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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4831
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Posted - 2016.04.22 18:58:28 -
[6091] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Christopher AET wrote:^^^
This
The cloaked ship ALWAYS gets to choose the engagement. The non cloaked ship does not. And 100% of the time, they choose the solo player who refuses to get on comms and get in a fleet. If people were in defense fleets and on comms 100% of the time, drops wouldn't happen. Hell, I've dropped out of a WH into null, seen a 30 man mining fleet that takes 30 minutes to even notice me in local. I've given up on living in nullsec because every group I tried to join had a fraction of people on voicecomms, and a big chunk never in a fleet. Isn't nullsec supposed to be difficult? Get in a fleet, get friends.
Not to mention if he is choosing...then he is not AFK. The issue here is not AFK cloaking, these people object to cloaks in general. And the entire point of a cloaking ship is a ship that can get behind enemy lines and muck things up.
Sounds like it is working.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
8
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Posted - 2016.04.22 19:00:39 -
[6092] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:And....if you are getting dropped. Nobody is AFK. So, off topic. This is the permanent thread for AFK cloaking, not ATK cloaking.
as a veteran player you should know EVE pvp is 99% about the events that lead up to being yellowboxed. if a game mechanic allows setting up easy, low-risk kills then it should bloody well be part of the discussion
seeing this thread has been open for over a year I'm pretty sure these same arguments have been talked over endlessly.
again, I don't care what CCP does (or if they leave it as it is), but I think we deserve some solid response and not just wild ideas in hidden sections that never get implemented |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
937
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Posted - 2016.04.22 19:28:21 -
[6093] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Isaac Armer wrote:Christopher AET wrote:^^^
This
The cloaked ship ALWAYS gets to choose the engagement. The non cloaked ship does not. And 100% of the time, they choose the solo player who refuses to get on comms and get in a fleet. If people were in defense fleets and on comms 100% of the time, drops wouldn't happen. Hell, I've dropped out of a WH into null, seen a 30 man mining fleet that takes 30 minutes to even notice me in local. I've given up on living in nullsec because every group I tried to join had a fraction of people on voicecomms, and a big chunk never in a fleet. Isn't nullsec supposed to be difficult? Get in a fleet, get friends. Not to mention if he is choosing...then he is not AFK. The issue here is not AFK cloaking, these people object to cloaks in general. And the entire point of a cloaking ship is a ship that can get behind enemy lines and muck things up. Sounds like it is working.
Well I am not objecting to non afk people picking targets, just afk people being invulnerable and requiring nothing like the constant vigilance and constant work of those he aims to hunt. I only want parity of effort. You are clearly and I think deliberately misrepresenting the arguments presented. Perhaps even a small icon appearing on the name to show no input has been made the the client. There we are now all satisfied. If he is not AFK then whats the problem with that?
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
157
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Posted - 2016.04.22 19:36:43 -
[6094] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Not to mention if he is choosing...then he is not AFK. The issue here is not AFK cloaking, these people object to cloaks in general. And the entire point of a cloaking ship is a ship that can get behind enemy lines and muck things up.
Sounds like it is working.
They also completely ignore the other playstyles that nerfs to cloaking would hurt. After being in EVE for a while (still new compared to a lot of you, but not 100% new any more) I found what I enjoy is exploration, and by that I mean actually exploring the universe in addition to simply the hacking mini game. I ran level 4's to build up a decent pile of ISK, and now spend nearly 100% of my time roaming new eden in a covert ops mapping who lives where, what they do, etc. I love gathering intel, and just roaming the universe. I'm not interested in combat really. The big fleet battles, or the idea of holding space didn't draw me to EVE. It was the idea that I could explore and catalog what other players do in this type of game.
Any nerfs to cloaking really, really hurt the #1 thing I love to do in game. People who are anti-cloaking need to realize there are far more playstyles in EVE than simply 'sov null' and 'blop sov null', and realize what their suggestions would do to the rest of the game. |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
938
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Posted - 2016.04.22 20:00:29 -
[6095] - Quote
Most people I know would not want any nerf to cloaky gameplay per-se. Only that by being AFK you render yourself vulnerable to attack.
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
158
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Posted - 2016.04.22 20:12:11 -
[6096] - Quote
Christopher AET wrote:Most people I know would not want any nerf to cloaky gameplay per-se. Only that by being AFK you render yourself vulnerable to attack.
But that's the problem. Currently I'm logged out deep in null, exploring and mapping out an area simply because that's what I like to do. Chances are someone will hellcamp all gates and there won't be any WHs to escape into sooner or later. If I log out, that 30 seconds I'm decloaked means there is a decent chance someone probes down by safe and takes me out. Not everyone has a station or POS to hide in. If I get up to take a ****, I can't dock up first. If I have to take my dog outside, I can't jump into a POS. Decloaking to log off when someone is actively combat probing me down is a death sentence for me. If I couldn't stay cloaked until the heat dies down, explorers like me would have to do a complete 180 from what we do today.
Why does ease of life for a ratter/miner in nullsec trump ease of life for an explorer like myself? |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
938
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Posted - 2016.04.22 20:18:42 -
[6097] - Quote
I think there is a middle ground to be struck. Some structure or ship that renders a cloak ineffective after 15 minutes but ONLY if no avoiding action is taken which can be as simple as warping to another safe, add to that by shortening that 30 second logoff timer to 15 seconds and we have a solution for both parties. If someone can scan you down in a tiny exploration frigate in 15 seconds, I'll eat my hat.
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
8
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Posted - 2016.04.22 20:36:56 -
[6098] - Quote
the change/addition should only affect people who don't move their cloaked ship for over 30 minutes, in a system where a hostile corp has strong presence
from what I read, a mod for citadels that lets you slowly scan down cloaked ships (and requires sov/strategic index to activate) would narrow down the impact to the group above. |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
938
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Posted - 2016.04.22 20:47:42 -
[6099] - Quote
I think that is fair ^^
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4834
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Posted - 2016.04.22 21:01:27 -
[6100] - Quote
I have stated from very early on that AFK cloaking is sub-optimal game play.
But and that is a big but, IMO, that simply nerfing cloaks across the board, which most proposals do and leaving local in place would very likely be worse. Early on I suggested removing local, but giving players to "get it back" by in some way that is vulnerable to attack/spoofing.
Right now the current strategies suck. 99.9% of players seeing a hostile in local dock up when they are in a PvE ship. And the only real way to gimp some people's ability to earn ISK in game is to park an AFK cloaker in the system. There is no middle ground. I want there to be some middle ground.
I hope the proposed changes regarding the observatory array will help in that regard. Remove local, let players get some level of intel back but in a way that is able to be subverted. This way we can get rid of AFK cloaking, yet still keep NS dangerous.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4834
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Posted - 2016.04.22 21:06:01 -
[6101] - Quote
Christopher AET wrote:I think that is fair ^^
Only so long as local is nuked with it.
AFK cloaking was mainly a counter to the instant and infallible intel from local. The only way to muck up the information was to park a guy there for hours on end.
Hell, nuking local kills AFK cloaking in that...what's the point after that? I could sit there all day, but without some way to make my presence known you'll be out mining, ratting, etc.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
159
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Posted - 2016.04.22 21:16:03 -
[6102] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:the change/addition should only affect people who don't move their cloaked ship for over 30 minutes, in a system where a hostile corp has strong presence
from what I read, a mod for citadels that lets you slowly scan down cloaked ships (and requires sov/strategic index to activate) would narrow down the impact to the group above.
I would make it a stand alone deployable that could be knocked out, not simply holding sov, and I would have local go away (or become delayed at the least, similar to what Teckos suggested...) if that deployable structure is knocked offline.
You can scan me down slowly if you're paying attention, and if you aren't I can knock that structure offline and you can't scan me down, and can't 100% trust local until you bring it back online. That seems fairly balanced |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Alternate Allegiance
938
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Posted - 2016.04.22 21:40:49 -
[6103] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Christopher AET wrote:I think that is fair ^^ Only so long as local is nuked with it. AFK cloaking was mainly a counter to the instant and infallible intel from local. The only way to muck up the information was to park a guy there for hours on end. Hell, nuking local kills AFK cloaking in that...what's the point after that? I could sit there all day, but without some way to make my presence known you'll be out mining, ratting, etc.
You would have to nuke cynos with it. It works in wh space because you can control and monitor entrances and exits. A force is limited by the mass. The cyno beacon makes that impossible.
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
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Mark Letuse
Heavy Industries Biotechnic Yelm Experiment DRONE WALKERS
1
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Posted - 2016.04.24 11:52:09 -
[6104] - Quote
Am not against cloaking or covert op but when you have a guy AFK camping you 24/7 for several months this is not generating content, its generating its death.
I will quote myself: "What is the point then to play eve if you not playing game actively, only to be AFK?" |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
162
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Posted - 2016.04.25 20:58:57 -
[6105] - Quote
Mark Letuse wrote:Am not against cloaking or covert op but when you have a guy AFK camping you 24/7 for several months this is not generating content, its generating its death.
I will quote myself: "What is the point then to play eve if you not playing game actively, only to be AFK?"
It can be content though. Rarely do people cloaked in null not get a LOT of hatemail/messages/etc from residents. That is 'content' to them.
If residents would just move one system over, never convo the cloaker and never send a single message, they would stop camping very quickly most of the time. Tear generation is valid content in EVE. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4836
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Posted - 2016.04.25 21:53:24 -
[6106] - Quote
Christopher AET wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Christopher AET wrote:I think that is fair ^^ Only so long as local is nuked with it. AFK cloaking was mainly a counter to the instant and infallible intel from local. The only way to muck up the information was to park a guy there for hours on end. Hell, nuking local kills AFK cloaking in that...what's the point after that? I could sit there all day, but without some way to make my presence known you'll be out mining, ratting, etc. You would have to nuke cynos with it. It works in wh space because you can control and monitor entrances and exits. A force is limited by the mass. The cyno beacon makes that impossible.
The WH guys have said "No, not really," on this one. They point out that unless you are looking pretty much all the time, a new entrance opening up is very much like a cyno.
And I notice you want your cake and to eat it too (i.e. local). AFK camping is only an issue because of local. Local going is, IMO, necessary for making cloaked ships scannable.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4836
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Posted - 2016.04.25 22:13:46 -
[6107] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Mark Letuse wrote:Am not against cloaking or covert op but when you have a guy AFK camping you 24/7 for several months this is not generating content, its generating its death.
I will quote myself: "What is the point then to play eve if you not playing game actively, only to be AFK?" It can be content though. Rarely do people cloaked in null not get a LOT of hatemail/messages/etc from residents. That is 'content' to them. If residents would just move one system over, never convo the cloaker and never send a single message, they would stop camping very quickly most of the time. Tear generation is valid content in EVE.
Agreed. Went to a Finfleet ratting system and set up near a safe POS. Watched the carriers come warping in. Talked to the guys in local for a bit. Then said, "Well, going AFK." And then chortled as I let them wonder if I was or wasn't (and I was...mostly).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
163
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Posted - 2016.04.25 23:03:17 -
[6108] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Agreed. Went to a Finfleet ratting system and set up near a safe POS. Watched the carriers come warping in. Talked to the guys in local for a bit. Then said, "Well, going AFK." And then chortled as I let them wonder if I was or wasn't (and I was...mostly).
I've had this happen to me many, many times. I'm basically a solo explorer 90% of the time. There are days where I'm simply hanging out in a null pocket waiting for the right WH to open so I can move on while playing some other game to pass the time. The messages and convos I get are really, really entertaining. I'm not trying to deny content, I don't even have the skills to light a cyno, and my KB is ****, but apparently I'm still evil for hanging out trying to find the right WH to exit into. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4838
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:08:52 -
[6109] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Agreed. Went to a Finfleet ratting system and set up near a safe POS. Watched the carriers come warping in. Talked to the guys in local for a bit. Then said, "Well, going AFK." And then chortled as I let them wonder if I was or wasn't (and I was...mostly). I've had this happen to me many, many times. I'm basically a solo explorer 90% of the time. There are days where I'm simply hanging out in a null pocket waiting for the right WH to open so I can move on while playing some other game to pass the time. The messages and convos I get are really, really entertaining. I'm not trying to deny content, I don't even have the skills to light a cyno, and my KB is ****, but apparently I'm still evil for hanging out trying to find the right WH to exit into.
I was in a stealth bomber, no back up for dozens of jumps, and didn't even have a cyno fit. But no way they could have known that.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
175
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Posted - 2016.04.26 19:29:55 -
[6110] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I was in a stealth bomber, no back up for dozens of jumps, and didn't even have a cyno fit. But no way they could have known that.
Sure, but you would think a group with several thousand active members could have a few fleets roaming around ready to take me down should I (and whatever group I'm with) do anything |
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Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.27 14:54:45 -
[6111] - Quote
Quote:Sure, but you would think a group with several thousand active members could have a few fleets roaming around ready to take me down should I (and whatever group I'm with) do anything
yes, they'll camp the gates nonstop. they'll drop cans. they do any fking thing they can regardless of your shiptype, fit or killboard. and do you know why that is?
because allowing a cloaked camper into one of your systems completely destroys all daily activities. it's ********. going away for hours or days is not a game mechanic, wearing down people like this is disgusting and needs to be surgically removed |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
175
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Posted - 2016.04.27 15:31:10 -
[6112] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:yes, they'll camp the gates nonstop. they'll drop cans. they do any fking thing they can regardless of your shiptype, fit or killboard. and do you know why that is?
because allowing a cloaked camper into one of your systems completely destroys all daily activities. it's ********. going away for hours or days is not a game mechanic, wearing down people like this is disgusting and needs to be surgically removed
If you have a standing defense fleet (and why would you live in null and not have one?) why would it destroy activities? Just do you PvE-ing in a PvP fit and counter drop whoever attacks you.
Don't live in null if you don't want to defend it. |
Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.27 15:51:17 -
[6113] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Daniel Ornulf wrote:yes, they'll camp the gates nonstop. they'll drop cans. they do any fking thing they can regardless of your shiptype, fit or killboard. and do you know why that is?
because allowing a cloaked camper into one of your systems completely destroys all daily activities. it's ********. going away for hours or days is not a game mechanic, wearing down people like this is disgusting and needs to be surgically removed If you have a standing defense fleet (and why would you live in null and not have one?) why would it destroy activities? Just do you PvE-ing in a PvP fit and counter drop whoever attacks you. Don't live in null if you don't want to defend it.
counterdropping is not viable or we'd see like ten times more blops on killboards.
this isn't about defending a system, you can't bloody well do anything against these people besides theorycrafting skewed scenarios in your head where you own them
honestly getting fed up with people pretending to be ignorant and posting dumb "solutions" to this; as well as with CCP-s solution of dumping feedback in a thread that gets ignored for years.
great job sweeping it under the carpet. |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
176
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Posted - 2016.04.27 17:47:20 -
[6114] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:counterdropping is not viable or we'd see like ten times more blops on killboards.
this isn't about defending a system, you can't bloody well do anything against these people besides theorycrafting skewed scenarios in your head where you own them
honestly getting fed up with people pretending to be ignorant and posting dumb "solutions" to this; as well as with CCP-s solution of dumping feedback in a thread that gets ignored for years.
great job sweeping it under the carpet.
EDIT:
the concept of EVE is to encourage PvP interactions, right? so, cloaking does the opposite and therefore any means to scan them down would provide new engagements, new content, right? why be against it then? if you don't like pvp, don't live in null, right?
I disagree 100%. It is absolutely viable, if people would actually be in fleet and on comms 100% of the time they are in null. Most hotdrops are on that solo pilot who is derping around on his/her own out of fleet and out of comms. A neutral is in system? Do your PvE in groups in PvP fittings. Problem solved. Null is supposed to be difficult, and supposed to be played in groups. You want to solo PvE? Go back to HS.
It's fairly ignorant to say otherwise. |
Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.27 20:20:06 -
[6115] - Quote
that makes sense, all you need is dozens of people coordinated and online 24/7 in the same system as the camper to counter that one guy. this is perfectly doable everywhere and is completely fair and balanced.
I mean it makes sense. after AFK ratting, people now want AFK ganking |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
176
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Posted - 2016.04.27 21:02:34 -
[6116] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:that makes sense, all you need is dozens of people coordinated and online 24/7 in the same system as the camper to counter that one guy. this is perfectly doable everywhere and is completely fair and balanced. I mean it makes sense. after AFK ratting, people now want AFK ganking
You aren't countering one guy, you're countering the fleet you're afraid of him bringing. A fleet of your own is needed to counter a fleet dropping you? The horror!
If he's truly just one guy, you have little to worry about |
Daniel Ornulf
Grae Universe Enterprise EVIAN NATION
9
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Posted - 2016.04.27 21:26:38 -
[6117] - Quote
Quote:If he's truly just one guy, you have little to worry about
jesu- that's the point, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. you don't know if he's afk, or has a cyno, or his friends are afk and it DOESN'T MATTER. you have to assume he's there because if he is and you start ratting, you will lose your ship, that simple.
you know what? let's remove reinforce timers from poses and vulnerability windows too. because if you live in null your should have a standing capital fleet to defend it, or pack up and get the f out.
no, we can't have a standing fleet during the entire day just for the 2 minutes they decide to form a drop without any warning, it doesn't work like that.
why is it that people measure being hardcore by the time they spend sweating their chairs? |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
176
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Posted - 2016.04.28 13:55:57 -
[6118] - Quote
Daniel Ornulf wrote:jesu- that's the point, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. you don't know if he's afk, or has a cyno, or his friends are afk and it DOESN'T MATTER. you have to assume he's there because if he is and you start ratting, you will lose your ship, that simple.
you know what? let's remove reinforce timers from poses and vulnerability windows too. because if you live in null your should have a standing capital fleet to defend it, or pack up and get the f out.
no, we can't have a standing fleet during the entire day just for the 2 minutes they decide to form a drop without any warning, it doesn't work like that.
why is it that people measure being hardcore by the time they spend sweating their chairs?
/sigh. one more time, if he's a cyno, you aren't countering him, you're countering the fleet he would bring.
The fact that you can't have a standing fleet the entire day tells me flat-out you aren't a big enough or organized enough group to live in null. Any person in a null or WH corp who is online and not in a standing fleet and not on comms should be given one warning and then kicked from corp. You want to live in the more dangerous parts of EVE? Take the steps to protect your space. |
Dictateur Imperator
Ab origine fidelis Southern Sitizens
29
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Posted - 2016.04.28 18:37:20 -
[6119] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Daniel Ornulf wrote:jesu- that's the point, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. you don't know if he's afk, or has a cyno, or his friends are afk and it DOESN'T MATTER. you have to assume he's there because if he is and you start ratting, you will lose your ship, that simple.
you know what? let's remove reinforce timers from poses and vulnerability windows too. because if you live in null your should have a standing capital fleet to defend it, or pack up and get the f out.
no, we can't have a standing fleet during the entire day just for the 2 minutes they decide to form a drop without any warning, it doesn't work like that.
why is it that people measure being hardcore by the time they spend sweating their chairs? /sigh. one more time, if he's a cyno, you aren't countering him, you're countering the fleet he would bring. The fact that you can't have a standing fleet the entire day tells me flat-out you aren't a big enough or organized enough group to live in null. Any person in a null or WH corp who is online and not in a standing fleet and not on comms should be given one warning and then kicked from corp. You want to live in the more dangerous parts of EVE? Take the steps to protect your space.
You have no stat about WH life published in real time like 0.0? You can lock all entrence of you're WH by collapse it. Give same info for WH and 0.0 and give ability to go in you're WH for 5 M isk per ship. count how many time wh life will be fun.
Compare thing is good if you compare thing you can compare, if you like WH go in wh, stop want to impose you're gameplay to other. CCP will nerf perma cloack with observatory and it will be good end of discussion :)
More over be perma cloack to make moral harassment is illegal in a lot of country, and some country have a definition of game mechanic... pro hint: Prma cloack for make harassment is maybe not legal in some country due to defintion of game mechanic, and EULA of CCP don't change this. ( i know a country to be part of game mechanic it must be balance and have a VIABLE counter, you don't see problem with perma clocking really?). |
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
178
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Posted - 2016.04.28 20:22:42 -
[6120] - Quote
Dictateur Imperator wrote:You have no stat about WH life published in real time like 0.0? You can lock all entrence of you're WH by collapse it. Give same info for WH and 0.0 and give ability to go in you're WH for 5 M isk per ship. count how many time wh life will be fun.
Compare thing is good if you compare thing you can compare, if you like WH go in wh, stop want to impose you're gameplay to other. CCP will nerf perma cloack with observatory and it will be good end of discussion :)
More over be perma cloack to make moral harassment is illegal in a lot of country, and some country have a definition of game mechanic... pro hint: Prma cloack for make harassment is maybe not legal in some country due to defintion of game mechanic, and EULA of CCP don't change this. ( i know a country to be part of game mechanic it must be balance and have a VIABLE counter, you don't see problem with perma clocking really?).
"harassment"
how many times have you been killed by someone with a cloak active? |
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