| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

EdwardNardella
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 20:53:33 -
[1] - Quote
So, anyone who has been around and working the markets long enough is aware of undercutting by .01 ISK.
I see a big problem with this. It is a task that could theoretically be completely automated rather easily. It is my opinion that any task that can be automated easily is probably going to be monotonous and boring. Monotonous and boring tasks are generally not very engaging and make for gameplay that is unapealing. Trading can be fun, being beat by .01 ISK is not, countering that by undercutting the competition by .01 ISK every 5 minutes is also not fun. This is however something can can be difficult to avoid if you want to have fun trading.
There are some things that I am aware of CCP doing to combat this issue. The first is restricting the use of automated tools to perform this task. Second, there is a 5 minute timer between order modifications. Third there is a minimum brokerage fee for order price changes. These things indicate to me that CCP also sees a problem with .01 ISK trading.
I have been thinking about solutions to this issue that are not game breaking. Here is what I have come up with so far, could it work?
Implement a feature similar to automatic bidders on auction sites. The person placing a buy or sell order would input two prices, the start price and the maximum or minimum price (depending on whether or not it is a sell or buy order). If someone else inputs an order with a start price that beats your start price but not your maximum or minimum price then your order will automatically and instantly be adjusted to beat the new order by .01 ISK (provided that their maximum or minimum does not beat yours, should it beat yours then your order will be adjusted to your best price and theirs would be .01 ISK better).
Anyone who does not want to use this feature would have the option of just setting their best price and start price as the same. Also you could have your order not be adjusted to match orders with less than a certain number of units or less than a certain percentage of the number of units that you have on sale.
One consequence of this is that prices would be closer to their actual value which should benefit people who are placing orders with immediate fulfillment.
Another is that time spent participating in .01 ISK trading will be reduced.
What does everyone think? |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14324
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:07:43 -
[2] - Quote
Don't be lazy.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|

Esmanpir
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
12
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:35:45 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy.
That's not productive feedback...  |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6881
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:06:14 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy. Not empty quoting.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
|

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3630
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:38:12 -
[5] - Quote
Find a better market to invest in.
Oh god.
|

Alundil
Isogen 5
803
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:53:04 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy. Not empty quoting. Neither am I
I'm right behind you
|

Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
673
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 23:14:51 -
[7] - Quote
Alundil wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy. Not empty quoting. Neither am I Works for me.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|

EdwardNardella
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 00:05:42 -
[8] - Quote
By don't be lazy do you mean to say stay awake 24/7 monitoring my orders? |

Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
780
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 00:14:10 -
[9] - Quote
EdwardNardella wrote:By don't be lazy do you mean to say stay awake 24/7 monitoring my orders?
You will not be at the top of the list 24/7.
Deal with it.
And don't be lazy. |

Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
476
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 00:52:17 -
[10] - Quote
Eve is primarily a game of patience and determination. Your automation idea completely guts that from the market, and would rapidly destroy all margins as a consequence. Not supported. |

Daria Meridian Carlile
The Carlile Consortium
51
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 01:02:17 -
[11] - Quote
No.
What you're requesting is basically a more efficient trade bot.
This would also ruin the game for a lot of traders, for example me :p there would be no effort in station trading and current tactics would no longer work, not to mention that you'd just end up with people making multiple orders, in short intervals, insuring that they're always above people with single orders.
|

Unfaithful LittleLamb Stasarik
Furry Footed Felons
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 01:16:04 -
[12] - Quote
EdwardNardella wrote:One consequence of this is that prices would be closer to their actual value which should benefit people who are placing orders with immediate fulfillment.
Why would you request a feature which guarantees you will, in very short order, be making the least possible profit from what you sell? Under your proposal you take a market in which people are either offline or do not check their orders in a timely manner, leading to higher margins due to slower order price changes and turn it into an instant downward spiral that continues 23/7 until the point of no return is met. |

Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2646
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 01:24:37 -
[13] - Quote
Samillian wrote:Alundil wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy. Not empty quoting. Neither am I Works for me. Where do I sign up for your respective newsletters?
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
|

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
6882
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 02:37:03 -
[14] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Samillian wrote:Alundil wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy. Not empty quoting. Neither am I Works for me. Where do I sign up for your respective newsletters? Stop being lazy and make your own! 
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
|

Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2647
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 02:43:09 -
[15] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Stop being lazy and make your own!  What good does reading my own propaganda do me? 
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
|

Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
781
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 02:58:36 -
[16] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Stop being lazy and make your own!  What good does reading my own propaganda do me? 
Eve has a fine tradition of drinking your own groups Kool-Aid.
P.S. Koolaid auto corrects to Nikolai |

EdwardNardella
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 16:43:57 -
[17] - Quote
Fair enough. If you guys injoy beating eachother by .01 ISK over and over who am I to complain. |

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
277
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 17:19:44 -
[18] - Quote
EdwardNardella wrote:Fair enough. If you guys injoy beating eachother by .01 ISK over and over who am I to complain.
Nobody enjoys it but you didn't really think this through did you :D
|

SpaceSaft
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
137
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 17:25:21 -
[19] - Quote
YES DO IT. DO IT NAOW.
I can't wait to see ten bots in jita 0.01 isking each other until the price is below the items mineral value.
11/10
Just two questions: wasn't Burn Jita in summer and didn't it use to involve shooting?
The UI is still bad.
|

Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
848
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 17:34:19 -
[20] - Quote
Esmanpir wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy.  That's not productive feedback...  It wasn't a positive idea. |

Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
849
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 17:35:52 -
[21] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Stop being lazy and make your own!  What good does reading my own propaganda do me?  All of it. |

Hiasa Kite
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
99
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 18:10:48 -
[22] - Quote
EdwardNardella wrote:Fair enough. If you guys injoy beating eachother by .01 ISK over and over who am I to complain. What if I told you that market trading doesn't necessarily revolve around 0.01ing each other?
People to vote for CSM X(in order): Sabriz Adoudel, Steve Ronuken, Manfred Sideous, Mike Azariah, Gorski Car
|

Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 18:27:15 -
[23] - Quote
EdwardNardella wrote:So, anyone who has been around and working the markets long enough is aware of undercutting by .01 ISK.
I see a big problem with this. It is a task that could theoretically be completely automated rather easily. It is my opinion that any task that can be automated easily is probably going to be monotonous and boring. Monotonous and boring tasks are generally not very engaging and make for gameplay that is unapealing. Trading can be fun, being beat by .01 ISK is not, countering that by undercutting the competition by .01 ISK every 5 minutes is also not fun. This is however something can can be difficult to avoid if you want to have fun trading.
There are some things that I am aware of CCP doing to combat this issue. The first is restricting the use of automated tools to perform this task. Second, there is a 5 minute timer between order modifications. Third there is a minimum brokerage fee for order price changes. These things indicate to me that CCP also sees a problem with .01 ISK trading.
I have been thinking about solutions to this issue that are not game breaking. Here is what I have come up with so far, could it work?
Implement a feature similar to automatic bidders on auction sites. The person placing a buy or sell order would input two prices, the start price and the maximum or minimum price (depending on whether or not it is a sell or buy order). If someone else inputs an order with a start price that beats your start price but not your maximum or minimum price then your order will automatically and instantly be adjusted to beat the new order by .01 ISK (provided that their maximum or minimum does not beat yours, should it beat yours then your order will be adjusted to your best price and theirs would be .01 ISK better).
Anyone who does not want to use this feature would have the option of just setting their best price and start price as the same. Also you could have your order not be adjusted to match orders with less than a certain number of units or less than a certain percentage of the number of units that you have on sale.
One consequence of this is that prices would be closer to their actual value which should benefit people who are placing orders with immediate fulfillment.
Another is that time spent participating in .01 ISK trading will be reduced.
What does everyone think?
it would be nearly impossible to have the market running at this rate, since the prices would be constantly updating themselves since now they're automated. while the .01isk game is rather annoying, it is trading pvp. it's the same as having someone warp away from the fight in like 10% structure. Learn to use it. |

voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
326
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 22:36:25 -
[24] - Quote
In addition to what Shakira said which bears upon CPU load and potential deadlocks there is also the issue that, if your objective is to get rid of, or mitigate the effects of 0.01 games by allowing players to place a "stop limit" on say sell orders, this could be gamed quite easily.
E.g. I have several characters that are all trained to Tycoon IV or V and have many order slots not being used. I could place single unit sell orders undercutting to "walk the price down" to find where your stop limit is and then buy out your sell order(s) and flip them up. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14343
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 00:39:36 -
[25] - Quote
Hiasa Kite wrote:EdwardNardella wrote:Fair enough. If you guys injoy beating eachother by .01 ISK over and over who am I to complain. What if I told you that market trading doesn't necessarily revolve around 0.01ing each other?
I would slap you down as a dirty great lair and chastise you about revealing our secrets.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|

Hiasa Kite
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
99
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 00:41:14 -
[26] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hiasa Kite wrote:EdwardNardella wrote:Fair enough. If you guys injoy beating eachother by .01 ISK over and over who am I to complain. What if I told you that market trading doesn't necessarily revolve around 0.01ing each other? I would slap you down as a dirty great lair and chastise you about revealing our secrets. Sorry old Bean! The Illuminati must be preserved. So hailed the Great Spider.
People to vote for CSM X(in order): Sabriz Adoudel, Steve Ronuken, Manfred Sideous, Mike Azariah, Gorski Car
|

Lugh Crow-Slave
322
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 00:44:51 -
[27] - Quote
Esmanpir wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy.  That's not productive feedback...  it's more productive than yours |

EdwardNardella
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 03:09:30 -
[28] - Quote
Quote:people making multiple orders, in short intervals, insuring that they're always above people with single orders Huh? Time limits would have nothing to do with this, calculations would be done instantly.
Quote:Nobody enjoys it but you didn't really think this through did you :D No.
Quote:it would be nearly impossible to have the market running at this rate, since the prices would be constantly updating themselves since now they're automated. Updates would only happen when a new order was submitted. THeoretically this could lead to less server load.
Quote:"walk the price down" You can do this now, also my proposal has ways to mitigate this.
|

w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
91
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:05:35 -
[29] - Quote
This is exploitable and not new idea
Is that my two cents or yours?
|

Mag's
the united
18349
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:13:57 -
[30] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:baltec1 wrote:Don't be lazy. Not empty quoting.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|

EdwardNardella
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
16
|
Posted - 2014.12.25 03:45:15 -
[31] - Quote
How is it exploitable? |

Hiasa Kite
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
99
|
Posted - 2014.12.25 10:53:16 -
[32] - Quote
Why do you feel 0.01ing (other than bots) is a problem? As long as you put in the right price, the 0.01ers go away, leaving you with most if not all of the trade to yourself.
I see them as a challenge to overcome. They act as a deterrent to incompetent traders that might otherwise compete with me. It's very satiafying to start trading an item and watching the roaches scatter before you.
People to vote for CSM X(in order): Sabriz Adoudel, Steve Ronuken, Manfred Sideous, Mike Azariah, Gorski Car
|

epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1453
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 09:36:51 -
[33] - Quote
Ok, lets look at the markets after this change. The margin between buy and sell has disappeared. Prices overall will have inflated until a balance has been achieved.
However, due to the auto bid mechanism, and the inability to block shill bidders, that balance can be distorted at will for almost no cost. Prices can be crashed with a single item bid being repeatedly run.
Result a completely disfunctional market, that can be manipulated into oblivion automatically.
Benefits? None.
Edit, whilst this can be done currently (and to a degree is) the manual delays make it painfully boring to do, and trading bots attempting it woukd be quite visible to CCP (probably)
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
|

EdwardNardella
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
17
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 17:58:02 -
[34] - Quote
I love how people completely ignore the fact that I suggested anti manipulation mechanics. |

Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
826
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 18:34:33 -
[35] - Quote
EdwardNardella wrote:I love how people completely ignore the fact that I suggested anti manipulation mechanics.
Taking a bad idea and then putting an idea within it to make it marginally less bad does not make it good. Swimming in acid is bad. Just because I bring inflatable water wings so I don't drown does not make it a good idea.
It's not just the manipulation part people dislike, every single other post in here is negative or outright mocking of your entire initial idea.
If you want to play the market, pay attention to your orders, or play the long game. If you are .01 isking, there will be times when you cannot update your orders. This is a part of market PvP, and will not be going away. |

Lugh Crow-Slave
351
|
Posted - 2014.12.28 18:37:05 -
[36] - Quote
Hiasa Kite wrote:EdwardNardella wrote:Fair enough. If you guys injoy beating eachother by .01 ISK over and over who am I to complain. What if I told you that market trading doesn't necessarily revolve around 0.01ing each other?
LIES! lies and blasphemy |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |