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A call for the outlaw of projectile weapons.

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Tyranne Amarr InterMind Unlimited Ekliptika	Posted - 2006.09.29 09:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Tyranne on 29/09/2006 09:45:06 As an engineer-turned-capsuleer, I approach what I see in the depths of space with a more scientific mind than many other battle-hardened capsuleers. One aspect of zero-G combat that I've always been curious about is the fate of the ammunition expelled from autocannons and artillery. It goes without saying that an accurate placement of said shot will result in the ammo hitting it's target and thus combusting or dissolving. However, what happens to the large amount of ammo that doens't hit it's mark? Well, after recalling the basic laws of physics established decades ago, I theorized that if a bullet shot at any variable speed misses it's mark, it should continue to travel at that high velocity until a force of gravity (like from a planet, moon, or other heavenly body) acts upon it and changes it's vector. To test this theory, I took a few minutes to read up on the operation of a small artillery cannon, and fitted one to my Executioner-class frigate, loading it with ammuniton that I specially modified to contain small probes that would send back a wealth of data concerning it's speed, location, and other vital statistics. Unforuntately the data collection segment of the test was interrupted by the scum in Eternal Empire, although that is beside the point. After activating my clone, regaining my bearings, and salvaging what was left of my ship's memory banks, I analyzed the data and saw that it agreed with my original hypothesis - the 5 shots that I fired in several different directions each traveled for no less than 200,000 KM before being acted upon by outside forces. Two of the bullets traveled as far as 34.5 AU! This brings me to the central point of this essay. Projectile weapons, while effective at doing their job, are dangerous to the whole of society of EVE. Ammunition expelled in a firefight has the potential to travel very long distances, possibly colliding with ships, stations, pods, or even radioactive / explosive material being moved through space. Non-combat personel, passenger freighters, civillian residences, and basically all that exists in space can fall victim to stray gunfire, resulting in devastating and unnessesary loss. This is why I call for the banning of projectile weapons for use outside of planetary spheres of influence. Other turret systems, such as lasers and hybrid systems, don't suffer from the same potential for collateral damage. I also realize the political ramifications of this call. The Minmatar Republic has established itself as the primary user of projectile-based weaponry. It would be unfair to strip this great republic of it's primary means of defense without a means to compensate. That is why I also propose that the Amarr, Caldari, and Galliente federations contribute to the Minmatar Republic to provide them with weaponry equal to the projectile weapons they'd lose in the passing of this ban. Doing this should NOT be considered a penalty to anyone, but instead a universe-wide crusade to make the residents of this world safe from this very real threat.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.29 09:58:00 - [2] Originally by: Tyranne the 5 shots that I fired in several different directions each traveled for no less than 200,000 KM before being acted upon by outside forces. Two of the bullets traveled as far as 34.5 AU! Im curious as to how long you had to wait for the results of the projectiles that flew 34.5 AU as well as how you where able to fit all the required equipment into a single small charge, while the average spaceship is unable to scan beyond 14 au. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Tyranne Amarr InterMind Unlimited Ekliptika	Posted - 2006.09.29 10:10:00 - [3] Edited by: Tyranne on 29/09/2006 10:12:42 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Tyranne the 5 shots that I fired in several different directions each traveled for no less than 200,000 KM before being acted upon by outside forces. Two of the bullets traveled as far as 34.5 AU! Im curious as to how long you had to wait for the results of the projectiles that flew 34.5 AU as well as how you where able to fit all the required equipment into a single small charge, while the average spaceship is unable to scan beyond 14 au. As I said, the ammunition was fitted with special equipment. A simple transmitter was all that was needed to track the bullets, so it was fairly simple to fit it into the shells. However, I failed to mention that I fit a custom module to my ship to track the bullets. Since each of the samples emited a very distinctive signature, the bullets would have been in tracking range for aproxamately 60 AU, although I doubt they would have ever made it that far. I wish I could present the module itself to you, but as I said I the ship itself was destroyed, along with most of the module in question. As for the 34.5 AU, that was my mistake, and I apoligize. I meant to say "3.45 AU". After seeing that error (and thank you for pointing that out), I thought of how absurd it must sound to have a bullet travel that far, and having waited to see the results. Anyway, I conducted this experiment over 373 days, or slightly more than a year's time. This caused the experiment to go on for FAR longer than I had hoped or anticipated, but in the pursuit of science, sometimes one must make sacrifices. I'll be correcting the AU figure in my report above. Thanks again for catching that glaring error.
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.09.29 10:19:00 - [4] All well and good, but... I really do doubt that the risks of stray shots hitting anything to be pretty small. I certainly have never registered any such hits (not counting claimed "stray shots" by Star Fraction combat personnel, I know exactly how stray those shots were...), and certainly even a capsule hit by such a shot will have no problem weathering the impact. As for the distance travelled by expelled ammunition, that is of no real consequence. Already after a few thousand kilometres you'll have to be on board a Titan to present any kind of probable target. A greater concern would be combat in densely populated areas, where stray shots might only have to travel a few kilometres to hit something it is not supposed to. And at that range, the problem is common to all kinds of weaponry, not least of which smartbombs and lasers.
Evanda Char Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.09.29 11:29:00 - [5] Shock. Horror. An Amarr is calling for a ban on the very weapons we use to defend our space. Good thing she's only interested in the benefit of humanity, eh? I mean, there can't be any ulterior motives in that, can there? Re-Awakened Technologies Inc "That looks interesting... Let's nick it!
Eno Matterre	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:22:00 - [6] Space, in general, is a big EMPTY place. I don't know what they teach you at Amarrian schools and what kind of engineer you are, but my professors at Todaki once did a rough estimate of a stray shell hitting another ship thousands of kilometers away. Needless to say it was a very slim chance. Also, the fact that it is the preferred weapon of the Matari people doesn't make your arguments anymore convincing. In short, I advise not to use science and technology discussions as a means of gettning the upper hand in a conflict, ever.
Sieesa Amarr Liberated	Posted - 2006.09.29 12:54:00 - [7] I fully support this idea...<laughs> ban every last one of those terrible weapons of mass destruction....it's simply horrible to imagine how many lives could be destroyed if these weapons are allowed to exist for any longer. Think of how many Matari lives we <the Amarrian Empire> could save if they were stripped of their cruel devices. <laughs again> Yes, I fully endorse this idea....and as for the Amarrian "contribution" for replacing such weapons....we would be more than happy to take any number of them under our protection....this would eliminate the need for a replacement weapon as they would have the full force of the Amarrian "right" to defend against any hostilities....<laughs hysterically> <can barely manage to end the transmission....> Sieesa Morgan. My Pain Is Legion
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:37:00 - [8] Rail guns work the same way. You going to ban those too? In rust we trust!!!
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:47:00 - [9] Yes, and undetonated warheads that have run out of rocket fuel. You are delusional, Ms. Tyranne. The only weapons that don't run the "risk" of collateral damage are lasers (which dissipate) and correctly calibrated drones. All hail the mighty 'geddon!
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Luna Rossa Corporation The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.29 15:59:00 - [10] Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 29/09/2006 16:00:45 I hate to stomp over your ridiculous theory, but space is big and empty. VERY big and empty. Perhaps overuse of the warp drive has robbed you of memory of this fact, but to say that space is big and empty is to understate massively. Spaceships travel between planets, moons and stargates at many times the speed of light. The chance of a projectile moving even at hypersonic speed (which projectiles fired from most Minmatar projectile cannons cannot acheive - I myself commonly use their ships and weapons) being at precisely the correct point to intersect the line between two planetary orbits at precisely the correct moment to impact with a ship is so miniscule that you'd probably need several miles of holographic billboard to express it in a 1/n odds system. Besides, the most likely thing that will happen to a stray projectile is that it will, as you say, get attracted to the gravity well of something (moon, planet, star, etc.) and either impact with it harmlessly or burn up in the atmosphere - harmlessly. No need to panic.
Roy Gordon	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:04:00 - [11] I would like to add that the risk of being hit by projectile weapons is about the same as being hit by meteor's. Your shields should protect you against any known projectile.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien Minmatar Blood Inquisition	Posted - 2006.09.29 16:15:00 - [12] Every different type of ammo is dangerous to some respect. It's ammo, deary; it's what it's there for. I'd personally say, the only projectile ammo you have to worry about is my BC-3 shotgun.
Tyranne Amarr InterMind Unlimited Ekliptika	Posted - 2006.09.29 22:02:00 - [13] Alright, I concede, the banning of such weapons would make no large impact on the whole of society. I was called upon by the Imperial Academy over a year ago to create a report to harm the Minmatar Republic that was somehow scientific in nature. After I refused, they threatened to pull not only my funding, but my research position and certification within the academy if I didn't fulfill their request. I fully realize that the danger of stray ammunition is miniscule at best, and there are other dangers much greater than a wayward charge that capuleers have to worry about. I spent an entire year trying to come up with something that the academy could use, but sadly this is the zenith of my assignment. I made the wrong choice, and if complying with the empire means that I'm forced to publish and stand behind rubbish like that, then it's not worth being part of it. The next step was that the academy and then the empire would call for the projectile ban, leading into a "justified" invasion of the Minmatar Republic. With the exposure of this plan, I doubt there will be any pursuit of the rest of the scheme. Considering that I had to become very drunk to put aside my integrity and common sense to write the report, it should have told me that this was a bad idea from the start. Though I anticipate facing the wrath of the academy, I feel that this is the best thing to do.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.30 01:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Murukan Rail guns work the same way. You going to ban those too? After being fired, railgun shells don't last terribly long before losing magnetic containment and incinerating themselves. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.09.30 03:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Murukan Rail guns work the same way. You going to ban those too? After being fired, railgun shells don't last terribly long before losing magnetic containment and incinerating themselves. That's blasters. Rails should theoretically travel forever.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.30 03:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Murukan Rail guns work the same way. You going to ban those too? After being fired, railgun shells don't last terribly long before losing magnetic containment and incinerating themselves. That's blasters. Rails should theoretically travel forever. No, I'm talking about railguns. The charges are filled with ionized plasma. The electrical energy used to fire them disrupts the magnetic field used to contain the plasma within the shell casing, so after being fired, if they don't hit anything, they lose magentic containment and breach the shell casing relatively quickly. My engineer estimates that they completely disintegrate and the plasma dissipates within a few thousand kilometers. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Jack Quadros Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.30 04:04:00 - [17] Magnetic containment of the charge in a hybrid shell should be completely lost within a range of 1,500-2,000 kilometers, give or take two hundred. Hybrid charges, next to laser weaponry, are the safest way to go when dealing with combat that may result in crossfire.
Jon Engel APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2006.09.30 04:06:00 - [18] Well, since we are all throwing out facts here. Railguns, that are widely available on the open market are improperly classified. Truth be told, they are Gauss Guns. I assume it's just lumping an entire family of weaponry into a single group and giving them a generic term. On that note, projectile weaponry on most ships is controlled by autoloaders, and tracking computers that make sure they do not misfire a shot or unload shots without a viable target. Projectile guns stop firing immediately after the target is obliterated, as is the design by the ship manufacturers. Noone wants to waste ammo in a capitalist universe.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.30 04:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Murukan Rail guns work the same way. You going to ban those too? After being fired, railgun shells don't last terribly long before losing magnetic containment and incinerating themselves. That's blasters. Rails should theoretically travel forever. When your frigate hits something 200km away with an antimatter shell fired from a railgun, be sure to let me know. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.30 04:31:00 - [20] Edited by: Murukan on 30/09/2006 04:31:03 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Murukan Rail guns work the same way. You going to ban those too? After being fired, railgun shells don't last terribly long before losing magnetic containment and incinerating themselves. That's blasters. Rails should theoretically travel forever. When your frigate hits something 200km away with an antimatter shell fired from a railgun, be sure to let me know. When your frig hits something 200km away with an emp or fusion round from an arty be sure and let me know, you tit. In rust we trust!!!
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.09.30 04:35:00 - [21] You could do it, you'd just need a whole lot of CPU power to calculate compensations for the real forces that you have to deal with. Way more than any battleship currently has to spare. In a frictionless environment, which doesn't necessarily exist in space (gases and such), that rail would travel forever. If I'm wrong, some physicist please correct me.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.30 05:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Jon Engel Well, since we are all throwing out facts here. Railguns, that are widely available on the open market are improperly classified. Truth be told, they are Gauss Guns. I assume it's just lumping an entire family of weaponry into a single group and giving them a generic term. Hmm. The guns on my ships are build around two long, straight, electrified conductors that pass a current across the projectile. Isn't that a railgun? Originally by: Jon Engel On that note, projectile weaponry on most ships is controlled by autoloaders, and tracking computers that make sure they do not misfire a shot or unload shots without a viable target. Projectile guns stop firing immediately after the target is obliterated, as is the design by the ship manufacturers. Noone wants to waste ammo in a capitalist universe. That's all true, but it doesn't keep rounds from missing the target. The guns don't open up until the computer has a firing solution, but there's no guarantee that the firing solution is perfect, or that the rounds won't simply go off-course enough to miss. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Arushia Nova Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.30 06:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Tyranne This brings me to the central point of this essay. Projectile weapons, while effective at doing their job, are dangerous to the whole of society of EVE. Ammunition expelled in a firefight has the potential to travel very long distances, possibly colliding with ships, stations, pods, or even radioactive / explosive material being moved through space. Non-combat personel, passenger freighters, civillian residences, and basically all that exists in space can fall victim to stray gunfire, resulting in devastating and unnessesary loss. No more of a hazard than naturally-occuring meteorites, which are common enough that all space-worthy ships, structures, and even cargo containers are hardened against them. Large pieces of debris from destroyed ships are more of a hazard than stray projectile rounds.
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.30 07:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Arushia No more of a hazard than naturally-occuring meteorites, which are common enough that all space-worthy ships, structures, and even cargo containers are hardened against them. Large pieces of debris from destroyed ships are more of a hazard than stray projectile rounds. Have you ever seen a meteorite with a nuclear payload? --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! byahahahahaha!11 Sig Pwnt - Immy
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.30 10:21:00 - [25] Nikolai don't lie you don't use rails. You're caldari which means you're packing missles, and 10 ecm modules, with 5 damps on a raven! In rust we trust!!!
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.30 10:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia When your frigate hits something 200km away with an antimatter shell fired from a railgun, be sure to let me know. That's a different issue. Lack of accuracy, among other factors, makes a turret shot effectively impossible way before the real flight time of the shell is expired. Only missiles are guided, but only until their fuel is expended. If a bullet isn't stopped, it might theorically hit someone thousands or even millions of kilometers away, but the chance is so astronomically low that it is a useless information for warfare. In fact, it's not even a security hazard, which is the point of the Tyranne's apology (for which I respect her). Quote: No more of a hazard than naturally-occuring meteorites, which are common enough that all space-worthy ships, structures, and even cargo containers are hardened against them. Large pieces of debris from destroyed ships are more of a hazard than stray projectile rounds. If you got hit by a stray shot, which is practically impossible, you would suffer considerable damage. Railgun shots travel at relativistic speeds, and projectiles have payloads. Meteorites have neither of these traits. A ship's tritanium hull can easily deflect an average meteorite traveling at a few hundred km/s; not so easily if the object is traveling at a hundred thousands km/s, or if it will detonate a small nuke on impact!
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.30 11:00:00 - [27] Edited by: Za Po on 30/09/2006 11:02:31 My thoughts on weapons' theorical ranges: Nikolai explained why railgun shots don't travel very far. I am rather expert on railgun ammo, having designed and developed my own brand of Javelin-class ammunition, and I confirm what he said. I know more than a bit about missiles as well. They self-detonate once they're out of fuel, because at that point they are useless. They would miss a small ship, and are unable to counter a big ship's shield compensation. However, I am entirely ignorant of projectile and artillery weaponry. I think I could design shells that self-detonate after a fixed time. Maybe some brands of ammunition already does that? What about lasers? I don't know too much about those either, but lasers used for scientific purposes can maintain coherency for much more than a few thousand kilometers. Maybe military lasers sacrifice coherency for additional short-range power (given that due to accuracy they are worthless beyond a few hundred kilometers anyway)? edit: drones, of course, are another matter entirely. Ranges have to be designed into them. From what I know, this is indeed a matter of security more than anything else. Rogue drones are enough of a problem already, without giving them modern-age weapons as well.
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.09.30 11:41:00 - [28] Edited by: Tatsue Nuko on 30/09/2006 11:41:24 Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Have you ever seen a meteorite with a nuclear payload? Have you seen what a grain of sand will do if it strikes any normal, non-purposebuilt structure at speeds allowing interplanetary travels? Ain't pretty. Of course, we shall also be happy that the containment of rail and blaster "projectiles" loses coherence so fast. There you'd just need a stray atom core and whoah what a pretty flash it'll make of what it hits. (In other words, don't underestimate pure momentum when comparing to something as mundane as a nuke.)
Eno Matterre	Posted - 2006.09.30 12:24:00 - [29] This discussion went way away from it's point. Tyranne, congratulations on a successful realization what politics are all about. The fact that you exposed your true intentions and motives earns you a bit of credit, although you are in for quite a beating from your beloved empire's authorities. Also, capsule pilots usually are proficient in engineering, mechanics and sometimes advanced science, so it's no wonder everybody objected to what you originally posted right away. Unfortunately, there are people willing to believe that report. Others might be bribed to back it up. You should carefully choose who you work for next time. Preferably go freelance.
Pericles Maranhao Caldari Fatalix Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.30 14:00:00 - [30] The chances of hitting something by mistake in the vast distances of space are very slim. Also, you're suggesting the Amarr give new weapons to the Minmatar? Please...

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