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Loki Yamaguchi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.12.11 01:19:54 -
[1] - Quote
Hello there,
New player here with just under two months playing spent most hauling in HISEC or mining. I absolutely love EVE the same way I absolutely loved X-¦ and X-¦...that is until I realized that the supposed really good economy simulation wasn't as good as I hoped.
Some issues (mostly NPC item based as I am new)
- many NPC commodities ignore supply/demand rules for cost and supply. Why are the high/low prices the same across the galaxy for products? - why are there no supply components need for the NPC's products they make? (hard to may antibiotics out of air) - no energy costs - no manpower costs (where are the people?) - no waste/theft/spoilage (what exactly is in dairy products that makes them last forever?) - it seems like there are abandoned ideas in the industrial and consumer commodity - stations with little business act/behave like booming stations
Things don't seem circular enough...
Also, at the time of writing this, there are about 2100 Blackbirds in HISEC for sale...I'm guessing about 30k-40k T1 Destroyers...how can this be a good thing?
I'm a noob and I know there are a ton of things I don't know...but I want to know so...I ask...What should I read? Ignore? Shut-up about? Hope for? Explain more? etc...
Thanks in advance...
ps. WTF are there cents in the game!!!??? argh... |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4040
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Posted - 2014.12.11 01:58:51 -
[2] - Quote
The NPC seeded trade items are so peripheral to the game economy that most people have probably forgotten they exist. The labor issue is factored into the various tiny costs of production and the like (e.g. it costs 2-6 million ISK in NPC station fees to build a Phobos hull in a station; part of that ISK pays for the scientists and factory workers involved in the job).
As for the Blackbird oversupply - EVE's entire economy is based upon overproduction. If I put my mind to it and had the capital, I could create well over a thousand of those per week on one character and over fifteen thousand if I put up a POS and used six characters to build them. All tech 1 goods other than capital ships are in extreme oversupply, and many tech 2 goods are the same.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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HeXxploiT
Little Red X
69
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Posted - 2014.12.11 04:57:07 -
[3] - Quote
Loki Yamaguchi wrote:Hello there,
New player here with just under two months playing spent most hauling in HISEC or mining. I absolutely love EVE the same way I absolutely loved X-¦ and X-¦...that is until I realized that the supposed really good economy simulation wasn't as good as I hoped.
Some issues (mostly NPC item based as I am new)
- many NPC commodities ignore supply/demand rules for cost and supply. Why are the high/low prices the same across the galaxy for products? - why are there no supply components need for the NPC's products they make? (hard to may antibiotics out of air) - no energy costs - no manpower costs (where are the people?) - no waste/theft/spoilage (what exactly is in dairy products that makes them last forever?) - it seems like there are abandoned ideas in the industrial and consumer commodity - stations with little business act/behave like booming stations - no wear and tear
Things don't seem circular enough...
Also, at the time of writing this, there are about 2100 Blackbirds in HISEC for sale...I'm guessing about 30k-40k T1 Destroyers...how can this be a good thing?
I'm a noob and I know there are a ton of things I don't know...but I want to know so...I ask...What should I read? Ignore? Shut-up about? Hope for? Explain more? etc...
Thanks in advance...
ps. WTF are there cents in the game!!!??? argh...
Get away from the npc economics as they are a joke. The rest of the economy in Eve is phenomenal and is as real as you're going to find because it IS a real economy. As with any market it takes time to become familiar with it. I assure you if the markets are loaded with items it's because people are making isk selling them and of those 2100 blackbirds a hundred will be lost in pvp & pve every single day. No market exists in an ether.To understand a market is to understand the world in which that market exists. Begin to understand the items you're dealing in, what they're used for and who's using them and the pieces will begin to fall together forming a coherent picture. This is no small task but that's what makes it so great and if you have real world skills in this area they will eventually come into play to your advantage in Eve.
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Cista2
Phoibe Enterprises
34
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Posted - 2014.12.11 07:36:04 -
[4] - Quote
You do not need to "start" with npc items just because you are new and have few isk.
When I returned to EVE last summer, I had forgotten my password and started a new character. I made 10 million isk from the 5000 starting isk in a few days, by trading in some dropped modules and player made T1 modules.
I am assuming you have many millions of isk already. It is perfectly possible for you to find obscure T1 modules that you can buy for 1 million isk and sell for 1.5 or even 2 million isk. And soon you will have billions. |
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
318
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Posted - 2014.12.11 09:14:57 -
[5] - Quote
Sabriz pretty much summed up the NPC goods economy, it's smaller than the X2 and X3 economy and doesn't have the variety. My own view is that when the game was first designed it was put in because all space games (afaik) have that trading NPC goods element, moving stuff from A to B etc.
The player economy in EVE is vast compared to the X2 and X3 economies, where in say X3 you have a simple pyramid with stuff like chelt meat etc at the bottom tier and moving up 6 - 7 layers to high tech weapons at the top, the EVE economy (outside of NPC goods) is far more complex and has more layers with tens of thousands of items at different levels in the pyramid.
If you are familiar with the X games economies you'll find the EVE player economy much more interesting. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5577
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Posted - 2014.12.11 14:24:28 -
[6] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: As for the Blackbird oversupply - EVE's entire economy is based upon overproduction. If I put my mind to it and had the capital, I could create well over a thousand of those per week on one character and over fifteen thousand if I put up a POS and used six characters to build them. All tech 1 goods other than capital ships are in extreme oversupply, and many tech 2 goods are the same.
I am not sure I follow you.
EvE's entire economy is (mostly) based on demand and supply, overproduction is a feeing, no, a "sentiment" (I'll expand on this later) of yours.
The ratio between amount of supply and demand is going to form price. Producing more just makes prices drop. The real overproduction happens way, way later than this.
As you increase production, price just keeps going down, until it eventually meets the infamous "production cost". But is it "overproduction"? Nope. What happens in a realistic market is that there's an usually deep buried "break even" point. But it's very hard to get there, almost "asymptotically hard". If a supply is so abundant that prices drop to production cost, the next step is not a catastrophe. Maybe in RL (workers getting fired and whatsnot). The next step is... makers see their profit so low that stop buying minerals. Who wants to really dig deep about further involved mechanics, feel free to look for "price elasticity of demand / supply".
In few words, Blackbird makers would start dropping their mineral purchases (assuming they don't find other profitable T1 markets). This leads to minerals demand to drop and this begins to pressure on the minerals prices themselves. Have enough people quit buying minerals (happens during certain seasons of the year) and minerals prices will tank. So, we did not really see "oversupply" but the "built in" markets self optimization and self healing in action.
What happens next? That in a free market, minerals have a production cost (formed by a lot of factors including buying mining ship hulls, insurance if any, fittings etc. etc.) that dictate the true break even. In fact, the prices we usually see are this cost plus the plusvalence miners want to do the job. But plusvalence is not an hard coded value. It's just another demand and supply governed number, if demand is strong then miners will ask for more than when supply is overhelming. It's also called "market sentiment" and unlike yours, collective sentiment has strong feedback on price.
That is the whole EVE markets are a pyramid at the base of which lie these true costs. Until price won't meet such costs (and sometimes for longer than that), price may drop freely without talking of "overproduction". The break even cost is possibly in the region of 1 ISK per Tritanium unit (it's an indicative number), so, before getting down there, we really have to produce a LOT. Moreover, as we approach such break even thresold, miners would begin stopping their mining operations, seen as way too unrewarding. Thus, 1 ISK pu break even sees an additional "glass barrier" above it, or "support", measured by miners expected reward elasticity.
End result: before overproduction really happens, we really, REALLY have to be in a disaster scenario.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
212
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Posted - 2014.12.11 14:55:49 -
[7] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: End result: before overproduction really happens, we really, REALLY have to be in a disaster scenario.
Hi VV
TL:DR: WRONG. Cruiser, BC, BS tiericide (google this word OP) created massive overproduction of these items.
What is really scary is the player turn-over & the trapped assets on other accounts.
player characters have value in this game too, ppl get rich "flipping" characters its quite cool tbh |
Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
194
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Posted - 2014.12.11 18:00:01 -
[8] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:The NPC seeded trade items are so peripheral to the game economy that most people have probably forgotten they exist. The labor issue is factored into the various tiny costs of production and the like (e.g. it costs 2-6 million ISK in NPC station fees to build a Phobos hull in a station; part of that ISK pays for the scientists and factory workers involved in the job).
As for the Blackbird oversupply - EVE's entire economy is based upon overproduction. If I put my mind to it and had the capital, I could create well over a thousand of those per week on one character and over fifteen thousand if I put up a POS and used six characters to build them. All tech 1 goods other than capital ships are in extreme oversupply, and many tech 2 goods are the same.
I kind of wish they would significantly nerf production times across the board.
Its silly that with one mediocrely skilled industrial character I could meet the entire supply for a common T1 item. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
668
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Posted - 2014.12.11 18:27:41 -
[9] - Quote
Tear Jar wrote:I kind of wish they would significantly nerf production times across the board.
Its silly that with one mediocrely skilled industrial character I could meet the entire supply for a common T1 item. Thanks, CCP Greyscale...
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5577
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Posted - 2014.12.11 18:48:53 -
[10] - Quote
Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: End result: before overproduction really happens, we really, REALLY have to be in a disaster scenario.
Hi VV TL:DR: WRONG. Cruiser, BC, BS tiericide (google this word OP) created massive overproduction of these items. What is really scary is the player turn-over & the trapped assets on other accounts. player characters have value in this game too, ppl get rich "flipping" characters its quite cool tbh
That's a very specific situation where the markets radically shifted minerals requirements.
Even then, I doubt any of those "overproduced ships" had been sold for below the miners break even in its minerals constituents.
Even this rare case has been covered, by "Until price won't meet such costs (and sometimes for longer than that),"
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
57
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Posted - 2014.12.11 19:45:18 -
[11] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Jerry T Pepridge wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: End result: before overproduction really happens, we really, REALLY have to be in a disaster scenario.
Hi VV TL:DR: WRONG. Cruiser, BC, BS tiericide (google this word OP) created massive overproduction of these items. What is really scary is the player turn-over & the trapped assets on other accounts. player characters have value in this game too, ppl get rich "flipping" characters its quite cool tbh That's a very specific situation where the markets radically shifted minerals requirements. Even then, I doubt any of those "overproduced ships" had been sold for below the miners break even in its minerals constituents. Even this rare case has been covered, by "Until price won't meet such costs ( and sometimes for longer than that),"
I miss the old days of 100% scrap metal reprocessing. Then if a ship ever did dip below mineral value you could melt it for a profit |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
828
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Posted - 2014.12.12 18:00:12 -
[12] - Quote
The only way for the EVE economy to 'improve' is for CCP to create peace time economies that don't revolve around ISK sinks alone. When that day comes, EVE will truly become more than a 'blow stuff up' game. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
170
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Posted - 2014.12.12 18:26:53 -
[13] - Quote
If you want a better area to sell or build a market go to null, if they don't make you jump in a Frig all day far.from your home guarding someone else station....
Most of the market while player controlled also gets controlled by a few specific people like stock markets back in 1928
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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350125GO
Task Force Proteus Protean Concept
145
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Posted - 2014.12.12 19:03:20 -
[14] - Quote
Wait a minute... You're saying people actually build T1 ships?
So strange, I've sold thousands of them and never once considered building one.
You're young, you'll adjust.
I'm old, I'll get used to it.
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Loki Yamaguchi
Level 42 Industries
0
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Posted - 2014.12.14 02:02:54 -
[15] - Quote
Thanks for all the replies...some great ones too.
Since reading the posts I've taken some to heart. - got rid of most on my NPC commodities. Carbon, fertilizer, antibiotics, electronic parts are still being watched as if you catch the right cycle, it's really easy money. - Now mostly move ships (Frig, Des, Crs)(T1&T2)
Still too new/poor/ignorant to move to LOWSEC or NULL but I do venture into LOWEC fringes to snag a good deal.
Back to the economy, I still think that Ocih's point of a "blow stuff up" game is most accurate in regards to the economy. At some point in time I imagine that CCP will have to expand the economy horizontally as deeper is not what this needs. Why not task new players the roll of supplying factories with the operational necessities? Why not tie a factories efficiency also to its supply level? Why not have factories bought/sold and for the most part get rid of NPC facories?
Without change then things just blow-up and are quickly and easily replaced with little or no thought as everything is oversupplied...I'm guessing that you never see run-away markets as the trough is always being refilled at the same time every day.
Any how...rambling...
Short point is that it's too bad that NPCs govern SO much in HISEC which directly effects LOW/NULL |
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