cant see why without tech II resist i would use a lach over a celestis for a fleet fight.

Okay, first major update just edited into the OP.

Major changes:

We're going to go with a lighter resist profile than originally described, setting all eight recons at the former combat recon resist profile. While we still like the goal of making them more fleet viable, their tank was one of their only stand-out weaknesses and we felt that removing it could make them oppressive at smaller scales. To compensate somewhat we've trimmed 5 more sig radius of each ship.

With the Pilgrim we decided to split the difference between neut range and strength by wrapping both into one bonus. The amounts will be smaller than either of the singular bonuses but this should do a nice job of giving more engagement range flexibility while still allowing for plenty of cap pressure.

We are going to move one high slot on the Lachesis to a low slot, making armor slightly more viable while still preserving room in the mids for damps as well as long range warp disruption. The damage potential for the Lach is still on par with other combat recons even without the fifth high so we feel this fits better than giving up a mid.

The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.

Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

Have a great Christmas o/

ROOK
Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to kinetic missile damage (was 5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire)
10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer activation cost

Recon Ships Bonuses:
30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity

Slot layout: 5H, 7M, 3L; 2 turrets, 5 launchers
Fittings: 680 PWG(+80), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2050(+262) / 965(+9) / 960(+359)
Capacitor (amount / capacitor per second) : 1250(+187) / 3.93/s(+.83)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / align time): 194(+24) / .61 / 10.76s(-.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 150km / 259 / 10
Sensor strength: 32 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 170(-3)

Targeting an enemy player is 99% of combat in this game. ECM and to an extent, dampeners are not healthy at all. You have the opportunity to change that. The end result should not be where the affected ship is unable to target anything when the EW is applied.

ECM is a terrible mechanic for a couple reasons:

• Obviously not being able to lock a target means it functions as a 'Get out of jail free' card for the enemy of the person who is jammed resulting in less combat.
• Out of all the EW drones being built, almost all are ECM drones. This is not because the other ones are worthless. It is just because ECM is so powerful. I mean after all; why damp/paint/web/tracking disrupt when you can make the target unable to lock anything?
• Because ECM is so over the top powerful when it works, the fast dirty way of balancing it has been to reduce the chance it will work resulting in nothing happening when the module is activated. This is a terrible light switch mechanic. All or nothing.
• There is no counter play for those who are jammed. For 20 seconds plus the amount of time it takes to relock the targets - there is nothing you can do. Sure some will go on about using drones, smartbombs and F.O.F. missiles, but no one is ever able to provide results where these things caused them to win the fight. The ship ECMing the target is almost always aligned so even if they put drones on the them, they will just warp to a ping (which is even easier now with on grid bookmarks visible) and they will be rejammed as soon as it lands. Smartbombs only work if the enemy ships are in range and again, decides to stick around long enough to die to them. Even if you killed the ECM drones with the smartbombs, chances are that 20+ seconds was enough to tip the scale in the fight anyways. Obviously F.O.F. missiles are a joke, especially considering if the person being jammed is not in a missile boat, they don't get to use them.

ECM is just a bad game mechanic. Notice how almost all of the arguments against combat recons not being on directional scanner uses the Rook in the example. It's not necessarily the Rook they fear, it is ECM.

ECM does not need to be nerfed. It needs to be replaced!

We have tracking disruption, a missile disruption EW would be welcomed. Everyone is so sick of Drones Online, where is the drone disruption? Would be nice to target that Ishtar/Dominix, turn on my Balmer series drone disruption and those sentries become less effective at those extreme ranges. Even if you guys are not ready to release new EW, at least replace ECM with a couple existing EW in the game until then. Target painting makes sense.

With ECM out of the picture, you can get rid of ECCM resulting in far less off grid boosting ships as well. (sorry slippery Petes. you were a cowards ship anyways)

There is no point in leaving in such a terrible game mechanic when you guys can easily pull it right now and replace it with existing EW that actually has counter play.

You really hate ECM don't you?
Why there are entire fleets flying celestis and not entire fleets flying blackbirds?

Because ECM it's worst than damps? Right? :rolleyes:

It's one of the tools that gives you far too much information for free, like local.

You either know someone is in local or not.
On D-scan, you either know they ship type, name and if they are on grid or not.

There should be a point where their are more unknowns, than knowns.

D-Scan should act more like scan probes and show unknown contacts at extreme ranges instead of always returning perfect information when you are in range.

There should be a range of uncertainty.

You really hate ECM don't you?
Why there are entire fleets flying celestis and not entire fleets flying blackbirds?

Because ECM it's worst than damps? Right? :rolleyes:

Yes they are all you have to do is get closer with damps, with ECM there is nothing you can do

Not ANOTHER kinetic lock in :(

Yes. I hate this too.
At some point they say they want to go away from the damage type bonus on caldari and they are doing pretty much the same old thing thing since then.

Thanks god for Kestrel.

Logis fear damps a HELL of a lot more, but by all means worry about a 'maybe' from ECM.

Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

Have a great Christmas o/

J

Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.

We are disappointed too with having to pull back the resists for fleets. These ships just need that drawback to balance them at smaller scales where they are more likely to get used anyway.

We have T3 rebalance, black ops rebalance, and potential ewar module changes on the horizon to help address this as well.

Why DSCAN immunity? Why? Please, tell us.

Is there a well thought out reason for this besides "moar ganks will happen"?

I liked the resist bonuses because it lent something to the fleet role this ship could take, but the Dscan thing threw a monkey wrench in and now it's the priority thing.

Can you tell us why you want this ship to be a gankers paradise but not fill out the much more practical role of fleet recon EWAC (Ewar Cruiser)

I don't understand what you are talking about here. Most of the people who have raised concerns have had very definitive points they were making about situations that are very real (wh's, fw). Meanwhile the only argument being made against it is 'mm tears" and 'nom nom nom gonna love killing bears now' neither of which contributes anything. The Faction Warfare concern is very legitimate in that it doesn't even favor those who are playing the game for faction warfare. In fact it benefits those who simply wish to be a nuisance to those participating in faction warfare.

Consider this bonus:

Recons: Invisible to local chat. Cannot fit Regular Cynos.

What does this do? Allows the Recon to do well, "recon". It's hidden in some ways, it gives incentive to the pilot to actually do recon instead of making it a gank mobile, while still upping the "Gank factor" for the unwary.

It makes afk farmers and lazy carebears work a bit harder cause now they actually have to watch dscan and gather intel from scouts etc.

But it makes it counterable, and interesting (especially in Null).Low sec dwellers are usually a bit more paranoid so they will be a little less affected but not a lot, and WH's, well in WH's everyone is incognito anyway, whether in a Recon or not you have to do "recon" because there are no gates, no local, etc.

Making them not appear on local will truly make Recons unique. To balance it you allow them to only use Covert cynos. Or maybe you want them to be able to Cyno regularly, I just think it would be cool to see more blops being used by allowing the Recon to have that niche role.

Thoughts?

Okay, first major update just edited into the OP.

Major changes:

We're going to go with a lighter resist profile than originally described, setting all eight recons at the former combat recon resist profile. While we still like the goal of making them more fleet viable, their tank was one of their only stand-out weaknesses and we felt that removing it could make them oppressive at smaller scales. To compensate somewhat we've trimmed 5 more sig radius of each ship.

With the Pilgrim we decided to split the difference between neut range and strength by wrapping both into one bonus. The amounts will be smaller than either of the singular bonuses but this should do a nice job of giving more engagement range flexibility while still allowing for plenty of cap pressure.

We are going to move one high slot on the Lachesis to a low slot, making armor slightly more viable while still preserving room in the mids for damps as well as long range warp disruption. The damage potential for the Lach is still on par with other combat recons even without the fifth high so we feel this fits better than giving up a mid.

The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.

Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

Have a great Christmas o/