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Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
181
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 17:07:45 -
[9631] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Xcom wrote: Local is total absolute intel. A ship probing isn't.
Cept most of the time ship probing is used in combination with local. Go back and read the original suggestion. This particular change would only be applied to w-space where no local exists. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 17:29:47 -
[9632] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote:Xcom wrote: Local is total absolute intel. A ship probing isn't.
Cept most of the time ship probing is used in combination with local. Go back and read the original suggestion. This particular change would only be applied to w-space where no local exists.
Congratulations, you are the first person to complain about AFK cloaking in w-space. Well done.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18877
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 17:32:45 -
[9633] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote:Xcom wrote: Local is total absolute intel. A ship probing isn't.
Cept most of the time ship probing is used in combination with local. Go back and read the original suggestion. This particular change would only be applied to w-space where no local exists.
Still means 100% safety in null for the big boys. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 17:45:17 -
[9634] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote:Xcom wrote: Local is total absolute intel. A ship probing isn't.
Cept most of the time ship probing is used in combination with local. Go back and read the original suggestion. This particular change would only be applied to w-space where no local exists.
What is to stop NS people from using this?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 18:52:23 -
[9635] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Wander Prian wrote:The only reason someone would be cloaked and AFK in wormhole-space is to avoid being detected in directional scanner if you want to keep the element of surprise. AFK-cloaking itself has no use since there is no local. This is also the exalt same reason people use cloacks in w-space. D-sanner is the tool used in w-space. If local is the counter to cloaking the its simply easy to see that without it cloaking should be probable. Cant have the cake and eat it too. It is worth noting that your most likely going to surprise most people. Its only unlike situations that some corp continually scans for new signatures. Its only when you have made your presence known that people most likely will respond. By then the cloak have served its use.
And another false premise.
You are assuming there is only one counter to cloaking: local.
The other counter is to work in groups....which is what most wormholers seem to do based on the discussion in this thread. If you are on comms in the standing fleet, and even working as a group, the threat of a cloaked ship is diminished.
Yes, that cloaked ship might be the advanced scout of a larger group. But even wormholers do not have a problem with that. Why? For them it is content. Wormholers are, to me, an interesting bunch. They are heavy into both PvE and PvP. They have to import a large chunk of the stuff they use, at least initially, and they build up considerable infrastructure when they find a hole to call home (good lord that sounds wrong). So for these guys it would seem that having skill points in both combat and industry would be very beneficial to them.
Notice that in the discussion of cloaks and AFK cloaking there is often the phrase: "some players just want to rat (or mine, or whatever) in peace".
That does not apply to wormholers. They know that they cannot have that where they live. Same goes for most NS sov holders (excluding renters). This is a game about competition and conflict as well as cooperation. Wormholers, above all, else seem to get this. It is a game where adaptability is extremely important, and the issue with the anti-AFK crowd is that they would rather have CCP do something vs. adapt.
Now, if nobody can adapt that is bad and CCP needs to intervene. But wormholers demonstrate that players can adapt to a no local environment and deal with cloaked ships. However, I do not advocate simply removing local because many players would likely stop playing than adapt, so my preferred solution has been remove local from NS (maybe LS) and put in structures so that players can build up an intel network.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1190
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 05:55:18 -
[9636] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Xcom wrote:I get it. According to you the moment of engagement aspect of cloaking is balancing itself out with the lower dps and tank of cloakers. I disagree as there lowered stats isn't a valid enough argument to justify total stealth capability. Total and absolute stealth is in my opinion imbalanced, witch is what we are seeing when people complain. I get that there always will be a group like you who won't agree and that is fine. You don't have too, like all subjects there will always be people of differed opinions.
I just hope CCP gives both sides of the argument a look and balances to a more neutral compromise. Enough have complained about this subject to just sweep it under the carpet. This particular idea have probably been the most neutral of the ones I have seen and the most simple to implement. You don't like total absolute stealth but fine with total absolute intel...... Okay
Total absolute intel would be if local gave you not only all the info you have to go to third party sites to gather (not a balance issue), the intel it actually gets you, but also warpable links to your location.
By comparision local gives very little.
No, the moderate reduction of combat ability on a cov-ops hull does not justify the power of the cloak it can use. There are many weaker ships in the game that do not enjoy any sort of return for that weakness, never mind the sort of unbreakable safety a cloak can provide. Sure it's in a limited (sort of) circumstance, but correctly used there is nothing to be done about a cloaked ship but just tolerate it or leave.
Side Note: He isn't the first to complain about cloaks in wormholes. I've seen plenty of discussion about it, ranging from people complaining that they are nearly required to those complaining of the absolute safety enjoyed by those hiding capitals under them, though I may have missed why this was a bigger deal in a wormhole than anywhere else.
Cloaking mechanics in general are tilted way to far to safety in their use. Doesn't matter where or why you are using it, the fact that it can only be broken by the user making an error or conscious decision is just too much. |
Wander Prian
Art Of Explosions Hole Control
430
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 10:29:01 -
[9637] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote:Xcom wrote:I get it. According to you the moment of engagement aspect of cloaking is balancing itself out with the lower dps and tank of cloakers. I disagree as there lowered stats isn't a valid enough argument to justify total stealth capability. Total and absolute stealth is in my opinion imbalanced, witch is what we are seeing when people complain. I get that there always will be a group like you who won't agree and that is fine. You don't have too, like all subjects there will always be people of differed opinions.
I just hope CCP gives both sides of the argument a look and balances to a more neutral compromise. Enough have complained about this subject to just sweep it under the carpet. This particular idea have probably been the most neutral of the ones I have seen and the most simple to implement. You don't like total absolute stealth but fine with total absolute intel...... Okay Total absolute intel would be if local gave you not only all the info you have to go to third party sites to gather (not a balance issue), the intel it actually gets you, but also warpable links to your location. By comparision local gives very little. No, the moderate reduction of combat ability on a cov-ops hull does not justify the power of the cloak it can use. There are many weaker ships in the game that do not enjoy any sort of return for that weakness, never mind the sort of unbreakable safety a cloak can provide. Sure it's in a limited (sort of) circumstance, but correctly used there is nothing to be done about a cloaked ship but just tolerate it or leave. Side Note: He isn't the first to complain about cloaks in wormholes. I've seen plenty of discussion about it, ranging from people complaining that they are nearly required to those complaining of the absolute safety enjoyed by those hiding capitals under them, though I may have missed why this was a bigger deal in a wormhole than anywhere else. Cloaking mechanics in general are tilted way to far to safety in their use. Doesn't matter where or why you are using it, the fact that it can only be broken by the user making an error or conscious decision is just too much.
You miss the fact that a cloaked ship cannot do anything to you until you can do something to it. The only advantage the cloaked player gets is to choose the moment of engagement. Nothing more.
Wormholer for life.
|
Maria Dragoon
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 11:31:51 -
[9638] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Total absolute intel would be if local gave you not only all the info you have to go to third party sites to gather (not a balance issue), the intel it actually gets you, but also warpable links to your location.
By comparision local gives very little.
No, the moderate reduction of combat ability on a cov-ops hull does not justify the power of the cloak it can use. There are many weaker ships in the game that do not enjoy any sort of return for that weakness, never mind the sort of unbreakable safety a cloak can provide. Sure it's in a limited (sort of) circumstance, but correctly used there is nothing to be done about a cloaked ship but just tolerate it or leave.
Side Note: He isn't the first to complain about cloaks in wormholes. I've seen plenty of discussion about it, ranging from people complaining that they are nearly required to those complaining of the absolute safety enjoyed by those hiding capitals under them, though I may have missed why this was a bigger deal in a wormhole than anywhere else.
Cloaking mechanics in general are tilted way to far to safety in their use. Doesn't matter where or why you are using it, the fact that it can only be broken by the user making an error or conscious decision is just too much.
You are starting to sound like a broken record. Lets present you a theory. If you take a look at nearly all other intel tools, you will find several things about it, first of all, all map info tools are ambiguous, it doesn't tell WHO they are, they just say they are there. Unlike Local intel system which will notify you the instant someone jumps into a system of who they are, their status to your corp set by your corp/alliance.
Map intel tools are also delayed, again, unlike the local intel tool, which notifies you before the attacker can even load grid. Which in turn makes local intel tool the perfect tool for defenders
Also with talks of the observatory array, it highly likely that you can start disrupt the map intel tool (an in turn lie to all the sites that draw from the Map intel API) so the Map intel tools might not even be right anymore once this device is put into place.
Finally the cloaks arn't broken at all. Because they can choose their engagement at the consquences at being extremely heavily nerfed combat wise makes them balance unto itself. Ontop of the fact that local will always let you know he there, so in reality is, he not hidden,
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius
"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 17:42:42 -
[9639] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:
Total absolute intel would be if local gave you not only all the info you have to go to third party sites to gather (not a balance issue), the intel it actually gets you, but also warpable links to your location.
By comparision local gives very little.
No, the moderate reduction of combat ability on a cov-ops hull does not justify the power of the cloak it can use. There are many weaker ships in the game that do not enjoy any sort of return for that weakness, never mind the sort of unbreakable safety a cloak can provide. Sure it's in a limited (sort of) circumstance, but correctly used there is nothing to be done about a cloaked ship but just tolerate it or leave.
Side Note: He isn't the first to complain about cloaks in wormholes. I've seen plenty of discussion about it, ranging from people complaining that they are nearly required to those complaining of the absolute safety enjoyed by those hiding capitals under them, though I may have missed why this was a bigger deal in a wormhole than anywhere else.
Cloaking mechanics in general are tilted way to far to safety in their use. Doesn't matter where or why you are using it, the fact that it can only be broken by the user making an error or conscious decision is just too much.
You are starting to sound like a broken record. Lets present you a theory. If you take a look at nearly all other intel tools, you will find several things about it, first of all, all map info tools are ambiguous, it doesn't tell WHO they are, they just say they are there. Unlike Local intel system which will notify you the instant someone jumps into a system of who they are, their status to your corp set by your corp/alliance. Map intel tools are also delayed, again, unlike the local intel tool, which notifies you before the attacker can even load grid. Which in turn makes local intel tool the perfect tool for defenders Also with talks of the observatory array, it highly likely that you can start disrupt the map intel tool (an in turn lie to all the sites that draw from the Map intel API) so the Map intel tools might not even be right anymore once this device is put into place. Finally the cloaks arn't broken at all. Because they can choose their engagement at the consquences at being extremely heavily nerfed combat wise makes them balance unto itself. Ontop of the fact that local will always let you know he there, so in reality is, he not hidden, he simply unfindable.
Can't tell you how many times I look at dotlan and go check out a system to find that the guy who was ratting there is now gone.
And Mike never has told me why I, who periodically solo hunts in a cloaked ship in NS, must have my game nerfed. Yes, I use the cloak to determine who and when to engage. But there is nothing to stop people from trying to counter that. For example, if other ships warp in and help the guy, I pretty much have to GTFO. But even in a crowded system that almost never happens.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1191
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 21:49:14 -
[9640] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Maria Dragoon wrote:Xcom wrote:I get it. According to you the moment of engagement aspect of cloaking is balancing itself out with the lower dps and tank of cloakers. I disagree as there lowered stats isn't a valid enough argument to justify total stealth capability. Total and absolute stealth is in my opinion imbalanced, witch is what we are seeing when people complain. I get that there always will be a group like you who won't agree and that is fine. You don't have too, like all subjects there will always be people of differed opinions.
I just hope CCP gives both sides of the argument a look and balances to a more neutral compromise. Enough have complained about this subject to just sweep it under the carpet. This particular idea have probably been the most neutral of the ones I have seen and the most simple to implement. You don't like total absolute stealth but fine with total absolute intel...... Okay Total absolute intel would be if local gave you not only all the info you have to go to third party sites to gather (not a balance issue), the intel it actually gets you, but also warpable links to your location. By comparision local gives very little. No, the moderate reduction of combat ability on a cov-ops hull does not justify the power of the cloak it can use. There are many weaker ships in the game that do not enjoy any sort of return for that weakness, never mind the sort of unbreakable safety a cloak can provide. Sure it's in a limited (sort of) circumstance, but correctly used there is nothing to be done about a cloaked ship but just tolerate it or leave. Side Note: He isn't the first to complain about cloaks in wormholes. I've seen plenty of discussion about it, ranging from people complaining that they are nearly required to those complaining of the absolute safety enjoyed by those hiding capitals under them, though I may have missed why this was a bigger deal in a wormhole than anywhere else. Cloaking mechanics in general are tilted way to far to safety in their use. Doesn't matter where or why you are using it, the fact that it can only be broken by the user making an error or conscious decision is just too much. You miss the fact that a cloaked ship cannot do anything to you until you can do something to it. The only advantage the cloaked player gets is to choose the moment of engagement. Nothing more.
This is the argument that lack of ability should somehow mean safety while in space. It does not, obviously. There are many ships that are pretty harmless yet are perfectly viable targets for anyone that decides to shoot it.
That one module should not be that secure under any circumstances. There's a wide gulf between stealth gameplay and what cloaks are currently. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1191
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 22:21:07 -
[9641] - Quote
Maria Dragoon wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:
Total absolute intel would be if local gave you not only all the info you have to go to third party sites to gather (not a balance issue), the intel it actually gets you, but also warpable links to your location.
By comparision local gives very little.
No, the moderate reduction of combat ability on a cov-ops hull does not justify the power of the cloak it can use. There are many weaker ships in the game that do not enjoy any sort of return for that weakness, never mind the sort of unbreakable safety a cloak can provide. Sure it's in a limited (sort of) circumstance, but correctly used there is nothing to be done about a cloaked ship but just tolerate it or leave.
Side Note: He isn't the first to complain about cloaks in wormholes. I've seen plenty of discussion about it, ranging from people complaining that they are nearly required to those complaining of the absolute safety enjoyed by those hiding capitals under them, though I may have missed why this was a bigger deal in a wormhole than anywhere else.
Cloaking mechanics in general are tilted way to far to safety in their use. Doesn't matter where or why you are using it, the fact that it can only be broken by the user making an error or conscious decision is just too much.
You are starting to sound like a broken record. Lets present you a theory. If you take a look at nearly all other intel tools, you will find several things about it, first of all, all map info tools are ambiguous, it doesn't tell WHO they are, they just say they are there. Unlike Local intel system which will notify you the instant someone jumps into a system of who they are, their status to your corp set by your corp/alliance. Map intel tools are also delayed, again, unlike the local intel tool, which notifies you before the attacker can even load grid. Which in turn makes local intel tool the perfect tool for defenders Also with talks of the observatory array, it highly likely that you can start disrupt the map intel tool (an in turn lie to all the sites that draw from the Map intel API) so the Map intel tools might not even be right anymore once this device is put into place. Finally the cloaks arn't broken at all. Because they can choose their engagement at the consquences at being extremely heavily nerfed combat wise makes them balance unto itself. Ontop of the fact that local will always let you know he there, so in reality is, he not hidden, he simply unfindable.
You will notice that Local is somewhat limited as well. You kinda have to be in system to even see it. It obviously doesn't tell you where anyone is, since that's the issue with the people talking about AFK campers. *All* it tells you is who the pilot is, and any available information attached to that ID. It says nothing about the ship they are in, and all other combat information is third party.
I have said repeatedly that the OA isn't going to be the boon that the super risk adverse cloaky folks want to believe. Sure you can take it down, but no one will operate in the ships you want to target without one, and knowing it went down will be about as easy as watching local now. The thing will bring pain all around, giving many people what they asked for and pretty much no one what they wanted.
If you don't understand that cloaks are broken as they are, then you really can't see past your own toes. It's broken incredibly in your favor, so it's fine.
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1150
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 23:05:45 -
[9642] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:You will notice that Local is somewhat limited as well. You kinda have to be in system to even see it. It obviously doesn't tell you where anyone is, since that's the issue with the people talking about AFK campers. *All* it tells you is who the pilot is, and any available information attached to that ID. It says nothing about the ship they are in, and all other combat information is third party.
I have said repeatedly that the OA isn't going to be the boon that the super risk adverse cloaky folks want to believe. Sure you can take it down, but no one will operate in the ships you want to target without one, and knowing it went down will be about as easy as watching local now. The thing will bring pain all around, giving many people what they asked for and pretty much no one what they wanted.
If you don't understand that cloaks are broken as they are, then you really can't see past your own toes. It's broken incredibly in your favor, so it's fine.
How is someone not in system with you a threat? Why is that relevant? Local lets PvE-ers get away 100% of the time. Talk about broken mechanics. Local is broken incredibly in PvE-ers favor, so it's fine, right? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1191
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 01:58:36 -
[9643] - Quote
No, the point is that Local isn't some omniscient all inclusive intel. Others were talking about map features that gave information for things not in system with you.
However, hypothetically it would be useful for finding the staging area of hotdrops (currently done with scouts), and monitoring traffic (usually done with alts), and no doubt a few hundred other useful things that could benefit from higher precision intel than is currently allowed by the "perfect intel tool" |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 02:37:33 -
[9644] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
This is the argument that lack of ability should somehow mean safety while in space. It does not, obviously. There are many ships that are pretty harmless yet are perfectly viable targets for anyone that decides to shoot it.
That one module should not be that secure under any circumstances. There's a wide gulf between stealth gameplay and what cloaks are currently.
Yes, but they are having a direct effect on the game. Moving you from point A to point B or moving you and lots of stuff from point A to point B. A guy sitting at a safe with a cloak running and AFK is having minimal to no impact on the game.
And this "wide gulf" is a load of nonsense in that is is one specific context, cloaked at a safe spot doing nothing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 03:02:32 -
[9645] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You will notice that Local is somewhat limited as well. You kinda have to be in system to even see it.
What? Of course, and there is a local in every system.
Quote:It obviously doesn't tell you where anyone is, since that's the issue with the people talking about AFK campers. *All* it tells you is who the pilot is, and any available information attached to that ID. It says nothing about the ship they are in, and all other combat information is third party.
Thank God. You already get enough with local. Only a complete carebear would be crying local is so "limited".
Quote:I have said repeatedly that the OA isn't going to be the boon that the super risk adverse cloaky folks want to believe. Sure you can take it down, but no one will operate in the ships you want to target without one, and knowing it went down will be about as easy as watching local now. The thing will bring pain all around, giving many people what they asked for and pretty much no one what they wanted.
No kidding dunderhead. Nobody has claimed otherwise. What we have noted is that either you defend that structure or you let yourself be blinded and then you'll have to do something to rectify that which will invariably mean putting ships at risk.
And for people like you it will mean that players like me can come in and wipe out your entire intel infrastructure because players like you won't do anything to stop me. You'll either have to rely on your landlords or lose your space...which you should. I look forward to seeing your rage posts in this forum about how awful it is that somebody shows up and keeps taking down our OA then camping it and killing you. How I'm just griefing you and I'm a hurting the game.
Quote:If you don't understand that cloaks are broken as they are, then you really can't see past your own toes. It's broken incredibly in your favor, so it's fine.
Yeah, sure. You keep saying this and yet you can't seem to marshal a cogent and argument as to why. The best you got is "At a secret safe spot they are invulnerable." Everyone looks at that and goes, "Meh, yeah and?"
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 03:05:52 -
[9646] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote: You will notice that Local is somewhat limited as well. You kinda have to be in system to even see it. It obviously doesn't tell you where anyone is, since that's the issue with the people talking about AFK campers. *All* it tells you is who the pilot is, and any available information attached to that ID. It says nothing about the ship they are in, and all other combat information is third party.
Oh, well in that case then local is totally fine. I mean it doesn't give you anything other than advance warning has just entered system time to get out. Since it doesn't tell you anything else like what ship he is in and his marital status and credit score...why yeah, you are right it is totally not OP.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6415
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 03:12:02 -
[9647] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:No, the point is that Local isn't some omniscient all inclusive intel. Others were talking about map features that gave information for things not in system with you.
However, hypothetically it would be useful for finding the staging area of hotdrops (currently done with scouts), and monitoring traffic (usually done with alts), and no doubt a few hundred other useful things that could benefit from higher precision intel than is currently allowed by the "perfect intel tool"
Nobody has said local is omniscient. Why is when people confront a fact or argument they don't like they have to run to the idiotic extreme that nobody even claimed?
Local will give you advanced warning. It is never wrong. You have to do nothing to get it. And it cannot be in anyway be removed, interfered with, or cause a problem for the person who is ratting except via a cloaked ship scaring the bajeebers out of the ratter.
Compare this to the cloak:
At a secret safe you are almost surely going to be invulnerable.
But hey, lets nerf cloaks and leave local alone. Yeah, that's balanced.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
336
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 04:28:46 -
[9648] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:There are many ships that are pretty harmless yet are perfectly viable targets for anyone that decides to shoot it.
Which would mean something if the deciding factor was "harmless" instead of "not accomplishing anything". A mining barge is "harmless" but still generating ISK for its owner by actively mining. An AFK cloaked ship is "harmless" but is just sitting there doing nothing.
Quote:There's a wide gulf between stealth gameplay and what cloaks are currently.
Oh FFS, not this again. Complex stealth gameplay is not possible in EVE because the core mechanics do not support the things that are required for it. Detection/target locking is binary, line of sight/concealment/etc do not exist at all, etc. There is no middle ground where a ship is hard to detect and engage effectively but not invisible, and any attempts to add on a mechanic for it are inevitably an awkward mess. They either add tedious extra clicking and modules to fit without making any meaningful difference, or become an instant-win "remove cloaked ship" button that effectively removes cloaking from the game. |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
181
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 10:03:21 -
[9649] - Quote
By the analogy of cloak ships not being able to do anything, therefore they have the right to be exempt from combat is the same as stating that shuttles should be invulnerable. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6416
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 10:04:32 -
[9650] - Quote
Xcom wrote:By the analogy of cloak ships not being able to do anything, therefore they have the right to be exempt from combat is the same as stating that shuttles should be invulnerable.
Maybe a shuttle at a secret safe spot....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
339
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 10:11:51 -
[9651] - Quote
Xcom wrote:By the analogy of cloak ships not being able to do anything, therefore they have the right to be exempt from combat is the same as stating that shuttles should be invulnerable.
Shocking news: an expensive combat ship has more powerful abilities than a dirt cheap ship whose sole purpose is to be a disposable one-way shield for your pod while you're moving between real ships. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6416
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 10:19:01 -
[9652] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Xcom wrote:By the analogy of cloak ships not being able to do anything, therefore they have the right to be exempt from combat is the same as stating that shuttles should be invulnerable. Shocking news: an expensive combat ship has more powerful abilities than a dirt cheap ship whose sole purpose is to be a disposable one-way shield for your pod while you're moving between real ships.
There is that too. A highly specialized ship with an advanced electronics suite (can fit a cov ops cloak and cov ops cyno, and may have ewar bonuses, or is specialized in carrying over sized weaponry (stealth bombers)...is more useful than a shuttle. My God WITF are those pesky Devs thinking?!?!?! Somebody call the New York Times I am sure they'll want to cover this.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Marika Sunji
Dark-Rising Wrecking Machine.
11
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 13:42:25 -
[9653] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Xcom wrote:By the analogy of cloak ships not being able to do anything, therefore they have the right to be exempt from combat is the same as stating that shuttles should be invulnerable. Shocking news: an expensive combat ship has more powerful abilities than a dirt cheap ship whose sole purpose is to be a disposable one-way shield for your pod while you're moving between real ships.
Technically it adds +2AU/s warp speed too, you know. |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
181
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 18:50:06 -
[9654] - Quote
Marika Sunji wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:Xcom wrote:By the analogy of cloak ships not being able to do anything, therefore they have the right to be exempt from combat is the same as stating that shuttles should be invulnerable. Shocking news: an expensive combat ship has more powerful abilities than a dirt cheap ship whose sole purpose is to be a disposable one-way shield for your pod while you're moving between real ships. Technically it adds +2AU/s warp speed too, you know. It also gives you 10m3 of cargo hold.
We need to make the shuttle invulnerable to bring them in line with the same cloaking balance. Lack of ability's a ship has is obviously equivalent to buffed defences. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6416
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 19:36:32 -
[9655] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Marika Sunji wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:Xcom wrote:By the analogy of cloak ships not being able to do anything, therefore they have the right to be exempt from combat is the same as stating that shuttles should be invulnerable. Shocking news: an expensive combat ship has more powerful abilities than a dirt cheap ship whose sole purpose is to be a disposable one-way shield for your pod while you're moving between real ships. Technically it adds +2AU/s warp speed too, you know. It also gives you 10m3 of cargo hold. We need to make the shuttle invulnerable to bring them in line with the same cloaking balance. Lack of ability's a ship has is obviously equivalent to buffed defences.
You keep ignoring that a cloaked ship is only "invulnerable" when it is doing nothing. If you want a shuttle to be invulnerable, fine only when it is doing nothing, and that includes moving a pilot from point A to point B.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1191
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 01:43:38 -
[9656] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:There are many ships that are pretty harmless yet are perfectly viable targets for anyone that decides to shoot it. Which would mean something if the deciding factor was "harmless" instead of "not accomplishing anything". A mining barge is "harmless" but still generating ISK for its owner by actively mining. An AFK cloaked ship is "harmless" but is just sitting there doing nothing. Quote:There's a wide gulf between stealth gameplay and what cloaks are currently. Oh FFS, not this again. Complex stealth gameplay is not possible in EVE because the core mechanics do not support the things that are required for it. Detection/target locking is binary, line of sight/concealment/etc do not exist at all, etc. There is no middle ground where a ship is hard to detect and engage effectively but not invisible, and any attempts to add on a mechanic for it are inevitably an awkward mess. They either add tedious extra clicking and modules to fit without making any meaningful difference, or become an instant-win "remove cloaked ship" button that effectively removes cloaking from the game.
OK... so it's not the ability of the ship that is your issue, but what the pilot chooses to do with it. Thus anyone who shuts off their modules should be exempt. Got it. Any ship that stops moving with no modules activated should be perfectly safe in Merin-World. Seriously, all of these paper soldiers were debunked long ago.
Complex stealth gameplay is a development cycle away, if they chose to do it. Just because you don't like the idea of actually having to put out effort to stay safe while hunting others doesn't mean it can't or should not be done. If they are just going to leave it an overpowered mess totally in favor on one side, then they should just scrap it all together and balance things properly if Null is too profitable.
However, making cloaked ships actually watch their environment and put out some effort staying safe does not 'remove them from the game'. That's the hyberbolic whine of someone who can't stand the thought of risking anything in an unknown circumstance. You are fine sacrificing a ship if you plan on it in the first place, you just don't like the idea that you might have a chance to fail in a way you didn't choose. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
347
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 03:12:14 -
[9657] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:OK... so it's not the ability of the ship that is your issue, but what the pilot chooses to do with it. Thus anyone who shuts off their modules should be exempt. Got it. Any ship that stops moving with no modules activated should be perfectly safe in Merin-World. Seriously, all of these paper soldiers were debunked long ago.
Oh FFS, if "WHAT IF PEOPLE UNDOCK SHIPS WITH NO MODULES FITTED JUST TO SEE IF THEY CAN DIE" is the best argument you have then you're really a pathetic troll. Stop wasting time with unrealistic scenarios involving stupid players, they have nothing to do with the real game.
Quote:Complex stealth gameplay is a development cycle away, if they chose to do it. Just because you don't like the idea of actually having to put out effort to stay safe while hunting others doesn't mean it can't or should not be done. If they are just going to leave it an overpowered mess totally in favor on one side, then they should just scrap it all together and balance things properly if Null is too profitable.
Not only are you a troll, you're an illiterate troll. Complex stealth gameplay is not "a development cycle away" because it would require massive changes to core mechanics. For example, how do you do line of sight in a game engine that has no concept of line of sight, and where the developers have explicitly stated that line of sight calculations are impossible for server load reasons? It's very hard to have complex stealth gameplay when your game engine can't even support things like "can I see this person, or are they behind the obstacle".
Quote:However, making cloaked ships actually watch their environment and put out some effort staying safe does not 'remove them from the game'.
Only if you go to the other end of the scale, where cloaked ships have to watch their environment but it's trivially easy to escape the counter. Forcing cloaked ships to warp between safespots while still remaining 100% immune to attack unless the player screws up is not an improvement in gameplay, it just adds more buttons to click.
Now, it does have an effect on AFK cloaked ships that can't move to new safespots, but we've already established that the only people who suffer from AFK cloaking are pathetic failures that need to be evicted from EVE anyway.
Quote:You are fine sacrificing a ship if you plan on it in the first place, you just don't like the idea that you might have a chance to fail in a way you didn't choose.
No, you're just a troll who likes building straw men. I'm fine with losing ships in a way I didn't choose. In fact it happens to me pretty frequently. I attack a bait ship, I get caught on a gate, etc. The issue here is not the possibility of losing a ship (which cloaked ships face if they ever want to engage and accomplish anything), it's the fact that you want to effectively remove stealth gameplay from EVE based on idiotic "I MUST BE ABLE TO KILL EVERYTHING" principles. |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
181
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 07:47:38 -
[9658] - Quote
Eve doesn't have stealth game play. Nothing about cloaking is a game then getting into cloaked state. If you don't want this type of game play to be ruined then you better come up with a damn good argument why you shouldn't be able to get killed when you are in cloaked state. Pre nerfed combat capability isn't a valid enough argument. Nothing in eve have been balanced around reduced capability because of cloaking. The reduced dps and tank is easily circumnavigated with workarounds.
There is no stealth game play in eve. Its a single module you turn on and if your not bumped within 1min your basically invulnerable. That is a joke if anyone calls it stealth gameplay. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6416
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 08:09:12 -
[9659] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
OK... so it's not the ability of the ship that is your issue, but what the pilot chooses to do with it.
Yes, if you choose the interact with the environment then the environment can respond.
Quote:Thus anyone who shuts off their modules should be exempt. Got it. Any ship that stops moving with no modules activated should be perfectly safe in Merin-World. Seriously, all of these paper soldiers were debunked long ago.
And put that ore he just mined back. Then yes, what you are saying is not completely unreasonable. Oh...wait, we can't put the ore back into the asteroid. And even if it is jettisoned and destroyed it is still having an effect.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6416
|
Posted - 2017.04.24 08:11:08 -
[9660] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Eve doesn't have stealth game play. Nothing about cloaking is a game then getting into cloaked state. If you don't want this type of game play to be ruined then you better come up with a damn good argument why you shouldn't be able to get killed when you are in cloaked state. Pre nerfed combat capability isn't a valid enough argument. Nothing in eve have been balanced around reduced capability because of cloaking. The reduced dps and tank is easily circumnavigated with workarounds.
There is no stealth game play in eve. Its a single module you turn on and if your not bumped within 1min your basically invulnerable. That is a joke if anyone calls it stealth gameplay.
You shouldn't be killed in a cloaked state because you are cloaked.
Cloaks are designed to make it so you cannot be found. That is it. And even then in many contexts you can be decloaked and killed. About the only time to be really truly safe you have to be at a safe and cloaked.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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