I feel recons getting the dscan change is a small but indirect nerf to T3 viability in the economic sense. Less PVE in wormholes equals less tech 3 cruisers, which then equals higher market value and makes T3's even more painful to lose, at which point you might just use a slightly buffed recon anyway unless you have a nich+¬ use for the T3 that can't be filled by a vastly cheaper ship.

Marginal impact at best. Combat Recons are not going to be any real threat to wormhole PVE players or at least not any more of a threat than already exists with the Stratios and other T3's. They simply do not have the capability of being a strike ship (especially in WHs), because of their design limitations and the "hybrid tax".

I would gladly invite any Combat Recon to come visit me in a WH Site while im slugging it out with Seekers in my Tengu. Here is how it would go down.

CR warps into my site.
Seekers target/shoot CR.
I target/shoot CR.
CR Dies.
I keep playing.

They don't have the damage to be a threat, and they do not have the tank to play in sites...and unlike T3's, SB's, Astero, Stratios, or heck even some Force Recons, they can not come into the site with me without taking aggression from the sleepers. I feel comfortable in saying that Combat Recons will have no tangible impact on PVE in WH's, or at least not anymore than is already present with the other ships I mentioned.

*
For people who are unaware of what a hybrid tax is, it is a base reduction in quality of an entity that serves to function in more than one role at the same time. In this case the Combat Recons sees an innate reduction to its combat capacity (Damage/Tank) because it serves the secondary function of providing EWAR. As such people don't like them because they are not optimized in performing a singular role and are often bested by other ships that can perform those roles.


Now if CCP were to axe the EWAR capability from Combat Recons and change the EWAR bonuses to more combat specific ones (more damage, +resists etc) then Combat Recons might actually have the capacity to be a real threat to people. As it stands right now, DSCAN immunity is nothing more than a Gimmick trick on a ship class that has no defined role, and inferior in operation compared to ships that do have defined roles (or be made to have defined roles in the case of T3s).

[quote=Mario Putzo]
There are no other ships in game that can perform the role of a Curse, Huginn or Lachesis. The dominant fleet comp today depends on the unique features of Huginns and Lachesises.

As what comes to wh hunting, the CR used will be an armor Lach, acting as the primary tackler for the gankers, and you certainly can't shoot him. Best protection against it will be to position yourself +80km from the site warpin point. The change from today's ganking tools isn't dramatic, tho.

There's already been at least one suggestion I've seen so far...

The one ship that would really benefit, and it is not in the cruiser class, Is the Nestor. It would remove the biggest downside to using it in wormhole space, and would not "frighten" people like the suggestion that it would benefit from a covert ops cloak.
Warping with a covert fleet, is not currently a sane action outside of the home wormhole, or at best a controlled static.
This would allow the nestor to travel, playing to its main advantage, the low mass, which is currently wasted.

The transition of this thread from dialog about the Recons to Ishtar/Nestor balance signals that substantive contributions are now complete. Its encouraging that most people have really come around in the last 40 pages...


O. Faeces

A game breaking ******* bullshit mechanic. You should be ashamed.

No, it's because CCP has declared that they don't care what we think - no matter what, game breaking mechanic is going to be shoved down our throats.

CCP should focus more on actually making Combat Recons, combat capable

Completely agree with this. As specialized T2 ships, Combat Recons need to offer more to a fleet than their T1 counterparts - that should be equal or superior performance and superior survivability.

Completely agree with this. As specialized T2 ships, Combat Recons need to offer more to a fleet than their T1 counterparts - that should be equal or superior performance and superior survivability.

I've already shown that the Combat Recons have survivability on par with HACs, especially Huginn, Rook and Lach. As for EWAR superiority, with the exception of the Blackbird/Rook/Falcon range-bonus inversion, I think an EWAR rebalance is separate from the work of a recon ship rebalance.


O. F.

And the Rapier, Huginn, and Falcon can all get a similar tank with the same flexibility, similar DPS, and better EWAR.
...

With the exception of the Curse, the respective Force Recons of Minmatar and Gallente and Caldari are nearly the exact same as the Combat Recons, with similar fitting.

A quick comparison

Lach (4/7/4)
10% bonus to Hybrids Tracking
20% bonus to Points
7.5% bonus to Damps
10% to Hybrid Optimal

Arazu (4/6/4)
5% bonus to Hybrids
20% bonus to points
7.5% bonus to Damps
Cov Ops Cloak
Cov Ops Cyno

So what do you gain here...better tracking and optimal range damage wise? I suppose that would be nice. I guess if you shield fit them it would also be beneficial to have a Lach for that extra mid slot. Lach has 1 more weapon but the Arazu gets 25% more damage which is close in straight up damage potential...as well as the free slot to place a cloak in, or a missile launcher to actually end up having more upfront total damage output than the Lachesis if thats your thing.

The Lach has a bit more base Armor HP, but nothing to write home about, and a bit quicker lock speed, again nothing exceptional. Then the Arazu has the ability to forgo any damage, and act in a pure utility role with Cov Ops Cloak, Cov Ops Cyno can be an on grid warp in as well.

Similar story between the Huginn and Rapier, and the Rook and Falcon.

The only Combat Recon with a notable increase in its base functionality is the Curse vs the Pilgrim, the rest of them are all more or less carbon copies, with the same EWAR application and similar damage application. And after the change. 1 will have a Cov Ops cloak, the other will have DSCAN immunity...or Gimmick Cloak. Force Recons still can do Black Ops, Combat Recons still can not.

Pretty freaking unique eh!.

Mate the Lachs are indeed shield tanked and currently the Arazu just can't do it. It has almost 30k less EHP.

Nobody gives a **** about recon dps, their unique feature is to be long range tackle in shield fleetsand like said, there are no alternatives and the dominant fleet comp today hinges on the existence of the combat recons. They aren't "unused crap", they are ships which Ishtars Online depends on.

Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

Seriously, if you are going to make them immune to d-scan they need to have serious scan resolution penalties so they are n't just sitting around everywhere in space waiting to instant lock whatever shows up and hold it there forever.

I'm going to move into a C1/C2 with dual static. I will rotate my statics until I find something to attack.....their only warning will be a new signature. Seems fair to me! But maybe because I will be the one winning.

Has anyone considered giving force recons a "no targeting delay after decloak" instead of d-scan immunity? Combat recons don't have a cloak so it may make sense to only let them have the new d-scan immunity.

Right because you couldn't already be doing this with T3's, Force Recons, Stratios.

I honestly don't understand how people think this change is significant at all, let alone game breaking. Its a gimmick cloak that functions really no different than a cov ops cloak.

It isn't unique, its not special, and it is entirely redundant addition to the game. AKA a Gimmick.

I didn't say they were unused crap, I said they are marginally better than Force Recons in performing the EXACT same fleet role, and that this Gimmick change is going to do nothing to enhance that An Arazu will still be just about equal as a Lach after this change in a combat role, yet still have its host of other beneficial utility.

I think my favorite line though is. No one gives a **** about recon dps.

Case in point as to why these changes miss the mark. Combat Recons should combat. Force Recons should specialize in EWAR.


Also 30K more EHP from a Lach vs an Arazu....hue hue hue. You high son?