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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
47
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Posted - 2014.12.19 02:24:47 -
[1] - Quote
The Dscan Immunity is a horrible Idea. While it makes little to no difference for larger fleets where Recons only act in a minor support role, it is deadly for solo or smallscale engagements.
Solo and Smallscale Fights are often started spontaneously and the decision to engage or not is done in a few seconds or the chance is gone. You check Dscan, they have this, we have that, lets try or lets move on. There is not a lot of probing with alts or checking the Grid with CovOps. Its going in, give or get a bloddy nose and moving on. And should there be a few cloaked Recons, well then you can try to kill the tackle, get in range of them or extract before they sensor delay is done.
With the Dscan Invisibility there will be plenty of Situations where a soloplayer or 2-3 man gang warps on Grid because they thought the other gang is engageble and simply is *instantly* dead. These Recons will not be used as "support" ships but as main fighting force that is able to lockdown smaller groups completely via EWar while the other ships are just uesed as bait and source of DPS.
While dying to a trap is not the main problem, the inability to avoid being trapped is. You force everyone to either move as Blob where Recons are no danger or to have a Probing Alt all the time which is simpy annoying and fun-killing.
This change is bad because it heavily favors ganks and put smaller groups at a significant disadvantage. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
47
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Posted - 2014.12.19 02:27:16 -
[2] - Quote
doublepost delete plz |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
48
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Posted - 2014.12.19 02:53:46 -
[3] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Syzygium wrote: or to have a Probing Alt all the time which is simpy annoying and fun-killing.. Stop being so anti social, even jerks like us have managed to find people that like scanning, you dont need an alt, you need a new friend, one who likes to probe. So what you say it that SoloPvP is bullshit at all and should be ignored or at least forced to dualbox all the time and all other forms of PvP should simply bring MORE PEOPLE (what is the final solution to all problems in EvE, just bring MORE...)? Yeah that sounds great.
Also a great idea to bring someone who "likes to scan". Yeah. We roam 50 jumps and the guy needs 50times to drop Combat Probes to make sure we don't run into a faggotrytrap with our 3 cruisers. That makes so much sense. I think this "friend" will quit EvE on the third day. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
49
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Posted - 2014.12.19 04:46:45 -
[4] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Syzygium wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Syzygium wrote: or to have a Probing Alt all the time which is simpy annoying and fun-killing.. Stop being so anti social, even jerks like us have managed to find people that like scanning, you dont need an alt, you need a new friend, one who likes to probe. So what you say it that SoloPvP is bullshit at all and should be ignored or at least forced to dualbox all the time and all other forms of PvP should simply bring MORE PEOPLE (what is the final solution to all problems in EvE, just bring MORE...)? Yeah that sounds great. Also a great idea to bring someone who "likes to scan". Yeah. We roam 50 jumps and the guy needs 50times to drop Combat Probes to make sure we don't run into a faggotrytrap with our 3 cruisers. That makes so much sense. I think this "friend" will quit EvE on the third day. Thats not what I said at all, but good job winding yourself up like a gigantic baby over it. Solo PVP without a proper or alts right now is already full of traps and ambushes, for the average solo pvp guy, literally nothing will change, his day seeing a lachesis drop on grid will literally be no different than when an arazu decloaks near him. He will have literally the exact same amount of time to react, because in situation A, you can't see the pilgrim until he commits, and decloaks, he's got a 4-5 second delay in his actions, the Lachesis, you can't see until he commits, and he'll have about 4-5 seconds of warp deceleration PLUS targeting time that delay his actions. So lets not drag the solo PVP guy on this, post change his day isn't any worse than it was before. If anything he's probably rolling around in a RLML Rapier owning Garmurs. Second, if you were just running 3 cruisers with no alts theres a pretty good chance you were going to run into a 'faggotytrap'. Second if you're really roaming in 3 guys and you can see 10 dudes in local but dont show ships on scan your spidey sense should already be going off, and if not, one of your traps is probably waiting to kill you. Sorry, all the crap you're getting spun up about is something entirely made up in your own head Sorry but you obviously have no idea about living and roaming in lowsec. You simply navigate fast and your decisions to warp to or stay in a location, be it an FW plex, belt or the star entirely depend on what Dscan tells you. People in local give little to no hints who is in space because lowsec is full of stations where half of the people idle all the time. You have plenty of PI Chars, Cloakhaulers or Soloplexers that are in no way a target or a threat. No one goes docking in 5 stations to check who is docked before accepting a fight or not.
Also if you do not recognize the difference between a few recons decloaking next to you which gives you around 10 seconds to either warp out or maximize range and speed before they have a successful lock and landing on a grid with some already waiting recons (sensorbooster/remotesensorbooster anyone?) that have locked you 1 second after you have landed on grid, then you might want to watch a few great solo PvP videos and look how you can deal with decloaking recons in a fast ship. What you cannot do when you land and the sensorboosted recon is already waiting for you. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
49
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Posted - 2014.12.19 05:12:44 -
[5] - Quote
Well, they could simply give Recons an improved DScan Range themselves, maybe +20% per Level. So these Recons an spot enemies earlier or watch over locations while outside scanning range from these locations (unless for other Recons). They would be great for scouting or warning purposes along with their powerful EWar Support role without making them the ideal traptool for farming soloplayers. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
50
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Posted - 2014.12.19 06:12:05 -
[6] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:So you're saying as a good solo PVP guy you'd see six or seven people in local but pick nothing up on Dscan and you'd still warp to the out gate?
lol. You obviously have never lived in LowSec. Six or Seven People in Local means *nothing* here, thats the usual case in like 95% of the factionwar systems and is in now way an indicator for a waiting gang.
And to your question: where to warp is completely dependent on system size, sec/corpstatus of the other locals and ship flown. Usually you warp to some celestials or bookmark to check activity via Dscan and then decide to look for an engagement or to leave. These cloaky-Recons are in most cases no danger, because you are long in warp or miles and miles away from them when they decloak and try to lock you.
Unfortunately with Dscan Immune ships, that brings nothing any more because the information that there is a Vexor in the Belt is useless if you cant know if that is a Vexor or a Vexor and a Huginn and a Rook and a Lachesis before you are actually there. And no, even "warp to 100" or such stuff does not safe you when they have simply put remotesensorboosted Lach+Huginn at 50. You are immobile 2 seconds after you land and thats "game over". |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
54
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Posted - 2014.12.19 06:42:43 -
[7] - Quote
I have the feeling you have little to no PvP experience at all?
Lets say there is a Firetail in a Small FW Plex. Dscan is clear otherwise. You are in a Jaguar and decide to be ultracareful and "warp to 100" to the Plex. Unfortunately you land and notice the Firetail is actually outside the Plex at 50 remotesensorboosting a Huginn and a Lachesis which are also remotesensorboosting each other. You fall out of warp and around 2 seconds later you are pointed, (at least) doublewebbed and damped to 10km lockrange which leaves you with 600m/s at fully overheated MWD while all other three ships are a lot faster. You simply go nowhere, you cannot come into fighting range and simply die.
You can repeat this with mutliple sizes of trapgangs and baitships, all leaving to the point that you simply cannot warp anywhere anymore without risking to run into a no-way-out-camp in the middle of space. It really matters not if you fly a Frig, a Cruiser or a Battlecruiser, because you can neither leave nor dictate the fighting range. They just pin you down and chew slowly through your tank with longrange weaponry or drones. And thats something that cloaked recons could never do, because once they decloak you have plenty of time to warp out or at least get at fullspeed overheated (which means 3000m/s + in the usual lowsec ship) and have enough momentum to get outside of their tacklerange before they have locked you and accelerated themselves. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
60
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Posted - 2014.12.19 07:35:30 -
[8] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Covert ops ships aren't cloaked or hidden from dscan all the time, they will show up on dscan whenever they use wormhole, stargate or acceleration gate. ... or while fighting or waiting uncloaked to fast-tackle someone with the help of (remote-)sensorboosters (avoiding sensor delay). |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
61
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Posted - 2014.12.19 10:10:56 -
[9] - Quote
@Pilgrim: Instead of 40% Rangebonus for Neuts, they should give her 20% Range and 20% Amountbonus. This way you had ~30km Neutrange which is not as good as the Curse but a lot more flexible than then crappy brawlingrange now, while still have a good neutcapacity. |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
62
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Posted - 2014.12.19 11:30:13 -
[10] - Quote
HoruSeth wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Take for example d-scan inhibitor deployables. Everybody was saying 'oooh they'll be used in every single fw plex'.
Yeah right, never seen one in an year. Not. a. single. one. Because they are visible on DS? + they are single-use structures that cost about 15m each. They are just not very useful, neither for (moving) gangs that cannot rescoop it, nor for missionrunners or plexers who would ruin their income by dropping one of them per mission/plex they do. |
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
65
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Posted - 2014.12.19 11:37:34 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that. Sorry, but that "great job" is done by people who *obviously* have no idea about how solo and smallscale PvP especially in Lowsec works. I have not seen any "strong arguments" that have not been proven totally wrong by simple examples, if you have found some, please name them! |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
68
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:02:30 -
[12] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Syzygium wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that. Sorry, but that "great job" is done by people who *obviously* have no idea about how solo and smallscale PvP especially in Lowsec works. I have not seen any "strong arguments" that have not been proven totally wrong by simple examples, if you have found some, please name them! For lowsec, three very simple arguments: 1) They're still visible in local 2) They're visible on-grid 3) Both fighting parties are free to use them What more do you need? You just have to be creative in using those 3 points better than your opponent(s). As already said: 1. Local counts little in Lowsec because you have a LOT more Residents, Haulers, Shipspinners, PI Guys, POS Guys and whatnot in Local. You can almost never use Localcount to determine if there is a gang waiting or not. There can be 10 People an Local and no ship in Space. Daily Business in Lowsec.
2. To see them on-Grid is useless when that grid is a simple trap for anyone who warps there. When you see them you can count your ship as lost because you are already dead. You drop out of warp and are almost instantly pointed, webbed, damped and whatnot because they planned their trap for exat that scenario. The only way to prevent that is sending a scout or prober before you do any warp, which makes Solo- and Smallcale PvP just horrible annoying.
3. The larger force always have the advantage to hide a major part of their force in such recons and still use a few guys in juicy targets as bait. The smaller force will simply run into an unwinnable fight without chance to avoid it. It makes engaging larger numbers almost suicidal.
@ CCP Rise: What kind of logic is it, to say "more fights will happen if people do not know what awaits them and so chose to fight where they normally would have ran away!" - think about what you just said there: You *force* frustration because you deny people to make the right decisions based on their scouting and experience. That is what people makes quit and saying "what a damn waste of time!" after they ran into a complete unwinnable fight just because the other side had "invisible units". Jesus... |
Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
73
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:34:28 -
[13] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:2. This only applies to medium FW plexes and PVE acceleration gates. Just go fight somewhere else, space is big.
3. Not much difference from having the calvary cloaked or >14 AU away And here is why you are soooo wrong.
I am not limited to medium FW plexes, I an set up this trap at ANY celestial where people can warp to 0-100. If there is an acceleration gate that wont let me go in, I simply wait BEFORE that gate at 50km. Same goes for Planets, Belts, Moons, Star. Whoever is warping there will land more or less 50km within my ganksquads range and is simply *dead*. And if other Recons are incoming, my Squad is in Warp before they have a lock.
So yes, it is a HUGE difference in reaction time window for the incoming pilots between invisible recons and "cavalry 14 AU out". A HUGE one.
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment
91
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Posted - 2015.01.14 10:38:22 -
[14] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Proteus is live and the Combat Recons are DSCAN immune. Has Eve been ruined? Nobody said EvE would be ruined as a whole.
On the other hand, it took me like 5 minutes after login to farm the first guy who dared to warp to a plex in his cruiser. Not a lot he could do after landing on grid, being pointed and neuted. https://zkillboard.com/kill/43843780/
Spoke with other guys who tried the same and its hilarious what an easy meatgrinder CCP gave us pirates. Thanks a lot for buffing us gankers and showing the finger to every Beginner who cannot afford to bring a Probing-Alt to before making any step in Lowsec. Well done.
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Syzygium
Friends Of Harassment
93
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Posted - 2015.01.14 21:37:17 -
[15] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote: we told you Rise. Solution: mob the **** out of them with a frig fleet and shower yourself and your buds with expensive killmails. Just be sure to send the right guys in beforehand to get point... What *exactly* is your idea for warping into that plex that can tackle one of these Recons long enough for your support to arrive while being neuted, jammed, damped and webbed?
A triple-ECCMed, triple-Sensorboosted, dualcapboosted, dual 1600mm plated, 100MN AB Cynabal maybe?
Oh wait... there could be a medslot/powergid problem.
On the other hand, what again was your solution for the SOLO (!!!!!!!!!!) beginner who wants to join LowSec FW in his first Frig/Destroyer/Cruiser? Ah wait...: "Don't do FW in Lowsec until you can come with a 10+ Gang!"
Yeah thats a great idea, because the concept of "just bring the blob" is what everyone out there wants and needs for having a fun time in Blob Online... |
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