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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1363
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Posted - 2014.11.15 13:05:46 -
[1] - Quote
This conversation, has been doing the rounds and it is time to bring it to the forums.
We now have a significant increase in the number of signatures to scan. Whilst there are many benefits to this, scanners, (pretty much all of us) are finding it all a little overwhelming and just too much of a good thing.
The time taken to scan down a chain has grown exponentially, and the astrometrics aquisition skill is literaly a drop in the great ocean in terms of help.
The proposal is independent of mechanic best suited to provide help, so please do not focus too much on that, but suggestions are welcome.
A modest proposal
Dear CCP we welcome all the improvements you are providing, and they bode well for the future. We are starting to suffer from the secondary effects of these desireable changes however.
Whilst we do not expect our daily/ hourly task of scanning to be easy, we do wish that it did not require us to do it ALL our play session.
There is a significant time required for each scan pass, and with many many signatures to scan, could we please have a Significant! Reduction to this built in time delay mechanic, for Core probes and Sisters core probes? There once may have been a reason for the delays, but those reasons are lost in time, and there is no longer a need for it. Quite the opposite applies.
We are not asking for combat Probe scan time to benefit from this reduction however, as this is a far more focused and limited task.
This would be a massive quality of life improvement, as there is no benefit of the Game play by including delays in the current environment. And no harm will be caused by their removal.
It's removal or a significant reduction will benefit, all players, everywhere.
Thank you for listening.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
753
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Posted - 2014.11.15 13:58:16 -
[2] - Quote
A normal covopsfit takes 4 or 5 seconds for each scan. If you add to that the time for repositioning, those 4-5 seconds become really short.
And if you're really interested in scanning that chain ASAP, dualboxing scanners in two different holes might rather tbe the way to go instead of accelerating scanning to a point where people can ninjascan your relic without a chance to notice (hitting the travel+4secs for a dscan is already quite unlikely).
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1364
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Posted - 2014.11.15 18:12:40 -
[3] - Quote
Hi, I really didn't think anyone could find a downside on core probes, combats sure, but core?
I guess that if there is only one signature in the system, and you were lucky enough do get the person in one sweep and they were pretty casual about dscan, reducing the timer might make the difference. The probes are visible either way. But could happen i agree.
But bearing in mind that ejecting probes, sweeping them out of the plane, dropping them exactly on the site, pulling them, and warping to the victim, without them seeing them, halving the actual scanning delay, isn't going to make a bit of difference when combining a scanning expert at his best and a lazy dscanner.
You are going to get him either way when the difference in abilities is so vast, the scan delay would not change that. And he may well be somewhere else anyway, you would use combat probes if that skillful and not waste your time. And the proposal is not to reduce combat scanning delay.
But the inbuilt delay of beep beep beep then sweep sweep sweep, every time, again and again three or 4 times per sig, signature after signature, hole after hole. IS burning out scanners, especially as there is so much more to scan down.
The mechanic had it's place once, scanning was an elite, rare, expert skill, then oddysey came, everything changed, it became mainstream.
The delay does not make scanning more expert, or more rewarding, it is just an unpleasant mechanic that has had it's day. By all means keep the delay on the first sweep, but it really is not needed EVERY time the scan button is pressed.
Would that resolve this individual possibility you identify?
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Agatir Solenth
Servants of the Throne Worlds
31
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Posted - 2014.11.15 21:26:25 -
[4] - Quote
I have to disagree. There isn't a need to grant someone the ability to knockout data/relic sites any faster. This would affect k-space a lot more than w-space. Scanning is the corner stone of life in w-space. BTW scanning in w-space is a lot easier now than it had ever been with mechanic changes, all the player made tools & knowledge databases.
First you want more sigs and larger chains...
Now there is too many? |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1364
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 21:47:16 -
[5] - Quote
Agatir Solenth wrote:I have to disagree. There isn't a need to grant someone the ability to knockout data/relic sites any faster. This would affect k-space a lot more than w-space. Scanning is the corner stone of life in w-space. BTW scanning in w-space is a lot easier now than it had ever been with mechanic changes, all the player made tools & knowledge databases.
First you want more sigs and larger chains...
Now there is too many? There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. We would not want in any way to lose the benefits we have received from the recent changes, they are good and appreciated.
It is a matter of balancing needs.
A HS explorer may find a relic site, 50 seconds faster, if he is good with maximum skills, all power to him and his weeks of training to do that, it is commended, and his reward is maybe worthwhile. Hardly gamebreaking.
Balance that against a worm hole resident wasting 90 minutes to two hours watching his screen go beep beep beep, interacting with nothing, pure mind numbing tedium. Focusing down on the signal is extra to that, that will still take a goodly time regardless.
This is a normal days experience for many BEFORE they can have any fun, how is that equitable?
Any rational person would question The balance of that equation, and we are.
We are not in any way ungrateful, naturally some look wistfully back to simpler times, but know they were not as fun as now, but the scanning delay is simply an old mechanic, outlived it's days when all space is now a signature rich environment, Ls,Null,HS and wormholes too, and now the fifth space as well, removing the artificial delay for core probes, will simply put things back in balance, and KS players will simply take as long to scan their system as they did in the past.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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RudinV
Hard Knocks Inc. Irresponsible Use of Capital.
455
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Posted - 2014.11.15 22:32:45 -
[6] - Quote
there is some skills for better scanning. |
Agatir Solenth
Servants of the Throne Worlds
31
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Posted - 2014.11.15 22:37:22 -
[7] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: It is a matter of balancing needs.
Balance that against a worm hole resident wasting 90 minutes to two hours watching his screen go beep beep beep, interacting with nothing, pure mind numbing tedium. Focusing down on the signal is extra to that, that will still take a goodly time regardless.
This is a normal days experience for many BEFORE they can have any fun, how is that equitable?
What are the sites are you not finding in 90 minutes of scanning? I guarantee you are finding a ton of sites to interact with in that 90 minutes. If you looking for pure pew, then take advantage of those low-sec and null-sec exits. I don't care what the mechanic is, if you think the only good fights are in w-space, then your suggested change won't balance anything.
That is my experience.
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3948
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Posted - 2014.11.15 23:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
No! Scanning is WAY too easy now as it is, please do NOT dumb it down even further. If you want to scan faster OP, I suggest you practice and learn how to do it.
Quote:Balance that against a worm hole resident wasting 90 minutes to two hours watching his screen go beep beep beep... How on earth do you scan?!?! Scanning takes like 5min per system average top, if that, so youre telling me you on average scan 18-24 systems by yourself per session and dont find anything? I'd recommend a) getting corp mates to help you scan and b) rolling empty chains before it gets to that point.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1364
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Posted - 2014.11.15 23:16:43 -
[9] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:No! Scanning is WAY too easy now as it is, please do NOT dumb it down even further. If you want to scan faster OP, I suggest you practice and learn how to do it. Quote:Balance that against a worm hole resident wasting 90 minutes to two hours watching his screen go beep beep beep... How on earth do you scan?!?! Scanning takes like 5min per system average top, if that, so youre telling me you on average scan 18-24 systems by yourself per session and dont find anything? I'd recommend a) getting corp mates to help you scan and b) rolling empty chains before it gets to that point. Jack, this is not about being good at scanning or not, we are talking about the artificial delay built into each scan cycle, you know just how time consuming scanning the chains down is, and how not knowing your chain is folly if not suicide.
There is no possible way to scan the wormholes identifying the worthless and important sites, setting bookmarks and identifying the POS, in system in five minutes, It may have been a while since you did that, and are satisfied to zip through looking for immidiate targets, but I am sure there are others who that job falls to. You may be fortunate enough for others to do the grunt work, preparing things for others to benefit when they sign on, or you may be the one doing it and taking one for the team, either way you must know it is a thankless job and an artificial delay every time you press that scan button does nothing for your or their enjoyment or engagement.
There's no need for stuff whose whole reason for existing is to make things miserable and the only skill, well out of date ( astrometrics aquisition) makes bugger all difference to it.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
99
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Posted - 2014.11.15 23:26:58 -
[10] - Quote
I WANT RSS COMBAT SCANNER PROBES |
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Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
541
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Posted - 2014.11.15 23:28:33 -
[11] - Quote
If your scanning skills are all at lvl 5s and you can't scan any wh system in less then 10mins your doing something wrong. With HG Virtues you should easily be able to scan any system in 5mins.
If you're complaining about scanning speed and don't have all lvl 5s get out.
Lvl 3 skills -> 30mins to scan a system Lvl 5 skills -> 5 mins to scan a system
The difference lvl 5 skills is WELL WORTH the training time!
Blue-Fire Best Fire
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1364
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 23:28:56 -
[12] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote:I WANT RSS COMBAT SCANNER PROBES
That's nice, it is not relevant to the mechanic that imposes an artificial delay to the scan cycle though. I hope you enjoy them, and they are as nice as you hope.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
99
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Posted - 2014.11.15 23:32:49 -
[13] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Ab'del Abu wrote:I WANT RSS COMBAT SCANNER PROBES That's nice, it is not relevant to the mechanic that imposes an artificial delay to the scan cycle though. I hope you enjoy them, and they are as nice as you hope.
True. Still, must needs have them! :P
EDIT: I created a thread in Features & Discussion. Please do support it :) |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1364
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 00:13:04 -
[14] - Quote
Aquila Sagitta wrote:If your scanning skills are all at lvl 5s and you can't scan any wh system in less then 10mins your doing something wrong. With HG Virtues you should easily be able to scan any system in 5mins.
If you're complaining about scanning speed and don't have all lvl 5s get out.
Lvl 3 skills -> 30mins to scan a system Lvl 5 skills -> 5 mins to scan a system
The difference lvl 5 skills is WELL WORTH the training time!
The post is not complaining about scanning. It is discussing a particular mechanic that had relevence pre oddysey and still hangs around.
Let us see 10 signatures, minimum 3 passes per signature (unless very lucky) or in a system with fat sigs. 10-15 sec artificial scan delay before resolving before next pass. Plus refining your probe position. That equals an absolute best, everything perfect of 10-15 mins per hole, and does not include bookmarking, finding POS identifying owners, intellgence gathering, updating mapper, warp time, launching and reloading probes for next hole, setting up safes and all the other jobs.
But that is all irrelevant.
The issue is is there a value in a mechanic that adds significant time to scanning multiple times for each signature, to scanning each and every signature. Especially as the number of signatures has risen exponentially. The mechanic adds 45 seconds to one minute for every single signature with perfect skills.
This is not an issue of "noob get good at scanning" it is about experienced wormholers, burning out from scanning, getting sick of it, as there is now so much to do, if you do the job properly , and a simple QOL improvement to ease the burden.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
863
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Posted - 2014.11.16 00:13:40 -
[15] - Quote
On the fence a bit - if you've got a decently trained character in the right ship/fit then its not too painful but if your scanning on a char that has so so skills and maybe not an all out scanning fit ship the recent changes can make it a bit tedious. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1364
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 00:15:18 -
[16] - Quote
Rroff wrote:On the fence a bit - if you've got a decently trained character in the right ship/fit then its not too painful but if your scanning on a char that has so so skills and maybe not an all out scanning fit ship the recent changes can make it a bit tedious.
Rolf, thanks, but the skills, and fittings, and ship don't change this part of the mechanic. Theres no problem with any of that, it is just the delay artificially introduced before the probes report each time, it REALLY adds up when your'e scanning a lot.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3951
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 02:27:51 -
[17] - Quote
Youre complaining about a slight delay in scan cycle because you BM every single site in a system and hence believe you cant fully scout a system in 5min? Look, no offence but saying something like 'you cant scout a system in 5min' just makes you sound like an incompetent scout, it does not show there's an issue with the cycle time on probes. You absolutely CAN fully scout a system within 5 min pretty damn easily and saying otherwise is either ignorant or just wrong.
PS: I scout regularly and know MANY scouts just as fast. you should look to your methods before blaming the mechanics.
Also, THIS:
Ab'del Abu wrote:I WANT RSS COMBAT SCANNER PROBES
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
541
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Posted - 2014.11.16 02:34:41 -
[18] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Let us see 10 signatures, minimum 3 passes per signature (unless very lucky) or in a system with fat sigs. 10-15 sec artificial scan delay before resolving before next pass. Plus refining your probe position. That equals an absolute best, everything perfect of 10-15 mins per hole...
You obviously have bad skills or don't know how to scan properly. Start at 8au to get single dot then move to 2au to id what kind of sig it is. This is 2 scans on average for every sig, 3 if you're unlucky.
I just scanned a wh with 22 sigs in just over 6 mins scanning all wh's to 100%. I would have posted a video of me scanning it but I lost my video editing software when my hd died earlier this month. There was only 1 sig I had to do 3 passes on to id it. The rest that took 2+ scans were wh's being scanned to 100%.
Another thing to note is that scan duration is 4secs when you have lvl5 and the t2 mod. probes warping around usually take longer then the actual scan for me.
Blue-Fire Best Fire
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Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
160
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Posted - 2014.11.16 02:35:05 -
[19] - Quote
I like this idea alot, it would definitely stop me using combat probes by default and since this speed is pretty much the same regardless of skill it isn't 'dumbing' scanning down simply making it less tedious.
C6 Wormhole blog
http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3951
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Posted - 2014.11.16 02:41:57 -
[20] - Quote
Wait a sec.... Now that ive actually read over all the posts here, do you people actually use the preset probe formations? I'd be seriously interested to know if you do because it's the only way I can see scanning taking 2-3 scan cycles per sig.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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Athanor Ruthoern
united system's commonwealth
16
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Posted - 2014.11.16 08:49:27 -
[21] - Quote
Okay I think I can see where you are on different pages.
There is a difference from scanning down a system for PvP and a system for PvE. yes it quick to sweep a system for PVP you descan and it a ya or no. If it is a no you scan the system for wormholes and do not scan the rest of the signatures to 100%. But if your scanning your static with 20-30 signatures for pve you want to know if the gas site is an instrumental or a vast. You will scan down all the data banks and the Relics sites to 100% so you can run them. If you have good skill but not perfect you need your probes down to 0,5 to scan down the smallest sigs to 100%. When you scanned down your static you also need to jump into theconnecting wormholes and check for activity maybe make a quick scan sweep of the system and find the wormholes and jump in and check descan. Then you can go back to doing your pve if all is in order. This easely takes 30-45 min before you can start on doing pve.
I am sure all this workload before doing pve is discouragin people from running sites in wormholes. If shortening the scanning time increases the population of wormhole space I am all for it. It would also make my life a little easier.
OP is not asking for it to be removed but reducing it for the sake of PvE. But yes it will also make it faster to scan down the wormholes in the system but this does not make any imbalance in PvP as this is not for combat unless your in a hostile hole being combat scanned and need to scan your way out or something like that. Mostly it will just mean targets faster.
I for one do approve of the suggestion. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out Black Legion.
1264
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Posted - 2014.11.16 09:23:45 -
[22] - Quote
Athanor Ruthoern wrote: for the sake of PvE.
Even for PVE it doesn't take 30 minutes.
As the sites not worth your time you can narrow down at like 4au and easily eliminate them.
Once you get down to the smaller sigs you know you have found the better PVE anoms...
Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
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Athanor Ruthoern
united system's commonwealth
16
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Posted - 2014.11.16 09:56:28 -
[23] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Athanor Ruthoern wrote: for the sake of PvE. Even for PVE it doesn't take 30 minutes. The sites not worth your time you can narrow down at like 4au and easily eliminate them. Once you get down to the smaller sigs you know you have found the better PVE anoms...
Well I have to go down to 2 AU to get the low worth gas type. I do not have scannign implants and am using normal scanning ship and scanning skills are 5/4/4/4.
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
753
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Posted - 2014.11.16 10:04:27 -
[24] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Wait a sec.... Now that ive actually read over all the posts here, do you people actually use the preset probe formations? I'd be seriously interested to know if you do because it's the only way I can see scanning taking 2-3 scan cycles per sig.
Drop CCP preset formation 8 AU on celestial, drop 2 AU probes on all the red dots, drop .5AU on everything that wasn't gas or a k162?
Like in 2 of 3 systems you just drop them at 8AU on the sun and you got half of the system's sigs as low-class gas sorted out already...
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1365
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Posted - 2014.11.16 10:32:34 -
[25] - Quote
Ok Guys, we are clearly doing different things and have different requirements for knowledge of our chains, this is not about epeen please.
When we are chasing down chains for quick pew, our scanning speed is at it's fastest, we want to speed through to the next hole as fast as posssible, and we disregard all but that. Of course we can blitz through that. However, after downtime, our scanners are preparing intel for those that follow, whilst pew if found is good, it is more important to know what is there for those that follow later, that takes time, we need to know the lot! Ideally 2/3 chains deep in full detail, routes after that, these days that is a craptonne of wormholes, we need to know every sig, every site, in those, so that later, when we see ships on dscan, we know where they are likely to be and we are not dropping probes and scaring them off!
Are we all on the same page now?
Now, whether we call it probes warping or scan delay, or the effects of BOB, after pressing the scan button there is a delay of 10-15 seconds after pressing each and every pass. Whilst it beeps and warbles.
All Skills to 5, implants, infinite experience, and an enormous E-peen, do not reduce that time in any significant manner.
The proposal is to reduce the artificial delay for core probes, after the scan button is pressed. As simple as that.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
245
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 11:31:48 -
[26] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Now, whether we call it probes warping or scan delay, or the effects of BOB, after pressing the scan button there is a delay of 10-15 seconds after pressing each and every pass. Whilst it beeps and warbles.
That delay is 4.5 seconds + the few seconds it takes for probes to warp. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1365
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 11:33:59 -
[27] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Now, whether we call it probes warping or scan delay, or the effects of BOB, after pressing the scan button there is a delay of 10-15 seconds after pressing each and every pass. Whilst it beeps and warbles.
That delay is 4.5 seconds + the few seconds it takes for probes to warp.
Press the button and add them together, actually time it, with max skills, minimum 10 maximum 15 (will test thera today possibly more) that is the delay between each sweep.
Doesn't matter what you call them, how you split them, that is the actual time.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
245
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 11:43:16 -
[28] - Quote
I timed it, and the scan cycle is exactly 4.5 seconds + few seconds it takes for probs to warp, average for 10 sweeps was 6.9 seconds.
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1365
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 11:46:38 -
[29] - Quote
How on earth do you get 6.9 seconds? Astrometrics aquisition V mid slot scan aquisition array, cannot get near that quick to report after pressing analyse?
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3951
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 11:48:10 -
[30] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:I timed it, and the scan cycle is exactly 4.5 seconds + few seconds it takes for probs to warp, average for 10 sweeps was 6.9 seconds. there are also mods to reduce it. did a quick check on my scanner and it's 4.05sec.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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