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Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
47
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:13:35 -
[1] - Quote
I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do. Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare. Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's. Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE. Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets? I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is? |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
743
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 13:24:21 -
[2] - Quote
I feel your pain
At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay |
Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 13:27:51 -
[3] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay
maybe battleships should have a point defense system, that would give the ship a chance of shooting the bomb before it detonates. |
Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
38107
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 13:35:54 -
[4] - Quote
I enjoy using battleships semi-regularly, particularly the Barghest.
In our corp Suddenly BarghestGäó has become a thing. Why just jump into something simple to go do a lol-gank? Why not take billions of ISK worth of faction battleships instead and make it an event? So we do. Nothing like dying to a Barghest and Bhaalgorn while you're trying to run your relic site in your Heron or something.
Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
The Endgame | Wormhole Diaries
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
744
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Posted - 2015.02.19 13:45:46 -
[5] - Quote
Erica Dusette wrote: Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
For some strange reason, people tend to get a little giddy when groups of Faction Battleships cruise around |
Erica Dusette
Isogen 5
38115
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 13:53:03 -
[6] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Erica Dusette wrote: Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
For some strange reason, people tend to get a little giddy when groups of Faction Battleships cruise around See the sacrifice we make? Putting all that on the line is a glory to Bob, even more so if it all dies.
Just think of the positive Karma coming our way when eventually Suddenly BarghestGäó goes down in a ball of holy fire.
An instance was just recently in fact. One of our new pilots spots a Drake doing sites next door. Call comes over comms "Dusette, need a Barghest to static". I was dead at the time, in cryo-stasis after shooting myself in the head during an extreme psyhotic episode, but that's another story. Suffice to say my sister Dani jumped into the Barghest and off she went.
Now our intrepid new pilot was a little naive and didn't bother to link the Drake's corp in fleet. And us being somewhat furious with bloodlust at the time didn't bother to ask ...
As it turned out, after landing on grid, the Drake bait belonged to La Division Bleue, one of the largest French wormhole PVP organizations around. Of course next thing you know all the things land on grid and it's Suddenly On for everyone and their grandmothers. Of course being worth nearly 3b, Suddenly BarghestGäó quickly becomes primary, but my sister managed to get it out safely, returning with a Tengu plus another sister in her Stratios where we joined the others in murdering all the French folks in a classic gank-counter-gank-counter-counter-gank style scenario, followed by Foedus yelling at our scout for risking the Barghest by not checking the Drake's corp.
So really even when it goes bad it still goes good. For someone.
Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!
Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel
The Endgame | Wormhole Diaries
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
1955
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 14:34:39 -
[7] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay +1
Also I don't see a compelling delta in DPS or EHP compared to T3's (or even HAC's), for the pain points that come with flying them..
Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective. What if...
HAC's 3.5 AU warp speed T1 Cruisers 3.3 AU warp speed BC's 3.1 AU warp speed Faction BS's 3.0 AU warp speed BS's 2.7 AU warp speed
Tweak that to taste, but you get the idea. Key is that front of the line ships should always be fun to fly, especially as EvE stares down the competitive barrel of more twitch-based space sims like Elite and SS. I totally get a delta in speeds needs to exist with fast tackle, but if you make an entire ship class not fun to fly anymore you have lost the plot.. Gimping tank or other rigging to use hyperspatials just to un-do that suckage is not the answer, base speeds need a rethink IMHO.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
745
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 14:51:31 -
[8] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective.
Actually, this is a very good point, and it's also worth mentioning that this has only been compounded by the Power projection nerfs. With Jump Bridges and Titan Bridges getting swept up with the Power Projection changes, its made subcap fleets a lot less manouverable, and of course this is going to hit the slowest moving subcaps the hardest. If you want to go somewhere, doing it in Battleships is just an exercise in self-harm. |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
113
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 15:16:15 -
[9] - Quote
At this point, the only point a battleship really serves is to bash on structures you can't reach with capitals.
And to bump freighters. Never forget the freighter bumping.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
967
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 15:41:14 -
[10] - Quote
an orca warps as fast as a t1 battleship.... A BLOODY ORCA! I was going to do a BS roam, then I went like 2 jumps and just said no. maybe I should set up an ascendancy clone for lowsec BS fun?
also fighters and fighter bombers hit battleships rather well, so BS are vulnerable to bombers and caps. In lowsec bombers are very weak vs BS, but many parts of lowsec are rather well connected to each other making a hotdrop a real possibility. You will probably be able to run a BS for a while, but once people see you often enough they make plans.
all of this is really a shame as battleships are pretty dang awesome, and I would like to see them used more. seems that only a few people are really giving them a try though.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1051
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 15:48:48 -
[11] - Quote
Erica Dusette wrote:I enjoy using battleships semi-regularly, particularly the Barghest.
In our corp Suddenly BarghestGäó has become a thing. Why just jump into something simple to go do a lol-gank? Why not take billions of ISK worth of faction battleships instead and make it an event? So we do. Nothing like dying to a Barghest and Bhaalgorn while you're trying to run your relic site in your Heron or something.
Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly BarghestGäó goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.
PvP Barghest <3
That monster is a machine!!!
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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SpaceMonkey
Dark Angel Battalion
1
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:57:09 -
[12] - Quote
Interesting alliance name.. I look forward to my copy right royalties.
I remember a day when that is what you flew to fight and roam. battleships ruled the space lanes and it was a glorious time. Ravens loaded with heavy launchers firing torps or cruise, ruptures burning around at 5k and gank geddons fit with 1400 arties and 8 gyro'swith 100% tracking of even a frig.
I get why changes were made to the above, but yes battleships are near useless to fly. They still have role, but mostly high sec be that bumping or mish running in faction/techII BS.. even mission runners stay clear of the tech I variants. It's pretty sad state of affairs tbh.
So much has changed around them that I don't know where to begin to rebalance them. Bombers will be bombers, if they drop tech III correctly it's dead as well as a BS. I don't think they broke the BS I think so many tweaks to improve or nerf other ships and stats that have landed the battleship where it is now. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1078
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 16:17:36 -
[13] - Quote
Well they could adjust bombing damage by adjusting a current battleship module, the target spectrum breaker (which is relatively useless atm).
Change it to a Area Spectrum Resistor. Basically give the battleship a increase to the resistance of area effect weapons (bombs). It's an active module, takes a significant amount of cap or possibly cap boosters, and provides resistance to all bomb damage for 20 seconds or something like that.
So you have your battleship gang, you see bombs flying at you. You can either micro jump drive, activate this module, or try to warp away. You have 10 seconds to react to the bomb wave. You see it, activate module, and resist the damage of the bombs (let's say it reduces the aoe by 70 percent).
Modules a midslot already.
So instead of nerfing bombs and bombers, give the battleships a buff by giving them a method of actively surviving the blast.
id rather give the players ways of surviving than just straight nerfing.
Yaay!!!!
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Faridah
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.02.19 16:46:48 -
[14] - Quote
Maybe defender missile launchers could finally find it's place. You load them with those new blitzing fast bomb-seeking warheads?
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
298
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 17:07:26 -
[15] - Quote
They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships [b]or[/b] a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.
Preferably specific battleship hulls will specialize in each of these rolls.
A good practical example is the Rattlesnake: It's damage bonus is to MISSILES, not to Cruises or Torps. This allows it to project terrific firepower onto frigates if it chooses to fit rapid lights. This flexibility should be available to more battleships. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
261
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 17:39:13 -
[16] - Quote
There are a few hulls that currently work pretty well for a few niches, but over the class needs a balance pass. With boosts and implants you can rock people pretty hard still if they don't. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
289
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 17:58:59 -
[17] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay This is trotted out every time someone brings this up and its BS (also along with isboxer cheater crap). Sure bombers are very effective against BS. They is what they are for. But a few AF in the fleet and well the bombers are no more. Oh bombs you say? Well then BS would be used in LS.
They still arn't used much in LS either. So it is not bombs or bombers. It is that HACs are better in every way. Period.
They tank as well with a smaller sig radius and are faster than a BS, so damage application from *all* weapon systems is less (tracking for turrets, sig radius and velocity for missiles/torps ). Combined with great damage output from HACs damage projection and faster warp speed better agility, there really is no reason to use a BS. A fleet of eagles is pretty effective while Ishtars are godlike.
Basically power creep has meant that BS and to a lesser extent BC don't have a role.
Despite this there are BS fleets around (navy apocs). Funny thing about them is that they are not bombed off field with these mythical fleets of bomber wings. Well no more than what should be expected by normal balance game play.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Memphis Baas
171
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 18:23:19 -
[18] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships or a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.
Can it be done by rebalancing battleship-sized modules and guns rather than rebalancing the ships, in your opinion? So that one could fit a battleship for one of your or's, or another.
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Orlacc
798
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:25:46 -
[19] - Quote
You young punks! In my day we use Battleships to mine! (true story)
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6281
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 18:36:23 -
[20] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do. Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare. Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's. Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE. Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets? I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is?
Alright if you are having some kind of image of wooden ships of old side by side putting ball into each other, or maybe something like WWII with the long volleys..... the computer says no.
That a kind of warfare more akin to "second generation war" or also called "line warfare". (First generation is usually called "siege warfare" - castles and such)
Eve is more geared towards 3rd generation maneuver warfare where if you use a battleship it's more likely the center of a "support group".
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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ggodhsup
relocation LLC.
61
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Posted - 2015.02.19 18:45:12 -
[21] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:You young punks! In my day we used Battleships to mine! (true story) And it was uphill both ways!
i remember when the tier 3 bs's were released, i caught a maelstrom belt ratting in solitude low-sec. belt ratting.
but really, their warp speed makes them really boring. more time warping than anything. even moreso, there is no sneaking up on anyone in them.
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Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
278
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 18:50:46 -
[22] - Quote
If you really want battleship fights, you need to find some low sec worth fighting over. Bombers can't pee in your cornflakes there, hot drops are very unlikely and a fortified battleship fleet could stand up to an Ishtar fleet with a proper doctrine.
Name that low sec? Nope, I go t nothing. |
Serene Repose
2270
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 21:21:17 -
[23] - Quote
Roaming in a BS is like ballet in combat boots. It can be done...if you're not worried about TIME.
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Vyl Vit
1060
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:27:12 -
[24] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:If you really want battleship fights, you need to find some low sec worth fighting over. Bombers can't pee in your cornflakes there, hot drops are very unlikely and a fortified battleship fleet could stand up to an Ishtar fleet with a proper doctrine. There may be a lot more to this than meets the eye. Using a BS like a cruiser seems to be the hitch in the getalong. Then, using a cruiser like a powerful frigate seems to be the desire - which likens this sort of fight to dogfighting in jets, not classic naval fleet engagement...if you see where I'm going here.
Anyway, I think battleships where swept out of favor without really examining if it was necessary. At the time it seemed convenient, and now it seems like doctrine. Yet, I think it's too much ship to just reject out of hand just because of something one has heard from someone else who "knows." We don't really know. This "proper doctrine" hasn't been fully explored, so it surely hasn't been thoroughly tested.
When I'm sitting at a gate in my well-tanked, cruise-missile fitted Fleet Typhoon w/enviable drone augmentation, next to a T3 cruiser, I'm not nervous...how about you?
Anyone with any sense has already left town.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2009
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 21:50:17 -
[25] - Quote
Slow to warp, slow to align, slow to lock, low mobility on the field, high SP requirements, mediocre damage application?
There's a plethora of reasons not to use battleships. They are useful when employed in specialist roles, or when durability and damage output is needed but capitals can't be used and speed is not a factor, but otherwise there's normally a better, or more fun option. |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2132
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 21:58:20 -
[26] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do. Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare. Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's. Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE. Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets? I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is? Alright if you are having some kind of image of wooden ships of old side by side putting ball into each other, or maybe something like WWII with the long volleys..... the computer says no. That a kind of warfare more akin to "second generation war" or also called "line warfare". (First generation is usually called "siege warfare" - castles and such) Eve is more geared towards 3rd generation maneuver warfare where if you use a battleship it's more likely the center of a "support group".
Only that every ship in the support group warps twice as fast as a battleship.
Also, I don't think Eve is terribly 3rd generation warfare. Maybe that is the idea behind ship designs but look at the practice and you see, it has all gone out of the window and everyone's flying Tengus, Ishtars and Scimitars =p |
Theodoric Darkwind
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
319
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 22:46:13 -
[27] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:At this point, the only point a battleship really serves is to bash on structures you can't reach with capitals.
And to bump freighters. Never forget the freighter bumping.
Freighter bumping is it pretty much and people only use Machariels and Phoons for that.
Ishtars structure bash every bit as good as Domis and are far more mobile and less likely to DIAF to bombers (though they still can be bombed, ask DBRB about the Ishtar fleets he's wiped out with bombing runs).
Two things need to happen for BS brawls to become a "thing that happens" again.
Bombs need to be nerfed into the dirt or flat out removed from the game (imho nerf the bombs not the bombers, SBs are plenty useful without bombs without being OP).
BS warp speed needs to be un-nerfed so that moving BS fleets isn't an exercise in mental torture. Right now, it is only slightly more painful to move a Carrier/Dread fleet by gates, but of course Carriers/Dreads are vastly more powerful for the annoyance of moving them.
This may not be enough to truly fix it, but would help. BSes are still slaughtered by Carriers/Dreads.
Making BSes viable again would actually do a lot to combat Ishtars/Tengus Online. Making BSes other than the Domi and Apoc viable would do even more, right now Domis and Apocs are the only ones with the range and tracking to effectively fight Ishtars and Tengus. |
Claud Tiberius
Fidelas Constans
99
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:06:28 -
[28] - Quote
BS, particularly T1's, are very much a support ship. You don't fly them on their own because, they cannot handle all target types (unlike T3's and some T2 Cruisers). I think for the most part this is what CCP intended. Their not meant to be the best choice for all fleet battles.
Having said that, I think T3's and BS compete for the same place in fleets and since T3 are just better overall, BS rarely get used. T2 BS certainly still have a place in fleet battles as T3 cannot compete against them. But the T2 BS price being so high, it is often questioned why not use a capital ship instead.
Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
377
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:53:22 -
[29] - Quote
I luv my Battle Ships. I have a collection of about 70, most of them Navy versions. Half of them fit... My Favorite is my Scorpion Ishukone. I'll never undock that one.
I play solo so I rarely get to fly them for what passes as PVP. But they look shiny... |
Ashlar Maidstone
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
155
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:57:01 -
[30] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Slow to warp, slow to align, slow to lock, low mobility on the field, high SP requirements, mediocre damage application?
There's a plethora of reasons not to use battleships. They are useful when employed in specialist roles, or when durability and damage output is needed but capitals can't be used and speed is not a factor, but otherwise there's normally a better, or more fun option.
I cannot but agree with you on this, a BS such as an Apoc is a sitting duck unless there's a way to otherwise get moving. I realize that align and warping are slow but I cannot see the reasoning behind it except for the mass size, I hate to try a carrier next and see it does.... |
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
290
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:30:27 -
[31] - Quote
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:[quote=Elenahina]
Bombs need to be nerfed into the dirt or flat out removed from the game (imho nerf the bombs not the bombers, SBs are plenty useful without bombs without being OP).
Might as well just remove SBs since putting bombs (slamming a torpedo in WWII terms) into the side of a battleship or carrier and doing the David v. Golliath thing is the reason they exist. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
310
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:48:25 -
[32] - Quote
3600mm plates and X-Large Shield Extenders would go a long way in making battleships more relevant.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
377
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:48:26 -
[33] - Quote
Theodoric Darkwind wrote: Bombs need to be nerfed into the dirt or flat out removed from the game (imho nerf the bombs not the bombers,
Ah, poor fellow lost some bling to a surprise bomber. Tsk Tsk. Probably wants ECM removed too...and AFK Cloakers...and anything else that cost him ISK... |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
261
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Posted - 2015.02.20 04:14:13 -
[34] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:BS, particularly T1's, are very much a support ship. You don't fly them on their own because, they cannot handle all target types (unlike T3's and some T2 Cruisers). I think for the most part this is what CCP intended. Their not meant to be the best choice for all fleet battles.
Having said that, I think T3's and BS compete for the same place in fleets and since T3 are just better overall, BS rarely get used. T2 BS certainly still have a place in fleet battles as T3 cannot compete against them. But the T2 BS price being so high, it is often questioned why not use a capital ship instead.
The only T2 battleships are marauders and blops; they don't follow the AF/HAC line and neither of which are something you'd want to bring to a fleet fight. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15035
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 06:01:15 -
[35] - Quote
BS will see use again when T3s and the ishtar finally get their nerfes.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
512
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Posted - 2015.02.20 06:54:59 -
[36] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do. Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare. Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's. Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE. Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets? I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is?
If you're doing purely defensive battles, like protection of a pos, Napoc with Triage Archons is still viable. Bomber proof, can out range Ishtars and is more than a match for Tengus. Completely immobile though. Domi fleet is also a defensive option.
Many people would like some variation in fleet PVP but Tiercide screwed everything up and doesn't scale into 50+ fleets. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6544
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Posted - 2015.02.20 07:12:57 -
[37] - Quote
Just go for even bigger things. Like carriers.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15036
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Posted - 2015.02.20 07:54:07 -
[38] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Just go for even bigger things. Like carriers.
I just cooked up a titan with 3au warp speed, align time that isnt terrible and able to blap subcaps. If only I had the isk to throw at a project this stupid
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Auduin Ituin
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.02.20 11:06:27 -
[39] - Quote
They're fat and slow. With Phoebe, they take forever to move around and are easily attacked by bombers. |
Whysohorni
Zero Compliance
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 11:22:20 -
[40] - Quote
They're big, slow, and their guns have trouble hitting medium or smaller targets, so they are owned by T3 gangs and ishtars.
It's funny because battleships used to be the most powerful combat ships. After years of nerfs to them and boosts to other ships, now they're the worst.
Perhaps large guns need a significant improvement to help them in hitting medium targets. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15043
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 11:25:30 -
[41] - Quote
Whysohorni wrote:
Perhaps large guns need a significant improvement to help them in hitting medium targets.
No they don't.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Auduin Ituin
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 11:32:49 -
[42] - Quote
Whysohorni wrote:They're big, slow, and their guns have trouble hitting medium or smaller targets, so they are owned by T3 gangs and ishtars.
It's funny because battleships used to be the most powerful combat ships. After years of nerfs to them and boosts to other ships, now they're the worst.
Perhaps large guns need a significant improvement to help them in hitting medium targets. While I agree with the first point, can't confirm/deny the 2nd, the 3rd is not exactly right. Neuts, webs, target painters. All can or will help against smaller ships. TPs = less tracking reduction (potentially a tracking bonus). Webs = Lower transversal. Neuts = could turn prop mod and such off, reducing transversal. The Armageddon is a great ship, range bonused heavy neuts with drones as the weapons. |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
647
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 12:45:02 -
[43] - Quote
In my mind the problem isnt HACs, as evidenced by one of the hard counters for an ishtar fleet being navy apocs, the problem is tech 3s.
Similar Ehp levels but with vastly smaller sigs, much faster warp times and not much less dps, theres a reason whenever we want a fleet that is fast, survivable and can still punch above its weight we pull out the t3s. I hope they take this into account once they get around to the rebalancing.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3483
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 13:16:44 -
[44] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote: Despite this there are BS fleets around (navy apocs). Funny thing about them is that they are not bombed off field with these mythical fleets of bomber wings. Well no more than what should be expected by normal balance game play.
Foxcats were specifically built around being a pain in the ass to bomb off the field while tracking at long range. Terrible example. |
Vyl Vit
1061
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 18:57:26 -
[45] - Quote
Umm...let's not forget personal skills. Like I said earlier, how this is being visualized isn't necessarily the be-all end-all scenario to consider. By the time you're proficient in a BS you should also be proficient in other things. All I've heard from the "BSs suck" group centers around the idea of using one like they'd use a frig, or a cruiser (which they use like a frig). One great assumption is the encounter will be range happy for the smaller ship. Why make this assumption? Why assume frigs and cruisers don't have to use a different tactic when trying to bull down a BS? Imagine if you will another scenario other than an in-transit BS has blundered into your gate camp.
Anyone with any sense has already left town.
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Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
47
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 20:05:22 -
[46] - Quote
From what i've seen in my time in EvE, theres no real reason to train past cruiser, unless you want a cap. BC and BS's have been nerfed into pointlessness, I mean, i understand the point of view, why train to fly a BS well, when i can put that time towards a T3 or a HAC. Just seems to me that the game's balance is hugely scewed, when a fleet would rather take a cruiser over a Battleship for DPS, as Battleships are supposed to be the biggest weapons platforms outside of caps. How many trailers have CCP put out where there are these huge fleet battles with Battleships at the heart of them? I'm sure theres a misrepresentation in there somewhere. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15046
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 20:11:03 -
[47] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote: Despite this there are BS fleets around (navy apocs). Funny thing about them is that they are not bombed off field with these mythical fleets of bomber wings. Well no more than what should be expected by normal balance game play.
Foxcats were specifically built around being a pain in the ass to bomb off the field while tracking at long range. Terrible example.
Same applies to any armour BS doctrine, bombers wont remove them. Bomber prey is the shield doctrines.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6286
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 22:04:36 -
[48] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:BS will see use again when T3s and the ishtar finally get their nerfes.
I'm two weeks from T3s so we can expect a nerf in 2 weeks.
Yeah that's right. Hey CCP, is that all you got? Hurt me plenty you'll have to do it twice because it'll feel good the first time.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Marsha Mallow
1955
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 22:30:09 -
[49] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:From what i've seen in my time in EvE, theres no real reason to train past cruiser, unless you want a cap. BC and BS's have been nerfed into pointlessness, I mean, i understand the point of view, why train to fly a BS well, when i can put that time towards a T3 or a HAC. Just seems to me that the game's balance is hugely scewed, when a fleet would rather take a cruiser over a Battleship for DPS, as Battleships are supposed to be the biggest weapons platforms outside of caps. How many trailers have CCP put out where there are these huge fleet battles with Battleships at the heart of them? I'm sure theres a misrepresentation in there somewhere. I don't mean this in a snotty way, but if you are a newer player you might not remember when BS fleets dominated and everyone whinged endlessly about it.
Nullsec for me from 2009ish was Apoc/Mega heavy for years (which was a horrendous retrain for pure Cald spec, which a lot of scrub bears were upon leaving empire). Then we had DraekOnline, then Tempest/Maelstorm AlphaFleets, Abaddon Sit and Listen to Makalu Cry for HoursGäó, then PotatoFleet, then Nagas, Tengus and god knows how many other FOTM iterations. Bombers are awesome just for the screeching they generate. I quite enjoy being bombed and having the whole fleet decimated just to see who completely loses it first and runs to a forum to nerdrage.
Fair enough T3s and Ishtars are a bit OP atm, and it's been an issue for a while, but so what? There's always a FOTM doctrine, and there's always an overpowered mechanic. At least the recent stuff is quick to train. When T3s are rebalanced there'll be screaming the likes we hardly get to see - it's probably wise to spread this out after the Phoebe changes. So we can enjoy it properly. The recent emphasis on making smaller ships viable again was something we bloody well asked for. These comps are cheap and nippy, and god knows no-one enjoys grinding as a second job.
At least try the newly released stuff before complaining. The new T3 dessies are quite fun.
DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15046
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 22:32:26 -
[50] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:baltec1 wrote:BS will see use again when T3s and the ishtar finally get their nerfes. I'm two weeks from T3s so we can expect a nerf in 2 weeks. Yeah that's right. Hey CCP, is that all you got? Hurt me plenty you'll have to do it twice because it'll feel good the first time.
Im banking on fanfest.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Phig Neutron
Rubicon Cubism
38
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 04:32:47 -
[51] - Quote
While we're complaining, how about the cost of them! An Armageddon used to be 50 million, and now it's nearly 200 mil. I understand the idea of "tiericide" was to boost all those frigates that everyone never flew again after the tutorials, and all the cruisers that weren't the one or two best of each race. It seems that they went the opposite way with battleships -- nerf them all and triple the price of the cheaper ones.
Also: HACs were "ruining EVE" long before T3s. When they nerf T3s the game will still be mostly HACs-Online. I would still throw caution to the wind and take out battleships against HACs (spider tanking used to work well) but the cost is unbelievable now. |
Whittorical Quandary
The Asteroid is Depleted
18
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 04:59:24 -
[52] - Quote
Ironically RL battleships in this day and age have been nerfed due to aircraft and carriers, which have pretty much made them useless. to the point i'm not sure if the US Navy even has any operating outside of museums.
One of the last ones i remember that was still in use (retired now) was used for hitting large stationary targets along the coastline. supported by a fleet of ships to support with anti air weaponry.
To this extent you can say battleships in pvp would be strictly for combat against other capitol ships and for use against POS's with a fleet of support ships to pick off the smaller bombers and such.
Never used a BS in a situation like this so idk if that's plausable in game.
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams
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SkyFlyer
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
103
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 06:23:13 -
[53] - Quote
Battleship PvP Isn't dead its just not seen much, however if you want to see some check out my Bio ingame and watch my Videos of Gloriously taking multi billion ships solo into fights against the odds :< |
Auduin Ituin
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 06:40:25 -
[54] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:From what i've seen in my time in EvE, theres no real reason to train past cruiser, unless you want a cap. BC and BS's have been nerfed into pointlessness, I mean, i understand the point of view, why train to fly a BS well, when i can put that time towards a T3 or a HAC. Just seems to me that the game's balance is hugely scewed, when a fleet would rather take a cruiser over a Battleship for DPS, as Battleships are supposed to be the biggest weapons platforms outside of caps. How many trailers have CCP put out where there are these huge fleet battles with Battleships at the heart of them? I'm sure theres a misrepresentation in there somewhere. PvE (Incursions) and they have a few special things. Vindicator - Super high DPS+90% webs (although the other serp ships can get 90% webs as well). Machariel - Epic Kiter. Can solo small cruiser gangs. Marauders - Super Tanky, long range. Blops - Blops. Armageddon - Range Bonused neuts (and can use heavies) with drones as weapon system. Bhaalgorn - Can infinitely drain cap using heavy nos and mix that with heavy neuts to reduce the cap of anything by a ton. Dominix - Drone using battleship, so it can be fit for rr/cap transfers and become super strong. Scorpion - ECM burst range bonused. ECM bonuses. Maybe some other stuff.. |
SkyFlyer
DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax
103
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 06:53:08 -
[55] - Quote
PvP Aspect of Auduins View:
Vindicator : Can do either serious kick ass DPS (shield fitted) with still a quiet heavy tank (~2k) or else Armor vindicator which does decently personally to do any serious work it has to be pimped.
Machariel: Same as above which tbh the Armor mach is quiet fun :<
Bhaalgorn: With the right fit (discussed in the Bhaalgorn thread) this thing can rip apart any of your "Oh im so leet nano gang" aslong as you don't get jammed :<
Nestor: Overlord 'nuff said people just need to learn to use it.
Barghest: a pile of shite
Nightmare: Please go and see ssagat & Chessurs videos for correct usage
Rattlesnake:It doesn't matter if you fit this thing with ASBs or active tank this does serious DPS with still a p sick tank on it, would recommend it for pvp 10/10.
Faction Battleship: all of them are pretty worth it tbh , but i just think they are too cheap :<
Well Marauders and Black Ops are a league of their own as each of them has a role and with the Marauder having Bastion this thing is a beast (please see my videos for reference) , however people like to cyno kill those :D
Black ops im yet to try D: |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4068
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 08:08:12 -
[56] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain Everyone feels the pain...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
969
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 15:39:32 -
[57] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Just go for even bigger things. Like carriers. I just cooked up a titan with 3au warp speed, align time that isnt terrible and able to blap subcaps. If only I had the isk to throw at a project this stupid
I can only assume it is a leviathan as that doesn't have the "Turrets fitted to this ship will do reduced damage to small targets" bit.
I was considering buying a Ragnarok to alpha battleships but they nerfed titan guns
@ChainsawPlankto
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
969
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 15:47:47 -
[58] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:baltec1 wrote:BS will see use again when T3s and the ishtar finally get their nerfes. I'm two weeks from T3s so we can expect a nerf in 2 weeks. Yeah that's right. Hey CCP, is that all you got? Hurt me plenty you'll have to do it twice because it'll feel good the first time. Im banking on fanfest.
they keep saying they will do it, and they have done nearly everything else now, plus it is a pretty big thing that they migh as well keep up their sleeve for another month... so I'd say likely.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Phig Neutron
Rubicon Cubism
41
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 17:40:05 -
[59] - Quote
SkyFlyer wrote:Battleship PvP Isn't dead its just not seen much, however if you want to see some check out my Bio ingame and watch my Videos of Gloriously taking multi billion ships solo into fights against the odds :< I don't do a lot of Youtubeing, but if I ever get around to watching some EVE videos, I plan to check out yours first. Can I ask for your take on how to fit + use an Armageddon for solo use? |
Seven Koskanaiken
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1415
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 19:13:18 -
[60] - Quote
I hear the unironic raven is a thing. |
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Agent Unknown
Night Theifs DamnedNation
32
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 20:56:58 -
[61] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:baltec1 wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Just go for even bigger things. Like carriers. I just cooked up a titan with 3au warp speed, align time that isnt terrible and able to blap subcaps. If only I had the isk to throw at a project this stupid I can only assume it is a leviathan as that doesn't have the "Turrets fitted to this ship will do reduced damage to small targets" bit. I was considering buying a Ragnarok to alpha battleships but they nerfed titan guns
If a BS is sitting still you can nearly volley them off the field with a sieged dread. On SiSi my navy domi died in 4 shots from a Naglfar (I forgot the all important prop mod...) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15151
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 03:16:30 -
[62] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:I hear the unironic raven is a thing.
Raven is so much fun, everything dives into scram range to kill it.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
974
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 03:23:21 -
[63] - Quote
I have been in a Nightmare fleet recently.
Trouble is speed, firstly. They are so slow you mostly used them for defense or supporting a capital fight. Align and warp speeds. Then a T3 has the same eHP, is faster and has a lower signature radius.
So, other than POS bashing .... what use are they?
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15151
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 03:33:37 -
[64] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I have been in a Nightmare fleet recently.
Trouble is speed, firstly. They are so slow you mostly used them for defense or supporting a capital fight. Align and warp speeds. Then a T3 has the same eHP, is faster and has a lower signature radius.
So, other than POS bashing .... what use are they?
tank, firepower, bumping caps, heavy cyno, fleet flagship, emergency logi, ammo bin, fleet scout, anchor ship, sniper, firewall, prober, moral booster, heavy ECM, absorber of bombs.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Liam Inkuras
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
1448
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 04:39:09 -
[65] - Quote
Phig Neutron wrote:While we're complaining, how about the cost of them! An Armageddon used to be 50 million, and now it's nearly 200 mil. I understand the idea of "tiericide" was to boost all those frigates that everyone never flew again after the tutorials, and all the cruisers that weren't the one or two best of each race. It seems that they went the opposite way with battleships -- nerf them all and triple the price of the cheaper ones.
Also: HACs were "ruining EVE" long before T3s. When they nerf T3s the game will still be mostly HACs-Online. I would still throw caution to the wind and take out battleships against HACs (spider tanking used to work well) but the cost is unbelievable now. Machariels also used to cost 1bill, yet today they cost 500mill. I fail to see your point
I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
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Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
810
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 05:46:05 -
[66] - Quote
Faction battleships work just fine in the current meta since they've got highslots for firewall smartbombs.
I want to be your representative for CSMX!
Please EVEmail me with any quesitons, comments or concerns you have about myself or EVE.
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
485
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 06:35:31 -
[67] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:Phig Neutron wrote:While we're complaining, how about the cost of them! An Armageddon used to be 50 million, and now it's nearly 200 mil. I understand the idea of "tiericide" was to boost all those frigates that everyone never flew again after the tutorials, and all the cruisers that weren't the one or two best of each race. It seems that they went the opposite way with battleships -- nerf them all and triple the price of the cheaper ones.
Also: HACs were "ruining EVE" long before T3s. When they nerf T3s the game will still be mostly HACs-Online. I would still throw caution to the wind and take out battleships against HACs (spider tanking used to work well) but the cost is unbelievable now. Machariels also used to cost 1bill, yet today they cost 500mill. I fail to see your point
I wonder why that is...
A lot of faction stuff has been dropping in price? time to invest now before the big sov changes?
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6546
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 06:42:55 -
[68] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:Phig Neutron wrote:While we're complaining, how about the cost of them! An Armageddon used to be 50 million, and now it's nearly 200 mil. I understand the idea of "tiericide" was to boost all those frigates that everyone never flew again after the tutorials, and all the cruisers that weren't the one or two best of each race. It seems that they went the opposite way with battleships -- nerf them all and triple the price of the cheaper ones.
Also: HACs were "ruining EVE" long before T3s. When they nerf T3s the game will still be mostly HACs-Online. I would still throw caution to the wind and take out battleships against HACs (spider tanking used to work well) but the cost is unbelievable now. Machariels also used to cost 1bill, yet today they cost 500mill. I fail to see your point Man, the alliance is getting of cheap with the reimbursible machariels now, then
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Bo Bojangles
Interstellar Renegades Advent of Fate
33
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 14:14:56 -
[69] - Quote
Cruiser hulls seem by far the favorite in Eve nullsec pvp, and that's just fine, but there's no reason to leave battleships where they are. I love my BS's and when they knocked down their warp speed to 2au/s, it killed the game for me and I went afk for a year and stopped subscribing altogether for another. It had been my favorite hull, but I'd never flown anything that slow in Eve before.
See I'm not a dependable roamer anymore. Just had too many 50+ jump roams with too few targets to make it worth it. With BS's though, the roam comes to you. Sure you're at a disadvantage because of the state of BS's, but at least you don't have to jump gates all night.
I took my Vargur out into a dangerous pipe yesterday to do a plex. I didn't care. Bored, I halfway wanted the baddies to find me, or at least get to say that I'd take a shiney ship anywhere to do anything, despite my somewhat humble finances. The tank was good and it lasted up until their Curse arrived and then some, my own slapdash rescue party ineffective.
My max skilled Warrior II's flailed away at the lone Ares tackle, scoring hits only 17% of the time. The Ares never got under 80% shields, my neut unable to quite reach him. That MWD sig radius combined with the WD bonus makes them immune to any BS defenses while orbiting beyond neut range. He could have kept me there all night. I think that if a BS's defenses can't kill an orbiting frigate, they should eventually be able to drive it away.
BS's should be more of a formidable opponent, and not simply a cow set out to slaughter.
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M1k3y Koontz
Aether Ventures Surely You're Joking
651
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 15:07:37 -
[70] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay maybe battleships should have a point defense system, that would give the ship a chance of shooting the bomb before it detonates.
New roll for defender missiles.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2136
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 18:54:38 -
[71] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:BS will see use again when T3s and the ishtar finally get their nerfes.
I am waiting for that day.
I will build a little shrine. Is CCP selling model Ishtars? I could use some to burn as an offering. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
485
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 00:50:54 -
[72] - Quote
Well the sp grind merry go round had to have something to justify itself and encouraging the entirety of nullsec to train sentries would have been much harder without a minimum of 25d + 20d + hac training level per person +ù 60k players or so. That's a lot of revenue and surely anyone with a brain would do the same thing if it was their own business.
And prior to that was carrier blobs which I am tangentially skilling up now which means approximately a whole YEAR of skilling to use effectively particularly once you consider logi5 being 30d alone.
So no we haven't seen the end of ishtars online and we won't until the rate of people skilling up drones declines due to already being maxed out.
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
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Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:31:27 -
[73] - Quote
So, given that CCP officially thinks that Battleships are fine the way they are, that they dont need a rework or anything. They are fine with the current variation of ships used in PvP (even though in the very same blog they announced nerfs because of tengu and ishtar spam, but were not allowed to notice that)
So given this, how would we go about changing there mind? As I'm hoping that CCP will listen to reason on this. |
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
967
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:38:08 -
[74] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:So, given that CCP officially thinks that Battleships are fine the way they are, that they dont need a rework or anything. They are fine with the current variation of ships used in PvP (even though in the very same blog they announced nerfs because of tengu and ishtar spam, but were not allowed to notice that)
So given this, how would we go about changing there mind? As I'm hoping that CCP will listen to reason on this.
Fly more battleships. Lose them. Get completely owned in them. That will show CCP how much they need buffs.
Okay, that was sarcasm.
You know what will really really show CCP how much they need to buff BS? Just don't ever fly battleships. Never ever. Ever. At all. Don't even train for them.
That way, when you never fly them and don't even have the skills to fly them, everyone will always listen to you about how much they need buffs.
Dammit. Sarcasm strikes again. I gotta stop that.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
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Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:41:47 -
[75] - Quote
Glathull wrote:
Fly more battleships. Lose them. Get completely owned in them. That will show CCP how much they need buffs.
Okay, that was sarcasm.
You know what will really really show CCP how much they need to buff BS? Just don't ever fly battleships. Never ever. Ever. At all. Don't even train for them.
That way, when you never fly them and don't even have the skills to fly them, everyone will always listen to you about how much they need buffs.
Dammit. Sarcasm strikes again. I gotta stop that.
I would fly battleships, i WANT to fly battleships, but between the ridiculas warp time (I can litrally go for a bio break while im warping across the bigger systems) and bomber spam, i may as well sit at Jita undock in a pimped golem. Asking for the biggest sub-cap ship, which is supposed to be the most powerful ship, to actually BE the most powerful ship, isn't asking for to much. |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
548
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:50:22 -
[76] - Quote
Okay. Okay. If everybody's flying these T3s...who's flying the bombers again? I can't tell you the last time I saw a BS killmail with a pack of hounds doing the damage. The last Hound I saw on a killmail was the victim.
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
967
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:53:23 -
[77] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Glathull wrote:
Fly more battleships. Lose them. Get completely owned in them. That will show CCP how much they need buffs.
Okay, that was sarcasm.
You know what will really really show CCP how much they need to buff BS? Just don't ever fly battleships. Never ever. Ever. At all. Don't even train for them.
That way, when you never fly them and don't even have the skills to fly them, everyone will always listen to you about how much they need buffs.
Dammit. Sarcasm strikes again. I gotta stop that.
I would fly battleships, i WANT to fly battleships, but between the ridiculas warp time (I can litrally go for a bio break while im warping across the bigger systems) and bomber spam, i may as well sit at Jita undock in a pimped golem. Asking for the biggest sub-cap ship, which is supposed to be the most powerful ship, to actually BE the most powerful ship, isn't asking for to much.
So what you are saying is that you don't fly Battleships. Great. We've established that.
Why should anyone listen to you complain about Battleships when you don't even fly the damn things?
Jesus. My sarcasm was right the first time around.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
|
Vyl Vit
1067
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:54:44 -
[78] - Quote
Surely you know MMOs are filled with 1337s who "know" everything, then proceed to list truisms they heard from somebody who heard from somebody....the idea being, "I'm the fountain of information. Ain't I meta?" All I see here are rumors, truisms and untested theory being asserted as fact.
If you're in a corp that, or have "buds" that do "small-ship roams," then guess what. The BS isn't a "small ship." T3 cruisers pass for small ships, but they're really the BS of the small-ship pvp. If you want to use a BS, then don't run with people who do small ship roams. Problem solved. I'm still chuckling at the idea of a Vindicator falling to a Tengu. I guess it can happen, but there must be a bit of stupidity involved.
Anyone with any sense has already left town.
|
Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:11:33 -
[79] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Surely you know MMOs are filled with 1337s who "know" everything, then proceed to list truisms they heard from somebody who heard from somebody....the idea being, "I'm the fountain of information. Ain't I meta?" All I see here are rumors, truisms and untested theory being asserted as fact.
If you're in a corp that, or have "buds" that do "small-ship roams," then guess what. The BS isn't a "small ship." T3 cruisers pass for small ships, but they're really the BS of the small-ship pvp. If you want to use a BS, then don't run with people who do small ship roams. Problem solved. I'm still chuckling at the idea of a Vindicator falling to a Tengu. I guess it can happen, but there must be a bit of stupidity involved.
well every fleet i've been on that SHOULD be using battleships (as in 100+ people) is using ishtars and tengu's. I very much doubt the FC would be very pleased if i undocked in a raven or an apoc. and to Glathull, I do fly BS's, but only in PvE, not PvP where i WANT to, as do a lot of people I've spoken to , but a gang of about 5 or 6 BS's will get rofl-stomped by a blob. |
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
970
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:16:32 -
[80] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Glathull wrote:
Fly more battleships. Lose them. Get completely owned in them. That will show CCP how much they need buffs.
Okay, that was sarcasm.
You know what will really really show CCP how much they need to buff BS? Just don't ever fly battleships. Never ever. Ever. At all. Don't even train for them.
That way, when you never fly them and don't even have the skills to fly them, everyone will always listen to you about how much they need buffs.
Dammit. Sarcasm strikes again. I gotta stop that.
Some junky stuff.
I just gave your character 500 million ISK. Go buy a battleship or two and fit them right. Go get them blown up. Then come back here and tell us all how battleships suck ass.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
|
|
Winters Chill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
173
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:56:02 -
[81] - Quote
In this meta, battleships should not fit damage modules.
If you add three damage upgrade modules to battleship (like nearly everyone does, ever!) and you know for a fact the typical roamer is a faction cruiser thats very fast. How does doing more damage actually help? If you can't hit him?
Compared to cruisers and frigates battleships put out a shed tonne of vanilla DPS, they don't need more damage, they need to be able to hit.
So if I was going to fit 'any races" battleship. I'd fit with the guns with the best tracking and I'd stick tracking enhancers, tracking computers and target painters (nasty if they are using MWD) on there. Also tracking implants can't hurt either (oh and the tracking booster, whatever its called).
Thats what I'd do.
Also battleship with tracking or falloff bonuses are probably were its at right now. |
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
970
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:08:09 -
[82] - Quote
Winters Chill wrote:In this meta, battleships should not fit damage modules.
If you add three damage upgrade modules to battleship (like nearly everyone does, ever!) and you know for a fact the typical roamer is a faction cruiser thats very fast. How does doing more damage actually help? If you can't hit him?
Compared to cruisers and frigates battleships put out a shed tonne of vanilla DPS, they don't need more damage, they need to be able to hit.
So if I was going to fit 'any races" battleship. I'd fit with the guns with the best tracking and I'd stick tracking enhancers, tracking computers and target painters (nasty if they are using MWD) on there. Also tracking implants can't hurt either (oh and the tracking booster, whatever its called).
Thats what I'd do.
Also battleship with tracking or falloff bonuses are probably were its at right now.
That actually seems pretty reasonable. Except where it doesn't. Which is everywhere.
What you are suggesting is that you do everything you possibly can to gimp a battleship into being an oversized, obese cruiser.
This is completely f***tarded. If you need a cruiser, fly a cruiser. Don't fly a battleship sh!tfit to hell to try and make it an expensive, bad cruiser. Just don't ever do that.
I'm glad you posted though, because now I have some idea of what these clowns are complaining about.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
|
Kiryen O'Bannon
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
212
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 04:35:50 -
[83] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Winters Chill wrote:In this meta, battleships should not fit damage modules.
If you add three damage upgrade modules to battleship (like nearly everyone does, ever!) and you know for a fact the typical roamer is a faction cruiser thats very fast. How does doing more damage actually help? If you can't hit him?
Compared to cruisers and frigates battleships put out a shed tonne of vanilla DPS, they don't need more damage, they need to be able to hit.
So if I was going to fit 'any races" battleship. I'd fit with the guns with the best tracking and I'd stick tracking enhancers, tracking computers and target painters (nasty if they are using MWD) on there. Also tracking implants can't hurt either (oh and the tracking booster, whatever its called).
Thats what I'd do.
Also battleship with tracking or falloff bonuses are probably were its at right now. That actually seems pretty reasonable. Except where it doesn't. Which is everywhere. What you are suggesting is that you do everything you possibly can to gimp a battleship into being an oversized, obese cruiser. This is completely f***tarded. If you need a cruiser, fly a cruiser. Don't fly a battleship sh!tfit to hell to try and make it an expensive, bad cruiser. Just don't ever do that. I'm glad you posted though, because now I have some idea of what these clowns are complaining about.
You migh t be more convincing if you had cited a reason why his suggestion is bad. Using application modules rather than more damage modules makes perfect sense. This does not somehow turn it into an oversize cruiser, it means you can apply damage to cruisers - and for that matter, you'll likely have better application if you mean another battleship.
It seems you're just offended by the suggestion for no apparent reason whatsoever. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
301
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 05:06:18 -
[84] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:Glathull wrote:Winters Chill wrote:In this meta, battleships should not fit damage modules.
If you add three damage upgrade modules to battleship (like nearly everyone does, ever!) and you know for a fact the typical roamer is a faction cruiser thats very fast. How does doing more damage actually help? If you can't hit him?
Compared to cruisers and frigates battleships put out a shed tonne of vanilla DPS, they don't need more damage, they need to be able to hit.
So if I was going to fit 'any races" battleship. I'd fit with the guns with the best tracking and I'd stick tracking enhancers, tracking computers and target painters (nasty if they are using MWD) on there. Also tracking implants can't hurt either (oh and the tracking booster, whatever its called).
Thats what I'd do.
Also battleship with tracking or falloff bonuses are probably were its at right now. That actually seems pretty reasonable. Except where it doesn't. Which is everywhere. What you are suggesting is that you do everything you possibly can to gimp a battleship into being an oversized, obese cruiser. This is completely f***tarded. If you need a cruiser, fly a cruiser. Don't fly a battleship sh!tfit to hell to try and make it an expensive, bad cruiser. Just don't ever do that. I'm glad you posted though, because now I have some idea of what these clowns are complaining about. You migh t be more convincing if you had cited a reason why his suggestion is bad. Using application modules rather than more damage modules makes perfect sense. This does not somehow turn it into an oversize cruiser, it means you can apply damage to cruisers - and for that matter, you'll likely have better application if you mean another battleship. It seems you're just offended by the suggestion for no apparent reason whatsoever.
And you might suprise somebody which is always fun. You can't miss anyone hard enough to hurt them. |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2174
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 05:29:36 -
[85] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Glathull wrote:
Fly more battleships. Lose them. Get completely owned in them. That will show CCP how much they need buffs.
Okay, that was sarcasm.
You know what will really really show CCP how much they need to buff BS? Just don't ever fly battleships. Never ever. Ever. At all. Don't even train for them.
That way, when you never fly them and don't even have the skills to fly them, everyone will always listen to you about how much they need buffs.
Dammit. Sarcasm strikes again. I gotta stop that.
I would fly battleships, i WANT to fly battleships, but between the ridiculas warp time (I can litrally go for a bio break while im warping across the bigger systems) and bomber spam, i may as well sit at Jita undock in a pimped golem. Asking for the biggest sub-cap ship, which is supposed to be the most powerful ship, to actually BE the most powerful ship, isn't asking for to much.
The stupid thing is, they are the most powerful ship.. Powerful in tersm of damage output.. that's what CCP said. When they are out, they hurt... if they are used to that effect. The problem or at least the issue that the 'broad masses' have with battleships is that you can't move them anywhere, not on their own and most of the time not with anything else cause anything else just runs away from them or gets bored waiting for them.
I guess you could fly BS gangs with triage carriers though, until you run into a wall of Ishtar anyways. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
497
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 10:35:15 -
[86] - Quote
Regarding the battleship damage chart presented here http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png as a link directly from here http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla
I notice that there are several different colours and that care is taken to directly avoid actually putting names on which ships those colours belong to. No efforts made to specifically cite examples of common usage.
I'm led to suspect that pirate faction battleships make up either the lions share or come in close second to more accessible ships like navy apocs and navy megathrons.
Just for *once* I'd really like to see a bulletpoint format list of things. Let me even provide an example:
Total percentage of pvp damage done by battleships = 100% Navy apoc 14% Navy thron 13.8% Machariel 13% Navy phoon 11% - - - Rokh 1% Navy tempest 1%
Something like this would be much appreciated for the public because WE can see where the game is lacking by virture of raw performance alone. People *will always use the best tool available* and will even instruct you dutifully to train for ******* capitals and sentries as soon as you join their alliance because that's what they want and expect from you as a player. Or whatever. Obviously time and money are not considered valid obstacles to fleet engagements above a certain size but you can bet your left testicle noone is going to deliberately bring an underpowered ship for goodfeels in flying an underdog fleet comp and then wiping.
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
|
Kestral Anneto
Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 11:14:26 -
[87] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Regarding the battleship damage chart presented here http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png as a link directly from here http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla I notice that there are several different colours and that care is taken to directly avoid actually putting names on which ships those colours belong to. No efforts made to specifically cite examples of common usage. I'm led to suspect that pirate faction battleships make up either the lions share or come in close second to more accessible ships like navy apocs and navy megathrons. Just for *once* I'd really like to see a bulletpoint format list of things. Let me even provide an example: Total percentage of pvp damage done by battleships = 100% Navy apoc 14% Navy thron 13.8% Machariel 13% Navy phoon 11% - - - Rokh 1% Navy tempest 1% Something like this would be much appreciated for the public because WE can see where the game is lacking by virture of raw performance alone. People *will always use the best tool available* and will even instruct you dutifully to train for ******* capitals and sentries as soon as you join their alliance because that's what they want and expect from you as a player. Or whatever. Obviously time and money are not considered valid obstacles to fleet engagements above a certain size but you can bet your left testicle noone is going to deliberately bring an underpowered ship for goodfeels in flying an underdog fleet comp and then wiping.
i wonder how much of the damage done by BS's is just camping gates, rather than fleet engagements?
|
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
497
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 11:20:08 -
[88] - Quote
Good luck getting that information. They'll cite being scared of revealing powerful combos and swinging everything in that direction (or similar). And then they turn the other cheek and tell you that they balance the game based on trends and that when a trend becomes too strong they adjust it to push it back down.
And frankly their information gathering process probably isn't that specific. I play on SISI for impressions of how the game functions purely from a combat perspective. TQ is another story, where you have a large 'civilian' population financially supporting a much smaller 'fighting' population, like a real country. The stronger your economy the more isk bloat your fit can afford.
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
|
Incestuous Criticism
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 13:15:12 -
[89] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:You young punks! In my day we used Battleships to mine! (true story) And it was uphill both ways!
Yeah the ROKH was a great mining ship... |
Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 06:49:08 -
[90] - Quote
Sisohiv wrote:If you really want battleship fights, you need to find some low sec worth fighting over. Bombers can't pee in your cornflakes there, hot drops are very unlikely and a fortified battleship fleet could stand up to an Ishtar fleet with a proper doctrine.
Name that low sec? Nope, I go t nothing.
Because who cares about low sec? Don't want to fight? Dock up, nothing of harm can be done. Dock up in 0.0? SBU's and sov loss. |
|
SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
15
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 07:08:36 -
[91] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective. Maybe, just maybe; not every ship is suited for roaming?
The battleship is meant to be deployed with a purpose. It is not some nimble butterfly who has the luxury of just zipping around just because. It is a hard hitting beast. It moves with a goal in mind, a target, for heavy defense of your home.
Roaming around is not what it does and most certainly does not need to have this changed.
Keep in mind that it not just affects you, but your enemies. It means that when they opt to bring cruisers and smaller to roam around and end up on your front door; you are able to enjoy undocking battleships to start sending hay-makers their way. All with the knowledge they can not snap their fingers and have their battleships zip over to match yours.
Granted the whole bombers thing needs to be addressed in an elegant way, but my point stands. The battleship is in a good spot when it comes to the mobility of other ships.
Another thing to consider is resetting some blues so you don't have to travel as far with your battleships to find targets. Or would that be just a bit too dangerous for you? |
Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 08:14:13 -
[92] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective. Maybe, just maybe; not every ship is suited for roaming? The battleship is meant to be deployed with a purpose. It is not some nimble butterfly who has the luxury of just zipping around just because. It is a hard hitting beast. It moves with a goal in mind, a target, for heavy defense of your home. Roaming around is not what it does and most certainly does not need to have this changed. Keep in mind that it not just affects you, but your enemies. It means that when they opt to bring cruisers and smaller to roam around and end up on your front door; you are able to enjoy undocking battleships to start sending hay-makers their way. All with the knowledge they can not snap their fingers and have their battleships zip over to match yours. Granted the whole bombers thing needs to be addressed in an elegant way, but my point stands. The battleship is in a good spot when it comes to the mobility of other ships. Another thing to consider is resetting some blues so you don't have to travel as far with your battleships to find targets. Or would that be just a bit too dangerous for you?
Battleships serve no purpose. The moment they hit the battlefield they are probed, warped to at range for bombs and bombs launched before they can even get aligned out. They are a joke right now. Doesn't even take that many bombs either.
In Null, any type of engagement that matters is going to have a sizable wing of bombers which means battleships are worthless in any engagement that matters, it's really that simple. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15331
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 09:19:56 -
[93] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective. Maybe, just maybe; not every ship is suited for roaming? The battleship is meant to be deployed with a purpose. It is not some nimble butterfly who has the luxury of just zipping around just because. It is a hard hitting beast. It moves with a goal in mind, a target, for heavy defense of your home. Roaming around is not what it does and most certainly does not need to have this changed. Keep in mind that it not just affects you, but your enemies. It means that when they opt to bring cruisers and smaller to roam around and end up on your front door; you are able to enjoy undocking battleships to start sending hay-makers their way. All with the knowledge they can not snap their fingers and have their battleships zip over to match yours. Granted the whole bombers thing needs to be addressed in an elegant way, but my point stands. The battleship is in a good spot when it comes to the mobility of other ships. Another thing to consider is resetting some blues so you don't have to travel as far with your battleships to find targets. Or would that be just a bit too dangerous for you? Battleships serve no purpose. The moment they hit the battlefield they are probed, warped to at range for bombs and bombs launched before they can even get aligned out. They are a joke right now. Doesn't even take that many bombs either. In Null, any type of engagement that matters is going to have a sizable wing of bombers which means battleships are worthless in any engagement that matters, it's really that simple.
It would take over 100 bombs to bring down a baltec fleet. Only shield doctrines that use ships without a resist bonus are easy targets. The reason you dont see BS fleets is due to three things.
T3 being massivly overpowered Ishtars abusing sentries ( not just sentry firepower but their better tracking) logistics.
All three need to be sorted, the battleships themselves dont need any buffs.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 11:06:07 -
[94] - Quote
One-part fix would be to relegate sentry use to battleship hulls - increase the volume of sentries and up battleships' dronebays.
1) Ishtar won't be able to sport more than 1 set of sentries, if a full set at all. 2) Sentries' damage and tracking stay the same 3) Battleships might sneak into the meta of fleet warfare again due to 1)
If bandwidth stays the same, then an Apocalypse battleship with its 50 Mbit/sec drone bandwidth, would be able to wield the same number of sentries as it does now - two.
Someone lobby for this, because I'm le tired. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1547
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 12:18:19 -
[95] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:One-part fix would be to relegate sentry use to battleship hulls - increase the volume of sentries and up battleships' dronebays.
1) Ishtar won't be able to sport more than 1 set of sentries, if a full set at all.... btw: little offtopic here. Recently unpacked my old Gila (bought in 2010 and seen many different spaces since). Found that Gila can no more use heavy drones. Yes, i recall something about changes to drones. So the question: how did it happen so Gila was 'changed' and Ishtar was not? For me it looks very strange.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2182
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 12:23:45 -
[96] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:One-part fix would be to relegate sentry use to battleship hulls - increase the volume of sentries and up battleships' dronebays.
1) Ishtar won't be able to sport more than 1 set of sentries, if a full set at all.... btw: little offtopic here. Recently unpacked my old Gila (bought in 2010 and seen many different spaces since). Found that Gila can no more use heavy drones. Yes, i recall something about changes to drones. So the question: how did it happen so Gila was 'changed' and Ishtar was not? For me it looks very strange.
Basically, the Guristas ships were changed in such a way that they now receive bonuses to drones in their size class. The Worm has amazing light drones (2 of them), the Gila has amazing medium drones (2 of them) and the Rattlesnake has amazing heavy or sentry drones (2 of them) or a Gecko. |
Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1426
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 13:09:12 -
[97] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships or a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.
Preferably specific battleship hulls will specialize in each of these rolls.
A good practical example is the Rattlesnake: It's damage bonus is to MISSILES, not to Cruises or Torps. This allows it to project terrific firepower onto frigates if it chooses to fit rapid lights. This flexibility should be available to more battleships.
Where should they commence from?
- frigates and work up - battle ships and work up and down - Titans and work down
Asking as I favor such a balance, but it needs to follow some theory such as "1 trit = 1 hit point" math and distribution across hull, armor and shields
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1429
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 13:09:12 -
[98] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships or a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.
Preferably specific battleship hulls will specialize in each of these rolls.
A good practical example is the Rattlesnake: It's damage bonus is to MISSILES, not to Cruises or Torps. This allows it to project terrific firepower onto frigates if it chooses to fit rapid lights. This flexibility should be available to more battleships.
Where should they commence from?
- frigates and work up - battle ships and work up and down - Titans and work down
Asking as I favor such a balance, but it needs to follow some theory such as "1 trit = 1 hit point" math and distribution across hull, armor and shields
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Scira Crimson
No Tax No
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 10:43:28 -
[99] - Quote
I read that CCP stated, that they do no plan on changing the warp speed of battle ships because they want more tactical depth. This sounds reasonalbe, but I still think that this is buying a small advantage with a big disadvantage.
A game needs to be fun and thus its important to keep up FLUID GAMEPLAY. Jumping throuh gates and warping, espacially with battleships, is the very definition of "not fun".
Its never a good idea to balance game mechanics around tediousness.
Why not change warp speeds to 10,9,8,6 (depending on ship classes) and balance the ships strengths and weaknesses elsewhere?
I am too new to make good suggestion for specific balance changes, but I think avoiding tediousness and lameness in any game is universally true for good game design.
Another point: Why shouldnt battleships not be slightly better overall than other ships? They have a high costs.
When I get into fleet PvP one day I dont want to see only paper frigates which cost <20 mio, but I want to see player who invest into the win and be rewarded for their bravery.
And I dont want to play fleet PvP when it takes 2h until the fight actually starts...
High mobility and flow is of UTMOST IMPORTANCE in any good PvP game!
(if BS have only 2 AUs I could also play chess via mail... would basically be the same...) |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
514
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 11:49:39 -
[100] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Regarding the battleship damage chart presented here http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png as a link directly from here http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla I notice that there are several different colours and that care is taken to directly avoid actually putting names on which ships those colours belong to. No efforts made to specifically cite examples of common usage. I'm led to suspect that pirate faction battleships make up either the lions share or come in close second to more accessible ships like navy apocs and navy megathrons. Just for *once* I'd really like to see a bulletpoint format list of things. Let me even provide an example: Total percentage of pvp damage done by battleships = 100% Navy apoc 14% Navy thron 13.8% Machariel 13% Navy phoon 11% - - - Rokh 1% Navy tempest 1% Something like this would be much appreciated for the public because WE can see where the game is lacking by virture of raw performance alone. People *will always use the best tool available* and will even instruct you dutifully to train for ******* capitals and sentries as soon as you join their alliance because that's what they want and expect from you as a player. Or whatever. Obviously time and money are not considered valid obstacles to fleet engagements above a certain size but you can bet your left testicle noone is going to deliberately bring an underpowered ship for goodfeels in flying an underdog fleet comp and then wiping. i wonder how much of the damage done by BS's is just camping gates, rather than fleet engagements?
Given that Napoc with Triage is an Ishtar hard counter for structure fights, it's probably mainly fleets for the first one. Machariel also works well in fleets right now. Not sure who is using the Mega Navy or Typhoon Navy though.
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15360
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 12:22:24 -
[101] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Regarding the battleship damage chart presented here http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png as a link directly from here http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla I notice that there are several different colours and that care is taken to directly avoid actually putting names on which ships those colours belong to. No efforts made to specifically cite examples of common usage. I'm led to suspect that pirate faction battleships make up either the lions share or come in close second to more accessible ships like navy apocs and navy megathrons. Just for *once* I'd really like to see a bulletpoint format list of things. Let me even provide an example: Total percentage of pvp damage done by battleships = 100% Navy apoc 14% Navy thron 13.8% Machariel 13% Navy phoon 11% - - - Rokh 1% Navy tempest 1% Something like this would be much appreciated for the public because WE can see where the game is lacking by virture of raw performance alone. People *will always use the best tool available* and will even instruct you dutifully to train for ******* capitals and sentries as soon as you join their alliance because that's what they want and expect from you as a player. Or whatever. Obviously time and money are not considered valid obstacles to fleet engagements above a certain size but you can bet your left testicle noone is going to deliberately bring an underpowered ship for goodfeels in flying an underdog fleet comp and then wiping. i wonder how much of the damage done by BS's is just camping gates, rather than fleet engagements? Given that Napoc with Triage is an Ishtar hard counter for structure fights, it's probably mainly fleets for the first one. Machariel also works well in fleets right now. Not sure who is using the Mega Navy or Typhoon Navy though.
Phhon is a great anti cruiser platform. As for the mega...
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1172
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:17:17 -
[102] - Quote
Faridah wrote:Maybe defender missile launchers could finally find it's place. You load them with those new blitzing fast bomb-seeking warheads?
This has been suggested multiple times by both players and CSM members. Apparently it is too difficult for CCP to implement relative to the payoff. (Effort/reward ratio too high.)
That being said, I really like and support the idea of turning Defender missiles into anti-bomb missiles.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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DHB WildCat
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
421
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Posted - 2015.03.09 16:32:43 -
[103] - Quote
So I have a little experience flying Battleships. Ask Chainsaw he'll tell ya 8P. Anyways, here is why "in my opinion" Battleships slowly died over the years and are now useless.
A long time ago CNR's were able to do 11km/sec. Machariels 30km/sec. It was the day of the nanos and even more deadly was the nano Phoon! Orbiting a target at 30km with the agility of a cruiser thanks to non stacked nanos in the lows. Able to warp in less than 3 seconds. This was the hay-day of the Battleship. However since then CCP has .............
1) Nerfed Nanos
2) Nerfed webs! Biggest downfall imo for battleships, all webs used to be 90% which means Battleships could hit small ****
3) BOMBS .......... **** Bombs, but you know whats even worse than bombs?
4) Titan doomsdays. In the old days a Battleship could tank the AOE DD, now they drop you, kill you, and warp off.
5) Fighter Bombers and Fighters ..... Before Drone Damage mods you, in a Battleship, could tank a mother ships drones. Yes they used to be called mother ships. Now you just die!
6) Blops.... Hot Drops ..... nothing you can do against them, and you are not fast enough to get away.
7) Remote Reps ... yes RR used to not exist and it was glorious. Now a single RR logi can rep all of your damage, you have no chance and oh yeah you cant catch them. Also how the **** can 3 vexors with rr (non bonused) tank a 1500 DPS Vindi...... **** that!
8) Warp Speeds - It just takes forever to move around. Which makes roaming boring (20-30 minutes to go 10 jumps) and dangerous since you cannot escape someone chasing you.
9) Cant hit small ****! Missiles are horrible against cruisers and below. Turrets have a hard time tracking..... yes even when target is scrammed and dual webbed. Once again web nerfed ****** Battleships hardcore!
10) T3 - Lets face it, these stupid CRUISERS have more tank, more dps than most Battleships, are faster, and many have awesome bonuses like neut amount, scram range, web, range, ect.... why the hell would you ever fly a BS.
11) Eve's Population - Again, back in the day, a large fleet was maybe 20-30 guys. Now fleets are in the thousands. Battleships take full damage from all sub super class ships. Battleships just dont have the EHP to survive against the blob, even with RR.
12) CCP - So afraid to reward old players. This games core is based around skill points and training. You should be rewarded for playing 10 years and training to get to more powerful ships... which used to be Battleships. However after hundreds of Battleship nerfs, and Hundreds of Cruiser / Frig buffs. The smaller ships with hundreds of thousands of skillpoints less are almost as good. CCP went the cowards way and killed Battleships from killing small ships.
I could go on forever but I am now officially pissed off and want to stop. There are hundreds of reasons that Battleships are dead
and it makes me really sad. |
Alice Saki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125777
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:16:49 -
[104] - Quote
Hear Hear!
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:26:49 -
[105] - Quote
Word, DHB.
BS need an overall EHP & DPS/DPS application buff, if they want to keep the slow-warping brick concept alive. Marauders - now there's a good direction, but again, a single logi will shut down your damage entirely. So much for "Battle"-ship.
It has been Cruisers Online for some years now. |
Alice Saki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125779
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:28:29 -
[106] - Quote
I do like a Battleship, Suppose I could go spend 3 to 4bil on a Marauder fit....
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Wraith Soulsark
Black VooDoo Asassins The Kadeshi
1
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:30:18 -
[107] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:You young punks! In my day we used Battleships to mine! (true story) And it was uphill both ways!
you forgot the space snow it was uphill both ways in the space snow and we didnt have shoes either we had to duct tape newspaper to our feet |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:45:59 -
[108] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:I do like a Battleship, Suppose I could go spend 3 to 4bil on a Marauder fit....
Bastion module needs to be available to T1 Battleships. Or its lesser version at the very least!
Currently, a Bhaalgorn, and pretty much every other pirate/faction battleship hull, can do 190k EHP or 1.2k DPS active tank; the Legion 160k/1.2k and the Proteus 225k/1.2k.
The Scylla patch will reduce T3 EHP, but it's not enough. |
Alice Saki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125797
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:50:25 -
[109] - Quote
Oh I know...
Many Bhaals Lost to Moros...
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Kestral Anneto
Bentusi Heavy Industries
60
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:24:11 -
[110] - Quote
why not give the new entosis link thing to battleships only? would give BS's a much needed role. |
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Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2224
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:30:23 -
[111] - Quote
I don't think so. With these fights over systems and stations and what not, the actual capturing will take place after the fighting is over. Kind of like Rorquals building POSes with a fleet sitting there to protect it.
Also if you made the Entosis Link BS only, you wouldn't really have the fluid sort of thing CCP wants to achieve and roaming gangs centered around battleships really aren't all that roaming. |
DHB WildCat
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
423
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:52:22 -
[112] - Quote
Just purposed an idea for web changes and pirate faction Battleship changes on the faetures and ideas forum. Please like and support if you like the ideas. I really want Battleships to be competative again!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5566518#post5566518 |
Pyralissa
Kite Co. Space Trucking
9
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:58:03 -
[113] - Quote
Bombs invariably get blamed for the demise of Battleships, but bombs aren't a threat to a Hyperion undocking to add a killing punch to a HAC gang. Warp changes and the rather steady stream of skirmish platforms released have done a lot more to kill off the battleship then bombs have.
Battleships are, at their core, brawling platforms. While some of them have great range and decent speed it's nothing compared to what skirmish platforms like the Orthrus are capable of. And that just means you'll either never catch a target you are chasing, or escape someone running you down. This makes battleships a huge liability to a small gang and, this is particularly critical, unfun to fly.
I've seen the Macharial and Barghest floated around as proof that battleships are still being used, but both are basically cruisers masquerading as battleships (particularly the mach with it's enhanced warp speed). The Raven and Typhoon are examples of ships that should be thriving in the current skirmish-first meta, but both simply don't enough speed and agility to compete. It's only when you get into the pirate faction ships, which are ships designed to break the mold of their hull size, that you see battleships being deployed in any manner outside of the handful of battleship doctrines which survive in large fleet actions. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2015.03.09 19:09:34 -
[114] - Quote
Too many changes for my cup of tea.
I'd just introduce a new 90% Webifier Module with high powergrid requirments -> http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stasis_Webifier
Officer webs already exist with similar stats, but that's officer - Would be great to have a lesser version (10-12 km range w/ 90% effect) as a battleship-dedicated module. |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2666
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Posted - 2015.03.09 23:42:41 -
[115] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Aralyn Cormallen wrote:I feel your pain At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay This is trotted out every time someone brings this up and its BS (also along with isboxer cheater crap). Sure bombers are very effective against BS. They is what they are for. But a few AF in the fleet and well the bombers are no more. Oh bombs you say? Well then BS would be used in LS.
Let me tell you about how effective AF's are in antibomber support considering the ship (Bomber) is on grid generally less than 3 seconds.
They are useless.
The fact that you think AF's are a solution just shows you have no clue how a proper bomber FC does his work.
Bomber FC places his bombers in 3/4 wings around the edge of the action. Bomber FC probes enemy fleet. He then fleetwarps his wings at 40k (ish). The bombers drop bombs and immediately warp out and reload at a safe. |
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