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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29639
|
Posted - 2015.02.01 11:50:03 -
[1] - Quote
Removing learning implants is a bad decision for the gameplay it removes for players who generate them, but risk aversion over learning rates is a problem that needs to be addressed for the pulse of the game. SP accumulation is a passive activity that is affecting active gameplay.
A more elegant solution is zero cooldown for same-station jumps.
The issue is beyond the game mechanics and simple risk. SP accumulation is a benefit of paid subscription time. The thought process that causes this hangup of not undocking is simple. SP is important, and compared to the prospect of loss, SP accumulation over undocking is an easy and appealing choice.
Zero-cooldown same-station jump clone timers would allow players to make efficient use of inactive subscription time, without that decision affecting active gameplay, or the other way around. The two should be disconnected. They need to be disconnected.
Another result of zero-cooldown, same-station jump clones would be switching from an uber crystal clone to a slave clone, but I don't think this is anything to get upset about. It's not very different from docking to swap ships.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29753
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 02:13:21 -
[2] - Quote
I'm wondering what CCP Karkur meant in the o7 show (two episodes ago), when she said removing medical clones allowed her to do something she can't talk about.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29765
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 13:10:44 -
[3] - Quote
It would be super cool to pod jump into Valkyrie or Legion clones, but NPC pod killing makes more sense.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29765
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 13:18:05 -
[4] - Quote
Yeah, it's a fun change. Also welcomed for the removal of clone costs. It was getting rather severe for me.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29765
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 13:25:48 -
[5] - Quote
Don't mind him, he's got cabin fever after being cooped up in that wormhole of his.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29790
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 23:53:16 -
[6] - Quote
Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29810
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 14:55:08 -
[7] - Quote
turning into? or is
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29825
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 00:59:33 -
[8] - Quote
Because by SP and born date, 7, 8, and 9 are the core of rainfleet. Seemed a more symmetrical arrangement.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29833
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 17:03:31 -
[9] - Quote
multiple clones in the same station would be nice too.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29834
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 21:05:49 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Without attributes, you would probably be training a little support and a little from ship skill categories so that you could get started quickly and improve as you play, but attributes provide what amounts to a large skill point reward for training things in a nonsensical order that makes you wait to play the game.
The current concept represented in the game today might be better if attributes mapped more cleanly to functional roles in EVE, but remember that even taking attributes out entirely and having a flat skill training speed wouldn't remove that choice of how to specialize. You still would have to train skills in an order that gets you somewhere you want to be, and the most efficient way to do that would be to train for the thing you'd like to do. Darwin, I apologize for bringing in another issue right now, but that contradicts something else that is awkward about skills, and unexplained: The random selection of support skills for T2 ships and the waiting to fly a T2 ship without the option of flying a weakly-skilled one.
T2 level V prereqs table
Pragmatic arrangement of skill prereqs
I want to agree with you unequivocally, but why is such pragmatic logic applied to this situation, when there's another issue that is just as blatant and uncomfortable, and is not being considered for reform?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29836
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 21:22:43 -
[11] - Quote
Sort of wrong. Before you can risk PVP implants, you have to forego learning implants. On top of the loss aversion factor, not having learning implants active is loss in itself. By plugging in PVP implants at all, you're already missing out on a potential degree of SP accumulation.
Using PVP implants is the same opportunity cost of losing a clone full of learning implants. Aside from CA-s, but they're a lot of ISK for wishy-washy half-PVP, half-learning implants. And they're limited issue.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29843
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 23:17:45 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Learning Implants don't double your speed, we are taking about what for most is just days saved over a year. Optimal implants and remap give you a 50% bonus to training speed for the fastest skills over doing nothing (no implants, no remap.) (1800 SP/hr for neutral remap and no implants, 2700 SP/hr for the best possible remap and +5 implants, 1530 SP/hr for off-map skills when you are optimally mapped and implanted only for something else.) Over a year, you'd earn 15,768,000 SP at the base rate. Strict optimal mapping and implants get you to that point at 8 months. However, the moment you decide to deviate from your optimal remap, you're training at between half speed and two-thirds that optimal speed for the privilege. These differences are more than just days per year. They're very significant. As I said before, this system rewards a pile of skill points for training skills in an order that is explicitly wrong for whatever you want to do (because whatever you want to do will always include a substantial amount of off-remap skills.) I see this as an issue of irl money value of a subscription. By playing, and taking risks, you're receiving less value for your sub money.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29848
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 03:45:23 -
[13] - Quote
aaaand the gameplay for people who acquire implants?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29851
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 05:57:20 -
[14] - Quote
normalize attributes, keep attribute implants, zero cooldown local clone jumps.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29854
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 07:49:54 -
[15] - Quote
Kaely Tanniss wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:Kaely Tanniss wrote: Implants serve a purpose. They have benefits and drwbacks such as risk. If CCP keeps removing the risk factor of the game, it will lose the very core of what the majority of players play it for. If you're afraid to lose implants, don't fit them. Note that learning implants provide greater reasons for risk-averse behavior than types that provide benefit for ship pilots. If you want to incentivize players risking valuable implants, the best you can do are implants that directly improve the experience of undocking in your ship. The worst you can do are implants that are just as effective even when you're logged-off. It still seems to me that removing the concept of implants that speed skill training would increase people's willingness to spend money on implants that provide benefits to piloting a ship, and then undocking with those implants, thereby risking them.Of course, as stated in my prior posts, I am not on the team developing this feature. I'm just offering these thoughts to contribute to the conversation. Fair enough. I can see the reason to remove attribute implants..I just don't agree with it. To me it's something that can be used to increase skill learning depending on how much isk you want to spend. Which, or course, would benefit older/richer chars more than others..ut it is just another goal to work towards imo. What I would NOT want taken away are implant sets such as slaves, etc...but I don't think that is even something that had been considered..I hope. Sure, a full set of +5's may deter some people from wanting to PvP, i can see that...but that's why i have jc's. I'f I am going to low or null, i will switch clones to avoid losing an expensive set of implants should I get popped. Idk, it's really a preference thing imo. I think it works fine as it is...and if it's not broken...why fix it. Here's why it's clunky. If you want to play Monday through Friday, and not go out in your +5 set, you jump clone into your PVP set. Then you have to wait 18 hours before jumping back into your +5 set. Six hours after your jump cooldown expires, you're looking to go out again, so you stay out of your +5 set, then jump back into it after you PVP. 18 hours later, you jump back out to PVP, then have to spend the night out of your +5 set again.
So even though learning and a +5 set is a passive activity, and something you do when you aren't logged in, the timing of the jump cooldown (18 h minimum) means it will be forever out of sync with a consistent play schedule. You end up spending the night out of your +5 set every other day.
I don't think that can be considered meaningful. It is more like clunky and stilted, don't you think?
Adjusting the jump clone timer to anything other than zero is bad because it allows too much mobility for the conventional purpose of jump cloning to a different location. Even for the purpose of local jump cloning (to swap in and out of +5 sets), a shorter cooldown (non-zero) will still be out of sync with your sleep or work schedule, and you'll have to start setting alarm clocks to make best use of +5 sets while not logged in (which is a passive activity, remember).
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29854
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 07:58:50 -
[16] - Quote
I'm disappointed in you for applying a quaint cliche to such an important issue that can be solved.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29855
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 08:11:45 -
[17] - Quote
"risk vs reward" is a nice ideal, and it applies in a lot of situations, but in this case it's bullheaded. The reality of the choice is players choose not to undock, and this slows the pulse of EVE on a grand scale. It's not hard to follow the rationale.
It's a huge unknown. You don't know how much the game is suffering as a result because it's never been any other way. I could be wrong, but I think the local cooldown deserves a test period.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29856
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 08:18:51 -
[18] - Quote
If +5 sets weren't so damning, they'd be more popular. Win-win, right... more active and passive gameplay.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29856
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 08:43:39 -
[19] - Quote
The way I see it, remaps for money or ISK is making a profit from a game flaw.
create uncomfortable situation -> charge for cure
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29862
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 00:28:40 -
[20] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Seiko Sorrelius wrote: No game mechanic should ever place fun against permanent character growth: remaps.
No game mechanic should place isk loss against permanent charcter growth: attribute implants.
Isk is the lifeblood of the game and can almost directly correlate to fun, ...
... And primarily, skill training is no longer linked to a loss in fun.
Fun isn't and hopefully never becomes the sole goal of the game designers. Challenge, unique play, sense of achievement and accomplishment, diverse options, etc. These are all aspects of the game that different players gain out of playing the game. I hope Eve never reduces every sub-game to fun. Then it will truly be a theme-park game. what? Surely you realize that fun and all those other requirements are not mutually exclusive.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29862
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 00:42:38 -
[21] - Quote
As for fun, EVE has a huge problem in lacking visceral feedback. The target lock sequence is tame, and the following button press of F1 through F8 is tame, too. The damage calculation is not engaging (compared to manual aiming).
EVE very closely resembles a text-based game like Dungeons and Dragons. Stop calling PVE "dungeons", thanks.
There is plenty of room for fun. There are benchmarks for what qualifies an MMO as successful based on subscriptions, and EVE is what, 1/10th of that? EVE is not fun, we are not normal players. Make no mistake, we are all broken for playing this game and sticking to it.
Players who say they will leave if EVE becomes a Theme Park MMO, or even mention the term Theme Park MMO need to leave right now, for equivocating any improvement in EVE as something bad.
Successful games are enjoyed by everyone. Players who disagree with that statement need to leave, and have no place in a discussion such as this one.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29862
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 01:02:42 -
[22] - Quote
This is to no one in particular:
Playing EVE does not make you edgy, it certainly does not make you leet. EVE is essentially a turn based game. Adjust your perspective before considering an opinion in a change discussion thread.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29865
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 03:30:37 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Phoenix Czech wrote:Two things I do not like on this: 1) It will probably lead to slow skilling. Skilling is already slow enough even with +5 implants and max. remap. 2) Actual atribute system force me to thing about skilling. Make plans for sklil que and remaps. It force me to use my brain. Removing this mechanic simply move eve closer to stupid arcade game types. If I would like play games where pushing two buttons is maximum possible, I would play another game (Pac Man for example).
1) is an assumption that really doesn't have a basis. 2) Regardless of skill training speed, there are plenty of difficult choices to make in a system where you can only train one (out of hundreds) of skills at once, and they usually take days, or longer. A system that required you to solve a math problem before adding a skill to your skill queue would also force you to use your brain while choosing skills, but it would be a ridiculous gameplay roadblock. Tests of knowledge or skill that have no relevance to the rest of the game aren't inherently valuable solely because they add difficulty. Finally, I'd advise that if you're trying to change the mind of the development team, you're best off arguing your case rather than dismissing arguments on the other side of the question as "stupid." I reserve my right to call things stupid. For a lot of players, that is the best they know how to express themselves.
For players and devs: check your feelings at the door, etc.
For devs: do your job, read feedback.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29865
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 04:07:33 -
[24] - Quote
Being unable to share GM responses is part of the point. If they don't want to participate and communicate publicly, let the workload be compounded by communicating with us 1 on 1. The goal is for this "be nice to devs" excuse to go away, because it's an excuse to stay out of touch with players who attempt to communicate at all.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29865
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 04:15:20 -
[25] - Quote
So your question is more important than mine? I was under the impression I get to ask questions for having a sub, just like you.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29865
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 04:21:44 -
[26] - Quote
I wasn't the one who introduced the "be nice to devs" idea into this thread. The discussion is fine, but the addition of that excuse is a bit much. With it, what's the point?
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29865
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 04:25:34 -
[27] - Quote
Because I'm known for posting nonsense. If that's how you took it, that's your assumption. I plan to make use of it for well though-out, reasonable inquiries.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29865
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 04:33:47 -
[28] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I wasn't the one who introduced the "be nice to devs" idea into this thread. The discussion is fine, but the addition of that excuse is a bit much. With it, what's the point? They hope you will just leave them so they can turn this thread into an echo chamber... which will be ignored anyway I guess?
Yeah. Sometimes I just want answers, and this thread has revealed itself as being pointless.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29867
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 18:07:15 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Finally, I'd advise that if you're trying to change the mind of the development team, you're best off arguing your case rather than dismissing arguments on the other side of the question as "stupid."
CCP Darwin wrote:Rain6637 wrote:For devs: do your job, read feedback. I resent the "be nice to devs or they won't read your comments" bit of logic, if you can't tell. It's a cop-out, especially in this player culture. I think we can all survive a little impassioned language. My point was that solely dismissing an argument as "stupid" with no real discussion wasn't likely to carry the conversation forward. "That's a stupid idea because A, B, C" is different from "OK, that's stupid, let's move on." You conceded that devs are unwilling or unable to filter feedback. Unless you and every other dev who has attempted to put the onus on customers, wants to take it back, it means this discussion and posting on EVE-O at all is an exercise in futility.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29867
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 18:42:42 -
[30] - Quote
Yes we all understand this. The comment that we should be nice opened this door, now, didn't it.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29867
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 19:06:10 -
[31] - Quote
I.... just want to say that I've climbed over the 50 million SP core skills hump seven times. Not my problem anymore.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29898
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 10:15:17 -
[32] - Quote
There's the possibility of emergency unplugging of implants under duress.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29916
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 22:17:40 -
[33] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Noxisia Arkana wrote:There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.
While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here. PvP doesn't add anything of value to me. Lets get rid of it. My suggestion for fixing faction standings is a tag system similar to clone tags for security status. F&I
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29922
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 23:59:08 -
[34] - Quote
sorta moot, considering the med clone cost was removed to allow sleepers and drifters to pod us. So not only was it purely an RP/ lore based change, it's also too soon for those metrics to show anything. There's too much habit and ingrained behavior for the recent med clone change to have affected much, I think.
the low end of the top 20% of SP characters is lower than you think. Perhaps you meant to say clones with more than x amount of SP, say, 200 mil +.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29924
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 03:58:39 -
[35] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:EVE Game Design has been looking at the entire clone and skill systems with an eye toward simplification and improving game design, and the removal of med clone cost was the first step of that. It doesn't need to be simple, just intuitive. I'm under the impression med clone costs were only removed to allow NPCs to pod us, and lore / RP.
Not the math of it and the fact that it made very little sense ten years in (and was basically a constantly increasing punishment for accumulating SP).
So no, I'm not buying it.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29924
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 05:07:30 -
[36] - Quote
There's probably a concern about high sec mission runners being unable to make use of jump clones without sufficient Faction standings, or know-how. If that's the case and educating these independent randoms is not considered an option (which it probably isn't), CCP will probably use the solution that involves no further action from independents.
It's bullshit, but it would include the normalization of attributes and removing the remap mechanic. I can only hope they'll allow attribute implants to stay.
I mean, really, what does a high sec mission nobody need slots 1-5 for, other than attributes. Crystal sets for their Golem or Tengu character? Which, if you ask me, already meet their needs with the +4 attributes that have been added to HG sets.
Or you could make NPC corp jump clone installations free from a standings requirement, and swap the lore over to a profit-driven service, rather than a loyalty service to capsuleers. Similar to the changes to POS standings in high sec.
Suddenly, I get the feeling remaps are being removed, and all attributes will be set at 24, or whatever the average is.
What would make me happy is if HG sets had +5s to attributes, rather than +4. That would solve some dilemmas for vets and randoms alike, all over EVE.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29924
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 05:23:44 -
[37] - Quote
I'm all for simplification where it's needed, but that would be re-complicating things unnecessarily.
With super pilots unable to dock, at first glance they seem to miss out on training with +5s, but the smart thing to do is sit in that super with +5s in, and the appropriate HG set in cargo. That way if they get into some **** they can unplug their +5s and swap into slaves, or snakes, etc.
Or hold supers with sitters.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29925
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 08:47:03 -
[38] - Quote
False dichotomy alert.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29926
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 12:04:10 -
[39] - Quote
Let's remember who we're talking about here. The group who are still stuck in the Intel Mem / Per Will support skill rut. This is a group of players who don't understand that armor repairs are free if they use a local repair module at the undock, rather than paying for in-station repair services after every mission. A few years ago, I met a rookie flying a Navy Raven with CN gear, who couldn't figure out how to come out of missions with a profit after paying for armor repairs. I was a bit envious of their gameplay, for making use of station repairs and taking them so seriously, but if they are to be helped by changes to make things smoother, it would look like standardized attributes at a minimum.
And free station repairs for anything not heat-related. I don't see why not, since the only people who use them are the uninformed, and repairs to armor and hull are free with modules. Shields could also use a button to request repairs, instead of letting this depth of gameplay fall through the cracks. (apparently rookies like that sort of thing).
A bit ago I mentioned I don't have these types of problems, and the hard decisions of Intel Mem or Per Wil. Looking at it from the perspective of someone who does, I'd say yeah it sucks, and it's unusual when it comes to game design.
There's something called Principle of Least Astonishment. It's a UI term, but I think it applies here. If it takes too long to figure out, or something looks unusual enough, after a certain point it simply qualifies as bad design. For being confusing or confounding.
I'll give it to EVE for being different, but attributes are just awkward. And why is the time limit a year, anyway. Another compromise aside from the ones already discussed would be more frequent remaps. Once a month, perhaps. I think that's fitting because it coincides with a unit of subscription (1 month).
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29926
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 12:55:54 -
[40] - Quote
wat
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29926
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 14:09:07 -
[41] - Quote
Whenever I see someone posting with a righteous or indignant tone I assume it's a dev posting on an alt.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29926
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 14:21:06 -
[42] - Quote
lol. no, not you. but come to think of it, maybe CCP Darwin should start posting on an alt for his own sake.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29926
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 23:07:56 -
[43] - Quote
Depends, although initially it looks like a bad idea. Would it involve a debuff of attribute effects from pirate implant sets? Also, how low would you need to make the price point to agree with the current infinitely low / almost zero cost of attribute implants over time if you never undock or risk them.
If it's 2.5 million ISK per attribute at +5 per week, then okay. I would be agreeable with effectively buying another +5 implant per attribute, per year. But not more than that. Though regardless of the cost, moving a one-time cost to a recurring cost is just painful.
Maybe it's confirmation bias, but I really dislike that idea. I dislike it as much as med clone costs.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29926
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 23:35:37 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Karkur is very clear in the November o7 show, in stating the extended skill queue enables some things which she couldn't discuss. So there is a reason for it, but it's secret. or something.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29926
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 23:41:57 -
[45] - Quote
Sabriz is a candidate, not an actual CSM. make sure to go and vote
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29927
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 05:01:21 -
[46] - Quote
have some balls. say shitposting.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29929
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 10:15:55 -
[47] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:Soldarius wrote:Jane Shapperd wrote:i already stoped paying by long term basis i now pay month by month basis So your solution is to give CCP more money? gj, I'm sure they have been properly incentivized to change their behavior. no it's not. it's telling CCP that you are not going to give them a blank check for a year to do whatever. If they hold off on stupidity sure they gain 12, 24, or 36 dollars. But only if they hold off on the stupidity. That's exactly how I look at annuals. It's not really blank, as it's a clear amount ($131 USD per annual), but yeah, I feel the same way about making those payments.
Lately I've begun cancelling the recurring billing right away, and left my biggest gripe as the reason. "one year at a time ;-)"
If I seem especially vicious on EVE-O, just keep in mind that I'm a paying customer, to the tune of ten annuals per year, or $1,310.00 USD ;-)
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29929
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 10:53:21 -
[48] - Quote
what he's saying and what you think he's saying are two different things.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29931
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 11:08:13 -
[49] - Quote
There's also the matter of value for your sub fee. If you train slower, you're receiving less SP value for it.
8 days can also be especially painful if it's a prereq for something else, that has to be suffered.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29931
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 11:22:41 -
[50] - Quote
I think we're forgetting how serious the effects of attributes can be on the game. Jita and Amarr... influenced by the Achura stat distribution that used to drive character selection for a long time. That's been changed, but the momentum of Jita is a juggernaut at this point.
I mentioned it before, but when it comes to something like attributes and implant costs, there's no way to know how else players might behave if it was different.
The example of Jita and Achura's popularity is kind of important because it involves the same mechanic, of attributes and SP accumulation. I can't tell the future, but I'm willing to say I'm sure we'll find that EVE was gimped as a result of how attributes, remaps, and implants impinged on gameplay.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29933
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 11:49:49 -
[51] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Dave Stark wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:the system works fine, you suggest it isn't.
i wasn't asking if the system worked. i asked you why you think it's ok that new players are forced to train slower than the rest of us. because 8 days is nothing. you again make out that nobody else had to train the very same way when we did, so how is anyone being shafted ? you think it's ok because you don't regard 8 days as a long time. that's fine. glad we finally got to the bottom of that one. "because we all had to endure a ****** system" is not justification for keeping a ****** system. dave's right on this one, xxtrust. The intel/mem per/wil dilemma is stacked against players who have to make the choice, and doesn't at all affect players who have trained those skills. Obviously. So this is very literally a problem that heavily/ nearly exclusively affects new characters. Just because you suffered through it, doesn't mean it should stay. It can be better.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29933
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 11:52:47 -
[52] - Quote
Trust is on tilt and not thinking straight. Gregor is on a witch hunt for no apparent reason.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29933
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 12:11:51 -
[53] - Quote
+4 on HG sets is kind of nice, for PVE types who don't have to worry about PVP. I recently started going out in a Golem in high sec for kicks, which I haven't done in a few years... I'm thinking pirate sets are a nice blend of training and PVP, and worth their cost.
I'm not sure if the statistic is still valid, but if it's true that a lot of players (possibly the majority) are high sec lurkers who level up their Raven, something like attributes added to more implants is a nice option.
A blend of attributes into every type of implant in slots 1-5. A new tier / class of implants, perhaps.
HG sets without attribute bonuses would be nice, too.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29933
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 12:15:31 -
[54] - Quote
unnecessary suck factor, mostly.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29933
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 12:19:30 -
[55] - Quote
yeah I edited that to include a suggestion for pirate sets that didn't have attribute bonuses.
The nice ones, though... the HGs with +4 are perfect for high sec lurkers, was my main point.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29933
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 12:24:43 -
[56] - Quote
For starters, a responsible thing to do for the ignorant new players is set their attributes to Charisma:empty, and the other four categories leveled out. I don't know what starter characters' attributes look like nowadays.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29933
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 12:30:46 -
[57] - Quote
So with a +4 set across the board, they're at 24 out of a possible 32... 3/4 or 75% efficiency. Not a bad start. Cybernetics IV, 100 mil for the +4s. meh. I've used +4s in my 100 mil SP mains forever.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29936
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 13:52:36 -
[58] - Quote
1 or 2 for me, 3 on a couple.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29937
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 14:28:17 -
[59] - Quote
There are some huge scrublords out there.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29937
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 14:32:52 -
[60] - Quote
Tia, just so you know, I'm not sure why you're being grilled for wanting a change that makes your gameplay better.
Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29938
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 14:57:48 -
[61] - Quote
EVE players like to tout the concept of rookies getting within striking distance of vets, but I don't think it's as true as people think. After participating in this thread, my feelings about the utility curve of characters has changed, to worse than before. And yeah, there's still some residual disparity in SP accumulation even after the removal of learning skills.
You have these vets who are skilling at full clip, with a lot of prereqs already under their belt, while new characters still have to train Cybernetics to IV or V and then come up with the ISK for attribute implants.
I already know the next order of business for changes is skill prereqs that are V, when they could be I or III. T2 ship prereqs, in particular. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they're some of the worst offenders of placing a time wall in front of characters.
Anyway. If the goal is to allow new characters to hit the ground running at the same speed as vet characters, variable attributes have to go. Implants, though, I think should stay, as a modification of base attributes.
I know it seems like I'm simply repeating myself, but I'm just arriving at the same conclusion after considering new arguments made in the thread.
Remaps are just awkward. I won't ever miss them if they go away. Variation by attribute is preserved (and there's still a reason to list them on skills) if we keep attribute implants.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29938
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 15:15:23 -
[62] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:The "wall" in front of T2 ships is not as much of an issue because you can do pretty much all roles in T1 now unlike before where logi work was pretty much T2 cruisers or don't bother. The funny point about these change is the worst offender for this is still the most painful because to use T2 logistics you pretty much need to skill it to IV and have the very vast majority of the related support skill at V for it to even work. I like that part, though. So I don't see why not allow players to have T2 ships with **** skills.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29942
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 01:38:49 -
[63] - Quote
why CCPees wouldn't be able to stomach these debates, I have no idea.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29947
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:03:24 -
[64] - Quote
If you are explaining why the learning system sucks, the person is in denial. And will probably stay that way.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29947
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:07:51 -
[65] - Quote
most of the naysayers seem to admit it doesn't affect them, and then say some bit about an imaginary theme park.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29949
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 19:15:44 -
[66] - Quote
The Newface wrote:I guess IGÇÖm going to give up arguing this with a final reflection.
It seems most people who are for this suggestion is actually looking to make it easier/faster to get into big ships. I get the district feeling that these people would be happy if there were no skills at all.
There are many many games like that already, there is only one EVE though and I hope CCP understands how damaging this direction would be for the subscription rates.
The simpler a game is the less longevity it have, EVE is one of the oldest MMOGÇÖs and one of the reasons, a big one I believe is that you always have something to strive for and something to learn. Take that away and EVE will lose its appeal and yes I know, doom and gloom but I believe die.
check yourself. some of the people in this discussion have everything trained, and are not lobbying in self interest.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29950
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 00:05:35 -
[67] - Quote
I'm not stuck on the absolute rate of SP, only relative. If the max rate is the only rate, that's fine. It would be liberating.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29951
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 01:34:10 -
[68] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I'm not stuck on the absolute rate of SP, only relative. If the max rate is the only rate, that's fine. It would be liberating. I can't really disagree with that idea, but as a system it seems lacking. It removes any interaction with the system itself aside from building a sequential list, even if that interaction is a source of consternation for some. I said that knowing CCP is not going to remove learning implants. They're available for everyone, so the mechanic is accessible, and rather quickly. On top of that, Cybernetics has other uses beyond learning implants.
No way they're uprooting learning implants. The industry, the gameplay, depth of the mechanic. It's the unnatural bits that need to be ironed out.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29952
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 03:59:36 -
[69] - Quote
You don't have to explain consequence, we know what it is. The problem with this particular consequence is the prevailing logic that makes most players stay inside, and EVE is less active as a result.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29952
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 04:51:37 -
[70] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:Rain6637 wrote:You don't have to explain consequence, we know what it is. The problem with this particular consequence is the prevailing logic that makes most players stay inside, and EVE is less active as a result. Which is by result the same logic such players use in RL to avoid conflict.....whether its abuse by law enforcement, their friend being beaten to death at a bar, or the next door neighbor getting robbed.........they still will never undock. If I got locked into my pajamas for 18 hours whenever I wanted to wear them to sleep, I probably wouldn't go out as much or to as many places. If I got locked into professional clothes for 18 hours whenever I wanted to go outside, I would probably be uncomfortable when I slept in them.
So what's the solution here: let me swap in and out of my clothes when I'm at home (docked). That way my sleep activities don't influence my awake activities.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29953
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 08:20:50 -
[71] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:99% of the posts are "I must maximise because of :reasons: but I don't like the downsides of this so instead of making an informed decision and accepting possible consequences to my choices I'll go whine about how CCP should just remove consequences and choice altogether, and I'll use amazing explanations for it to make that sound logical in a game like EVE".
read this very carefully:
You may be right.
You may be so right about so many people that their collective decision making is slowing EVE's pace of gameplay.
The ideal of making EVE hard is valid. The reality is it's not conducive to gameplay.
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