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Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.18 12:45:00 -
[1]
Since EVE is a PvP game, I think the newer players should get used to what PvP combat is from running missions or hunting belts.
Unfortunately, a whole top 0.0 triple BS spawn deals less damage than a single player HAC and missions are lag machines where truckloads of pathetic ships are thrown at you, giving a false sense of 'look, I'm nber!'.
I was milking my cash cow yesterday (lvl 4 Gursitas Extravaganza in 0.0), tanking 1 and often 2 pockets at the same time with a single small Gistii shield booster (on a Raven!), thinking to myself 'why did they design missions with so many ships and so little challenge?' Mission runners complain that system where they make money are lagtastic and when you enter that Pirate Invasion lvl 4 missions, you are facing 2 pockets of Blood Raiders each consisting of 1 BS, 10 cruisers and 15 frigates! Un-necessary strain on the servers because of the lag generating design, very low experience gain about what actual combat is like.
What about NPC spawns that change ammo or have the true firepower for their ships? They already have maxed skills but when you face the most difficult NPC a Caldari will ever see, Rachen Mysuna, he fires a single torpedo each cycle, his guns (negligible dps for large rails on a Raven, forget it) and... 3 defenders! (major pain in the ass for cruise fitted ravens like mine).
I would like to see NPC spawns that have quality over quantity. It would be more challenging at would help players at gaining true combat experience instead of turkey shooting.
What's your opinion?
____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships |
WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.18 12:51:00 -
[2]
I'm going to have to agree.
Beef up the npcs to the point they closer to the player ships and decrease the number of spawns. Right now it's almost silly, you single handely blow throught entire fleets. "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." |
Rick Dentill
Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.18 12:55:00 -
[3]
Npc ships give bounties and therefore are profitable and as you say pretty easy to tank. I think many people end up being caught into the "lets make isk" trap. I know I have been! I have yet to see a real solution to this problem, we need to get people into PVP as early as possible. Too much PVE tends to discourage PVP.
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http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
spRAYed
Pre-nerfed Tactics Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.09.18 12:57:00 -
[4]
Do the same with (Mission/Complex) NPC's as what u did with Drones. Saves u a lot of lag. Increase Dmg for each, decrease amount. It worked with drones. Y not with NPC's.
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pArlT? Ur watching too many movies dude... ^Sig by Liu Mang |
Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.18 13:05:00 -
[5]
Isn't this because the AI runs on the same node as the solar system and hence has to be really small as a result. If the AI was smarter then the ships could act as a trainer. Maybe this could be done by having Mission AI run on a seperate server and really be smart, how about using fuzzy logic for example.
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.18 13:07:00 -
[6]
Make PvP worth it, and more people will do it.
I think that for each aggressive kill made in PvP, Concord should levy a bounty on said aggressor. This bounty should be unclaimable by corp members and same account alts.
This way, there is an incentive to get out there and hunt/kill pirates. Why go PvPing when the financial returns are often negligable relative to the risk.
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Ather Ialeas
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.09.18 13:09:00 -
[7]
I believe that CCP's goal with the current missions is that they wouldn't be so predictable because there's actually multiple sources for damage instead of just a handful. As you just pointed out, it just doesn't work. I've been flying around in a Ferox with my alt and I currently just activate one Invul.field in every single lvl3 because I know what the rats are going to throw at me.
And what do they do throw at me? Damage and web, scram very rarely. 15 webbing frigates of course looks "intense" but when I'm actually supposed to take them down I find out that it's just boring waste of time to do that. For example a good anticlimatic way to finish a mission is Angel Extravaganza lvl3 in which the hardest enemies to kill are two Spider Drones if you're not equipped properly. And what do they do? Web you and spit out 1dps EM.
I mean come on, CCP. Mission design isn't really that hard, after all they're supposed to be storyline missions telling the players about the background events of EVE, not just some random grind caves. COSMOS is a step to right direction but it's still not there.
So what could you do to change this? Well, I'm going to design a mission right now, in this very post. I'll name it "Ather's big mouth" and as such it's a mission which is guided to everyone who wants to shoot Amarr Navy ships. Mission briefing could be something along the lines of "Amarr Navy captured my little sister and made an exotic dancer out of her and now she's dead, avenge this! PS. Khanid Innovations may be involved". You hop onto your ship of choice (lets say Dominix) and get moving.
Okay so a waypoint is given to where this bunch of Amarr Navy scum hangs around and it's in some deadspace pocket where there's a brothel/bar/whatever. You warp in and notice among other ships (3-5 "neutral" ships, traders) that the hub located x km away is currently having 2 Apocalypses docked onto it and five cruisers and three frigates. The frigates aggro you on sight.
Instead of doing anything else, you just think that you should go and blow up the frigates which are now speeding at you at 3km/s. While the frigs are moving in and you're deploying your countermeasures for them (drones most likely), you also notice that the cruisers are starting to turn and are now slowly coming at you too but they're not aggroing yet so no yellow/red blinky blinky for that. You quickly pop one of the frigates and then your entire ship shuts down as the other two get close enough and lay down +3 scram, double webbers and a lucky cycle from multispectral ECM. Now you obviously can't see it but the cruisers suddenly aggro you and start laying waste on you. Two of the cruisers are Amarr Navy Augorors (Maller with 105% effectivity essentially) and the three others are Omens. As the ECM cycle breaks, you decide to kill the cruisers which are now the imminent threat and wipe them out in a lengthy firefight. You lose some of your drones but nothing too major.
After you've killed all the cruisers while barely sustaining their damage output you notice that the two Amarr Navy battleships have now undocked and are turning sideways on you. As you start killing off the last frigates you get aggro from both battleships and just as you're about to pop the last warp scrambling frigate you get hit simultaneously by two battleships and because the cruisers already kicked a dent into your tank, you get wtfbbq'd by lasers taking 2/3 of hull damage until you manage to warp out.
So the mission is a failure, almost. Since you're a normal w00tlooter, you did loot everything you could while fighting meaning that while you didn't manage to finish the mission and collect the bounty, you got several Amarr Navy frequency crystals and also an Amarr Navy medium armor repairer. If you would've stayed there, eventually Khanid ships would've warped in and fried you and your friends in an instant so the goal of the mission wouldn't been winning but just making a stance.
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Kye Kenshin
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.18 13:45:00 -
[8]
I totally agree.
The amount of npcs in missions needs to be cut down dramaticly.
Missions should be more like soloing in pvp, you should only take on very small groups of powerful ships. So if your mission is to kill 2 cruisers the cruisers will be like two player cruisers and actually do more then 10dps giving you an actual fight instead of mindless waves of ships to kill.
It would make more sense RP wise having small roaming groups of npcs to kill instead of whole fleets sitting in an Empires space. Obviously bounties would have to be increased to compensate but I think it could work.
www.beaglecorp.com | Join "BEAGLEPUBLIC" channel ingame. |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.18 13:49:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 18/09/2006 13:51:50 The belt rats in 0.0 are there to fund 0.0 activities like pvp. If you buff the npcs and reduce the number of rats/spawns, you have to go up with the bounties. The sole purpose of ratting in 0.0 is to make isk for pvp, building up infrastructure etc.
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Trahern Twrgadarn
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Posted - 2006.09.18 13:52:00 -
[10]
PVP is NOT obligotary in eve, everyone, strange as it may seem is entitled to their play style.
PVP is also borked, it seems to come down to numbers, blobs and ststion/gate hugging or sniping.
I have been in a few wars and have decided of late not to bother getting involved as it's all about getting out alive, whether it be logout tactics, gate/station camping.
At the moment PVE has a large risk vs reward aspect to it (i'm sure many people will understand things more when put in perspective with that popular chant) as not only do you now have harder missions, but you also have lag, borked drones which can get you killed swiftly.
NPC's don't station/gate hug, logoff and don't smack.
As limited or lacking as the AI is in eve, I prefer it over playing other players. At least they have the dignity to stay and fight
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evistin
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.18 13:55:00 -
[11]
Rasing the AI on NPCs I would like, PVP or otherwise. But there is a problem. AI programs will eat up a lot of CPU cycles, and increase load across the server. Its a balancing act. -----------
Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide |
Valkazm
Amarr Cursed Spawn Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.09.18 14:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Trahern Twrgadarn PVP is NOT obligotary in eve, everyone, strange as it may seem is entitled to their play style.
PVP is also borked, it seems to come down to numbers, blobs and ststion/gate hugging or sniping.
I have been in a few wars and have decided of late not to bother getting involved as it's all about getting out alive, whether it be logout tactics, gate/station camping.
At the moment PVE has a large risk vs reward aspect to it (i'm sure many people will understand things more when put in perspective with that popular chant) as not only do you now have harder missions, but you also have lag, borked drones which can get you killed swiftly.
NPC's don't station/gate hug, logoff and don't smack.
As limited or lacking as the AI is in eve, I prefer it over playing other players. At least they have the dignity to stay and fight
hehe npcs should smack
Cursed Spawn recruitment |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.18 14:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Valkazm hehe npcs should smack
On some storyline missions they do. The npc invites you to a convo and gives you true smack. You can even invite him to your gang and the abuse still give you smack in gang.
It is a shame that these missions are not more common! --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
SengH
Black Omega Security E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.09.18 14:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Plutoinum Edited by: Plutoinum on 18/09/2006 13:51:50 The belt rats in 0.0 are there to fund 0.0 activities like pvp. If you buff the npcs and reduce the number of rats/spawns, you have to go up with the bounties. The sole purpose of ratting in 0.0 is to make isk for pvp, building up infrastructure etc.
umm CCP made NPCING alot easier with the cold war patch. They removed mwding scramming/webbing intys from belts for the most part and BSes became alot easier due to them having "EW" now. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus BS5 finished..... |
D2O HeavyWater
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.18 14:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Valkazm hehe npcs should smack
On some storyline missions they do. The npc invites you to a convo and gives you true smack. You can even invite him to your gang and the abuse still give you smack in gang.
It is a shame that these missions are not more common!
Ive been running missions for a couple of years now and I have never seen this???
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SunTzuRaven
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.09.18 14:51:00 -
[16]
Agreed. If you watch NPC's now as well, they don't fire all of their weapons. Npc battleships can only seem to fire one turret/missile at a time, adding to the sense of npcs being utterly pathetic. Fewer ships that act more like ships and less like nuetered walruses would make things far more exciting and realistic. Imagining armor reppers slowly failing to the combined fire of 2 npc battlecruisers (omg, so few!!!!) is better then slowly failing but very slowly against 3 battleships 8 battlecruisers, several cruisers, interceptors and frigates.
Also every mission you run the npcs are just orbiting some object that you can't see without a microscope, and if you left them there they would orbit for hours on end. Some npcs are even programmed apparently not to aggro, even if you are 20km from one group, firing at a group 50km away, sometimes the 20km group just sits there while you blow up all of their friends.
A much more realistic system would be to have docked/deactivated ships that activate when sentries are attacked/detect an enemy. Perhaps they are on a timer? Some graphic effect goes off on the dock (flashing red lights!) when you initiate an attack, notifying you that you are on a timer till that raven gathers its crew and undocks. On the several missions where npc ships do spawn, they do it literally <pop!> and there is a fleet. Why don't they warp in? Seeing them come from somewhere doesn't utterly destroy suspension of disbelief like spawning does.
Even making npcs <seem> like they are more intelligent without actually doing much more server side work would be much prefered. Also, if calculations are to costly to make npcs this smart, why do you do dumb calculations for the enemy planetary blockade sized fleets in missions when you could have a couple smart enemies that make it much more realistic and entertaining. And help to train people for pvp? ________________________________________ <("<) <('')> (>")>
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sorja
I was milking my cash cow yesterday (lvl 4 Gursitas Extravaganza in 0.0), tanking 1 and often 2 pockets at the same time with a single small Gistii shield booster (on a Raven!
Statement :
-You are either a liar -0.0 lv4 are too easy
Take a pick.
Recruitment |
Zimi Vlasic
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: Sorja
I was milking my cash cow yesterday (lvl 4 Gursitas Extravaganza in 0.0), tanking 1 and often 2 pockets at the same time with a single small Gistii shield booster (on a Raven!
Statement :
-You are either a liar -0.0 lv4 are too easy
Take a pick.
I'm pretty sure he's complaining that 0.0 lvl4 are too easy.
Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer |
Malena Panic
Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:34:00 -
[19]
Since missions are 100% consentual, if they are too hard people won't do them. Personally, I love PvP but I find missions fun as well; it's just a different kind of fun.
I don't think it's possible to create missions that will prepare players for PvP. Other players are just too crafty and risk averse. Maybe a mission generator that generates mission opposition on the ship you undock in, so that if you warp to deadspace in a BS you get multiple MWDing interceptors scrambling you at 15km while a couple of battleships snipe you from 200km away. ;)
One way to simulate the uncertainty of PvP in mission running is to do them in a generic tank rather than tanking against rat type. I have a funny feeling that a lot of these 'easy' missions would suddenly become very very hard to solo!
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:38:00 -
[20]
If you made NPCing on par with PvP you'd make it almost impossibly dangerous, unfortunately. If you look at the odds of survival for a fair PvP fight, give NPCing those same odds and then run the scenario four times an hour you're going to end up with a lot of dead, and probably quite frustrated, people. For one thing, PvE will never give you the buzz of PvP even if it's similar quantitatively because you're not fighting real people, and for another making the risk/reward equation work with vastly stronger NPCs will require you to up the payouts by orders of magnitude, at which point you almost certainly open the door to seriously exploitative farming.
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MissileRus
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rick Dentill Npc ships give bounties and therefore are profitable and as you say pretty easy to tank. I think many people end up being caught into the "lets make isk" trap. I know I have been! I have yet to see a real solution to this problem, we need to get people into PVP as early as possible. Too much PVE tends to discourage PVP.
QFT! lets make missions in empire alot more profitable, i think more people would pvp if they could afford too. grinding lvl 3 missions because lvl 4s are way to hard takes to long. faster isk = more pvp. atm only ones getting insane isk are 0.0 ratters, mission grinders seem to be happy to grind away for no isk at all. i dont get it realy.. perhaps they need a battleship and 300mill to replace it when trying to move out to 0.0 ? isk is not in empire its in 0.0. hopefully kali will fix that by reducing empire space but.. seriously.. something needs to be done to make people want to go to 0.0. profits dont make it, people farm away for nothing =/ team play doesnt work, squares and blobbs and camps. unless empire is reduced to bare minimum people wont go to 0.0 willingly, and because their doing missions in empire they cant afford to. perhaps it has to do with everyone "needing" a battleship and isk to replace it before going to 0.0.. ?
--------------------------- 4. i like pizza |
Godar Marak
Amarr Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sorja
I would like to see NPC spawns that have quality over quantity. It would be more challenging at would help players at gaining true combat experience instead of turkey shooting.
What's your opinion?
Heh, do lv4 angel extravaganza flying amarr and see how long you last with a small armour repairer.
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Nigh7F0x
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:55:00 -
[23]
Quote: ...instead of turkey shooting.
me likes turkey
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Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.18 15:59:00 -
[24]
NPC are food only.
Go figure.
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Malena Panic
Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.09.18 16:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: MissileRus QFT! lets make missions in empire alot more profitable, i think more people would pvp if they could afford too.
The main barrier to PvP for people who want to PvP but can't afford to isn't isk, its the artificially restricted supply of T2 hardware. Increasing wages in this case will only drive up the cost of this equipment through inflation.
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Vactet
Immortalis Silens Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.09.18 16:03:00 -
[26]
Just no. The great thing about eve is CHOICE. I can choose if i want to rat all day, or mine all day, or run missions all day, or go find some PVP. Thats MY choice. Not anyone elses. I dont want missions and ratting to "prepare" me for PVP, i trully despise pvp. And before someone says to quit the game if I dislike PVP, shove it, seriously. And PVE isn't all that simple. Yeh you sorta know ahead of time what to tank for, but theres a good deal of surprise in it. Especially when you run a mission for the first time or fly into a belt. You dont know what your going to get. Is it going to be a few frigs that will easily be squashed? Or is a few cruisers and maybe a BC or BS. Oh and then what if you get the ever so fun Gallente Officers like in Illegal Activity LVL3 that are frigs but chuck Thunderbolt Heavies at you. Cant tank for those. Why? The rest of the mission will eat you cause they dont do EM. Point is. The great thing about eve is the choice that YOU, the one paying for the account, get to make about what you want to do. Forcing people to do certain things will kill the game (As has been proven by such games as SWG and WOW) I have a friend playing who absolutely detests PVP, evenmoreso than I do. But what does he enjoy? Manufacturing. He is a crafter in every game he has ever played. And guess what. Because of the multitude of choices in EVE, he can do what he enjoys, play how he wants, and not be forced into things he has no interest in. PVP is not the end all be all and I am really getting tired of PVPers thinking EVERYONE should PVP. Hey guys, guess what, without people like me and my friend, you would NOT be PVPing. Why is that? We are the logistics. We make ammo and such that you NEED in order to PVP. Now think about that as you launch your Thunderbolt Rage Heavy Missiles at your next victim.
And before anyone decides to assume why I dislike PVP, ill say this. I dislike it because I find that most PVPers are people with a childlike mentality trying to stroke their all to often imaginary E-Peen. And yes, I realize I am in a err...Pirate/PVP alliance. The people in said alliance are not the normal PVPers i come across. They are mature and are doing it because they enjoy it, not to prove they are better. And guess what, being in the Logistical corp for said alliance, I get to do what I enjoy and let others do what they enjoy.
To recap. Stop screaming that PVP is the end goal of EVE, its NOT. Its just one aspect of a multifaceted game.
PS: Have the balls to post with your main if you want to flame this. Otherwise you get ignored like guttertrash. Sometimes the world needs to be kicked in the face to stop drooling on itself like a child.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2006.09.18 16:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MissileRus
blah-blah
0.0 has just as much npc grinding as empire.
Recruitment |
Makoto Kasomyuki
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Posted - 2006.09.18 16:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vactet Just no. The great thing about eve is CHOICE. I can choose if i want to rat all day, or mine all day, or run missions all day, or go find some PVP. Thats MY choice. Not anyone elses. I dont want missions and ratting to "prepare" me for PVP, i trully despise pvp. And before someone says to quit the game if I dislike PVP, shove it, seriously. And PVE isn't all that simple. Yeh you sorta know ahead of time what to tank for, but theres a good deal of surprise in it. Especially when you run a mission for the first time or fly into a belt. You dont know what your going to get. Is it going to be a few frigs that will easily be squashed? Or is a few cruisers and maybe a BC or BS. Oh and then what if you get the ever so fun Gallente Officers like in Illegal Activity LVL3 that are frigs but chuck Thunderbolt Heavies at you. Cant tank for those. Why? The rest of the mission will eat you cause they dont do EM. Point is. The great thing about eve is the choice that YOU, the one paying for the account, get to make about what you want to do. Forcing people to do certain things will kill the game (As has been proven by such games as SWG and WOW) I have a friend playing who absolutely detests PVP, evenmoreso than I do. But what does he enjoy? Manufacturing. He is a crafter in every game he has ever played. And guess what. Because of the multitude of choices in EVE, he can do what he enjoys, play how he wants, and not be forced into things he has no interest in. PVP is not the end all be all and I am really getting tired of PVPers thinking EVERYONE should PVP. Hey guys, guess what, without people like me and my friend, you would NOT be PVPing. Why is that? We are the logistics. We make ammo and such that you NEED in order to PVP. Now think about that as you launch your Thunderbolt Rage Heavy Missiles at your next victim.
And before anyone decides to assume why I dislike PVP, ill say this. I dislike it because I find that most PVPers are people with a childlike mentality trying to stroke their all to often imaginary E-Peen. And yes, I realize I am in a err...Pirate/PVP alliance. The people in said alliance are not the normal PVPers i come across. They are mature and are doing it because they enjoy it, not to prove they are better. And guess what, being in the Logistical corp for said alliance, I get to do what I enjoy and let others do what they enjoy.
To recap. Stop screaming that PVP is the end goal of EVE, its NOT. Its just one aspect of a multifaceted game.
PS: Have the balls to post with your main if you want to flame this. Otherwise you get ignored like guttertrash.
Signed.
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Vactet
Immortalis Silens Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.09.18 16:37:00 -
[29]
Just to post an addition to my earlier post: Basically what I meant is this. Its all a balance. No mission runners/ratters=no named gear (Local Hull Expansion for Example) for others (including PVPers). No PVPers=Less of a market for stuff. No market=PVPers in Ibis's of Doom
So my point was that PVP is not the endgoal, its one of many goals. So stop, for the LOVE of GOD, trying to make everything be a "prep" for PVP. Call me a carebear, could care less. But I will thank you ahead of time for buying those 2 Local Hull's, and Arbalest Heavy Missile Launcher i just put on the market that I got from mission rats. So yeh, just getting sick of the whole "PVP is endgoal" BS.
Sometimes the world needs to be kicked in the face to stop drooling on itself like a child.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.09.18 17:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sorja Since EVE is a PvP game...
#
...since EVE is NOT exclusively a PvP game, but is designed to cater for all players, whether they like PvP or not; how about you scrap the whole post and start over. ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
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