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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
574
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Posted - 2014.12.20 19:24:15 -
[1] - Quote
The question is simply does the level of tedium surrounding pissing about scanning ALL the time....outweigh people's risk aversion. It probably does. Maybe not for a few weeks whilst novelty wears off, but it probably will.
PS: remember to check under your bed for rooks. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
575
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Posted - 2014.12.21 21:17:36 -
[2] - Quote
All this drama would make a lot more sense if cloaks didn't exist. Invisible ships aren't new. Invisible instant tackle isn't new. There are now a couple less 100% safe areas in eve - OH THE HUMANITY!!
Quite frankly the volume of people crying they might not be able to avoid every fight, ever or only ever engage in favourable circumstance is shameful. Get back to high sec.
I do feel for the Pirates, targets will thin a little at first. But it shouldn't last. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
576
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 08:04:45 -
[3] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:Combat recon warps to you, unseen on dscan. He arrives to your grid, you see him on your overview. From this moment it takes him as long to lock you as it would take if he was flying a force recon, and decloaked. No change here. Force recons have decloaking delay bonus? Zappity wrote:Now or after Proteus? I imagine that probing will become more important for both activities. Which is fine. It's not. Lanucher for combat probes are hard to fit (CPU) which means you will need another ship to scout, which means usually activity will take more time, hulls, alt. If this game need another account to play something is wrong here.
You don't /need/ two accounts, you just need to accept that sometimes **** happens and you're going to die. Like jumping into an unscouted gate camp, death is just as assured.
People also forget this goes both ways - the recon warping to the ratter might be warping to a ratter and another few recons.... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
580
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Posted - 2014.12.22 09:44:01 -
[4] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:afkalt wrote:You don't /need/ two accounts, you just need to accept that sometimes **** happens and you're going to die. Like jumping into an unscouted gate camp, death is just as assured. If i lost ship to unscanned gate camp it will be my fault.
How exactly are you scanning a gate camp BEFORE jumping in?
Now you're just flat out making stuff up to suit the recon boogyman thing you've got going.
Honestly, people are acting like there's going to be a half dozen recons around every corner. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
580
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 10:41:30 -
[5] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:afkalt wrote:How exactly are you scanning a gate camp BEFORE jumping in?
Now you're just flat out making stuff up to suit the recon boogyman thing you've got going.
Honestly, people are acting like there's going to be a half dozen recons around every corner. I lived in lowsec and i know how pirates are ganking ships at explo sites. It will be way to easy with new recons.
So now you've moved to crying about exploration sites?
If only there was a class of ship that could probe these sites and get there cloaked so that the big bad horrible recon can't hurt them. Man that would be super. They should call it like....covert ops or something. That would fix this problem right up.
Oh. Wait.
The only legitimate complaint point of note is medium plexes and even then, that boils down to "someone might PvP my isk farming ship" which is....yeah....let's leave that one there. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
580
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 10:48:46 -
[6] - Quote
Ehud Gera wrote:AND btw, it's a sandbox.... so maybe we shouldn't punish carebears and pve'rs for building their sandcastles just because they like a different layout...
We're not, the assertion is that PvEers should be exposed to danger and moving their risk away from 100% safety is not a bad thing.
Destruction is the lifeblood of the game - if nothing blew up, the game wouldnt last 3 months. Industry: dead. Mining: Dead. Mission LP farming: Dead. Exploration loot: Dead. WH loot: Dead. Everything....dead.
The entire game feeds ships exploding. More of those make it better for everyone in the long run/bigger picture.
Even if sometimes it's inconvenient for the person exploding. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
586
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 13:18:19 -
[7] - Quote
Belinda HwaFang wrote:However, since Combat Recons don't need a cloak to hide from DSCAN they can appear on grid from out of nowhere and point the target without worry of any targeting delay because they were never cloaked in the first place
To be fair, you're on grid a good while "decelerating" before locking is a possibility.
We've all seen the reverse when a hostile warps in and you're mashing lock and getting nothing but "target is invulnerable" messages back until it's "out of warp".
Something small would get out, something bigger and fit for PvP should be equipped to punch it in the face. Curse is probably the most dangerous in this scenario.
People do seem fixated on the "victim" (the person warped to) though, as if there is no possibility of there being a curse or two waiting at the warp in point to give a would be pirate the good news. These will be glorious over/under/all around bait cynos
Edited to add:
Belinda HwaFang wrote:The little difference it does make is that it is more powerful than a covert cloak.
It's not though, it's more powerful in a direct combat situation - in areas of space where you're hunting, laying in wait, traversing hostile space a cloak is infinitely superior. Dscan immunity rewards aggression, not hiding. The cloak rewards subterfuge, sneakiness.
They're different tools for different jobs and actually when I think about it split the recon line nicely. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
586
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 13:24:36 -
[8] - Quote
The actual message is irrelevant, the point I was trying to get across as I'm sure you're well aware is you're on grid WELL before you can lock.
A more accurate message would be along the lines of interference from your warp. I'm going from memory and tbh the message text isn't something I care much about remembering verbatim so much as the mechanic.
You're nitpicking if that's all you've got tbh. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
586
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 13:39:25 -
[9] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ill be fitting 2 T2 hyperspacial velocity rigs to by ganking huggin. At 5au/s it should arrive on grid quite fast. With twin OH sebos it will lock very shortly after.
Some things will get away. Far less likely if they have their prop mod on.
Im not nitpicking, having flown in low sec for a while know i can tell you i will not be alone in abusing the hell out of this.
There are probably 3 dozen people at the moment who often run around in my area in smartbombing proteus. Riskless pvp is very appealing to a lot of people.
And as I'm sure you're aware that using 5 or 6 of your 6 mids (2 sebos, tackle, prop mod, web [perhaps 2]) leaves you pretty much tankless and will be smashed to pieces by even a T1 cruiser fit for fighting. Hell an assault frigate would probably ruin your day.
So maybe you can kill little frigs asleep at the wheel. I'm not seeing the end of days here tbh. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
586
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 13:49:18 -
[10] - Quote
So, point is - the sky aint falling and your targets are confined to small stuff or bringing more ships.
Why is it not a problem for you to hunt with someone else but for others to have backup? Why do these niche weird fits survive camps - perhaps because they have been scouted - so again why can't other people scout?
All the arguments against this are pretty contrived/one rule for one set of players and another rule for others. Really are all boiling down to this:
afkalt wrote:The only legitimate complaint point of note is medium plexes and even then, that boils down to "someone might PvP my isk farming ship" which is....yeah....let's leave that one there. .
Your primary target type which you'll kill are just as killable today using rocket bombers. Last I checked the skies aren't raining dead covops. |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
586
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 14:06:07 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Monday update - I'm working on a revised proposal but it's a bit slow going with everyone but me out of the office to visit their families (boring). Hopefully some new stuff for you guys soon.
Can you at least confirm if dscan immunity is staying or going in this pass (since it's literally all people seem to care about). Otherwise the feedback will be a bit haphazard.
I appreciate an earlier post said it's staying, but would be good to clear up.
Thanks |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
589
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 17:49:10 -
[12] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Monday update - I'm working on a revised proposal but it's a bit slow going with everyone but me out of the office to visit their families (boring). Hopefully some new stuff for you guys soon. Out of all the EW drones being built, almost all are ECM drones. This is not because the other ones are worthless. It is just because ECM is so powerful. I mean after all; why damp/paint/web/tracking disrupt when you can make the target unable to lock anything?
Well, the other EWAR drones being literally terrible doesn't help much. Either castrated by stacking penalties or so ineffective as to be laughable (neut drones) or bugged (webs).
You could delete ECM tomorrow and the ewar drone landscape wouldn't change. It is never worth losing the damage potential for the pissant returns they give.
I suggested these were given the gecko treatment before but don't know that they cared for it. Gecko treatment being bulking up size and bandwidth to allow sidestepping stacking penalties and allowing buffed ewar effects. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
595
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 11:21:53 -
[13] - Quote
Some of the best fights I've had are hopelessly outnumbered where we all die but take chunks of the enemy with us. 'Here we go, kill as many as we can - primary ....'
Best fights ever, sure we could evade - but that's not what is all about is it? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 15:07:42 -
[14] - Quote
Not ANOTHER kinetic lock in :( |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 15:26:04 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We are disappointed too with having to pull back the resists for fleets. These ships just need that drawback to balance them at smaller scales where they are more likely to get used anyway.
We have T3 rebalance, black ops rebalance, and potential ewar module changes on the horizon to help address this as well.
Shouldn't the cloaky recons be weaker? Maybe a small boost to combats to seperate them? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 17:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lvzbel Ixtab wrote:S'No Flake wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Monday update - I'm working on a revised proposal but it's a bit slow going with everyone but me out of the office to visit their families (boring). Hopefully some new stuff for you guys soon. Targeting an enemy player is 99% of combat in this game. ECM and to an extent, dampeners are not healthy at all. You have the opportunity to change that. The end result should not be where the affected ship is unable to target anything when the EW is applied. ECM is a terrible mechanic for a couple reasons:
- Obviously not being able to lock a target means it functions as a 'Get out of jail free' card for the enemy of the person who is jammed resulting in less combat.
- Out of all the EW drones being built, almost all are ECM drones. This is not because the other ones are worthless. It is just because ECM is so powerful. I mean after all; why damp/paint/web/tracking disrupt when you can make the target unable to lock anything?
- Because ECM is so over the top powerful when it works, the fast dirty way of balancing it has been to reduce the chance it will work resulting in nothing happening when the module is activated. This is a terrible light switch mechanic. All or nothing.
- There is no counter play for those who are jammed. For 20 seconds plus the amount of time it takes to relock the targets - there is nothing you can do. Sure some will go on about using drones, smartbombs and F.O.F. missiles, but no one is ever able to provide results where these things caused them to win the fight. The ship ECMing the target is almost always aligned so even if they put drones on the them, they will just warp to a ping (which is even easier now with on grid bookmarks visible) and they will be rejammed as soon as it lands. Smartbombs only work if the enemy ships are in range and again, decides to stick around long enough to die to them. Even if you killed the ECM drones with the smartbombs, chances are that 20+ seconds was enough to tip the scale in the fight anyways. Obviously F.O.F. missiles are a joke, especially considering if the person being jammed is not in a missile boat, they don't get to use them.
ECM is just a bad game mechanic. Notice how almost all of the arguments against combat recons not being on directional scanner uses the Rook in the example. It's not necessarily the Rook they fear, it is ECM. ECM does not need to be nerfed. It needs to be replaced!We have tracking disruption, a missile disruption EW would be welcomed. Everyone is so sick of Drones Online, where is the drone disruption? Would be nice to target that Ishtar/Dominix, turn on my Balmer series drone disruption and those sentries become less effective at those extreme ranges. Even if you guys are not ready to release new EW, at least replace ECM with a couple existing EW in the game until then. Target painting makes sense. With ECM out of the picture, you can get rid of ECCM resulting in far less off grid boosting ships as well. ( sorry slippery Petes. you were a cowards ship anyways) There is no point in leaving in such a terrible game mechanic when you guys can easily pull it right now and replace it with existing EW that actually has counter play. You really hate ECM don't you? Why there are entire fleets flying celestis and not entire fleets flying blackbirds? Because ECM it's worst than damps? Right? :rolleyes: Yes they are all you have to do is get closer with damps, with ECM there is nothing you can do
Logis fear damps a HELL of a lot more, but by all means worry about a 'maybe' from ECM. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
597
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Posted - 2014.12.23 18:51:46 -
[17] - Quote
Ehud Gera wrote:Why DSCAN immunity? Why? Please, tell us.
Is there a well thought out reason for this besides "moar ganks will happen"?
I liked the resist bonuses because it lent something to the fleet role this ship could take, but the Dscan thing threw a monkey wrench in and now it's the priority thing.
Can you tell us why you want this ship to be a gankers paradise but not fill out the much more practical role of fleet recon EWAC (Ewar Cruiser)
I'd venture, and this is but a guess, that they are meant for small work. In the fleet setting there's no real point in not using the T1s. The bonuses are the same (unless you're failing and using ecm), the life expectancy isn't enough of a gap to justify the cost on a hull liable to be primary/secondary.
It'd be nice to have them in larger fleets, but I imagine practical bounds/considerations will always prevent it. Plus it gives low skilled people something useful to fly (t1 variants) in large fights. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
613
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Posted - 2014.12.26 01:49:48 -
[18] - Quote
Give dscan immunity to force recons. Give Combat recons full resist set. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
615
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Posted - 2014.12.28 23:39:31 -
[19] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Actually you can nerf them pretty severely and they will still have a lot of uses.
Just not WH. Which is what they're built for.
A sufficiently heavy T3 nerf demands a massive WH shakeup. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
615
|
Posted - 2014.12.29 11:20:11 -
[20] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Good luck catching combat recons with D-SCAN immunity.
Nobody actively trying to avoid probes is ever getting caught if they're not afk. This is hardly a "new" thing. |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
620
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Posted - 2014.12.30 08:28:03 -
[21] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.
Nope. Check local. See 10. D-scan - see 5. Assume 5 are Recons. Avoid fight.
Please tell me (and I'm being serious) how this is any different from the force recons today?
Decloaking delay is irrelevant as you'll be hard tackled by the other 5. Lack of 'power' not wholly relevant because there are 5.
If you only ever take fights when you can account for every pilot in local you must take many.... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
675
|
Posted - 2015.01.15 17:25:14 -
[22] - Quote
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:How is it any different if they had a Falcon? Or any other cloaked ship? I keep seeing this question from characters who should be old enough to understand and I ask myself: troll or truly ignorant? If you don't understand how a cloak is different from d-scan immunity, you might want to spend a bit more time investigating, reading and thinking before wasting electrons with such willful badposting. If you're trolling, then carry on.
If they weren't using the dragoon for the actual tackle, you might have a point. Decloaking delay is irrelevant if that ship is not the one holding tackle. This doesnt take a rocket scientist as the dragoon is doing way more damage (drones unassistable intially as they show on dscan).
Also a dragoon would crap all over half those ships on its own anyway.
And lastly, there's NOTHING stopping a half dozen recons warping into that plex and chewing out the other two ships. Door goes both ways. |
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