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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
884
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Posted - 2015.01.06 16:48:07 -
[1] - Quote
I've seen the numerous 'NERF ISHTAR!' threads and don't necessarily agree with them. However they did get me thinking.
How about this.
Drop the bandwidth to 50 Mb, this allows for a full flight of small and mediums and two heavy or sentries. Add gilalike bonus whereby heavies and sentries get a 100% EHP and DPS bonus.
This would cut raw dps output by 20% but in return the ishtar pilot has much better utility from their drone bay. they can carry more ready to use drones or more variety allowing them a better chance of applying racial specific damage.
This would have the bonus effect of reducing server load when heavies or sentries are in use.
Whilst the ishtar pilot gets better utility from the drones they can also lose 50% dps if one is destroyed.
This could be a workable balance if (and only if) the ishtar really was deemed OP. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
648
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Posted - 2015.01.06 16:49:42 -
[2] - Quote
They just need killed with fire at this point. I expect that to happen late 2017.
Serious response: Makes it much harder to clear field with bombs, that's not cool. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1017
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Posted - 2015.01.06 16:51:43 -
[3] - Quote
Its not the Ishtar. Its the drones.
Fix drones (namely sentries) and you fix the Ishtar.
Its not a fluke that there has been nothing but drone based doctrines for over a year. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
790
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Posted - 2015.01.06 16:53:29 -
[4] - Quote
This would work very well.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1074
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Posted - 2015.01.06 18:42:03 -
[5] - Quote
its versatility is its main power .. too go from sniper to brawler in a few seconds is very powerful and unique too drone ships. any attempts too increase its versatility would make it even more powerful .. the bonuses gila has is OP adding it too the ishtar would be absurd.
fixes for the ishtar
- reduce dronebay too 325 - reduce sentry and heavy drone damage bonuses - remove drone HP bonuses
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
651
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Posted - 2015.01.06 18:52:20 -
[6] - Quote
I'm actually a bigger fan of it losing the drone control range bonus and some cpu so it has to trade damage mods for fitting mods if it wants to enjoy today's ranges. Bringing the range up at the expense of DPS is how it should work. |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
258
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Posted - 2015.01.06 18:53:08 -
[7] - Quote
Allow EWAR hitting a ship to affect the drones.
Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected. ECM an Ishtar, result is the drones cannot lock targets. Tracking Disrupt an Ishtar, its drones tracking gets disrupted. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
204
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Posted - 2015.01.06 20:38:06 -
[8] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Allow EWAR hitting a ship to affect the drones.
Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected. ECM an Ishtar, result is the drones cannot lock targets. Tracking Disrupt an Ishtar, its drones tracking gets disrupted. Of course, people will then complain that they have no counter to being jammed out. But... It would be better if sensor dampening modules not only affected the range a ship can target out to, but also the range a ship can deploy it's drones to. Regular ECM still causing aggro is just fine. |
Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
847
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Posted - 2015.01.06 21:35:26 -
[9] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected.. I'm not sure if drones have those. Limiting what drones can attack to what you lock and keep locked is probably what you're trying to achieve, I think. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
884
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Posted - 2015.01.06 22:07:53 -
[10] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected.. I'm not sure if drones have those. Limiting what drones can attack to what you lock and keep locked is probably what you're trying to achieve, I think.
As I understand it drones are the same as any other ship with full stats. eWar works fine on them but you have to target them individually.
In another way this may help to balane out the ishtars power in that only 2 drones out means less to jam. I do however take the point that the super drone idea could mae the ship OP. Another option is to make the bandwidth 75 Mb and the bonuses balanced to make them the same as 4 drones. This spreads the drone strength and makes it less difficult for bombers to clear a mass fleet field.
I'm glad people are providing options for a change :) |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
885
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Posted - 2015.01.06 22:33:03 -
[11] - Quote
As much as I hate the Ishtar I'm not a fan of nerfing drones or its drone capabilities into the ground. Though does seem odd that it has significant tracking bonuses on "battleship" class drones (I don't really see it quite like that) on top of being able to field them in the first place.
I think as much as anything the problem is the other HACs are mostly just so underwhelming - when the Ishtar is doing 4x the dps of a vagabond at any real range right off the bat before any other advantages it tends to kill off people even exploring other options. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4298
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Posted - 2015.01.06 22:36:43 -
[12] - Quote
All I think is needed is a decrease in sentry drone effective tracking. They track better than other battleship sized weapons - the Garde II is a medium range weapons system and has almost the inherent tracking of the short range Neutron Blaster Cannon.
The Ishtar with mobile drones is a powerful but balanced ship.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1074
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Posted - 2015.01.06 22:52:20 -
[13] - Quote
Rroff wrote:As much as I hate the Ishtar I'm not a fan of nerfing drones or its drone capabilities into the ground. Though does seem odd that it has significant tracking bonuses on "battleship" class drones (I don't really see it quite like that) on top of being able to field them in the first place. (I'm ok with it fielding 5x heavy drones but any bonuses should not help it apply damage "out of class" with them).
I think as much as anything the problem is the other HACs are mostly just so underwhelming - for instance when the Ishtar is doing 4x the dps of a vagabond at any real range right off the bat before any other advantages it tends to kill off people even exploring other options.
yes the vagabond needs a stronger brawling focus too help give it a useful role , the cynabal outclasses it in the kiting role amongst the other strong kiting cruisers we have now like Nomen, cerberus, ishtar etc.. rise already gave it the shield boost bonus but needs too go all the way by trading some speed for more HP, fittings and dps.
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
85
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Posted - 2015.01.07 02:54:13 -
[14] - Quote
Nerf this, change that, eliminate something else why all this crap when the answer to the Ishtar "problem" is really extremely easy. So what is this magic change that I speak of, well glad you all asked, eliminate the "aggressive" mode of operation. So what does this change.
First it would limit or eliminate the ability to automatically "assist" another ship meaning that the Ishtar would have to stay in the battle making it easier to deal with it and the drones.
Since the Ishtar pilot would need to have target lock to be able to command drones to attack the Ishtar and it's drones are far more vulnerable to EWAR than they currently are.
There are many others but I think this is enough to give the general idea of the changes to the PvP side of the game. And on the PvE side these changes would have very minimal affect since most drones based PvE pilots probably rarely use the aggressive or assist modes. |
Sirran The Lunatic
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
14
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Posted - 2015.01.07 03:29:16 -
[15] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:....Drop the bandwidth to 50 Mb,....
...Add gilalike bonus....
TLDR: "make the ishtar a gila."
also turn all Nyxs into Exequrors while ccp is at it.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
884
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Posted - 2015.01.07 10:04:32 -
[16] - Quote
Sirran The Lunatic wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:....Drop the bandwidth to 50 Mb,....
...Add gilalike bonus....
TLDR: "make the ishtar a gila." also turn all Nyxs into Exequrors while ccp is at it.
Actually I don't want to make the ishtar a gila. I love the gila but think that it should remain distinct from the ishtar. I was thinking that the same approach could be applied to the ishtar as a different option to the usual 'nerf it' cries (which I don't think is required just to be clear). This would trade some raw dps for increased utility but with fewer drones on the field the ishtar pilot would be at greater risk of having half his/hers/its dps cut by half with each drone that dies.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
652
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Posted - 2015.01.07 11:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yes, but they're MUCH harder to bomb clear (one of the only available mechanisms to currently force a draw) AND unless you shrink the bay as well, they have many more replacements. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14435
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Posted - 2015.01.07 11:22:42 -
[18] - Quote
The ship itself isn't the problem, Its the sentries. If you nerf the ishtar then we will just swap to the domi.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
652
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Posted - 2015.01.07 11:33:51 -
[19] - Quote
Domi has more trade offs against the hull though. I'm far less worried fighting domis than ishtars. Domis take more damage, move slower, have lower control ranges, much harder times separating themselves from the drones so you can easier avoid being pulled into sentry optimal, easier to tackle etc etc.
Very powerful, certainly....but its a BS blob, it will be - and it's not as crazy hard to deal with as the ishtars currently are. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14435
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Posted - 2015.01.07 11:41:02 -
[20] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Domi has more trade offs against the hull though. I'm far less worried fighting domis than ishtars. Domis take more damage, move slower, have lower control ranges, much harder times separating themselves from the drones so you can easier avoid being pulled into sentry optimal, easier to tackle etc etc.
Very powerful, certainly....but its a BS blob, it will be - and it's not as crazy hard to deal with as the ishtars currently are.
Believe me, if ishtars get the boot the next tin of angry beans to be opened will be over the domination of domi fleet. This is before we get onto the sentry carrier swarms. It all stems down to that one drone type, nerfing sentries does a lot more good and is faster than nerfing several hulls.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
655
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Posted - 2015.01.07 11:44:42 -
[21] - Quote
Perhaps, something will always land on top. That's why I've advocated ways that change the ishtar to take the lean off of sentries - keeps them balanced if sentries are nerfed - so things like dropping the control range, trading DPS for control range etc. None of these matter a hoot to a non sentry dependent ishtar or a short range sentry ishtar. So if later sentries are still too cool, then when that's fixed ishtars still work well. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
1011
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
The fact that it can field 3 full sets of BS-sized drones (sentries) is OP. Reduce available bandwidth and you reduce the ability to field so many sentries/heavies at once. Its a HAC. Not a Rattlesnake. At this point, may as well rename them "Komodo"s.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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IceAero
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
40
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:26:29 -
[23] - Quote
Eventually (2018? 2028?), people are going to learn that the Ishtar is not the problem. I'm not even the first person in this thread to say it, but it still needs to be said often...
Sentry drones. Need. Attention.
There's many solutions. Not being able to 'assist' them is interesting. Personally, I think a change to sentry drone control range is needed. Maybe just a change to the base stats, e.g., sentry drone control range is different than drone control range. I don't know what value what be 'balanced', but I seen plenty of reason to separate sentry drones from all other drones in this regard.
_ ice |
VonKolroth
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
49
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Posted - 2015.01.08 00:33:56 -
[24] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Allow EWAR hitting a ship to affect the drones.
Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected. ECM an Ishtar, result is the drones cannot lock targets. Tracking Disrupt an Ishtar, its drones tracking gets disrupted.
I like this idea until I realize drones are one of the few things keeping ECM in check for solo players.
Sent from my Gallente Erabus Titan on -FA- SRP
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VonKolroth
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
50
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Posted - 2015.01.08 01:00:30 -
[25] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:The fact that it can field 3 full sets of BS-sized drones (sentries) is OP. Reduce available bandwidth and you reduce the ability to field so many sentries/heavies at once. Its a HAC. Not a Rattlesnake. At this point, may as well rename them " Komodo"s.
This honestly seems like the most simple and concise way to deal with Ishtar supremacy without making a ton of changes, Give Ishtar enough drone bay to fit one heavy drone damage type and some lights unless it wants to use Geckos, which are expensive and bulky.
Sent from my Gallente Erabus Titan on -FA- SRP
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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
350
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Posted - 2015.01.08 01:00:56 -
[26] - Quote
VonKolroth wrote:Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Allow EWAR hitting a ship to affect the drones.
Sensor Damp an Ishtar, result is Drones Target Range and Scan Resolution get affected. ECM an Ishtar, result is the drones cannot lock targets. Tracking Disrupt an Ishtar, its drones tracking gets disrupted. I like this idea until I realize drones are one of the few things keeping ECM in check for solo players. It is an interesting idea, maybe make it a 20% chance per drone per successful jam/damp etc... 20% being a random number, but the point being that, statistically, you'll remove at least 1 drone per successful EWAR cycle. The upside being that you could remove multiple drones for that cycle. (Or none) Just a thought about that particular idea I do agree that Sentry drones seem to be, if anything, the single biggest issue with Ishtars, Navy Vexors, and the lot. Being able to field a "full rack" of Battleship class weapons is a bit ridiculous, it would be like me fitting a full rack of CMs or Rapid Heavies on my Cerb with the option to assist them to my fleet mates. The correct solution is not something I care to comment on, I don't know enough about the specifics to propose a good one, so I won't. However, it does seem reasonable at first glance to reduce bandwidth to disallow the 5th sentry, or even to disallow sentries below BC's or even BS's. |
VonKolroth
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
50
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Posted - 2015.01.08 01:18:30 -
[27] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:...it does seem reasonable at first glance to reduce bandwidth to disallow the 5th sentry, or even to disallow sentries below BC's or even BS's.
I'm not so sure the problem with sentries resides with the amount of DPS, which taking the 5th sentry would only solve moderately. The primary solution to Ishtars would still be more Ishtars. A lot of it's utility comes from the ability to keep replacing sentries to the field and sentries ability to project damage of any type on the fly. If you shrink the bay, FC's have to commit to a damage type or split damage types across separate Ishtars. Not to mention FC's and linemen need to treat their drones in a much less disposable fashion as if an Ishtar loses it's one and a half sentry drones in a fleet warp, that Ishtar is mostly detoothed for the rest of the fight. This also makes them more susceptible to bomber clearing their drones from the field.
Drone bay nerf also has the benefit of not affecting other playstyles greatly where the Ishtar doesn't really create issues.
Sent from my Gallente Erabus Titan on -FA- SRP
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