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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 20:34:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shadarle on 29/08/2006 20:34:48 Edited by: Shadarle on 29/08/2006 20:34:17 I have created a spreadsheet of my own which allows me to input modules and their stats and then to calculate how much tanking ability a ship can handle with any combination of those mods.
Currently I've recorded the numbers for a wide array of mods on a Raven as this is the ship I currently fly and could test each set of numbers to make sure the numbers my spreadsheet yielded matched in-game values. They did, so I should be ready to begin working on other ships now. I will be adding to this list as I have the time, if people find it helpful. (Note, I currently only have support for shield tanks (active/passive). I am not sure if I will be adding armor tanking to my spreadsheet or not)
Sorted from lowest Max Tank to highest Max Tank:
Ship --Avg --Max --Med --Low Raven01393 inv, 1 sba2 pds Raven24.5145.22 inv, 2 sba2 pds Raven68.3170.72 amp, 2 sba2 pds Raven13.6173.23 inv, 1 sba3 pds Raven36.4174.92 inv, 2 sba3 pds Raven78.3195.64 amp2 pds Raven78.3195.92 amp, 2 sba3 pds Raven60.4199.22 hard, 2 sba2 pds Raven502092 inv, 2 sba4 pds Raven29.3212.53 inv, 1 sba4 pds Raven89.8224.54 amp3 pds Raven89.9224.72 amp, 2 sba4 pds Raven74233.32 hard, 2 sba3 pds Raven48238.54 hard2 pds Raven47.3257.53 inv, 1 sba5 pds Raven103257.64 amp4 pds Raven103.2257.92 amp, 2 sba5 pds Raven89.7272.52 hard, 2 sba4 pds Raven72.2272.92 inv, 2 sba5 pds Raven97.2273.92 hard, 2 shldext5 pds Raven98.2276.42 hard, 2 capbat5 pds Raven66.8285.44 hard3 pds Raven118.2295.64 amp5 pds Raven107.7317.42 hard, 2 sba5 pds Raven119.4329.32 hard, 2 caprech5 pds Raven88.3339.14 hard4 pds Raven109.1368.74 hard3 pds 2 cpr Raven110.9383.94 hard4 pds 1 cpr Raven112.9400.84 hard5 pds
*Average/Max values listed are the actual damage per second your tank can withstand forever (in theory). DPS numbers for npcs can be found on several websites such as EVEInfo.
**A value of 0 means you don't have enough cap regen to maintain this tank
*** For simplicity sake I did my calculations using only the best of each type of mod (T2, or named) to show the best you can hope to achieve. I also used Gurista's as the default enemy for resistance purposes (thus I only factored in therm/kin resists and used therm/kinetic hardeners/amplifiers).
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 21:40:00 -
[2]
*** Saved for future additions ***
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Sphynx Stormlord
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Posted - 2006.08.29 21:51:00 -
[3]
It would be nice to have a key to all your abbriviations please?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 22:03:00 -
[4]
Done.
If I left any out just let me know and I'll add it in. If you have any other questions, please ask. If you would like me to calculate values based on a different ship with specific mods, just list them out and I'll try to get around to it ASAP and I'll add it to the list
Sorry the list isn't easier to read... the forums use variable text sizing so a period is a different width than a letter and some letters are wider than others. I will try to figure out a way to compensate for this the best I can... I've already built a fairly simple solution into my spreadsheet as you can probably tell.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 22:43:00 -
[5]
I just found a glaring problem, all Ferox results are under-scored currently. I will be fixing the problem and will update the list ASAP with the new values.
Also, I am using default skill levels of 4 for any skill questions. Such as for passive shield resist skills, battlecruiser skill, shield/cap skills, etc. I also included 3% hardwirings for shields.
I really really need to find a way to lay out my table better... perhaps using HTML code because all those period's I'm using for spacing take up my character limit way too quickly and I didn't expect to need that many more posts reserved. If anyone has ideas let me know.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.30 01:50:00 -
[6]
Problem fixed. The ferox numbers jumped a lot, they should now be correct.
I may try making my table into a graphic file and hosting it online for people to view... it will be a lot nicer on the eyes that way. But until then I am really curious if people have anything they'd like to see, etc.
It seems active tanked ferox's are slightly stronger than passive tanked ones... very interesting to see. The raven is still a better tanker though, even saving one mid slot for an afterburner on the Raven. If someone is curious how much better the raven would be with that slot used for tanking I'll put it in the list next time.
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Foxtrot986
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.30 03:59:00 -
[7]
Awesome post
I will definitely use this as a reference as I will soon be flying a ferox. Thx a bunch!!
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Zakgram
Apocalyptic Raiders Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.30 07:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Zakgram on 30/08/2006 07:43:25
Originally by: Shadarle But until then I am really curious if people have anything they'd like to see, etc.
2 hard, 1 invuln, 2 amp, whatever booster you're using as base 3 pds II, 1 internal force field
for the hardners, can you try both em&therm, and ballistic&therm?
Thanks :)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.30 09:02:00 -
[9]
"2 hard, 1 invuln, 2 amp, whatever booster you're using as base 3 pds II, 1 internal force field"
Unfortunately using multiple types of resist mods is not possible with my spreadsheet yet. I'm working on it, but it takes quite a bit of math to get it working in the versatile format I have it in now. I'm going to do my best to get this in asap though.
"for the hardners, can you try both em&therm, and ballistic&therm?"
I can do any combination of resists and average them all out, or list the dps you can take from each type. But using the current format I don't have even remotely enough room to list every combination here. I am trying to figure out a better way to list it, but I can list specific setups if you give me one you specifically want to compare to the others in that list already.
"Since most missions are now doing 3-4 damage types, when you pick your figures which resists are you picking for deciding how much damage a ship can take?"
I use Therm/Kin resists currently, Gurista resists.
Missions are now doing 3-4 damage types? Since when? Almost no missions do 4 damage types as far as I can tell... especially not level 3's. Angel missions will do 5% EM and a similar amount of thermal, but those are such small amounts it won't make a large difference in any calculations. I can list the average tank over all 4 resists types, but I am pretty sure no missions do 25% dmg to all types... more likely is 60% to one type, 30% to another and 5% to the other two (about what angel's do from memory).
I do plan to scew my resists to the exact percentages of each damage type each enemy group uses, but getting the stacking resist mods working is my first priority :)
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174http://myeve.eve-online.com/i |
Captain Strange
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Posted - 2006.08.30 14:53:00 -
[10]
I don't know if this will help, but I did something a bit like this a while ago in a spreadsheet I made for myself to calculate the best hardener configs for any battleship, given the module load out, on the worst situations of various missions (or at least what I thought were the worst).
It works in a similar way, you select what cap mods you have how many you are using in the ship for both armour and shield tanking, then it calculates all the permutations of hardeners, and calculated their final stacked resists, for the remaining slots and works out which config is best to tank the dps from each mission. It also takes into account how much cap recharge you have and has a guess at how much you can tank sustainably (at max recharge).
It's a bit limited, it doesn't include Nos's or cap boosters and it's only for battleships nor did I allow for all passive tanking. Most of the calculation is done in VB code so that means macro's need to be enabled to see it in action. It's getting beyond the scope of a spreadsheet so I went no further with it.
Heres the file anyway:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0608/Eve_Battleship_Tank.zip
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.30 17:32:00 -
[11]
That's a very interesting spreadsheet you have there.
I don't have any knowledge of VB, thus mine is entirely spreadsheet based. I am using excel formulas to do everything so far... which is why there are a few things I havn't yet figured out how to calculate correctly. (stacking resists causing diminishing returns on the weakest module for example)
I did, however, manage to do a lot of things I didn't expect to be able to do. Such as, I have a list of ships with stats... then you type in the ship name you are using and it pulls the stats from the ship list. Then you can enter up to 4 configs per ship, selecting which config is active by entering a 1-4 in one box. It then spits out basically every bit of information regarding the ship, including Pre-resist tankage... average resist tankage, per type resist based tankage, etc.
I didn't tie it into my missile spreadsheet yet, but I want to... so I can compare DPS & Tankage together to see which yields the highest combination. Unfortunately that won't help gun users, but I'd like to add that at some point as well. Basically the only limitation of my program is that I have to manual record the results any time I change something... so it can be time consuming to have to update a lot of previous calculations.
I think people will find this more interesting once I've added DCS support, to prove once and for all if they are worth using or not compared to another PDS. Same for stacking resist mods (1 invuln, 2 hardeners) etc.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174http://myeve.eve-online.com/i |
Captain Strange
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Posted - 2006.08.30 19:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadarle which is why there are a few things I havn't yet figured out how to calculate correctly. (stacking resists causing diminishing returns on the weakest module for example)
Is the problem you are having, automatically sorting the hardeners resists in descending order without explicitly telling the spreadsheet to sort them? If so I may have a solution.
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Zakgram
Apocalyptic Raiders Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.30 21:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle
"Since most missions are now doing 3-4 damage types, when you pick your figures which resists are you picking for deciding how much damage a ship can take?"
I use Therm/Kin resists currently, Gurista resists.
Missions are now doing 3-4 damage types? Since when? Almost no missions do 4 damage types as far as I can tell... especially not level 3's. Angel missions will do 5% EM and a similar amount of thermal, but those are such small amounts it won't make a large difference in any calculations. I can list the average tank over all 4 resists types, but I am pretty sure no missions do 25% dmg to all types... more likely is 60% to one type, 30% to another and 5% to the other two (about what angel's do from memory).
An example of a mission my agent loves giving me, 3 jumps from my storage base:
http://eveinfo.com/missions/209/eve-online-silence-the-informant
Guristas resists are great if you're seeing lots of guristas; although I'm caldari and in caldari space I appear to be getting lots of gallente action from missions like Enemies Abound. Those hurt most since the default resists of 0% em mean I have to focus on that.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 01:13:00 -
[14]
"Guristas resists are great if you're seeing lots of guristas; although I'm caldari and in caldari space I appear to be getting lots of gallente action from missions like Enemies Abound. Those hurt most since the default resists of 0% em mean I have to focus on that."
I completely understand that tanking values for gurista resists don't help too much against Angels/Sansha/etc. But it does give you an idea of what setups yield the best results in general. I may list all 4 resists in a future iteration of my table above so that people can see exactly how well they can tank verse every type with any given setup. Then I'll list which resist mods I used to get those results.
What this kind of list also does is it allows you to compare a ferox's passive tank to an active ferox tank or to an active raven tank. I hope to add in the ability to compare DPS as well eventually using missiles initially (since I'm a caldari pilot and already made up a missile spreadsheet for myself).
"Is the problem you are having, automatically sorting the hardeners resists in descending order without explicitly telling the spreadsheet to sort them? If so I may have a solution."
No, the problem is counting how many resist mods of a given type I have and then multiplying each by the correct amount of stacking penalty and also adding them together correctly.
If I was simply making a resist spreadsheet it would be easier, but because it is part of an existing spreadsheet I tried to make it fit in nice and pretty... and that has made it much harder. I think I'll be able to figure it out... my only issue is the 3 line long function that will be required (and thats at 1600x1200 resolution). So if I ever want to modify it I will be confused as hell whenever I look at the damned thing, heh. **********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Tyler Lowe
Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:59:00 -
[15]
Nice post.
You mentioned you were having issue with deminishing returns on stacked hardeners, so I hate to add one more headache to your list, but damage controls should be included. To limit the number of listings, I would use strictly the top DCU, but they are an important module for shield tanking, especially for Angel missions where multiple damage types will have to be tanked. J.A.F.O.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:48:00 -
[16]
I just recently read that Damage Controls don't suffer from the stacking penalty... which is a bit odd I know. I did a single test of it and it seemed to show this as correct. If you test it and find that they do suffer from the stacking penalty please let me know... but atm I am under the impression they are not included.
They do suffer from the resistant diminishing returns, such that at 50% resists a 10% module will only give 5% more, yielding 55%... but other modules also suffer from the stacking penalty. Perhaps I mispoke about the exact problem I was having before :) Both cause problems for formulas but the stacking penalty is the tougher of the two. **********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:07:00 -
[17]
Updated the original post with Cerberus information and DCS's.
Using Therm/Kin for the Cerb is a bit unfair because of it's massive boost in those two fields... when I figure out a way to show other resists as well the Cerb will lose a bit of its luster.
I find it interesting that DCS's seem to do worse than PDS's when used with active hardeners and do better than PDS's when used with passive hardeners. Good to know though.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Magnus Card
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:16:00 -
[18]
You should try using a Vulture just to see what numbers you get.
I put a set up here that you may find interesting
Vulture passive tanking
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:37:00 -
[19]
Wow... the vulture is a god of a tank vs Therm/Kin.
Atm I'm seeing 401/1003 avg/max tank with the first setup I tried. I'll add a few vulture setups next time I update the list... but atm the list has reached the boundries of the first post, so I need to figure out a new way to do this. I think I should probably make a new post with ~10 saved posts and then spread out the different types of ships... unless someone has a better idea?
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Maverick Aeldrin
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Posted - 2006.09.03 09:36:00 -
[20]
I've been building a spreadsheet to make tanking for my gang much easier and faster.
My normal process was to look up the mission in eveinfo.com/missions/ Figure out which gate did the most damage Compare with my resists for what I guessed would be the most efficient build then tell gang mates what missiles/drones to use.
The process could take as long as 20 minutes of sitting and waiting for them.
Now... I choose the mission from a drop-down list and i'm done inside of 10 seconds.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=388267
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.03 22:25:00 -
[21]
I'll take a look at that :)
I'd love to learn how to use drop downs and such in excel... once I can learn to use macro's/VB I can make my spreadsheet much more dynamic :)
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.04 17:51:00 -
[22]
I've played around with numbers for a Scorpion and it can actually out-tank a Raven in some instances. Very interesting to play with.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Waenn Ironstaff
Caldari Colossus Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.04 18:29:00 -
[23]
And your opinion on Ferox Active Tanking versus Passive? (with rails in mind)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.05 02:10:00 -
[24]
I just updated my spreadsheet to allow for any combination of resist modules, Actives/Passives/Invulns/DCS. So I plan to work on missiles/guns next... is there anything I should know about power usage of rails beyond the listed numbers and skills? I know I will could factor in the 10s reload time... though I'm not sure if that is really a good thing to factor or not, since you will be burning more energy for quite a while and it may give a higher tanking number.
In any case, I'd say a ferox with guns will probably would probably tank better with a passive tank, assuming you have enough cap to maintain it. If you run out of cap or have to sacrifice SPR's for PDS's then an active tank is your best bet... active would certainly be easier to do, just use the shield booster less if you are low on cap. But I will have some hard numbers for you as soon as I can.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.05 11:52:00 -
[25]
ôWow... the vulture is a god of a tank vs Therm/Kin.ö DonÆt forgot anyone flying a Vulture will most likely have a mindlink and gang assist active both of which boost the passive tank a lot.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Pottsey
Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.05 12:50:00 -
[26]
ôIf you run out of cap or have to sacrifice SPR's for PDS's then an active tank is your best bet...ö Unless youÆre doing PvP then the PDS are best. Your numbers are very useful but there are a few problems. Your not taking into account hitpoints or the HP regen curve. Having high hitpoints means you spend longer at a high regen. ThatÆs why extenders are often better then shield recharges. Say someone hits my PDS ship for 1000 hitpoints I might drop from 33% regen to 32% regen while a shield relay ship would drop from 33% to 29% lowering its regen. So higher hitpoints mean you take longer to get down to 30% and you spend longer in the area of high regen 15 to 60%+.
In short to medium battles your better off with hitpoint based setups. In long battles or battles where you tank holds regen is better. Its not a clear-cut case of shield relays are better then PDS. It all depends on your enemy.
If you really want to compare ships you have to add hitpoints into the formula.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.05 13:04:00 -
[27]
Can you factor in a Vulture too pls?
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.09.05 13:08:00 -
[28]
Im confused. How can we tell what shield booster you are using?
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.05 17:14:00 -
[29]
"Im confused. How can we tell what shield booster you are using?"
Just added that into my 2nd post now, it must have been deleted when my first post got too long and cut off some text. Thanks for bringing it up.
"Unless youÆre doing PvP then the PDS are best. Your numbers are very useful but there are a few problems. Your not taking into account hitpoints or the HP regen curve. Having high hitpoints means you spend longer at a high regen. ThatÆs why extenders are often better then shield recharges. Say someone hits my PDS ship for 1000 hitpoints I might drop from 33% regen to 32% regen while a shield relay ship would drop from 33% to 29% lowering its regen. So higher hitpoints mean you take longer to get down to 30% and you spend longer in the area of high regen 15 to 60%+."
As I said in the other post you claimed this in, you don't understand the big picture. You're seeing only one part of the chain reaction caused by adding an extender. You need to think multiple steps ahead when figuring out which tank is stronger.
By adding an extender you are sacrificing a resist mod or shield boost amp (the other other mids worth using really). This means that to get the added shield HP you're sacrificing resists or shield boosting bonus. This means that although your max regen area is larger, you leave that area quicker.
The proportional gain you get for having a large max regen area is offset by the proportionally higher damage you take or the proportionally less shield regen you have.
Adding a shield extender increases your shield regen by the proportion of the added HP to the base HP. However, on an active tank, you should have a much higher cap regen than shield regen because shield boosters are not 1:1 efficient (unless you're using a horrible one, which is just a waste of time). Gaining 100 cap regen is eqaul to gaining 150 shield regen at base values (even bigger difference with amps/better boosters).
I've looked at this from more angles than you realize and the added hp doesn't mean anything. If you take less damage or regen proportionally faster than the added hp it means you are able to last longer which means you have a better tank.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.05 18:03:00 -
[30]
öBy adding an extender you are sacrificing a resist mod or shield boost amp (the other other mids worth using really). This means that to get the added shield HP you're sacrificing resists or shield boosting bonus. This means that although your max regen area is larger, you leave that area quicker.ö I never said anything about using more extenders. I meant using PDS over relays. Your numbers make PDS look worse but often they are better. Well not always.
öThe proportional gain you get for having a large max regen area is offset by the proportionally higher damage you take or the proportionally less shield regen you have.ö Did you even test that? First use PDS over shield relay and your not taking extra damage. As for the max regen area is offset by less shield regen thatÆs sometimes true sometimes not. All depends on the length of the battle and how much DPS you are taking from the enemy. See the other thread for more details.
öI've looked at this from more angles than you realize and the added hp doesn't mean anything. If you take less damage or regen proportionally faster than the added hp it means you are able to last longer which means you have a better tank.ö I think thatÆs the problem, at a guess I would say you only looking at this from lots of angles and not doing and real testing. Anyone who says added hp doesn't mean anything clearly hasnÆt looked at it from all the angles and has not done any real combat testing. I have and my results say sometimes HP regen is better sometimes Hitpoints are better. If the HP regen tank does not outlast the Hitpoint tank then itÆs not as good and there are plenty of examples and times when the HP regen tank dies first.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
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