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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
68
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:43:55 -
[31] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Damjan Fox wrote:A good decision, in my opinion.
It's nice to see, you are not to proud or undiscerning, to question "features" you implemented in the past.
Now, please, get rid of the system cost index as well, because, with your words, "in its current state it is adding the wrong type of complexity" and it is "not positively impacting the overall gameplay experience in EVE."
So 95% of everything would be built in Jita/Amarr/Rens/Dodixie?
They would, of course, need to replace the system cost index with a different mechanic to prevent that. I understand the intention behind it, to spread out people all over the map and all that, but this is just poor gameplay design, in my opinion.
It prevents people from getting and working together, because too many people producing in one system would raise the index and reduce margins for all of them.
I could name more arguments against it, but this thread is not about the system cost index, so enough of that...
Regards,
Damjan |
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
33
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:45:22 -
[32] - Quote
As I tried to state over here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=386497
Dangeresque Too wrote:Apparently people prefer to just snipe the team auctions instead of bidding on them, kinda defeats the purpose of having an auction system to begin with.
If you aren't going to change it at least tell me how much I oversniped the team by? I mean I get an email when I lose a team auction telling me how much the winning snipe was, but nothing about how much I oversniped an auction by.
I think I'm done referring to this awful system as an auction system anymore, cause all it has turned into 90% of the time is a game of chance for who snipes at the last second with the highest value. I stopped even bidding on teams I was not going to be present at my keyboard for the end time because it is going to get sniped unless I snipe it instead.
Darn shame really, the system had such potential.
The teams overall in their current state are mostly worthless, and in most cases the bonus wasn't very much or way to specific. Further if you really wanted to take advantage of teams usefulness you had to get half a dozen or more teams just to cover 1 manufacturing process. Since you had removed the variance to how well people could build (and instead just making them build faster, ooooo wow, real helpful there), we need something to help spread out the industry tasks.
Several ideas here that would probably see a greater use of teams:
1) An auction system that doesn't soley rely on sniping the bid at the last second. A max bid feature or even maybe a delay after the last bid to give others a chance to counter bid a snipe.
2) Since many auctions ended at very bad times for me, I was not going to alarm clock it just to take a chance I could snipe the bid, since actually putting up a bid really did nothing in the grand scheme. (would be an interesting metric on how many auctions were sniped as compared to those that held a low final bid through the end)
3) Make the teams more generic. Even the task of just finding a team that does something that helps what you are doing is probably a stopping point for people looking for teams to use. But most definitely make them far less specific in what they do.
4) Give them more meaningful boosts. Too many of the teams out there are at best 1 or 2%, and there are entirely too many .5% bonus teams that are very much useless. Heck I could spend a fraction of what it costs to snipe a team auction and buy a generic implant that does better than that. Yeah, occasionally there would be nice teams in the double digits, I've even seen a few upwards of 20% I think (though the sniping system in place discouraged me from even trying to bid).
5) Make the teams either last longer or have a wider range of influence, constellation maybe?
6) Or institute any number of requested changes to teams when they were first put out. This is what happens when feedback is ignored, features fail. |
adriaans
Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
16
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:47:40 -
[33] - Quote
My problems with teams as they currently are; -stupid bidding process -i am not going to move my manufacturing base just for 1 team, forget it. 100k+ items and thousands of freighter loads is not worth it. -in terms of invention i much more preferred meta items. -not a chance at all for proper long term planning due to new production, which makes teams that might be worth bidding billion for not worth considering.
despite that, I would still not remove them. They do nothing negative to the game play experience for anyone not using them.
----True oldschool solo pvp'er----
My latest vid: Insanity IV
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Zip Girl
17
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:49:59 -
[34] - Quote
Teams were/are a nice way to help offset the higher install costs that the new system cost index added at the same time. Building on the right scale and with the right team(s); someone could save billions on their material costs over the life of the team(s) being used
The problem with research teams IMHO is that the bonuses were too low for them to be used effectively unless it was to finish that last bit of ME/TE research needed to get to the BPO perfect. Saving 30 minutes on a copy job that normally takes 18 hours to finish; and would finishes when I won't be online to deliver the job for a few hours; just means that I won't be using a team.
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
33
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:51:56 -
[35] - Quote
A few other things I forgot to mention:
7) My corp had actually stopped building when Crius hit. Stopped. Why? Because it was poorly implemented and needed refinement, some of which it got, so we almost got back into it but had realized our costs were now nearly double what they were before, so we mostly stopped again, save for new items from patches like Bowheads.
8) There was no way to tag a team auction you wanted to keep an eye on or to see what teams your system had already bid on. Your concept was that systems full of industrialists would work together to bid on teams for their system, except you gave them no means to do so. Even if your system had already bid on a team, you had no way to know who it was to coordinate more bids.
9) There was no notifications when you were out bid on an auction, not that it mattered anyways as whoever out bid you would usually get sniped at the end by someone else entirely. |
Valterra Craven
409
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:14:08 -
[36] - Quote
I did want to give some more feedback.
I mentioned in the previous thread that the removal or working features that are barely used was a bad idea and a poor precedent to set.
Since you brought up the removal of clone grades and I loved that change, I want to voice some more on why I think that is a poor argument to bring to the table currently.
Clones were practically a requirement for all players and a no brainier defacto cost that you needed to always have in the back of your mind as a PVPer. It was a deterrent to older players with a lot of SP in their heads due to the amount of cost a clone has when podded. It offered no upsides to game play and was just a poor feature all the way around.
Teams on the other hand suffer none of this downsides. They are not required. They are not always a no brainer, and they added "good" complexity (not complexity for the sake of it) as opposed to clone grades.
Therefore in my opinion this is still the wrong move. I know you guys are hard headed, but you REALLY REALLY need to establish a policy and procedure and a guideline document on when and when not to remove features. In my opinion the removal of teams would meet none of those required thresholds that the removal of the clone grades did. Boldness is great, but boldness needs to be tempered with consistency of action. |
Anna Marinada
Power of the Phoenix
0
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:27:28 -
[37] - Quote
Personally, I haven't used teams at all in what little industry I actually do, so this change wouldn't have an effect on me. I'm confident you guys will do what's best for the game though. |
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
12
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:32:15 -
[38] - Quote
I think I would like to agree somewhat with Valterra's points there, and others...
While I can appreciate not wanting to leave such a feature in there to 'rot' the system a bit, I think that bit more effort to fix/rebuild the idea of teams would be worthwhile.
Even if it's a lot of work, realistically we know it could end up being several years before industry gets revisited so to "leave industry in a good state" it's probably worth another pass of refinement and revision. It's a core aspect of the universe, as big as exploding spaceships and bigger than most other areas... but they all depend on industry!
So, if industry systems are going to be left behind as "finished, for now" it would be nice to have this nice added feature finished and polished, rather than sitting on our minds wondering "when will teams come back? what will they do?" and having that gripe sitting there for however-many-years until the idea climbs up the priority ladder.. which might never happen!
So... please consider! :3 |
Bearcastle
Bionesis Technologies
13
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:37:47 -
[39] - Quote
Why I do not use team.
- You cannot move them. - Really uninsteresting the way its done at the moment.
Now what to do instead of scraping the idea.
Industrials should be able to trade team and use those team where they want. They could be retired after a certain number of task, not related to time.
I like the idea to make a real industry of it and not only train and use. So there's team university run by capsuleer. Then where to train the team ? - In low sec only few station have a university habitat (about 10% of all the low sec NPC station), equally distributed in low sec - In null sec an habitat have to be added to a station. Skills - University campus allow to train a certain number of team per skill - University training allow to train certain type of training related to the level (related to what the team is able to improve)
Then using team for an insdustrialist, could be done with two skills - Team efficiency allow the team to work better with each level (lower production price) - Team longevity or experience, allow more work per team (lower team cost efficiency and production cost).
A Team could be kill or not during transport in cargo bay, in case of attack. And if captured, well they are back onto the market.
So team become a usefull workforce and way to make isk as well. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
168
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:40:13 -
[40] - Quote
Excerpts from the Teams DEVBLOG:
A specialized team resides in a solar system and can be used by anyone doing a job in that system, including in POSes. The teams thus act as a counter-balance to the cost scaling GÇô the presence of a good team can offset the increased cost in operating in an active system.
The dramatic changes to the cost of industry jobs, as outlined by CCP Greyscale in his dev blog, adds another layer to the landscape, one that will rival the distance to market and security level in shaping the industrial landscape. In fact, if we do nothing but the cost scaling changes, weGÇÖre encouraging players to spread industry activity out as much as they can, which is not ideal. That is where the team system comes in.
How can you remove this single important element of industry and not tweak the other parts to compensate?? |
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Qual
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
59
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:47:58 -
[41] - Quote
PsychoBitch wrote:While you are at it, please go back to the more useful industrial interface. To be sure, the new interface is "cute", but not concise.
Sorry for the strong language, but WTF are you on about?
The new interface is a HUGE improvement! |
Sam Spock
The Scope Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:57:54 -
[42] - Quote
I started doing T2 invention and building when Crius was released so I don't have any perspective on the world without teams. I was only doing small scale stuff like shield modules and a few others and teams helped me out quite a bit. Even as a solo player i was able to bid on and win a few teams that directly aided in what I was building.
The main issue I had with it was trying to figure out what teams I needed to build what I wanted to build. I had to use a third party tool for that. took a little work but I was able to figure it out.
The auction system was also a big hindrance. No way to see if you are out bid.
I have pretty much stopped building things because the prices have crashed on everything I was making isk on. Teams helped me keep it going a little longer so I guess I won't be building any time soon. I am just going to research all the BPO's I have to max me/te and check now and then to see if the market has changed.
Giving you Inconsistent grammar, speilling and Punct-uation since 1974!
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
15
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:58:17 -
[43] - Quote
Seems a waste of development time to remove the feature completely. As you say, teams are a good idea, and even in their current slightly unpolished state they were not doing any harm.
Will be a shame to see an interesting aspect of industry being removed in my opinion. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
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Posted - 2014.12.17 18:00:47 -
[44] - Quote
As someone who uses teams on a daily basis and buys teams every week. I am sad to see them go. I loved the teams and liked to hunt for a good team.
I agree that sniping teams is an issue, but its also has to do with people not wanting to pay enough for a team I reckon. If you can save 2 billion ISK wiht a team in 1 month you should not try and bid 100 mil on it. Bid 500 mil and not many people will go over that simple as that.
I have managed to get pretty much all the teams I wanted(and teams I didnt want and just lol bidded on them to deny them for others) by actully putting some real value on them. Battleship team that would save me 10 mil per battleship and I can make 30 battleships a day should mean that that team is worth more then 100 mil lol. In the 28 days i can have that team I would be able to save 8.4 billion ISK. So i should probally spend atleast 500 to 1 bill to make sure I got that team and ride the free ISK.
Yes freeloaders are a thing. But they have to move to your system, they are restricted to what you build. Notice too many free loaders in your system? Finish up your builds when the teams run out and move your BPO's to a new system. |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1736
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Posted - 2014.12.17 18:02:01 -
[45] - Quote
I used to do loads of manufacturing but stopped as I didn't like the gameplay mechanic of teams and felt that I would be missing out in any realistic competitive edge by not being involved. Thanks for removing that nonsense. |
Brutalis Furia
Hammer and Anvil Industries
14
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Posted - 2014.12.17 18:03:50 -
[46] - Quote
In the industrial landscape, the cost index was a push to get pilots to spread out, where teams were a pull to attract pilots to specific systems.
Moving forward, how do you intend to counter the cost index now that teams have been removed? |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
15
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Posted - 2014.12.17 18:06:57 -
[47] - Quote
Solhild wrote:I used to do loads of manufacturing but stopped as I didn't like the gameplay mechanic of teams and felt that I would be missing out in any realistic competitive edge by not being involved. Thanks for removing that nonsense. This is one reason why I think they should have been left it. At the moment industry is more of a free for all than it has ever been with the removal of skill requirements for T2 construction, and BPO simplification. Correct usage of teams was one of the few remaining layers of complexity which added some way to separate the wheat from the chaff . |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Overload Everything
4382
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Posted - 2014.12.17 18:53:22 -
[48] - Quote
This... is really bold. I really like the idea of removing cruft before it becomes entrenched and impossible to manage.
Good on you!
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Baldur Onnlin
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:02:47 -
[49] - Quote
yay, begone with it. |
Kuro Matsuoka
Strategic Industries INC. Unknown Destination
0
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:03:08 -
[50] - Quote
My point of view is that I don't fully understand why they are being removed.
I can see how the system industry index and manufacture ingredients might be balanced around their existence, but a simple removal of teams would not fix that issue. You'd have to rebalance everything to counter their removal, and that sounds like more work than CCP is able to do on them right now.
The complexity that teams add is minimal and entirely optional. I think it could do with better explaining, as most of the people I have talked to don't know how to get them, use them or see the benefit to them as being big enough to bother, but they also don't feel that they suffer for not using them. I will admit to only having spoken to a small group of people with similar play styles and backgrounds (HS industrialists and miners), so there is likely nuance I have missed.
I'd really like to see them get reworked, and made more useful though. |
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Silen Talker
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:10:10 -
[51] - Quote
I'm no manufacturing/copying/researching expert (yet), but the new industry screen got me into manufacturing more than basic items, and into research. Because? I could understand what I needed to do, to:
- be moderately successful
- make informed choices without formulae
- progress
But teams? never really got it, So maybe they do need a clarification of the intended purpose I think removing teams (for now) is probably a bold but good idea.
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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
512
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:12:26 -
[52] - Quote
I think teams were fiddly and unnecessary. Kill them and don't bring them back. |
Celly S
Concord Attraction Services The Ditanian Alliance
349
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:14:32 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:Title is king; Teams are not providing what was wanted from them. In a very rare course of action they are being removed for the health of Industry. Head on over here to read Team Game of Drones' dev blog about it. Give us your feedback and tell us what you think.
Launcher link is not working, but i was able to find the thread anyway.
Also, IDK if this has been said yet, but while you're getting rid of teams, can you also get rid of charging us to use our own assembly arrays since we do pay for them and the fuel to keep the pos running and in turn running them.
as an industrialist I've always felt as though that was a little bit of a slap in the face to those of us who bought, ran, and maintained our own POSes. The arguements were made that "someone had to build the items" and that "your own arrays give a material and time reduction", but honest, on small jobs (IMHO) those savings never quite overshadowed the fact that I was paying to run something and then paying to use it as well.
just my 0.02 worth
o/ Celly
Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal.
Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular.
Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself.
A sandwich can be a great motivator.
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Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
839
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:22:23 -
[54] - Quote
I agree that teams are unnecessarily complicated in their current state. I feel this has a lot to so with the following:
When hiring a "team" you only want them for one or two of their four attributes. Mostly people don't want an entire team, just one specialist to help on the specific job they're doing. Having to pay for the entire team just to get that one specialist feels bad. It doesn't encourage me to do it again. The communal bidding process makes the whole thing completely unpredictable and that's another negative experience. The industrial landscape should be fluid without being chaotic.
I propose that when you re-visit "teams" it should look more like this:
Specialists Players recruit individual NPC specialists, not entire teams! Specialists are exclusive assets, not public. They work for the player who hires them and nobody else. Players can recruit multiple specialists and group them together to make their own teams. The number of specialists a player can put in a team is determined by skill level in "Industrial Team Leadership" Only 1 specialist or player-made team can work on a particular job at the same time. The number of teams a player can have is determined by skill level in "Industrial Team Management" Specialists will start with small bonuses, but these will increase as the specialist gains experience! Specialists will not automatically despawn after 4 weeks; instead they will re-negotiate their contracts with you...
Recruitment Process There will be a finite number of specialists in the game. CCP will be able to graduate and/or retire more specialists as needed. Some should graduate and retire each month to prevent saturation of highly bonused specialists. Each specialist will have a list of job preferences e.g. Salary expectations, Location preference, type of work, etc... Players will be able to create a job advert and any matches from the specialist database will submit an application Close but not quite specialists may propose a slight change e.g. a higher salary, minimum contract length, etc... The player can then accept or decline the NPC applications.
Contract Re-negotiation Specialists gain experience as they work. e.g a 1% TE bonus to cruiser hull manufacturing might improve to 2% after 100 jobs Instead of despawning after 4 weeks, specialists will try to re-negotiate their contracts with you... This will take the form of some condition the player must satisfy to retain that specialist for another month... e.g. a higher salary, working closer to home (move NPC to system), promotion (put NPC in charge of team), etc...
Skills & Experience Bonuses gained by an NPC whilst in your employ will be capped at some reasonable level They must be maintained by having the NPC work on jobs The bonuses will decay over time if you do not give the NPC jobs to do These bonuses would provide an incentive to try and keep your specialists by re-negotiating their contracts If somebody fails to do that however, the improved specialists will become available for other players to hire!
I realise that the above is a complex system, but I feel that it addresses and improves upon the main problems with the current system and that it models the real world quite well. Well I would sign off with "that's my 2 cents" but it feels more like my $2k lol
Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
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Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
394
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:23:04 -
[55] - Quote
This is a silly decision. I already posted more sensible feedback on the other thread.
my teapot is ready
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Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
7
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:23:46 -
[56] - Quote
I do not agree in shutting down the team - auction - system at this point. It is not worth the money and time. As some other people have mentioned, it does not harm anyone in current state.
I personly would like to see the teams make a difference. But it is too convienent to simply ignore the them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but your Initial goal was that teams lead to a better distributed industry in eden. A system should differ from another.
I suggest as following changes: 1) Refirm Teams under the System Goverment control. The teams move around like a bunch of vagabonds. No wonder no one trusts them. My clan would rather hire locals then just some unknown people. You never know what you get. Maybe you end up with an Amarr team. Unacceptable!
2) Instead of auction teams with fixed skills, let industrials fund the training costs for the team skills. A certificate system would be in order, like we have for capsule pilots (OOC: I refer to the same way a pilot will train his skills, I think that concept works well) Corporation within a system fund the trainingcosts.
I think that may work and with time system shape and differ from each one. Of course I only scetched the Idea. I think there is a lot of details to line out for this. But it is the way to go. It would be nice if we could talk more in this direction then in throwing money out of the window. At least this team thing already cost a lot of money, dont you think?
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Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1737
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:40:38 -
[57] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Solhild wrote:I used to do loads of manufacturing but stopped as I didn't like the gameplay mechanic of teams and felt that I would be missing out in any realistic competitive edge by not being involved. Thanks for removing that nonsense. This is one reason why I think they should have been left it. At the moment industry is more of a free for all than it has ever been with the removal of skill requirements for T2 construction, and BPO simplification. Correct usage of teams was one of the few remaining layers of complexity which added some way to separate the wheat from the chaff .
Well done. Another view would be sorting the interested, vibrant human being who is realistically engaged in the game from the basement dwelling neck beard. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
15
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:48:45 -
[58] - Quote
Solhild wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Solhild wrote:I used to do loads of manufacturing but stopped as I didn't like the gameplay mechanic of teams and felt that I would be missing out in any realistic competitive edge by not being involved. Thanks for removing that nonsense. This is one reason why I think they should have been left it. At the moment industry is more of a free for all than it has ever been with the removal of skill requirements for T2 construction, and BPO simplification. Correct usage of teams was one of the few remaining layers of complexity which added some way to separate the wheat from the chaff . Well done. Another view would be sorting the interested, vibrant human being who is realistically engaged in the game from the basement dwelling neck beard. You are wildly exaggerating there; to make use of teams just required the player to perform a few simple calculations on top of what you would normally have to do. |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1737
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:54:08 -
[59] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Solhild wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Solhild wrote:I used to do loads of manufacturing but stopped as I didn't like the gameplay mechanic of teams and felt that I would be missing out in any realistic competitive edge by not being involved. Thanks for removing that nonsense. This is one reason why I think they should have been left it. At the moment industry is more of a free for all than it has ever been with the removal of skill requirements for T2 construction, and BPO simplification. Correct usage of teams was one of the few remaining layers of complexity which added some way to separate the wheat from the chaff . Well done. Another view would be sorting the interested, vibrant human being who is realistically engaged in the game from the basement dwelling neck beard. You are wildly exaggerating there; to make use of teams just required the player to perform a few simple calculations on top of what you would normally have to do.
Fair enough, I just didn't engage with it. Maybe will do in another iteration. Looking forward to the next iteration then. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
168
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 19:57:13 -
[60] - Quote
ANYONE WHO SAYS TEAMS AREN'T WORTH THE PRICE YOU PAY
YOU DON'T BUILD ENOUGH
TEAMS SCALE, THE MORE YOU BUILD, THE MORE YOU SAVE AND THE MORE YOU CAN PAY FOR A TEAM AND STILL SAVE
YES, I MEANT TO BE ALL CAPS!!!!! |
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