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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
524
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:46:01 -
[811] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:
Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.
What strong counter arguments, they are all chaff type HTFU cheer-leading or weak arguments, I was enticed back by the jump changes and the slight tilt towards role playing, but the D-scan immunity makes it certain death. I am not sure I will wait for your explanation before hitting the de-sub button, in fact damn it I am de-subbing now and I will put this as my reason. Its ill thought out and makes it even easier for the easy gank crowd, WTF are you doing!
Ella's Snack bar
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
721
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:46:49 -
[812] - Quote
CCP Rise - the one explanation I would like from you is why D-scan immunity for recons is better than LOCAL IMMUNITY for recons.
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Daneel Trevize
Faster Path Than of Light Exiles
529
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:47:06 -
[813] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Space is 3d, if you warp @100 to a celestial from an 'odd' angle you're very likely to land well over 50km away from anything on-grid, potentially up to 200km away. Almost all Eve systems are limited to being designed on a 2D plane. Statisically most warp angles will come from the centre of the system, almost none offer you even 90degrees deviation, almost certainly not for the outer half of the celestials count.
So now you want to start bouncing moons to generate odd angles. Yet another pressure to fly something that can align fast and deal with frigs, because you're going to have to deal with POS and tacklers following you as you spend more time lumbering about at locations with no 'out' choice. |
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
53
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:47:33 -
[814] - Quote
Daneel Trevize wrote:You seem to be deliberately ignoring the very answers I've already stated. Do you not see the difference between being able to escape if you land at ~70km but can warp your ship in <6 seconds, and being tackled in ~2 seconds as soon as you try? Do you not see that this utterly huge increase in non-cloaky recon potency would increase the number of people flying these ships??
And that it ruins any attempt at skillful timing of a longer-running solo fight, where you're trying to not only handle what's on grid but also assess what you see coming in ~14AU?
Obviously I'm not deliberately ignoring anything. It just doesn't make sense to me.
In regards to your point; I see the difference there, but I don't follow how you're arriving at the conclusion that that scenario will happen. How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?
Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function. |
Jhaelee de'Auvrie
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
17
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:48:58 -
[815] - Quote
Over all the stat adjustment on the Recons seems like a good idea. Giving the non-cloaking ones more durability should hopefully see increased usage in comparison to how it is now. The major thing that got my attention was the idea of Recons not showing up on D-Scan. That seems crazy.
The directional scanner is one of the fundamental mechanics in the game. It is probably the single most useful tool in EVE when it comes to in-space decision making. Messing with core decision making dynamics will have drastic effects. Even if it is just a single class of ships, damaging players trust in that will lead to more avoidance of conflict than it will enjoyable content.
Considering the advantage (and thus reason for taking a high slot/fittings) of a cloaking device is to avoid detection. Be it from the overview, probes, or the directional scanner. Giving that advantage to Recons for free negates the importance of having normal detection avoidance fitted on ships. Suddenly you have stealth ships with no downside (no slot loss, no scan res loss, nothing).
Looking at the Mobile Scan Inhibitor as an example, if this kind of change is going to go forward, at how things should be done without providing no possible chance of detection. Instead of just not having the Recon ship show up at all, have it show up as a non-informative GÇ£Recon CruiserGÇ¥ (instead of Curse/Falcon/Rapier/whatever). This would still provide that all important information that there are Recon ships there, just not specifically which ones. This would also be in line with the Mobile Scan Inhibitor, which itself shows up on scan telling the detector that something might be there.
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Dullmeyr Prodomo
Gnartz
38
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:50:22 -
[816] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Dscan immunity is staying.
I bet you did not had to read all the posts in this thread to make this "decision". :p
o/ |
Daneel Trevize
Faster Path Than of Light Exiles
529
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:51:00 -
[817] - Quote
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?
Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function. Because the lach won't have to be on the ball and make the player action of decloaking sufficiently in time to have cleared their decloak delay. The lazy lach ****** can just see you land and go 'oh, something to tackle' and ruin your day. They won't be caught out trigging their decloak just to find you'd warped to a nearby offgrid tactical exactly to provoke that response in order to test for awake recon pilots!
It's promoting brain-dead gameplay from those that already have the numbers advantage because they're risk-averse blobbers. |
Altayr555
Enter Ice La Division Bleue
4
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:56:38 -
[818] - Quote
-1 for a big enormous error^^ |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1656
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:58:29 -
[819] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Just for the sake of discussion:
1. Try Pirate's Little Helper. Awesome intel on carebears vs. pvpers (based on zkill stats), corp/alliance and affiliation, common EWAR/cap ship/cyno bait pilots, etc. It's super easy to use (just ctrl-a ctrl-c local). And come on, even on weekends there's rarely more than 20-30 or so in lowsec local...
2. This only applies to medium FW plexes and PVE acceleration gates. Just go fight somewhere else, space is big.
3. Not much difference from having the calvary cloaked or >14 AU away
Not saying that you're flat wrong, but thankfully EVE PVP is complex enough that players will always find solutions to other players' tactics. That's part of the fun.
Just saying you honestly can't be 100% (or even 90%) sure that this d-scan thing will be bad, instead of fun for all. Excellent post which pretty much sums it up for me. A typical solo system would see 5-10 in local. Copy into PLH will quickly identify the PvP toons and a quick rollover will show any with recent Combat Recon kills. You already do this when you enter system. If you identify a probable pilot, go to the Small or Novice, or go to the next system, or drop probes, or YOLO. Or hop in a Combat Recon and go hunting!
Seriously, yes this will shake things up a bit. But it isn't the dire crisis some are predicting.
I would LOVE to see a solid solo hunter ship get local immunity. Maybe the Stratios...
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Challus Mercer
Sacred Temple The Gorgon Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.12.19 12:58:42 -
[820] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Dscan immunity is staying. Ok, if there is no sense to discuss about cancelling this feature, i would propose another approach to milder the negative effect of this on solo and small scale pvp. Nerf the scan res of combat recons so that their locking time would be equal to force recon with recalibration delay after decloaking. It wont have big impact on fleet fights but it will help smaller ships to escape this recon madness. I think it will help a lot with balancing this OP ability. Like this post if you agree! |
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Kane Fenris
NWP
156
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:00:12 -
[821] - Quote
i feel like the target painter boni on the minmatar hulls are still pretty useles (esp on the huginn) caue i feel like you always want the web and dont want to use up your mids fitting both... and if i think youd fit 2x webs... |
gabrial13
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:02:07 -
[822] - Quote
Undetectable on directional scan, that is just stupid . Come on ccp , I know recons have lost popularity due to the t3's but this will make hunter killer recons unstoppable and way overpowered, the solution is to wait for the t3 rebalance and of course try and find some use for the pilgrim. This will just cause more problems than solutions, just my view of it |
Daneel Trevize
Faster Path Than of Light Exiles
530
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:02:50 -
[823] - Quote
Challus Mercer wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Dscan immunity is staying. Ok, if there is no sense to discuss about cancelling this feature, i would propose another approach to milder the negative effect of this on solo and small scale pvp. Nerf the scan res of combat recons so that their locking time would be equal to force recon with recalibration delay after decloaking. It wont have big impact on fleet fights but it will help smaller ships to escape this recon madness. I think it will help a lot with balancing this OP ability. Like this post if you agree! Only if they're also made immune to RSBs.
And it still ruins the solo or small gang players that have committed to a fight and want to react to dscan to time their leaving/repositioning. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
2805
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:03:54 -
[824] - Quote
Daneel Trevize wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?
Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function. Because the lach won't have to be on the ball and make the player action of decloaking sufficiently in time to have cleared their decloak delay. The lazy lach ****** can just see you land and go 'oh, something to tackle' and ruin your day. They won't be caught out trigging their decloak from their dscan assessment just to find you'd warped to a nearby offgrid tactical exactly to provoke that response in order to test for awake recon pilots!It's promoting brain-dead gameplay from those that already have the numbers advantage because they're risk-averse blobbers. In a game supposedly with a huge basis in risk:reward. Meh, I've never been a fan of the risk:reward crap for PVP. I've always thought it was more of a PVE thing, because in PVP risk:reward is largely controlled by the players themselves.
I'm more of a fan of the 'you're better than the others --> you win' thing, and I don't see how this dscan immunity thing would advantage 'bad' players in any way.
What I see is, lots of wannabe gankers flying around in combat recons, thinking 'lololol my dscan immunity is an easy win button', and being obliterated by better players that will put some effort in it (such as yourself, probably).
Stop thinking of (plausible) ways that the brain-dead dudes could kill you, and start thinking of the ways that will allow you to kill them, as they deserve!!!
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Bentakhar
Minmatar Death Squad
21
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:04:14 -
[825] - Quote
To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,
Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.
So relax |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14281
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:05:59 -
[826] - Quote
Bentakhar wrote:To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,
Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.
So relax
But but my FW plexing!
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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HoruSeth
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:06:25 -
[827] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:... Excellent post which pretty much sums it incorrectly up for me.
You missed to type one word. I corrected for you. Why he is wrong was explained before your post.
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Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
243
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:06:29 -
[828] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:CCP Rise - the one explanation I would like from you is why D-scan immunity for recons is better than LOCAL IMMUNITY for recons.
Because that would be useless in W-Space. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
2805
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:06:29 -
[829] - Quote
I admit this is usually my go-to option, so maybe I'm biased.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Bentakhar
Minmatar Death Squad
21
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:06:45 -
[830] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bentakhar wrote:To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,
Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.
So relax But but my FW plexing!
FW kinda sucks |
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Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
57
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:06:59 -
[831] - Quote
Daneel Trevize wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?
Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function. Because the lach won't have to be on the ball and make the player action of decloaking sufficiently in time to have cleared their decloak delay. The lazy lach ****** can just see you land and go 'oh, something to tackle' and ruin your day. They won't be caught out trigging their decloak from their dscan assessment just to find you'd warped to a nearby offgrid tactical exactly to provoke that response in order to test for awake recon pilots!It's promoting brain-dead gameplay from those that already have the numbers advantage because they're risk-averse blobbers. In a game supposedly with a huge basis in risk:reward.
Ah. OK, I see your point now, thanks for the explanation.
I'm afraid I don't agree that this is a problem particularly though. I think that the number of pilots whom currently warp to nearby celestials in an attempt to persuade possible cloaked recons on grid to shed their cloak and get rid of the targetting delay is extremely small, and that the ability to avoid giving the game away to those few clever pilots will not be considered worth giving up the ability of cloaked ships to remain undetected by far more numerous interceptor and covops scouts.
So I don't think this change will result in people picking the combat recons over cloaky recons any more commonly than they do now, and when they do choose to take the combat recon I don't think they'll be particularly more successful at tackling people who warp to them unsuspecting. |
Luscius Uta
121
|
Posted - 2014.12.19 13:07:59 -
[832] - Quote
Dscan immunity is a terrible idea. However, if there's no chance of it going away at least counter it with a big nerf to scan resolution - or even introduce some kind of a siege module that can only be fitted on combat recons, and they would be immune to dscan only when it's active. Having this module active would also give 75% penalty to scan resolution (and resebos wouldn't work) and it would prevent warping but not moving. No fuel use, cycle time 60 seconds. The recon siege module is not a well thought idea, but that's why I'm posting it on a public forum, to see if there's someone willing to improve it.
I'm not fat, I'm just over-tanked!
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Daneel Trevize
Faster Path Than of Light Exiles
530
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:12:44 -
[833] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Stop thinking of (plausible) ways that the brain-dead dudes could kill you, and start thinking of the ways that will allow you to kill them, as they deserve!!! But I still have to plan to get through ubiquitous linked t1 logi, so I must bring significant damage projection, rather than a recon. Oh and I can't practically bring BCs or BSs for on-paper dps as they're pathetic in general, common situations, over bringing a HAC or pirate/faction cruiser.
Long ranged tackle won't kill people you don't outnumber, or have a minumum relative speed advange of your fleet vs theirs, which huginns would remove without warning. Damps also require a minimum number of dps ships & damps to be effective and even then can be piloted against so as to be negated. And again **** ECM. So how do I use these recons against overwhelming numbers? Force multipliers need a force to multiple. When both sides have them, the larger force is still stronger. |
Jori McKie
TURN LEFT The Camel Empire
187
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:14:13 -
[834] - Quote
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:Daneel Trevize wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?
Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function. Because the lach won't have to be on the ball and make the player action of decloaking sufficiently in time to have cleared their decloak delay. The lazy lach ****** can just see you land and go 'oh, something to tackle' and ruin your day. They won't be caught out trigging their decloak from their dscan assessment just to find you'd warped to a nearby offgrid tactical exactly to provoke that response in order to test for awake recon pilots!It's promoting brain-dead gameplay from those that already have the numbers advantage because they're risk-averse blobbers. In a game supposedly with a huge basis in risk:reward. Ah. OK, I see your point now, thanks for the explanation. I'm afraid I don't agree that this is a problem particularly though. I think that the number of pilots whom currently warp to nearby celestials in an attempt to persuade possible cloaked recons on grid to shed their cloak and get rid of the targetting delay is extremely small, and that the ability to avoid giving the game away to those few clever pilots will not be considered worth giving up the ability of cloaked ships to remain undetected by far more numerous interceptor and covops scouts. So I don't think this change will result in people picking the combat recons over cloaky recons any more commonly than they do now, and when they do choose to take the combat recon I don't think they'll be particularly more successful at tackling people who warp to them unsuspecting.
Nope, almost every passable good PvP lowsec Pilot does it. I do this all the time when i see a gate camp, warp in my ship at 0 and the bad ones on the other site just decloak their Rapier, Falcon whatever to get rid of the cloak delay. I know then what i have to deal with. I mark every Falcon, Rapier pilot i encounter in game, everyone. If i see a marked one in local i won't blind warp into any medium plex at all, just warp to a nearby celestial and see if something decloaks.
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
--áAbrazzar
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Fatal pewpew
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
2
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:14:31 -
[835] - Quote
well i know what i'm about to start flying. |
Draciste
Everyone vs Everything THE R0NIN
27
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:14:38 -
[836] - Quote
well, because Ceptors & Drones only age is still not enough, here is the third one - Recons age.
Everyone vs Everything [qEvEp] - https://qevep.zkillboard.com/corporation/98188033/
https://twitter.com/Draciste
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Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
57
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:15:00 -
[837] - Quote
Daneel Trevize wrote:[. So how do I use these recons against overwhelming numbers? Force multipliers need a force to multiple. When both sides have them, the larger force is still stronger.
Well duh. When 2 equal forces are multiplied by two equal force multipliers, they're still equal forces. If one side is stronger to begin with obviously they'll still be stronger if they have the same recons.
Force multipliers help bring a weaker force in line with a stronger force that has no multipliers. |
Grookshank
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
40
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:15:15 -
[838] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:
Biggest concern at the moment is the added EHP. Making recons a more realistic fleet option next to T3 cruisers is good, making them too tanky in smaller situations where their ewar already gives them a lot of damage evasion may be too much. Not sure if change is needed but will keep looking at this and update again asap.
If you reverse this, they will hardly be a viable option for fleet fights, but stay a big "hit me" sign in space :(
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1656
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:19:31 -
[839] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bentakhar wrote:To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,
Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.
So relax But but my FW plexing! Oh my goodness, I am going to catch SO MANY of those miserable stabbed plexers with my Lachesis. There will be rivers in local.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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big miker
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
246
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Posted - 2014.12.19 13:23:27 -
[840] - Quote
Oh CCP Rise. This time you are proposing something that is too much.
I love doing one thing in EVE, which is flying nano Battleships against the odds. My latest 2 video's have been nano Battleships only. You know that, and you loved my latest video. Not to mention you liked my fight the most in the one man crew competition.
And then I see this showing up. Combat recons imune to d-scan. What on earth are you thinking with this change? This will not only ruin the thing I love doing which is nano Battleships, but this pretty much ruins solo pvp in general except for frigate pvp. Do I seriously need anather few alts to place on gates in order to see if there are combat recons around? Not to mention, checking out POS's in systems to see if there's recons waiting inside?
The situation you described earlier, 2 vexors and 2 rooks camping a gate. If you know what's on that gate you don't engage. Sure, that's logic! After the changes you do not see them on the gate so you warp in anyways. What happens? You die. Was it a fun engagement? HELL NO! Getting killed pointlessly.
So in order to properly fight something now you need: - Scout alt - Combat probes. WTB additional highslot + 220 cpu increase on all ships. - Friends in scout ships
Allright, you now have friends in scout ships warping around cloaked. Enemy gang sees you + corp m8's in local and see nothing but you on scan. What on earth will they think? Combat recons everywhere! exactly, they will either flee or not engage you at all becuase they are expecting the very same thing.
This is just a rediculous example of what will become of solo / small gang pvp. Claoky recons do exactly what the proposed combat recons do right now.
And then there's the risk vs reward factor. Cloaky recons can be seen / d-scanned when they jump in a gate and try to cloak again. Risk of using a cloaking device. When cloaky recons deloak they have a 5 / 6 second lock delay. Which is a risk. You are given a small time/frame to REACT on something that can get you killed., which basically is player skill. The reward is being able to warp cloaked in a VERY STRONG SUPPORT SHIP. Recons allready are very strong support ships.
The DPS increase, cap increase and hitpoint increase makes them alot stronger than they are curruntly. Makes them desirable for larger fleets becuase they won't get instablapped as easily anymore.
I understand you want do give ships a new kind of role, something that makes them stand out of the regular ships. D-scan imunity however is not something you are looking for. Cloaks do that with the proper risk vs reward they have right now. Not to mention wormhole space will be Recons online, combined with a t3 OP fleet that follows it.
And please balance t3's asap. 150+k EHP Battleship DPS Cruisers with ewar bonus's is just stupid. Especially if you want to combine these things with d-scan imune Recons....
- A very mad Miker
Latest video: Ferocious 4.0 Official Release
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