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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.05 18:47:00 -
[31]
Edited by: WarlockX on 05/10/2006 18:48:53
Originally by: Phoenix Lonestar His friend gives him 1b isk for free. Not $50 for 200m.
There's a difference.
Ok, well what if my friend is poor and im rich. And after he gives me 1b isk. I give him 200$.
I happends all the time, my friends do me favours.. I might take them out to dinner or thank them in other ways. Same effect!
So in essence you're trying to say it's ok for friends but not for "business partners" Life isn't as black or white as you try to make it.
"I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." |
Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.05 18:48:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sosus Red Edited by: Sosus Red on 05/10/2006 18:31:30
Originally by: Locke DieDrake You asked...
I think station exchange is going to ruin online MMO gaming as we know it. It'll take a few years but it will happen.
It's an attempt by a money grubbing enterprise to ring every last cent of "profit" they can. From a service that is already wildly profitable.
Micro transactions and market place connected games are the end of "gaming" and the start of something else. It won't be long before most games are connected to a micro transaction system that requires actual money to progress thru the game.
When did it become acceptable to charge for this stuff?
Once apun a time you could buy a game and OWN it. Once apon a time you could install from the CD and actually play the game from start to finish. (I dare you to take any EA Pc game and try that) Once apon a time you didn't have to pay real money for in game items. There was even a breif window (right now) where that stuff is mostly optional.
Microsoft and sony are trying very hard to push the gaming world into a "pay as you go" system. Which will invariably make the already spendy pass time More expensive. And eventually, the games won't even be worth the time much less the money. (you could say thats true for most games already)
I once thought I would never pay for a game monthly. That obviously changed. But I think I can safely say that if the "next gen" revolution revolves around my credit card, I'll pass.
I can see your point, but then what about the guy who cant play EVE very often but still wants to know what its like to fly a Caldari Navy Raven. He cant do countless mission for the hundreds of thousands of LP, but he does have an extra $50. invariably, you arent going to progress very far in this game without commiting a lot of time in it. TO some people, time is as valuable as money. Some people have more time to spend, some people have more money.
Again, im not for or against, just presenting arguments because I think this needs to be discussed.
And you've hit on the one distinction that makes me ok with RMT. And that is...
If it's ENTIRELY optional. Where nothing you could get in game has a for cash only version. If people want to use real money to buy a raven then I actually don't have a problem with that. As long as real money isn't REQUIRED to buy a raven.
(damn, I just had this massive sense of deja vu. I think I've had this discussion before).
I work hard, and I make better than average money at my job. Thats not to brag, it's to point out that I have extra money lying around that I could use to buy in game items if I so choose.
I don't. I play eve from the perspective that it is a free time waster. Nothing more. And I also think that if I can't "earn" what I want thru the in game mechanics, then I guess I just am not good enough to have it. There is something to be said for putting in effort to get rewards. If you can't find the time to grind missions or whatever to pay for you first BS, then maybe you don't need a BS. Maybe...
The problem with an "optional" RMT system is that you lower the bar for uber items. If you throw down 100$ for a titan, everyone would have one. A) because 100$ isn't much to an adult player, and B) because some twit would get bored with it and sell it for isk at cut rate.
And no game that offers official RMT is going to say "no you can't have a titan because we don't want to spawn a lot of those". Thats entirely contrary to the attitude that would lead to RMT in the fist place. (profiteering)
I am against RMT in eve. And in games in general. But I can discuss it without pulling out the flame thrower. Mostly. Basicly, don't take my abrasiveness for hostility. It's not hostility towards you or anyone else, I'm just an "angry" person. ;D
___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.05 18:50:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sosus Red I can see your point, but then what about the guy who cant play EVE very often but still wants to know what its like to fly a Caldari Navy Raven.
He has to pass on the Navy Raven. Sorry but Online Games are not designed to bring all content to casual players. You can buy single players games where you can see and have everything.
I'm strongly against a service like station exchange. If a company starts to support what turns a game into a world where I have to calculate real life money in, I'll drop their game becaue it's not a game anymore.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.05 18:53:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sosus Red
I agree wholehearteldy!!! BUt stating we dont like something and wont participate in it wont make it go away. As long as people are greedy, or ummm....business minded, people will be thinking of ways to make more money. Im more of a socialist type person personally, but I dont think we can fight the future.
We probably aren't going to win, but I can sure as hell fight.
On the off chance that enough people follow suit, we will have won. Now, I'm not stupid, I know thats not going to happen. But I'm still going to wage my little one man war.
Nothing I can forsee would convince me to buy a Xbox 360 or a PS3. Nothing. And nothing I've ever seen made me want to spend my money on virtual products in a game.
But, alas, I'm in the minority. RMT and micro transactions are wildly popular. I think this correlates directly with the average IQ of the people involved, but I can't prove it.
___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
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WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.05 18:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Sosus Red I can see your point, but then what about the guy who cant play EVE very often but still wants to know what its like to fly a Caldari Navy Raven.
He has to pass on the Navy Raven. Sorry but Online Games are not designed to bring all content to casual players. You can buy single players games where you can see and have everything.
I'm strongly against a service like station exchange. If a company starts to support what turns a game into a world where I have to calculate real life money in, I'll drop their game becaue it's not a game anymore.
I think the point you're missing tho, is more often then not you're not playing to get anything you're just mindlessly wasting time.
"spend this much time mining" is no diffrent then saying "spend this much money" For alot of ppl time is money, they'd rather spend money to play the game, rather then spend time. In essence mining isn't playing it's working off the right to play. "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.05 18:55:00 -
[36]
That's because mining is boring. In the perfect game there shouldn't be boring things you have to do to advance.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar Pragmatics
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Posted - 2006.10.05 18:56:00 -
[37]
If a company introduces station exchange because it can't police out of game sales, it's a sad thing. I realise it's impossible to stop this happening, but they should at least try.
If a company introduces station exchange because it wants to take a cut of the cash, then they're evil. The poor are discriminated against, and weak-willed idiots with lots of disposable income (like me) are tempted to spend their cash on virtual swag.
Either way it's a bad thing, IMO.
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Ukucia
Gallente The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.05 19:01:00 -
[38]
I played on one of the EQ2 exchange servers. With all the screaming about the "Death of MMOGs!!!" on the EQ2 boards, I just had to be part of something that big.
Playing on the exchange servers was not very different than playing on the regular servers. Need-before-greed was still the standard, and people seemed to just play the game. Only difference I really noticed was that nearly everyone had a horse.
After watching the exchange market for a while, I started buying goods, selling them in-game, then selling the game money. It made a nice little profit, basically enough to cover the subscription. I suppose I could have made more money, but I was unwilling to risk more RL money on the venture.
When I finally tired of the game, I made a few hundred selling my characters (with a forced rename).
Systems like the station exchange seem to have two goals: 1. Reign in the black market, and associated scams. If you can buy something 'safe and legal' you're not going to go to the black market. 2. Balance those who are time-poor and cash-rich with those that are time-rich and cash-poor. For a time it was possible to have someone's 'job' be playing EQ2. Then an exploit surfaced and crashed the plat market.
In EQ2's case, goal #1 was not very well achieved. Relatively few players were willing to publically declare "I wanna go to the exchange server". Instead, they stayed on their old server and bought on the black market. That way their friends wouldn't know about it.
As for EvE, I don't think an exchange system is necessary. GTC sales allow for a currency market. As for gear, EvE is less gear-dependent than EQ2. Sure, the top-of-the-line T2 gear is better, but you can still be very effective with T1 gear. And if you really want to buy in-game gear with RL money, you can sell GTCs for ISK.
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WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.05 19:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Forsch That's because mining is boring. In the perfect game there shouldn't be boring things you have to do to advance.
I agree, and in such a game paying for anything would not accomplish you anything. Because you'd only be paying someone else to take away some of your fun(which would be stupid).
As you can see paying for in game items/money means the game it's self has a fundemental flaw. So don't blame the players if they don't want to waste thier time, just take away all the boring time sinks.
"I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." |
MeGrand
Gallente Thunder Talons
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Posted - 2006.10.05 19:33:00 -
[40]
No
No NO no no
oh and no All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order |
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spurious signal
Caldari Brainiacs
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Posted - 2006.10.05 19:36:00 -
[41]
We already have this.
EVE condone, sanction, protect and facilitate the purchase of ISK for real money via GTC's.
Want a BS BPO? 3 GTC's, bingo, there's your billion ISK. Want a Caldari Navy Raven? 3 GTC's to you sir. Plenty of websites to buy them from linked on this site. Want a brand new character after using yours to scam, cheat and extort? No problems, just buy a few GTC's and head to the Sell Orders forum, pick up any kind of character you want with your bought ISK.
Made a fortune by monopolising a T2 manufacturing area like cloaks or by exploiting complexes for months or by scamming billions? No problems, head to eBay and do a Dentara.
Anyone who thinks that real-world cash doesn't rule EVE now is living in a fantasy world... oh.. hang on...
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Sosus Red
Caldari Thunderbolts The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2006.10.05 22:18:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Sosus Red on 05/10/2006 22:21:21
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet If a company introduces station exchange because it can't police out of game sales, it's a sad thing. I realise it's impossible to stop this happening, but they should at least try.
If a company introduces station exchange because it wants to take a cut of the cash, then they're evil. The poor are discriminated against, and weak-willed idiots with lots of disposable income (like me) are tempted to spend their cash on virtual swag.
Either way it's a bad thing, IMO.
Ill guess the entire MMO industry is sad because every game has items people want and dont want to grind for. Grinding is just a way to keeep people playing. They need to do this so much oif the time to get be able to play such and such content or do so so....instead of making it a "grind" just make is a fun and enjoyable experience...Getting gold in everyquest 2 in any respectable amount is not a fun and enjoyable expereince.
I must admist that sometime I do enjoy mining, but the process could be mproved I think. Point it, there is no wy to companies can police this, it is too widespread.
"If a company introduces station exchange because it wants to take a cut of the cash, then they're evil"
Sorry to break it too you, but in this way, the whole world is evil. Everything is about money, or the quest for more of it.THose with the most money are victorious. I wont even get stated on this discussion...
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.10.05 22:58:00 -
[43]
The chances of CCP offering a service such as Sony's Station Exchange are slim. Among other reasons, instituting a Station Exchange would require opening another game server to keep Tranquility from changing because of the impact RMT would have on the economy, market, etc. CCP has voiced a desire to have just one server, Tranquility, and this would be counter to that desire.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online |
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Shar Gath
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:04:00 -
[44]
<3 tranquility ---------------
SMOKE BUD MON!!! |
Pwyle Kenobi
Caldari InterSun Freelance
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: MeGrand No
No NO no no
oh and no
Not to mention, no no no and NO!
Originally by: kieron The chances of CCP offering a service such as Sony's Station Exchange are slim. Among other reasons, instituting a Station Exchange would require opening another game server to keep Tranquility from changing because of the impact RMT would have on the economy, market, etc. CCP has voiced a desire to have just one server, Tranquility, and this would be counter to that desire.
Huzzah!
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Vireya
Broken Saints
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:15:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Phoenix Lonestar Look at everything SOE has touched and managed to kill. SWG... MO... etc. Following their lead may not be the best business move...
amen to that!
i used to play matrix online before sony. then they came along and buggered it up!
copying from station can only lead to headaches....
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Kael D'mende
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.05 23:22:00 -
[47]
All i can say is hell NO!!
dont want any SOE virus in eve thank u very much ;o)
imo the character trade/sale is allready so so imho anyway :O)
Regards. /Kael |
Gonada
Gallente Cross Roads
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Posted - 2006.10.06 00:32:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Gonada on 06/10/2006 00:32:42 the only way id ever suppoort this is if i can get the address of whoever rips me off so I can go lay the beatdown.
on an even more sarcastic note, soe isnt exactly famous for smart decisions, BUT is famous for gouging as much money out of immature kids and adults as they can.
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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spurious signal
Caldari Brainiacs
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Posted - 2006.10.06 06:44:00 -
[49]
Edited by: spurious signal on 06/10/2006 06:44:25
Originally by: kieron Among other reasons, instituting a Station Exchange would require opening another game server to keep Tranquility from changing because of the impact RMT would have on the economy, market, etc.
What the...?
So you think RMT would have an impact on the economy, market etc? So why are GTC for ISK sales still alowed and protected by CCP? Simply pretending that RMT isn't already here isn't going to make it go away.
I'm honestly flabbergasted at the dual standards CCP are espousing here. One the one hand you say "no to RMT!" but on the other hand you condone, protect and encourage GTC sales for ISK... which is RMT and you know it.
I've sent an email to [email protected] about this asking for clarification on CCP's stance since there was a period when even discussion of this issue on the forums wasn't allowed. After getting no resposnse for a month I sent the email again. Still no response. For god's sake address this issue one way or another, don't just lie about it to us.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.06 07:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: spurious signal Edited by: spurious signal on 06/10/2006 06:44:25
Originally by: kieron Among other reasons, instituting a Station Exchange would require opening another game server to keep Tranquility from changing because of the impact RMT would have on the economy, market, etc.
What the...?
So you think RMT would have an impact on the economy, market etc? So why are GTC for ISK sales still alowed and protected by CCP? Simply pretending that RMT isn't already here isn't going to make it go away.
Seek your answer in the question young ... oh wait.
You answered it yourself, ignoring it won't make it go away. CCP introduced GTC sellage to seperate sellers from buyers so that professional selling could actually be repressed by the buyers themselves by simple virtue of the demand for gametime.
So far it works, and don't try to tell me that there's professional farmers reselling GTC's en-masse outside of the Eve market because there are not. The gtc's sold here are bought up nicely by individual players, meaning that at least for that part of the RMT market no macroing, h4xoring or other sploitage took place, capiche ?
Old blog |
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.10.06 07:37:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sosus Red I can see your point, but then what about the guy who cant play EVE very often but still wants to know what its like to fly a Caldari Navy Raven. He cant do countless mission for the hundreds of thousands of LP, but he does have an extra $50. invariably, you arent going to progress very far in this game without commiting a lot of time in it. TO some people, time is as valuable as money. Some people have more time to spend, some people have more money.
Again, im not for or against, just presenting arguments because I think this needs to be discussed.
I am against cash for ISK / ISK for cash. Your credit card limit should not effect your in-game resources.
I am a fairly casual player but I have access to all manner of stuff. Skill progression in Eve is time based so regardless how often I play I can train non-stop. The only thing more play time efcts is LP and ISK. There is nothing you can get with LP that you cannot get for ISK. ISK can be made offline with very little effort.
AFK trading can make you tens of millions a week for the time it takes to place a trade and set auto-pilot. POS mining, Set it up and fuel it / unload once a week. Run a reactor. Buy shares in ISS. Get a good BPO (T1) and research it's ME up, then sell BPCs on Escrow. Set buy orders for minerals, build ships, sell them. I used to be based 2 jumps from a trade hub. I would build a BS a night from BPCs I purchased on Escrow and mins I bought from local miners. Each one made a profit of about 10mil, so 70mil a week just for logging in, place trade orders, set courier mission, log out.
You need starting capital but I got mine grinding missions one Sunday afternoon (go the +3 implant offers) and it has supported me ever since.
All these ways of making ISK create a vibrant ingame economy and allow casual gamers like me to have as much fun as the guy who plays 8 hours a day. If ISK for cash was made legit the economy would come apart as massive amounts of ISK would appear out of nowhere. Wars would be meaningless as long as an enemy was prepared to take out a second mortgage to hire mercs and equip all his guys with Titans.
Short answer, No. No meta-gaming.
>> RECRUITING << |
spurious signal
Caldari Brainiacs
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Posted - 2006.10.06 08:32:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Seek your answer in the question young ... oh wait.
You answered it yourself, ignoring it won't make it go away. CCP introduced GTC sellage to seperate sellers from buyers so that professional selling could actually be repressed by the buyers themselves by simple virtue of the demand for gametime.
So far it works, and don't try to tell me that there's professional farmers reselling GTC's en-masse outside of the Eve market because there are not. The gtc's sold here are bought up nicely by individual players, meaning that at least for that part of the RMT market no macroing, h4xoring or other sploitage took place, capiche ?
Hey I'm not an idiot, I know why CCP have turned EVE into an RMT game, but the hypocrisy of them repeatedly saying that they disagree with RMT while condoning and protecting GTC sales sickens me.
As for the professional element, well, I don't honestly know but I do know that there are a few GTC sellers who have sold 10's of 1000's of $ worth of GTCs over the last six months. I can't find the thread detailing this but there was one seller in particular that someone had found who had sold, if I remember correctly, over $20,000 worth of GTCs. Tell me that's a normal player. And if it IS a normal player are you OK with the idea of someone buying that much ISK?
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.10.06 08:49:00 -
[53]
As someone who can only play of an evening, I thoroughly approve of RMT (real money trading for anyone who doesn't get the abbreviation).
The simple fact is, RMT is going to happen whether you like it or not. It's better it be regulated and equally available to everyone than not at all.
People complain about farmers where RMT is involved, but I ask you, what's the difference to the game when you have a 100 man corp farming roids in hisec, or a 100 man macro corp farming roids in hisec? Nothing at all, just a difference in perception.
This is aside from the fact that RMT is already regulated in Eve by the sale of GTCs, of course. Anyone who wants to buy cash can just buy a game time card. Making it a simple cash -> ISK is just a step to make it easier so people done have to auction the stuff off.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
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Niccolado Starwalker
Syncore Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.06 09:01:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 06/10/2006 09:01:55
Originally by: Sosus Red Edited by: Sosus Red on 05/10/2006 18:00:43 "Station Exchange is the official Sony Online Entertainment auction service that provides players a secure method of buying and selling the right to use in game coin, items and characters in accordance with SOEÆs license agreement, rules and guidelines."
Everything associated with SOE can go to hell for my part. I dont want to have anything to do with them at all!
That includes station exchange, which is a horrible horrible idea!
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.10.06 09:50:00 -
[55]
I hate SE
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.06 09:51:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 06/10/2006 09:52:52
Originally by: spurious signal
Originally by: Rod Blaine Seek your answer in the question young ... oh wait.
You answered it yourself, ignoring it won't make it go away. CCP introduced GTC sellage to seperate sellers from buyers so that professional selling could actually be repressed by the buyers themselves by simple virtue of the demand for gametime.
So far it works, and don't try to tell me that there's professional farmers reselling GTC's en-masse outside of the Eve market because there are not. The gtc's sold here are bought up nicely by individual players, meaning that at least for that part of the RMT market no macroing, h4xoring or other sploitage took place, capiche ?
Hey I'm not an idiot, I know why CCP have turned EVE into an RMT game, but the hypocrisy of them repeatedly saying that they disagree with RMT while condoning and protecting GTC sales sickens me.
As for the professional element, well, I don't honestly know but I do know that there are a few GTC sellers who have sold 10's of 1000's of $ worth of GTCs over the last six months. I can't find the thread detailing this but there was one seller in particular that someone had found who had sold, if I remember correctly, over $20,000 worth of GTCs. Tell me that's a normal player. And if it IS a normal player are you OK with the idea of someone buying that much ISK?
CCP didn't turn Eve into an RMT game, they regulated the existing RMT so as to make sure the economy receives less damage from isk selling (while the damage from the buying remains the same atm), and at the same time making the game far less attractive for professional isk selling clubs.
In that, they have a partial solution don't they ? I at least know better then to assume that isk buying at the scale you mention is new to eve.
And yes, i dislike those massive buyers heavily as well. Maybe CCP should install a limit of some sorts. The problem with that being that those that don't want to abide by the limit will go back to ebay, undoing part of the whole deal again.
Old blog |
TheKiller8
Caldari S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:20:00 -
[57]
As if a fat wallet is going to make up for actual ingame experience. If nubs want to fly carriers, let them, I'll be ready You know you are not allowed to link your website on the forums due to the bad language in use. Link removed. Email [email protected] for more information. -wystler LEAVE ME ALONE |
Nafri
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:27:00 -
[58]
We have already enough profesionals hunting for $$ in Eve
From Dusk till Dawn
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spurious signal
Caldari Brainiacs
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:37:00 -
[59]
Edited by: spurious signal on 06/10/2006 10:37:18
Originally by: Rod Blaine CCP didn't turn Eve into an RMT game, they regulated the existing RMT so as to make sure the economy receives less damage from isk selling (while the damage from the buying remains the same atm), and at the same time making the game far less attractive for professional isk selling clubs.
In that, they have a partial solution don't they ? I at least know better then to assume that isk buying at the scale you mention is new to eve.
And yes, i dislike those massive buyers heavily as well. Maybe CCP should install a limit of some sorts. The problem with that being that those that don't want to abide by the limit will go back to ebay, undoing part of the whole deal again.
I agree, it is a partial solution, it's one step. I do think we're arguing at cross-purposes here and that we actually agree about a lot of this. It's not so much the solution that they've come up with but their refusal to be honest about it that I personally am unhappy about.
On the one hand they condemn it but at the same time they support and protect it. If CCP would bite the bullet and engage in open, honest discussions with us about it then I think the argument could move forward.
I also think it's important to keep in mind that RMT via GTCs is still only a partial solution. EVE is still plagued with isk-farming operations, if the histrionics on these forums are anything to go by and if the huge swathes of EVE-related eBay sales are anything to go by. So clearly it's not working 100%, but what's the truth behind all of this? Is it trial accounts that are to blame? What is the real extent of the problem?
It's time for CCP to act like adults and to treat it's playerbase like adults over this and start open, honest discussions, not hide from the issue and pretend all is well.
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Resetgun
Caldari Caldari Space Ammunition
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Posted - 2006.10.06 12:19:00 -
[60]
Station Exchange. Bad idea. Very bad idea. No. No. No!
"As long as there are greedy people and the devs do nothing, it will work." - Dentara Rast, billionaire |
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