Should be easier in the future to gank us some freighters hauling in 0.0.
TLDR; Best patch in ages. |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space Sanctuary Pact
88
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 13:09:50 -
[89] - Quote
I am ok with the jump fatigue on capitals. But putting them on jumpbridges was one step too much. Even stops the sub capital ships from getting to the fights. This was supposed to change power projection with capitals, not power projection with subcapitals, or am i mistaken there?
Remove the fatigue from jumpbrifges |
Niding
CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club
42
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 13:21:12 -
[90] - Quote
Yes, it was a POWER PROJECTION nerf.
That includes both capitals and subcapitals. Take Providence. Can do a full fleet on a normal day? 2-3 full fleets on a OMG ALL HANDS ON DECK CTA CTA. This will steamroll most groups in the game when you count out capitals. Will you let the "AFK empires" that base out of X system/Region be able to control several regions with impunity? "Lolz, a small group is sieging our system 2 regions away, lets form up and run the bridges". 5 minutes later you nuke those poor suckers." Doesnt sound very fair now does it?
Yes, the bigger coalitions can still field capital support, but they will actually have to think about how and when they do it. Pre-patch you pretty much had to flip the coin wether or not the skirmish group you engage would pop a cyno if you managed to pin them down. Now the odds are; they are not.
Likewise; In Providence pre-patch, If you get a few systems in; you are pretty much guarrenteed to have people coming from every corner converging on your position within minutes=slaughter. Post patch: Sov owners actually have to make a coherent fleet and give the hostiles a fair chance with scout usage. Scouts pre-patch for skrimish fleets where close to worthless due to the jumpbridges. It was more a russian roulette kinda deal. |
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Gaeellron Aideron
Desertus Caterva Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 15:15:09 -
[91] - Quote
+1 |
Jean Luc Lemmont
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 15:18:50 -
[92] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:"Nerf them! Buff me!"
Paper's fine, nerf rock. ~Scissors
A bitter vet trying to start anew.
|
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5563
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 17:11:48 -
[93] - Quote
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:"Nerf them! Buff me!" Paper's fine, nerf rock. ~Scissors
The Paradox
|
durka S
Desertus Caterva Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 18:43:38 -
[94] - Quote
Agree with other posters here that it compromises the usefulness of especially jumpbridge networks. |
Contract Wench
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 20:49:28 -
[95] - Quote
One carebear alliance can't be bothered to read dev blogs, threads or patch notes. Socked when the world changes and they can't jump freighters full of ore all day long . Quit being terrible. |
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
664
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 08:10:30 -
[96] - Quote
Lallante wrote:"CCP - My previous gameplay no longer works identically post patch. I demand that you change the game back to ENSURE I NEVER HAVE TO ADAPT?" You guys all suck. Especially you corebloodbrothers. Quote:I hate the fact i form up in a system in my region and all fleet members that arrive here in staging by jb cant jb or take the bridge and miss the evening. Then teach your grunts that they need to be at formup with zero fatigue, even if that means, shudder, using actual jumpgates, jump clones, multiple form-up locations or whatever. In-region jump gate spam usage is just as much a problem as long distance multi-jump routes.
easy to say someone sucks when u havent read or quote it whole. i am not saying it should change , just gave a historic insights in POV, as player and provi fc, it makes my life less easy, doesnt mean it should be rolled back. U can asses if it achieves what u wanted. Its to early for that. For now i see less activity and people logging of instead of playing. I also see adapt.
Its gona be intresting to keep track of kills and logins, jb use, fuel prices and so on. I also stated WH, low sec and NPC never had a bridge. However living in null shoudl have advantages, else u can stage from high sec. Then again its more a way of live then a risk assesment. CCP does monitor so much, and making bold choices. even more so too come, u will see.boudn to be more tears.
For now i see a decrease in incomming reds too my region, more security, and a possibility to clear red assets. how this will evolve in time, remains to be seen. We do go out more, more small ship fleets to travel ground quick. PL stabbed no tank ceptors last night, hilarious btw.
also in the greater plan, noone can deny hopefully that phoebe shook things up, even when it wasnt release NULL was more alive then in ages cause of its arrival. And this is just a start, so much more too come ;)
nice to see how many jb will be anchored in a few months, how much less cap jumps, fuel price drops, and so on. Also cost price on a cyno jammer, jb, upgrades, call it dumb, i call it pov, and dont forget , there s 14 csm, with often different opiions. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
873
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 10:31:47 -
[97] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Lallante wrote:"CCP - My previous gameplay no longer works identically post patch. I demand that you change the game back to ENSURE I NEVER HAVE TO ADAPT?" You guys all suck. Especially you corebloodbrothers. Quote:I hate the fact i form up in a system in my region and all fleet members that arrive here in staging by jb cant jb or take the bridge and miss the evening. Then teach your grunts that they need to be at formup with zero fatigue, even if that means, shudder, using actual jumpgates, jump clones, multiple form-up locations or whatever. In-region jump gate spam usage is just as much a problem as long distance multi-jump routes. easy to say someone sucks when u havent read or quote it whole. i am not saying it should change , just gave a historic insights in POV, as player and provi fc, it makes my life less easy, doesnt mean it should be rolled back. U can asses if it achieves what u wanted. Its to early for that. For now i see less activity and people logging of instead of playing. I also see adapt. Its gona be intresting to keep track of kills and logins, jb use, fuel prices and so on. I also stated WH, low sec and NPC never had a bridge. However living in null shoudl have advantages, else u can stage from high sec. Then again its more a way of live then a risk assesment. CCP does monitor so much, and making bold choices. even more so too come, u will see.boudn to be more tears. For now i see a decrease in incomming reds too my region, more security, and a possibility to clear red assets. how this will evolve in time, remains to be seen. We do go out more, more small ship fleets to travel ground quick. PL stabbed no tank ceptors last night, hilarious btw. also in the greater plan, noone can deny hopefully that phoebe shook things up, even when it wasnt release NULL was more alive then in ages cause of its arrival. And this is just a start, so much more too come ;) nice to see how many jb will be anchored in a few months, how much less cap jumps, fuel price drops, and so on. Also cost price on a cyno jammer, jb, upgrades, call it dumb, i call it pov, and dont forget , there s 14 csm, with often different opiions.
I'm sure more people will becoming provi don't worry.
as for advantages in null you have jump bridges you just cant use them willy nilly, good change +1
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better
|
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
176
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 16:39:38 -
[98] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before. CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships. Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.
Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.
Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.
I love the jump fatigue. Its great. |
Luwc
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
281
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 08:32:19 -
[99] - Quote
sanctuary.-
are you guys renters lol ?
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1414
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 12:33:30 -
[100] - Quote
This power projection nerf is one of the best change ever in this game.
The Tears Must Flow
|
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Perseu
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 13:12:43 -
[101] - Quote
This new jump Fatigue thing will kill a bit more what goes on in fleet ops and in general the objective of the infrastructures created by alliances and corps in low/null sec.
I agree with Thorn. This is a very bad move. |
Elvira EZ
VX9 Intergalactic Gaming Inc. Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 14:32:19 -
[102] - Quote
I agree with removing the jump fatige from jump bridges, that was an overkill thing to do. +1 |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8954
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 16:30:20 -
[103] - Quote
I don't mind the Jump fatigue. i don't mind the reduction in jump range.
Doing both at the same time is not so good in my opinion. It's using a sledgehammer on something that requires a scalpel. Jump Fatigue alone would have slowed down the large alliances enough.
As it is, null is more of a pain to live in now, you don't open up a section fo space to new people by making it a pain to get to. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2667
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 00:59:15 -
[104] - Quote
guess its time to find out where Sanctuary pact lives
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
51
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 01:36:43 -
[105] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/uA0ZcTT.png |
Herr Nerdstrom
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 15:27:49 -
[106] - Quote
This is by far the worst change CCP has ever made to the game. Furthermore, there is no real explanation of why it was done aside from CCP Greyscale chuckling as he indulges in obvious CCP groupthink about the evils of hot drops. Exempting the impacts to combat cap ships for the moment, the jump fatigue change entirely destroys the ability of players to stock the 0.0 market. I acknowledge that CCP has been trying, in vain, since the original launch to find a way to create or force 0.0 inhabitants to manufacture in 0.0, but it hasn't happened since then and I don't see it happening now. This change basically makes 0.0 worthless.
-4 accounts. |
Dan Sun
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 20:23:18 -
[107] - Quote
Im having to agree this is a bad change that will drop many subsciptions |
Lykouleon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1456
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 21:22:27 -
[108] - Quote
I completely agree that the current state of jump fatigue is a limiter on actual 'fun,' but for christ sake people you had plenty of time to contribute to the discussion before it was implemented.
Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
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D4rk f0g
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
23
|
Posted - 2014.11.09 02:24:23 -
[109] - Quote
This is a good thread. |
JSSix
CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club
7
|
Posted - 2014.11.09 14:13:18 -
[110] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:guess its time to find out where Sanctuary pact lives
Providence :) |
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Niding
CRY.NET Nihilists Social Club
49
|
Posted - 2014.11.09 14:18:39 -
[111] - Quote
JSSix wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:guess its time to find out where Sanctuary pact lives
Providence :)
Aye, tho SOVless alliance. Semi amusing that they complain when they dont even own or pay for jumpbridges. I guess its what happens when you get spoilt. |
Sammlers
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.09 19:14:15 -
[112] - Quote
Agreed, makes JB hard to work with fatigue. +1 |
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
664
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 07:31:24 -
[113] - Quote
Its a habbit, or addiction. Wormholers, noc null and low sec dudes never have nor had them. Attackers cant use them either. Almost to bad they werent removed. Woudl have been a clear detox. As a fc i hate it for local defense and fleet forming, but a few ceptors fix that. Travel with less fatique trough a bridge i use my badger now, can jump alot. |
Luwc
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
290
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 09:07:02 -
[114] - Quote
dude. CSM is like the US Congress.
Most useless group ever.
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
|
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
664
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 07:39:55 -
[115] - Quote
Luwc wrote:dude. CSM is like the US Congress.
Most useless group ever.
Easy thing to say when you dont back it up. If ever csm9 is involved heavily in alot of the content you guys are receiving. Often direclty consulted on changes that matter too you all and ideas. Wether its changes for jf from rigs t low slots, wh spawn, fatique bonus on indies, blink , numbercrunching, promoting eve, pi in null sec by all, and also nifty stuff like a linkable ovrview is a csm push, not to mention the changes too cloning for which all the null sec csm-ers asked and pushed, and got for you all. There is more , but i hooe these examples can give a a befter insight in a csm. And if u like ot get into depths, next time u feel we useless, dont hesitate to poke me, i ll give you my ts details and we can have a chat, thtas more efficient |
Sara Adoulin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 08:19:14 -
[116] - Quote
One thing that always irked me about capital ship operation was the seeming requirement for every super pilot to have a cyno alt for even the most routine (if there even is such a thing for a super) travel.
Basic thought-process would tell me that the cyno alt "requirement" is no longer as much of a case? Since jumping is now such a rare and hot commodity? |
uziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
15
|
Posted - 2014.11.14 22:36:13 -
[117] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Luwc wrote:dude. CSM is like the US Congress.
Most useless group ever. Easy thing to say when you dont back it up. If ever csm9 is involved heavily in alot of the content you guys are receiving. Often direclty consulted on changes that matter too you all and ideas. Wether its changes for jf from rigs t low slots, wh spawn, fatique bonus on indies, blink , numbercrunching, promoting eve, pi in null sec by all, and also nifty stuff like a linkable ovrview is a csm push, not to mention the changes too cloning for which all the null sec csm-ers asked and pushed, and got for you all. There is more , but i hooe these examples can give a a befter insight in a csm. And if u like ot get into depths, next time u feel we useless, dont hesitate to poke me, i ll give you my ts details and we can have a chat, thtas more efficient
I'll believe it when I see fatigue on jb's scaled to something manageable or removed. As it stands even movement within one's own territory is a hassle. Much less getting anywhere else in a reasonable time.
From the formless void's gaping maw, there springs an entity.-á Not an entity such as any you can conceive of, nor I; an entity more primordial than the elements themselves. In its wake there will follow a storm, as the appetite of nothing expands over the world. The Prophecy is true. Grayscale has come.
|
Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
3
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 06:27:34 -
[118] - Quote
Sara Adoulin wrote:One thing that always irked me about capital ship operation was the seeming requirement for every super pilot to have a cyno alt for even the most routine (if there even is such a thing for a super) travel.
Basic thought-process would tell me that the cyno alt "requirement" is no longer as much of a case? Since jumping is now such a rare and hot commodity?
Exactly. You no longer need an alt. Now you can blindly fly your capital ships from gate to gate. |
Alice Compton
SUPERFLUOUS WANDERLUST Gentlemen's.Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 20:24:31 -
[119] - Quote
Jump fatiuge and jump ranges are fine they way they are now .
you guys just need to think of caps in a diffrent way . take them thru gates .
who needs Jb if they can burning to staging with a ceptor .
fyi carriers warps faster than Bs so if u take a Bs thru gate why not take a carrier .
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Lugia3
The Southern Gentleman's Social Club Easily Excited
1370
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 20:10:51 -
[120] - Quote
Nope, want to drop superwaffe on some solo dread hitting a pos in Sinq Laison all the way from Oasa? Deploy there.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov!
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10764
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 22:00:38 -
[121] - Quote
Honestly surprised to be the first one posting this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoyvvEWHodk
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Miranda Katarn
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 05:27:38 -
[122] - Quote
+1 |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2726
|
Posted - 2014.12.03 05:28:34 -
[123] - Quote
+ 10 interwebz
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
|
Zurin Arctus
Trauma Ward
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 03:17:58 -
[124] - Quote
Funny how a couple salty hotdropping alliances are trying to astroturf threads like this into relevance. Are you guys so stymied by your inability to bridge everywhere that the only other thing you can think to do is launch forum ops?
The changes were needed, and most of the coalitions like them. Sometimes EVE requires that you adjust your play style. |
Alexi Ares
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 20:38:00 -
[125] - Quote
The whole point of this is to make it harder to move ANY fleet around. To make you spread your forces out more to defend the same territory. How many alliances actually use every system they claim sov to? How many have almost no presence other than the TCUs? I have been in null and most players use jump bridges as a crutch in null. I am not saying this is bad per se, but I am saying that given the choice most use the jump bridge network for day to day traffic. That made the game a LOT easier than it was probably intended to be. I mean there was no real need to even go into some of the systems that the alliances have sov over. I can even get using some of them as a buffer zone for defense purposes, but that really has no meaning if no one is there to spot the roam. I think that add fatigue to both caps and JBs was a good choice. It will make alliances have to pick and choose where the station fleets. Now instead of 1 massive fleet, you may have 3 or 4 (talking a mid sized alliance here, large alliances may get into the teens on numbers of fleets) fleets stationed at different points in your territory for defense. This should make for much more interesting combat as opposed to you dumping everything you can find on short notice on any roam. |
AngelAUT
Gesellschaft mit beschraenkter Haftung Synergy of Steel
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 12:38:15 -
[126] - Quote
bridges useless black ops bs useless remove it. |
Erasmus Grant
EVE University Ivy League
9
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 04:08:02 -
[127] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:When I first started EVE, some U-MAD guys thought me that:
Remember whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the right response is
Thank You CCP, may we please have another?
Oh yes, a harder game! MORE PLEASE.
I love you. |
Miniemoo
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 20:40:15 -
[128] - Quote
+ 1
Now this a PVP barrier |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
2200
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:12:23 -
[129] - Quote
Miniemoo wrote:+ 1
Now this a PVP barrier
I disagree, there are still battle reports coming out, still violence being done. It does put up a barrier against a specific TYPE of PvP, the hotdrop of redonculous proportions where Bored Super Pilots hit a miner with Dreadnaughts. But a barrier making Null peace and sunshine and lollipop wielding carebears?
nuh uh
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
|
Miniemoo
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:32:15 -
[130] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Miniemoo wrote:+ 1
Now this a PVP barrier I disagree, there are still battle reports coming out, still violence being done. It does put up a barrier against a specific TYPE of PvP, the hotdrop of redonculous proportions where Bored Super Pilots hit a miner with Dreadnaughts. But a barrier making Null peace and sunshine and lollipop wielding carebears? nuh uh m
i think it impacts the player that does not have 4-5 accounts accounts when you live in a region and have to travel from isk hunting grounds to join fleets reduces speed of form ups ect. ect.
|
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1689
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:46:07 -
[131] - Quote
Miniemoo wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Miniemoo wrote:+ 1
Now this a PVP barrier I disagree, there are still battle reports coming out, still violence being done. It does put up a barrier against a specific TYPE of PvP, the hotdrop of redonculous proportions where Bored Super Pilots hit a miner with Dreadnaughts. But a barrier making Null peace and sunshine and lollipop wielding carebears? nuh uh m i think it impacts the player that does not have 4-5 accounts accounts when you live in a region and have to travel from isk hunting grounds to join fleets reduces speed of form ups ect. ect. Perhaps this is more about how many blues you have chosen to surround yourself with?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
2201
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 21:54:23 -
[132] - Quote
If I live on a mountain I should not complain about the lack of waterfront property.
If you live deep within a Blue part of space you cannot complain that we have removed the easy button of cross galaxy teleportation and you now have to commute or even MOVE to where the action is. You cannot be both safe AND a threat.
But as has been said before and I will probably say a lot more often. This is ONE STEP in a process. You are complaining you cannot live in a house that does not even have walls yet. Give CCP the time to make ALL the changes, I will still be here to listen to you comment, compliment, or complain but I am looking at the long game, not how things are perceived to be in the short run.
No more than I complain that a house is drafty when they still haven't installed the roof or windows.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
|
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
438
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 04:41:14 -
[133] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before. CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships. Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.
Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.
Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.
ITT: massive amounts of not getting the point.
The point: slowing down any entities ability to move large masses of forces over long distances in a timeframe that directly inhibits the aggressing parties ability to cause reasonable damage before defenders arrive.
The reason: because leaving space assets undefended or under-defended should have penalties. The previous mode of gameplay allowed a given capital to travel from one side of the EVE cluster to the other in 12 minutes. Regional defence as a concept was a total joke because any act of aggression would be met with almost immediate retaliation.
The solution and why it works: the solution we received was to slow down how defending forces respond to an attack. If a given front was under-staffed by defence forces then flanking actions could be utilised to *divide* the enemy and *conquer* them as smaller partitions of their larger force. The game under the new model changed from being a super-hotdrop disco to requiring a much more indepth degree of strategy and tactics. This is why major null groups withdrew from their greater borders so quickly. Because they knew that strategically the amount of space they controlled was undefendable and that tactically they would need to station their forces more locally to their income generating sources in order to defend them properly.
I can't believe this basic idea still needs to be spelt out for people. If you've failed to grasp this idea and make it work then it shows that your institution suffers from very weak planning. You clearly are living in an environment that is more complex than the organisms within it (i.e. you).
Join channel Aussies in space to chat with AU/NZ players
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15898
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 08:54:24 -
[134] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:You cannot be both safe AND a threat.
A succint explaination of the reason for the long distance travel changes.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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DaReaper
Net 7
1618
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:24:11 -
[135] - Quote
Did not read all... but..
*Flashes 10.5 year vet badge*
Back in my day, we had to go 15KM to the gate before we could jump... both ways... in the midst of gate camps...
And we never heard of this thing called a JB. You kids have it easy.
REMOVE JB.
HTFU
-1
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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DaReaper
Net 7
1620
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 18:24:02 -
[136] - Quote
Now a more serious reply:
As already stated, jump fatigue is just stage one of changes. We don't fully know what all of them will be, or how they will effect whats going on. If for example ccp does no sov at all, that you don't claim anything, then this changes all game play fully. If they do occupational type sov and make it so you can produce things locally with easy, then this will have another effect.
What you are doing is you have your face pressed right up to the glass of one of them murual type pictures (the picture that is made up of smaller pictures) looking at a single picture going 'wow... this sucks... why would anyone pay for this pos?' Where as, when CCP starts telling you what is coming, that will most likely be like someone comes up to you and goes 'dude... take like 6 steps back and then look' Now you will see the whole. And go "OH! now I get it!" You could still yea "yea but that's still crap, but I get the idea"
That's the issue. Jump Fatigue is not going to go away. Its part of a whole. And as the whole picture starts to take shape, ccp might modify jump fatigue till it fits into the large picture.
Stop playing eve like its a day game, and look at it in concepts of years, and you will shrug off jump fatigue as until you see the whole thing, you can't really judge.
Also... use gates. or there are these awesome things that came out in 09 called wormholes. You prolly have one a few jumps form you right now, and it might lead you to 3 from jita in 2 jumps.. and cost you no jump fatigue. Who would of thought?
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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dragon65
The Merchant Marine's Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 08:00:21 -
[137] - Quote
in part i do not have a problem with the Jump Fatigue, on the other hand with it and the nerfing the carrier jump range it takes an entire day to move 30 jumps. honestly i have a carrier that i cant use anymore i trained up for it so i was usefull but now im not by haveing both it just seems over kill. |
Auduin Samson
Do not disturb Sanctuary Pact
311
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 08:46:37 -
[138] - Quote
I like the changes as they are. It means that, instead of being able to throw huge fleets and/or capitals at every problem that shows up, deployments need to be thought out strategically. Yes, it's harder to move around, but that means you're more likely to find similar-sized fleets to fight without risking capital escalation by engaging. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15925
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 08:47:11 -
[139] - Quote
dragon65 wrote:in part i do not have a problem with the Jump Fatigue, on the other hand with it and the nerfing the carrier jump range it takes an entire day to move 30 jumps. honestly i have a carrier that i cant use anymore i trained up for it so i was usefull but now im not by haveing both it just seems over kill.
That was exactly the whole point of the change: To make being 30 jumps away from somewhere actually mean something.
Your carrier is still extremely useful; It's just not usable to help dunk on someone 3 regions away and get you home for tea with no consequences any more.
Since you're in TEST, fights are coming to you pretty much daily in any case.
EDIT: Incidentally, you can use gates now; it should take you no more than a couple of hours to go 30 jumps in a carrier - if you want to trade jump fatigue for risk.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
DaReaper
Net 7
1652
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 18:30:50 -
[140] - Quote
dragon65 wrote:in part i do not have a problem with the Jump Fatigue, on the other hand with it and the nerfing the carrier jump range it takes an entire day to move 30 jumps. honestly i have a carrier that i cant use anymore i trained up for it so i was usefull but now im not by haveing both it just seems over kill.
Lets see how we can solv the 3 day thing really fast shall we? You are in test, which has sov. Your leaders need to add the wormhole upgrades in there ihubs and you scan your area. I'll bet you right now you have a wh in one of your systems that you can take that will most likely move you to an area you want to go, or at the very least reduce your jump range. You also have gates, as in you jump someplace, wait till cyno ends, have your cyno pilot scout the way, and you move via gates to get a tad closer to your next jump and maybe jump father. No fatigue and fewer cynos.
The carrier is efficient, as said above you can get there faster with higher risk, or get there slower with less risk.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
|
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Kon Kre8r
Konz Korp
2
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 00:56:26 -
[141] - Quote
The whole purpose for this FAILED jump fatigue system (as stated at time of presentation of concept) was to limit any group from crossing the entire map in minutes, thus bringing everything and everyone from anywhere to anywhere.
I would think that KISS applies here -- Keep It Simple Stupid !
So if we MUST be limited in this fashion a much more simple system can be used as follows:
1) Simply allow for any number of jumps within Max Jump Range of starting point for those of us who just want to travel within a set Region.
2) For those of us who trained on Black Ops, covert jump drives should not be limited. If only because of the requirement to invest months in training for this.
3) Go ahead and limit the jumping of others via my covert jump portal generator with your fatigue system that has been set up to have variants for certain ships with 90% this and 80% that, butGǪ.
I AGREE WITH U GUYS when you say -- LEAVE JUMP BRIDGES ALONE But -- we all know that this is much like trying to skip rocks across the lake - no matter how many times we try -- no matter how hard we try -- the likelihood of getting game decision makers to agree with usGǪ. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
269
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 01:07:28 -
[142] - Quote
Are the tears really still going after a couple months have passed? Probably best for you to find another game to play at this stage. The jump fatigue changes have improved content overall. Meaning there are more wars and persons trying to take SOV. Including small groups. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
632
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 15:44:05 -
[143] - Quote
Hi, I live in nullsec. PL are two cynos over, and BL a few cynos in the other direction. Without fatigue, we would be unable to operate with capitals.
Nay Stigma wrote:Just make Jump Fatigue little less time, I have 30days to wait now. I mean really!!
Then you done goofed son. Watch your fatigue next time.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
|
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1695
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 16:10:10 -
[144] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Hi, I live in nullsec. PL are two cynos over, and BL a few cynos in the other direction. Without fatigue, we would be unable to operate with capitals. Nay Stigma wrote:Just make Jump Fatigue little less time, I have 30days to wait now. I mean really!!
Then you done goofed son. Watch your fatigue next time. Just gonna step in and say, Fatigue has done more for letting overhyped mercenary wannabes operate with impunity than any other mechanic in history (and you cant deny that accusation, i flew with SYJ for YEARS, still love you guys, except pell, never pell, okay pell too) |
Lorren Canada
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
275
|
Posted - 2015.01.11 17:33:28 -
[145] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Hi, I live in nullsec. PL are two cynos over, and BL a few cynos in the other direction. Without fatigue, we would be unable to operate with capitals.
For the sake of argument I won't argue this but I will say that there are much better ways of limiting capital mobility than fatigue. It's really nothing more than an enormous pain in the ass in every possible way and has severely hampered some other times of game play like Blopsing which is not longer attractive as it accumulates fatigue. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15933
|
Posted - 2015.01.11 23:43:09 -
[146] - Quote
Lorren Canada wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Hi, I live in nullsec. PL are two cynos over, and BL a few cynos in the other direction. Without fatigue, we would be unable to operate with capitals. For the sake of argument I won't argue this but I will say that there are much better ways of limiting capital mobility than fatigue. It's really nothing more than an enormous pain in the ass in every possible way and has severely hampered some other times of game play like Blopsing which is not longer attractive as it accumulates fatigue.
I'd be the first agree that fatigue itself isn't an ideal mechanic - I'd prefer something that makes it progressively harder and less safe to use instant travel rather than just increasing a timer.
But whatever mechanic is proposed will, in the end, have to have the same fundamental effect as the JF mechanic has now: making long distance rapid travel something that has extremely significant consequences. And candidly, it's the fact of the existance of consequences rather than their exact manifestation that is what most of the critics are really complaining about.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4195
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 19:57:29 -
[147] - Quote
As someone that regularly roams into provi to find good fights, I'm loving the Jump Fatigue limitations on JB's. It has really improved the fights we get from Provibloc!
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Mikhem
Taxisk Unlimited
262
|
Posted - 2015.01.18 12:12:29 -
[148] - Quote
I proposed recently that Bowhead could get jump drives with very long jump range. It would replace carrier as long range shopping ship. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=398840&find=unread
Mikhem
Link library to EVE music songs.
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Hilianna
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 14:42:12 -
[149] - Quote
+1 ... |
Red Teufel
Mafia Redux
413
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 16:10:06 -
[150] - Quote
don't listen to these cry babies. leave fatigue as it is. Its working as intended. |
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Ragnar STS
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
70
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 02:35:46 -
[151] - Quote
Lorren Canada wrote: has severely hampered some other times of game play like Blopsing which is not longer attractive as it accumulates fatigue.
Is this for real? I've done Black Ops before. Generally it is a pile of guys sharing pics off the internet while 2 or 3 scouts scour the landscape as far as they can while still being in jump range. 90% of 'targets' are bots that autolog the second a non-friendly pops into local. The only way I could ever see jump fatigue really set in during this is if you were too lazy to jump the amazing 4 or 5 jumps via stargate and instead REALLY REALLY wanted to sit and do nothing for an extra ... what ... 5 minutes?
Black Ops can get you into a system past the usual +1 or +2 scouts. It isn't, and never was, a viable solution to covering the galaxy.
Fatigue is good for the game. The only change I'd make would be giving caps a decent jump range again. Dreads always sucked because they couldn't go as far as a carrier. Now everything sucks like a dread. Using the jump drive should actually be worthwhile and get you more than 3-6 standard jumps. It should also be able to span some of those little gaps between some of the outlying regions usually served by a single choke point. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
270
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 03:13:52 -
[152] - Quote
What is the best part of the jump fatigue change? Is it:
a) Smaller alliances being able to finally use their capital ships without a 9/10 chance of being dropped by a larger force b) Aforementioned larger force crying for 8 pages because they can't hotdrop a Drake with 50 pilots through a bridge
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Galadriel Vasquez
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
287
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 19:46:05 -
[153] - Quote
I think its a good idea sloppily put - i like Corebloodbrothers idea of same region no fatigue....
I have tin foil hat trained to 5.
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1726
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 13:46:09 -
[154] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:I think its a good idea sloppily put - i like Corebloodbrothers idea of same region no fatigue.... i dont, fatigue is fatigue, it should be a simple specific rule set "you jump, you get fatigue", no "buts" after
and i personally cant wait for more nullsec changes and the eventual removal/nerf of the JF/etc fatigue bonuses |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
643
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 15:14:58 -
[155] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:I think its a good idea sloppily put - i like Corebloodbrothers idea of same region no fatigue....
Except that idea leaves anyone who lives on the regional borders being shat on from two sides. Entities that live further into the region can simply drop whenever they want, just like the old times, and the guys on the other side of the border just jump up to the line and step across.
It ensures that each region has one and only one power bloc living in it and no-one else can get a foothold.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15969
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 19:40:19 -
[156] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:I think its a good idea sloppily put - i like Corebloodbrothers idea of same region no fatigue....
Start fleet on far side of region A. Fatigue = Zero Cyno Jump right across region A to the gate to region B (no fatigue) Jump through gate to region B. Cyno Jump right across region B to the gate to region C (no fatigue) ... Arrive in region Z with no jump fatigue.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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MrBowers
PH0ENIX COMPANY HOLDINGS Phoenix Company Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2015.01.25 10:57:21 -
[157] - Quote
Hello readers of eve sand box!
The Jump Fatigue is here to stay sorry! BUT on the flip side lets talk about the timers a bit more here....
To start the carrier, supers jump fatigue is a bit high for the first jump....
I would like to see the timer get nerf down to size a little bit here..
Current time is 57 minutes...
reduce down to 27 minutes....
Black Ops and Jump Bridges.... This adds good game content in the game for sub caps... not capital ships here....
I think both should only be hit at 10% of the jump fatigue....
that's all for now enjoy! |
Cutter John
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
5
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 22:19:50 -
[158] - Quote
I hate jump fatigue... I'm sick of it. It makes me rage quit out of eve... |
Cutter John
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
5
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 22:39:46 -
[159] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Torx Sigma wrote:corbexx wrote:There are these things, there called "gates" you are allowed to use them instead of jump bridges you know. Thats the most non profession answer in this thread. You are a wh guy... no wondering that you are not interested in. So fu mr wh csm. Probably as professional as saying fu, But lets continue. The issue is most of you (especially provi people) were using jump bridges as a day to day commodity. like hey i need to get some mods they are 3 jumps away do I do 3 jumps or 1 jump bridge, you literally used them for everything. Now you need to use them as a strategic resource, you'll have to think do i want to save time now getting them mods when its only 3 gates away by using a jump bridge since it might affect me later. You can't use them for everything you will now have topick and choose what you use them for. You guys will adapt I'm sure ;)
Or we will just leave Eve. This was the worst update in eve history... It was the only allure to capital ships and one of the best aspects of null.
Screw this BS. |
Kinis Deren
StarHunt Mordus Angels
436
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 22:58:20 -
[160] - Quote
-1 strongly not supported.
The lack of risk in null sec has been a driving force in the stagnation of sov null. The ability to almost insta-travel from one side of New Eden to the other has spawned mega coalitions and mostly empty systems. The JD nerf was a necessary first step in the revitalisation of sov null warfare.
Get rid of Jump Bridges altogether, go gate to gate and stop being risk averse scrubs.
Wow, the amount of null QQ in this thread is shameful. |
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
647
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 12:44:59 -
[161] - Quote
Cutter John wrote:corbexx wrote:Torx Sigma wrote:corbexx wrote:There are these things, there called "gates" you are allowed to use them instead of jump bridges you know. Thats the most non profession answer in this thread. You are a wh guy... no wondering that you are not interested in. So fu mr wh csm. Probably as professional as saying fu, But lets continue. The issue is most of you (especially provi people) were using jump bridges as a day to day commodity. like hey i need to get some mods they are 3 jumps away do I do 3 jumps or 1 jump bridge, you literally used them for everything. Now you need to use them as a strategic resource, you'll have to think do i want to save time now getting them mods when its only 3 gates away by using a jump bridge since it might affect me later. You can't use them for everything you will now have topick and choose what you use them for. You guys will adapt I'm sure ;) Or we will just leave Eve. This was the worst update in eve history... It was the only allure to capital ships and one of the best aspects of null. Screw this BS.
Good, dont let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Honestly for people so fond of telling others to HTFU you lot have done a remarkable amount of whining over this change, which has been good for pretty much anyone whose idea of fun wasnt 'sit on a titan while our scout finds some unlucky bastard for us to drop on'. Its also freed up a ton of room for smaller entities to have cap fights without bored nullseccers sticking their super fleets in for ***** and giggles.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
177
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 16:54:55 -
[162] - Quote
Cutter John wrote:
Or we will just leave Eve. This was the worst update in eve history... It was the only allure to capital ships and one of the best aspects of null.
Screw this BS.
k. No one will care, but feel free to go. Just opens up more space for people who can adapt to the changes, so I call that win-win.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1083
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 03:52:45 -
[163] - Quote
I love the lack of hot drops thanks to fatigue. I hope they reduce the fatigue bonus on industrials and Black Ops soon.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Poena Loveless
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 09:42:26 -
[164] - Quote
I actually love the mechanic, although BLOPs does need some lovin' -1 |
Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
172
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 10:58:31 -
[165] - Quote
As a former Provi resident I'm glad I missed this thread. Seriously guys, cut the whining, learn from Yulai/Volt and get your **** together and form home defence groups. The Blops nerfs gave you guys some much needed breathing space, and provi has one of the best intel networks in the game. Don't tell me you can't adapt. Try living without local and random connections in your home and you'll know what a godsend a jump bridge once every hour or so would be.
As for BLOPS, I think they're reaosnably balanced now but would be pretty disappointed if they get further nerfed.
New York, Paris, Peckham, Jita
13. is recruiting
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2678
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 16:41:20 -
[166] - Quote
Please don't remove jump fatigue, it will make me regret selling my cap alt. |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
1140
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 00:49:49 -
[167] - Quote
Man this thread. I needed a good laugh.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4314
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 10:20:14 -
[168] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.
The Rules: 8. Use of profanity is prohibited.
The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
72
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 09:48:17 -
[169] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:As you see, someone on the CSM has asked CCP to reconsider these changes.
Which makes _YOU_ the perfect candidate to ask CCP NOT to reconsider.
@Utari: Not sure Volt/Yulai are the perfect examples of great defense fleets, especially since their space is infested with reds on a daily basis.
The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.
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Partsking
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
55
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:33:58 -
[170] - Quote
Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.
+1 |
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David Godfrey
Exanimo Inc Gentlemen's.Club
7
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 02:39:09 -
[171] - Quote
I am rather liking the changes, but that is probably because I enjoy flying subcaps more often. I do agree however that the nerfbat strike was a little too harsh. As above, it should have been either a pure range nerf or just fatigue, keeping the original range.
- just my 2 cents
Don't let the void consume you...
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Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
7
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 09:32:25 -
[172] - Quote
Partsking wrote:Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.
+1
Did you do the math with your proposal? ;)
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Partsking
THORN Syndicate Circle-Of-Two
55
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 14:00:09 -
[173] - Quote
Lakotnik wrote:Partsking wrote:Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.
+1 Did you do the math with your proposal? ;)
I don't care about the math. I know that it's likely the only compromise they'll consider. vOv |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
488
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 16:25:25 -
[174] - Quote
Partsking wrote:Lakotnik wrote:Partsking wrote:Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.
+1 Did you do the math with your proposal? ;) I don't care about the math. I know that it's likely the only compromise they'll consider. vOv
Gicen the choice between a bad compromise and no compromise, why do you think CCP will elect to compromise at all?
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Conflict Engaged
Southern Collective The Southern Syndicate
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 14:14:33 -
[175] - Quote
Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2726
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 22:00:43 -
[176] - Quote
Conflict Engaged wrote:Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.
If you make it about cost, PL will be back to hotdropping rookie ships with fleets of supercaps in no time at all.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1890
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 04:45:09 -
[177] - Quote
Conflict Engaged wrote:Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it. it was about cost originally, if you recall jumps required and still do require Isotopes. It didnt stop them |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
541
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 09:50:29 -
[178] - Quote
Conflict Engaged wrote:Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.
Fuel costs won't work unless they engineer them to be so astronomically high no matter how many are produced. How much fatigue and how it was gained needs more thought.
If the aim was to prevent people dog piling in on a system within 20 minutes of a fight kicking off, then the current mechanics are way to severe and need to be targeted more cleverly. I'd be happy with a compromise whereby the larger the ship mass, the more fatigue is accumulated but in turn the distances that can be jumped needs to be increased and the build up of space aids decreased. It shouldn't have to take a couple of days to jump from Tribute to Delve in a taxi carrier, there is no fun in that. It's just wasted time but I could live with it taking a good few hours to prevent the whole dog piling thing.
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1892
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 21:36:34 -
[179] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Conflict Engaged wrote:Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it. Fuel costs won't work unless they engineer them to be so astronomically high no matter how many are produced. How much fatigue and how it was gained needs more thought. If the aim was to prevent people dog piling in on a system within 20 minutes of a fight kicking off, then the current mechanics are way to severe and need to be targeted more cleverly. I'd be happy with a compromise whereby the larger the ship mass, the more fatigue is accumulated but in turn the distances that can be jumped needs to be increased and the build up of space aids decreased. It shouldn't have to take a couple of days to jump from Tribute to Delve in a taxi carrier, there is no fun in that. It's just wasted time but I could live with it taking a good few hours to prevent the whole dog piling thing. why shouldnt it? why shouldnt you be inconvenienced enough by local geography and distances to care? why should 1 power be able to go to war with another power on the other side of new eden?
answer, they shouldnt. Because as long as you are able to reach that power on the other side of the galaxy and remain comfortable, ANY group or power that tries to build itself up between you and them is easy pickings for both parties, because they are well within reach.
The current fatigue system was designed with extreme penalties because some places are Supposed to be out of reach! as long as there are areas you cant get to without severely inconveniencing yourself, then there are areas where the map can change. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
541
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:12:36 -
[180] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:Conflict Engaged wrote:Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it. Fuel costs won't work unless they engineer them to be so astronomically high no matter how many are produced. How much fatigue and how it was gained needs more thought. If the aim was to prevent people dog piling in on a system within 20 minutes of a fight kicking off, then the current mechanics are way to severe and need to be targeted more cleverly. I'd be happy with a compromise whereby the larger the ship mass, the more fatigue is accumulated but in turn the distances that can be jumped needs to be increased and the build up of space aids decreased. It shouldn't have to take a couple of days to jump from Tribute to Delve in a taxi carrier, there is no fun in that. It's just wasted time but I could live with it taking a good few hours to prevent the whole dog piling thing. why shouldnt it? why shouldnt you be inconvenienced enough by local geography and distances to care? why should 1 power be able to go to war with another power on the other side of new eden? answer, they shouldnt. Because as long as you are able to reach that power on the other side of the galaxy and remain comfortable, ANY group or power that tries to build itself up between you and them is easy pickings for both parties, because they are well within reach. The current fatigue system was designed with extreme penalties because some places are Supposed to be out of reach! as long as there are areas you cant get to without severely inconveniencing yourself, then there are areas where the map can change.
You utterly miss the point of what I said. You see Goon and it's all sandy clunge and hat gons rather than a reasonable and objective discussion.
The point was that instant force projection was bad, it's gone. Great! However it's just inconvenienced deployment via a capital taxi from half an hour to several days, maybe a week at extremes distances. As long as there is a low sec or null NPC station that can be docked in, you can go to war with anyone eventually. Imperium just did that with Fountain and Delve. There is nothing really wrong with that and CCP can't really prevent it no matter what mechanic they add. I'm not saying put it back to what it was but the space aids mechanic was both blanket and too extreme in many circumstances.
Maybe you're just someone who's never lived in null and is not aware of the reality of how it works, especially with merc groups and the more highly mobile specialised groups which tend to fight brushfire wars. These areas can still be reached eventually but adding the time to get to them by several thousand % has no real positive effect on anything, it's just a pain to move fit ships around and in a worst case you end up with boring ship doctrines like the ubiquitous Ishtar fleet (not just because Sentries are OP or the Ishtar is OP either but a series of features which mean it's very good in the current meta) and completely rely on having a JF service. It doesn't really add anything and doesn't change an outcome, it just means people spend more time being bored.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16276
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:59:38 -
[181] - Quote
You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!
The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.
Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2
The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly.
When there is close to zero opportunity cost for moving very quickly, then everyone is your next door neighbour. A situation like this very quickly leads to a two-colour map with zero opportunity for anyone not in one of the two blocs to have any meaningful independent existence regardless of any sov system in place.
Thus the three phases of the sov rework, the first two of which have completely reversed the situation as it was in September 2014
1) The Phoebe changes make it militarily even possible to have more than 2 powers on the map. Pre-Phoebe it wasn't.
2) The "Fozziesov" changes will make it extremely difficult (not impossible, but requiring enormous effort) to hold space that you don't live in and utilise. Currently it's trivial.
3) The 3rd phase will be to rework the local economy of nullsec to make it viable to have a relatively small amount of space support a large number of players.
There will still be wars. There will still be coalitions and diplomacy and politics. There will still be long distance deployments and failcascades and battles. What we won't have, if this all works out, is the old stagnant sitaution where everyone sat on their hands for a year at a time, then there was a gigantic lagfest battle that ultimately meant nothing, because the winner didn't even want the loser's space.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16276
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 19:01:24 -
[182] - Quote
Incidentally, if all you want to do is move your "taxi carrier", then get a corpie or a friend or even an alt to find an appropriate wormhole.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
8
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 06:54:25 -
[183] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:You utterly miss the point of what I said. You see Goon and it's all sandy clunge and hat gons rather than a reasonable and objective discussion.
Stop putting words in peoples mouths. Nobody was discriminating against Goons. You can always have your Alt1 move things from A to B, your 2nd alt from B to C, your main clonejumps from A to C, voila. No fatigue and your stuff is where it should be.
Multple Character training, do you even use it?
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corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
1209
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 08:20:07 -
[184] - Quote
I love the way it is now, its ofc a quick patch to a more structural issue in null sec force projection, and requires more mechanicsms, wihtout those we also not where we w+ínt to be.
But atm if i look at kills pilots for example in provi get ,they up in numbers and isk, big time, ee have fights without the world pilling onto them, as currently wiht nc. Super and cap deployment is limited and so is tidi. All seem to have fun and fatique and range add strategic choices too it.
For form ups people can travel in industrials through the jb network, ceptors, and jumpclones. Those combined take care of most traffic realised.
So as a player and as a csm i am happy with it for now, and more intrested how it will hold under the new sov mechanics with fozzie sov, and hopefully further down the line with structures, buildable stargates and long term future. I ma also intrsted in the rebalance of titans nad supers, in combo wiht fatique.
So whilst its not your ultimate feature, its a quick patch that workes like intended untiill and so on. |
Stuyvenstein Pompetti
Wurmgat Wandelaars Dark Knights of Eden
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 22:20:06 -
[185] - Quote
I support the idea of jump fatigue in making sov less stagnant, but I also think having it on jump bridges is a little overkill but removing it from jbs would then most likely make most people go jump bridge crazy. So instead, maybe have a fatigue reduction bonus on jump bridges the same way as on industrial ships? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16320
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 07:39:33 -
[186] - Quote
Stuyvenstein Pompetti wrote:I support the idea of jump fatigue in making sov less stagnant, but I also think having it on jump bridges is a little overkill but removing it from jbs would then most likely make most people go jump bridge crazy. So instead, maybe have a fatigue reduction bonus on jump bridges the same way as on industrial ships?
So we can keep the lovely big coalitions intact?:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
541
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 08:07:32 -
[187] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!
The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.
Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2
The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly. .
Yes, which I agreed with, as stated. Is there something wrong with reading comprehension in this forum or are people deliberately truculent? |
Iain Cariaba
1341
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 21:28:49 -
[188] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Malcanis wrote:You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!
The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.
Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2
The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly. . Yes, which I agreed with, as stated. Is there something wrong with reading comprehension in this forum or are people deliberately truculent? Both.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16362
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 09:58:53 -
[189] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Malcanis wrote:You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!
The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.
Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2
The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly. . Yes, which I agreed with, as stated. Is there something wrong with reading comprehension in this forum or are people deliberately truculent?
Because there's no tangible difference between a "space taxi" and a carrier that's being deployed to support force projection. How on earth is whatever mechanic you'd like to see going to differentiate between the two? A pop-up where you can check a box that says you pinky-swear you're not moving your "space taxi" for any nefarious purposes?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
10
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 09:23:10 -
[190] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Because there's no tangible difference between a "space taxi" and a carrier that's being deployed to support force projection. How on earth is whatever mechanic you'd like to see going to differentiate between the two? A pop-up where you can check a box that says you pinky-swear you're not moving your "space taxi" for any nefarious purposes?
Naw. A special rig you can apply to your carrier that turns it into a travel carrier with no jump fatigue, but reduces your cargo, fleet and maintenance bays by 100%. Also reduces your drone bay and all defenses by 75%. Ship can't be repackaged or rig destroyed until 3-5 days pass. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8004
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:22:29 -
[191] - Quote
At which point you are better off using a jump clone that uses no fuel and requires no friend/alt to light cynos for you.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
73
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:24:50 -
[192] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:At which point you are better off using a jump clone that uses no fuel and requires no friend/alt to light cynos for you.
Exactly. But people are coming up with ideas on how to evade Jump Fatigue with an excuse that "Logistics movements shouldn't be penalized" but "warlike things should".
The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
535
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 02:05:16 -
[193] - Quote
Lakotnik wrote:Malcanis wrote:Because there's no tangible difference between a "space taxi" and a carrier that's being deployed to support force projection. How on earth is whatever mechanic you'd like to see going to differentiate between the two? A pop-up where you can check a box that says you pinky-swear you're not moving your "space taxi" for any nefarious purposes? Naw. A special rig you can apply to your carrier that turns it into a travel carrier with no jump fatigue, but reduces your cargo, fleet and maintenance bays by 100%. Also reduces your drone bay and all defenses by 75%. Ship can't be repackaged or rig destroyed until 3-5 days pass.
Because not using a ship with no cargo for up to 5 days just because it equipped a rig isn't somehow worse than making a couple of jumps and slowboating the rest of the way.
Right.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Devilish Ledoux
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
111
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 19:38:59 -
[194] - Quote
If the nerves of my brain were laid out in a line, they would stretch approximately 180,000 kilometers. If the word "hate" was written on every single neuron, it would still not equal one one-billionth of the hate I have for jump fatigue.
Hate.
Hate.
HATE.
*apologies to Harlan Ellison |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16374
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 20:24:35 -
[195] - Quote
Devilish Ledoux wrote:If the nerves of my brain were laid out in a line, they would stretch approximately 180,000 kilometers. If the word "hate" was written on every single neuron, it would still not equal one one-billionth of the hate I have for jump fatigue.
Hate.
Hate.
HATE.
*apologies to Harlan Ellison
It sustains me.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
563
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 12:17:05 -
[196] - Quote
All I can say is - you did it to yourselves. The jump fatigue mechanic is a direct response to the common place actions in nullsec - to wit, blueing up half the known universe and then blasting across the galaxy in back like you were going to the corner market, and stagnating the cluster in a way that had never been done before.
You created this monster. Deal with it.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
784
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 13:01:03 -
[197] - Quote
Devilish Ledoux wrote:If the nerves of my brain were laid out in a line, they would stretch approximately 180,000 kilometers. If the word "hate" was written on every single neuron, it would still not equal one one-billionth of the hate I have for jump fatigue.
Hate.
Hate.
HATE.
*apologies to Harlan Ellison
You made your bed, now lie in it.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16389
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 08:40:13 -
[198] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/Co8JGIV.png
OP SUCCESS
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Ashlar Maidstone
Moonfyre Science and Research Inc.
180
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 11:56:41 -
[199] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:All I can say is - you did it to yourselves. The jump fatigue mechanic is a direct response to the common place actions in nullsec - to wit, blueing up half the known universe and then blasting across the galaxy in back like you were going to the corner market, and stagnating the cluster in a way that had never been done before.
You created this monster. Deal with it.
I agree, current CSM sold us out and I have 30 days of jump timer to prove it. |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
662
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 13:06:09 -
[200] - Quote
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:Elenahina wrote:All I can say is - you did it to yourselves. The jump fatigue mechanic is a direct response to the common place actions in nullsec - to wit, blueing up half the known universe and then blasting across the galaxy in back like you were going to the corner market, and stagnating the cluster in a way that had never been done before.
You created this monster. Deal with it. I agree, current CSM sold us out and I have 30 days of jump timer to prove it.
Which you only have yourself to blame for as previously stated. Look I know you guys would love to go back to the days when the only restriction on your movements was how fast you could get a cyno alt to the next target system but you have to face reality, those days are gone for good and there are tons of entities just like you who instead of complaining or proposing 'fixes' which are simply transparent efforts at sidestepping fatigue have simply pulled their socks up and adapted how they do things.
There's tons of ways you can increase mobility without falling victim to fatigue and im just going to share one of them - wormholes. Wormholes are your new best friends so learn about them, track them, map them and dont be afraid to use them.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16396
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 07:32:28 -
[201] - Quote
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:Elenahina wrote:All I can say is - you did it to yourselves. The jump fatigue mechanic is a direct response to the common place actions in nullsec - to wit, blueing up half the known universe and then blasting across the galaxy in back like you were going to the corner market, and stagnating the cluster in a way that had never been done before.
You created this monster. Deal with it. I agree, current CSM sold us out and I have 30 days of jump timer to prove it.
Actually that was me, not the current CSM.
:smug:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
792
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 12:58:36 -
[202] - Quote
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:Elenahina wrote:All I can say is - you did it to yourselves. The jump fatigue mechanic is a direct response to the common place actions in nullsec - to wit, blueing up half the known universe and then blasting across the galaxy in back like you were going to the corner market, and stagnating the cluster in a way that had never been done before.
You created this monster. Deal with it. I agree, current CSM sold us out and I have 30 days of jump timer to prove it.
The only thing that 30 day jump timer proves is that you didn't seriously consider the well publicised and explained consequences of your actions.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
542
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 12:50:01 -
[203] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:Malcanis wrote:You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!
The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.
Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2
The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly. . Yes, which I agreed with, as stated. Is there something wrong with reading comprehension in this forum or are people deliberately truculent? Because there's no tangible difference between a "space taxi" and a carrier that's being deployed to support force projection. How on earth is whatever mechanic you'd like to see going to differentiate between the two? A pop-up where you can check a box that says you pinky-swear you're not moving your "space taxi" for any nefarious purposes?
Dude, you really need to stop being so flippant, it doesn't really help anyone or anything.
There are ways to deal with this which would be relatively painless, however blanket restrictions on one feature to tackle one problem yet affects many game play mechanics which were never actually much of an issue is bad idea. |
Iain Cariaba
1368
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 18:09:15 -
[204] - Quote
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:Elenahina wrote:All I can say is - you did it to yourselves. The jump fatigue mechanic is a direct response to the common place actions in nullsec - to wit, blueing up half the known universe and then blasting across the galaxy in back like you were going to the corner market, and stagnating the cluster in a way that had never been done before.
You created this monster. Deal with it. I agree, current CSM sold us out and I have 30 days of jump timer to prove it.
30 days of space aids?!?!?!?
Excuse me, but how the **** do you not realize what you're doing wrong long before you get 30 days of space aids?
If you ended up with the max timer after more than 6 months of living with jump fatigue, the true issue is with the being between the chair and keyboard here, not with the jumo fatigue system.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16403
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 22:05:57 -
[205] - Quote
test
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2764
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 23:00:48 -
[206] - Quote
is recruiting?
heh heh
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16405
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 06:12:26 -
[207] - Quote
I had a big long reply but the forum get 404ing every time I tried to post it. Forums script is I guess telling me not to waste my time trying to reason with people who don't care about reasons.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16405
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 06:17:04 -
[208] - Quote
It's all very well saying that there are "painless ways to deal with this", but all the "painless ways" so far proposed have either reduced down to "pinky swear" solutions or are just straight up "let me move as many ships around as fast as I like but this is a power projection nerf because whargle garble". If you've come up with a way to tesseract the hypersphere, then by all means enlighten and impress me.
Don't take too long about it though, please. I'm not sure how much longer I can hold my breath.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Ripcord Zarrek
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 21:23:57 -
[209] - Quote
I have to agree that the jump bridge fatigue is insanely stupid. I'm willing to accept jump fatigue and all that but having fatigue for going through a JB that you alliance owns, in space you own and that you pay to fuel for each jump should not cause fatigue. JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps, we shouldnt be punished for using them.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2750
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 21:53:09 -
[210] - Quote
Ripcord Zarrek wrote:JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps
And they're for the mass movement of fleets across huge distances almost instantly.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
542
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:03:29 -
[211] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Ripcord Zarrek wrote:JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps And they're for the mass movement of fleets across huge distances almost instantly.
If you get rid of all the cool things that you can build in nullsec, people will start to question what the point of living their is.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16416
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:17:09 -
[212] - Quote
Having lots of smaller groups rather than 2 ultra blocs who only have one fight a year is the very coolest of those things.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16418
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 20:02:07 -
[213] - Quote
Jump bridges are still pretty cool things to have and use even if they're not "free".
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2776
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:20:16 -
[214] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:admiral root wrote:Ripcord Zarrek wrote:JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps And they're for the mass movement of fleets across huge distances almost instantly. If you get rid of all the cool things that you can build in nullsec, people will start to question what the point of living their is.
and that question is being asked.
but I do not see that the jump bridge has been 'gotten rid of' just that it has ceased to be the highway it once was and now pays the same penalty for swift movement that other methods do.
similar to the 'risk and reward' mantra is 'power and cost'
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Reeses Peices
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 03:27:28 -
[215] - Quote
Mike, don't you wonder why people are leaving Eve in droves since Jump fatigue was introduced? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16444
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 06:59:23 -
[216] - Quote
Reeses Peices wrote:Mike, don't you wonder why people are leaving Eve in droves since Jump fatigue was introduced?
Because they pine for the good old days when 0.0 was split between 2 blocs and there was 1 big fight per year?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2780
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 08:22:08 -
[217] - Quote
Reeses Peices wrote:Mike, don't you wonder why people are leaving Eve in droves since Jump fatigue was introduced?
Who? I have met lots of players coming back and seen a few go out the door but 'droves' implies a major exodus. PL closing down? They certainly would have a reason to if we took all their fun away
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Pandemic_Legion/stats
nope
Oh, Maybe it is the goons who are leaving to play H1S3 or whatever it is called
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Goonswarm_Federation/stats
Oho, yeah drop in numbers right then in . . . May. 7 months later . . . well I guess their news sources are a little slow.
Reeses, have you quit? Or have you adapted? Have you noticed that Caps are being used? Blown Up? That there is action and battles and hotdrops and ambushes still happening? Or is that just exiting players liquidating their assets in big explosions?
Show me the droves.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
543
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 14:01:04 -
[218] - Quote
I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1586
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 15:03:51 -
[219] - Quote
Sylphy wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:At which point you are better off using a jump clone that uses no fuel and requires no friend/alt to light cynos for you. Exactly. But people are coming up with ideas on how to evade Jump Fatigue with an excuse that "Logistics movements shouldn't be penalized" but "warlike things should".
Right, because logistics and war have nothing to do with each other.
knobbler Jobbler wrote:Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question
So you imply that only holders of significant amounts of sov can give anything other than "opinions based on anecdotes" and then you call Malcanis passive-aggressive? Wow.
From my point of view as a gate-and-wormhole-taking scrub, I'm sure it was nice to be able to teleport hither and yon, your "taxi carrier" protected by the threat of a giant hotdrop if anyone looked at it sidelong. I'm sure it felt really good to stride across entire regions uncontested. Ah, the glory of Empire! The problem is that it sucked for everyone else.
For every cap that's been retired because New Eden is no longer a pleasant Sunday drive, how many have been fielded because they no longer have to worry about Sunday drivers from the other side of the cluster? For everyone who sold their cap alt, there's a buyer who wanted it.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16445
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 15:20:52 -
[220] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest. Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue.
And your evidence that jump fatigue is the major cause is....?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2783
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 17:38:30 -
[221] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest. Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue.
Fair question. Yup, used jump bridges when with TOLE under Engarde and then SCDOT. Not recently, late 2012. Not since because I have not been part of a null alliance since then. So except for some blops work I have accumulated very litte fatigue since the effect came into being and oddly it did not seem to slow us down very much.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
543
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 23:44:00 -
[222] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest. Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue. And your evidence that jump fatigue is the major cause is....?
No but I wasn't the person suggesting it was, it was in reference to the health of the game. Its purely circumstantial and the falling pcu could be many things. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
543
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 23:59:25 -
[223] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Sylphy wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:At which point you are better off using a jump clone that uses no fuel and requires no friend/alt to light cynos for you. Exactly. But people are coming up with ideas on how to evade Jump Fatigue with an excuse that "Logistics movements shouldn't be penalized" but "warlike things should". Right, because logistics and war have nothing to do with each other. knobbler Jobbler wrote:Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question So you imply that only holders of significant amounts of sov can give anything other than "opinions based on anecdotes" and then you call Malcanis passive-aggressive? Wow. From my point of view as a gate-and-wormhole-taking scrub, I'm sure it was nice to be able to teleport hither and yon, your "taxi carrier" protected by the threat of a giant hotdrop if anyone looked at it sidelong. I'm sure it felt really good to stride across entire regions uncontested. Ah, the glory of Empire! The problem is that it sucked for everyone else. For every cap that's been retired because New Eden is no longer a pleasant Sunday drive, how many have been fielded because they no longer have to worry about Sunday drivers from the other side of the cluster? For everyone who sold their cap alt, there's a buyer who wanted it.
Would you go to a plumber for informed and educated advice on how to rebuild a car engine? Would you go to a mechanic to seek advice on your latest physical ailment? If you drive a Ford should I come to you for advice on buying an Audi?
I've stated several times that the idea of restrictions on capitals and movement by way of fatigue is quite valid, however the blanket use of the mechanic without much thought given to some areas was poorly thought out and in several ways too harsh. Never at any point in this thread did I take on the black or white view point so many others have that it's all or nothing. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8083
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 03:30:38 -
[224] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote: I've stated several times that the idea of restrictions on capitals and movement by way of fatigue is quite valid, however the blanket use of the mechanic without much thought given to some areas was poorly thought out and in several ways too harsh. Never at any point in this thread did I take on the black or white view point so many others have that it's all or nothing. Unfortunately... the mechanics of the game are very "black and white" when it comes to this.
The ability to rapidly move from the far side of null-sec to pick up skillbooks in low-sec is mechanically NO DIFFERENT than moving from the far side of null-sec to gank some poor sob in low-sec.
The only differences between the two scenarios are the intent and end result... and a computer cannot discern your intent until it sees an end result... at which point the damage is done.
tldr; traveling quickly IS projecting power. And Jump Bridges are no different from capital jump drives in this regard. They are merely stationary.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1587
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 04:06:56 -
[225] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Would you go to a plumber for informed and educated advice on how to rebuild a car engine? Would you go to a mechanic to seek advice on your latest physical ailment? If you drive a Ford should I come to you for advice on buying an Audi?
This is just more obscurantism. A jump bridge isn't an internal combustion engine. A carrier isn't a human body. The ability to cross the entire cluster easily in one of the most (technically) dangerous parts of a gigantic PVP game (and call it a "taxi," as if you were just getting around midtown) is so obviously a projection of power that there's no arguing it. You know that, which is why you're trying to fluff this into some arcane issue that only the Illuminati know enough to ponder.
Get real. It takes about 10 minutes to get up to speed on this issue. Even Blizzard eventually figured out that hey, maybe letting players fly willy-nilly over all of their content is dumb. It feels great, and players get hooked on the experience, but it's killing the game.
knobber Jobbler wrote:I've stated several times that the idea of restrictions on capitals and movement by way of fatigue is quite valid, however the blanket use of the mechanic without much thought given to some areas was poorly thought out and in several ways too harsh. Never at any point in this thread did I take on the black or white view point so many others have that it's all or nothing.
But you also dodge any attempt to get a specific example that passes the laugh test. Whether you ever used it or not, your taxi enjoyed the implicit protection of a hot drop by the biggest power in the game--better protection than Yellow Cab gets from NYPD. Your logistics runs and your repositioning are intrinsically military. I really shouldn't have to explain to a Goon that logistics are strategically and tactically vital: you guys have the best logistics in the game. There's no separating these roles because there's no separation to be found.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16446
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 10:54:58 -
[226] - Quote
Still waiting for a suggestion that isn't either pinky-swear or whargle garble.
When you come up with one, let's continue the discussion then.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 16:42:20 -
[227] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before. CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships. Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.
Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.
Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.
Probably one of the worst changes to Eve since the Mothership debacle and item-shop-of-horrors fiasco.
The Eve Universe is HUGE, so unless this change is entirely to prove Yatzi right in his Escapist video about how hard and slow it is to get around in Eve (and how the game is like a game that rewards you for not playing), then this change is completely terrible.
Also, using the crap logic about a null-argument about why jump fatigue is """""""necessary""""""", why do Jumpgates not give fatigue? Note: don't do this, it's obviously not a suggestion. What 'science' is behind that yet every other form of jumping causes fatigue (apparently - I just returned to Eve to find out about this nonsense).
Why have jump bridges at all now? Why have capital ships? Why not just take them all out now since it's apparently impossible to move them anywhere without a stupid and mindless mandated waiting period which is in pure essence, bureaucratic non-Eve-science horsecrap that serves no role in Eve other than to **** off capital pilots and screw with 0.0 logistics.
Don't even make the 'sov mechanics' argument, as that's utter crap and shouldn't require nerfing the crap out of capitals via jump-trolltigue and breaking jump networks.
*nerdrage over until next major game breaking change that CCP adds without caring what players think*
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 18:27:48 -
[228] - Quote
Posts by CSM defending such blatant and massive broken game breaking changes completely erase any faith I had in CSM. This change is entirely indefensible and logic used to support CCP on this is extremely ridiculous and ignores the facts on the ground that this change is overwhelmingly bad and hated by the Eve community.
Where did this idea of fatigue even come from? Was there a vote or did players ask for jump fatigue? I could have just missed it, so any links would be great. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16465
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:07:26 -
[229] - Quote
Well that's the voice of the whargle-garble constituency, everybody.
Now let's hear from the "viable alternative suggestion" demographic.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:25:17 -
[230] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well that's the voice of the whargle-garble constituency, everybody.
Now let's hear from the "viable alternative suggestion" demographic.
I say vote Pedro for President.
Also, breaking something just to ask what should have been instead isn't really a stellar method of finding a better way, but its Eve so here we are.
CCP should probably spend more time thinking about all the things they implement than say, changing ships that take years to train, and then fundamentally changing those ships' roles (like the Mothership change) and then when people are like 'hey!' saying 'oh well!'. It's not like this is WoW where you just push buttons and hit 100.
To people who trololol and say this Jump Fatigue thing is the best thing since sliced bread, what does this change actually address or -dare I say- fix, in any way at all? |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16467
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:36:41 -
[231] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote: To people who trololol and say this Jump Fatigue thing is the best thing since sliced bread, what does this change actually address or -dare I say- fix, in any way at all?
Since you couldn't be bothered to participate in or even follow or even be aware of the lengthy and closely argued discussion that started a couple of years ago, and which was reprised at length in the change announcement thread, it doesn't seem that it would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time in explaining it to you all over again.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1600
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:37:30 -
[232] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:Where did this idea of fatigue even come from? Was there a vote or did players ask for jump fatigue? I could have just missed it, so any links would be great.
Players love OP stuff. Firing a superweapon through a cyno and wiping out an entire fleet is awesome. Going 12km/s in a Raven? Awesome. Covering an entire star cluster in the time it would take you to cross your front lawn? Awesome.
Do you think CCP made a giant game so that players could traipse across it on a whim? If anything I'd like them to make the game bigger. Right now, stellar systems--stellar systems--are basically just large rooms.
(Aside: your alliance led the nerf supers charge because they didn't like that one enemy bittervet could wipe out a whole subcapital fleet of theirs. Ask them about it.)
General Xenophon wrote:But corbexx, we love you, why you no love us?
He loves you enough to give you what you need, not necessarily what you want.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:39:51 -
[233] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:General Xenophon wrote: To people who trololol and say this Jump Fatigue thing is the best thing since sliced bread, what does this change actually address or -dare I say- fix, in any way at all?
Since you couldn't be bothered to participate in or even follow or even be aware of the lengthy and closely argued discussion that started a couple of years ago, and which was reprised at length in the change announcement thread, it doesn't seem that it would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time in explaining it to you all over again.
Since I've seen no argument worth responding to as to why this helps any part of Eve beyond just breaking something. No. and since while you were posting about how I didn't read and missed reading where I wrote 'any links would be great' and how I just got back and am learning about this atrocious change. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16467
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:42:49 -
[234] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:Malcanis wrote:General Xenophon wrote: To people who trololol and say this Jump Fatigue thing is the best thing since sliced bread, what does this change actually address or -dare I say- fix, in any way at all?
Since you couldn't be bothered to participate in or even follow or even be aware of the lengthy and closely argued discussion that started a couple of years ago, and which was reprised at length in the change announcement thread, it doesn't seem that it would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time in explaining it to you all over again. Since I've seen no argument worth responding to as to why this helps any part of Eve beyond just breaking something. No. and since while you were posting about how I didn't read and missed reading where I wrote 'any links would be great' and how I just got back and am learning about this atrocious change.
Here you go
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:44:27 -
[235] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:General Xenophon wrote:Where did this idea of fatigue even come from? Was there a vote or did players ask for jump fatigue? I could have just missed it, so any links would be great. Players love OP stuff. Firing a superweapon through a cyno and wiping out an entire fleet is awesome. Going 12km/s in a Raven? Awesome. Covering an entire star cluster in the time it would take you to cross your front lawn? Awesome. Do you think CCP made a giant game so that players could traipse across it on a whim? If anything I'd like them to make the game bigger. Right now, stellar systems-- stellar systems--are basically just large rooms. (Aside: your alliance led the nerf supers charge because they didn't like that one enemy bittervet could wipe out a whole subcapital fleet of theirs. Ask them about it.) General Xenophon wrote:But corbexx, we love you, why you no love us? He loves you enough to give you what you need, not necessarily what you want.
<3
I agree with what you're saying, some of that stuff just needed to be fixed, but really why would someone not think about these things before adding them? It gets old having things in game for years, planning out training for them for CCP to then be like "oh.. we shouldn't have added it this way'. Other games this kind of thing doesn't matter as much as its no big deal changing your path or skills. In Eve, it takes time to train skills, in many cases, years.
As much as I'd like a giant hammer to just OP everything to death, I understand why the Titan changes were made. It just shows a pattern of how things are implemented that's just plain frustrating.
It would be great that instead of nerfing the crap out of things, something else was added to the game instead to balance it out. What that would be in this case is a good question.
Also, how many times ever has CCP said 'oh we won't add that' when they announce ahead of time to folks something and folks say 'we don't like that'? Pretty much never (except maybe the item-shop-debacle of rumored '''''gold ammo'''') several years ago. |
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 21:59:24 -
[236] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:General Xenophon wrote:Malcanis wrote:General Xenophon wrote: To people who trololol and say this Jump Fatigue thing is the best thing since sliced bread, what does this change actually address or -dare I say- fix, in any way at all?
Since you couldn't be bothered to participate in or even follow or even be aware of the lengthy and closely argued discussion that started a couple of years ago, and which was reprised at length in the change announcement thread, it doesn't seem that it would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time in explaining it to you all over again. Since I've seen no argument worth responding to as to why this helps any part of Eve beyond just breaking something. No. and since while you were posting about how I didn't read and missed reading where I wrote 'any links would be great' and how I just got back and am learning about this atrocious change. Here you go
A gentleman/woman and a scholar. Thank you sir/mad'am. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16468
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 22:25:55 -
[237] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:
It would be great that instead of nerfing the crap out of things, something else was added to the game instead to balance it out. What that would be in this case is a good question.
For example, capitals and supercapitals can now use gates. That's a pretty big balancing change.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 00:28:24 -
[238] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:General Xenophon wrote:
It would be great that instead of nerfing the crap out of things, something else was added to the game instead to balance it out. What that would be in this case is a good question.
For example, capitals and supercapitals can now use gates. That's a pretty big balancing change.
I love that gif. Very good :D
God gracious mad'am/man! Your reading comprehension is fantastic!
I mentioned that change in my posts and said I liked it but that it didn't end up being enough of a positive due to jump fatigue and shorter jump range. Also if you haven't noticed, capitals are very slow. Also it takes quite a while to go places through gates. ( If I'm going to fast let me know. ) So while some might call this 'balance'... I'm just a little lost for words. MAYBE if we get capitals on a very rigorous training program to lower their mass by several hundred million, then give them nano's, then.. wait. YES.
While I'm all for us going down the empire-kiddos-whinning-about-a-Mothership-camping-in-low-sec trail, I don't even want to know what they think about a fleet of Titans jumping through a gate and DD'ing their badger.
Also, Jump fatigue. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16474
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 07:53:48 -
[239] - Quote
Well the travel changes are explicitly supposed to be a power projection nerf. A "balancing change" that was 'a big enough positive' wouldn't really meet the target goals.
Anyway: you asked for the reason for the jump fatigue mechanic. You've been given a source for the reasons.
It's thoroughly evident that you're not going to accept those reasons and are just sealioning, so at this point I will content myself with the following
1) I did it: it was me. Along with Manfred Sideous, Marlona Sky, I campaigned as hard as I could for a power projection nerf; it was one of the core issues in my CSM campaign, and I was voted in by the players who were left in no doubt whatsoever about my views on the topic. I put the case as passionately and eloquently as I could, face to face in person, with Fozzie until he cried and asked me to stop.
So that answers your other question about who voted for this, and I get to smug about being instrumental in making it happen too.
2) Immediately after it was announced - before it was even implemented - the PP nerf started having the desired effect, and now 6 months later the EVE sov map is hugely more diverse and fragmented. From a single political axis between CFC:N3 a year ago, we now have this with whatever the factorial of all those independent blocs are to provide content and drive events.
So I also get to smug about being proved completely correct about the effects of power projection, and the visible and undeniable benefits of removing it.
Your move, kid. I'll be over here, making things happen and being right.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 03:44:13 -
[240] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well the travel changes are explicitly supposed to be a power projection nerf. A "balancing change" that was 'a big enough positive' wouldn't really meet the target goals. Anyway: you asked for the reason for the jump fatigue mechanic. You've been given a source for the reasons. It's thoroughly evident that you're not going to accept those reasons and are just sealioning, so at this point I will content myself with the following 1) I did it: it was me. Along with Manfred Sideous, Marlona Sky, I campaigned as hard as I could for a power projection nerf; it was one of the core issues in my CSM campaign, and I was voted in by the players who were left in no doubt whatsoever about my views on the topic. I put the case as passionately and eloquently as I could, face to face in person, with Fozzie until he cried and asked me to stop. So that answers your other question about who voted for this, and I get to smug about being instrumental in making it happen too. 2) Immediately after it was announced - before it was even implemented - the PP nerf started having the desired effect, and now 6 months later the EVE sov map is hugely more diverse and fragmented. From a single political axis between CFC:N3 a year ago, we now have this with whatever the factorial of all those independent blocs are to provide content and drive events. So I also get to smug about being proved completely correct about the effects of power projection, and the visible and undeniable benefits of removing it. Your move, kid. I'll be over here, making things happen and being right.
You strike me as the kind of person who would deflate a perfectly good tire and claim you fixed the car when the engine was bad. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16483
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 08:22:17 -
[241] - Quote
Sorry, I can't make out what you're saying over the background sound of the sov map being radically redrawn and multiple independent new coalitions showing up.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 15:59:16 -
[242] - Quote
Honestly, I disagree with the idea of jump fatigue, I didn't want to get dragged into a 'you did this' kind of thing and low level 'you don't read' nonsense since its obvious you didn't read and don't read what I write, as it's the idea I disagree with.
I've seen this sort of massive-nerf-bat-thing happen in Eve for years now, and folks who have been around for some time could probably tell you more about changes which have been good / bad. It's always a pattern of Add X to game, players adapt and do Y, and so then CCP nerfs or cuts the legs of X. It just seems like a very bad way to operate. Mark my words, players will do Y now and then CCP will have to remove or nerf X again and its just a dumb cycle.
I imagine if I was in your same position and had to find a solution to an issue I would A) think hey this might work and B) be thrilled with myself if it accomplished what I hoped for. After all, convincing CCP of changing something is pretty remarkable as they -in many cases thankfully- tend to be very stubborn about changes to their game, unlike other companies which just cave into the playerbase all the time and dumb the game down (Blizzard) .I do disagree that jump fatigue is the answer, and just blanketing it over industry, movement, and pvp 'power' to Jump Bridges and caps, is just a bit too broad of a swing.
You could have accomplished a similar thing by say, limiting the number of JBs per region, reducing their range, reducing caps range, and while these suggestions make me cringe and I don't like them much either, they're generally less terrible than saying that all things that 'jump' now get this fatigue nonsense (supers had their range reduced, but with jump fatigue its kind of a null point).
Again, I really don't like the idea and as much as you are extraordinarily arrogant and combative while you attempt to not be wiling to listen to people say they don't like this idea, I can at least tell you that the idea itself is what I have an issue with, not you personally.
It's just human nature that people who implement an idea will immediately rush to defend it, and get offended when anyone says its bad, when in fact those people are saying the idea itself is bad, not necessarily the people implementing it, so right or wrong, I get where you're coming from |
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 16:07:31 -
[243] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Sorry, I can't make out what you're saying over the background sound of the sov map being radically redrawn and multiple independent new coalitions showing up.
Also, in terms of Sov. Big deal. Last I checked your alliance was blue to Goons, and although I just recently rejoined Goons after being away, I find they get a lot less butthurt about losing ships and sov than everyone else in Eve and can still find enjoyment in the game no matter what happens. After all, they just blew up a stupidly expensive and rare hundred bil ship for giggles and it was an epic fun event.
Changes that affect logistics affect everyone, and while I miss the days of seeing lots of big name alliances holding various areas of space with their allies (06-07 time period, Dusk and Dawn, Razor, MM, for better or worse-BOB, ASCN, RA, etc), changing logistics mechanics via the jump fatigue thing is a bit nutty.
One could just expect that this whole argument about 'power' and how its wield, is now more than ever a numbers game. Who has the most pilots in a set area of space to respond to an area under attack. Or, imagine that, all those capitals in the game just being left where they're needed and more being built to be left in another area, so the whole 'jumping range' or 'fatigue' business becomes an ignored -if annoying- 'feature' of Eve. Game mechanic changes like this are just like building sandcastle walls at low tide and claiming victory against the ocean.
So while the shift from fast travel has been nerfed in a game which is impossibly long and boring to travel in, one might expect an upswing of the 'mega-alliance' numbers thing, which is a whole nother debate altogether, and harkens back to the 'we miss the massive doomsday weapon' thing that cleared fields of ships (although lets be honest, that DD mechanic is never coming back and with as many Titans in-game right now, 0.0 Eve would just turn into a strobe-light-flash animation game). |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16486
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 18:26:36 -
[244] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:Malcanis wrote:Sorry, I can't make out what you're saying over the background sound of the sov map being radically redrawn and multiple independent new coalitions showing up. Goons have sov? Last I checked your alliance was blue to the Imperium. Although I just recently rejoined Goons after being away, I find they get a lot less butthurt about losing ships and sov than everyone else in Eve and can still find enjoyment in the game no matter what happens. After all, they just blew up a stupidly expensive and rare hundred bil ship for giggles and it was an epic fun event.
Yes that's true. Completely irrelevent, but true.
General Xenophon wrote:Changes that affect logistics affect everyone, and while I miss the days of seeing lots of big name alliances holding various areas of space with their allies (06-07 time period, Dusk and Dawn, Razor, MM, for better or worse-BOB, ASCN, RA, etc), changing logistics mechanics via the jump fatigue thing is a bit nutty.
Well I say they not "a bit nutty" and to back my assertion up, I can point to the fact that it has in fact worked.
As you yourself say, you were away for 4-5 years, That means you missed the ever increasing stagnation and homogenisation of nullsec into
Two households, both alike in dignity, In fair Verona, where we lay our scene, From ancient grudge break to new mutiny, Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
Merely those two great houses, neither willing to make the first move against the other because both had far more space than they could reasonably use but neither could release any of that space as it would be captured and rented out by the other. So if you were in 0.0, you were in CFC or N3 or renting. Or being punchbagged in Provi, I suppose, as if being a pet kept alive at the whim of greater powers was any fun.
By the end, it was awful, utterly awful. All there was to do was log in for a posted op, wait on titan and hope beyond hope that maybe, just maybe, this time there'd be a fight.
(Just kidding, there was never a bloody fight)
Then you repped the POS or blapped the POS and you logged off again.
General Xenophon wrote:One could just expect that this whole argument about 'power' and how its wield, is now more than ever a numbers game. Who has the most pilots in a set area of space to respond to an area under attack. Or, imagine that, all those capitals in the game just being left where they're needed and more being built to be left in another area, so the whole 'jumping range' or 'fatigue' business becomes an ignored -if annoying- 'feature' of Eve. Game mechanic changes like this are just like building sandcastle walls at low tide and claiming victory against the ocean.
So while the shift from fast travel has been nerfed in a game which is impossibly long and boring to travel in, one might expect an upswing of the 'mega-alliance' numbers thing, which is a whole nother debate altogether, and harkens back to the 'we miss the massive doomsday weapon' thing that cleared fields of ships (although lets be honest, that DD mechanic is never coming back and with as many Titans in-game right now, 0.0 Eve would just turn into a strobe-light-flash animation game).
There can't be an "upswing of the 'mega-alliance' numbers thing" from the starting point, because it was all just two mega alliances. Even if the end point is that it settles down to 3 blocs, that's still 50% better than the shitpile we had in 2014.
Oh and the whole "blocs will just make as many caches as they need with infi ships and infi people willing to put in infi effort to keep them updated to current doctrines" that you're groping your way towards?
Yeah, didn't happen.
Seriously kid, all these obvious objections and os so cunning plans have been raised, examined and dismissed by people far smarter than either of us. They're the people running your alliance, who have - correctly in my opinion, decided that in the new geo-strategic environment abandoning everything south of Fade was the smart play.
Oh, and giving INIT. half of Tenal. That was a master stroke of strategic genuis too!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1607
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 19:50:44 -
[245] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:I agree with what you're saying, some of that stuff just needed to be fixed, but really why would someone not think about these things before adding them? It gets old having things in game for years, planning out training for them for CCP to then be like "oh.. we shouldn't have added it this way'. Other games this kind of thing doesn't matter as much as its no big deal changing your path or skills. In Eve, it takes time to train skills, in many cases, years.
Yeah. Welp. They did. Given that they didn't think about things before adding them, and they're now part of the game, what would you have them do?
General Xenophon wrote:It would be great that instead of nerfing the crap out of things, something else was added to the game instead to balance it out. What that would be in this case is a good question.
There's not much point in trying to buff something when you don't have a clear idea of what that something's role will be. CCP has said that they'd like to make supers fun again , and that they need a new role post-Dominion, but that's a slightly harder problem than, say, making the Omen worth flying.
If you have any ideas, you could rescue Manny's thread from obscurity and share them.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 21:35:05 -
[246] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:General Xenophon wrote:Malcanis wrote:Sorry, I can't make out what you're saying over the background sound of the sov map being radically redrawn and multiple independent new coalitions showing up. Goons have sov? Last I checked your alliance was blue to the Imperium. Although I just recently rejoined Goons after being away, I find they get a lot less butthurt about losing ships and sov than everyone else in Eve and can still find enjoyment in the game no matter what happens. After all, they just blew up a stupidly expensive and rare hundred bil ship for giggles and it was an epic fun event. Yes that's true. Completely irrelevent, but true. General Xenophon wrote:Changes that affect logistics affect everyone, and while I miss the days of seeing lots of big name alliances holding various areas of space with their allies (06-07 time period, Dusk and Dawn, Razor, MM, for better or worse-BOB, ASCN, RA, etc), changing logistics mechanics via the jump fatigue thing is a bit nutty. Well I say they not "a bit nutty" and to back my assertion up, I can point to the fact that it has in fact worked. As you yourself say, you were away for 4-5 years, That means you missed the ever increasing stagnation and homogenisation of nullsec into
No where did I say I was away for 4-5 years. How do you get through a day without being able to read things correctly?
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 21:43:16 -
[247] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:General Xenophon wrote:I agree with what you're saying, some of that stuff just needed to be fixed, but really why would someone not think about these things before adding them? It gets old having things in game for years, planning out training for them for CCP to then be like "oh.. we shouldn't have added it this way'. Other games this kind of thing doesn't matter as much as its no big deal changing your path or skills. In Eve, it takes time to train skills, in many cases, years. Yeah. Welp. They did. Given that they didn't think about things before adding them, and they're now part of the game, what would you have them do? General Xenophon wrote:It would be great that instead of nerfing the crap out of things, something else was added to the game instead to balance it out. What that would be in this case is a good question. There's not much point in trying to buff something when you don't have a clear idea of what that something's role will be. CCP has said that they'd like to make supers fun again , and that they need a new role post-Dominion, but that's a slightly harder problem than, say, making the Omen worth flying. If you have any ideas, you could rescue Manny's thread from obscurity and share them.
I guess I'd start by thinking about what impact a change would have. If your goal is to shake up 0.0 and change sov mechanics, then you would focus on that instead of hindering 0.0 logistics, nerfing jump bridges, and impairing capitals. You might try to argue that these changes impact how sov works and I'll go ahead and agree there, but it goes too far. It's all well and good to have a bunch of new space opened up for other alliances, until those alliances can do f-all trying to maintain them with logistics and the huge headache involved for 'new' alliances trying to figure this debacle out when they end up having to live in the butt end of the Eve Universe.
I don't have to provide an alternate suggestion just to prove that the currently mechanic change is bad for Eve. It's bad because its bad and it's pissed people off.
I like the post you sent, as it gives food for thought. Essentially people making this change and everyone else should be up front about whether they think capital ships should be in Eve anymore because changes like this are a pretty big in dynamics. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1609
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 01:39:49 -
[248] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:I guess I'd start by thinking about what impact a change would have. If your goal is to shake up 0.0 and change sov mechanics, then you would focus on that instead of hindering 0.0 logistics, nerfing jump bridges, and impairing capitals.
The problem, as I put it to an alliance-mate of yours, is that logistics is the backbone of any military effort, and easy cluster-wide movement and logistics imply easy cluster-wide power projection, and that was a huge problem. You guys sit at the top of the heap in the best truesec in no small part because you have the best alliance logistics in the game. It's great for you guys, but it had stifling effect on smaller powers when any great effort on their part anywhere in space could be answered within minutes by one or more apex fleets. Part of the goal of the news is to regionalize powers so that there's more room for the little guys and more internal pressure on coalitions. Look at all the open systems now, and the fledgeling coalition making a go of it in the Drone Regions: that was one of the main goals.
Oh, and they want you to do your own mining and your own manufacturing--and again, your alliance has responded--which is a more attractive option when you can't just hop down to Jita over lunch break.
General Xenophon wrote:Limit the number of players in alliances
How many numbered versions of Goonswarm Federation would you like to see? Finding solutions that can't be easily gamed is deceptively hard.
General Xenophon wrote:It's all well and good to have a bunch of new space opened up for other alliances, until those alliances can do fork-all trying to maintain them with logistics and the huge headache involved for 'new' alliances trying to figure this debacle out when they end up having to live in the butt end of the Eve Universe because the established alliances pick the spots they work best for them. Not sure if anyone can relate, but living in the drone regions requires some real stiff logistics not to mention other regions and just nerfing 0.0 logistics right from the get go, gimps new alliances trying to make their mark while the established ones are like 'meh' and keep hitting hard.
That's the point of the massive buffs to nullsec resources and industry: to take the pressure off logistics somewhat. Sure, new alliances will have a rough time of it, but that's true no matter what. Starting out is always hard. You guys were lucky enough to be able to crash on Red Alliance's couch. Any advantage they can use, you can use on a much larger and more efficient scale. One exception: small alliances are better able to use wormholes for logistics (and conveniently, there's an upgrade that generates them). It's one of the few transportation methods in EVE that scales poorly.
General Xenophon wrote:One doesn't have to provide an alternate suggestion just to prove or point out that the currently mechanic change is bad for Eve.
True, and if you want to bend CSM's ear your best bet might be Sugar Kyle: She's not nullsec, but she's flown enough jump freighters to be annoyed at the change and wary of further nerfs. It's worth a shot, anyway. From what I gather, the rest of CSM will be a hard sell.
I recommended the alternate suggestion in case you had ideas, because CCP is looking for them--in the context of the planned sov changes, but still, it's a chance to make a difference for a class of ship that you're clearly fond of.
General Xenophon wrote:But at least in a universe without capitals, the fish would be safe.
If sharks could teleport all over the oceans within minutes to land on top of schools of fish, how many fish would there be? CCP has to look at the problem from an ecological perspective.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 16:43:43 -
[249] - Quote
Honestly, I don't claim to speak for Goonswarm in the manner your speaking of, but thanks though and I thoroughly appreciate talking to you about this as at least even if we disagree, it's a conversation. In regards to Goonswarm, you'd have to ask someone who has been in there more as they'd know it better. I speak from 9 years of Eve experience with 0.0 alliances (I've taken a few months break twice, so maybe if I had to guess 5 months away from Eve? so it's not a total solid 9 years, but close), Dusk and Dawn, Mostly Harmless, Dark and Light, Mistakes Were Made, Space Monkeys Alliance, and some others which I forget sadly but remember the great folks in them.
Yea most of my 'ideas' here are more of just examples and I'm just throwing stuff out there honestly which would need considerable reworking to be plausible. I do think these are better than the jump fatigue thing and even if totally unpolished, would add more to Eve than take away like the Jump Fatigue thing does.
The fact is, in 0.0 logistics is required, whether its for military or not and I for one do not support something that makes a game already known for spreadsheets and an exercise in management, more difficult and tedious for 0.0 alliances. To put it humorously, this just screams Empire kiddos nerfing 0.0 again when they have no real solid understanding or experience living, maintaining, or actively participating in a 0.0 alliance.
I've been in 0.0 alliances for years now, done logistics, reactions, and etc, seen how others do it, and while I'm relatively new to Goonswarm, I have a decent amount of experience with 0.0 politics, military events, and logistics, so to me none of these changes seem to really consider the big picture or what will actually happen to game-play day to day, nor are actually 'good' solutions, despite folks probably trying their best (can't blame them, balance is hard).
Logistics has been part of Eve long before Goonswarm was a thing, and arguably, with an alliance Goonswarm's size logistics is pretty fantastically difficult to manage, so I really give the folks who make it work a ton of credit for what they do.
I think its bad to punish 0.0 alliances with logistics, capital, and JB networks purely when one is trying to account for how power is wield, and frankly with such a broad and negative stroke and devoid of thought. It's also, frankly, extremely naive to how Eve works. |
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 17:03:06 -
[250] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:True, and if you want to bend CSM's ear your best bet might be Sugar Kyle: She's not nullsec, but she's flown enough jump freighters to be annoyed at the change and wary of further nerfs. It's worth a shot, anyway. From what I gather, the rest of CSM will be a hard sell. I recommended the alternate suggestion in case you had ideas, because CCP is looking for them--in the context of the planned sov changes, but still, it's a chance to make a difference for a class of ship that you're clearly fond of. General Xenophon wrote:But at least in a universe without capitals, the fish would be safe. If sharks could teleport all over the oceans within minutes to land on top of schools of fish, how many fish would there be? CCP has to look at the problem from an ecological perspective.
There's a lot of great stuff in your post I'd like to respond to, so forgive me for responding piecemeal.
This is just the problem with changes and in this case, CSM. It can't be ONE person that has experience with the thing before others try to change it. That's a HUGE problem. If people have no idea how something works, or don't know it well enough, they have no real business thinking they know how to change it. It's exactly why 0.0 alliances get screwed by people in Empire who have basically no comparable experience with 0.0. It's not that they don't know Eve, they have plenty of experience in Empire I might not have, but they may not know 0.0 or how it works so while well meaning, the changes they propose often seem out of place and kind of missing the mark. Especially when the let their ego convince them that they know better than people who they clearly don't know better than. They're not bad people either, just trying to make the game better, although I guess you could argue its possible folks exist that just want to break things.
I've often just thought of the CSM as CCP's player-meatshield for changes they're going to make which will be unpopular and so they can just say 'Well you elected the CSM and you wanted a voice' and then let the CSM take the heat for some bs.
The example of there not being capital ships has nothing to do with sharks, but I appreciate the humor and analogy haha. Another reason its cool talking with you. <3 forum-bffls
I'm just saying that it's extremely disconcerting that people would consider a space game without capital ships. It would be like me saying 'well we shouldn't have missions anymore in Eve' and the Empire kiddos* would flip out and demand blood.
*I say kiddos with love :D Empire is often more dangerous and deadly than 0.0 can be, and to be fair, you have to work hard in Empire. I just don't want you lot pooping on my parade cause yall are Elephants and that's a lot of poo.
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 17:11:46 -
[251] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:General Xenophon wrote:Limit the number of players in alliances How many numbered versions of Goonswarm Federation would you like to see? Finding solutions that can't be easily gamed is deceptively hard.
ALL teh versions!
But seriously, its just an idea I thought of in a few minutes, and it needs refining but its just to illustrate the point that many other even surface level ideas are better than this massive game breaking jump fatigue change.
Dersen Lowery wrote:General Xenophon wrote:It's all well and good to have a bunch of new space opened up for other alliances, until those alliances can do fork-all trying to maintain them with logistics and the huge headache involved for 'new' alliances trying to figure this debacle out when they end up having to live in the butt end of the Eve Universe because the established alliances pick the spots they work best for them. Not sure if anyone can relate, but living in the drone regions requires some real stiff logistics not to mention other regions and just nerfing 0.0 logistics right from the get go, gimps new alliances trying to make their mark while the established ones are like 'meh' and keep hitting hard. That's the point of the massive buffs to nullsec resources and industry: to take the pressure off logistics somewhat. Sure, new alliances will have a rough time of it, but that's true no matter what. Starting out is always hard. You guys were lucky enough to be able to crash on Red Alliance's couch. Any advantage they can use, you can use on a much larger and more efficient scale. One exception: small alliances are better able to use wormholes for logistics (and conveniently, there's an upgrade that generates them). It's one of the few transportation methods in EVE that scales poorly.
Buffs to nullsec resources and industry: how so?
Personal question, not an attempt to attack you in any way: how much 0.0 logistics have you done in Eve and what kind was it? This helps me understand where you are coming from and see how I can explain where I'm coming from.
Nerfing logistics affects large and small alliances, but more so small or 'new' alliances as they don't have an established method to handle the demanding requirements of logistics.
I'll respond more later, no time at the moment, sorry!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16495
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Posted - 2015.06.05 18:56:15 -
[252] - Quote
Oh jesus, not the "limit the number of systems an alliance can have" thing.
I mean really?
Seriously you had me going for a while there. Now I know you're trolling.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 19:05:23 -
[253] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Oh jesus, not the "limit the number of systems an alliance can have" thing.
I mean really?
Seriously you had me going for a while there. Now I know you're trolling.
The adults are talking. Go eat your ice cream. |
DaReaper
Net 7
2169
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 03:17:53 -
[254] - Quote
Ypu do realize sov changes are not finished yet right? you may not need all them jumps once its done. so i'm waitiing to pass judgment
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 17:23:42 -
[255] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Ypu do realize sov changes are not finished yet right? you may not need all them jumps once its done. so i'm waitiing to pass judgment
Not sure whom you are referring to, but I agree that sov should have little or nothing to do with capitals in regards to jump fatigue and how this is just bad. With carriers jump range gimped to 5 ly - which is basically a joke in terms of distance - adding a timer to this as well is pretty much full stupid.
Sov does affect JBs, but with jump fatigue on JBs as well, that's kind of a null point since you can go one place and then you're forced to wait. Even though JB jump fatigue is terrible, at least pick one thing to change: sov or have jump fatigue but don't have both as its massive overkill. (I'm still going to hate jump fatigue)
If the issue is sov, then fix sov. Don't break JBs and capitals to fix something different. It just shows scatter brained scatter shot to kill an ant. It seems to suggest that some of the people making the changes have little or no real practical experience with 0.0 mechanics or logistics.
The more and more I hear about these changes the more it sounds like some alliances trying to nerf other alliances specifically, and less about actually balancing the game in any reasonable fashion. Ultimately all of these changes so far make it a lot harder and worse for new alliances that do not have the built in numbers and experience to overcome 0.0 challenges / CCP nerfs.
But by all means! Let's see where this goes. If it makes Eve better, great! Otherwise, nice job nerf warriors. You get full credit for cluster fork-ing Eve |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1624
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:58:17 -
[256] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:Buffs to nullsec resources and industry: how so?
This covers the most recent round of changes: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/summer-2015-nullsec-and-sov-status-report/
In addition, ore compression was completely overhauled. It's vastly improved. Nullsec outposts get the best industry bonuses in the game, and industry slots have been eliminated. The ore buff (which is the second one) improved the yield of Mexallon, which was a bottleneck.
Sov null is now the best place to do industry and mining, easily--risk aside, of course, but at least there's a substantial reward now.
General Xenophon wrote:Personal question, not an attempt to attack you in any way: how much 0.0 logistics have you done in Eve and what kind was it? This helps me understand where you are coming from and see how I can explain where I'm coming from.
I've personally familiar with wormhole logistics, which is a whole different kettle of fish. We couldn't use freighters of any kind at all, unless we were willing to wait between wormholes. Everything was T1 industrials and blockade runners.
But I'm also an information sponge, and so I'm not just running my mouth. This topic has generated hundreds and hundreds of pages of feedback, and I've read almost every single one.
General Xenophon wrote:Nerfing logistics affects large and small alliances, but more so small or 'new' alliances as they don't have an established method to handle the demanding requirements of logistics.
But logistical reach is inseparable from military reach. That's the nub of the issue. Your ability to zip over the entire game easily is your alliance's ability to project power over the entire game, which has two consequences: 1) that any smaller power fielded any capitals at all at their peril, and never mind claiming sov, and 2) that your cap was not exposed to similar risk, because your alliance tag carried with it the implicit threat of suddenly apex fleet. The problem did not end at the borders of sov nullsec, either: there are a lot of much happier low sec capital and supercapital pilots who can now bring their big guns out without attracting the attention of every major power in the cluster, and smaller alliances who are happy that they can now bring out fleets without automatically having those supers dropped on them.
Since we're asking questions: how much time have you spent in an alliance that lived with the existential threat of annihilation every day? How much time have you spent as the little mammal among dinosaurs? That was our life in a WH. Because, while I don't doubt that being able to go anywhere and dunk anyone was fun for you, it has rather severe gameplay consequences for the people you dunked, who are the rest of the game.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 22:13:39 -
[257] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:General Xenophon wrote:Buffs to nullsec resources and industry: how so? This covers the most recent round of changes: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/summer-2015-nullsec-and-sov-status-report/ In addition, ore compression was completely overhauled. It's vastly improved. Nullsec outposts get the best industry bonuses in the game, and industry slots have been eliminated. The ore buff (which is the second one) improved the yield of Mexallon, which was a bottleneck. Sov null is now the best place to do industry and mining, easily--risk aside, of course, but at least there's a substantial reward now.
Thanks for the link!
So you haven't done large scale 0.0 logistics, but have done logistics, correct? It's also very relevant to the issue and choosing to ignore it because people have posted x times about y thing, doesn't mean its invalid. It's a very real thing in Eve.
Frankly a lot of this just sounds like dumbing the game down. Of course a larger / more powerful alliance's tag is going to inspire a feeling of 'oh no' to groups not on the same footing. That doesn't mean make a game breaking change to jump mechanics. It's also blatantly devoid of the realities of 0.0. if the goal here is just to make 0.0 'accessible' to smaller alliances by nerfing capital ships and logistics, this is the wrong way to do it.
Dersen Lowery wrote: But logistical reach is inseparable from military reach. That's the nub of the issue. Your ability to zip over the entire game easily is your alliance's ability to project power over the entire game, which has two consequences: 1) that any smaller power fielded any capitals at all at their peril, and never mind claiming sov, and 2) that your cap was not exposed to similar risk, because your alliance tag carried with it the implicit threat of suddenly apex fleet. The problem did not end at the borders of sov nullsec, either: there are a lot of much happier low sec capital and supercapital pilots who can now bring their big guns out without attracting the attention of every major power in the cluster, and smaller alliances who are happy that they can now bring out fleets without automatically having those supers dropped on them.
If we base the entire game off of what 1 person can do vs 100 people, why bother have alliances? Why bother to have teamwork? Why not make this a single player space mining game? Trust me, I like mining, but this is not what Eve is, nor what it should be. This change goes way to far in inhibiting a small alliance from doing their thing as well, as many who have used a JF or Titan Bridge to move freighters, can attest. People can't claim these changes help small alliances out because at the end of the day, the logistics changes hurt them more because they have fewer people to overcome the hurdles of 0.0 than a big alliance. It's just the way it works. If they want to fix sov, fix sov, not capitals and JBs.
Dersen Lowery wrote: Since we're asking questions: how much time have you spent in an alliance that lived with the existential threat of annihilation every day? How much time have you spent as the little mammal among dinosaurs? That was our life in a WH. Because, while I don't doubt that being able to go anywhere and dunk anyone was fun for you, it has rather severe gameplay consequences for the people you dunked, who are the rest of the game.
I've had many a time (sadly) facing down immediate annihilation but that's part of Eve. The NC vs FLA war. Dusk and Dawn - Band of Brothers (BoB) and Mercenary Coalition taking over space our space during one of the BoB wars and me running as fast as one can in a Raven whilst being chased by MC, into our new home as the reformatted D2 version - Mostly Harmless - in the Drone Regions (before they were named and all had numbers for region names). Then in the drone regions, crisis repping a critical pos as we faced invasion by the Russian blob who had just decimated just about everyone else in the Drone Regions (I died in a carrier that day). Then there was the alt who asked permission to join Dark and Light in the BoB / MC 'Tortuga' short lived dream as they broke off from BoB and had their *stuff* pushed in. Then there was being in Mistakes Were Made and the immediate need to evac titan level infrastructure and assets as the CFC/Test Coalition broke so yes, I'm probably a little bit familiar with the 0.0 storm of annihilation, then there was all of the times PL pushed -whichever alliance I was in at the time- faces in or brought the bat to bear. I might have forgotten some, but these are the main one's I recall.
As you mentioned, WH's are now the 'go to' mode of travel for logistics - why? Mostly because its easy and makes 0.0 logistics a little easier. That's not the same as saying it will work for alliances that need multiple JFs to move their product and can't rely solely on a random WH location. As I mentioned, players adapt and the likely next thing to get nerfed will be WHs and how they are used to travel. Comparing WHs to actual full level 0.0 logistics is, respectfully, a massive an inadequate stretch and totally different than actual scale 0.0 logistics. I could bring up any number of analogies but I couldn't find a way to say it in a way that would sound disrespectful.
I just don't like the 'hey lets add x' and then people use it, then CCP completely breaks that thing they added. It adds massive upheaval to the game, pisses off players, and is just a silly way to operate.
Jump Fatigue is not the answer, none of the changes so far seem remotely realistic to an actual balanced solution, and on top of that, they impact some of the points they claimed to set out to fix - like making breaking up 0.0 to allow for smaller alliances a 'chance'. |
General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 22:24:17 -
[258] - Quote
Anyway, experience aside, if you want to address sov as the issue. Then address sov. Don't change entire game mechanics all around sov instead of just dealing with sov - yea they are making changes NOW, but they nerfed caps and JBs first which is again, broken and bad for the game.
I posted in the thread you mentioned about caps, but maybe CCP just really needs to look at the core of the issue of how sov mechanics work for attack / defense. There is probably a better way of doing it that doesn't mean essentially rendering capital ships completely irrelevant.
If people are essentially so pissed at losing to bigger alliances, get over it. I've been there and yea it blows, but its Eve and its a crazy massive sandbox and if you're going to complain about getting sand in your eye and insist that the only thing that will fix it is breaking the game, I don't want to hear it. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1627
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 18:11:33 -
[259] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:So you haven't done large scale 0.0 logistics, but have done logistics, correct? It's also very relevant to the issue and choosing to ignore it because people have posted x times about y thing, doesn't mean its invalid. It's a very real thing in Eve.
To a large degree, it is EVE, because as I mentioned, no military operation of any more significance than a roam happens without it. Which makes it a fundamental game design issue. It's simply impossible to fix sov without looking at logistics.
One of the goals of your alliance was to wean itself from Jita, which is no surprise: if a tiny alliance can send their one JF from, say, Etherium Reach to Jita to resupply, then you guys can send a hundred JFs from Deklein to resupply. As long as everything's in Jita, and as long as you have a robust logistical chain to Jita, there's no reason to make anything in nullsec--which means that no alliance really lives in their space. They put necessary military assets there, and disposable ratting ships (e.g., AFKtars) while their alliance's heart beat in invincible stations in the unconquerable space of The Forge. Ask your own logistics guys. They'll tell you that GSF built everything within a few jumps of Jita and humped it out to Deklein until these changes. Not even the people who figured out how to make that work well for them liked the arrangement.
But if you can send a hundred JFs for a quick run to Jita from Deklein, you can send anything anywhere in a quick run, and that was the problem. Logistics are force projection, and force projection enables logistics. I'm sure it was glorious to be able to straddle a cluster while I derped around in an Epithal (I never said I was good at logistics), but again, even your own guys accepted that it wasn't sustainable. It was directly responsible for vast swaths of claimed but unused space in nullsec.
Dersen Lowery wrote:Frankly a lot of this just sounds like dumbing the game down. Of course a larger / more powerful alliance's tag is going to inspire a feeling of 'oh no' to groups not on the same footing. That doesn't mean make a game breaking change to jump mechanics. It's also blatantly devoid of the realities of 0.0. if the goal here is just to make 0.0 'accessible' to smaller alliances by nerfing capital ships and logistics, this is the wrong way to do it.
I have to disagree here: complicating logistics doesn't dumb anything down. Moving your industrial base out into conquerable space doesn't dumb anything down. If you want the awesome space far away from high sec, that's now a choice with a cost. If you want easier logistics, build your own stuff. In your own, claimable space. In conquerable stations. Risk, reward. Logistics is now much more complex and much more interesting than "hump down to Jita." It makes all different kinds of players (potentially!) valuable contributors to an alliance. Big alliances are still a threat, and they will always be, but you can find a remote part of space where they probably won't be a threat unless they're heading through your space on their way somewhere else, or unless they specifically decide to have it in for you. Geography matters now.
Dersen Lowery wrote:As you mentioned, WH's are now the 'go to' mode of travel for logistics - why? Mostly because its easy and makes 0.0 logistics a little easier. That's not the same as saying it will work for alliances that need multiple JFs to move their product and can't rely solely on a random WH location.
Yes, that's a feature: it's the only kind of long-distance jumping that doesn't scale, so it can benefit the little guy without being an even bigger boon to the big guy. So you can see now, the big alliances are contracting and moving their industrial backbone into null. Small alliances are starting to fill the gaps already. It's not easy, and they're not always successful, but that's OK. That's EVE. What's remarkable is that they feel that they have a shot at it. That's new.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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General Xenophon
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 22:13:00 -
[260] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:General Xenophon wrote: -snipped for room- To a large degree, it is EVE, because as I mentioned, no military operation of any more significance than a roam happens without it. Which makes it a fundamental game design issue. It's simply impossible to fix sov without looking at logistics.
And? Are we nerfing all military in Eve because we want to address sov and who has the chance to claim it? If it's also for military as you insist at an alarmingly regular rate because I've not been arguing you on this point, its also equally about industry because you can't have one without the other in some manner (empire, 0.0, low sec, everything is built and sold, and in many cases eventually blown up).
Dersen Lowery wrote: One of the goals of your alliance was to wean itself from Jita, which is no surprise: if a tiny alliance can send their one JF from, say, Etherium Reach to Jita to resupply, then you guys can send a hundred JFs from Deklein to resupply. As long as everything's in Jita, and as long as you have a robust logistical chain to Jita, there's no reason to make anything in nullsec--which means that no alliance really lives in their space. They put necessary military assets there, and disposable ratting ships (e.g., AFKtars) while their alliance's heart beat in invincible stations in the unconquerable space of The Forge. Ask your own logistics guys. They'll tell you that GSF built everything within a few jumps of Jita and humped it out to Deklein until these changes. Not even the people who figured out how to make that work well for them liked the arrangement.
This is so devoid of the realities of living in 0.0 that I simply do not have enough room to explain all that is wrong with this. Also I expect that you talk to my points, not mystery points somewhere else that other people have made and whose arguments I'm not making.
Dersen Lowery wrote:I have to disagree here: complicating logistics doesn't dumb anything down (WH logistics are complicated!). Moving your industrial base out into conquerable space doesn't dumb anything down. If you want the awesome space far away from high sec, that's now a choice with a cost. If you want easier logistics, build your own stuff. In your own, claimable space. In conquerable stations. Risk, reward. Logistics is now much more complex and much more interesting than "hump down to Jita." It makes all different kinds of players (potentially!) valuable contributors to an alliance. Big alliances are still a threat, and they will always be, but you can find a remote part of space where they probably won't be a threat unless they're heading through your space on their way somewhere else, or unless they specifically decide to have it in for you. Geography matters now.
As you mentioned, WH's are now the 'go to' mode of travel for logistics - why? Mostly because its easy and makes 0.0 logistics a little easier. That's not the same as saying it will work for alliances that need multiple JFs to move their product and can't rely solely on a random WH location.
I'm not talking about logistics being dumbed down, I'm talking about how its going to make it harder for people who do not have the numbers to overcome this change.
Of course WHs are hard. Logistics is hard and again, why it matters that its changing for the worse. WH logistics are not comparable in this sense and frankly are a lot less impacted than stationary 0.0 alliances because they've never had to deal with JBs and vast 0.0 networks / logistics. Also, let's do an exercise: open the map and find a remote region of space that won't at some point hit space dominated by big alliances. I'm curious too as the new map is a hate crime to maps as it's completely terrible to use and induces headaches and vertigo. Do you think it's likely that small alliances, jammed up in the edges of Eve somewhere, having pains doing logistics, aren't at some point going to bump into a giant -and therefore mean and should be nerfed- alliance?
I'm also not actually saying WHs are going to be enough for logistics.
I'm AM saying its a ridiculous argument to pigeon hole these changes for what is being '''''claimed'''' to fix because it breaks so many other things without actually getting to the point of what is wrong. I am saying that nerfing capital ships and adding Jump Fatigue is bad, and just making 0.0 more 'accessible for alliances to claim' is dumbing down the game, but actually its worse than that, as it is implicitly making it harder for new alliances to do logistics and actually keep the sov they get. So not only does it not accomplish what it set out to, but it breaks a huge part of the game, and adds a number of other issues to the game that are entirely unnecessary.
Dersen Lowery wrote: Yes, that's a feature: it's the only kind of long-distance jumping that doesn't scale, so it can benefit the little guy without being an even bigger boon to the big guy. So you can see now, the big alliances are contracting and moving their industrial backbone into null. Small alliances are starting to fill the gaps already. It's not easy, and they're not always successful, but that's OK. That's EVE. What's remarkable is that they feel that they have a shot at it. That's new.
(Baring you and some others of note) The only benefit I can see from this is that 0.0 folks will never again have to deal with Empire folks who have little or no idea how 0.0 works and always want to make changes to it. It's also incomprehensibly bad for the Eve economy to completely separate 0.0 from Empire. |
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