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Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
38
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Posted - 2015.01.22 19:20:51 -
[1] - Quote
For an explanation of what i mean by the term, see here. For a game as durable as Eve, it's not hard to imagine CCP has to revisit the issue of power creep for items, skills and activities on a regular basis.
I can't really say anything about skills, so i'll leave this entirely open for discussion.
Activities though can be compared by calculating c = x + y * i for each one, where x is ISK/hour, y is fun and i is the imaginary unit. By choosing a player-driven economy model, CCP already ensured that x would stabilize over time for every new activity, thus pretty much eliminating the issue of power creep for activities.
When it comes to items i can think of a number of actions CCP took to combat power creep. Yet again, the economy helps by adjusting the cost. But from what i read also direct measures like the abandonment of T2 BPO lotteries, the re-evaluation of technetium and and countless rebalancings served that purpose. The number of variables that can be included or left out when calculating c for items is legion though, which makes judging whether a new item is better than an old one almost completely subjective.
So, what is your favorite occurrence where a new thing outclassed old things? And did later events change that for you? To get things rolling i'll start: "Omg! They just had T3 cruisers banned from entering all combat sites and then they introduced a new class of do-it-all T3 ships. Srsly."
PS: EC is awesome, check out the episode about mmo inflation for instance. |
Galadriel Vasquez
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
287
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Posted - 2015.01.22 19:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
The voice on that youtube video - too much american. Sorry my ears have just fallen off my head and the cat has picked them up and run off.... kk thx bai.
I have tin foil hat trained to 5.
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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1423
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Posted - 2015.01.22 19:50:49 -
[3] - Quote
T3 destroyers are a huge mistake, they are ludicrous overpowered.
Power creep at its finest....
The Tears Must Flow
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4546
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Posted - 2015.01.22 20:44:45 -
[4] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:T3 destroyers are a huge mistake, they are ludicrous overpowered.
Power creep at its finest.... Not power creep, rather CCP likes to shake the ant farm once in a while to keep things interesting. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9412
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Posted - 2015.01.22 20:50:09 -
[5] - Quote
Definitions:
Over-Powered (OP): Anything (item or ship) that killed ME, preventing me from winning because don't they know who I am?!?
Under-Powered (UP): anything I like to use, especially if I was using it when I got killed by that Obviously OP thing that CCP should nerf so I can win
Unbalanced: See OP
Perfectly Balanced: Ishtars (especially if you're in an alliance that flys nothing but Ishtars, or you own an Ishtar Blue Print)
Power Creep: New things that ccp makes that kill ME because don't they know who the F$%^ i am???! |
Boozbaz
Dhalion Industries Liberti Fidelis
2
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Posted - 2015.01.22 22:36:56 -
[6] - Quote
This thread is getting a lot of ignorant responses. Yes powercreep is a thing. Even though there have been boosts to the damage that ships do, I think overall CCP has done a good job of making sure that nothing gets left behind. Take a look at force recons for example, they are aware of the situation and making changes here and there to keep as many ships as relevant as possible. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
611
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Posted - 2015.01.23 00:01:09 -
[7] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Definitions:
Over-Powered (OP): Anything (item or ship) that killed ME, preventing me from winning because don't they know who I am?!?
Under-Powered (UP): anything I like to use, especially if I was using it when I got killed by that Obviously OP thing that CCP should nerf so I can win
Unbalanced: See OP
Perfectly Balanced: Ishtars (especially if you're in an alliance that flys nothing but Ishtars, or you own an Ishtar Blue Print)
Power Creep: New things that ccp makes that kill ME because don't they know who the F$%^ i am???!
TL;DR version: Abloobloobloo I died
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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FapFap McLotionhand
Storm Hunters Disturbed Acquaintance
6
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Posted - 2015.01.23 01:07:07 -
[8] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Definitions:
Over-Powered (OP): Anything (item or ship) that killed ME, preventing me from winning because don't they know who I am?!?
Under-Powered (UP): anything I like to use, especially if I was using it when I got killed by that Obviously OP thing that CCP should nerf so I can win
Unbalanced: See OP
Perfectly Balanced: Ishtars (especially if you're in an alliance that flys nothing but Ishtars, or you own an Ishtar Blue Print)
Power Creep: New things that ccp makes that kill ME because don't they know who the F$%^ i am???!
SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT!!!!
[u]I SPACE, NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU FAP!!!!!!!!! FAPAPFAPFAPFAP[/u]
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1360
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Posted - 2015.01.23 01:19:11 -
[9] - Quote
Actually the EVE power cycle is unusual:
1. new item/module/tactic is introduced and is possibly a touch powerful
2. new item/module/tactic becomes popular and makes it into doctrines
3. forum haters hate and forum whiners whine
4. in response CCP nerf new item into uselessness |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11382
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Posted - 2015.01.23 01:25:26 -
[10] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:T3 destroyers are a huge mistake, they are ludicrous overpowered.
Power creep at its finest....
I can only imagine that you haven't flown a Confessor. They are a pain in the ass to fit, and their target range is still about the same as a regular old destroyer, with some better ability to engage T1 medium ships.
They have some gang potential for people who like to kite, but the existence of sentry guns pretty much abrogates that, since these things don't take gatefire all that well.
So basically they're having trouble finding a niche that isn't already filled by regular dessies. Although it is highly possible this is just because Lasers are weak. Once the one with Hybrid guns comes out we'll have to re-evaluate. I highly doubt the Svipul (my nipple) will make any big waves.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Serene Repose
2118
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Posted - 2015.01.23 01:45:59 -
[11] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Actually the EVE power cycle is unusual:
1. new item/module/tactic is introduced and is possibly a touch powerful
2. new item/module/tactic becomes popular and makes it into doctrines
3. forum haters hate and forum whiners whine
4. in response CCP nerf new item into uselessness All fine and dandy, but for one thing. What's this forum have to do with any of this? The game, if you actually play, isn't played here.
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
502
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Posted - 2015.01.23 09:51:14 -
[12] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote: When it comes to items i can think of a number of actions CCP took to combat power creep. Yet again, the economy helps by adjusting the cost. But from what i read also direct measures like the abandonment of T2 BPO lotteries, the re-evaluation of technetium
What did the BPO lotteries and Tech nerf have to do with power creep?
I really don't get the point of this post at all, power creep is just changes to the game incrementally making things more powerful, which isn't a huge issue. Maybe in general ships are a bit tougher but in a game like Eve where PVE has very little relevance that isn't much of an issue. |
Ahmazzan
Coldlight Solutions
5
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Posted - 2015.01.23 12:05:51 -
[13] - Quote
With regard to the youtube vid in the OP... I really felt that using WoW as an example of a game with endemic power creep whilst citing it as a -bad- thing was not a great choice... sure you could class it as power creep but it's really just standard RPG progression, the gear at level 30 for example is just as irrelevant as it's always been because it's purpose, by design, is to be only used temporarily, and that goes for stuff at 60/70/80, it'll go out of date next expansion. Heirlooms would have been a better example but still not perfect. Also there's plenty of ways to continue that sort of system whilst making it sustainable... stat squishes, etc.
Not only that, but I've never known anyone to return to an MMORPG and then quit because they found that their "gear was now worthless"... what the hell did you expect? that everyone in this persistent, ever expanding world would wait for you?
There's nothing wrong with things becoming old content, otherwise, if you take it out of context, human culture is subject to power creep: medieval texts for instance are only studied by a (relatively) small field of specialists, akin to the people who go out of their way to revisit old outdated content for nostalgia's sake. Does that mean we should limit the development of our culture to ensure that everything from this point on is the same and that information created would always remain relevant? no... that would be terrible... our culture and the speed of our development would stagnate overnight (IMHO of course).
The digital TCG example used was much better and is more relevant to Eve, in that in most TCGs the idea, at least in theory is to keep everything relevant and useful, like the wide varieties of ships in eve, and relatively speaking I'd say that CCP is definitely one of the better developers at managing it. Someone already mentioned the recon rebalance, another good example would be the mining barge rebalance, and although it's taking it's time to arrive, the T3's will eventually get hit by the New Eden Role Fine-tuning Bat (NERF bat for short). Pretty much every ship is useful for something barring one or two ugly ducklings; Eve's version of Fugitive Wizard if you will.
Anyway, TL;DR I disliked the way power creep was characterised in the video as always bad. sometimes it's there by design. Sometimes it's just simply not a problem. Eve's power creep is nicely managed IMO.
Edit: oh and sorry, that ended up as a bit of a rant... |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
883
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Posted - 2015.01.23 14:18:50 -
[14] - Quote
One of the concepts in that video to control power creep is incomparables.
CCP has basically wrote the book on incomparables IMO.
Anytime someone says something like 'Tengu is OP' the very next thing out of someone's mouth is 'bring a Pilgrim' and the argument is over. We all know Pilgrim's eat Tengu's alive. When something like the 100 MN tengu got out of whack they nerfed HML range and fixed the problem.
There are far too many different weapon systems in this game to ever worry about power creep.
Not today spaghetti.
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Tim Timpson
Solitude Trading
19
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Posted - 2015.01.23 14:33:38 -
[15] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote:Activities though can be compared by calculating c = x + y * i for each one, where x is ISK/hour, y is fun and i is the imaginary unit. By choosing a player-driven economy model, CCP already ensured that x would stabilize over time for every new activity, thus pretty much eliminating the issue of power creep for activities. I have to say, I love how this is stated as if it's simple, yet involves multiplying Isk per hour (which differs greatly based on the player and the economy) and adding it to fun (which is subjective) multiplied by the imaginary unit.
Arguably though, this means that as people keep saying how mining is boring and that's why nobody should mine (with Sabriz going as far as to suggest that people who like mining do not exist) that means mining is vastly underpowered compared to most other activities, so x should be increased drastically. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
850
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Posted - 2015.01.23 15:33:32 -
[16] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:The voice on that youtube video - too much american.
Excuse me?
Stay on topic please. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
850
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Posted - 2015.01.23 15:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:T3 destroyers are a huge mistake, they are ludicrous overpowered.
Power creep at its finest.... Not power creep, rather CCP likes to shake the ant farm once in a while to keep things interesting.
This and there are counters to the new T3 Destroyer. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4184
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Posted - 2015.01.23 18:57:23 -
[18] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
800
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Posted - 2015.01.23 19:08:50 -
[19] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:T3 destroyers are a huge mistake, they are ludicrous overpowered.
Power creep at its finest.... Not power creep, rather CCP likes to shake the ant farm once in a while to keep things interesting. CCP decided to give the fat kids swatters.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
19508
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Posted - 2015.01.23 19:32:34 -
[20] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: I hate destroyers and Tier 3s. They are too cheap for far too much damage. Destroyers get cruiser level damage with frigate type tanking and they do that at silly cheap costs to skill, time and ISK.
The destroyers who sport cruiser level damage, usually do so at the expense of tank. Hence the most feared destroyer, the "gank" Catalyst, having no tank modules at all, and sporting barely any EHP. They get one-shottted by the WKs and such all the time. A Catalyst that was tanked properly wouldn't have nearly the DPS of a cruiser, nor the EHP of a properly fitted frigate either, hence why Destroyers are balanced.
Same goes for the ABCs. The "gank Talos" once again sacrifices all manner of tank for maximum DPS, and can be easily dealt with. Once again, when properly tanked, a Talos sports less DPS than a properly fitted BS, with less EHP than a properly tanked cruiser.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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72inches
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
4
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Posted - 2015.01.24 00:28:25 -
[21] - Quote
the OP is asking '...when it was noticeable that a new thing outclassed an old thing..." in an apples to apples comparison.
I am struggling to give an example can anyone?
Pretty sure this a fairly unique-to-CCP consistent intention but i dont really keep up either |
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
40
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Posted - 2015.01.25 23:39:46 -
[22] - Quote
Ahmazzan wrote:I disliked the way power creep was characterised in the video as always bad. sometimes it's there by design. Sometimes it's just simply not a problem. Well, the EC guys have a certain attitude. In another vid they also classified skinner boxing as an entirely bad thing, though in my opinion it's probably the only rigorous scientific approach towards defining what "fun" in games is. But, as with Marx, it's not about whether they are right or not, they just opened the discourse. In defense of their stance though, and to answer question two in #11: They don't criticize power creep as a side effect of game expansions, they criticize it as the sole purpose of game expansions. If you now have to fight red slimes that don't really differ from the old green ones to get competitive gear again, that's not really that exciting. This fact has given birth to the whole culture of pushing players, and to whose who do that it's not an "ever expanding world", but a world that stays the same size, just the end bit changes now and then. A negative side effect of power creep can also be that you're dividing your playerbase when it comes to multiplayer activities. I've seen enough games where e.g. the vets constantly complain about not being able to find opponents for pvp combat, when everybody else is simply still getting their gear up.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:What did the BPO lotteries and Tech nerf have to do with power creep? For competitive players they set new standards in their respective fields when they were introduced. If left undisturbed they would've e.g. led to "you either have a T2 BPO or you're not doing industry".
Ahmazzan wrote:Eve's power creep is nicely managed IMO. That's a given. I'm actually still awed by the way everything's interconnected and no isolated instances of anything are left in this game. But i do believe to get to this point CCP had to walk down a rocky road, so i'd like to get to know about some of the outrages of the past.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
814
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Posted - 2015.01.26 00:36:09 -
[23] - Quote
Stick with me on this and try look at what I am driving at because I am getting a vague inkling here:
Tech 3s, big jump up on power - battleships not so useful Warp speeds, jump on mobility - battleships and battle cruisers less used. Drone power - many turrent ships side lined. Missiles (used to be good) - now turrets are better, especially rails. Interceptors - immunity to tackle, further reduces larger ships because they can't keep up with the gang or fleet and can't pin them down.
All the added power, making ganking easier and it becomes more prolific, so carebears start quitting, CCP then releases missions in newbie systems to give safe ore.
Sounding about right?
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Neesa Corrinne
Sanctuary of Shadows
82
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Posted - 2015.01.26 01:07:38 -
[24] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Definitions:
Over-Powered (OP): Anything (item or ship) that killed ME, preventing me from winning because don't they know who I am?!?
Under-Powered (UP): anything I like to use, especially if I was using it when I got killed by that Obviously OP thing that CCP should nerf so I can win
Unbalanced: See OP
Perfectly Balanced: Ishtars (especially if you're in an alliance that flys nothing but Ishtars, or you own an Ishtar Blue Print)
Power Creep: New things that ccp makes that kill ME because don't they know who the F$%^ i am???!
Not quite.
Over-powered. Titan AOE Doomsday circa 2008. Wiping entire fleets off of the field with a single button push through a jump portal.
Under-powered. Current iteration Titan doomsday which can be tanked by a properly fit capital.
Unbalanced. Performs far outside the abilities of other ships/modules in it's class. See Ishtar.
Perfectly Balanced. See unobtainium.
Power Creep. Continuing to add hyper powerful ships into the game which do not fill any need whatsoever. Because new ships. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
594
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Posted - 2015.01.26 01:10:20 -
[25] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Actually the EVE power cycle is unusual:
1. new item/module/tactic is introduced and is possibly a touch powerful 2. new item/module/tactic becomes popular and makes it into doctrines 3. forum haters hate and forum whiners whine 4. in response CCP nerf new item into uselessness
Pretty much. It's become a game dictated by whiners and non-thinkers, and we elected some to the CSM. I hope the new incoming CSM uses their heads and common sense more than the current one. |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
1111
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Posted - 2015.01.26 03:37:55 -
[26] - Quote
This is a laughable topic as power creep is built into the game. The basis of the game is the skill system and the longer you are subscribed, not the amount you play, mostly determines your success.
So while other games worry about introducing the +5 vorpal blade of eternia, in EvE you are forced to be subscribed for a very long time if you ever want to pilot the most powerful ships and/ or use the best equipment.
This is why it is important and difficult for EvE to keep new subs. Name another game where you join in only to find out it will be over a year, no matter how much you play, before you can use the best equipment. But wait, there is more. For you to fully utilize all the abilities of said item to it's fullest you have to spend another year, no matter how much you play, to master it.
This is why the bitter vets continually fight against anything that speeds up progression in EvE. Then they do not have to worry about what happens to vets in so many other games, where someone new with skillz can tool on a vet without any.
This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
13930
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Posted - 2015.01.26 09:09:40 -
[27] - Quote
I thought this was a thread about a pilot...
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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