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Ciras
Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.25 11:33:00 -
[1]
Bookmarks cause lag and they are a pain to manage. You can't get rid of them completely because people need them for safespots and such. But I have an idea to remove the necessity for gate to gate/station BMs. Here's my idea...
Skill name: Warp Drive Navigation Description: Decreases the minimum distance you can warp to a location by 3 km per level. (Training to level 5 allows you to jump 0km from an object.) Training time multiplier: 6x Prerequisite: Navigation 5
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Mogubu
League of Gentlemen O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:05:00 -
[2]
No.
1. Timesink. 2. Why keep even more people out of lowsec? ---
Buy mjolnir javelins or rage infernos? Eve-mail me! |
Ediz Daxx
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:15:00 -
[3]
Bookmarks arent only to make instas to gates/stations.. do people just not know this or what?
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2006.08.25 12:40:00 -
[4]
Using bookmarks for instajumps is an unintended use of bookmarks. Expecting CCP to convert that to a skill is a bit naive.
I would sooner expect bookmarks created/existing within 15km of a gate/station to reposition them to the center of the object, thus making instajumps impossible.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.25 13:19:00 -
[5]
I got tons of bookmarked roids, I don't see how that would work with a skill. Even so I am pro-skill for warping to gates and stations as long as my roid-bm's stay.
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LandreeaMarinata
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw Using bookmarks for instajumps is an unintended use of bookmarks. Expecting CCP to convert that to a skill is a bit naive.
I would sooner expect bookmarks created/existing within 15km of a gate/station to reposition them to the center of the object, thus making instajumps impossible.
A lot of ppl will just quit eve if insta jumps will dissapear. just try making 20 jumps in 0.0 without instas with a bs
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Derrys
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:42:00 -
[7]
Skill to reduce warp-in distance = bad. Module to reduce warp-in distance = good.
Why? Well, as others have pointed out, a skill-based system would just create one more skill everybody has to train in order to stay competitive. It would be a huge waste of players' time, and in the end all it would do is lead back to the status quo.
A module, on the other hand, forces players to prioritize and make sacrifices. Want to warp in closer to the gate? Okay, but it needs a slot and the means you're going to have to give up some weapons/speed/tank/cap recharge/etc. In my opinion that's the way it should be.
-- Admiral Derrys Otireya Commander, Fleet Operations, Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Fleet Admiral, Kimotoro Directive |
Coren Skyus
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:00:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Coren Skyus on 25/08/2006 16:07:20
Just try making 20 jumps ANYWHERE without instas. Who cares about gate campers, etc. - when you can cut your valuable time playing the game almost in half - why would anyone be against them? CCP should just implement warp to 10K and 5K and be done with it! Of course you could still have BMs but they would just not be allowed within 15km of any any gate or station. Yeah it would involve some programming, but it would also shut up all the complainers.
Or as one pointed out modules - they would work as well, but with those what are you going to do, elimate all BMs except the ones the Agents give you? You HAVE to leave BMs in the game, but if you do there will be no way to control it by just asking people not to use them.
At 5km that would still give gankers a chance but still reduce flight time quite a bit for those of us who actually put a price on our valuable free time.
My two cents.
Coren
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Amarria Lightwielder
N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:13:00 -
[9]
freighters without insta, brrr :)
NAGA ShopÖ
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Derrys
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Coren Skyus Or as one pointed out modules - they would work as well, but with those what are you going to do, elimate all BMs except the ones the Agents give you? You HAVE to leave BMs in the game, but if you do there will be no way to control it by just asking people not to use them.
Leave bookmarks in, just make it impossible to create one within 20km of a gate or station.
-- Admiral Derrys Otireya Commander, Fleet Operations, Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Fleet Admiral, Kimotoro Directive |
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Raider Zero
Minmatar Federation
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:51:00 -
[11]
I for one am not in favor of the quite popular "bookmarks cause lag" argument. If that argument is true, Eve causes lag and should be eliminated.
Why not fix bookmarks to make them easier on the server to handle? I don't know how to do that, I do not write code. However, I do know that there are many exchanges of data and other things going on in Eve that work well and are not excessively server-heavy. I fail to see how tracking 5 drones and up to 21 missiles in space per ship (Cruise Navy Raven with fast RoF)is harder to handle than somebody jumping to a point that doesn't appear on the basic scaffolding of the map.
If there is a module needed, I hope I get the BPO however I think it would be more elegant to fix the current system than throw it out and start over.
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Utoxin
Caldari Kydance Radiant Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.25 17:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Derrys
Originally by: Coren Skyus Or as one pointed out modules - they would work as well, but with those what are you going to do, elimate all BMs except the ones the Agents give you? You HAVE to leave BMs in the game, but if you do there will be no way to control it by just asking people not to use them.
Leave bookmarks in, just make it impossible to create one within 20km of a gate or station.
Pfft. Easy solution. Default warp-to distance: 50km, make insta at 50km. :)
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Ciras
Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.26 13:00:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Derrys Skill to reduce warp-in distance = bad. Module to reduce warp-in distance = good.
Why? Well, as others have pointed out, a skill-based system would just create one more skill everybody has to train in order to stay competitive. It would be a huge waste of players' time, and in the end all it would do is lead back to the status quo.
A module, on the other hand, forces players to prioritize and make sacrifices. Want to warp in closer to the gate? Okay, but it needs a slot and the means you're going to have to give up some weapons/speed/tank/cap recharge/etc. In my opinion that's the way it should be.
You know what? I like your idea better than mine.
Some points: 1. You cannot get rid of bookmarks completely - I never implied we should. 2. They DO cause lag - at least when they are copied. After they are copied, I'm not sure what the demand is on the server by their actual use. 3. It is indeed a good idea to optimize the code if possible to reduce the lag they cause. 4. A warp module that minimized jump distance would be good!
This is a good discussion - I've already seen how my origninal idea is bad!
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doctorstupid2
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.26 21:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw Using bookmarks for instajumps is an unintended use of bookmarks. Expecting CCP to convert that to a skill is a bit naive.
I would sooner expect bookmarks created/existing within 15km of a gate/station to reposition them to the center of the object, thus making instajumps impossible.
Then we'll just move the bookmarks, for example, 100km behind the gate an warp them at 100. Ok fine, they say, we'll remove bookmarks within the same grid of a gate, then we'll just have a covops or ceptor make a slingshot and warp to the gang memeber. It's no more an exploit that lining up a covops on an enemy to drop firepower directly on it.
And more to the point, I have yet to see any GM/Dev/etc say that instas are an exploit or whatever you want to call it. Feel free to prove me wrong, but instas have been in widespread use for years now, and not a word from the devs, at least that I can find.
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Klausi
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Posted - 2006.08.26 21:47:00 -
[15]
Or they don't change the way bookmarks work and invent a barrier around stations and gates. That way we drop out of warp at 15km no matter where the bookmark is.
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Charok
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Posted - 2006.08.26 21:51:00 -
[16]
Here is all you need to do.
Give everyone the ability to jump to 0k from anything and leave the bookmarks in.
There done no problem everyone now has instas and autopilot takes less time to jump anywhere you want to go.
Cant make money on insta's anymore? AHH so sad, try mining.
Cant gate camp? hmm go kill a pos.
I don't know why CCP hasent done this yet. Now they have made it so people that want to fight will have to find others that have the same goals.
You havent changed anything except now people dont have to spend isk on a one time investment for insta's, and you cant pick on the people who can't afford the insta prices.
Oh and now you have a reason to want to pull people out of warp.
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Serenity Steele
Rearden Steele Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.27 15:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Derrys Skill to reduce warp-in distance = bad. Module to reduce warp-in distance = good. Quote:
Module ftw. Just needs an adjustment of freighters - which are slow enough travel as is *with* instas.
Eve Strategic Maps - Outpost Alert
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Ramanujan
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Posted - 2006.08.28 16:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Derrys Skill to reduce warp-in distance = bad. Module to reduce warp-in distance = good.
Why? Well, as others have pointed out, a skill-based system would just create one more skill everybody has to train in order to stay competitive. It would be a huge waste of players' time, and in the end all it would do is lead back to the status quo.
A module, on the other hand, forces players to prioritize and make sacrifices. Want to warp in closer to the gate? Okay, but it needs a slot and the means you're going to have to give up some weapons/speed/tank/cap recharge/etc. In my opinion that's the way it should be.
I disagree. A module would cause more unbalancing issues, as it will favor certain races and ship classes than others. What about shuttles or freighters? If you remove a medium slot out of a frigate you make them useless in most contexts. Disable mass copying of bookmarks. If you want to copy a bookmark, make is that you can only copy one at a time. Copying many at the time is a convenience that is being abused.
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Father Weebles
RoadKill Pickup Services
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Posted - 2006.08.28 17:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mogubu No.
1. Timesink. 2. Why keep even more people out of lowsec?
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Derrys
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.28 18:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ramanujan I disagree. A module would cause more unbalancing issues, as it will favor certain races and ship classes than others. What about shuttles or freighters?
Shuttles could be given a bonus -- 50% reduction in warp-in distance, or something. Freighters too, I guess.
Or maybe this is something which would be well-suited for rigs? Do freighters have rig slots?
-- Admiral Derrys Otireya Commander, Fleet Operations, Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Fleet Admiral, Kimotoro Directive |
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2006.08.28 18:49:00 -
[21]
Mebbe a hi slot thatt akes you within 1500 meters, a midslot that takes you within 5000 and lowslot within 7500. A low and a med together would take you within 1500.
I doubt there is a perfect solution to the "insta problem", but I would rather see the game not need instas. - - - -- - - - -- - - - -- - - - Little known fact: If DS had RL money, he would have lost it in Enron. |
Rashmika Sky
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Posted - 2006.08.29 02:12:00 -
[22]
Easy way to eliminate instas to stations, gates, etc: Have Concord consider it criminally reckless to warp in closer than 15km from such structures, perhaps due to the large amount of ship traffic in those areas. In other words, Concord will attack people that insta to stations, stargates, whatever. Then, give people a skill or module that allows them to do this "safely". Concord won't blow them up because this skill or module allows this to be done in a safe manner. If somebody warps to a gang member and comes in too close, Concord will ignore it, the reason being that the gang member that is warped to must provide information on where the other person should warp to, so it's still considered safe. Not saying this is what should be done, it's just an idea. -Rash
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Shadowace Evi
Gallente A.W.M Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.08.29 19:26:00 -
[23]
I like the idea, because having to do 30 jumps is a real pain and is boring
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Kaomi Zorbaz
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Posted - 2006.08.29 20:10:00 -
[24]
Couldnt they work at this from a different angle? instead of hundreds of instas, why not make super gates that will send you region to region in a single jump? Thus you arent stuck going through 20 gates to get into another region? Yeah the pirates will camp the low sec end of the gate, but that is part of the game, deal with it.
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bolloxim
Caldari Stainless Steel Rats
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:05:00 -
[25]
Edited by: bolloxim on 31/08/2006 03:11:17
Originally by: Rashmika Sky Easy way to eliminate instas to stations, gates, etc: Have Concord consider it criminally reckless to warp in closer than 15km from such structures, perhaps due to the large -Rash
pretty dumb idea..
just like mine
anyway all CCP needs to code to fix insta's is to put a 'warpbubble' that cancels warp when slowing down, soon as its within 15km of a structure you hit a brickwall and break your neck..
but not as bad as the idea for slowing travel down to most ships at 120m/s knowing that its going to take 3 minutes to get to the friggin gate!!! when multiplied by 10 we get 30minutes of pure gate travelling time. plus warp time.. what a nice time to spend an hour ;)
A warp targeting module works for me, sacrifice a hi-slot no problem for 1500m target range, even modulate that with a skill. to narrow beam down the range.
one thing to remember though... would ALL warping end up that accurate? how about deadspace ? bm's to roids ? cans ? etc
bollo
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Edania
Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kaomi Zorbaz Couldnt they work at this from a different angle? instead of hundreds of instas, why not make super gates that will send you region to region in a single jump? Thus you arent stuck going through 20 gates to get into another region? Yeah the pirates will camp the low sec end of the gate, but that is part of the game, deal with it.
these were actually removed from game to regionalise the markets so that the whole world and his wife didnt simply go to yulai for there shopping.
Quote: my Clone was excelent, i just had too many skillpoints
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 15:49:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/09/2006 15:55:05
Originally by: Charok Here is all you need to do.
Give everyone the ability to jump to 0k from anything and leave the bookmarks in.
Yep - All vets use instas, and who is kidding who with this warp to 15km nonsence. Make it 0km or the game will eventually kneel over witht he weight of bookmarks
Originally by: Charok
Cant gate camp? hmm go kill a pos.
Ahh but BM's are still in the game - The reason why CCP took this drastic action is that 2 Disgraceful Alliances took the mickey by making invincible pos's and invinceble gatecamps via exploiting the way the grid loads up. Whats this, you and your mates are gatecamping in frigs and a 20 man fleet warps in to crush you? Never fear, lets exploit the gatecamp by making the grid take 5 mins to load up so the 20 man fleet cannot activate a module or do anything to defend themselves! Oh dear, your POS is under attack and all you have is a ibis? Never fear, lets make the pos invincible by exploiting the grid system and laugh as the attackers dreads get frozen by lag for 5-10mins and slowly get killed by POS guns before they activate seige mode!
Now - here is the smartass moment - The exploiting pos/gatecamp's are still there!
--- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Kithron
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Posted - 2006.09.02 15:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kithron on 02/09/2006 15:46:43 I'm really at a loss as to why bookmarks are causing so much trouble. It has a text field for the name of the bookmark, a size 3 floating point array for the location in the system, text fields for region, constellation, solar system. They should be the smallest item in the database as a result. Why then is there so much overhead in creating/copying them? Sounds like someone borked the code there. Of course, I could be wrong and the volume of BM related actions could be exponentially higher than everything else combined, but somehow I doubt it.
edited for bad spelling.
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The Doct0r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.03 11:34:00 -
[29]
An Easier option would be to only allow BM's to be copied in one system per region.
Make it so:
1) All the copy systems are sited on a dedicated node (or two) 2) Each system is a dead end one. 3) Only object in the system is one Station (no belts, moons, or anything else) 4) Station services to only include Escrow 5) make it a 0.5 sec (keep some of the low sec guys n gals happy in empire and obviously it doesn't make any difference out in 0.0!!)
Creation of BM's stays the same, but by moving the copying to dedicated solar systems, you - in theory - should free up a lot of the cpu load from normal systems thus cutting down on that nasty lag effect we all so love!
Sure, if you're a BM copier you're gonna have to suffer with major lag when copying, but at least you will still be able to.
End Result:
Copying is still allowed No need for new modules No need for a new skill Rest of Eve should suffer less from Lag (apparently )
This ain't gonna please certain people, but it would seem to be the simplest solution (except for the guys that have to program in all the changes ) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Always ready to perform!!!! *cough*
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Always back up comments with hard facts |
Lady Brykor
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Posted - 2006.09.03 14:34:00 -
[30]
i like the idea of "Super Gates" that would send you region to region. I also like the idea of a module/skill that does the "safe-warp" thing, tho i think it should be a basic skill if its ever gonna be implemented.
Mebbe you could have a time limit on the region jumps due to "body stress caused by stray warp particles beating your ass in really good on the way there" or make region to region jumps take a certain amount of time, say 5 mins - it would still be quicker than a 30 minute jump route
What do u guys think?
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