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Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERYWHERE
69
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:13:00 -
[61] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:Aphoxema G wrote:If I swing my fist it's your fault you got hit because if you weren't in the way there would only have been insensitive air to punch.
Uh huh. You can stab me in the fists to stop me. Oh, and I'm also made of paper. Bad analogy for you to use.
It's a fair analogy. Stealth bombers can't jump after launching a bomb. I can't ECM someone and then jump.
Boo all you want, but launching a warp disrupt probe is an act of aggression and deserve the consequences of that decision.
Wouldn't you like to be my little PWNEE? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
396
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:13:00 -
[62] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:L'ouris wrote:As a non-dic pilot;
Could you explain at least some of the wrong?
My impression would be you bring another DIC with you instead of another DPS boat.
Not much, but at least a token step towards fleet diversification? A dictor has ZERO tanking ability. The second that somebody locks you, you will DIAF. So the primary directive to keep your dictor alive is DONT GET PRIMARIED. And if it even looks like you might be about to get locked you G.T.F.O. Flying a dictor is never about getting on the Kill, its about tackling hostiles and protecting your own gang by delaying someone pursuing you. What this change means is that if you drop a bubble to delay someone chasing you then you will no longer be able to run away - which is your primary defence mechanism. and the Dictor WILL die. Bring 2 dictors ? Great, now 2 dictors will die.
Apparently your dictor pilots suck, or your FC's do, or perhaps both. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
7
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:14:00 -
[63] - Quote
Aside from really killing double bubble gate tricks,
How does this kill the ability of a DIC to drop a bubble 40k off a gate after the fleet is in warp to slow down the enemy?
I suppose it can strand the DIC in system, but I'm not sure that is 'unfair' for the delay tactic.
Most of the good bubble work I've seen were pulled off before the enemy fleet was on grid with the DIC so the flying coffin defense doesn't seem to apply. In that regard the only thing thats changed is the ability to jump through a gate or dock, and I suppose I need more information as to why thats so horrid. |
Tore Vest
Vikinghall
97
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:14:00 -
[64] - Quote
We dont have any bubles in highsec... so i shouldn't care.. but... since nullbears are crying about highsec incursion :
WEll done CCP...... FINALY a change that make sense Those nullbears out there have it to easy.... Dont listen to them |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
2400
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:17:00 -
[65] - Quote
It's a good change, I like it.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Vincent Gaines
176
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
Aphoxema G wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:Aphoxema G wrote:If I swing my fist it's your fault you got hit because if you weren't in the way there would only have been insensitive air to punch.
Uh huh. You can stab me in the fists to stop me. Oh, and I'm also made of paper. Bad analogy for you to use. It's a fair analogy. Stealth bombers can't jump after launching a bomb. I can't ECM someone and then jump. Boo all you want, but launching a warp disrupt probe is an act of aggression and deserve the consequences of that decision. Then put me on the km no matter what. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
396
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:23:00 -
[67] - Quote
Dradius Calvantia wrote:Posting in a thread full of people who do not use, nor understand a dictor's role in small gang combat.
Previously, whether or not a dictor lives in small gang PVP depends solely on their ability to not be there when the shooting starts. It is some times feasible for a dictor to pull range after dropping a bubble, but most of the time a dictor's best course of action is to drop its bubble and jump out. This was an established game mechanic that was balanced by the fact that an alert enemy can prevent this from happening by purposely agressing the dictor's bubble when he drops it.
Dictors are extremely squishy and not an easy ship to fly. There are two reasons to comp one in a fleet over a HIC. One, is that a dictor can bubble one side of the gate, and then GTFO. The second is that a dictor can leave defensive bubbles to delay or split a larger pursuing fleet. The changes to bubble mechanics destroys both of the dictor's roles.
Not only does this destroy the dictor's role in small gang PVP, it is also a huge nerf to the tactics used by small gangs in order to skirmish with larger fleets.
Does flying a Dictor require skill? Yes.
Does a Dictors survival depend on being able to drop a bubble and jump? No, although it was a nice option (that no other ship in the game enjoys).
As for the two tactics you describe, they are valid currently but far from the only reason (or even primary reason) to bring a Dictor.
Usually the choice to bring a Dictor over a Hic is simple... what is your fleet composition? Dictors excel at traveling with fast moving gangs that are going to hit and run, Hictors do not.
Now it is true that the hit and run tactic is now inhibited (IE. the Dictor pilot can do it, but he'll be on the other side of the gate and left behind to fend for himself), with a fast moving gang the need for multiple gates to be bubbled behind them is minimal. One should do quite nicely, unless you were foolish enough to bring ships too slow to keep up.
So now the option to run with the safety blanket of bubbles behind you is less attractive. You either abandon your dictor to fend for himself, or you make a run for it without the bubbles. Frankly, the latter is more exciting for everyone anyway... and (thankfully) we'll see fewer slow vessels tagging along with what was intended to be a fast moving fleet. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
67
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
I think this is a great change. The double bubble trick has been abused for years and letting fleets run away has always pissed me off.
Adapt or die. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39006524/DumbHiseccers.jpg |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
105
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:24:00 -
[69] - Quote
I'm going to haver to agree with the other posters -- you deliberately launched an aggressive device. One presumes that you're not launching a warp-interdictor to go ice-mining. |
Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERYWHERE
69
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:Then put me on the km no matter what.
That's a fair request and I think you should push for that. It's true that interdictors take a greater risk and at least should warp away. I don't think they should be allowed to jump for an easy way out in addition to having superiority on the other side of a gate, but I don't think they should need to shoot anyone to be counted.
Wouldn't you like to be my little PWNEE? |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
396
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:28:00 -
[71] - Quote
Aphoxema G wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:Then put me on the km no matter what. That's a fair request and I think you should push for that. It's true that interdictors take a greater risk and at least should warp away. I don't think they should be allowed to jump for an easy way out in addition to having superiority on the other side of a gate, but I don't think they should need to shoot anyone to be counted.
Agreed. Blue KM's as well.
I can't think of a better way to determine who is a wise dictor pilot and who is an idiot that consistently gets his own fleet members killed. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Tore Vest
Vikinghall
97
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:I think this is a great change. The double bubble trick has been abused for years and letting fleets run away has always pissed me off. Adapt or die.
Yeah.... Its what they said about sc nerf
Adapt or die
|
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
409
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:30:00 -
[73] - Quote
can't say I like it
while it does address the bubble n run, it seems heavy handed and really makes a dictor's life harder that it needs to be
and this stuff about the KMs.
so what happens anyhow? you bubble and get a timer that lasts the entire time the bubble is active?
what if your bubble outlasts your timer? are you suddenly not agroing space anymore?
do you get on the kms now whenever you bubble in a fleet fight, I can't see how since you havent actually aggressed any one ship or do you simply aggress all ships on grid?
this appears to be a hot sticky mess rolled up in dung.
couldn't you guys just make non-anchored bubbles pop when the owner leaves grid? seems like that would satisfy the butthurt some DEV or CSM is all frothed up about to make such a questionable change and best of all it doesn't totally render the dictor useless The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
396
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:35:00 -
[74] - Quote
Morganta wrote:can't say I like it
while it does address the bubble n run, it seems heavy handed and really makes a dictor's life harder that it needs to be
and this stuff about the KMs.
so what happens anyhow? you bubble and get a timer that lasts the entire time the bubble is active?
what if your bubble outlasts your timer? are you suddenly not agroing space anymore?
do you get on the kms now whenever you bubble in a fleet fight, I can't see how since you havent actually aggressed any one ship or do you simply aggress all ships on grid?
this appears to be a hot sticky mess rolled up in dung.
couldn't you guys just make non-anchored bubbles pop when the owner leaves grid? seems like that would satisfy the butthurt some DEV or CSM is all frothed up about to make such a questionable change and best of all it doesn't totally render the dictor useless
You know, I could live with that too. Good suggestion.
I rather imagine the aggression time will work per normal, the pilot does his time and is free to jump unless someone tries to jump out of his bubble and resets the timer. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Vincent Gaines
176
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:37:00 -
[75] - Quote
This really does need dev clarification |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
10
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Posted - 2011.11.28 21:37:00 -
[76] - Quote
Should have happened a long time ago.
Now we just need RR/assistance also counted as aggression. |
Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERYWHERE
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:40:00 -
[77] - Quote
Morganta wrote:couldn't you guys just make non-anchored bubbles pop when the owner leaves grid?
At a glance I see that as a good idea, but the problem is it removes the risk of making a Bad Decision. If an interdictor fails to account for their allies arriving or don't plan a safe escape in advance then they should be held to the same consequence as a bomber or anything else who does the same.
Wouldn't you like to be my little PWNEE? |
Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERYWHERE
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:41:00 -
[78] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Should have happened a long time ago.
Now we just need RR/assistance also counted as aggression.
Seriously.
Wouldn't you like to be my little PWNEE? |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:41:00 -
[79] - Quote
Last I saw it was in Diff format some weeks back:
Unless the mechanics have changed, the launch of the bubble simply flags for aggression, so the timer starts, and I'd imagine it would extend if anyone tries to warp while in it like normal, else the timer expires. |
cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:43:00 -
[80] - Quote
I personally think this is a bad idea.
Like others have said, no more dropping bubbles to slow down persuing attackers. No more bubbling and jumping through a gate in fleet fights.
Anyone who has actually flown a paper thin dictor will understand how these changes are bad.
I guess all it means now is dictor pilots will drop bubble and cloak.....
What was the reasoning from ccp for this change? |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
396
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:44:00 -
[81] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Should have happened a long time ago.
Now we just need RR/assistance also counted as aggression.
+1.
Debate on this from either side is valid, but if you are RR/assisting someone it is because they have or are committing an act of aggression or are having aggression committed against them.
Your decision to RR/assist them makes you culpable as well, and the decision should have consequences. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERYWHERE
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:50:00 -
[82] - Quote
cBOLTSON wrote:Like others have said, no more dropping bubbles to slow down persuing attackers.
This does put an end to that tactic, unfortunately. Interdictors will just have to respond to threats the way any other ship would. It's not a defensive ship, it's an offensive ship with the purpose of stopping people from running away.
cBOLTSON wrote:No more bubbling and jumping through a gate in fleet fights.
That is an unfair tactic that removes the aggressor from harm in a way no other ship has the convenience of exploiting.
cBOLTSON wrote:Anyone who has actually flown a paper thin dictor will understand how these changes are bad.
Bad for abusive gameplay and people too afraid of consequences for their actions. I don't care how paper thin the ship is, it's purpose is to deploy a warp disruption field. If you want a little skin on top of that, get a HIC.
Wouldn't you like to be my little PWNEE? |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:52:00 -
[83] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Zagdul wrote:I mean... you just removed so many tactics from the game from this simple change I can't even count.
If you wanna make a change to it, make it so that anyone engaging warp in a dicter bubble, no matter where that bubble is refreshes the dicters aggression.
But on launch... that's dumb! So...... when YOU launch a dictor bubble you have no hostile intent. Would you be so kind as to list the benign reasons to launch a warp disruption probe? Yes, some tactics will have to change. Notice "change" does not equate with "remove".
Easy,
1: u are small fleet chased by bigger fleet, small fleet jumps in system, diter waits and pasive alighns until whole friendly fleet is of gate and bug bubble mwd out and warp next gate. Intention is slowing down big fleet
2: Range fleet (snipers), dictor puts bubble between range fleet and other fleet to prevent warpins
3: While reinforcing structures dicter bubbles prevent hostile fleet and hostile bomber warpins
4: Prevent using jumpbridges (if that still works?)
CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:54:00 -
[84] - Quote
Vircomore Amilupar wrote:Zagdul wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Hang on... you're complaining that taking a hostile action gets you a an aggression timer? LAUNCHING a bubble =/= agression. Someone warping in a dicter bubble does. And how many people do you know that choose to warp into a dictor bubble? That's like blaming a bombing victim for walking over the tripwire. You are placing an "attack" in space - to say "that's not a crime until it hits someone" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I do when:
1: there is a dum dictor on the gate and u want him to agroo so he cant jump, usualy when im in cloaky or with fleet.
CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:54:00 -
[85] - Quote
Aphoxema G wrote:cBOLTSON wrote:Like others have said, no more dropping bubbles to slow down persuing attackers. This does put an end to that tactic, unfortunately. Interdictors will just have to respond to threats the way any other ship would. It's not a defensive ship, it's an offensive ship with the purpose of stopping people from running away. cBOLTSON wrote:No more bubbling and jumping through a gate in fleet fights. That is an unfair tactic that removes the aggressor from harm in a way no other ship has the convenience of exploiting. cBOLTSON wrote:Anyone who has actually flown a paper thin dictor will understand how these changes are bad. Bad for abusive gameplay and people too afraid of consequences for their actions. I don't care how paper thin the ship is, it's purpose is to deploy a warp disruption field. If you want a little skin on top of that, get a HIC.
As far as I am aware every ship in eve can be used in any purpose it likes. There is no clear defensive or aggressive ship. Only what people do with them.
If everyone thinks this is a good change then I must have missed all of the talk and discussion on this topic....
Like I said the tactic is still viable, it just means the dictor pilot will have to be on his A game. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 21:56:00 -
[86] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Vircomore Amilupar wrote:Zagdul wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Hang on... you're complaining that taking a hostile action gets you a an aggression timer? LAUNCHING a bubble =/= agression. Someone warping in a dicter bubble does. And how many people do you know that choose to warp into a dictor bubble? That's like blaming a bombing victim for walking over the tripwire. You are placing an "attack" in space - to say "that's not a crime until it hits someone" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Exactly. The OP might have a point of if a warp disruption probe's effect was limited to merely stopping a ship from warping (not really, but lets be nice), however the fact that they can aggressively pull a ship out of warp if lined up properly means that ships could be pulled into a trap without any aggression flag activating on the launcher what-so-ever. This puts it squarely into the realm of an item that has offensive uses beyond simply stopping someone that tries to activate warp inside it's area of effect.
U are really stupid, does this mean if u anchor a mobile bubble for yourselve (not corp) u deserve to get 24/7 agroo?? CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 22:03:00 -
[87] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:More to the point, they decided they didn't like the tactic of dropping a bubble and then jumping through a gate or docking.
Granted, the tactic made a dictor pilots life easier, and allowed them to drop, jump thru a gate, and get set up on the other side quickly and safely.
Now a second dictor (or it's equivalent) will be needed to secure both sides of a gate. Also, dictor pilots will be committed to being on the side where their bubble is, and any ensuing combat.
This will have a small but noticeable effect on dictor fittings... and the tactics FC's use, as well as to fleet composition.
Your resoning is really flawed,
Your dictor needs 2 bubble launchers for this: there is timer between launching bubbles (tactik is gone: always agroo dictor bubbles) Your dictor loses dps and tank on this way Your dictor need atleast 1 scram and 2 webs to slow down anything that is not a T1 hauler preventing from burning back to the gate
Fail with capital F
I bet u never flown a dictor CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERYWHERE
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 22:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
cBOLTSON wrote:As far as I am aware every ship in eve can be used in any purpose it likes. There is no clear defensive or aggressive ship. Only what people do with them.
And an act of aggression deserves the same consequences for any ship. Interdictors do not deserve the freedom to bail out after participating. If someone wants to do that, they should set up stationary bubbles.
cBOLTSON wrote:If everyone thinks this is a good change then I must have missed all of the talk and discussion on this topic....
Mob rule is not equal to democracy... well, not that EVE is anything of either sort, but just because the people who get screwed over aren't vocal about it makes their opinion any less important. This is a mechanic that gives the aggressor inherent strength over the victim.
Anyways, this is far from granting anyone the power to instantly murder interdictors, numbers still very much do matter and a situation where an interdictor is already involved is generally in the hands of a larger, better skilled fleet. This really is only a detriment to fleets that lacks a good technique.
cBOLTSON wrote:Like I said the tactic is still viable, it just means the dictor pilot will have to be on his A game.
I wouldn't ask anything less from anyone, and now interdictors demand better discipline.
Wouldn't you like to be my little PWNEE? |
cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 22:09:00 -
[89] - Quote
Aphoxema G wrote:cBOLTSON wrote:As far as I am aware every ship in eve can be used in any purpose it likes. There is no clear defensive or aggressive ship. Only what people do with them. And an act of aggression deserves the same consequences for any ship. Interdictors do not deserve the freedom to bail out after participating. If someone wants to do that, they should set up stationary bubbles. cBOLTSON wrote:If everyone thinks this is a good change then I must have missed all of the talk and discussion on this topic.... Mob rule is not equal to democracy... well, not that EVE is anything of either sort, but just because the people who get screwed over aren't vocal about it makes their opinion any less important. This is a mechanic that gives the aggressor inherent strength over the victim. Anyways, this is far from granting anyone the power to instantly murder interdictors, numbers still very much do matter and a situation where an interdictor is already involved is generally in the hands of a larger, better skilled fleet. This really is only a detriment to fleets that lacks a good technique. cBOLTSON wrote:Like I said the tactic is still viable, it just means the dictor pilot will have to be on his A game. I wouldn't ask anything less from anyone, and now interdictors demand better discipline.
Thankyou for the constructive critisism. Its a nice change from the usual forum rants.
The thing I mostly have a problem with is that deploying a bubble affects your own fleet as much as it would others. I dont see it as an act of aggression, more a landscape changer.
I suppose it could be argued that its changing the favour of the landscape to suit the dictor pilot. I dont know. I just dont like this change and think it is ill concieved.
Either way it is comming I guess so I will have to deal with it.
Still CCP sould REALLY discuss these sort of changes before hand......silly icelandic ruffians! |
Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERYWHERE
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 22:09:00 -
[90] - Quote
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:U are really stupid, does this mean if u anchor a mobile bubble for yourselve (not corp) u deserve to get 24/7 agroo??
Nonsense, the problem here is excess protection and superiority for interdictors. If they want to run away, warp out. If they want to command both sides of a gate, bring two interdictors. Deploying a stationary field has its own risks and costs.
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:Your resoning is really flawed,
Your dictor needs 2 bubble launchers for this: there is timer between launching bubbles (tactik is gone: always agroo dictor bubbles) Your dictor loses dps and tank on this way Your dictor need atleast 1 scram and 2 webs to slow down anything that is not a T1 hauler preventing from burning back to the gate
Fail with capital F
I bet u never flown a dictor
It doesn't matter if a ship loses DPS if they never intend to use it. What has been done is launching the probe invokes an aggression timer. If after that timer ends the field spills anyone's milk it doesn't matter.
Wouldn't you like to be my little PWNEE? |
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