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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Glenda en Welle
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.02.17 15:24:51 -
[1] - Quote
So I finally got done training my t2 Autocannons for my Machariel and I was so excited to bring on the dps and melt some ships. But the part of space I'm in seems to get mostly Blood Raiders and Sansha which are all weak to EM damage. I throw on my 1200 dps hail ammo and start mowing into them only to see i do less damage with t2 guns and t2 ammo >_> is this some how by design that my t1 ammo is actually better than t2 sometimes because that really really sucks. Or am i just a moron missing something important ( it does happen I'm not infalable) |
erg cz
Tribal Core
138
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Posted - 2015.02.17 15:27:19 -
[2] - Quote
HTFU and use Dominix :) |
Glenda en Welle
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.02.17 15:35:32 -
[3] - Quote
Maybe if my 4million sp in gunnery switched places with my 1.5 million sp in drones that would be a good idea :/ till then I'm more worried about whether the game really made t1 ammo better than t2 ammo in this situation |
Antillie Sa'Kan
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
913
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Posted - 2015.02.17 15:36:57 -
[4] - Quote
Load EMP. T2 ammo is specialized and not always suitable for every situation. Your T2 guns will still do 2-10% more DPS due to the T2 spec skill.
Or try running missions against Angels. |
Glenda en Welle
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.02.17 15:41:54 -
[5] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Load EMP. T2 ammo is specialized and not always suitable for every situation. Your T2 guns will still do 2-10% more DPS due to the T2 spec skill.
Or try running missions against Angels.
Thanks so its just what I thought that t2 ammo is more expensive and better just not always better. I'll admit personally I feel like upgrading ammo should upgrade damage but I guess this is one of those situations where common sense goes out the window thanks |
Antillie Sa'Kan
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
914
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Posted - 2015.02.17 17:13:33 -
[6] - Quote
Well Barrage is great for mid range PVP and great for PVE against things that are weak to explosive damage. Hail is perfect for shooting at a large target up close.
T2 ammo types have roles, just like T2 ships. T1 ammo still has its place. It tracks better and in the case of projectiles allows for damage type selection. There is a lot more to ammo than how much damage it deals. Range and tracking count for just as much, sometimes even more than raw damage. |
BigWolfUK
Sons-of-Liberty
8
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Posted - 2015.02.17 17:40:53 -
[7] - Quote
And tbf, in 90% of PvE situations, T1 ammo is more than enough, and extra isk spent on faction/t2 is not worth it But those T2 guns + T1 ammo will still do more than T1 guns + T1 ammo, so the skill training is not wasted by any means |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
182
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Posted - 2015.02.17 20:25:26 -
[8] - Quote
Glenda en Welle wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Load EMP. T2 ammo is specialized and not always suitable for every situation. Your T2 guns will still do 2-10% more DPS due to the T2 spec skill.
Or try running missions against Angels. Thanks so its just what I thought that t2 ammo is more expensive and better just not always better. I'll admit personally I feel like upgrading ammo should upgrade damage but I guess this is one of those situations where common sense goes out the window thanks
T2 ammo has its trade offs higher dps but you can't select what dmg type you deal along with worste tracking/range most of the time.
also you would be doing more dmg with the t2 ammo if you weren't hitting a 80-90% resist on those ships where there em resist is 20-30% |
Orlacc
798
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Posted - 2015.02.17 20:35:08 -
[9] - Quote
Large Autocannon Specialization trained up? Kind of mandatory with T2.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1006
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Posted - 2015.02.17 23:03:39 -
[10] - Quote
just use EMP L
wouldn't bother with faction ammo on a mach either it chews through it too fast. |
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Glenda en Welle
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.02.18 16:13:38 -
[11] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:Large Autocannon Specialization trained up? Kind of mandatory with T2. That being said, the only T2 I use on my Mach is Barrage. Faction rat specific otherwise. Of course I do I wouldn't fly around in something I'm not skilled up in :D |
servalaan
20
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:26:04 -
[12] - Quote
Mach usually relies somewhat on a speed tank, so invariably it ismoving pretty quick. Hail has 25% reduced falloff, 50% reduced optimal range and 30% reduced tracking speed, which means you 'more or less' have to be sat on top of the ship you want to shoot and have it (and you) moving slowly enough for your guns to track it, only then will you begin to apply that '1200' dps.
If pinocchio told you his nose was about to grow, what would happen?
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
57
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Posted - 2015.02.19 07:03:03 -
[13] - Quote
both hail and barrage produced kin and exp damages and zero therm and em, that's the only problem.
emp and plasma would be your primary choice agains blood raiders and sansha. |
Ambusher Ituin
Roughneck Raiders
5
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Posted - 2015.02.20 20:41:39 -
[14] - Quote
A corp mate had similar problems. All were solved by switching to Republic Fleet EMP. It does more damage than T2 ammo against NPCs with low EM defenses and it's cheaper ( GǪ or less expensive ) |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1019
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Posted - 2015.02.21 01:40:33 -
[15] - Quote
pretty sure faction ammo is almost 5x as expensive as T2 |
Ambusher Ituin
Roughneck Raiders
5
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Posted - 2015.02.21 02:04:02 -
[16] - Quote
Sure. RF EMP l is 2x Quake and 5X Tremor.
Corp mate makes his own EMP L and upgrades it at the LP Store. When factoring in travel time to a main trade hub to get a decent price, he figures he's saving money.
YMMV
Don't panic now GǪ there'll be plenty of time to do that later.
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ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
590
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Posted - 2015.02.21 02:48:01 -
[17] - Quote
If you use lasers you don't even have to build anything all you have to do is keep looting the missions and you will easily get enough ammo to turn into faction to sustain you....then again you have a Mach not a paladin lol. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1020
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Posted - 2015.02.21 03:32:23 -
[18] - Quote
Ambusher Ituin wrote:Sure. RF EMP l is 2x Quake and 5X Tremor.
Corp mate makes his own EMP L and upgrades it at the LP Store. When factoring in travel time to a main trade hub to get a decent price, he figures he's saving money.
YMMV
Then you're paying out LP for very suboptimal item payouts. So in fact he's losing money. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2259
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Posted - 2015.02.21 04:54:55 -
[19] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:just use EMP L
wouldn't bother with faction ammo on a mach either it chews through it too fast.
When I ran missions that was eventually my answer. Unless I refit arties; I kept a few rounds around to blitz Scarlet and one other mission iirc. |
Sturmwolke
636
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Posted - 2015.02.21 10:13:31 -
[20] - Quote
If you're a missioning newbie, always do ballpark estimation of the EFFECTIVE damage done vs NPC you're shooting. Taking paper dps literally is a very common mistake that players make. Paper dps does not account several factors like target resists, hit quality (which depends on speed, sig, distance, weapon tracking) and etc.
There are several data dumps out there with details of the NPC ships. Use it. e.g. http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php
From there, you can either manually run simple calculation on dmg done. Alternatively, if you run EFT/Pyfa, just build a dummy config with 1 local rep and similar resists profile (proper ratio is more important than exact numbers) to your target NPC and test the appropiate projectile/laser/hybrid/missile ammo profile on its defence rating to get the ballpark effectiveness. |
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
48077
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Posted - 2015.02.21 20:44:04 -
[21] - Quote
Ambusher Ituin wrote:A corp mate had similar problems. All were solved by switching to Republic Fleet EMP. It does more damage than T2 ammo against NPCs with low EM defenses and it's cheaper ( GǪ or less expensive ) Agree 100%
I don't understand why players fitting up top level weapons insist on using bottom level munitions. All they're doing is making it take longer to destroy the targets which in turn costs them more ISK in the long run.
I run with both T2 and Faction munitions in my Cargohold. Mainly I use Barrage on most medium and small hull ship class at first to help clear out incoming DPS. Then after getting into close orbit on main targets I shut down prop mod and apply Hail.
If that doesn't produce the required DPS then I reload with damage specific Faction munitions, especially if the target has high resists.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Nalia White
Tencus
81
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Posted - 2015.02.22 23:29:40 -
[22] - Quote
i don't know about you guys but i just take the t1 non faction emp, fusion or plasma ammo for missioning... if you run missions you want to make money and the cost of faction ammo will make you less profit, even with 10% more damage... |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1410
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 11:43:53 -
[23] - Quote
Nalia White wrote:i don't know about you guys but i just take the t1 non faction emp, fusion or plasma ammo for missioning... if you run missions you want to make money and the cost of faction ammo will make you less profit, even with 10% more damage...
10% more damage = less incoming damage over time so safer and potentailly a smaller tank and even more DPS
More importantly it also = 10% faster completion for the combat. In level IVs once you are blitzing for LP 10% faster ship kills translates to a lot more ISK per hour. Getting an extra mission in per hour will more than compensate for the extra cost. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1028
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 19:17:56 -
[24] - Quote
yes, in fact in almost all situations using faction ammo means more profit. Just in this particular situation where you are using a mach which fires extremely quickly and also the damage being overkill most of the time makes faction ammo questionable. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
969
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Posted - 2015.02.23 20:49:52 -
[25] - Quote
faction ammo is +15% over t1. in most cases it is worth it, on a mach maybe a bit more questionable. now for some math. With 800mm acs, lv5 skills, and a t2 rof rig, the duration on guns is 2.963secs (I'm just rounding to 3), so 7 guns firing every 3 seconds is 2.33 rounds/second. Faction ammo is usually 1100-1200 isk/round, I used the upper bound. so sitting around shooting continuously for an hour would cost about 10 mil isk. Another assumption that when running missions you are firing about half the time, would say that faction ammo costs about 5mil per hour. So if that 15% dps increase makes you more than 5mil/hour difference in income it is worth it. Maybe add a bit of a bump for transportation and holding costs, but I'm not going there for the purposes of this post.
and if we switch to an arty mach with a ~15s rof, the cost drops to ~1mil hour with similar assumptions.
ACs have some of the lowest overkill potential, just don't group all the guns together. I usually go 1/2/2/2, or 2/2/3.
@ChainsawPlankto
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
441
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Posted - 2015.03.20 17:16:47 -
[26] - Quote
Glenda en Welle wrote: Thanks so its just what I thought that t2 ammo is more expensive and better just not always better. I'll admit personally I feel like upgrading ammo should upgrade damage but I guess this is one of those situations where common sense goes out the window thanks
Not sure where you got that idea. The CCP devs have always said that they want hard decisions to have to be made in this game. Everything is supposed to have trade offs so that you need to make decisions and sacrifices.
This game is very deep and situations where thing A is always better than thing B are intentionally avoided.
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