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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3885
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Posted - 2015.02.22 11:57:52 -
[1] - Quote
As some of the more veteran members of the forums may be aware, the topic of SP remapping and/or buying is a very common one, and has been for years and years. It shows up in all sorts of subforums, and has been discussed very thoroughly because of the number of times it's been brought up over a long period of time. Because of this, new threads on it immediately run into rule #17 of the forums:
Quote:Forum rules17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.
For almost all other topics, invoking rule #17 means actually redirecting the discussion to an already existing thread about it. Due to its oft-reposted nature, though, this has not been possible for threads about SP remapping and/or buying. That's not fair to people who actually wish to discuss it, and we do not wish to stifle good discussions. Because of this, we are creating this centralized Official Skill Points remapping/buyingGäó thread to serve as the gathering place for discussion about it. Any future threads on this same topic will be locked and redirected here for discussion.
To emphasize: this thread is on the topic of balance, changes, or feedback on the mechanic of remapping and/or acquiring Skillpoints in different ways than the current game mechanics allow. Posts outside this topic will be moderated/deleted.
Please keep the discussion and feedback civil and constructive!
A list of relatively recent (now locked) threads on the topic will be added here asap for reference.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Oscae
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
26
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Posted - 2015.02.22 12:12:31 -
[2] - Quote
Hey look Ma I made it to the top of a thread!
In other news, I personally think that this would be a godsend, as I have a habit of not making alts, so my one character now has really poor industry skills and just random other junk that I wish I hadn't trained cause now I'm never going to use them.
I think it should be quite costly however, but also proportionate to the ammount of SP wishing to be reallocated, a 6month toon shouldn't have to pay half a billion to remap 2mil SP and a 10 year vet shouldn't be able to remap 100mil SP for the same price.
There is a closed thread just below called PLEX for SP boosting, though instead of boosting how about remapping? I think this could work, you could redeem plex into SP tokens of differing values etc. 1, 5, 10mil SP remaps, have them market tradeable and such, just a thought
Lastly I appreciate the creation of these centralised threads, hopefully we'll see something good come from them
Oscae |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
394
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Posted - 2015.02.22 12:21:39 -
[3] - Quote
This will be a useful consolidation of the discussion. Now let's all be happy constructive posters!
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Aran Hotchkiss
Phoibe Enterprises
63
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Posted - 2015.02.22 12:33:47 -
[4] - Quote
I'm going to keep this brief, because I really don't want to let myself get snared into this topic.
Firstly, is the ^ idea of PLEX/isk (reasonable to treat the two as interchangeable) for SP re-allocation favours wealthier players - they are much more readily able to keep their SP pool as a constantly shifting, constantly min-maxxed to follow whatever the flavour of the month is. Pay to Win has been thrashed to death so hard, that the coprse of the horse is gone and there is now a huge open-cut strip mine in place from all the whip strokes deeper than that hole in Russia that goes several kilometres down.
Secondly EvE loves attaching consequences to action/failure to action, and personally I quite like it - adds a bit of delayed gratification to things rather than going "Hmmm, I want to fly vagabonds but I can't, I know I'll remapp those skillpoints I spent almost getting into exhumers and be away with it" and I fully expect if that were possible I'd get bored of vagabonds very quickly and end up just doing what everyone else would do and follow the flavour of the month. I spent what to me was a long time getting into guardians with logistics five, I'm yet to actually fly one in any sort of fleet because reasons but meh that's life. Having to stick to your choices adds Stoicism to a game that really can be quite callous. So I ultimately feel this negatively affects the players of the game in terms of patience and satisfaction by replacing delayed gratification with instant gratification.
Thirdly... Character Bazaar's exist as a, if not ideal, then possible and established alternative, that currently function under the status quo.
So, in order, paying for remapping is Pay to win, trashes the game, and alternatives exist.
Shamelessly stole this line,
Alternatively, QFT
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
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Mag's
the united
19075
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Posted - 2015.02.22 12:46:11 -
[5] - Quote
Wow you guys really are suckers for punishment.
It is of course, a big NO from me. So far, no one has shown any good reasons why this is needed and what it fixes.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11882
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Posted - 2015.02.22 12:53:15 -
[6] - Quote
Might as well throw out a "Space Barbies" thread so we can knock out the last super-redundant topic here in F&I as well.
As to the topic I have very rarely heard worse ideas in my whole life, and I'm in the freaking Army for goodness sakes.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn Resonance.
102
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Posted - 2015.02.22 12:55:48 -
[7] - Quote
With this and the AFK Cloaking thread, the forums should almost be cleansed up, until a new T3 Battleship sticky thread shows up
Also, a No from me as well. EVE has always been unforgiving, why should that change? You were a rookie and were not sure how to train, and it became a failure/mess? We've all been there, and EVE has been unforgiving for all of us. No reason to change that, and with the increasing amount of non-ISD helpers in the rookie help channel as well, there's a lot of guidance available. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2721
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Posted - 2015.02.22 14:39:17 -
[8] - Quote
No from me still, pay to win is bad. |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
227
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Posted - 2015.02.22 15:11:25 -
[9] - Quote
Reported for redundant
Also Pay to win
Also dumbass idea |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1729
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Posted - 2015.02.22 15:21:57 -
[10] - Quote
Just because other games have it, doesn't means EVE has to have such thing.
Never liked this idea in any form realy.
Akrasjel Lanate
General Director(CEO) of Naquatech Conglomerate
Executor of Naquatech Syndicate
Citizen of Solitude
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3887
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Posted - 2015.02.22 15:42:52 -
[11] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:Reported for redundant Which it is not. As to why this thread was opened, I gladly re-post something I previously stated in the thread on (AFK)Cloaking (albeit rephrased a little):
The reason this thread was started does have something to do with our work, as reports to us on *new* Skill Point remap/buying threads have been a regular occurrence. We also get complaint reports sent to us and CCP on a regular basis by the people whose threads on the subject we have closed, asking the question on were to discuss it then. Whether we find the subject worth a discussion or even holding merit is irrelevant, others do think so and continue to bring up the subject, so to a certain extend they do have a point.
So in short we judged it best to have one focal point, one open thread on the subject. And that, indeed, saves us work in the long run. It also saves frustration by the people that do want to discuss this topic, which in the end is even more important.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
672
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Posted - 2015.02.22 16:06:37 -
[12] - Quote
Oh damn... Please no PLEX/ISK for skillpoints. 1 extra remap per year for a PLEX would be ok, buying skillpoints would ruin EVE on the long run.
You really don't want to do this.
Pay to win comes to mind.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
228
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Posted - 2015.02.22 16:12:47 -
[13] - Quote
And mister ISD man, i recognize what you are attempting to do and I applaud it for a noble intention. Removing all the useless topics that we report as useless on a daily basis is laudable. Maybe even more then merely laudable...
But making a big place where people can dump trash instead of sorting it in a bunch of smaller places doesn't stop it from A) being a trash heap and B) from dumb people opening up more useless topics like we saw with the whole cloaking thing.
People were still opening up cloaking topics like noone's business... Hence i stand by my reporting of the thread for redundant while lauding the existence of the thread in theory.
Keep up the good work... |
Solairen
Matsuko Holding
17
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Posted - 2015.02.22 16:54:10 -
[14] - Quote
Man I like all these ISD consolidation threads. Makes it easier to find old threads on ideas, and keeps clutter down.
Keep up the good work guys - looking forward to seeing more of them in the future. |
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2015.02.22 17:03:16 -
[15] - Quote
Posting the Tippia's copypasta for why buying or remapping skillpoints is bad
It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3094
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Posted - 2015.02.22 19:51:29 -
[16] - Quote
Good to have this topic consolidated in one place so the Devs know where to go if they ever need reminding what a terrible idea this is.
Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong.
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Debora Tsung
Die Woge des Wahnsinns Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
1474
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Posted - 2015.02.22 19:57:26 -
[17] - Quote
I'm a genius, I liked and thenn unliked this thread just so I can say I'll never support this idea. ever.
EDIT: It feels like my own little dislike button.
EDIT2: ISD ERZWAL I see what you did there.
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Fighting back is more fun than not.
Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
572
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 19:59:17 -
[18] - Quote
Oscae wrote:In other news, I personally think that this would be a godsend, as I have a habit of not making alts...
but others do..
Nope!
signature
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Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
16
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Posted - 2015.02.22 20:15:49 -
[19] - Quote
IF SP could be bought(aka pay to win), I would quit. No questions asked.
Big f'n no from me. |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
232
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 20:43:24 -
[20] - Quote
At some point fozzie or rize (i think) said he'd like to add a "declare war" or "put bounty" button on posts instead of a "-1" button...
Wonder if that'd allow you to declare war/place bounty on the ISD:) (assuming that ever became a thing o:-D )
That said i do like how Mr ISD man liked the post in which i explain why i feel this thread is stupid and wrong!
Thanks Mister ISD man! |
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Corinne Avuli
Victory over the Sun Destiny's Call
0
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Posted - 2015.02.22 21:23:32 -
[21] - Quote
I would like a remap. But i would like it just once. Like CCP allows a remap of 2 mio SP for every 2 years a character plays. Like the Change of the attributes.
ATM your Char reaches 2 Years it allows you to remap 2 mio sp, you do not need to do it. |
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.02.22 23:12:19 -
[22] - Quote
No to buying anything (SP, remap, reset etc). Instead of that we have to get rid out learning implants, set all attributes to 28 -30 and pay isk the ppl who have implants for sale :P |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
834
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 23:21:29 -
[23] - Quote
Not in favor of paying for SP, not in favor of paying for remaps, not in favor of attribute implants, not in favor of remaps, not in favor of attributes at all.
SP should accumulate at the same rate for all subscribers. Eve players should be encouraged to get out in space and interact with each other, with a focus on improving knowledge of game mechanics and player skill vice character skill. Character skill should be a steady and dependable thing, with no advantages to wealthier players (whether in game or out of game).
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
125
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Posted - 2015.02.22 23:30:51 -
[24] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Wow you guys really are suckers for punishment. It is of course, a big NO from me. So far, no one has shown any good reasons why this is needed and what it fixes.
/10char
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Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
559
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Posted - 2015.02.23 06:56:23 -
[25] - Quote
No to gameplay-related microtransactions. Nuff said.
Overhaul Dscan!
Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4070
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Posted - 2015.02.23 08:31:41 -
[26] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:No to gameplay-related microtransactions. Nuff said. That's funny. PLEX is a micro transaction... AURUM is a micro transaction.
FT Diomedes wrote:Character skill should be a steady and dependable thing, with no advantages to wealthier players (whether in game or out of game). Great - then we can get rid of PLEX as well since it gives advantages to older (wealthier) players.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4070
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Posted - 2015.02.23 08:46:52 -
[27] - Quote
What's interesting is that at one point both Clone Upgrade costs and the 30-day Skill Queue were both considered sacred, and untouchable. The reality has less to do with pay-to-win and micro transactions and more to do with the fact that established players who have invested years into EVE in training up their characters don't want to give up any advantage. It also competes with the character bazaar, so that's touched on a few nerves as well. Allowing SP for PLEX would probably impact PLEX prices, and this is probably the hidden reason most object: It would simply require more effort to play for free.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Anthar Thebess
883
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Posted - 2015.02.23 08:58:43 -
[28] - Quote
No for pay to win! People can already buy in game items and SP for real money. ($->PLEX->ISK ->stuff , characters) We don't need to go more into this. The only thing that can be accepted is renaming characters , but only if you are bought off market.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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PREDATORoPL GALP
1
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Posted - 2015.02.23 09:11:09 -
[29] - Quote
This changes destroy basic rule in this game.
NO for PAY to play ( or win )
older chars have more can more do in game or use ships.
after changes everyone with big real wallet get acces to everything.
at now many chars ( not old chars ) are specialized - pvp, pve, production, incursion, exploration, wh life, capital ship use.
CCP want waste and destroy all this what players create from years ? |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
712
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Posted - 2015.02.23 10:02:15 -
[30] - Quote
I see no reason for a change to the skill system, it is reasonably fair and equitable and as far as I know cannot be gamed which makes it a rare thing in EvE.
As to the purchase of SP this is something I will always oppose and the removal of attributes and there replacement with a flat rate of SP gain would remove the need for Neural remaps.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Beta Maoye
57
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Posted - 2015.02.23 10:21:01 -
[31] - Quote
Ain't we already buying and selling skill points? The character bazaar has all kinds of SP packages for sale, jump freighter alt, flagship alt, industrial alt, wormhole alt, mission alt....etc. Player just have to pay and he will have a character that has skill points that needed months or years to acquire. So don't get nervous about skill points trading.
The bottom line is whether the SP market should be player driven or CCP provides. I want the SP market remains to be player driven. I would like a mechanic that can facilitate verteran players to sell skill points directly rather than selling their alts. Players are provided with tools to extract skill points from their characters and can give these skill points to other characters or put these skill points for sale in player market. Players who buy these skill points can apply them to whatever skills they like on a one time base. That way the number of skill points supplied will be limited by number of players and their time of investment in the game. Therefore the game will not be suddenly flooded with new players with tens of million of skill points, but also facilitates the trading of skill points among players. This skill points market will open door to other options such as ships/modules bundled with skill points for sale.
As regarding the remapping, I would like a one year trained equivalent of skill points remapping is available to all players per year for free. :) |
Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers
96
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Posted - 2015.02.23 12:09:32 -
[32] - Quote
The only way I would ever be okay with an SP remap would be if it cost a plex AND if there was a net loss of SP when they move to the new skill, for arguments sake let's 25%. So lets say you want to remap 100,000 SP, you'd lose 25,000 in the remapping process.
Any way of buying SP is totally unacceptable. |
Alexhandr Shkarov
Swamphole Inc.
7
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Posted - 2015.02.23 12:37:57 -
[33] - Quote
Hey!
I wrote a topic before (referenced in the OP) about newbro skill remaps, and while it may not be the best solution, I do think it's something to consider and carefully look for from a fresh perspective, rather than from the view of an experienced player. I have therefore felt the need to break your comment down a little, and give my vision on it.
Note: This post has been written purely out of the view towards newbro's younger than two months old.
Keras Authion wrote: It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
This depends. In my opinion for anyone who is playing for a longer period of time, I feel it is something we need to look into as a potential idea that could lay ground to other idea's. In my eyes, it could be beneficial to couple the rookie chat and status with a single, once-per-account remap that you can do upto a certain amount of time. (So ex: A player has upto 2 months after starting to remap their skills. This does not impact the general gameplay significantly, but gives newbro's a potentional feeling that they aren't thrown into the deep instantly, which in turn may help with user retention.
Quote: It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game.
This part of the game has been discussed by CCP and CSM9 in the Winter Summit: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM9-WS-D1.pdf - Page 13.
Quote:Removal of attributes was also mentioned, but the idea is still in quite an early stage. ItGÇÖs something [CCP GamesGÇÖ devs] want to do as itGÇÖs on the level as learning skills, so that people donGÇÖt have to get locked into training skills in a non-optimal order for use, in order to train at the optimal speed. There is still some discussion around what would possibly be done with learning implants (keep them, flat bonus, something else). There are also questions as to what the rate would be with the changes. Ali [Aras] brought up some feedback that some veteran players like the space it gives you to optimize your character, but overall supports removing attributes. There was also the point of learning implants [as a] disincentive [to] PVP, especially in null and WH.
The above quote directly comes from the meeting minutes. Potentially, the attributes may be removed completely if CCP pushes for it, which makes this argument moot.
Quote:It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences
If you indeed would implement paid remaps of skillpoints, you are correct. What I am advocating is to give newbro's a slight safety net that in the long run makes barely any impact but for a new player could mean the world. We allow them to learn about EVE instead of getting them stuck right off the bat.
In case of the newbro approach it would not, as it would still be a choice that is permanent in result, and requires planning and forethought. What you do help out with, however, is to help define that core principle of consequence by showing them how permanent it will be after they end their rookie period. Less of a cliff to get started, but still as much consequence for the long run.
Quote:It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It helps new players to actually assess what they want to do, and feel like they can still change it once in order to get used to the game. That makes the idea of goal-setting, progression and achievement for the newbro's a lot better. But yes, do not use this for established characters, as it would be counterintuitive. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
970
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 12:42:15 -
[34] - Quote
As mentioned in all the linked previous threads I'm happy with the ay the system is now.
Regarding P2W elements are already in the game that support this to a degree, better ships, expensive faction and officer gear etc.
The current skill queue/remaps/implants setup is one of the few things that is not P2W in any way since you can't pay to be more skilled in a given skillset than another player. Even buying a pre-built character off the bazaar doesn't give you any more skills than a character with the same skillset, it just gives you them immediately (and someone else trained the character first). This in no ay gives a player the player learnt skills to use that character though.
So for me it's fine as it is, leave it alone please. Step away from the functioning area of the game, nothing to see here... |
Wadiest Yong
Porcus Volans Sev3rance
5
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Posted - 2015.02.23 13:16:22 -
[35] - Quote
This one really touches the core of the game, living with the consequences of one's choices. Granted, when you first start playing you do not really understand the extent of your choices, and new players are fooled by the number of skills and the apparent length of training times of their first skill queues (wait until you want or need jump drive calibration 5). Mitigating the consequences of choices by selling SP in any shape or form for cash is pay-to-win, and not very inventive from a game design perspective.
- Perhaps clearer guidance on training schedules (as we do in many corporations) would help people on their way better. Although the certificate system was reworked a while ago it still holds many irrelevancies, and above all, it is not set up in a way that actually guides newer players. Yes, a "start here" arrow on a flow chart could be a better approach. Not all handholding is bad, especially in a game with more skills than most other games. While I've always appreciated the fact that one gets more out of Eve (or any other serious game) by scanning the web for player written guides, it's not everybody's cup of tea to spend time on this. - I've never heard of players quitting Eve for having to invest training time in new skills, so player retention is most likely not at stake here. That's why we have the character bazaar. - Large alliances can (and most likely will) fund the remapping of SP for part of their troops if you allow SP for plex, making the (nullsec) game even more unbalanced than it already is (extra range on jump drives ? boost your blops fleet numbers ? extra supers ? increase capital production ?). - Getting rid of learning implants ? Why ? These are tools that allow us to give some leverage to the choices we make as pilots. The rock-paper-scissors aspect of pvp is not only reflected in the way we chose and fit ships, but also in the SP we spent in the use of the hull and mods. Makes it more all the more interesting and challenging. - Getting rid of attributes on skills and mods ? This takes away the freedom the learning implants give us to accomplish training goals faster. - Getting rid of both attributes and learning implants takes away all leverage at the same time, and indeed starts forcing people into considering spending cash on skill points (I doubt skill ranks would be brought down, it wasn't in the csm minutes) because of - let's be honest - long training times. Great for extra income, terrible for the game. Being "locked into training skills in a non-optimal order for use, in order to train at the optimal speed" is not really a time issue for skills with ranks below say 6. It only becomes an issue when trying to specialize in several directions at the same time. If I were to change anything, I'd give an extra attribute remap during the first two years of a character, and an extra one every two years afterwards to boost some more diversification. A second change could be to review the skill ranks.
But cash for sp ? Nah. P2W has no place in a subscription based game. |
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
174
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Posted - 2015.02.23 17:23:31 -
[36] - Quote
For the record I would NOT be in favour of introducing a method of buying skill points and/or skill remaps using any combination of ISK, Aurum, or 'real life' cash. I think the way we get remaps is fine as it is. I'm not entirely sure how I received mine but I have several unused remaps on each of my six chars/alts.
I have actually started using some of my chars remaps recently just in case CCP decide to ditch the attribute points and learning implants/implants. Use it or lose it as they say.
As usual our standard comment applies. Implants and attribute points are not broken and are working as intended. Please redirect man/woman hours to actual broken elements of the game or to introduce new content. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
465
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Posted - 2015.02.23 19:06:43 -
[37] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: What's interesting is that at one point both Clone Upgrade costs and the 30-day Skill Queue were both considered sacred, and untouchable. False. Neither change was opposed by the player base at the level that the change contemplated itt is. Actually, many people were in favor of the two changes you cite. Also, it was a 24 hour limit and not a 30-day limit. Obvious misrepresentation and lack of knowledge. Your argument lacks validity.
Arthur Aihaken wrote: The reality has less to do with pay-to-win and micro transactions and more to do with the fact that established players who have invested years into EVE in training up their characters don't want to give up any advantage. Wrong once again. Such sp remapping would only benefit veteran players more because they would be able to skill into whatever meta was fotm so much easier, and even for caps, which no new player would ever be able to do.
Arthur Aihaken wrote: It also competes with the character bazaar, so that's touched on a few nerves as well. Allowing SP for PLEX would probably impact PLEX prices, and this is probably the hidden reason most object: It would simply require more effort to play for free. The character bazaar is not p2w. Someone created that character and had to spend time skilling the character. Someone had to keep the character active through subscription fees or plex. It is not play for free.
Your arguments are so bad you should feel ashamed that you ever posted. But I doubt you will.
Go back to wow, etc.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
561
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Posted - 2015.02.23 19:24:29 -
[38] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:No to gameplay-related microtransactions. Nuff said. That's funny. PLEX is a micro transaction... AURUM is a micro transaction.
Neither of those directly affects gameplay. They would not be accepted by the EVE base otherwise.
Aurum directly caused the Jita Riots in fact. Or, to be more specific, the suggestion (in a leaked CCP email) that Aurum might eventually be used for things like ships and ammo. Using it as an example of a harmless MT shows that you don't know what you're talking about - we had to fight the company to make sure it stayed harmless.
Overhaul Dscan!
Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7480
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Posted - 2015.02.23 19:39:23 -
[39] - Quote
There is no "right" or "wrong" answer with regards to skillpoints. Merely what you find relevant now and irrelevant later... good for X situation and bad for Y situation. Either way, the power of the skills you train is always there. You just aren't using ALL of them at any given time (for whatever reason). And that is part of the "process" of this game.
Example: when I was young I trained up MINING skills. I was pretty good at it and had a decent skillplan incorporating mining with PvP skills. Then one day I realized that I really did not like mining in any serious way and did not want those skills to be on my PvP character. So I abandoned the skillplan and focused purely on PvP.
Fast forward a few years... I have near perfect subcapital PvP skills... but the mining skills remain... a remnant of a different stage in my evolution in EVE. Then mining barges were changed/buffed. I took a look at them... and I saw the Procurer. If ever there was a bait ship, that was it. Tanky, could fit full tackle, everyone underestimated it, and it also had the capacity to kill "small threats." I got 3. Now I sometimes sit in a low-sec belt... mining... using those same skills that I had abandoned because I hated them and found little use for (at that time).
The point is... you never know when you will eventually you will find use for the skills that you trained before and find useless today. And since there is no cap on how many skills you can accumulate, sooner or later you may find yourself working on those skills you previously abandoned. In a larger sense... no time is "wasted" training any particular skill.
Other things to consider:
- It will make newbies think that more SP = more powerful (which is not exactly true as I have pointed out consistently in my usual "Skillpoint Spiel" (see the link in my sig below)).
- It deprives the newbie of the "process experience" of being new... which is necessary as it teaches newbies how to work with what they have rather than just throw money at a perceived "problem."
- It makes the beginning experiences of newbies MORE painful as they will "throw money" to get more SP and expensive ships... and then wind up losing it due to lack of experience (which is more rage worthy than losing a couple of cheapo frigates and cruisers that one has only put in mild investment into).
- Older players (especially rich ones with access to gobs of ISK) will be able to afford more PLEXes (and thus skillpoints) than any newbie will and still stay ahead in terms of total SP.
- Yes, yes... the Character Bazaar is technically a way to bypass training and get more SP for ISK... but it is more of a grudging necessity than a desired mechanic. Players will always find ways to sell characters regardless of the legality of such a transaction (look at other games for good examples of this). So the best option for all parties is to "contain" and "regulate" the sales in-house so everyone is protected. If there was a way to reliably prevent players from selling accounts then I'm sure that would have been the method used by CCP. The reality is that there isn't.
- Players did get concessions from CCP regarding micro-transactions during the Incarna fiasco. One of those concessions what that PLEX/Aurum would not be used in ways that would give a player a clear advantage over others just because they paid more money (see: gameplay advantages). Granted... creating multiple accounts is also a gameplay advantage... but CCP doesn't see the difference (mechanically speaking) between an alt account and another player playing. In their eyes, it is no different than teaming up with another (actual) player... except a player using two accounts has to split his/her time and attention between both accounts and is thus less effective than two actual players.
"The Skillpoint System and You"
"How did you Veterans start?"
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Marsha Mallow
1964
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 19:41:31 -
[40] - Quote
Good idea to consolidate these topics. If people do want to post about stuff like this, there should be a central thread they can refer to - if anything so they can see that the ideas have been around for a while and not have their head ripped off. Some of these topics might be worth linking in the stickies in New Citizens as ongoing discussions.
As for Buying SP, nope.
Being able to delete limited amounts of SP I'd support. People always remark that you should be stuck with your choices, because consequences/meaning yada yada but there are certain skills various starter alts came with by default that it'd be nice to be able to purge. I really hated having 12,559SP in missiles on one alt to the point I ended up spending a year training missiles just to tidy the skillsheet up. If you've invested the time into training a character then decide to delete some of your skillpoints to tidy the skillsheet up (or because you're ashamed you were once a dirty miner), I really don't see how that's anyone elses concern. The argument that you should be stuck with pointless SP as some sort of punishment for making training mistakes just smacks of pettiness from bitter old farts.
In terms of new players, there have been shifts over the years to try to either create a rounded starter character with 800k sp or offer accelerated learning with bonus remaps and implant accelerators. I'm still not sure the skillpath for new players is optimised to get them hooked and/or prevent them from making training errors.
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:In my opinion for anyone who is playing for a longer period of time, I feel it is something we need to look into as a potential idea that could lay ground to other idea's. In my eyes, it could be beneficial to couple the rookie chat and status with a single, once-per-account remap that you can do upto a certain amount of time. (So ex: A player has upto 2 months after starting to remap their skills. This does not impact the general gameplay significantly, but gives newbro's a potentional feeling that they aren't thrown into the deep instantly, which in turn may help with user retention. That sounds alright to me. A one off after two months would only be around 4mil or so SP, it's not gamebreaking. If people start off and decide to try a bit of everything then settle on a specific playstyle, they bitterly resent what they consider 'wasted SP' and I can't really blame them. I suspect this is something vets forget as the more you SP you accumulate the less relevant the trash becomes. Obviously you can try to point out to newer players that the SP isn't wasted if they've used it to try different playsyles, but yelling "HTFU noob" isn't exactly constructive. Frustration over training in the early stages does appear to impact retention rates so I don't see any harm suggesting tweaks.
DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 21:35:04 -
[41] - Quote
For my part it is a big, big no to purchasable sp and attribute/skill remaps, skilling into the fotm should still be either good planning, luck or a devoted skill que, otherwise it really is pay to win, and apart from time in, pilots would specialize into skill tree character clones. Might as well just have a fitting window for your skills.
Also, would you need to re- purchase skills after every skill remap? How could it work?
Tl;Dr no |
Erihn Sabrovich
Bionesis Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.23 22:08:11 -
[42] - Quote
The SP situation is two-folded.
- for beginners, the SP system is felt as unfair. They can do all that they want, they will never ever reach the SP potential of 5-6 year old accounts... - for older players, they feel that giving a way to newer player to "catch up" a little will devaluate their characters, they see their SP advance as a privilege that would be degraded
So, there must be a balance between the ability to get new players AND KEEP THEM and not making the older one mass-leave...
IMHO, this completely rules out "one-sided" solutions like bonus SP when you begin (accelerated SP training for a limited time or other) and Pay to Win solutions (SP buying)
About the remaps The ability to buy extra remaps for money (ISK, AUR or PLEX) should not be without constraints. Being able to remap "at will" would definitively ruin the implants and be of P2W nature...
Allowing to use money to remap once/year (giving 2 remaps/year) seem to be the maximum acceptable... it'd profit more to players who want to change their orientation or to beginners as when you advance in skill-tree training time increases.
Locking remaps for the 1-3 first months of an account (not character) could prevent new players to waste their first remap AND one remap bonus (to return to correct mapping) because they don't have a clue about the good working of the skills... (or, at least, a warning and confirmation request)
About in game activity having an impact on skill training As some pointed, care must be taken to avoid exploits. but I think that it's possible... and making the reward SP-based and not percentage-based will help new players to get ready...
To make sense, bonus should only be given if the skill in training is related to the activity.
One possible suggestion is to limite gain to specific non-automatic events.
For example, when using guns, extra SP should only be given when a ship is destroyed. This would prevent the "infinite duel" situation. Normal SP gain is about 1SP/second. Giving 1 extra SP when killing a Frigate, 1.5 or 2 for a Destroyer, ... (more for T2) will be a very small bonus that would still reward active players.
Mining don't need specific safeguards as the asteroids deplete over time. Same for reprocessing, researching (takes time, consume datacores or BPO to research), producing (consume materials), ...
For armor/Shield, the same system as for guns could be used : the combat needs to be finished (either way, win or loss) to have the extra SP awarded.
For ships, you'd need to be flying in a corresponding ship and engaged in an activity that would bring the bonus.
Some sklills may also have no bonus (Corporation management for example), ...
The most important thing is that to have a skill increase, something MUST be "used", "depleted", ... a ship killed, an asteroid (or other) depleted, a site hacked, ...
About unlearning Well, I'm in favor to the ability to unlearn skills... with no counter parts... You just forget about it... The only counterpart I'd find OK is returning the skillbook. SP definitively lost.
You'd need proper safeguards... to make sure you are not making a mistake (something like typing the "I AGREEE" or other in a box to confirm).
What use would it be ? mostly Roleplay I'd say... who would do it ? probably very few people...
Is rewarding activity unfair ? When you play, you've several roadblocks, skillpoints is only one of them. The other one are your money (ISK) which is already P2W-like because of the PLEX and the corp/alliance you're in (POCO, POS, Moon material mining, availability of high-end ships like Titans, ...)
The most unfair is clearly the ISK/PLEX situation. If you've much (real) money to throw in the game, you can afford any ship that you want, any equipment,... and deadspace stuff is an obvious benefit that money can buy).
Having activity have a minor impact would indeed give an edge to players who play more... But traders who play more already earn more money on the market without leaving the station and noone complains about it or ask that BO/SO should be locked for 4h after a change...
Rewarding time spent ingame would be much less unfair that the current PLEX situation... and it would reward something that is good for the whole community (having more people online)...
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Koniforous
Tauren Transit
203
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Posted - 2015.02.23 23:13:00 -
[43] - Quote
I think the idea of being able to use a plex to remap skills is a wonderful idea. It would add a great deal of income from plex for ccp and that means more money to spend on developing eve. Any use of plex that both destroys the plex and does not add game time to an account is a good thing for eve online for the reason just stated.
I would love to see mining alliances issue all of their miners a plex when wardecced so the pilots could remap their skills into pvp and combat for the duration of the war.
Its also great because this is one of the few games that is time based leveling. I'll never get those days spent training mining skills back, and I don't use mining on this character at all, so its a complete waste and that makes me look poorly at ccp, thinking to myself "why are they punishing me for being new to the game and not fully understanding the skill point system? I really wish they would offer some sort of sorry noob here you go redo feature."
As far as pay to win goes, if we use plex as the medium for skill point remapping, there is no pay to win since plex can be purchased with isk or cash, and it would only allow for remapping of skill points already earned through time based leveling.
I am l, however, fully against buying skill points that were not personally earned through time based leveling. This type of feature will destroy eve online, just like it did to knights of the lame republic.
+1 for using plex to remap personally earned skill points
-1 for selling unearned skill points through the use of any medium, ingame item or cash.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
411
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 01:21:59 -
[44] - Quote
The only thing I would like to see changed in relation to SP remapping is being able to bank your annual neural remaps that you get once a year, so that you are not really losing out on a remap if you have a 13 month skill plan followed by an 11 month.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
779
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 03:08:18 -
[45] - Quote
Oscae wrote:Hey look Ma I made it to the top of a thread!
In other news, I personally think that this would be a godsend, as I have a habit of not making alts, so my one character now has really poor industry skills and just random other junk that I wish I hadn't trained cause now I'm never going to use them.
I think it should be quite costly however, but also proportionate to the ammount of SP wishing to be reallocated, a 6month toon shouldn't have to pay half a billion to remap 2mil SP and a 10 year vet shouldn't be able to remap 100mil SP for the same price.
There is a closed thread just below called PLEX for SP boosting, though instead of boosting how about remapping? I think this could work, you could redeem plex into SP tokens of differing values etc. 1, 5, 10mil SP remaps, have them market tradeable and such, just a thought
Lastly I appreciate the creation of these centralised threads, hopefully we'll see something good come from them
Oscae
Your right in to days world why should i have to work for something if i have money
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Debora Tsung
Die Woge des Wahnsinns Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
1475
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 07:22:50 -
[46] - Quote
PREDATORoPL GALP wrote:NO for PAY to play ( or win ) I don't get it, the entire subscription model of eve is pay to play...
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Fighting back is more fun than not.
Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
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Diemos Hiaraki
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 13:52:29 -
[47] - Quote
Learning implants I view as a barrier to gameplay (mainly because of their cost) and remapping isn't good either since it locks folks into training optimally (which in of itself feels like a punishment, not a reward.) I don't think that the pirate implants or hardwiring needs meddling with.
'My learning implants are keeping me from PvP' and 'I'm not training skill X while I'm mapped suboptimally' are not thoughts I'd want players to be thinking if I was a game designer. I think this issue is compounded by the high standings costs of getting jump clones especially for new players.
I think the solution is to seed BPOs for learning implants +2 to +5 - make them cheap and they aren't an issue (wouldn't be popular with mission runners though unless learning implant rewards are changed for missions.)
For remapping I'd prefer a skill to be added for players to train that remaps according to the skill being trained automatically.
I am flat out against any form of 'pay to skill up' because it makes the main benefit of subscribing rather worthless imo. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
975
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 14:30:52 -
[48] - Quote
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:... 'My learning implants are keeping me from PvP' and 'I'm not training skill X while I'm mapped suboptimally' are not thoughts I'd want players to be thinking if I was a game designer. I think this issue is compounded by the high standings costs of getting jump clones especially for new players.
...
Remove learning implants and those players will start moaoning that the cost of ships/ammo/PLEX/beanie hats/whatever is stopping them from PvP. I wouldn't be averse to jump clone changes though and hope this is part of the continuing clone rework
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Diemos Hiaraki
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 14:55:47 -
[49] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:... 'My learning implants are keeping me from PvP' and 'I'm not training skill X while I'm mapped suboptimally' are not thoughts I'd want players to be thinking if I was a game designer. I think this issue is compounded by the high standings costs of getting jump clones especially for new players.
... Remove learning implants and those players will start moaoning that the cost of ships/ammo/PLEX/beanie hats/whatever is stopping them from PvP. I wouldn't be averse to jump clone changes though and hope this is part of the continuing clone rework
Those same players are the ones though who need to undock to earn the isk in the first place, and if they never undock they'll never get the isk. The point is we need players to undock and get involved and be empowered to use their clones. The cost of ships and pretty much everything else is in the hands of players - players can't justifiably moan about such things when the tools are there to be used even by the youngest of characters. While learning implants cannot be player made they'll remain a perceived barrier due to their high cost. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
976
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 16:31:46 -
[50] - Quote
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:... 'My learning implants are keeping me from PvP' and 'I'm not training skill X while I'm mapped suboptimally' are not thoughts I'd want players to be thinking if I was a game designer. I think this issue is compounded by the high standings costs of getting jump clones especially for new players.
... Remove learning implants and those players will start moaoning that the cost of ships/ammo/PLEX/beanie hats/whatever is stopping them from PvP. I wouldn't be averse to jump clone changes though and hope this is part of the continuing clone rework Those same players are the ones though who need to undock to earn the isk in the first place, and if they never undock they'll never get the isk. The point is we need players to undock and get involved and be empowered to use their clones. The cost of ships and pretty much everything else is in the hands of players - players can't justifiably moan about such things when the tools are there to be used even by the youngest of characters. While learning implants cannot be player made they'll remain a perceived barrier due to their high cost.
So don't buy the expensive ones until you can afford them, same as anything else in eve. The training time difference between +3's and +5's on new player skills (those with low multipliers) is minimal so a new player shouldn't even consider the expensive sets, or should learn to not lose their pod in hisec/losec
If they are in a null alliance someone there should be explaining thingas like this to the new player. |
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
127
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Posted - 2015.02.24 17:56:02 -
[51] - Quote
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Learning implants I view as a barrier to gameplay (mainly because of their cost) and remapping isn't good either since it locks folks into training optimally (which in of itself feels like a punishment, not a reward.) I don't think that the pirate implants or hardwiring needs meddling with.
'My learning implants are keeping me from PvP' and 'I'm not training skill X while I'm mapped suboptimally' are not thoughts I'd want players to be thinking if I was a game designer. I think this issue is compounded by the high standings costs of getting jump clones especially for new players.
I think the solution is to seed BPOs for learning implants +2 to +5 - make them cheap and they aren't an issue (wouldn't be popular with mission runners though unless learning implant rewards are changed for missions.)
For remapping I'd prefer a skill to be added for players to train that remaps according to the skill being trained automatically.
I am flat out against any form of 'pay to skill up' because it makes the main benefit of subscribing rather worthless imo.
'My learning implants are keeping me from PvP'
Sorry, but the above is just wrong. You are making the choice to avoid pvp because you are afraid to get podded and lose your implants. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1420
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 18:58:03 -
[52] - Quote
Currently, players can remap their attributes on a yearly basis, with new players given a set number of "bonus remaps". There are limits to how much you can remap (i.e. caps on attributes) so you can't completely specialize in one area at the expense of all others. You cannot buy remaps with PLEX or ISK, and if you decide the day after your remap that you don't like your decision, you're stuck with it until another remap becomes available.
I would be okay with implementing a similar system for skill points, but only with the same kinds of limitations. Here's how I think it should work:
1. One skill point remap per year, with new players getting a set number of "bonus remaps".
2. No mechanic to purchase additional skill point remaps with PLEX or ISK. I think we all agree that "Pay to Win" on this level is bad.
3. Skill point remaps are permanent until your next one. No "undo" button. You have to live with the consequences, just like attribute remaps.
4. Any re-allocated skill points must go into a skill that you already have injected. For example, if you wanted to remap skill points into Defensive Subsystem Engineering, but didn't have it injected and didn't have Nanite Engineering at IV yet, you couldn't do that on a single remap; you'd have to train Nanite Engineering up and inject the skill first. This would prevent players from producing new skill point distributions that are too radically different than what they have now.
5. You could not reallocate any points out of prerequisites for skills that you currently have. Using Defensive Subsystem Engineering again, you could not reduce Nanite Engineering below IV as long as you have any points in Defensive Subsystem Engineering. This would prevent players from forming "empty shell" skills, where you have the skills maxed out, but all of the prerequisites at zero.
6. There would have to be limits on how much you could remap in terms of skill points. Just like you can't remap your attributes to give yourself 40 base Perception, you shouldn't be allowed to entirely re-write your character's skill history with the push of a button. I'm picking a number out of a hat here, but I think a 10% limit per remap seems appropriate. So, for example, I currently have ~69 million skill points, so I would be limited to 6.9 million skill points per remap. This would also prevent players from too radically altering their skill point distributions.
Why is any of this a good idea?
A. It gives players, especially newer players, some degree of flexibility to try new things, while limiting the ability of older players to completely re-invent themselves.
B. It doesn't grant players willing to throw PLEX or ISK at the game any more advantage than playrs who aren't.
C. It allows older players the opportunity to adapt to changes that CCP makes to skills over time (Anchoring V anyone?) that are still useful, but not as useful as they once were.
D. It still imposes consequences for player choices, but it wouldn't force players to be permanently stuck with skill points that they may never use again.
Thoughts?
EDIT: Blerg. Typos.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Diemos Hiaraki
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 19:17:50 -
[53] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:sinp snip snip So don't buy the expensive ones until you can afford them, same as anything else in eve. The training time difference between +3's and +5's on new player skills (those with low multipliers) is minimal so a new player shouldn't even consider the expensive sets, or should learn to not lose their pod in hisec/losec If they are in a null alliance someone there should be explaining thingas like this to the new player.
I think CCP have identified a problem with implants that keeping things as they are now won't fix, and digging your heels in isn't helping solve that problem. Unfortunately I'm trying to second guess what the actual problem is and I could be totally wrong with my assumption no matter how far back I try to stand to 'get the big picture.' I actually expect attributes and learning implants to be removed altogether (in order to have a headful of combat hardwirings) with boosters for learning instead (giving a buff to null/wh as part of the sov rework.) My proposal above is basically a halfway house, despite what I expect to happen.
As such I'm not sure what your angle is on keeping things the same as they are now though. Keeping low skilled characters in +3s or whatever just because they can't afford better implants just makes the skillpoint gap bigger between themselves and vets; that may only be a player perceived problem but it's a problem nontheless. I can see arguments to keeping slaves and hardwiring as they are, but learning implants - they don't provide enough to be worth the current costs for players of any age imo and due to their high costs can give players an excuse to be risk averse.
@ Syn Shi - Note this thread title - it's where I got the scenario. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
977
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 21:19:12 -
[54] - Quote
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:sinp snip snip So don't buy the expensive ones until you can afford them, same as anything else in eve. The training time difference between +3's and +5's on new player skills (those with low multipliers) is minimal so a new player shouldn't even consider the expensive sets, or should learn to not lose their pod in hisec/losec If they are in a null alliance someone there should be explaining thingas like this to the new player. I think CCP have identified a problem with implants that keeping things as they are now won't fix, and digging your heels in isn't helping solve that problem. Unfortunately I'm trying to second guess what the actual problem is and I could be totally wrong with my assumption no matter how far back I try to stand to 'get the big picture.' I actually expect attributes and learning implants to be removed altogether (in order to have a headful of combat hardwirings) with boosters for learning instead (giving a buff to null/wh as part of the sov rework.) My proposal above is basically a halfway house, despite what I expect to happen. As such I'm not sure what your angle is on keeping things the same as they are now though. Keeping low skilled characters in +3s or whatever just because they can't afford better implants just makes the skillpoint gap bigger between themselves and vets; that may only be a player perceived problem but it's a problem nontheless. I can see arguments to keeping slaves and hardwiring as they are, but learning implants - they don't provide enough to be worth the current costs for players of any age imo and due to their high costs can give players an excuse to be risk averse. @ Syn Shi - Note this thread title - it's where I got the scenario.
And there is the problem...there is no such thing as a skillpoint gap in the end. You can only train a specific set of skills to level V to max out any hull, weapon system or career path. Everybody can get to the same level depending on their focus they just do it a bit faster or slower depending upon the implants they are willing to risk for the reward of slightly faster training.
The idea of somehow catching up to older players in SP is a fallacy. Firstly you never need to and secondly why should you? Someone with a 10 year older character should always have a lead in total SP as they've been here longer. It is their reward for loyalty. Ultimately however they will have the exact same maximum applicable skills in frigates for instance as a 1 year old player who purely focused on small ship combat skills.
That is why I advocate keeping the current system. It is player perceptions and attitudes that are off kilter, not the system.
The current system cannot be gamed. The current system rewards risking high cost implants with marginally faster training. The current system always allows any player to catch up to another player ultimately in any applicable sub-set of skills. |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1942
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 21:42:15 -
[55] - Quote
Not a fan of paying to remap, or Plex to add 'extra' skill points etc. I'm fine with plex giving a month's worth of skills and a month of pilot time, to be allocated to skills at the players discretion. Players playing by plex are paying more than a sub but would have the benefit of applying skill points and injecting all skills at the start of the month. No additional skills would be allowed to be injected until the following month.
I'd like to get rid of attributes/remapping and learning implants completely but would love to see much more gameplay around hardwiring implants being used in game.
I accept that everyone would skill at the same rate. Just remove all existing learning implants and replace with a generic boost that would be useful in space, e.g. Allow player to redeem a choice of alternative implants that could reduce sig radius, improve tracking, etc. alternatively, select a novelty item like a red coloured pod or corp logo applied to ship. Please make implants swappable as with ship modules and allow a chance of drop on pod death, or introduce a process to salvage a corpse.
As far as reallocating skill points, I'm ok with this based on some constraints: - all points must stay with the same character and can't be moved to another one, not even on the same account. - a limited reallocation should apply, for example, 10% of char skill points can be collected from unwanted skills once every year. - players can choose to reapply skill points at their leisure and could collect multiple years of skill points to reallocate. In theory a player could wait ten years and be able to reallocate 100% of skill points (not prerequisite skills to any plugged in, see next point). - skills that are emptied are still listed as injected and prerequisites of other skills can't be deleted.
Thanks for reading.
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
128
|
Posted - 2015.02.24 23:32:11 -
[56] - Quote
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Diemos Hiaraki wrote:sinp snip snip So don't buy the expensive ones until you can afford them, same as anything else in eve. The training time difference between +3's and +5's on new player skills (those with low multipliers) is minimal so a new player shouldn't even consider the expensive sets, or should learn to not lose their pod in hisec/losec If they are in a null alliance someone there should be explaining thingas like this to the new player. I think CCP have identified a problem with implants that keeping things as they are now won't fix, and digging your heels in isn't helping solve that problem. Unfortunately I'm trying to second guess what the actual problem is and I could be totally wrong with my assumption no matter how far back I try to stand to 'get the big picture.' I actually expect attributes and learning implants to be removed altogether (in order to have a headful of combat hardwirings) with boosters for learning instead (giving a buff to null/wh as part of the sov rework.) My proposal above is basically a halfway house, despite what I expect to happen. As such I'm not sure what your angle is on keeping things the same as they are now though. Keeping low skilled characters in +3s or whatever just because they can't afford better implants just makes the skillpoint gap bigger between themselves and vets; that may only be a player perceived problem but it's a problem nontheless. I can see arguments to keeping slaves and hardwiring as they are, but learning implants - they don't provide enough to be worth the current costs for players of any age imo and due to their high costs can give players an excuse to be risk averse. @ Syn Shi - Note this thread title - it's where I got the scenario.
Again, the choice of words.
You - "I think CCP have identified a problem..."
The first sentence of this thread "As some of the more veteran members of the forums may be aware, the topic of SP remapping and/or buying is a very common one"
The only problem I see is the risk averse trying to create an issue and constantly making posts.
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Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
84
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 16:51:04 -
[57] - Quote
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Learning implants I view as a barrier to gameplay (mainly because of their cost) and remapping isn't good either since it locks folks into training optimally (which in of itself feels like a punishment, not a reward.) I don't think that the pirate implants or hardwiring needs meddling with.
'My learning implants are keeping me from PvP' and 'I'm not training skill X while I'm mapped suboptimally' are not thoughts I'd want players to be thinking if I was a game designer. I think this issue is compounded by the high standings costs of getting jump clones especially for new players.
I agree there are hindrances but some of those I personally feel should be there. The remapping in particular is a problem which I think should be removed. I'm ok with the implants for now but feel there should be more difference between the 4 and the 5 (to cut down on the payoff time). Without copying too much i'll reference the Idea I had come up with before.
I recommend the following changes. -double the effect of all implants (2,4,6,8,10) -use standard implants as the base to shape everything around after removing remaps
The end effect would be as follows assuming max mapping for a skill -improved implants users would see a slight reduction to train time reducing the payoff for cybernetics V to about half a year -standard implants users would see zero change -basic through limited implant users would see a slight increase in training time however that is only IF CURRENTLY MAPPED PERFECTLY FOR SKILL. If you are not mapped perfectly you would still increase since the base rates would be raised from the current 17 to 23.
The end result would look like this (per attribute)
improved - 33 standard - 31 basic - 29 limited beta - 27 limited - 25 none - 23 |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1201
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 20:08:01 -
[58] - Quote
This is actually being discussed? Really?
Pathetic.
I'm old Gregor.
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Orlacc
814
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 20:34:39 -
[59] - Quote
If funds are needed that badly just close the thing down.......
"Actions have consequences" is the main thrust of EVE. Without that.....pfft.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Diemos Hiaraki
Perkone Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 20:40:20 -
[60] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:[ And there is the problem...there is no such thing as a skillpoint gap in the end. You can only train a specific set of skills to level V to max out any hull, weapon system or career path. Everybody can get to the same level depending on their focus they just do it a bit faster or slower depending upon the implants they are willing to risk for the reward of slightly faster training.
The idea of somehow catching up to older players in SP is a fallacy. Firstly you never need to and secondly why should you? Someone with a 10 year older character should always have a lead in total SP as they've been here longer. It is their reward for loyalty. Ultimately however they will have the exact same maximum applicable skills in frigates for instance as a 1 year old player who purely focused on small ship combat skills.
That is why I advocate keeping the current system. It is player perceptions and attitudes that are off kilter, not the system.
The current system cannot be gamed. The current system rewards risking high cost implants with marginally faster training. The current system always allows any player to catch up to another player ultimately in any applicable sub-set of skills.
I do agree that attitudes are off kilter in a great many areas not just this one, but I do disagree that perceived issues or actual issues are things to be ignored while CCP aren't doing great financially.
If clone costs were still a thing I'd agree with you on your other points, however vets have good reason to undock now clone costs are gone, but young and those who think they really need a boost to skillpoint gain are crippled with costs not proportionate for those gains. The vet who is already skilled is empowered, and in many cases can fit a decent sized catalyst fleet for what they would have paid in clone costs per month. I refuse to accept that there's a risk vs reward thing going on here when vets can pretty much do what they want for no cost while a new player looks at ISIS and sees mastery of a rookie ship taking 602-785 days, thinks 'cybernetics is a thing,' then stays docked up playing skillpoints online for a high cost and then gets bored and quits. It's simply bad business from my perspective.
We aren't going to agree so I'll leave it here. Thanks for making your points politely even though we are opposed - I really appreciate it.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
983
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 00:33:07 -
[61] - Quote
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:[ And there is the problem...there is no such thing as a skillpoint gap in the end. You can only train a specific set of skills to level V to max out any hull, weapon system or career path. Everybody can get to the same level depending on their focus they just do it a bit faster or slower depending upon the implants they are willing to risk for the reward of slightly faster training.
The idea of somehow catching up to older players in SP is a fallacy. Firstly you never need to and secondly why should you? Someone with a 10 year older character should always have a lead in total SP as they've been here longer. It is their reward for loyalty. Ultimately however they will have the exact same maximum applicable skills in frigates for instance as a 1 year old player who purely focused on small ship combat skills.
That is why I advocate keeping the current system. It is player perceptions and attitudes that are off kilter, not the system.
The current system cannot be gamed. The current system rewards risking high cost implants with marginally faster training. The current system always allows any player to catch up to another player ultimately in any applicable sub-set of skills. I do agree that attitudes are off kilter in a great many areas not just this one, but I do disagree that perceived issues or actual issues are things to be ignored while CCP aren't doing great financially. If clone costs were still a thing I'd agree with you on your other points, however vets have good reason to undock now clone costs are gone, but young and those who think they really need a boost to skillpoint gain are crippled with costs not proportionate for those gains. The vet who is already skilled is empowered, and in many cases can fit a decent sized catalyst fleet for what they would have paid in clone costs per month. I refuse to accept that there's a risk vs reward thing going on here when vets can pretty much do what they want for no cost while a new player looks at ISIS and sees mastery of a rookie ship taking 602-785 days, thinks 'cybernetics is a thing,' then stays docked up playing skillpoints online for a high cost and then gets bored and quits. It's simply bad business from my perspective. We aren't going to agree so I'll leave it here. Thanks for making your points politely even though we are opposed - I really appreciate it.
There's never any reason not to be polite in a real discussion and opposing views are vital to get a balanced overview of the proposal. If a player stays docked to play sp online then they weren't shown one way or another that doing so is self-defeating no matter what they think. you earn isk by flying and have fun doing so. That's all a player should really be concerned with, everything else is just icing on the game cake. |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
466
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 01:17:54 -
[62] - Quote
the furthest i would EVER go is an SP RE-allocation and very limited 1 time at that, and that is stretching things in my mind as is, in my mind its a bad idea for any messing with how SP are gained, this is how its been since the dawn of EVE, why should some folks get a free pass cause there wallet is bigger than others, i pay a sub for this game cause i know im on a level playing field as everyone else and i think it would be an incredibly bad idea to take that aspect away from the game. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4732
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 01:45:09 -
[63] - Quote
Paid cheating damages the integrity of the sandbox.
That's why I'm against RMT (and accept the PLEX system as a lesser evil, as it reduces unsanctioned RMT which comes with a lot of account hacking, just ask World of Warcraft players how common hacked accounts are there).
And it's why I'm against this stupid proposal.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Forstbyte
Spark In The Dark Yulai Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 13:00:21 -
[64] - Quote
Buying SP? NO
Remapping SP? Great idea, but... limited to one time a year for 10% (?) of your total SP. This should be enough for every vet to wash his first char noob-mistakes away. |
Memphis Baas
179
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 13:23:49 -
[65] - Quote
No to buying SP.
Yes to remapping SP, limited (once a year or whatever). Although it will probably destroy character sales, as you're just buying a name and a quantity of SP. So that would be buying SP.
Yes to buying SP, then, and ban character sales, save yourself the manhours required to make sure there are no scams with them. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
714
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 14:04:03 -
[66] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Paid cheating damages the integrity of the sandbox.
That's why I'm against RMT (and accept the PLEX system as a lesser evil, as it reduces unsanctioned RMT which comes with a lot of account hacking, just ask World of Warcraft players how common hacked accounts are there).
And it's why I'm against this stupid proposal.
Succinctly put.
If either skill remapping or SP purchase came in it would be time biomass and find something else to spend my time on.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Antonio Steele
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2015.02.26 23:42:15 -
[67] - Quote
How about if or when they get rid of attributes for training, we create the ability to remap skill points once a year for a price. Limit of once a year means rich people not constantly changing. Also it would be good to scale the cost to the SP of the character unless it is a set amount of SP a year, and maybe also make each consecutive remap cost exponentially more on top of the SP cost modifier. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
20066
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 00:15:31 -
[68] - Quote
While I Grrrrrrr Ezwal for making another thread about this, I also like the fact that this means he can lock all the new and existing threads on the subject and make them post their drivel here.
Im very conflicted about how I should feel about you right now Ezwal..
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
515
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 01:54:40 -
[69] - Quote
one of the major positive aspects of Eve Online is your ability to train not just vertically but horizontally. SP remapping for ISK or PLEX basically destroys this because now training vertically = training horizontally.
You just remap SP from one now semi-nerfed area to another, eliminating the need to actually train something new.
Yes it may give instant gratification but it destroys any appreciable perception of achievement.
It also vastly favours old player much more than newer players when you're trying to claim that a new or newish character can be combat viable in pvp at an early age.
So no, just no. |
Dave Stark
7400
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 11:40:43 -
[70] - Quote
if sp remapping were a thing, it should be a one off thing for accounts under 12 months old (or 12 months worth of SP) so new players can get rid of those ****** mining skills they accidentally trained and not something for veterans to abuse so they can have all Vs in the latest fotm ship. |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
983
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 11:51:49 -
[71] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if sp remapping were a thing, it should be a one off thing for accounts under 12 months old (or 12 months worth of SP) so new players can get rid of those ****** mining skills they accidentally trained and not something for veterans to abuse so they can have all Vs in the latest fotm ship.
It would still be abusable, simply remap and add implants to max out 2 attributes, train up a load of skills on just those attributes then at 11 months, 29 days, 23hours and 59 mins remap the SP to you actually desired skills. That's the extreme case but this would still speed up specific alt creation stupidly in any given area
Ed: Just to be clear it's and absolute and emphatic no to any form of SP remapping in any way ever from me |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
518
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 12:01:06 -
[72] - Quote
i would say SP purchasing however is actually a thing, its called buying a character from character bazaar.
But then actually making an official ISK for SP mechanic available will force a fair amount of people who actually make characters to sell, to be put completely out in the cold.
in fact it would totally decimate the character bazaar, which would be a crying shame. |
Dave Stark
7400
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 12:09:09 -
[73] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if sp remapping were a thing, it should be a one off thing for accounts under 12 months old (or 12 months worth of SP) so new players can get rid of those ****** mining skills they accidentally trained and not something for veterans to abuse so they can have all Vs in the latest fotm ship. It would still be abusable, simply remap and add implants to max out 2 attributes, train up a load of skills on just those attributes then at 11 months, 29 days, 23hours and 59 mins remap the SP to you actually desired skills. That's the extreme case but this would still speed up specific alt creation stupidly in any given area Ed: Just to be clear it's and absolute and emphatic no to any form of SP remapping in any way ever from me
and how much extra SP is that really going to yield vs the current system of just training gunnery or core skills exclusively at the expense fo the other, then remapping and doing the other half?
to be honest, i agree it shouldn't happen at all. i'd just like to see CCP scrap attributes, learning implants, and remaps and just be done with it. sure the system is "interesting" but never in a million years would i describe it as "good". |
Sony Ichosira
Blackwell Research
7
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 12:36:38 -
[74] - Quote
I have not read every post in this thread but here is what I've got to say. A lot of people say that eve is dying. This is not entirely true in my opinion (I'm playing this game for about 6-7 years now). But, in the moment you, CCP, will implement any of the mentioned changes, related to changing PLEX for SP/remaps/anything related to skills/character itself then ONE thing will happen:
EvE
WILL
D I E
In the matter of months. If you'll implement any of these changes, you'll destroy the unique system which only EvE online has, and all players that are attracted to this game (as imo, this is the only MMO worth playing atm), will just leave and never come back.
Just saying. Sony |
Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1213
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 13:38:21 -
[75] - Quote
An amazing absence of blue posts so I'll just try and force it. Can any CSM/Dev tell us what CCP's stance is on this issue and if it's being discussed internally, regardless of how (in)formal it may be.
This is one of those festering rumours that WILL result in drama which could have so easily been taken care of if only CCP would have been smart enough to make an obvious, unambiguous, statement on it before the **** hits the fan. We've been in that situation before, I'm not interested in going back to it.
I'm old Gregor.
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Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
128
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:19:01 -
[76] - Quote
1750 aurum for a remap in nes store (50% of a plex) i think it would be cool Just put some limit on this maybe? don't know. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2736
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:20:54 -
[77] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:An amazing absence of blue posts so I'll just try and force it. Can any CSM/Dev tell us what CCP's stance is on this issue and if it's being discussed internally, regardless of how (in)formal it may be. This is just an ISD created thread so that they don't have to go through every other day, or multiple times a day and lock redundant threads because people didn't bother to search. I would not expect any kind of blue ribbon on this thread. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1436
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:31:57 -
[78] - Quote
I can already hear the carrier pilots whining about wanting their skillpoints back.
Limited, annual skill point remaps (like I laid out here) would silence that whining right quick. Along with all the whining that comes around any time things get nerfed.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Dirk Morbho
Mindstar Technology Get Off My Lawn
27
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:33:06 -
[79] - Quote
Buy-back of skill points isn't terrible if it's kept in balance. Make it scale with the Rank of the skill so you can't train a 'cheap skill' and refund for an 'expensive skill' in terms of training time. Then on top that scaling, add a penalty (like 20%, or whatever) so that when a skill refund is done, they'll not be taking it lightly.
mah 2 centavos
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Sony Ichosira
Blackwell Research
8
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 16:14:11 -
[80] - Quote
Dirk Morbho wrote:Buy-back of skill points isn't terrible if it's kept in balance. Make it scale with the Rank of the skill so you can't train a 'cheap skill' and refund for an 'expensive skill' in terms of training time. Then on top that scaling, add a penalty (like 20%, or whatever) so that when a skill refund is done, they'll not be taking it lightly. mah 2 centavos
Please, don't. Just leave this whole "thing" as it is now. Don't fix something that is not broken, because you can broke it as well... |
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Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
73
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 06:41:16 -
[81] - Quote
I'm generally not a fan of monkeying with skillpoints. But the parade of people calling SP remaps is never going to go away. So here is what I suggest: A drug, manufactured like a booster, that allows you to unlearn a skill and recover half of the SP for remap into something else.
- One dose, one level of a skill. - Works immediately, transfers 50% of the unlearned skill's SP into the 'unallocated skillpoints' thing. - Cannot unlearn a skill level that is a prerequisite of another skill you have learned. - Made from gas-cloud stuff, and with drug lab equipment. - Contraband in all empire space.
Skillpoints are the most valuable thing in EVE. They're more valuable than ISK or even gametime specifically because you can't buy them for any price, either in-game currency or real-world $$$. So throwing away any for any reason would be a very stupid thing to do. But CCP's philosophy is to give people the freedom to make dumb decisions. I believe it's right-and-proper that anyone who would think using this a good idea should have the freedom to make their toons as dumb as they are.
[EDIT: And F--- NO to any method of buying and injecting SP, or draining SP into anything that could be sold or transferred to alts. Stupid, stupid idea. You shouldn't even have to ask.] |
bonkerss
MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels
3
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 11:45:06 -
[82] - Quote
im all for a sp-remap once a year much like the attribute remap. dont make it possible to buy skill points or skillboosts. we already have implants for that. |
Sony Ichosira
Blackwell Research
9
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 12:22:37 -
[83] - Quote
Colette Kassia wrote:I'm generally not a fan of monkeying with skillpoints. But the parade of people calling SP remaps is never going to go away. So here is what I suggest: A drug, manufactured like a booster, that allows you to unlearn a skill and recover half of the SP for remap into something else.
- One dose, one level of a skill. - Works immediately, transfers 50% of the unlearned skill's SP into the 'unallocated skillpoints' thing. - Cannot unlearn a skill level that is a prerequisite of another skill you have learned. - Made from gas-cloud stuff, and with drug lab equipment. - Contraband in all empire space.
Skillpoints are the most valuable thing in EVE. They're more valuable than ISK or even gametime specifically because you can't buy them for any price, either in-game currency or real-world $$$. So throwing away any for any reason would be a very stupid thing to do. But CCP's philosophy is to give people the freedom to make dumb decisions. I believe it's right-and-proper that anyone who would think using this a good idea should have the freedom to make their toons as dumb as they are.
[EDIT: And F--- NO to any method of buying and injecting SP, or draining SP into anything that could be sold or transferred to alts. Stupid, stupid idea. You shouldn't even have to ask.]
This remap with SP loss would be good idea but not for 50% loss but for more, like 70-80% of sp lost. That way you can recover something for "useless" skills and put it back into without rebuilding your character. |
luna1102
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 16:21:56 -
[84] - Quote
Pay to Win. - This is still possible with buying PLEX and selling to the market - Buying any character in the character bazar with the needed skills. There is no difference. The last line, which should NEVER be changed: Renaming the character name. If this will be changed - you have the perfect Pay to Win mechanic.
Unlearning Skills. Everyone has some skills in his head from early days, which are not needed anymore. Currently you can learn about max. 23 Mio SPs every year in the normal learning skill queue. The idea: - Let you create an "unlearning skill queue", where you get about 33% of the SPs back as "unallocated SPs". This shoud run at 20% of the current learning speed of your attributes. - Therefore you can unlearn about max. 4,5 Mio SPs every year (slowly in the background) and get there about 1,5 Mio back. - If you reach the 0 SP of the skill, you can destroy the skillbook in your head, if you want.
With this system you can optimize your character, but not as a big bang - slowly as the un-skillqueue is running. (The same logic - just reverted.) If you don't unlearn anything, the time is lost. You have to plan, which skills and the order of the unused skills (due to the current attribute mapping) and you have to wait for completion - this is the EVE way.
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
115
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 18:32:40 -
[85] - Quote
Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
32
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 18:45:48 -
[86] - Quote
I liked the idea CCP was throwing around of removing atribbutes and just having skillpoints accrue at a particular rate. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1441
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 20:22:40 -
[87] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top. How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps)
EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
983
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 21:01:24 -
[88] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top. How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps) EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea.
A remap system for SP is horrible whether it is purchased or time limited. It's still an SP remap. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
577
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:09:38 -
[89] - Quote
Buying or remapping existing SP for PLEX... no.
Buying SP training remaps for PLEX, yes.
Why? Because CCP devs like to add new skills (most recently, see T3 dessie skills), and new skills always cause problems for planning optimal SP training - particularly for younger players, who usually need to switch between optimizing Per/Wil or Int/Mem.
With the old twice-per-year release cycle, the additions of new skills had less of an impact on the need to remap frequently for optimal SP training. Once-per-year remap was reasonable (plus the extra ones you get as a noob).
With the current every-six-week release cycle, once-per-year remap is no longer adequate. If CCP devs want to introduce new skills more frequently than once or twice per year, then the ability to remap also needs to be more frequent. Otherwise, younger players continue to fall behind the older players, in terms of skill training and remain disadvantaged.
As for the arguments that this only benefits richer players... well, this bias already exists in the fact that only richer players can afford to always fit +5 attribute implants in all of their clones.
Alternatively, CCP could just scrap the whole attribute/implant-based skill training, so that everyone trains SP at the same rate for all skills.... |
Alexis Nightwish
102
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:59:20 -
[90] - Quote
Buying SP, no matter what spin or hoops you apply to it, is pay to win.
So put me into the "Oh, **** NO!" group.
CCP only approaches a problem in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
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Mag's
the united
19102
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:02:22 -
[91] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Buying or remapping existing SP for PLEX... no.
Buying SP training remaps for PLEX, yes.
Why? Because CCP devs like to add new skills (most recently, see T3 dessie skills), and new skills always cause problems for planning optimal SP training - particularly for younger players, who usually need to switch between optimizing Per/Wil or Int/Mem.
With the old twice-per-year release cycle, the additions of new skills had less of an impact on the need to remap frequently for optimal SP training. Once-per-year remap was reasonable (plus the extra ones you get as a noob).
With the current every-six-week release cycle, once-per-year remap is no longer adequate. If CCP devs want to introduce new skills more frequently than once or twice per year, then the ability to remap also needs to be more frequent. Otherwise, younger players continue to fall behind the older players, in terms of skill training and remain disadvantaged.
As for the arguments that this only benefits richer players... well, this bias already exists in the fact that only richer players can afford to always fit +5 attribute implants in all of their clones.
Alternatively, CCP could just scrap the whole attribute/implant-based skill training, so that everyone trains SP at the same rate for all skills.... That's not an argument for SP remapping, that's one for the removal of attributes and learning implants and the giving of a flat 2700 SP/h for all.
SP remapping is bad. There is not one 'good' or 'up' side to it and it fixes nothing.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
984
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:24:03 -
[92] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Buying or remapping existing SP for PLEX... no.
Buying SP training remaps for PLEX, yes.
Why? Because CCP devs like to add new skills (most recently, see T3 dessie skills), and new skills always cause problems for planning optimal SP training - particularly for younger players, who usually need to switch between optimizing Per/Wil or Int/Mem.
With the old twice-per-year release cycle, the additions of new skills had less of an impact on the need to remap frequently for optimal SP training. Once-per-year remap was reasonable (plus the extra ones you get as a noob).
With the current every-six-week release cycle, once-per-year remap is no longer adequate. If CCP devs want to introduce new skills more frequently than once or twice per year, then the ability to remap also needs to be more frequent. Otherwise, younger players continue to fall behind the older players, in terms of skill training and remain disadvantaged.
As for the arguments that this only benefits richer players... well, this bias already exists in the fact that only richer players can afford to always fit +5 attribute implants in all of their clones.
Alternatively, CCP could just scrap the whole attribute/implant-based skill training, so that everyone trains SP at the same rate for all skills.... That's not an argument for SP remapping, that's one for the removal of attributes and learning implants and the giving of a flat 2700 SP/h for all. SP remapping is bad. There is not one 'good' or 'up' side to it and it fixes nothing.
If they just put in a flat rate SP system they should make it the lowest current sp/hr just so those wanting everything faster without working for it /risking anything get no benefit from the change :D |
Svarii
Acclimatization
67
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 01:09:52 -
[93] - Quote
Buy skill points? NO!
NO!
You wanted want? To buy skill points? NO!
Hey remember those learning skills they took out of the game? Why do you think they would let you buy skill points. And even if I had 10 trillion isk to waste, I would still NOT be in favor in allowing the purchase of skill points.
You want more skill points? Then queue up some skills and wait like everyone else.
You can already remap your attributes. Leave it at that. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
418
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:54:18 -
[94] - Quote
It has been said, but getting rid of the mapping would be fine with me. I personally like making a year long plan and switching over, but it does kind of screw of new players and is not intuitive.
On the subject of paying to unlearn skills, etc. I am not a huge fan. Lets keep a couple consequences in eve. If you train mining to 5, you get to keep it regardless of whether or not you feel shamed. |
Capn Steve
Old Man Gaming The Void Collective
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 23:21:41 -
[95] - Quote
Personally I don't think PLEX should be used for anything more than it already is. It's already close enough to Pay2Win.
I think skill point remapping is perfectly doable, but it'll never happen because it would involve methods for checking prerequisites and CCP is apparently afraid of that, as evidenced by the way skill injection works.
That said, the way I'd like to see it done is this:
You allow a remap of 1mil skill points after 30 days have passed (or some period longer than it takes to get 1mil sp) and your SP total is more than 1mil greater than it was at the time of the last remap. If both those conditions are true, you can never remap all your skill points; only the last million SP. This lets new players dip their toes into a skill set, then change their minds without wasting weeks of SP. The limits prevent veterans from totally changing the skill set of a 100mil SP character, and 1mil SP doesn't mean much on a character in the bazaar. Essentially, this gives players a 2 week margin of error on their skill training. There are still consequences to the choices you make. If you trained a skill to lvl 5, chances are you're not getting rid of it entirely unless it's a very low rank skill.
The idea here is to give a margin of error that really matters for new players who are just figuring out the game. The numbers I mentioned could be tweaked easily, but the idea is solid. The whole reason this subject comes up so often is because newer players get frustrated when they go down one path only to find that it's boring, or there's a different path they didn't even know about last week, but now they've put all this momentum into that first path and they don't want to "waste" the SP they've already paid for (and yes, if you're paying a sub you're paying for SP). |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1453
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 15:32:27 -
[96] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Bronson Hughes wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top. How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps) EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea. A remap system for SP is horrible whether it is purchased or time limited. It's still an SP remap. But an you explain why it's horrible? Lots of people have been saying that SP remaps are band, will kill EvE, etc., but nobody is saying why. How exactly are SP remaps a bad thing?
Especially in light of the fact that CCP makes occasional changes that render certain skills less valuable (Anchoring V, Tactical Shield Manipulation V, etc.), it seems that some form of limited SP remapping (like I proposed here) would be totally appropriate. Please read the post I linked before replying, the system I proposed has some very hefty limits, but would allow players to adapt to curveballs that CCP throws at us.
Please note, I'm only talking about recurring remaps. Involving PLEX or Aurum in any kind of skill point manipulation (aside from paying for game time to train) is a whole other ballgame. "Pay to win" is bad, period.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
987
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 15:50:36 -
[97] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Bronson Hughes wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top. How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps) EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea. A remap system for SP is horrible whether it is purchased or time limited. It's still an SP remap. But an you explain why it's horrible? Lots of people have been saying that SP remaps are band, will kill EvE, etc., but nobody is saying why. How exactly are SP remaps a bad thing? Especially in light of the fact that CCP makes occasional changes that render certain skills less valuable (Anchoring V, Tactical Shield Manipulation V, etc.), it seems that some form of limited SP remapping (like I proposed here) would be totally appropriate. Please read the post I linked before replying, the system I proposed has some very hefty limits, but would allow players to adapt to curveballs that CCP throws at us. Please note, I'm only talking about recurring remaps. Involving PLEX or Aurum in any kind of skill point manipulation (aside from paying for game time to train) is a whole other ballgame. "Pay to win" is bad, period.
I've read the post before and replied in that thread about 3 comments later...SP remap is horrible as it reduces the relevance of choices made by a player and will always be possible to abuse in some way.
A player has made choices and should live with them. That's what makes each character unique and should remain so. Otherwise every character would simply migrate gradually to 'Perfect char for career x, y, or z' and discrete characters would become pointless. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1453
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 16:11:37 -
[98] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I've read the post before and replied in that thread about 3 comments later...SP remap is horrible as it reduces the relevance of choices made by a player and will always be possible to abuse in some way.
A player has made choices and should live with them. That's what makes each character unique and should remain so. Otherwise every character would simply migrate gradually to 'Perfect char for career x, y, or z' and discrete characters would become pointless. Some thoughts:
1. Only being able to remap a limited number of skill points wouldn't exactly allow players to completely change careers. Optimize and tweak, yes. Experiment, yes. But not radically alter. You couldn't take a dedicated, 50 million skill point mining character and, with a single remap, turn them into a dedicated combat character. You probably wouldn't even do it with a handful of remaps. 2. By extension, since you feel that all consequences are permanent, would you remove player attribute remapping and force all players to live with one set of attributes permanently? Or, hey, let's make things really permanent and make pod death final. Living with the consequences of your actions is a good thing, but in most cases there's some method of mitigating said consequences. 3. CCP grants extra attribute remaps to new players because they realize that early on new players will make mistakes. They grant regular attribute remaps to all characters because they realize that eventually, characters may want to change the path that they're on. The skill remap proposal I made follows those trends: allow adaptation and experimentation, but with consequences and with hard limits in place. 4. EvE changes. Some skills have their utility reduced, which means that a decision that made sense with the skill was trained no longer makes sense. Is it really a good idea to force players to live with consequences of actions that they had no control over?
Keep in mind, I don't think EvE needs skill point remapping. I'd be perfectly fine without it getting implemented. But when you consider the trends regarding where CCP is taking EvE, the desire to make it more friendly for new players, and the complaints of old players who have once useful skills reduced in utility, I think it's something that should be considered in some form.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
987
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 16:45:17 -
[99] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:...my waffle, belgian preferably with some chocolate sauce and sliced banana please.... Some thoughts: 1. Only being able to remap a limited number of skill points wouldn't exactly allow players to completely change careers. Optimize and tweak, yes. Experiment, yes. But not radically alter. You couldn't take a dedicated, 50 million skill point mining character and, with a single remap, turn them into a dedicated combat character. You probably wouldn't even do it with a handful of remaps. 2. By extension, since you feel that all consequences are permanent, would you remove player attribute remapping and force all players to live with one set of attributes permanently? Or, hey, let's make things really permanent and make pod death final. Living with the consequences of your actions is a good thing, but in most cases there's some method of mitigating said consequences. 3. CCP grants extra attribute remaps to new players because they realize that early on new players will make mistakes. They grant regular attribute remaps to all characters because they realize that eventually, characters may want to change the path that they're on. The skill remap proposal I made follows those trends: allow adaptation and experimentation, but with consequences and with hard limits in place. 4. EvE changes. Some skills have their utility reduced, which means that a decision that made sense with the skill was trained no longer makes sense. Is it really a good idea to force players to live with consequences of actions that they had no control over? Keep in mind, I don't think EvE needs skill point remapping. I'd be perfectly fine without it getting implemented. But when you consider the trends regarding where CCP is taking EvE, the desire to make it more friendly for new players, and the complaints of old players who have once useful skills reduced in utility, I think it's something that should be considered in some form.
1) Only remapping a limited number wouldn't work. For it to be useful it would have to be enough SP to change an entire skill at least to another career otherwise whats the point?
2) I do believe consequences should be permanent to a point, w ehave clones to protect against perma death but beyond that if you trained it/bought it/broke it it's yours. I'm from an RPG background where if you screwed up you lost your character and started over so have little sympathy with the whole 'need' to remap SP because of choices you no longer like.
3) I'm fine with the early remaps and made use of one of them myself early on, good plan and works well in my mind.If a player wants to change path then they can, and they can train it just the same as every other player on that path. If a player wants something radically different there is MCT and alts. If you experiment then the consequence is that you may not like the result and you have to live with it. No SP 'save points' please, leave things like that to HALO etc...
4) Of course Eve changes and skills become more or less useful but never useless (or very rarely and then they refund SP). However during thetime a skill was useful you made use of it to generate ISK/fun so the investment was worthwhile. When something new comes along you get the fun of training it along with evryone else without any accrued SP remap headstart.
|
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1453
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 17:03:56 -
[100] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:1) Only remapping a limited number wouldn't work. For it to be useful it would have to be enough SP to change an entire skill at least to another career otherwise whats the point? I've read your other points, understand them, and see where you're coming from. I do agree with some of the points you raised, which is why I say I'm not sold on the idea of remapping yet.
But this point you raised confuses me. In my head, the whole reason that my proposal isn't over the top is because it does place hard limits on how much you can remap. I'm not sure I follow.
I had just typed out a long example highlighting how useful even a limited remap could be when something dawned on me: any form of skill point remapping could potentially render attributes and attribute remaps useless.
Case in point: leadership skills. Nobody likes training them because you have to set your primary attribute as Charisma to learn them at max speed, which means you end up spending a good chunk of a year training other skills at sub-optimal speeds unless you have a bonus remap. But with skill remaps, you can keep your attributes set to whatever you want, so long as you're training to your peak attributes, and then just remap the skills into leadership later. Poof, no attribute remap necessary.
So, if CCP were to implement skill point remaps, it seems that they'd have to couple it with doing away with the attribute system entirely. That seems like an awfully sweeping change, especially when you consider the implant market.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
|
NeodiuM Scuttle
Blood Moon Traders Zero Fux.
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 03:49:01 -
[101] - Quote
I'm actually in favor of this in a way.
When those specials for alt accounts go up having one thats pricey but offers 15m to 20m sp unallocated would suit. I cannot get mates to join the game this ate in the piece. I've told them to get their feet wet and maybe we'll look at buying him a higher sp toon down the track once it all clicks, but nope.
If i could say to him, get this package, and he'll either spend all the sp on horrendous things or wait till trial period or something is over and use the unallocated sp and be able to do afew things moderately well.
Though im sure this would likely just end up being quick alts for everyone instead.
Side note:
Introduce once off expensive re-maps for dosh, watch people reorganise their skills, get to the end, have forgotten about support skills / leadership fail skills and not be able to fly their command ships anymore. Then let the tears roll out. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
987
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 11:27:56 -
[102] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote: Case in point: leadership skills. Nobody likes training them because you have to set your primary attribute as Charisma to learn them at max speed, which means you end up spending a good chunk of a year training other skills at sub-optimal speeds unless you have a bonus remap. But with skill remaps, you can keep your attributes set to whatever you want, so long as you're training to your peak attributes, and then just remap the skills into leadership later. Poof, no attribute remap necessary.
So, if CCP were to implement skill point remaps, it seems that they'd have to couple it with doing away with the attribute system entirely. That seems like an awfully sweeping change, especially when you consider the implant market.
And this illustrates why I don't like the idea of SP remap in anyway. For it to be useful it would have to remap a sgnificant number of SP otherwisethere would be no point. And if it is a signifacant enough amount to 'Poof, no attribute remap necessary' a skill in any way it simply becomes meaningless what attribute choices you make. Every choice should have a consequence and this removes those consequences to a greater or lesser degree. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1455
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 11:58:28 -
[103] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:And this illustrates why I don't like the idea of SP remap in anyway. For it to be useful it would have to remap a sgnificant number of SP otherwisethere would be no point. And if it is a signifacant enough amount to 'Poof, no attribute remap necessary' a skill in any way it simply becomes meaningless what attribute choices you make. Every choice should have a consequence and this removes those consequences to a greater or lesser degree. I'm capsuleer enough to admit when I've changed my mind in light of superior logic. The only way a skill remapping system would work without invalidating attributes is if you limited it to only moving skill points between skills of the same attribute distribution, and that just seems ungodly complicated for the limited potential benefit gained.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
Nicola Romanoff
Quantum Innovations Limited
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 15:25:26 -
[104] - Quote
There was a time when I would want to remap skills but since the cost to clones went away I am not bothered by this any more.
I would like to see the remap actually disappear and all skills train at the same rate. maybe work it that the lower levels say level 2 and 3 take a little longer to train and the level 4 and 5 take a little less, those 30 day plus skills are annoying, but if they were not to change I wouldn't be bothered. |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
920
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 19:19:57 -
[105] - Quote
Not sure if I did post a "no" in this thread yet so posting again. |
SiKong Ma
House of Nim-Lhach Skeleton Crew.
11
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 02:31:19 -
[106] - Quote
No.
With the amount of backstabbing, suicide ganking, betrayal and stuff happening, this allow greater freedom for people to get off without repercussion, just start a new char and use the ill-gotten gains to buy more skill points without any trace.
|
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 02:53:30 -
[107] - Quote
I don't really understand the opposition to SP remap. You're not getting anything for free, it's not the same as buying SP you didn't already earn. A PLEX service to perform a one-time flush of all trained SP to unalocated SP seems perfectly reasonable. Limit it to once per year per character if necessary. The only "pay to win" advantage that gives you is correcting your own past mistakes. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
988
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 10:07:21 -
[108] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:I don't really understand the opposition to SP remap. You're not getting anything for free, it's not the same as buying SP you didn't already earn. A PLEX service to perform a one-time flush of all trained SP to unalocated SP seems perfectly reasonable. Limit it to once per year per character if necessary. The only "pay to win" advantage that gives you is correcting your own past mistakes.
Or training a character at maximum amount without caring what the skills are as long as they are the lowest multiplier ones that match the chosen attributes then flush all the accrued sp into a perfect FotM pilot. And you didn't earn the SP in the skills you now decide you want instead. Such an option would make characters and training entirely meaningless. This would become 'Been playing a year? Now you can fly X, Y, and Z. another 6 months until capitals...' |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1464
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 12:01:48 -
[109] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:JoeSomebody wrote:I don't really understand the opposition to SP remap. You're not getting anything for free, it's not the same as buying SP you didn't already earn. A PLEX service to perform a one-time flush of all trained SP to unalocated SP seems perfectly reasonable. Limit it to once per year per character if necessary. The only "pay to win" advantage that gives you is correcting your own past mistakes. Or training a character at maximum amount without caring what the skills are as long as they are the lowest multiplier ones that match the chosen attributes then flush all the accrued sp into a perfect FotM pilot. And you didn't earn the SP in the skills you now decide you want instead. Such an option would make characters and training entirely meaningless. This would become 'Been playing a year? Now you can fly X, Y, and Z. another 6 months until capitals...' Any kind of SP reamp would have to have limits on it, like caps on the attribute levels, to prevent just that. But even then, there's too much room for abuse unless you add extra, otherwise unnecessary, complexity.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 13:48:53 -
[110] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:JoeSomebody wrote:I don't really understand the opposition to SP remap. You're not getting anything for free, it's not the same as buying SP you didn't already earn. A PLEX service to perform a one-time flush of all trained SP to unalocated SP seems perfectly reasonable. Limit it to once per year per character if necessary. The only "pay to win" advantage that gives you is correcting your own past mistakes. Or training a character at maximum amount without caring what the skills are as long as they are the lowest multiplier ones that match the chosen attributes then flush all the accrued sp into a perfect FotM pilot. And you didn't earn the SP in the skills you now decide you want instead. Such an option would make characters and training entirely meaningless. This would become 'Been playing a year? Now you can fly X, Y, and Z. another 6 months until capitals...' Character training is already completely meaningless. It's a time sink that has nothing to do with player skill or _play_ time invested. It needs a major revamp if the game is survive the drought of new players put off by the character progression. SP remap however addresses part of that issue for existing players. Your concern seems to be about abuse to maximize training efficiency, but that's exactly what attribute remap already does. |
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
216
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 14:43:06 -
[111] - Quote
everyone wants the easy way out. I started in November of 05, I have a 163m sp and everyskill but the useless one for bragging right delicate your skilling to select areas and don't look for the easy way out to max everything. The reason for alts is to have multiple characters to do either do multiple things or 1 thing with many. -1 to the easy path, enough of eve is easy if you use intelligence. the only reason I have alts, the 2 I have offline are for missions so I can sacrifice their standings when I mission with people.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
|
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 21:34:15 -
[112] - Quote
Due to the game changes coming way to often as before this idea is not that bad and has full rights to live.
Of course there must be clear process with limitations and possible penalties. Not that huh today i'm a super cap pilot and tomorrow i'm rat lab goddy. No. We have afributes remap option time to think on same way for SP but here is the trick - how often and how many SP's are allowed to remap. |
GordonO
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP
94
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:14:03 -
[113] - Quote
I would welcome the change as I really want to redeem my wasted SP that I trained to use deep space probes.. the skill.. so useless to me to train to 5 I can't remember what its called, is well clearly wasted. Was handy with DSP.. but useless now that DSP have been removed and scanning has been made easy.
.
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4100
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 00:04:16 -
[114] - Quote
I think there should be an option to "cash in" skills for SP that are no longer desirable, at say a 50% return rate. Instead of PLEX for remaps and raw SP, this might accomplish the same goal in the end, ie: Players who trained up for a specific career (mining) that have since outgrown it and no longer need those skills.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
84
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 01:55:16 -
[115] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I think there should be an option to "cash in" skills for SP that are no longer desirable, at say a 50% return rate... Yup, from the previous page.
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Count Szadek
Relentless Terrorism Already Disbanded
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 10:10:43 -
[116] - Quote
I don't agree with purchasing SP Directly, however an alt character pack that comes with an item that provides Unallocated SP to the character when redeemed would be okay (as long as it could not be used on higher SP Characters).
Example Alt SP Vial: Redeems for up to 5 Mil Unallocated SP - Limits use to 10 Million SP (if you have 7.5 and you redeem you only get 2.5 etc.) - Can NOT be traded, sold, or contracted!!!
Edit: Another thing that could also make it is a booster that adds the SP AFTER X months. This would work similar to multiple character training as cost would be same for paying for mct. Great for alts you dont know what to do with |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4100
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 10:17:29 -
[117] - Quote
Ah, sorry - my bad. +1 to the idea (like the drug aspect).
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Bal'Ayle
Blood Moon Traders Zero Fux.
28
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 14:50:49 -
[118] - Quote
Id like to weigh in my opinion on this topic as it has been one I have tried to launch so many times.
There are many ways to do this that would add a lot of depth to the game and I don't think its really play to win providing its done right and limited.
----------my idea----------
harvesting SP from bio-massed characters.
overview: The ability to destroy a toon on an account and harvest the SP that character has which can be added to another character.
Limitations: No character can absorb more SP then would normally be possible to train through the training que by normal means. Ie: characters potential skills points 30m / trained skills 20m - biomass's 20m sp toon = 10m sp to be used.
Costs: 1 plex for every 10m sp the biomassed toon looses that you wish to transfer - minimum SP 5m. So 5msp<10msp = 1 plex 10msp-20msp = 2 plex.
Benefits: This will benefit character trading - no character can exceed their peers SP levels - new characters wont be transformed into SP plasters for main characters. 5msp is an investment of time. Frees up character names without CCP intervention. clears out old toons no longer needed. More Plex sinks. a LOT of players would be using them for this purpose.
Negatives: toons mapped specifically for fastest SP gain just to be biomassed. raise in price for older characters with heavy SP totals. Character trading will be swifter reducing exposures on markets and lowering overall public trade due to the benefit of biomassing. - a LOT more max skill pilots flying around.
----------my position on this topic-------------
The idea that paying for SP is pay to win is horse brown. most people who want this like me are people who accidentally podded ourselves out of SP or who couldn't invest time or funds at the time to train. My inability to get on eve is from my RL commitments and the idea that I can't use my hard earned money to make playing a game a little bit less time consuming is frankly a bit one sided as an argument.
Why should you benefit from the fact you have more free time then me over me using the results of my lack of free time to further my eve career? is it not similar to the upsides and downsides of our choices ingame? why should the time poor people suffer or those who go through patches where they just cant get online? why does the community only support those that CAN spend 3/8 hours ingame or playing for months consistently?
we allow plex cards and see the benefit that had on us as a whole? back then that was cash for isk and it works well. those that can afford it use it - those that cant don't, but it works, its been working and will continue to work - are we so short sighted we cannot see the need for something that has spawned literally thousands of topics specifically requesting it be brought in?
---------MY INSPIRATION----------
I have a character from 2009 - I am a paltry example of a character with that age compared to my peers - and why? because I had a son, because I was homeless and because I moved and couldn't afford to buy back a computer I pawned. Now I can afford to buy a new character at the bazaar - but why should i?
I want my character my history.
I want to get back that which I lost purely because I couldn't be there to earn it - but unlike everything else in the eve universe once you lose out on SP - its gone. I like the risk vs reward mechanic but this is purely a take it or lose it situation.
I could use my money out of game and buy characters against all our community on whole - you wouldn't know it. by why ruin what I love?
I could buy so much isk I could trade for one. But I would rather buy CCP a drink buying plexes or something else and get my character to where she should be rather then line someone else pockets.
Why shouldn't the community that helped me overcome the adversity of my life - the friends I made during my eve life who kept me smiling when everything else in my life fell apart, benefit from my new found good fortune in the form of more money going into a game we all love?
I dont ask for this out of greed. I dont ask for this to be better than you. I ask only for the opportunity to make myself what I could have been had I not fallen when I did. IS THIS SO MUCH TO ASK? IS THIS REALLY ANY DIFFERENT THEN ME PAYING MONTHS AGO?
IS recouping lost potential so against the grain you all feel that its very suggestion is abhorrent? I don't think it is. and neither do the thousands of other posters asking for it.
-------MY EVE-------
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
222
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 15:00:16 -
[119] - Quote
There are quite a few of us with 14mil + SP in drones and are stuck in SC's, as well as Titan and Dreadnaught pilots with a ton of drone SP
When drones were removed we were told to bad, so sad about the SP
Making a one time wipe or maybe a remap for plex option would be a way to redo some of the "Lost" SP due to rebalance changes in the game
If this does happen PLEASE, PLEASE make it so when you right click -> Apply Skill Points it has a list of 1-5 and SP required for each level. That way someone with 185mil SP doesn't get chronic arthritis from right clicking each skill 5 times to train to 5, they can click once and enter SP and it is trained to 5 |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
991
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 15:15:01 -
[120] - Quote
Bal'Ayle wrote:...
IS recouping lost potential so against the grain you all feel that its very suggestion is abhorrent? I don't think it is. and neither do the thousands of other posters asking for it.
-------MY EVE-------
6 pages doesn't constitute 1000's of posters and 1000's of people asking for something doesn't make it necessarily good. Most of the players in Eve would ask for PLEX to halve in price but that wouldn't make it a good idea.
I'm always going to be sympathetic to people suffering RL problems as most people have been there to some degree at some point.
However, this would lead to old characters being rolled out and brought up to date left right and centre and suddenly most would be the current FotM skillset. Old untrained characters would ecome the must have item in the character bazaar.
I stand by my point that for any SP remap to be useful it would have to affect a large amount of SP which inherently makes it immediately abusable. It would also remove any uniqueness frmo the characters. |
|
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1470
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 15:26:18 -
[121] - Quote
I've been rolling this around in my head some more.
I still think that buying sill points with PLEX, Aurum, or ISK is a horrible idea.
I still think that most forms of skill point remapping (including the one I proposed here) would require such a radical change of the character system in EvE as to not be worth the effort considering the gains involved.
Yet, I still feel that some way should exist to adapt to changes that CCP has made to certain skills over the years. Anchoring V is my prime example: it's still technically useful, but after the requirement for Starbase Defense Management got dropped to Anchoring IV, Anchoring V is widely seen as far less useful.
So this is what I propose:
1. Once a year (just like attribute remaps), each character may reduce one skill by one level and reallocate the reclaimed skill points however they choose. These skill remaps would not be purchasable in any fashion.
2. Each new character would start off with a fixed number of "bonus remaps", just like with attribute remaps.
3. Violations of skill prerequisites would not be allowed. (i.e. no lowering Anchoring to III if you have Starbase Defense Management injected.)
I think this would accomplish the goals of my original proposal, a certain amount of "disaster recovery" for new players making mistakes and for changes to skills made by CCP, without allowing players to "game the system" and render attributes less valid. It wouldn't really allow for "old" characters like me to radically alter their skillsets because the most that any character could ever remap is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.5 million skill points, and that's only if they have one of the racial Titan skills trained to V.
Using myself as an example again, the largest number of skill points that I'd be eligible to reallocate is roughly 1.7 million by dropping Gallente Battleship from V to IV. This represents about 2.5% of my total skill points (~69 million), or about 28 days of training with optimal attributes and +3 implants.
Thoughts?
EDIT: Added #3.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
Mag's
the united
19120
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 16:25:33 -
[122] - Quote
Still waiting for someone to give a valid reason for an SP remap. So until that point, it's still a no from me. Oh before anyone suggests it, ship/game/balance changes are not a valid reason. They are in fact a requirement of CCP as a game designer and they would be remiss if not carried out.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
GordonO
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP
94
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 18:09:26 -
[123] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Still waiting for someone to give a valid reason for an SP remap. So until that point, it's still a no from me. Oh before anyone suggests it, ship/game/balance changes are not a valid reason. They are in fact a requirement of CCP as a game designer and they would be remiss if not carried out.
Have you read all posts on all pages ?? check again.. there is at least one valid reason..
.
|
Memphis Baas
197
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 19:41:40 -
[124] - Quote
If you enable buying SP, let us buy them from the NPCs so it's an ISK [I]sink[/url]. Huge expensive ISK sink. Despite all the people against it, I think you'll have enough buyers to bring the ISK in the economy back to reasonable levels. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 02:39:58 -
[125] - Quote
my $0.02:
As one who is still climbing the Core and Fitting Skillpoint Cliff, I would certainly be prepared to spend some PLEX for faster training, however I think it should be subject to some very severe limitations.
Spending the PLEX should double your base skillpoint accrual rate, without additional implant bonuses. However, you should be limited in how many times you can do this for the one character or account to, say, no more than five times.
So for spending five PLEX, in addition to the regular subscription, I can get 10 months training done in five months.
This allows new players the opportunity to catch up on those basic skills that many bittervets trained so long ago that they completely forget how hard it can be to fit a ship up without the "all skills at V" that pretty much every fleet doctrine relies upon. The CFC Fleet Harpy is one example, without highly trained fitting skills (or an expensive implant), you can't fit the second mag-stab in the low slots.
Malcanis' Law be damned, the skillpoint system is beyond frustrating for new players.
Resident Newbie at: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
|
Lodochkin
DeLait Kelts Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 05:43:51 -
[126] - Quote
CCP wanted remove from eve much isk as possible. it's right. PLEX is ideal thing to do that.
I guess i'm not offend you that my mind But some thing most be constant. U can't learn skills FAST for PLEX!
I play in EVE 10 years and i could say how hard learn skills. But now, newbies say "that's not so hard, are u crazy?"
let's see.
Learning skills - were first to make easy way for newbies. OK. need more subscribers(mostly of them are carebear who stop playing soon.) Remap was second. "Today i'm set miner skills, tomorrow i set pvp skills.. OH nice, i have x-count bonus remap" Than training queue .For me before,i woke up by alarm clock to change other skill training. and for nowadays "unlimited" queue.... I haven't words about it. But mostly are happy. Don't know why. All become simple
How much you will "forget" about old players? It's your stronghold .They give to eve action, make it fun, pvp. If you lost this subscribers, in EVE mostly will be peaceful npc farmers, until they don't get full hangar of ships. And they just watch on it.
In any dev blogs, or future EVE changes, CCP wants that we talk with developers to make EVE better. But i really don't know with who you communicate. Very few information about GSM or feedback. I don't see that they work. Or make for own coalition better. I'm tired to be silent. I'm angry. EVE become worse. |
Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 11:53:31 -
[127] - Quote
I would still love to be able to use a PLEX to speed up my main character's skill learning. If we can already use a PLEX to activate skill learning on an alt, why can't we use a PLEX to speed one up? Think of all the PLEX sales that this would create.
There should be some limitations. For instance, only one character per account can be sped up at a time. The speed boost shouldn't be any higher than 50%, and you can only have one speed boost active at any time - no stacking multiple boosts.
It all comes down to: Do you want to use that PLEX to speed up one character to 150% skill learning speed, or activate an alt so you have two characters learning at 100% speed? You get more SP overall by using it on a second character, BUT if you prefer to play on only one toon, you can get him more SP a little faster by using the PLEX as a speed boost.
I realize this isn't a popular idea, but I don't think it would be game-breaking. If it gets more players involved in more aspects of the game earlier, why not? The fact is, high SP characters can do more stuff and have more fun than low SP characters. You can't even argue against that, because it's the truth. |
Bal'Ayle
Blood Moon Traders Zero Fux.
29
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 12:32:35 -
[128] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Bal'Ayle wrote:...
IS recouping lost potential so against the grain you all feel that its very suggestion is abhorrent? I don't think it is. and neither do the thousands of other posters asking for it.
-------MY EVE-------
6 pages doesn't constitute 1000's of posters and 1000's of people asking for something doesn't make it necessarily good. Most of the players in Eve would ask for PLEX to halve in price but that wouldn't make it a good idea. I'm always going to be sympathetic to people suffering RL problems as most people have been there to some degree at some point. However, this would lead to old characters being rolled out and brought up to date left right and centre and suddenly most would be the current FotM skillset. Old untrained characters would ecome the must have item in the character bazaar. I stand by my point that for any SP remap to be useful it would have to affect a large amount of SP which inherently makes it immediately abusable. It would also remove any uniqueness frmo the characters.
Il be honest I am aware that this would happen - this is where limits can come into play or making it crazily expensive to do.
How about as an example having to soup characters to put the SP into a pool and a character can only have so many SP recoverd at a time - so a cap of 20msp max per activation? and have activations take time?
Ie: have it as follows.
SP pool activation cost = 1 plex (lasts 30 days)
per 10mSP harvested from a character = 1 plex - IE character has 30msp u need to pay 3 x plex to harvest or lose equivalent SP
to BUY 5msp raw with no character = 2 plex
A character can only receive SP once every 12 months - skill that can reduce this on mastery to 24hours (IE lvl 1 allows the SP to be used on the character - lvl 2 reduces it to 9mth / lvl 3 to 6mth / lvl 4 to 3mth / lvl 5 to 24hours )
make this skill's base cost around the 1/2 billion mark
Maybe make it applicable to a clone ingame so when you reinstall you clone with the current mechanics u apply the SP to that clone - using the above system to reduce the time it takes between uses - and perhaps if u want to make it even more risky have another skill that increases the yield percentage transfered. 30msp might not be 30msp when you get it into your toon.
that way you have the following. Time investment High cost risk involved (potential temporary damage to stats?) like a negative booster after transfer reduced capacity to stack characters creates a realistic soft cap by the insane cost and time investment. alright someone COULD make an army of high skilled alts - but at the cost of months ingame training and billions of isk spent is this such a bad thing? it would help the economy if we made it an ISK black hole for people to re-use over and over.
I could develop this much much further - I could tie it into the story hell i could draft artwork for the modules and flesh this out. but is there a call for it? I personally think there is~
|
Snakebyte Jack
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 13:34:42 -
[129] - Quote
Just posting to say that i am in favour of Isk/ plex for skillpoints. I cant see how it would harm anyone and it would help new characters catch up on the SP front.
I would like to get this character back to being able to use T2 large weaponry without having to wait till christmas for it. Alas at the moment i have no other choice. |
Dave Stark
7431
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 13:36:23 -
[130] - Quote
Snakebyte Jack wrote:Alas at the moment i have no other choice.
yes you do.
Here it is. |
|
Snakebyte Jack
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 14:02:54 -
[131] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Snakebyte Jack wrote:Alas at the moment i have no other choice. yes you do. Here it is.
I dont want to sell Snakebyte i want him to have more skillpoints ?
I dont really follow your logic.
How does selling or buying a character help my identiy as Snakebyte Jack acheive more skillpoints in a faster time frame ? |
Mag's
the united
19126
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 14:04:40 -
[132] - Quote
GordonO wrote:Mag's wrote:Still waiting for someone to give a valid reason for an SP remap. So until that point, it's still a no from me. Oh before anyone suggests it, ship/game/balance changes are not a valid reason. They are in fact a requirement of CCP as a game designer and they would be remiss if not carried out. Have you read all posts on all pages ?? check again.. there is at least one valid reason.. So valid, here you are telling me about it. Oh wait.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Josef Djugashvilis
2913
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 14:05:31 -
[133] - Quote
I put up with/do not mind most of the rebalancing, new ideas etc.
None of them have ever made me consider leaving the game.
The option to buy skill points would.
Hell, I do not really like the character spam - sorry bazaar.
This is not a signature.
|
Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 14:11:10 -
[134] - Quote
I don't think new players should have to rely on the character bazaar to get ahead - the 10 to 20 bil price tags on most of the decent characters there are far and away out of reach of anyone with a middle class income. I don't know about you, but I'm not dropping $300 on PLEX for a new toon, especially one that I can't rename.
Bizarre how people can become so attached to the existing paradigm of skill advancement, when it's purely a matter of the amount of money paid to CCP. Time spent playing isn't even a factor - your skills trudge along at the same grinding pace even if you aren't logged in. From a mechanical standpoint there is no functional difference between someone who created an account 10 years ago and has stayed subbed all that time only logging in to set skills, versus someone who wants to play the game a lot right now and is willing to pay more money to CCP for some extra SP.
"But I haven't paid CCP anything - I buy my PLEX with ISK!" Well someone still paid RL money for that PLEX. CCP still got their money. It all comes down to paying CCP for your SP. Fundamentally there shouldn't be anything wrong with paying CCP more money for more SP. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
735
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 15:09:27 -
[135] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:I don't think new players should have to rely on the character bazaar to get ahead - the 10 to 20 bil price tags on most of the decent characters there are far and away out of reach of anyone with a middle class income. I don't know about you, but I'm not dropping $300 on PLEX for a new toon, especially one that I can't rename.
Bizarre how people can become so attached to the existing paradigm of skill advancement, when it's purely a matter of the amount of money paid to CCP. Time spent playing isn't even a factor - your skills trudge along at the same grinding pace even if you aren't logged in. From a mechanical standpoint there is no functional difference between someone who created an account 10 years ago and has stayed subbed all that time only logging in to set skills, versus someone who wants to play the game a lot right now and is willing to pay more money to CCP for some extra SP.
"But I haven't paid CCP anything - I buy my PLEX with ISK!" Well someone still paid RL money for that PLEX. CCP still got their money. It all comes down to paying CCP for your SP. Fundamentally there shouldn't be anything wrong with paying CCP more money for more SP.
To which I believe the most succinct reply is:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Paid cheating damages the integrity of the sandbox.
That's why I'm against RMT (and accept the PLEX system as a lesser evil, as it reduces unsanctioned RMT which comes with a lot of account hacking, just ask World of Warcraft players how common hacked accounts are there).
And it's why I'm against this stupid proposal.
As to the Character Bazaar I've never liked it and the only justification I see for it is that much like like PLEX it is a lesser evil. Better that than the unregulated and unsafe sale of accounts on markets such as eBay.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Dave Stark
7435
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 15:38:52 -
[136] - Quote
Snakebyte Jack wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Snakebyte Jack wrote:Alas at the moment i have no other choice. yes you do. Here it is. I dont want to sell Snakebyte i want him to have more skillpoints ? I dont really follow your logic. How does selling or buying a character help my identiy as Snakebyte Jack acheive more skillpoints in a faster time frame ?
easily, you purchase a character with more SP... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
991
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:00:30 -
[137] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Snakebyte Jack wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Snakebyte Jack wrote:Alas at the moment i have no other choice. yes you do. Here it is. I dont want to sell Snakebyte i want him to have more skillpoints ? I dont really follow your logic. How does selling or buying a character help my identiy as Snakebyte Jack acheive more skillpoints in a faster time frame ? easily, you purchase a character with more SP...
Or be patient and train it like everyone else has. A character has no purpose if it isn't created over time by someone. Bring in any form of bought/transferred/remapped SP and you start the slippery slope to simply getting rid of characters and skills entirely and just letting evryone fly anything whenever.
|
Bal'Ayle
Blood Moon Traders Zero Fux.
30
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:13:06 -
[138] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Snakebyte Jack wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Snakebyte Jack wrote:Alas at the moment i have no other choice. yes you do. Here it is. I dont want to sell Snakebyte i want him to have more skillpoints ? I dont really follow your logic. How does selling or buying a character help my identiy as Snakebyte Jack acheive more skillpoints in a faster time frame ? easily, you purchase a character with more SP... Or be patient and train it like everyone else has. A character has no purpose if it isn't created over time by someone. Bring in any form of bought/transferred/remapped SP and you start the slippery slope to simply getting rid of characters and skills entirely and just letting evryone fly anything whenever.
Im a little lost as to your example here - My character has collosal dropped potential with what I could have right now and what I havent got right now.
But the only think that is missing is not a period of time, its the lack of subscription. There is no training involved its purely a timed subscription reward.
The whole suggestion of which I provided related to never being able to surpass that potential which would normally be afforded to somone with default skills training at a standard rate. The majority of players PRO the core of these suggestions all agree we don't want paid for advantage to corrupt a players ability - only the right to level the playing field between me and somone who at the time could afford to pay to play.
Thats what this boils down to.
Why should bob who had more utility to play eve a year ago have a higher potential then me when I have plenty of resources to catch back up now? just because he was able to at the time?
What role play or character enhancing factor is that? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
992
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:21:00 -
[139] - Quote
Bal'Ayle wrote:[quote=Corraidhin Farsaidh]
Im a little lost as to your example here - My character has collosal dropped potential with what I could have right now and what I havent got right now.
But the only think that is missing is not a period of time, its the lack of subscription. There is no training involved its purely a timed subscription reward.
The whole suggestion of which I provided related to never being able to surpass that potential which would normally be afforded to somone with default skills training at a standard rate. The majority of players PRO the core of these suggestions all agree we don't want paid for advantage to corrupt a players ability - only the right to level the playing field between me and somone who at the time could afford to pay to play.
Thats what this boils down to.
Why should bob who had more utility to play eve a year ago have a higher potential then me when I have plenty of resources to catch back up now? just because he was able to at the time?
What role play or character enhancing factor is that?
The player who is now higher in total SP has either been playing for that time and interracting with the game environment/other players and/or paying CCP for the privilege. The higher SP is reward for that loyalty and input to the game.
As I said I'm always sympathetic to those who couldn't play for some reason but how could CCP ever decypher a genuine case of inabilty to play from someone space rich or RL rich ewanting to buy SP and creat perfect character x, y, or z?
It wouldbe abused by those with the most money to keep themselves ahead of those who can only afford to pay one or two plex for an SP boost and the dynamic of pilots would shift from the current balance of low-medium-high SP chars to being much more heavily medium SP players and probably a lot more large SP players.
There is no way such an idea could be introduced without it being abused and reducing the whole point of characters and training in the first place. It's one of the things that sets Eve apart from other games and in my opinion is fine as it is. |
Naxirian
Target Acquired
24
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:23:22 -
[140] - Quote
I've thought about this many times over the years, and allowing any form of "buying" SP, be it with real world currency or with isk (which effectively can be acquire via real life currency, due to PLEX) is a horrific idea that will drive many players away from this game.
People have spent years building up characters and they're proud of where they've gotten to and the skillpoints they have achieved over years of dedication to the game and skill training plans.
To allow any form of gaining SP via real world currency (which is what would happen, given the nature of PLEX), would be another monoclegate incident, and provide a massively unfair advantage to people who's real world situations are better than others. It's essentially pay-to-win.
Remapping SP. Now that's another story. I don't necessarily disagree with that, HOWEVER, I think it would be very wise that if such a service were introduced, it should only be possible to do so via in-game currency, and it should work in a similar manner to remapping attributes. I believe there should be a fixed cost in isk per SP remapped, and that you should only be able to do it once every 12 months. That seems like a sensible and reasonable approach to the idea, which will scale the cost of doing so with the amount of SP the character has, and prevent people with unlimited funding from rapidly switching between different abilities.
EVE is all about consequence, dedication, and planning. Buying SP is a horrible idea, remapping it could potentially be acceptable, if handled correctly.
Just my two cents. |
|
Dave Stark
7437
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:24:53 -
[141] - Quote
Bal'Ayle wrote:Why should bob who had more utility to play eve a year ago have a higher potential then me when I have plenty of resources to catch back up now? just because he was able to at the time?
he doesn't, go and buy a character with more sp than bob. |
Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:39:50 -
[142] - Quote
I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.
Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula. |
Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:46:55 -
[143] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: The player who is now higher in total SP has either been playing for that time and interracting with the game environment/other players and/or paying CCP for the privilege. The higher SP is reward for that loyalty and input to the game.
As I said I'm always sympathetic to those who couldn't play for some reason but how could CCP ever decypher a genuine case of inabilty to play from someone space rich or RL rich ewanting to buy SP and creat perfect character x, y, or z?
It wouldbe abused by those with the most money to keep themselves ahead of those who can only afford to pay one or two plex for an SP boost and the dynamic of pilots would shift from the current balance of low-medium-high SP chars to being much more heavily medium SP players and probably a lot more large SP players.
There is no way such an idea could be introduced without it being abused and reducing the whole point of characters and training in the first place. It's one of the things that sets Eve apart from other games and in my opinion is fine as it is.
This is incorrect. Because SP doesn't progress as a direct result of gameplay, the player with a longer subscription does not have necessarily interacted more with the game environment, or necessarily provided more input.
The amount of SP you have is directly tied to the amount of money you have paid CCP and nothing else. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
993
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:49:04 -
[144] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.
Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula.
It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
993
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:52:28 -
[145] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: The player who is now higher in total SP has either been playing for that time and interracting with the game environment/other players and/or paying CCP for the privilege. The higher SP is reward for that loyalty and input to the game.
As I said I'm always sympathetic to those who couldn't play for some reason but how could CCP ever decypher a genuine case of inabilty to play from someone space rich or RL rich ewanting to buy SP and creat perfect character x, y, or z?
It wouldbe abused by those with the most money to keep themselves ahead of those who can only afford to pay one or two plex for an SP boost and the dynamic of pilots would shift from the current balance of low-medium-high SP chars to being much more heavily medium SP players and probably a lot more large SP players.
There is no way such an idea could be introduced without it being abused and reducing the whole point of characters and training in the first place. It's one of the things that sets Eve apart from other games and in my opinion is fine as it is.
This is incorrect. Because SP doesn't progress as a direct result of gameplay, the player with a longer subscription does not have necessarily interacted more with the game environment, or necessarily provided more input. The amount of SP you have is directly tied to the amount of money you have paid CCP and nothing else.
And thus you have supported CCP and the game buy paying them one way or another. If by cash then it directly supports development, if it is buy PLEX then you have interacted with the game environment and therefore affected everyone else in game to some degree.
Allowing PLEX to be used to buy SP would also cause huge inflation in PLEX price thus damaging the ability of those who can't afford RL money and are time rich to plex their accounts. The time poor but cash rich players would still be fine to pay of course but there would overall be less pilots in space and that can never be good. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
735
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:53:11 -
[146] - Quote
If CCP were to institute SP purchase then they might as well go the whole microtransactions route and start selling gold ammo and pulling shiny super bonused hulls out of thin air along with all the other paraphernalia of Pay2Win.
Thin end of the wedge.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|
Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 16:58:06 -
[147] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.
Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula. It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money.
I think SP boosts could come with limits. I favor a system where they let players use a PLEX to give a character 30 days of 50% faster skill learning, and accounts are only allowed to have one boost active at any time, as it would keep rich players from gaining an overly huge advantage while also allowing most players access to an SP boost. It would also be very similar to the service we already have where we can activate the skill queue on alts using a PLEX.
There have also been other similar ideas in the thread, such as a limited number of boosts per character, or a limited number of boosts each year. I think we can all agree that SP boosts shouldn't be used to the extreme. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
993
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:08:18 -
[148] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.
Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula. It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money. I think SP boosts could come with limits. I favor a system where they let players use a PLEX to give a character 30 days of 50% faster skill learning, and accounts are only allowed to have one boost active at any time, as it would keep rich players from gaining an overly huge advantage while also allowing most players access to an SP boost. It would also be very similar to the service we already have where we can activate the skill queue on alts using a PLEX. There have also been other similar ideas in the thread, such as a limited number of boosts per character, or a limited number of boosts each year. I think we can all agree that SP boosts shouldn't be used to the extreme.
I would then have my main training at 50% higher than any new player can hope to achieve at all times and the real space rich players would have every alt training at this higher rate. This would increase the gapo between new and old players not decrease it.
I still maintain that any SP purchase/remap ability that is large enough to be worth the time and effort would be immediately abusable by those with more disposable income. |
Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:16:36 -
[149] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.
Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula. It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money. I think SP boosts could come with limits. I favor a system where they let players use a PLEX to give a character 30 days of 50% faster skill learning, and accounts are only allowed to have one boost active at any time, as it would keep rich players from gaining an overly huge advantage while also allowing most players access to an SP boost. It would also be very similar to the service we already have where we can activate the skill queue on alts using a PLEX. There have also been other similar ideas in the thread, such as a limited number of boosts per character, or a limited number of boosts each year. I think we can all agree that SP boosts shouldn't be used to the extreme. I would then have my main training at 50% higher than any new player can hope to achieve at all times and the real space rich players would have every alt training at this higher rate. This would increase the gapo between new and old players not decrease it. I still maintain that any SP purchase/remap ability that is large enough to be worth the time and effort would be immediately abusable by those with more disposable income.
Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
996
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 19:39:05 -
[150] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:
Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.
You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players...
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Freedom Nadd
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 20:27:38 -
[151] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:
Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.
You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players...
Simple answer.
Make isk. Buy character. Quit whining.
Pay to Win nearly destroyed this game not so long ago. Anything like Pay to SP WILL destroy it.
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Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 21:32:15 -
[152] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:
Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.
You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players...
No I got your point. This is IMO the best way to introduce a SP boost. It doesn't give a player a lump sum of SP all at once, it only applies to one character at a time every 30 days per account, and it's the same price as activating a second characters skill queue, which by the way would give you more SP overall (2 characters at 100% learning speed compared to 1 character at 150% learning speed).
It could also be said that implants also favor richer players as new players can't afford implants out of the gate. Strangely enough the answer for people who have criticized this has always been that they could buy a PLEX. How ironic. The fact is, is that richer players will always have an advantage of some form or another. Even if we made all characters equal they could just subscribe multiple accounts. There is no getting around that. At the least, this type of SP boost would make the advantage the price of one PLEX, compared to the 15 or 20 PLEX needed for a character from the bazaar. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
76
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 21:52:50 -
[153] - Quote
Why should i buy another char? I want to stay with one i have created with such big love and time has passed and now i want to re-focus to something new, and SP's remap is the right tool for that. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
996
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 23:49:20 -
[154] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:
Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.
You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players... No I got your point. This is IMO the best way to introduce a SP boost. It doesn't give a player a lump sum of SP all at once, it only applies to one character at a time every 30 days per account, and it's the same price as activating a second characters skill queue, which by the way would give you more SP overall (2 characters at 100% learning speed compared to 1 character at 150% learning speed). It could also be said that implants also favor richer players as new players can't afford implants out of the gate. Strangely enough the answer for people who have criticized this has always been that they could buy a PLEX. How ironic. The fact is, is that richer players will always have an advantage of some form or another. Even if we made all characters equal they could just subscribe multiple accounts. There is no getting around that. At the least, this type of SP boost would make the advantage the price of one PLEX, compared to the 15 or 20 PLEX needed for a character from the bazaar.
The problem here is that two characters training at the normal rate as alts take the same time to train whereas with this idea one character now trains at 50% higher rate, i.e. it takes 2/3 the time to train something which is a huge increase. As you say implants cost isk but the difference in training rate for +5's is minimal over affordable +4's and the pilot has a ton of isk at risk to do so (or doesn't undock if they are that daft and therefore make no isk at all). This idea means a player would get 50% rate increase at absolutely no risk.
The rich players or even reasonably well off players such as myself would always train at 50% higher than most new players. They would never catch up no matter what. Note: This is in the sense of total SP, the idea of 'catching up' is a total fallacy. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
76
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 01:06:54 -
[155] - Quote
double post |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 02:41:40 -
[156] - Quote
All the haters against skill point change are just bitter cause they didn't have any option from the get go to get skill points faster/easier. Every time someone new joins all you see is skill points don't matter blah blah, so who the f**k cares if CCP ever decides to actually implement something like skill point buying or makes it so people can get skill points easier cause it's player skill/OGB/blobs that matter amirite.
For the record I'm not for or against any change to the skill point system. |
Dave Stark
7439
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 08:23:13 -
[157] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Why should i buy another char? I want to stay with one i have created with such a big love and when time has passed and plans been changed i want to re-focus to something new, and SP's remap is the right tool for that.
you should buy it if you want more sp, or sp allocated in a different way to currently.
not sure why you needed such an obvious thing explaining to you, but there you go.
no, sp remaps are not the right tool for that, correct planning of your skill queue is the right tool for that. |
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
174
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 16:27:11 -
[158] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:An amazing absence of blue posts so I'll just try and force it. Can any CSM/Dev tell us what CCP's stance is on this issue and if it's being discussed internally, regardless of how (in)formal it may be.
This is one of those festering rumours that WILL result in drama which could have so easily been taken care of if only CCP would have been smart enough to make an obvious, unambiguous, statement on it before the **** hits the fan. We've been in that situation before, I'm not interested in going back to it.
It's almost a certainty that learning implants will be removed and that attribute points will be 'iterated' and that this is NOT a rumour. CCP asked in my original forum OP on this issue, which I think ran over 100 pages if memory serves but is now 'closed', what we would like, if anything, in place of the learning implants in slots one to five. It is purely a matter of time before this change is implemented.
I think CCP see learning implants primarily as an unnecessary complication which puts off new players staying on to play EVE Online. Additionally they also feel the existence of learning implants makes capsuleers more risk adverse and less likely to engage in PvP.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jump Clones are removed as well after this as they have an element of complication about them as well. We will have to wait and see I guess. |
Kyalla Ahashion
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
19
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 17:57:27 -
[159] - Quote
If attribute remaps are retained in their current form, do not make them available for some period of time (90 days? 6 months) .
Rationale: The current mechanic rewards newly created alts of veteran players at the expense of penalizing new players
Attribute remaps force genuinely new players to choose between an "optimal" SP/Hour training plan, which trains skills in such an order that the character takes a long time to become enjoyable to play., or training skills in the order which gets the player access to content quickly, at the expense of training much more slowly.
With access to remaps delayed, this choice between a poor new player experience vs a less optimized training plan would be moot, alts of bittervets would train at the same effective rate as new players (for at least long enough that those new players can begin to get an understanding of how to optimize.
Replace the 3 bonus remaps at character creation with a system under which a remap is awarded periodically, and up to 3 remaps can be saved up
Rationale: Greater flexibility in aligning training plans with remaps, and less incentive to "hoard" the bonus remaps since they would be replaced over time.
Guided Training System
In addition to the current "skill queue" mechanics, implement a guided skill planning system that beverages ship masteries, certificates, and the concept of "career paths" to automatically maintain a sensible training plan.
Training goals could be a ship, module, mastery, or certificate. Having a training goal set would cause the skills to reach that goal to be automatically trained after any skills manually placed into the skill queue. Goals would be queued just as skills are queued in the training queue now.
A career path would allow the player to choose a racial focus (defaulting to the character's race), and a career - generalist, combat, mining, exploration, etc. A predefined training plan would exist for each combination, allowing skills suitable to that plan to be automatically chosen any time that both the skill queue and the goals are empty. and a career path would be set from the very beginning of character creation.
The next few skills from the player's goals Goals and Career Path would be shown at the end of the player's skill queue, and the player would be able to drag stills from there into their "manual" queue.
I think this would be easier to understand for new players , and it would reduce the dependence on third party tools. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
78
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 20:11:39 -
[160] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Why should i buy another char? I want to stay with one i have created with such a big love and when time has passed and plans been changed i want to re-focus to something new, and SP's remap is the right tool for that. you should buy it if you want more sp, or sp allocated in a different way to currently. not sure why you needed such an obvious thing explaining to you, but there you go. no, sp remaps are not the right tool for that, correct planning of your skill queue is the right tool for that.
You sir are wrong. If this game was stable and never updated with expantions then i would agree with you.
For now the only best way to invest my time into current SP's system is go ahead with jack-of-all skills scenario.
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JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 20:22:22 -
[161] - Quote
Freedom Nadd wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:
Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.
You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players... Simple answer. Make isk. Buy character. Quit whining. Pay to Win nearly destroyed this game not so long ago. Anything like Pay to SP WILL destroy it. The game is already pay-to-sp and always has been. You don't grind NPCs nor solve puzzles nor win in PVP to get those SPs. You simply setup a queue and then pay subscription to make it happen. Those characters you are suggesting to buy are made exactly that way.
Pay-to-win would actually be a step up from what we have now, which can only be described as pay-to-wait. Nobody wants to pay for a game with time-gated content, unless of course they already have 50+ mil SP.
This is exactly why the only new characters I've seen in a while are suicidal scout and cyno alts. EVE has lots of great stuff in it, but its character progression is the worst I've seen anywhere else. It needs a complete revamp to sustain a healthy population of non-alts, but for now even a small stuff like SP remap or training boost would help.
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Freedom Nadd
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 20:45:52 -
[162] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:Freedom Nadd wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:
Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.
You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players... Simple answer. Make isk. Buy character. Quit whining. Pay to Win nearly destroyed this game not so long ago. Anything like Pay to SP WILL destroy it. The game is already pay-to-sp and always has been. You don't grind NPCs nor solve puzzles nor win in PVP to get those SPs. You simply setup a queue and then pay subscription to make it happen. Those characters you are suggesting to buy are made exactly that way. Pay-to-win would actually be a step up from what we have now, which can only be described as pay-to-wait. Nobody wants to pay for a game with time-gated content, unless of course they already have 50+ mil SP. This is exactly why the only new characters I've seen in a while are suicidal scout and cyno alts. EVE has lots of great stuff in it, but its character progression is the worst I've seen anywhere else. It needs a complete revamp to sustain a healthy population of non-alts, but for now even a small stuff like SP remap or training boost would help.
The might I suggest EVE Online is not the game for you, and you return to whatever title you enjoy the most. |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 21:15:40 -
[163] - Quote
Freedom Nadd wrote:The might I suggest EVE Online is not the game for you, and you return to whatever title you enjoy the most. No, you may not.
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Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 00:38:50 -
[164] - Quote
I agree. Time-gated content really sucks. I love almost everything else about EVE except the lousy skill system. This is the one thing that just sticks out and makes the whole thing taste bad. Sadly there still aren't any other MMO's out there that hold my interest as much as EVE.
If I could make any change I wanted, I would give EVE a skill system similar to Star Trek Online. We would keep all the current skills and have five levels per skill, but all players would get say 200 skill points and each skill level would require 1 point to level up. This would mean you would have to pick and choose skills very carefully and ideally everyone would have drastically different skill plans. No more playing the waiting game.
Of course there's no chance of that happening now since players with more than a year or two of play would have more than 200 skill levels. There would be rioting in the streets. But maybe it's an idea for EVE 2 if or when that ever gets made. |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 02:51:59 -
[165] - Quote
Well there are other options...
One thing I was thinking about is rewarding SPs for PVP. If you blow up another player's ship, you get a small amount of SP towards your skill currently in training. The actual amount would depend on the relative value of the ship blown up versus ship(s) on the killmail. I.e. you get pretty much nothing from destroying rookie ships, while a t2 cruiser or a BS would give you a fair bit. If you pod another player then the amount would be determined by the relative SP difference. Podding an old player could be quite lucrative, while killing a newbie would grant almost nothing.
In both cases the victim would be a subject to diminishing returns. Alternatively, victim could lose the same amount of SP if diminishing returns is not enough to deal with abuse.
A notable side effect: Invigorated PVP.
Side effect 2: ships blowing up more = outflow of excess ISK
I mean this isn't anything new. It is pretty much how rewards system work in any PvP game worth the title.
Thoughts? |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
78
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 08:23:42 -
[166] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:Well there are other options...
One thing I was thinking about is rewarding SPs for PVP. If you blow up another player's ship, you get a small amount of SP towards your skill currently in training. The actual amount would depend on the relative value of the ship blown up versus ship(s) on the killmail. I.e. you get pretty much nothing from destroying rookie ships, while a t2 cruiser or a BS would give you a fair bit. If you pod another player then the amount would be determined by the relative SP difference. Podding an old player could be quite lucrative, while killing a newbie would grant almost nothing.
In both cases the victim would be a subject to diminishing returns. Alternatively, victim could lose the same amount of SP if diminishing returns is not enough to deal with abuse.
A notable side effect: Invigorated PVP.
Side effect 2: ships blowing up more = outflow of excess ISK
I mean this isn't anything new. It is pretty much how rewards system work in any PvP game worth the title.
Thoughts?
So you saying that RvB, CODE, and smiling saint egg etc are going to be the most SP's pilots in game? |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
737
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 08:29:44 -
[167] - Quote
Its as bad or worse than any other idea for short cutting the current system which is reasonably fair, no one as far as I've ever heard has been able to gain an advantage from it bar those anyone with the in-game cash to buy gains (which are at least risked in-game) and it is the same for everyone as long as they can afford to subscribe or plex the account they want to train.
As far as I can see many of those proposing skill purchase and remaps basically can't get there heads round the fact they can't have everything NOW and are willing to wreck a fundamental part of the game for the sake of short term gratification and an inability to live with the consequences of their decisions like the rest of us have.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
997
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 11:23:14 -
[168] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:.. One thing I was thinking about is rewarding SPs for PVP. If you blow up another player's ship, you get a small amount of SP towards your skill currently in training....
Thoughts?
So someone just has there alts orbiting each other blowing ships up in duels to boost SP gain... |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 14:09:56 -
[169] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:JoeSomebody wrote:.. One thing I was thinking about is rewarding SPs for PVP. If you blow up another player's ship, you get a small amount of SP towards your skill currently in training....
Thoughts? So someone just has their alts orbiting each other blowing ships up in duels to boost SP gain... Perhaps you should've read the stuff you replaced with "..."
Tiddle Jr wrote:JoeSomebody wrote:Well there are other options...
One thing I was thinking about is rewarding SPs for PVP. If you blow up another player's ship, you get a small amount of SP towards your skill currently in training. The actual amount would depend on the relative value of the ship blown up versus ship(s) on the killmail. I.e. you get pretty much nothing from destroying rookie ships, while a t2 cruiser or a BS would give you a fair bit. If you pod another player then the amount would be determined by the relative SP difference. Podding an old player could be quite lucrative, while killing a newbie would grant almost nothing.
In both cases the victim would be a subject to diminishing returns. Alternatively, victim could lose the same amount of SP if diminishing returns is not enough to deal with abuse.
A notable side effect: Invigorated PVP.
Side effect 2: ships blowing up more = outflow of excess ISK
I mean this isn't anything new. It is pretty much how rewards system work in any PvP game worth the title.
Thoughts? So you saying that RvB, CODE, and smiling saint egg etc are going to be the most SP's pilots in game? Wow, you people just can't read... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
999
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 14:54:21 -
[170] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:JoeSomebody wrote:.. One thing I was thinking about is rewarding SPs for PVP. If you blow up another player's ship, you get a small amount of SP towards your skill currently in training....
Thoughts? So someone just has their alts orbiting each other blowing ships up in duels to boost SP gain... Perhaps you should've read the stuff you replaced with "..." ... Wow, you people just can't read...
I did read it, rich players would happily throw a few dozen BS at this to boost a skill in training. Oh and the idea of gaining SP from podding someone is just horrible. A player shouldn't lose SP beyond losing a tech III ship and I think they are looking to remove that? |
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Sirran The Lunatic
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
18
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 15:00:14 -
[171] - Quote
Buying sp sounds like the worst idea for Eve, ever. I'd just quit if it became a pay to win, and take my accounts with me.
Remapping of trained SP though... I'd pay $100 to remap all my wasted leadership skills, since grid boosting is rarely used in my line of work. |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 15:44:09 -
[172] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I did read it, rich players would happily throw a few dozen BS at this to boost a skill in training. Like I said, if the target loses equal amount of SP, then the net gain remains zero. At best you're wasting ISK to transfer SP from one of your characters to another. Add diminishing returns on top of that, and suicide boosting becomes completely impractical.
Quote:Oh and the idea of gaining SP from podding someone is just horrible. Why is that? If you have 100mil SP and pod someone with 5mil SP, you should rightfully get zero SP out of it.
Quote: A player shouldn't lose SP beyond losing a tech III ship and I think they are looking to remove that? I don't know what you mean by that. |
Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 16:16:12 -
[173] - Quote
Losing SP at death would only drive away a lot of the more casual players. Sure it would work out for elite pvpers who know what they're doing, but for every winner there is a loser and players who die a lot would just see their SP keep going backwards. For them it would be worse than what we have now. |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 16:23:50 -
[174] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:Losing SP at death would only drive away a lot of the more casual players. Sure it would work out for elite pvpers who know what they're doing, but for every winner there is a loser and players who die a lot would just see their SP keep going backwards. For them it would be worse than what we have now. Not if your loss to experienced PvPer is really small and a gain from a kill of the said experienced PvPer is rather nice. Likewise it would discourage older player from praying specifically on newbies as it would be a low risk of a hefty loss for meager (or zero) gains, and consequently - meager (or zero) loss on the part of the newbie.
Common guys, I'm not inventing anything here, this is PvP rewards 101. Consider the proposition in its entirety instead of cherry-picking. All these issues have been dealt with before. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
739
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 18:06:40 -
[175] - Quote
I can't actually think of a proposal that wouldn't do more to encourage risk aversion and discourage PvP than this.
A large number of people won't PvP if they have dirt cheap +1 implants and cheap hardwires in half the time, what is losing those compared to the risk of SP loss?
Plus it would also make smart bombing Proteus pilots the highest SP and most common pilots in the game.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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GordonO
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP
94
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 19:46:14 -
[176] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:Mehrune Khan wrote:Losing SP at death would only drive away a lot of the more casual players. Sure it would work out for elite pvpers who know what they're doing, but for every winner there is a loser and players who die a lot would just see their SP keep going backwards. For them it would be worse than what we have now. Not if your loss to experienced PvPer is really small and a gain from a kill of the said experienced PvPer is rather nice. Likewise it would discourage older player from praying specifically on newbies as it would be a low risk of a hefty loss for meager (or zero) gains, and consequently - meager (or zero) loss on the part of the newbie. Common guys, I'm not inventing anything here, this is PvP rewards 101. Consider the proposition in its entirety instead of cherry-picking. All these issues have been dealt with before.
This is silly.. everyone would then just join the code and gank the hell out of everyone who didn't. Would you buy a car if you were told that every time someone passes you your car will become less fuel efficient ?? People pay to play the game, no one is but a select few will pay to have the opportunity to go backwards in a game. EVE has a great systems, just leave it as it is. Pay to win exists, allowing skill remaps is a great idea as once you find your niche.. you have a lot of "wasted" skill points. Also lets not forget what this is about, CCP making money.. same as dual character training, PLEX's etc. its a win win.. CCP makes money.. I get choices..
.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
999
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 20:22:47 -
[177] - Quote
GordonO wrote:... Also lets not forget what this is about, CCP making money.. same as dual character training, PLEX's etc. its a win win.. CCP makes money.. I get choices..
...and those who can't afford the remaps are at a much greater disadvantage to those that can. |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 21:24:27 -
[178] - Quote
GordonO wrote:This is silly.. everyone would then just join the code and gank the hell out of everyone who didn't. Nothing stops you from doing that right now. Yet major opposing alliances exist and have been for a very long time.
Quote: Would you buy a car if you were told that every time someone passes you your car will become less fuel efficient ?? That's an invalid comparison, but even if it was, what we have right now is much worse. Those who started earlier will forever be in the lead and have the best cars.
Quote:People pay to play the game, no one is but a select few will pay to have the opportunity to go backwards in a game. Or forward, depending on your skill or luck... just like you know... every single competitive game out there.
Quote:EVE has a great systems, just leave it as it is. No. EVE has a lot of great stuff, but its character progression is utter garbage. This thread is a testament to that.
Quote:Pay to win exists, allowing skill remaps is a great idea as once you find your niche.. you have a lot of "wasted" skill points. Also lets not forget what this is about, CCP making money.. same as dual character training, PLEX's etc. its a win win.. CCP makes money.. I get choices..
That only works if you have a non-stale game with constant influx of new players who are not put off by having to compete against people they can never match BY DESIGN. As a side effect, older players are bored out of their minds and passing time griefing in high sec or hotdropping an absurd firepower to kill a lone cruiser. Unsurprisingly the active player count has been on a steady decline. If that is indeed CCPs position, then I don't see myself playing for too much longer. However I think you're projecting your own opinion onto them here to preserve the status quo. I don't know if I can put your concerns to rest, but we already have an in-game mechanic that prevents everyone from flying faction battleships - it is called ISK. We don't need time-gated content on top of that.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
999
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 21:44:54 -
[179] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote: People pay to play the game, no one is but a select few will pay to have the opportunity to go backwards in a game.
Or forward, depending on your skill or luck... just like you know... every single competitive game out there. [/quote]
Eve isn't every game, why should it be like all the others?
JoeSomebody wrote:EVE has a great systems, just leave it as it is. No. EVE has a lot of great stuff, but its character progression is utter garbage. This thread is a testament to that. [/quote]
Actually it's testament to the fact that ISD got sick and tired of closing the threads that kept being opened without ever using the search function and replying into an existing thread.
JoeSomebody wrote:That only works if you have a non-stale game with constant influx of new players who are not put off by having to compete against people they can never match BY DESIGN. As a side effect, older players are bored out of their minds and passing time griefing in high sec or hotdropping an absurd firepower to kill a lone cruiser. Unsurprisingly the active player count has been on a steady decline. If that is indeed CCPs position, then I don't see myself playing for too much longer. However I think you're projecting your own opinion onto them here to preserve the status quo. I don't know if I can put your concerns to rest, but we already have an in-game mechanic that prevents everyone from flying faction battleships - it is called ISK. We don't need time-gated content on top of that.
New players 'never being able to match' old players is a complete fallacy. There are a limited number of skills used in any given hull/career and they all top out at level V. I am just as perfect an explorer skill wise as a character that's been here since eve started as we can both only max out exactly the same set of subskills. I caught up to the older player in around 6 months of training. Wasn't that hard to be patient about it either since I was busy with other things in the game too.
The older players also hotdrop people simply because they can and want to win. They can gank exactly the same way in hisec with minimal skilled cat pilots. SP is not a factor in killing people in a blopb, just the number of ships you drop in. Even the cyno alt in a hot drop is a minimum skilled alt most often... |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 22:05:28 -
[180] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Eve isn't every game, why should it be like all the others? That's a non point. Some mechanics are objectively good, and some are not so much. Being tested by other games at very least show us it is not a failure.
Quote:Actually it's testament to the fact that ISD got sick and tired of closing the threads that kept being opened without ever using the search function and replying into an existing thread. My point was that many people are interested in/concerned by this subject. You've only supported it.
Quote:New players 'never being able to match' old players is a complete fallacy. There are a limited number of skills used in any given hull/career and they all top out at level V. I am just as perfect an explorer skill wise as a character that's been here since eve started as we can both only max out exactly the same set of subskills. I caught up to the older player in around 6 months of training. Wasn't that hard to be patient about it either since I was busy with other things in the game too. Engineering, Armor/Shields, Navigation, Targeting, Drones, Ship command (at least few selected ship types), Rigging, and of course a weapon system of choice. You need to have all those at level 5 and you're still blocked from other content.
Quote:The older players also hotdrop people simply because they can and want to win. They can gank exactly the same way in hisec with minimal skilled cat pilots. SP is not a factor in killing people in a blopb, just the number of ships you drop in. Even the cyno alt in a hot drop is a minimum skilled alt most often... Again, you missed the point. It is a boring thing to do. I am not even against it, I am simply citing it as an evidence of a distinct lack of PvP action in the game if people have to resort to cyno bait to find someone willing to fight in nullsec. |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
999
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 22:43:52 -
[181] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:That's a non point. Some mechanics are objectively good, and some are not so much. Being tested by other games at very least show us it is not a failure.
It's a perfectly valid point, you want Eve to simply be a clone of all the other MMO's? I don't and that's why I don't play the others
JoeSomebody wrote:My point was that many people are interested in/concerned by this subject. You've only supported it.
They kept making the same points that kept being shot down. This is a dumping ground for all comments to stop clogging the main board whilst CCP do whatever they are going to do with clone and implants anyway.
JoeSomebody wrote:Engineering, Armor/Shields, Navigation, Targeting, Drones, Ship command (at least few selected ship types), Rigging, and of course a weapon system of choice. You need to have all those at level 5 and you're still blocked from other content.
you aren't blocked from other content, you just have to train for it over time just like everyone else. drop that time by a 3rd and people will still complain about waiting.
JoeSomebody wrote:Again, you missed the point. It is a boring thing to do. I am not even against it, I am simply citing it as an evidence of a distinct lack of PvP action in the game if people have to resort to cyno bait to find someone willing to fight in nullsec.
The lack of PvP is not because of people having low SP but because a large number don't want to PvP. Join faction war, launch wardecs, roam thorugh known areas of null where people live for fights. Not eveyone wants to PvP and there is much more to eve than simply that. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
80
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 23:20:56 -
[182] - Quote
The only right way to manage your SP's is working with what you already got and what you plan to train further. No skills for PLEX or isk or either real cash. It's pretty clear that skill points re-maps is the right approach at least it's sound like a compromis at this point. It's definatelly should be limited once a yaer excercise giving you enough time to understand what is your further plan or what ccp has prepared for the next half of the year.
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GordonO
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP
95
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 00:09:07 -
[183] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:GordonO wrote:... Also lets not forget what this is about, CCP making money.. same as dual character training, PLEX's etc. its a win win.. CCP makes money.. I get choices..
...and those who can't afford the remaps are at a much greater disadvantage to those that can.
all it takes is a plex.. few hours effort in the right place and you have made enough isk to get the plex.. if you need help/advise on how to do this.. first thing to do is find another corp that will help you.. or mail me and I can offer some advice..
.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
999
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 00:17:40 -
[184] - Quote
GordonO wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:GordonO wrote:... Also lets not forget what this is about, CCP making money.. same as dual character training, PLEX's etc. its a win win.. CCP makes money.. I get choices..
...and those who can't afford the remaps are at a much greater disadvantage to those that can. all it takes is a plex.. few hours effort in the right place and you have made enough isk to get the plex.. if you need help/advise on how to do this.. first thing to do is find another corp that will help you.. or mail me and I can offer some advice..
I have plexedmy account since I joined but many players don't/can't/haven't the time to. This would put them at an unfair disadvantage where now it is at least mainly even in training terms. |
GordonO
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP
95
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 00:28:02 -
[185] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:GordonO wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:GordonO wrote:... Also lets not forget what this is about, CCP making money.. same as dual character training, PLEX's etc. its a win win.. CCP makes money.. I get choices..
...and those who can't afford the remaps are at a much greater disadvantage to those that can. all it takes is a plex.. few hours effort in the right place and you have made enough isk to get the plex.. if you need help/advise on how to do this.. first thing to do is find another corp that will help you.. or mail me and I can offer some advice.. I have plexedmy account since I joined but many players don't/can't/haven't the time to. This would put them at an unfair disadvantage where now it is at least mainly even in training terms.
1hr a day can easily get you minimum 80-100mil. But just to be clear.. I am not advocating buying SP.. while that would be awesome, it wouldn't be fair to many. I am supporting the ability to be able to move SP from one place to another.
.
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Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 01:07:33 -
[186] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:The only right way to manage your SP's is working with what you already got and what you plan to train further. No skills for PLEX or isk or either real cash. It's pretty clear that skill points re-maps is the right approach at least it's sound like a compromis at this point. It's definatelly should be limited once a yaer excercise giving you enough time to understand what is your further plan or what ccp has prepared for the next half of the year.
+1
If it was limited to once every 12 months it would prevent players from exploiting the hell out of it and being able to fly different ships each day of the week. It also lets those of us who aren't the best skill planners or weren't sure what we wanted to do when we started to re-focus our skills towards our favored style of play. |
Scira Crimson
No Tax No
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 10:44:59 -
[187] - Quote
For me the whole SP-system is shouting out loudly: "Are you new? OK, then get the FK off. You are a worthless piece of **** and a 2nd class player"
I know this topic is very controversial and has been discussed a lot but imo the "progress by offline time" is a HUUUUGE FUNDAMENTAL game design mistake.
It puts artifical unfairness onto new player, everybody who claims something different is probably not able to read and add numbers.
Here are some arguments why the Skillsystem is unfair:
1, multiplicative combat boni (in a PvP game! Thats ridicoulius!). If you do "only" 5% more damage, the whole aspect of fair comepetition is undermined. Of course I know that there is no fair competition and the game is "won" by playing metagames and prepareation. However, low SP artificially loweres the possibilities you have by a great margin.
2, "escalating difficulty" - This means new players have disadvantages which stack with each other: -lower initial combat stats -lower knowledge -requirement disadvantage (for instance, Id have to use expansive faction items to be on par with cheaper fitted T2 people and even then my raw combat power is lower. So, as a new player I have to invest more in order to be competitive. How does this make sense? I doesnt. All it does is effectvly exclude new player from PvP) I dont get it why veteran player, who have more knowledge and experience, also get an excessive passiv bonus.
All those 5% boni are MUCH TOO MUCH for a PvP driven game. If at all, those boni should be 1-2% to allow new player meaningful participation in PvP. I wouldnt be surprised if a master 5 pilot has like ~30% more raw combat power than a master 4 pilot.(stat * stat * stat * etc)
3, The SP system is actually an antikeep up mechanic!
An argument which is often used: "But all the veterans also had to wait years to be useful" but I can tell you why is argument is nonsense:
"Relative competition"
Ofc 10 years ago, you could do well with 5 mio SP in PvP. But today the situation changed. Like 90% of all pople who try to hunt you down or are eager to PvP use T2 or T3s. And even if somebody uses a "weak" faction ship, he probably has most skills on 4-5. There is no way to compete with this, even if you fit your ship properly. The passive combat power through skills is huge.
I come from League of Legends and as a very competitive player I can tell you: Even if you do 3% less damage, you are on a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE vs equally skilled player. And 3% doesnt seem like a lot... But in EVE, the Master 4 -> 5 differance is probably like ~30% Ridiculous.
I can tell you what the SP System did for me:
-loss of at least 1b. For a beginner its much, but I can take it. Analysing the situation: If I had a covert cloak instead of a normal one, Id have made it. Another situation. I lost a garmur. Was faster than my chaser who had warp scrambled me. When I died distance was like ~33 km.(vs other garmur, so he had high range) If I had accelleration control on 3+ instead of 1 and slightly more tankyness Id easily made it.
The losses are not the problem:
-I have to high sec carebear, because for low sec I am too weak. Would like to go to low or even null sec, but it does not make sense currently. And high sec is tedious, because missions are boring and everything else(sites etc) is camped by other care bearers.
-If I make a choice I will be locked in it for the nex months. Some may say this is good, because it gives choice weight, but its contradictionary to eve onlines game design: You can do a shitton of things and to be efficient in one of those things you have to "offline progress" for like 3-6 months at least. And then you find out the activity you specialized in is boring? In my case: I do low efficient null sec exploration with astero. If I go for T2 explorer and suddently find out exploration becomes tedious after a while I am fked. -corp and alliance restriction. To be fair, I have to say that I have not been neglected yet, but when I read "only members with 10+mio SP" I can puke. Espacially as I know more about the game than 80+% of the player base (as I am extremly eager to learn game mechanics. In most games learning the game is more fun to me than actually playing it...)
I dont think its wrong in a game like eve online to be able to do all the stuff. The limiting factor should not be skills, but TIME and EFFORT. Also most skills are not exclusive to each other, a general rules apply: the more the better -> thus, there is nothing like "specializsation". The longer you "offline grinded" the better you are. No meaningful choice involved.
I could add a bunch more stuff why the SP system sucks but to come back to the actually topic:
Buying SP should be in the game as a keep up mechanic. Good PvP games always have mechanics to keep players closer together. It would actually also benefit the veteran players: less carebearing in High sec and more corp and alliance action
Actually EVE online must be an incredible good game because it has not died out yet because of the SP system...Haha If EVE was only mediocre the new player base would go down like crazy. 100% sure.
My idea of how the SP should look like (its not refined though):
-no Offline SP gain -new item: "Skillbook" which gives 1000 SP and is aquireable from A LOT of different activities (in the ideal case you can get SP Books from any activity) -Skillbook is tradeable -Now the interesting part: For every 1 mio SP you already have, using a Skillbook gives 10 SP less. So if you have 50 mio SP, you will get only 500 SP by using a skillbook. -Reset of Skills possible for a high cost
This idea has flaws, but its a way to begin with. I know it will never become real, because almost people in any game are against major changes, espacially if it could be a seemingly disadvantage for them.
Btw.: I never played WoW. (to avoid a lot of empty answer phrases) |
Memphis Baas
217
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 12:24:45 -
[188] - Quote
IMO you have a few misconceptions about the skill system, the primary one being that a 5% skill bonus makes that much of a difference. Because it's not just skills that contribute to a kill, you get much bigger bonuses from the ship and the tech installed in it, and bring a friend = 100% bonus. An extra 5% wouldn't make a difference vs. your enemy bringing an extra guy, basically.
I played WoW and SWTOR, and basically unless you're max level you're a second class citizen. Your level is a clear indication, and unlike this game where you can take your newbie ship and go to the most dangerous nullsec or wormhole, and maybe not survive but maybe yes, you can't even enter max level a raid zone or ranked PVP unless you're within level range.
You can expect to reach max level in WoW and the gear to do something with it in about 3 months. But that's one character, and thus you're limited to either tank, healer, or DPS, but not any combos of these. You can expect to master a ship in EVE in about the same time.
The 4 year veterans with millions of SP's are the equivalent of the 4 year WoW hardcore players with about 10 different characters all maxed out and with latest tier purple gear. It really functions the same way; you can't log into WoW with your tank AND your healer at the same time (on the same account), and you can't pilot a Maller AND an Exequror in EVE at the same time (on the same account).
So, IMO, CCP is basically following the MMO standards out there, as far as time spent vs. progress.
A second misconception is that skillpoints are preventing you from competing with the veterans, when in fact it's ISK. Imagine you had 50 million skillpoints but could only afford T1 ships (because you spent all your ISK buying that 50 mil SP character), and tell me how you're going to win when I don't care about fielding a 2 billion ISK bling ship with all the latest officer mods for extra 5% this and 10% that, that require the same skill to fly as you have but a lot more cash in the wallet.
I am pro skill points remapping, and buying, but realize that it's the same as saying, in WoW, "Blizzard, take my warrior tank in purple gear and give me a maxed out priest in equivalent (but priestly) purple gear." A change in SP's would let me fly different ships, in effect changing my roles in-game. |
GordonO
Evil Guinea Pigs
95
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 22:47:47 -
[189] - Quote
Scira Crimson wrote:lots of stuff....)
You assume only PVE happens in HS.. there are way more farmers in null and wh's. Kiling PVE in eve will kill the game. You also assume in game SP makes you a better pvp'er.. well it doesn't go watch some vids in eve is easy you tube channel You also say you cannot survive in null or ls.. again rot.. there are many who do it from day 1 and prosper. Two month in to eve I had 2 bil in my wallet.. there are those who do that even quicker.
You need to do some research or find a better corp cause clearly you doing it wrong.. or have been led down the garden path..
.
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Oxide Ammar
189
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 08:38:44 -
[190] - Quote
If I ever want to Plex for skill remapping (which I would) is to reorganize some of the wasted trained skills in my characters, especially if you have indy skills on pvp centric character and vice versa. OCD players will understand me much better
Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2325
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 12:30:26 -
[191] - Quote
Say NO to pay2win.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 17:22:10 -
[192] - Quote
instant titan/super holding alts anybody? just cause they're nerfed today likely means they'll be buffed some time in the future, after all they are resource superhogs which drives a lot of economic demand and content creation ( miners, haulers, pos's). wouldn't it be wonderful to not have to waste one of your favorite, pvp skill packed alts for a space coffin when you could just instantly have one with the minimum skills to drive it around the block?
You are content to be content. This is not a jedi mind trick, its just a game
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JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 23:00:40 -
[193] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:instant titan/super holding alts anybody? just cause they're nerfed today likely means they'll be buffed some time in the future, after all they are resource superhogs which drives a lot of economic demand and content creation ( miners, haulers, pos's). wouldn't it be wonderful to not have to waste one of your favorite, pvp skill packed alts for a space coffin when you could just instantly have one with the minimum skills to drive it around the block? Game balance should't rely on how long it takes to train requirements to fly something, but rather on ships themselves. Additionally, you shouldn't be locked away from in-game content by the two years of subscription fees. If you can make ISK for fly a titan within a week - why the hell shouldn't you?
Daichi Yamato wrote:Say NO to pay2win. As much as I dislike pay-to-win, it is far better than pay-to-wait system we have now. |
JoeSomebody
Hungry Moonz Klan
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 23:18:12 -
[194] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: It's a perfectly valid point, you want Eve to simply be a clone of all the other MMO's? I don't and that's why I don't play the others You didn't refute my point in any way, so it stands.
Quote:They kept making the same points that kept being shot down. This is a dumping ground for all comments to stop clogging the main board whilst CCP do whatever they are going to do with clone and implants anyway. Then why don't you do the same to my point? So far you've said nothing of substance other than being a bitter reactionary.
Quote:you aren't blocked from other content, you just have to train for it over time just like everyone else Oh, I am sorry, I must've imagined ton of skill requirements on every ship and module. I probably should l2p if I can't just jump into a HAC or a capital ship on my new alt, and be like "oh it's ok, I'll train the skills later". I mean if there is a skill mortgage system in EVE, I must've missed it.
Quote: drop that time by a 3rd and people will still complain about waiting. YES! Because WAITING IS BAD. You shouldn't WAIT in a GAME to be able to do something. The game has to provide a meaningful connection between your actions and the outcome. The system where you character progresses regardless of anything you do or even playing at all is objectively terrible, doesn't matter how long it takes.
Quote:The lack of PvP is not because of people having low SP but because a large number don't want to PvP. Could it be because PvP isn't rewarding enough AND heavily favors older players? |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
739
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 08:22:32 -
[195] - Quote
Reasons not to have SP purchase or skill remaps:
Tippia wrote:It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
While I'm pretty meh about the first two points myself as it looks like attributes are going the way of the dodo I do believe the rest to be valid.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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davet517
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 10:21:10 -
[196] - Quote
I think it's a reasonable thing to have, given that CCP periodically decides to "rebalance" things that you've trained for after you trained for them that makes you wish you hadn't. Of my 150m skill points, I have some of those.
I think the most reasonable way to deal with it, is to allow players to get a mild boost to their training rate by slowly cannibalizing skills that they don't want anymore. If you set a skill to be canabilized, it declines at maybe 30% of your training rate while giving you a 30% boost to the skill that you are training.
It's wishful thinking, of course. Skill points in Eve are cash to CCP. Subscription time is money, and skills take time. Yes, you can buy time with plex, but someone had to buy that plex, and pay a premium to do so. So, CCP has no incentive whatsoever to put this into the game. Having skills that you don't want anymore is sunk cost. Your loss, their gain. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2383
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 10:56:11 -
[197] - Quote
Pay for more SP already exists, as does pay for more ISK; neither is pay to win.
I do not fear having ways to buy skillpoints, as long as they are properly limited. The waiting game needs still exist, not because it is an important part of a game, but because it is an integral part of this game.
CSM X: Sabriz Adoudel, Mike Azariah, Xander Phoena, Sugar Kyle, Corbexx, Jenshae Chiroptera, Marlona Sky, Tora Bushido
Highsec reform thread
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Neugeniko
Insight Securities
62
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 11:43:43 -
[198] - Quote
With attributes and everything associated with it on the cutting board, the loopholes with SP remapping would be closed.
I think it will come and welcome it in a limited fashion. Rather than remapping a certain percentage of your total SP. It should be a percentage of the last years SP gain, available for remapping once a year. This would limit the adaptability of older players compared to newer. They already have a advantage of being specialized in more ships.
Cheers, Neug
Indices/Mining Simulator V3.8 UPDATED
Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.3
Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2332
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 15:29:44 -
[199] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Say NO to pay2win. As much as I dislike pay-to-win, it is far better than pay-to-wait system we have now.
Dont be silly.
Pay to win is broken. 'Pay to wait' is relatively frustrating. it just depends if you have the attention span of a five year old or not.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
417
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 15:41:23 -
[200] - Quote
As much as I would dearly love to refund/reallocate useless skills I trained as a noob, before I knew any better.
No no no no no.
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
67
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 04:11:06 -
[201] - Quote
Idk what all the no sayers think, but every year or two you should be able to clean up your characters from the newbro experience to the focused character you have become..
The training time is already invested, so it is by no means "pay to win" other than irritating som character speculants earning their isks on character basar.
Years go, interess shift, lessons learned..
Edit: It might even help against player burnout, as training take a shitload of time and many just logs out untill they can finally do whatever they where training for.. |
Nicola Romanoff
Quantum Innovations Limited
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 10:39:39 -
[202] - Quote
Whilst I hate waiting for skills, I would hate paying for skills even more. But I've some ideas.
- I would like to see a remap option maybe every 6 months rather than the year it is now, I think a year is too long.
- I would like to see some of the higher ranked skills which take a long time to train reduced so that they donGÇÖt take so long to train, I am not sure of what kind of percentage but say everything over rank 5 has a 15% reduction in training time or something like that. Then there is still waiting for skills, just not as much waiting.
- I would like clearer searches to show me skills the benefit certain actions. For example currently I would have to read the descriptions on a high number of skills or search online for all skills that reduce powergrid requirements for example. I would like that search available in game so if I am getting PG issues I can quickly isolate the skills that help with PG (either by increasing it or reducing the PG needs of modules/weapons etc.
- I would like to be able to add SP to my queue, including which level I would like then train to from the mastery screen of the ship I am looking at. For example if I am looking at Mastery V for a ships that needs cloaking level V the I can right click > add to queue and it would add all 5 levels to the queue.
- Coupled with the above I would like to then, within the queue in eve be able to optimize that queue by at least time so to shorter trains go the top and cascade down (pre-requisites would need to be taken into account of course).
+1 to +5 implants would still exist, it is down to the individual if they want to risk ISK by getting those implants.
There may be of course issues with these that I have not thought of, so rather than launch into some vitriol about no no no no no or learn to use search just explain what the potential downsides are.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1002
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 11:40:50 -
[203] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:You didn't refute my point in any way, so it stands.
My not wanting Eve to be like all other MMO's is my point. Why should it be? Why shouldn't CCP make their game differentr from the others out there?
JoeSomebody wrote:Then why don't you do the same to my point? So far you've said nothing of substance other than being a bitter reactionary. Thanks for the chuckle, that's the first time I've ever been called bitter and reactionary, if holding the same opinion now about this as I did the first time I saw the idea around 13 months ago is reactionary I do wonder what conservative would be...and how does proposing sweeping changes to the whole basis of skills and training within Eve not make you reactionary?
JoeSomebody wrote:Oh, I am sorry, I must've imagined ton of skill requirements on every ship and module. I probably should l2p if I can't just jump into a HAC or a capital ship on my new alt, and be like "oh it's ok, I'll train the skills later". I mean if there is a skill mortgage system in EVE, I must've missed it.
In my opinion it is a good thing that you can't just go jump into a HAC or FotM T3, BS or any other high end ship. A game should have progression whether it is via character levels, platform levels, unlocking equipment, etc etc. The progression in Eve cmes through your training, and the choices you make have an impact on this. The content is not locked to you if you go along with corp members with higher skills than you and run the content along with them whatever it may be. For example You can try hacking a Superior Sleeper cache in a tech I scanning frig with tech I analyzers if a corpmate gives you the location, you just won't succeed very much.
JoeSomebody wrote:YES! Because WAITING IS BAD. You shouldn't WAIT in a GAME to be able to do something. The game has to provide a meaningful connection between your actions and the outcome. The system where you character progresses regardless of anything you do or even playing at all is objectively terrible, doesn't matter how long it takes.
Waiting is not bad when it is governing your progression in game and doing so whether you are logged in or not. Everybody is equal in this respect. You believe the system to be objectively terrible, I see your opinion as entirely subjective since I like it just fine as it is. Printing something in capital letters does not automatically make your point the only correct one.
JoeSomebody wrote:Could it be because PvP isn't rewarding enough AND heavily favors older players? That depends on your point of view. I simply don't like PvP and I have plenty of skills that should make me proficient at it. I'm not an older player but can fly Ishkurs at maximum level V skills in all relevant areas. I might go into frig WH's to play around there but that would be because I enjoy exploration, not becasue I'm looking for PvP. Whether PvP is rewarding is purely subjective as each player will have diferent measures to determine this.
In terms of skills and remaps you seem to be only considering PvP here. How would you suggest managing other areas of eve such as mining, invention, manufacture, explo? These are governed by skills also, the more time invested in training in these areas, the more you can do and more easily. I believe this is a good and fair way to rewards those who have invested the time and money to focus on those areas and that is only balanced by the current SP mechanisms. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 04:52:29 -
[204] - Quote
My newbie $0.02:
I'd certainly spend some PLEX on some kind of accelerated training scheme. For example: One PLEX gets you a 100%? 75%? increase in base training speed (not adjusted for implants) for one month. To keep a lid on it, you should be limited in how many times you can do this. Say five or six times per character or per account?
Malcanis' Law be damned.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
273
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 08:10:35 -
[205] - Quote
Is this thread dead yet?
Hell ISD agreed with my deployment of the "this is ******** posting" on page one... |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
281
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 21:48:58 -
[206] - Quote
CCP will no doubt remove all attributes from the game and add a generic SP / hr amount for everyone, all attribute implants will be changed to sp/hr accelerator implants (1%-6% or what not) and finally the plex for neural remaps will become a moot point
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
GÇÖChilde Roland to the Dark Tower came.GÇÖ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3oMRLfArU
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Asura Vajrarupa
Rust Jihad
40
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 00:56:18 -
[207] - Quote
Why not just have sp accrue on an account instead of a character, and then if you biomass a character that sp goes back into the account pool. Then I could buy characters off the bazaar and just eat them. Eat the delicious characters.
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
|
Dalto Bane
Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc. Safety's Set To Red
153
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 03:12:18 -
[208] - Quote
I like living with all the mistakes I've made in allocating my SP and you all should too...Big no from me
Drops Mic
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Mehrune Khan
Viziam Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 22:39:07 -
[209] - Quote
Asura Vajrarupa wrote:Why not just have sp accrue on an account instead of a character, and then if you biomass a character that sp goes back into the account pool. Then I could buy characters off the bazaar and just eat them. Eat the delicious characters.
I have to admit this is a creative solution that both gives us a way to speed up our character development and also continues to support the bazaar. I like it. |
Asura Vajrarupa
Rust Jihad
41
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 02:51:09 -
[210] - Quote
Mehrune Khan wrote:Asura Vajrarupa wrote:Why not just have sp accrue on an account instead of a character, and then if you biomass a character that sp goes back into the account pool. Then I could buy characters off the bazaar and just eat them. Eat the delicious characters. I have to admit this is a creative solution that both gives us a way to speed up our character development and also continues to support the bazaar. I like it.
CCP could even gate the sp recovered so they could get their plex sales. Say, A plex for every 5-10 million unlocked and back in the pool. Then we could eat the delicious characters.
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
|
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ekimju
The Back Yard Twilight Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 03:09:05 -
[211] - Quote
it's embarrassing in some ways, first started years ago but quit for a long time, watching the tournament videos drawn me back in. no idea what i was doing back then at all, , im still learning alot coming back recently.. the one time skill point revamp or able to buy one would kickkkk asssssss...
i had no clue about what ships did back then or how they would work in groups, i know alot of other players and new ones have had this problem aswell in the past and present. i trained in so many skills i wish i didn't . more money is always good, right ? :P
i would pay for it if possible. |
Xackattack Avianson
Tempest Sickle Allah
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 01:41:22 -
[212] - Quote
Can we remove attributes so that i can train max speed AND use the genolution set? |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1621
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:24:53 -
[213] - Quote
One day the dream of removing convoluted legacy mechanics, that add nothing more than complexity for it's own sake, and add no game play value, will be realised. and they will be purged into the bowels of the historic archive, to be only remember by ancient bittervets.
Dare to dream.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
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Petre en Thielles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 15:23:38 -
[214] - Quote
You can already pay plex to remap. The forum for it is here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=277 I use it all the time. |
Natsuko Kanami
Nesto Piratski
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 13:11:31 -
[215] - Quote
I'm in favor of being able to remap SP as long as it involves no sort of pay to win scheme. Make it work a bit like attribute remapping - give us a free remap only once a year, and perhaps a bonus remap on occasion.
In addition, there should be a limit to how much SP you can remap at a time. Being able to remap your entire skillset would be a bit broken. Something like 5-10% of your current total SP would be reasonable. |
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
266
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 21:58:41 -
[216] - Quote
Pay to win is stupid. People, cough, have spent years training their characters and you will have a mighty mad player base.
You make bad decisions, you suffer for them. This is what makes Eve better than virtually any other game. That being said, I don't, myself, have any skill points I regret picking*, you will always find a use for them.
*with the exception of training light missiles up to be a bad ass malediction pilot, you bastards
No changes to skill points EVER!!!
|
GordonO
Evil Guinea Pigs
100
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 22:13:26 -
[217] - Quote
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:Pay to win is stupid. People, cough, have spent years training their characters and you will have a mighty mad player base.
You make bad decisions, you suffer for them. This is what makes Eve better than virtually any other game. That being said, I don't, myself, have any skill points I regret picking*, you will always find a use for them.
*with the exception of training light missiles up to be a bad ass malediction pilot, you bastards
I trained astrometrics to 5 to use deep space probes, CCP took them away. I have no intention of using this toon to build covert portals. So yea..
EVGP Is recruiting https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=412227
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
85
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 02:41:52 -
[218] - Quote
No - SP for PLEX
Yes - SP remap
|
So riya
Lost in shadow Brothers of Tangra
11
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:11:41 -
[219] - Quote
Alot of eve patch make players want to remap his skills .. Its a good idea than we can remap those skills. . The same this last patch all players want to be able remap his fighter skills. ... Change funtion of ship = remap ship skills Too |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1030
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 15:30:12 -
[220] - Quote
And this is why I say no to any remap at all. People complain that skill X has changed so they want to remap to skill Y which is still effective. Where does it end? Patches come through every 6 weeks, what if you remap after one patch only to find the next patch nerfs something else you do? Then you petition for 4 remaps per year? 6 remaps? It would never end, and the same applies to any means of buying/remapping SP - it will never be enough because of *reasons*. Much better to keep it at the current relatively fair system.
If a skill is changed and is no longer useful in your current playstyle then adapt, either change playstyle or train other skills. Whilst the skill(s) in question were viable a player using those skills got the benefit of having them. I see the nerfs etc as a balancing mechanism of sorts that allow newer players to effectively 'catch up' to older players in the skills of the current meta as everybody ends up training into the new meta skillset from a more level playing field.
|
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1199
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 19:30:50 -
[221] - Quote
PLEX for remaps? ok.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
85
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 21:12:23 -
[222] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:And this is why I say no to any remap at all. People complain that skill X has changed so they want to remap to skill Y which is still effective. Where does it end? Patches come through every 6 weeks, what if you remap after one patch only to find the next patch nerfs something else you do? Then you petition for 4 remaps per year? 6 remaps? It would never end, and the same applies to any means of buying/remapping SP - it will never be enough because of *reasons*. Much better to keep it at the current relatively fair system.
If a skill is changed and is no longer useful in your current playstyle then adapt, either change playstyle or train other skills. Whilst the skill(s) in question were viable a player using those skills got the benefit of having them. I see the nerfs etc as a balancing mechanism of sorts that allow newer players to effectively 'catch up' to older players in the skills of the current meta as everybody ends up training into the new meta skillset from a more level playing field.
It is Not every 6 weeks you see such a major shake ups.
Once a year re-map is fine. Especially if CCP would remove atributes imps.
Please explain how should focused SC pilot adopt? |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
85
|
Posted - 2015.03.26 21:13:18 -
[223] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:PLEX for remaps? ok.
Similar to skills for PLEX. Which is deff NO NO. |
3mi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 00:15:45 -
[224] - Quote
my opinion [replay for first post]
geting more sp, in not a problem, you just go to char bazar and you buy amout of sp you like, problem is if you wish get more sp to specific charcter, geting sp for char, wich you wish play, and it will take long time to get amout of sp you wuold like to have on this char, in my opinion only solution in that situation that not destroy char market is option to give option to change and/or swap char id, name , look and all other thing thats are realated with char and are not sp [by in game opiotn for free or for minimal cost/ tax], so you can buy sp from char bazar and give it to you char, and sell yours sp, becouse adding new soure of sp, will destroy eve character/skill points market economy, becouse you not need any more char bazar to get more sp, and make that only way to get sp to specific char is not from char bazar, wich all this might as result be reducion of accounts by some ppl
skill point reamap will have impact at char transfer tax, becouse you not need to pay tax for selling your sp and buying new one to change you sp composition, wich also results smaller isk sink and smaller paymens from it, wich is not possible form dev perspevtive, it would be logic for price of two char transfer tax but in this whey you make smaller isk sink becouse reducting char movement at market
only case for buying sp is for low sp chars by aurum or something like that becouse plex is little to big when you need only small amout of sp, to max numer of sp not above (2-4m ?), becouse buying low sp char from bazar is rediculus when tax for char transfer is twice as char value or is the same or almoust the same, and you need only 1,2,7, or 30 days sp training for scout, alt, or you just start game, and you cant do anything, i reamember but this was long time ago when you create new char you can chose some skils depend form wich race/school you chose or something like that this was nice but, with remove restriction acecs to skills depend of rave/schools you chose, make schol choice only cosmetic choice, this cloud be nice for game
changing atributes by neural reamap, is change by thing thats is inside in game, is not imact game machanic from ouside, and dont have that big influence at char market like other changes, becouse moust people wich use reamap doing this with optimalized plan, so you only can make biger isk sink by alow for it by tax/item (atribute reamp booster or something like that) i think, wich is good for eve economy make biger isks sink, and give players biger flexibilyty for remaping plans, and give solution for ppl wich use reamps withou proper knowlage how to use it |
Asura Vajrarupa
Rust Jihad
44
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 06:11:55 -
[225] - Quote
SP from nothing but cash is broken. SP from another player training a character is ok. This is the situation as it is now. So why not have CCP keep the character bazaar and give people buying that SP the most value for the money, buy letting us grind up that bought character and apply the SP? CCP could even get wet on the deal by gating that reclaimed xp with a plex and/or aurum cost.
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
|
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1130
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 06:25:30 -
[226] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Soldarius wrote:PLEX for remaps? ok. Similar to skills for PLEX. Which is deff NO NO.
Not similar at all actually, since the time has already been invested in order to remap. If this were the case then PLEX shouldn't exist at all because it allows people who can play the game more frequently and earn the required isk the ability to train skills for free, compared to folks who don't have the time to PLEX accounts.
You can already buy any specified allocation of SP you want in the Character Bazaar, there should be no reason I can not accomplish the same thing on a character I already own and have invested the time and money into for current SP.
(not saying i support or don't support SP remapping...really I don't care I can do pretty much everything I care to do anyway.) |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
85
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 07:46:21 -
[227] - Quote
PLEX = time.
You are buying time not skill points. You might have PLEX'd your account but didn't train any skills for a reason. So it was only a game time without skill training involment.
And go buy skills directly for PLEX is different to the current system. Cause you may buy millions of sp and cba to be online.
And believe me it's not that easy to find a specific skills layout at char bazar cause people do train lot of crap at the beggining and those just like a bad legacy at most of the cases you've found there. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1033
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 09:51:11 -
[228] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:
It is Not every 6 weeks you see such a major shake ups.
Once a year re-map is fine. Especially if CCP would remove atributes imps.
Please explain how should focused SC pilot adopt?
The focused SC pilot should adapt by training skills for other ships too since to be effective as an SC pilot you must also have trained a shedload of other skills to get to that point.
People often like to say the throwaway comment 'Adapt or die' in the forums but in the case of SP purchase/remaps it seems to be a case of 'Adapt or die...except when I want skill x, y, and z and then I'd like them right now please because I can afford to throw PLEX/$ at it and want that shiny new FotM ship NOW!'... |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
85
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 09:59:05 -
[229] - Quote
Correct, a lot of temporary individuals want to act that fast way.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1033
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 10:13:01 -
[230] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Correct, a lot of temporary individuals want to act that fast way.
And they would get bored after a short while and want/demand another remap for a different set of skills. Meanwhile those who play the game long term would suffer the consequences. |
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Memphis Baas
264
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 10:26:15 -
[231] - Quote
SP remap would simplify CCP's patch process too.
Currently they're overhauling stations, not a big deal, just have to seed the skills early so we have time to train them, so that alliance leadership has the skills to replace those outposts within the deadline periods.
For the capital ship revamp, though, their reimbursement process is going to be a nightmare. SP remap would allow CCP to say "welp, capitals are removed from the game, and that's it, you guys remap your skills however you want."
Because, for all the talk about adapting, time, and investment, we sure demand our reimbursements. Imagine if they had done things differently when they split destroyers and battlecruisers into the 4 racial lines.
EDIT: As far as rich people throwing money left and right, that's how the world works. Actually people who got rich through their own hard work have a tendency to not spend a lot; it's their kids who grew up with the wealth that may. In any case, I considered funding a supercapital through PLEX now that I have the skills, but it adds up a significant dollar sum. 1 plex is ok here and there, 10 plex is $200, not gonna spend that in one shot on pixels. |
Memphis Baas
264
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 11:23:06 -
[232] - Quote
Also, if you're worried about the "rich kids" exploiting the system, for example, by remapping mining to get the ore, refining to get the minerals, then remapping industry to make the ships, then PVP for using the ships, and then remapping capital ships for the evening CTA, all in the same 4 hour play period, CCP can simply implement a SP queue:
We pay the plex to put the points from the skills into the SP pool, and then we get 2700 sp / hr from having a subscription, and the SP pool is consumed at another 2700 sp / hr, thereby giving you double training speed until the SP's are consumed. Thus it takes a long time to "remap" the skills.
I'd expect it to be very cheap if they do that, though. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1035
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 12:00:18 -
[233] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Also, if you're worried about the "rich kids" exploiting the system, for example, by remapping mining to get the ore, refining to get the minerals, then remapping industry to make the ships, then PVP for using the ships, and then remapping capital ships for the evening CTA, all in the same 4 hour play period, CCP can simply implement a SP queue:
We pay the plex to put the points from the skills into the SP pool, and then we get 2700 sp / hr from having a subscription, and the SP pool is consumed at another 2700 sp / hr, thereby giving you double training speed until the SP's are consumed. Thus it takes a long time to "remap" the skills.
I'd expect it to be very cheap if they do that, though.
I'm not worried about the 'rich kids' under the current system as they can only use their money to get one extra attribute points worth of training speed by using +5's instead of the +4's most can easily afford. Any other system that allows for the remappig of a useful amount of SP is immediately open for abuse by those that can more afford it.
I would also not want anything else tied to PLEX as it would simply increase inflation of the PLEX price even more rapidly than we currently have.
Changes in the skill point system to allow any form of buying/remap would also be a classic 'slippery slope' situation where people would say 'but you gave us x points remapped for y ISK, why can't we have z points remapped instead because *reasons*?'
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Shaklu
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2015.03.28 11:50:02 -
[234] - Quote
The fact that so many threads are created so often obviously means people are begging for it.. but at the same time it is nice to know that you took the time to train every skill you have.
That being said starting fresh in EVE is outrageously hard, even for more experienced players, because there's a cliff of skillpoints to climb.
Perhaps allowing purchasing of SP with Plex should be considered, but the more SP you have, the less you gain for each use. This way you couldn't buy yourself to the top, but you would be able to buy yourself to the middle. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1037
|
Posted - 2015.03.28 14:08:45 -
[235] - Quote
Shaklu wrote:The fact that so many threads are created so often obviously means people are begging for it.. but at the same time it is nice to know that you took the time to train every skill you have.
How can you tell that it isn't the same people using alts and asking again and again?
Shaklu wrote: That being said starting fresh in EVE is outrageously hard, even for more experienced players, because there's a cliff of skillpoints to climb.
That's an NPE issue, not an issue with the skill system. pPersonally I never had an issue with the entire system.
Shaklu wrote: Perhaps allowing purchasing of SP with Plex should be considered, but the more SP you have, the less you gain for each use. This way you couldn't buy yourself to the top, but you would be able to buy yourself to the middle.
That would give rich players a means to create pretty much instant alts in any lower to middle tier ship. Also how would you measure it? Total SP? To fly an ishtar effectively needs both cruiser skills and drone skills training, other HACS need hull + guns or hull + missiles. Do they all have the same SP requirements to fly fully effectively? What about when hulls get nerfed, how does the cutoff level work then?
On top of these complications I would point out again that using PLEX for anything else like thisa will only lead to PLEX inflation and would then favour even more the richer players. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
419
|
Posted - 2015.03.28 15:13:55 -
[236] - Quote
Because I can, I'll go through the list.
- [New Player Experience] - Idea/Suggestion: One-time Skillpoint Remaps?
Honestly, remapping for new players sucks. Nuetral mapping for 2-3 months while you grab some basics is great, but by then they realize how many skills they trained that they don't want or need, and how much time they've wasted without implants or mapping. In general it's kind of a crappy deal for new players. Eliminating attributes or reducing the advantage would go a long way, but there should be some benefit for specialization... so maybe shrink the spread? Just my thoughts.
- Use PLEX for SP boost
**** no. Lets stay away from pay to win ponzi schemes guys. You can already buy characters, so lets just put this one away.
- Neural Remapping Improvements
Not sure about this, I like the idea of minimizing the impact of remaps. I don't mind 'pay to remap' options, since it's not directly an SP Boost (above). Maybe locking people into 3 month instead of a year long cycle, especially since ccp is shortening their cycles, it'll give people time to adjust to game changes. Then it'd be a little more reasonable?
- Remapping and implants alternative
Not really sure here, maybe if you could get a 10 or 20% boost to one training category? Like Gunnery, with the ability to switch focus every month or so. It may reduce complexity and free up implants as a practical bonus only deal?
- attributes / implants - some ideas
We could use some more bonuses from sets, hull, scan res, mining yield, more sets - or being able to blend the ability from sets and still bonus them with an omega.
- Activities effect training time..
I like the system how it is, If leaving my computer logged in and having me sit in my pos or at a station all day improves my training... You'll just incentivize unproductive or ****** game play. If mining affects mining train time? Not a huge fan - don't cave to all the other games, the training system here is unique and worth while.
- PLEX for Bonus Neural Remaps?
Yeah, I have no issues there as long as we're not applying direct bonuses to sp I don't really care.
- NEW Implant Idea
Think we covered that above...
- Skill Point Flexibility
Don't really care, I liked having the free 50k skill points when the servers where down, but as far as untraining and re-applying - no real opinion.
- Un-training skills
Yes, but I think people should lose 10 to 50% of the SP there, so that it has some kind of consequence. Otherwise I'll just shift my SP for the next broken ship instead of working towards a balanced training plan.
- Lost Training Time
Should remain lost, we've got a 50 skill long skill queue...
- Remove training bonus implants
Neutral, it has pluses and minuses. It would encourage pvp in some regards and possibly remove some risk aversion, but there are some interesting thoughts behind training clones...
- More skills
...For new activities sure, but I don't think we need redundant skills that add additional bonuses to say armor/shield as is.
- Attributes
Thoughts were above.
I think the biggest issues are the new player experience and the fact that a year long train time is a lot of commitment. I think if you could reduce the impact of mapping by around 50% and reduce the remapping time to 3 months, you'd get a lot more flexibility out of the system - and it'd be a lot more dynamic.
As it stands now, you can't really remap for drones because there isn't a year of training there and there aren't any other skills with those attributes. If you were only committed to a 3 month train, you could hop in grab some core skills and hop out when you wanted to move on. |
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
7281
|
Posted - 2015.03.29 11:13:26 -
[237] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Oh damn... Please no PLEX/ISK for skillpoints. 1 extra remap per year for a PLEX would be ok, buying skillpoints would ruin EVE on the long run.
You really don't want to do this.
Pay to win comes to mind. agreed, we don't need 1 day old characters flying titans.
Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
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Ra'Shyne Viper
Dissident Aggressors
94
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 06:40:05 -
[238] - Quote
I don't want too buy SP I just want the SP I sunk into useless skills I don't use anymore and never plan too (eg mining mining ships etc) I was a new to at one time and sunk a lot of sp/time into stuff I found ultimately I wasn't interested in anymore
DUST 514 player
Ingame name: Vin Vicious
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Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
30
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 17:04:19 -
[239] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Wow you guys really are suckers for punishment. It is of course, a big NO from me. So far, no one has shown any good reasons why this is needed and what it fixes.
I tend to agree...just train all skills to 5!! F^@K it, it's only 10 plus years |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
157
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:16:45 -
[240] - Quote
If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training.
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Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
71
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:45:34 -
[241] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training.
And why exactly would there be a need for penaltys if its equal to all? Skillpoints are already trained, and time waited, aint that penalty enough?
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
157
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Posted - 2015.04.01 18:48:15 -
[242] - Quote
Wulfy Johnson wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training. And why exactly would there be a need for penaltys if its equal to all? Skillpoints are already trained, and time waited, aint that penalty enough?
Not sure I understand what you mean. What is the penalty?
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SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
167
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 20:05:07 -
[243] - Quote
I just wish they would get rid of learning implants and trash the attribute system.
Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
88
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 22:10:02 -
[244] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training.
Wow Wow please don't judge that heavy.
Sound's more like punishment vs penalties. Loosing SP's due to remap? It's a vad joke mate. I have already paid for that when bought skill books and PLEX. It's my property now. |
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
71
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 01:11:25 -
[245] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Wulfy Johnson wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training. And why exactly would there be a need for penaltys if its equal to all? Skillpoints are already trained, and time waited, aint that penalty enough? Not sure I understand what you mean. What is the penalty?
In your own words, "it would need a gigantic penalty". |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
158
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 01:23:48 -
[246] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training. Wow Wow please don't judge that heavy. Sound's more like punishment vs penalties. Loosing SP's due to remap? It's a vad joke mate. I have already paid for that when bought skill books and PLEX. It's my property now.
Not an attribute remap. A skill remap as the OP is asking about. i.e. let's say you're a heavily invested miner now with 50m sp and you want to become an OGB for some reason.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
88
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 01:41:14 -
[247] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training. Wow Wow please don't judge that heavy. Sound's more like punishment vs penalties. Loosing SP's due to remap? It's a vad joke mate. I have already paid for that when bought skill books and PLEX. It's my property now. Not an attribute remap. A skill remap as the OP is asking about. i.e. let's say you're a heavily invested miner now with 50m sp and you want to become an OGB for some reason.
I was not talking about atributes. So why should i lose out of my 50m sp? Any solid reason? |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
34089
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 10:43:47 -
[248] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training. Wow Wow please don't judge that heavy. Sound's more like punishment vs penalties. Loosing SP's due to remap? It's a vad joke mate. I have already paid for that when bought skill books and PLEX. It's my property now. Not an attribute remap. A skill remap as the OP is asking about. i.e. let's say you're a heavily invested miner now with 50m sp and you want to become an OGB for some reason. that is IMO around borderline reasonable, however it might not make any sense that you can unlearn everything you know and then learning something completely new and know about that new thing just as much as you knew about the old thing that you magically forgot.
knowledge just doesn't go away like that. would it make sense to you that you can un-learn skills like, let's say, all Missile skills and then learn industrial skills as if you trained them for as long instead? that would be almost like rewriting your history. it's not possible and doesn't make any sense.
I'm in favour of PLEX for attribute remap. that's about as much as I can accept in this regard.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! Join the fight!
I am a cat.
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
158
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Posted - 2015.04.02 13:05:25 -
[249] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training. Wow Wow please don't judge that heavy. Sound's more like punishment vs penalties. Loosing SP's due to remap? It's a vad joke mate. I have already paid for that when bought skill books and PLEX. It's my property now. Not an attribute remap. A skill remap as the OP is asking about. i.e. let's say you're a heavily invested miner now with 50m sp and you want to become an OGB for some reason. I was not talking about atributes. So why should i lose out of my 50m sp? Any solid reason?
There really is no reason, but there's no reason to let everyone reskill constantly either. It would absolutely break the game if implemented without limits or downsides.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
89
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 13:34:03 -
[250] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:If something like this ever existed it would need a gigantic penalty that prevented abuse. For instance you do a full SP remap, you permanently lose 20% of your SP. So if you remap a 10m SP character it becomes a 8m SP char. If you do it again, it's a 6.4m character.
New players could essentially do it inconsequentially, but min maxers could probably only do it once or twice before throwing away too many months or years of training. Wow Wow please don't judge that heavy. Sound's more like punishment vs penalties. Loosing SP's due to remap? It's a vad joke mate. I have already paid for that when bought skill books and PLEX. It's my property now. Not an attribute remap. A skill remap as the OP is asking about. i.e. let's say you're a heavily invested miner now with 50m sp and you want to become an OGB for some reason. I was not talking about atributes. So why should i lose out of my 50m sp? Any solid reason? There really is no reason, but there's no reason to let everyone reskill constantly either. It would absolutely break the game if implemented without limits or downsides.
Please explain. |
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
159
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 13:54:33 -
[251] - Quote
I have enough SP to fly an Ishtar. But I didn't train into one. Now imagine everyone with the SP to fly whatever the flavor of the month ship was just respecced into it every balance patch. Or you shoot a miner, he docks up and respecs into perfect T3 skills and kills you, then respecs back into mining directly after. It sounds likeimpulse chaos.
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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
393
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 14:04:36 -
[252] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:I have enough SP to fly an Ishtar. But I didn't train into one. Now imagine everyone with the SP to fly whatever the flavor of the month ship was just respecced into it every balance patch. Anything that encourages CCP to get their balancing right is a good thing, correct?
Chance Ravinne wrote: Or you shoot a miner, he docks up and respecs into perfect T3 skills and kills you, then respecs back into mining directly after. It sounds like impulse chaos. You shot a miner so obviously you want a fight. So the miner brought you one. Sounds like "working as intended" to me.
MDD
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Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4280
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 14:06:31 -
[253] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:I have enough SP to fly an Ishtar. But I didn't train into one. Now imagine everyone with the SP to fly whatever the flavor of the month ship was just respecced into it every balance patch. Or you shoot a miner, he docks up and respecs into perfect T3 skills and kills you, then respecs back into mining directly after. It sounds likeimpulse chaos. Except you're forgetting the 10-50% SP loss each time.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
71
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 15:11:55 -
[254] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:I have enough SP to fly an Ishtar. But I didn't train into one. Now imagine everyone with the SP to fly whatever the flavor of the month ship was just respecced into it every balance patch. Or you shoot a miner, he docks up and respecs into perfect T3 skills and kills you, then respecs back into mining directly after. It sounds likeimpulse chaos.
Thats why you allow it once a year or two, and no it wont break the game..
Yes we will see more focused pilots for sale, and more exchange of usefull characters, but that aint bad eighter for the value of characters or the search for what you need from month to month on the basar.
But it will also let people be less frustrated from time to time.. This game has an extreme time investment to allow players to fly new things, and therefore it will help against player burnout during metachanges and balancepasses.
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DaReaper
Net 7
1887
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 15:39:03 -
[255] - Quote
Buying skills points is a bad idea, and wll most likly cause another jita riot.
Skill remapping, depending on what they do with attributes, is not a bad idea. I'd even be ok if they sld dust like boosters, and removed attributes. But outright buying sp's is a no
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1927
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 19:13:02 -
[256] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:I have enough SP to fly an Ishtar. But I didn't train into one. Now imagine everyone with the SP to fly whatever the flavor of the month ship was just respecced into it every balance patch. Or you shoot a miner, he docks up and respecs into perfect T3 skills and kills you, then respecs back into mining directly after. It sounds likeimpulse chaos. Base it on the remap system so it is not frequent and charge a couple of plex. Having the in game skills doesn't mean you will be able to properly fly a ship so I'm not overly concerned about a miner instantly turning into a pvp pro. But so what if they do?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
91
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 20:58:04 -
[257] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:I have enough SP to fly an Ishtar. But I didn't train into one. Now imagine everyone with the SP to fly whatever the flavor of the month ship was just respecced into it every balance patch. Or you shoot a miner, he docks up and respecs into perfect T3 skills and kills you, then respecs back into mining directly after. It sounds likeimpulse chaos.
Unfortunatelly you didn't read all the thread and all those threads linked on the first page. The proposed SP remap is only available once a year, as well as you can't remap and you really don't need to touch your support skills like armor shield electronic engineering navigation etc. So basicaly ythe most common would be spaceship command gunnery/missile/drone and industry. So let's say you could only move 25?50? % of you skills from each category to another category. |
Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4285
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 21:34:54 -
[258] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Buying skills points is a bad idea, and wll most likly cause another jita riot. Changing the 'suitcase' icon for the damage control will probably cause a near-riot. Basically players are looking for an excuse to riot.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
119
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 21:46:06 -
[259] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:I have enough SP to fly an Ishtar. But I didn't train into one. Now imagine everyone with the SP to fly whatever the flavor of the month ship was just respecced into it every balance patch. Or you shoot a miner, he docks up and respecs into perfect T3 skills and kills you, then respecs back into mining directly after. It sounds likeimpulse chaos.
Sounds like Battlefield 3.
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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VulpusFox
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 00:48:31 -
[260] - Quote
Massive thread, admittedly too lazy to read it all.
But under the notion "once you can fly it you will always be able fly it"
If I train into a capital, could I then theoretically just pay to reallocate the requirement skills that have nothing to do with actually flying the cap(but are required to get to that point) and reallocate them to the cap support skills needed to fly it well?
Kind of like skill leapfrog, which would end up possibly dramatically shortening cap and super cap pilots times.
Even if I could only allocate a percentage of the support skills, it still seems counter to the point of having to initially train those skills in the first place
Or even just buying generic characters and paying an extra fee to fine tune a newly purchased alt to your liking.
Too much immediate gratification, and just feels bad to cater to people that just want it "now"
you make decisions in the game, you should have to live with those decisions to an extent. You buy the wrong item on market, well your stuck with some loss, you train the wrong skills, you should be stuck with some loss as well. Whether it be the time wasted, or percentage loss from reallocating them at least. |
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
91
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 01:19:48 -
[261] - Quote
VulpusFox wrote:Massive thread, admittedly too lazy to read it all.
But under the notion "once you can fly it you will always be able fly it"
If I train into a capital, could I then theoretically just pay to reallocate the requirement skills that have nothing to do with actually flying the cap(but are required to get to that point) and reallocate them to the cap support skills needed to fly it well?
Kind of like skill leapfrog, which would end up possibly dramatically shortening cap and super cap pilots times.
Even if I could only allocate a percentage of the support skills, it still seems counter to the point of having to initially train those skills in the first place
Or even just buying generic characters and paying an extra fee to fine tune a newly purchased alt to your liking.
Too much immediate gratification, and just feels bad to cater to people that just want it "now"
you make decisions in the game, you should have to live with those decisions to an extent. You buy the wrong item on market, well your stuck with some loss, you train the wrong skills, you should be stuck with some loss as well. Whether it be the time wasted, or percentage loss from reallocating them at least.
It's a game not the real life where you making mistakes and paying full for that. Game it's fun in the first place. Not the hard work which most of us have IRL.
So having limited opportunity to swap some skills which you already have is an option most of us would be pleased to have for those who against i would reccomend to pass this thread over and don't bother about it.
I got my main for years and when i started playing i was like - "hell i want everything immediatelly". So i have injected bunch of skill books. So it that considered as a mistake? How should i know and be precaution obout last 3 years major changes? Pfff.
I do have like ~20m SP out of my total 125m SP which now i consider as a negative ballance, so my concern is obvious. |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
37
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 01:45:36 -
[262] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:It's a game not the real life where you making mistakes and paying full for that. Game it's fun in the first place. Not the hard work which most of us have IRL.
So having limited opportunity to swap some skills which you already have is an option most of us would be pleased to have for those who against i would reccomend to pass this thread over and don't bother about it.
I got my main for years and when i started playing i was like - "hell i want everything immediatelly". So i have injected bunch of skill books. So it that considered as a mistake? How should i know and be precaution obout last 3 years major changes? Pfff.
I do have like ~20m SP out of my total 125m SP which now i consider as a negative ballance, so my concern is obvious.
Did you seriously just tell people who were against this to ignore the matter altogether?
This is a game of consequence. Decisions made today effect tomorrow either with the skills you train or the actions you make, there is no reset for when you make a mistake. If I take a super out today and take a few gate without scouting I don't get to say "oops" when I get caught and lose it. I don't get my slave clone back either, what a shame. I lose it that's not very fun, I want a do over.
People are paying CCP for access to their servers each month. A smart choice would be to train a character during that time, but you are under no requirement to do so. I have no idea how many months of time I wasted forgetting to start a skill back in the days before skill queues even existed. And in those days you never head anyone crying for that time back. Now that we have near infinite skill queues you hear people now asking for the ability to remap??? RIDICULOUS! Give a player an inch they'll take a mile.
FYI - This character has fighter bombers 4 and caldari dread, cit torps, and cit cruise all 5. Fighters because they came out during a break I was taking from EVE. I trained it thinking they were going to be a carrier's anti-cap drone. We'll I was right, but I was wrong about them being to normal carriers. Caldari dread because I liked the Phoenix and I figured a rebalance was going to occur letting them apply damage better, in this I was dead wrong. As it stands I can look at this as wasted training, but I accept it knowing things change. Wasted skills today doesn't mean I wouldn't want them in the future either. You should look into adapting a like mentality. And take EVE for what it is, a game. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
91
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 02:42:18 -
[263] - Quote
You did hear me but you didn't listen.
What's wrong with having an opportunity once a year move certain ammount of SP from one category to another category?
Hell, make once in a two year period i don't care. Or either limit it by 2.5m Sp per remap + isk or PLEX.
I don't see anything wrong with that. You should remember that unlocated skill point time after atributes skill books removal.
And please don't tell me you still have them unlocated. And please don't tell me it wasn't damn usefull.
To satisfy individuals like you i do even agree to the limitation of remapin SP applying into the most "heaviest" skills with rank over 10.
Should be happy now. |
Vulfen
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
174
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 11:36:03 -
[264] - Quote
I don't agree with buying SP however i do think that it is something we are leaning more and more towards as the gap between the best and a noob increases
Personally i think if there ever is an option to "Purchase SP" it should never be instant. It should be worked for.
I'm in favor of a new booster in the game, (like the ones you can get as a new player), that give a modest increase to your attributes. I would also say that it may be possible to have these built in game from gas mining like current booster production, but the blueprints are on the New Eden Store.
There should also be a risk to this the same as implants - you die the booster dies. Unlike what happens with the newbie boosters i believe they should hold this risk.
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John Ratcliffe
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
288
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 18:06:49 -
[265] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:Did you seriously just tell people who were against this to ignore the matter altogether?
This is a game of consequence. Decisions made today effect tomorrow either with the skills you train or the actions you make, there is no reset for when you make a mistake. If I take a super out today and take a few gate without scouting I don't get to say "oops" when I get caught and lose it. I don't get my slave clone back either, what a shame. I lose it that's not very fun, I want a do over.
People are paying CCP for access to their servers each month. A smart choice would be to train a character during that time, but you are under no requirement to do so. I have no idea how many months of time I wasted forgetting to start a skill back in the days before skill queues even existed. And in those days you never head anyone crying for that time back. Now that we have near infinite skill queues you hear people now asking for the ability to remap??? RIDICULOUS! Give a player an inch they'll take a mile.
Don't be a child. Just about every MMO that has ever been has offered a respec ability - EVE isn't so special it should be any different. If you don't want to use it, then don't, but I see no reason why CCP shouldn't implement this.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
759
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 18:42:17 -
[266] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:Did you seriously just tell people who were against this to ignore the matter altogether?
This is a game of consequence. Decisions made today effect tomorrow either with the skills you train or the actions you make, there is no reset for when you make a mistake. If I take a super out today and take a few gate without scouting I don't get to say "oops" when I get caught and lose it. I don't get my slave clone back either, what a shame. I lose it that's not very fun, I want a do over.
People are paying CCP for access to their servers each month. A smart choice would be to train a character during that time, but you are under no requirement to do so. I have no idea how many months of time I wasted forgetting to start a skill back in the days before skill queues even existed. And in those days you never head anyone crying for that time back. Now that we have near infinite skill queues you hear people now asking for the ability to remap??? RIDICULOUS! Give a player an inch they'll take a mile. Don't be a child. Just about every MMO that has ever been has offered a respec ability - EVE isn't so special it should be any different. If you don't want to use it, then don't, but I see no reason why CCP shouldn't implement this.
By that logic if just about every MMO offers Pay2Win items and instant gratification so should EvE.
What makes EvE worthwhile is that it is different.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1531
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 19:03:00 -
[267] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:You did hear me but you didn't listen.
What's wrong with having an opportunity once a year move certain ammount of SP from one category to another category?
Hell, make once in a two year period i don't care. Or either limit it by 2.5m Sp per remap + isk or PLEX.
I don't see anything wrong with that. You should remember that unlocated skill point time after atributes skill books removal.
And please don't tell me you still have them unlocated. And please don't tell me it wasn't damn usefull.
To satisfy individuals like you i do even agree to the limitation of remapin SP applying into the most "heaviest" skills with rank over 10.
Should be happy now.
Please see the top of my earlier post in this thread for an explanation as to why a blanket remapping of X% amount of SPs would break the existing attribute system. Unless X was absurdly low, everybody would just set their attributes to Intelligence and Memory, plug in +3s or +4s for them, and remap SPs into other fields every year. Bad mojo.
I think that the most that could be allowed in terms of remapping is in dropping one skill by one level and reallocating the reclaimed points (as outlined here). It's not much, but it would allow some flexibility in light of skill changes made by CCP (Anchoring V anyone?) and still keep attributes meaningful. The most you'd be able to re-allocate every remap is 3.5 million SPs, and that's only if you trained a racial Titan skill to V. Most folks would be limited to half that (Racial Battleship V).
And under no circumstances should remaps be available to purchase for ISK or PLEX. The attribute remap system we have now has worked just fine since the beginning, I can see any kind of skillpoint remapping working just fine the same way.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
71
|
Posted - 2015.04.04 02:15:44 -
[268] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:You did hear me but you didn't listen.
What's wrong with having an opportunity once a year move certain ammount of SP from one category to another category?
Hell, make once in a two year period i don't care. Or either limit it by 2.5m Sp per remap + isk or PLEX.
I don't see anything wrong with that. You should remember that unlocated skill point time after atributes skill books removal.
And please don't tell me you still have them unlocated. And please don't tell me it wasn't damn usefull.
To satisfy individuals like you i do even agree to the limitation of remapin SP applying into the most "heaviest" skills with rank over 10.
Should be happy now. Please see the top of my earlier post in this thread for an explanation as to why a blanket remapping of X% amount of SPs would break the existing attribute system. Unless X was absurdly low, everybody would just set their attributes to Intelligence and Memory, plug in +3s or +4s for them, and remap SPs into other fields every year. Bad mojo. I think that the most that could be allowed in terms of remapping is in dropping one skill by one level and reallocating the reclaimed points (as outlined here). It's not much, but it would allow some flexibility in light of skill changes made by CCP (Anchoring V anyone?) and still keep attributes meaningful. The most you'd be able to re-allocate every remap is 3.5 million SPs, and that's only if you trained a racial Titan skill to V. Most folks would be limited to half that (Racial Battleship V). And under no circumstances should remaps be available to purchase for ISK or PLEX. The attribute remap system we have now has worked just fine since the beginning, I can see any kind of skillpoint remapping working just fine the same way.
Attribute system might see a revamp which changes the land,, which in turn makes this tread a hot topic again
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
39
|
Posted - 2015.04.04 04:34:12 -
[269] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:You did hear me but you didn't listen.
What's wrong with having an opportunity once a year move certain ammount of SP from one category to another category?
Hell, make once in a two year period i don't care. Or either limit it by 2.5m Sp per remap + isk or PLEX.
I don't see anything wrong with that. You should remember that unlocated skill point time after atributes skill books removal.
And please don't tell me you still have them unlocated. And please don't tell me it wasn't damn usefull.
To satisfy individuals like you i do even agree to the limitation of remapin SP applying into the most "heaviest" skills with rank over 10.
Should be happy now.
I do remember, and if you pointed out we got those skill points back after the skills were removed. We did not chose to have those skills taken from us, and in return they gave us our skill points back. If CCP took skills away in the future they would do the same, because that is the right thing to do. But removing a skill is not the same as a skill becoming "undesirable" in a patch. You are owed nothing simply because you currently find a skill not worth having.
Who is to say some future patch will not be released that suddenly makes that skill worth having again. It's happened in the past, it can easily happen again. First skill that comes to mind is sentry drones. Once a upon a time nobody used them over medium/heavies, the game evolved, they got a massive buff and hello Ishtar, suddenly everyone uses them and ccp is scrambling to balance them.
I digress, I do not agree with any amount of remapping because that is opening a can of worms for future patches "improving" upon the system. I'd rather nip it in the bud now before we're further boiled like a frog.
John Ratcliffe wrote:Don't be a child. Just about every MMO that has ever been has offered a respec ability - EVE isn't so special it should be any different. If you don't want to use it, then don't, but I see no reason why CCP shouldn't implement this.
Nice that you start off by calling me a child, but I'll look past that.
You have your "respec" already in the form of remapping your attributes to increase the rate at which you can train skills. We didn't even used to have that, your attributes used to be locked in the second you chose your race and bloodline improved only by learning skills and implants. Now we have the current system which works just fine and has sped up training times exponentially. Everyone has been happy about this for years now, it was a good change and not instantly game breaking (time breaks all mmos as you run out of things to do/train).
I'll use a WoW example here since that seems to be up your alley. Your suggestion would be akin to a rogue changing his class to a hunter and trading his gear in to match his newly selected class since he already took the time to obtain that gear and level his rogue why should he have to grind that all again. He already took the time to obtain it so he feels it unfair to be expected to level and gear up again.
You see, the difference between remapping attributes and remapping your actual skill points is like night and day. That change would actually be game breaking as it exemplifies instant gratification more so than what is already available via the character bazaar. We already have our accepted form of credit card warriors with players buying plex and getting a character from the character bazaar. But now imagine, with a remap system any player can now also pay to perfect any character they currently own or buy. No more "wasted" skill points! You know, until the next patch hits and it's deemed "worthless" to have x skill.
---
The reason you don't see why CCP shouldn't implement this because you lack foresight into changes that would be brought about by such a change. It would be great for the short term, who wouldn't want to reclaim some of those poorly chosen skills from our past? But then what? What is left after your character is perfectly trained the way you want it? What will you train now? What will you strive to achieve next? I'll tell you this from my experience from other games which fully welcomed instant gratification mechanics. Their players (casuals and vets alike) ran out of things to strive for all the sooner and left. Much like what eve is experiencing now, but has the benefit of being able to shake things up by altering in game mechanics to give players new things to strive to obtain and destroy by patching in new ships, areas of space, and changing the very rules of engagement (sov, wars, etc). |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
94
|
Posted - 2015.04.04 04:48:07 -
[270] - Quote
May i ask you to link your eveboard, please. I would ask you a couple of questions then. |
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
39
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Posted - 2015.04.04 07:10:55 -
[271] - Quote
What is it you would like to know that would have any bearing on this discussion? The part where I took a mutli-year break for college? |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5163
|
Posted - 2015.04.04 16:13:16 -
[272] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
50
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Posted - 2015.04.05 05:41:04 -
[273] - Quote
Very simple way to fix all of this
No you should not be able to BUY the service, not for plex not for some ingame item.
Every month you get 1 skill.. that you can fully unlearn and that sp is transferred into the pool for you to put anywhere you want.
This skill remap, does not stack. You get 1 a month and if you don't use it then you lose it.. and the next month its replenished back to 1
This isn't overpowered because it allows the character market to be safe from people buying mining toons and then switching all the skills to pvp.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
96
|
Posted - 2015.04.05 06:21:19 -
[274] - Quote
This one skill you are suggesting is going to be some skill from a certain category or it would be any skill upon plaer choice? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1061
|
Posted - 2015.04.05 09:24:59 -
[275] - Quote
I 'll just say any way for this to be worth doing would require a reasonable amount of SP to be remapped and as soon as that is the case the system can then be abused.
Make it simply a nice to have once a year minimal sp remap and it isn't worth the effort to code and test it. Even this would be horrible as it would be accomodating those with OCD tendancies (which is actually very bad for them!) And would simply lead to alts becoming perfect niche pilots with rich players having a perfect clean frig alt, dessie alt, cruiser alt etc etc etc. A horrible idea, its the diffrences that make them characters rather than just a destroyer pilot account etc.
If someone wants to pilot ship class x, y or z more rapidly they should use the character bazaar (which personally I think is a necessary evil) and put up with the consequence of unwanted skills and dubious background. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
96
|
Posted - 2015.04.05 10:34:39 -
[276] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I 'll just say any way for this to be worth doing would require a reasonable amount of SP to be remapped and as soon as that is the case the system can then be abused.
Make it simply a nice to have once a year minimal sp remap and it isn't worth the effort to code and test it. Even this would be horrible as it would be accomodating those with OCD tendancies (which is actually very bad for them!) And would simply lead to alts becoming perfect niche pilots with rich players having a perfect clean frig alt, dessie alt, cruiser alt etc etc etc. A horrible idea, its the diffrences that make them characters rather than just a destroyer pilot account etc.
If someone wants to pilot ship class x, y or z more rapidly they should use the character bazaar (which personally I think is a necessary evil) and put up with the consequence of unwanted skills and dubious background.
Do you consider this as meanace or kind of threat, i mean your words of niche focused alts? |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
617
|
Posted - 2015.04.05 14:50:24 -
[277] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:I don't agree with buying SP however i do think that it is something we are leaning more and more towards as the gap between the best and a noob increases..
This is a percieved gap, not an actual one. When I started with 50k skillpoints I got rolled over just three months later - everyone else would start with 800k and I just reached 100k.
Now nine years later and because of choices I made, I look at a quite different picture but I get where this 'need' comes from, I thought so myself in the first years.
To someone who just started today my skillsheet would look more than upsetting but keep in mind that I prepared nine years to be here today.
This 'gap' would be like telling your six year old son that he cannot drive a car just yet - even though you want to. He does have to 'grow' up a little and wait until you become 15 or 16 years of age.
Think about your EVE character as a child, going through puperty again, with all the changes that come with it, interests change, tastes change, other role models emerge and so on. Depreiving yourself of that process would take too much away, wouldn't you agree?
I pretty much wanted to fly a titan like three hours after the tutorial and looked at the market to find one - none available So I looked at the required skillbook only to find out that the book costs five billion isk - looking at my wallet which had a value of 35k isk in it wasn't encouraging at all.
This specialization gap may be there but even a noob can be a veteran in a week. Let's say that nooby trains Gallente Frigate to the magic level V - it will take her or him four or five days and that's it nothing more and nothing less.
Congratulation Miss or Mister nooby, you now have joined the club of Gallente Frigate veterans alike.
If you just throw isk at a problem you create you won't solve it, you will just have thrown a lot of cash at it.
Think about it.
Why wouldn't highschools just hand out drivers licenses at spring brake in 10th grade? You only want to drive a car anyway, so why would you want to waste all the time it takes to learn how to operate a car?
signature
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
40
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Posted - 2015.04.05 18:02:37 -
[278] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:This one skill you are suggesting is going to be some skill from a certain category or it would be any skill upon plaer choice?
Me and him are in the same corp and were talking about this last night. He basically wants 1 level of 1 skill per month, not a whole skill like he makes it sound in the post.
His reasoning tho is rather funny to me. It's because he trained Doomsday Operation level 5 and wants it back lol
But unfortunately what he's missing, as well as a lot of people, is this post is effectively CCP asking us if we're okay with them charging us plex for a new remapping service. Not what kind of free remapping service do we want/don't want. Which the vast majority have given a flat "no" to, including yourself I believe to some extent. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1061
|
Posted - 2015.04.05 21:54:31 -
[279] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I 'll just say any way for this to be worth doing would require a reasonable amount of SP to be remapped and as soon as that is the case the system can then be abused.
Make it simply a nice to have once a year minimal sp remap and it isn't worth the effort to code and test it. Even this would be horrible as it would be accomodating those with OCD tendancies (which is actually very bad for them!) And would simply lead to alts becoming perfect niche pilots with rich players having a perfect clean frig alt, dessie alt, cruiser alt etc etc etc. A horrible idea, its the diffrences that make them characters rather than just a destroyer pilot account etc.
If someone wants to pilot ship class x, y or z more rapidly they should use the character bazaar (which personally I think is a necessary evil) and put up with the consequence of unwanted skills and dubious background. Do you consider this as meanace or kind of threat, i mean your words of niche focused alts?
Warning:drunk posting ahead, Gallente sensibilities kicked in and polish vodka spelling is in full effect make sense of it as you will...
Niche focused alts are fine if that is how they were trained. The ability to turn any and every character into a perfect hull alt at will for plex would be horrible to me. A character is exactly that, unique, yours, a conglomerate of your experience, your learning, your time in EvE. To be able to erase past errors and create 'perfect'characters is entirely counter to 'EvE has consequences'. If you allow players to mitigate or entirely remove those consequences you remove the heart of EvE.
On a pure gameplay point how dull would it be if rich players could field any given choice of perfect character for any given hull? Because that is what you would have within whatever timescale you choose to constrain such an idea with. If players want a soulless game where any player can choose to fly any ship perfectly then petition for World of Spaceships but plaese don't try to turn EvE into such an abhoration. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2015.04.05 23:39:48 -
[280] - Quote
But But this is what already happening for quite long time now. People do buy focused toons from char bazar, so what's the difference? |
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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
40
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 01:39:12 -
[281] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:But But this is what already happening for quite long time now. People do buy focused toons from char bazar, so what's the difference? The differences are: 1) Each is a separate character they had to go out and obtain. They didn't just keep switching the same toon around to meet their changing needs. 2) Somebody had to take the time to train it "perfectly" or they had to make due with what they were able to find for sale.
Why do you want to be perfect so bad, right now, without putting forth the time and effort to correct those mistakes like everyone else has done for over a decade now? But instead try to erase those past mistakes to quickly make up for shortfalls today. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 01:53:06 -
[282] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:But But this is what already happening for quite long time now. People do buy focused toons from char bazar, so what's the difference? The differences are: 1) Each is a separate character they had to go out and obtain. They didn't just keep switching the same toon around to meet their changing needs. 2) Somebody had to take the time to train it "perfectly" or they had to make due with what they were able to find for sale. Why do you want to be perfect so bad, right now, without putting forth the time and effort to correct those mistakes like everyone else has done for over a decade now? But instead try to erase those past mistakes to quickly make up for shortfalls today.
i do honestly don't understand what do you caled mistakes and errors. my exhumers at lvl 5? i've done with mining, done deal, do you hear me? full stop. so i heave some SP i'd like to use at different area. ie Torpedoes. I do have it at lvl4 but i might simply move them to lvl5 and add torp specialization to lvl3 if i have enough SP. So i don't buy any extra SP. I did spend time on study those exhumer to lvl5. So why should i sell my toon just simply by another one but with perfect torps? |
Piter Bakunin
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 02:10:41 -
[283] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Nasar Vyron wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:But But this is what already happening for quite long time now. People do buy focused toons from char bazar, so what's the difference? The differences are: 1) Each is a separate character they had to go out and obtain. They didn't just keep switching the same toon around to meet their changing needs. 2) Somebody had to take the time to train it "perfectly" or they had to make due with what they were able to find for sale. Why do you want to be perfect so bad, right now, without putting forth the time and effort to correct those mistakes like everyone else has done for over a decade now? But instead try to erase those past mistakes to quickly make up for shortfalls today. i do honestly don't understand what do you caled mistakes and errors. my exhumers at lvl 5? i've done with mining, done deal, do you hear me? full stop. so i heave some SP i'd like to use at different area. ie Torpedoes. I do have it at lvl4 but i might simply move them to lvl5 and add torp specialization to lvl3 if i have enough SP. So i don't buy any extra SP. I did spend time on study those exhumer to lvl5. So why should i sell my toon just simply by another one but with perfect torps?
In what way are those points you invested into Exhumers preventing you from learning Torpedo Skills now? At the time you profited from having Exhumers 5 so those points were not wasted, that you are not using them now is irrelevant.
Given the removal of Clone Grades there is less reason than ever to allow remapping, as you are not punished by increasing clone costs for increased skillpoints.
I have seen many threads on this idea over the years and every reason for has boiled down to nothing more than "I want it", which in my opinion is far from a compelling argument |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 03:11:13 -
[284] - Quote
"i want it" one of the most powerfull force here. that's why people go look for a focused toons at market. And the fact i'm not using my exhumers skills is 100% relevant. |
Piter Bakunin
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 03:36:20 -
[285] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:"i want it" one of the most powerfull force here. that's why people go look for a focused toons at market. And the fact i'm not using my exhumers skills is 100% relevant.
You fail to answer the question, in what way does Exhumers 5 prevent you from learning Torpedo Specialisation? You also failed to address that you profited from having Exhumers 5.
I didn't deny that "I want it" is a powerful force, I do deny that it constitutes a reason to fundamentally alter and invalidate the whole Skill Training system. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 03:55:30 -
[286] - Quote
The answers are obviuos should i type these words to satisfy you?
The whole idea is to give players a tool which gives you sort of effective and efficient way to manage your skill points. Nothing else.
So please spend some time and carefuly read not only the last two pages of this thread. |
Piter Bakunin
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 04:47:05 -
[287] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:The answers are obviuos should i type these words to satisfy you?
The whole idea is to give players a tool which gives you sort of effective and efficient way to manage your skill points. Nothing else.
So please spend some time and carefuly read not only the last two pages of this thread.
Again you beg the question.
You are able to learn any skill in the game, since the Clone changes you are no longer penalised for growing your skill base. Skills you have learned in the past do no harm, and have in most cases benefitted you, whether you use them now or not. Should you be too impatient to learn a new skillset on your current character the Character Bazaar exists to exchange PLEX for a character more to your liking.
Skill remaps are a solution in search of a problem, they dilute the variation of characters in favour of a FOTM blandness. They destroy the rewards of Specialisation by enabling anyone to specialise for anything, at will, instantly. They also favour older and wealthier players vastly over new players. Like all others before you your argument is I want it because I want it.
"Effective and Efficient" is nothing more than code for I want it, and I want it now, and next month, if I want something else, then I am entitled to have it, because I want it.
You have demonstrated no need for this service, it offers no value other than to pander to the Instant Gratification and FOTM Chaser crowd, neither of which are in need of pandering to. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 05:05:25 -
[288] - Quote
Why so serious ? How to continue dialog when opponent don't even bother to wear my shoes? Your words about char bazar again and again i have heard them many times before but this is exactly same what is remap is - today you have perfect miner next day you are the happy owner of golem pilot. So what's the different instead of buying someones toons make your own by usung your own bank of SP's.
I see you on the other side of this subject so stay where you are and i will keep push through my idea. |
Piter Bakunin
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 05:44:38 -
[289] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Why so serious ? How to continue dialog when opponent don't even bother to wear my shoes? Your words about char bazar again and again i have heard them many times before but this is exactly same what is remap is - today you have perfect miner next day you are the happy owner of golem pilot. So what's the different instead of buying someones toons make your own by usung your own bank of SP's.
I see you on the other side of this subject so stay where you are and i will keep push through my idea.
Not serious at all, this is called debate, where you defend your idea from criticism. You don't get to tell me to shut up and let you push a position that I believe is detrimental to the game because you don't want to defend that position.
Incidentally, the definition of dialogue isn't you talk and everyone agrees with you.
There is every difference in the world between the Character Bazaar and Skill remaps, though the end result may look the same to you.
A Character bought on the Character Bazaar has been trained under the same ruleset as every other character in the game. It is a seperate entity to your current character, when you buy it there remain 2 characters with different skillsets. To use your example, both your Perfect Miner and Perfect Golem Pilot still exist after the transaction.
Under Skill Respecs, 1 character potentially has every skillset. A Perfect Miner one day, a Perfect Golem pilot the next, a Stealth Bomber FW pilot the day after, etcetera.
I get that you feel that you wasted your time training Exhumers, I just don't share that opinion. You used those skills, you profited from those skills, therefore they were not wasted.
I currently have close to 50million Skillpoints, of which I use maybe 20million on an everyday basis. I am currently training toward Recons and then Black Ops, toward which 30miilion unused Skillpoints would go a long way. I stand to benefit a lot more from a Skill Respec than a 6month old character, yet I still oppose them.
Because those 30million or so Skillpoints that I don't use are not useless to me, I can get into any Frigate or Destroyer in the game and be confident that while my personal skills may not be up to the task, my character skills are.
That includes Mining Frigates by the way, and the only mining I have ever done was for the Tutorials.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 06:31:31 -
[290] - Quote
The problem is i do compare char bazar and suggested skill remap and found them identical. Cause in the end you have what you want to have. You don't accept this statement. And i don't see any reason to continue telling this to you over and over again cause i would hear same critiscims as before.
And i don't wan to have and perfect miner and perfect golem pilots. And it doesn't mean that i should go as everyone do and buy one from market and sell the other one instead. And i want to have an option to turn my guy toon from miner to something else and i'm ready to pay for that service a number of isk to ccp and accept sort of limitations and restrictions from ccp. Cause simply i don't want to trade my lovely character's uniqness and experience for someone else stuff. |
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Piter Bakunin
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 06:38:19 -
[291] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:The problem is i do compare char bazar and suggested skill remap and found them identical. Cause in the end you have what you want to have. You don't accept this statement. And i don't see any reason to continue telling this to you over and over again cause i would hear same critiscims as before.
And i don't wan to have and perfect miner and perfect golem pilots. And it doesn't mean that i should go as everyone do and buy one from market and sell the other one instead. And i want to have an option to turn my guy toon from miner to something else and i'm ready to pay for that service a number of isk to ccp and accept sort of limitations and restrictions from ccp. Cause simply i don't want to trade my lovely character's uniqness and experience for someone else stuff.
1 Character is not identical to 2 characters, no matter how much you want it to be.
As far as I can see, you are advocating not only trading your lovely characters uniqness(sic) and experience by arguing for remaps, but throwing them out altogether.
You would go from being "Tiddle Jr, former Miner turned Golem Pilot" to "Identical Perfect Golem Pilot #15423, until next week when I get bored" |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1063
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 08:48:56 -
[292] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:The problem is i do compare char bazar and suggested skill remap and found them identical. Cause in the end you have what you want to have. You don't accept this statement. And i don't see any reason to continue telling this to you over and over again cause i would hear same critiscims as before.
And i don't wan to have and perfect miner and perfect golem pilots. And it doesn't mean that i should go as everyone do and buy one from market and sell the other one instead. And i want to have an option to turn my guy toon from miner to something else and i'm ready to pay for that service a number of isk to ccp and accept sort of limitations and restrictions from ccp. Cause simply i don't want to trade my lovely character's uniqness and experience for someone else stuff.
The difference between the character bazaar and skill remaps is that somebodh had to put effort into training the character for sale. This took time and queue management and ultimately the player will profit from it .
Skill remaps would require no additional effort or planning thus negating one of the keystones of the skill training system. You get to fly x,y,or z hull with no planning or forethought required.
Ed: Note that I fundamentally disagree with the character bazaar too but it is a necessary evil. This discussion also highlights why there couldn't be any kind of remap allowed no matter how limited. Allow a little remap here and there and there will be increasing cries of 'but we can already remap x SP, allowing remap of a few SP more won't hurt...' |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 09:07:38 -
[293] - Quote
Piter Bakunin wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:The problem is i do compare char bazar and suggested skill remap and found them identical. Cause in the end you have what you want to have. You don't accept this statement. And i don't see any reason to continue telling this to you over and over again cause i would hear same critiscims as before.
And i don't wan to have and perfect miner and perfect golem pilots. And it doesn't mean that i should go as everyone do and buy one from market and sell the other one instead. And i want to have an option to turn my guy toon from miner to something else and i'm ready to pay for that service a number of isk to ccp and accept sort of limitations and restrictions from ccp. Cause simply i don't want to trade my lovely character's uniqness and experience for someone else stuff. 1 Character is not identical to 2 characters, no matter how much you want it to be. As far as I can see, you are advocating not only trading your lovely characters uniqness(sic) and experience by arguing for remaps, but throwing them out altogether. You would go from being "Tiddle Jr, former Miner turned Golem Pilot" to "Identical Perfect Golem Pilot #15423, until next week when I get bored"
Following your logic i could start buying every week a barand new character. Based on my weekly desire.
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Piter Bakunin
7
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Posted - 2015.04.06 09:31:50 -
[294] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Following your logic i could start buying every week a barand new character. Based on my weekly desire.
You can do this right now.
The difference that you are refusing to see is that each and every one of those characters has had time and money invested in it by the Vendor.
If you want a character with X Skillset that takes 6 months to train, and you have a character with Y Skillset that took 6 months to train, that currently takes 12months of training and subscriptions to create.
Introduce Respecs and that becomes 6months worth of training and subs for X Skillset, Y Skillset and any other 6month Skillset you can think of.
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Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light
112
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 11:53:53 -
[295] - Quote
The prevailing sentiment in this thread (and elsewhere) is to prevent instant gratification. I entirely fail to understand why this is seen as compatible with the abomination that is the character bazaar. Is there anything more instantly gratifying than throwing a few hundred dollars in PLEX at a character that has the skill set you want?
"But, someone had to train that character for real over the past few years, it's more real than bought SP" * irrelevant from the PoV of the buying player. "But, you have to accept deficiencies like a crappy name or infamy or an only partially decent skill set" * yes. hence me calling the bazaar an abomination: the player's spending metric tons of RL money, and still getting rubbish. "But, what about all the people that are currently invested in the character bazaar?" * I've no sympathy for people that make money off bad systems.
Now, I'm no proponent of a system that allows you to directly and instantly convert PLEX (or aurum, whichever of the two we'll still have in a few years' time). But the ability to accelerate a training queue makes vastly more sense in a non-instant-gratifying way than the character bazaar ever will. Essentially, we already have this in additional training queues (at the same cost of 1PLEX / 30 days), but in this case, you'd pay a PLEX for 30 days of accelerated training. Whether this should be a 100% speed increase, or somewhat less, can be debated. In my humble opinion here, 100% is not unreasonable, since the two competing options have additional benefits of their own: * an alt character on a separate account has the ability to be logged in simultaneously; * an alt character on the same account has the ability to be converted into an alt character on a separate account. Items like the cerebral accelerator can be converted into consumables that grant a certain period of "accelerated training" as well. Also, I'm sure CCP can manage to find a way to tie this ability into the lore surrounding new Drifter-derived tech (like what they're doing with the Entosis link).
Similarly, skill remaps also seem to go against the anti-instant-gratification mood. But lets face it, we all have our OCD moments, and I fail to see any reason why people shouldn't be able to dump (parts of) a skill (lets say for argument's sake "no refunds at all"). The only thing that needs checking is if the skill is a prerequisite for another skill the character currently has. If so, the skill can't be reduced below the level that still matches the prerequisite (this includes skills that the character doesn't actually already have at necessary prerequisite levels, due to skill tree changes). If the skill is reduced to 0 SP, it gets eliminated from the stat sheet (no skill book refund).
Now, combine above two systems into skill remapping functionality that doesn't involve instant gratification: refunds don't directly involve SP, but instead give you additional "accelerated training" time. Whether this is at a 1-for-1 ratio or less, whether this should be at an additional cost, can be debated. Here too, in-universe justification can be found: the untrained skill points could be seen as a "clearing of the mind" or as an area of "pre-formatted brain" which accepts new training more readily (but not instantly).
This system would probably greatly benefit from an uniform training speed (i.e. one decoupled from the attributes of the skill being trained), to avoid gaming the system (and to avoid effort being spend to prevent gaming of the system). Some effort should be spend on examining possible alternate effects for attributes, but if nothing elegant presents itself, just eliminate them outright already (and the attribute-only-affecting implants with them). As a side effect, you'll finally be able to swap clones without having to pause your training queue!
tl;dr * implement the ability to accelerate the training queue for a certain period (similar interface as additional training queues). * implement skill untraining that either provides no refund, or is refunded in accelerated training queue time. * decouple attributes from skill training speed (and drop them completely if no alternate use is found). * never (ab)use the viability of the character bazaar as an excuse not to do any of the above 3 things.
Until all are free...
|
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 12:39:47 -
[296] - Quote
That's sounds like something new and interesting from one side of it. I mean the training acceleration not the actual SP swap. At least someone sounds constructive and got into the topic. |
Odithia
Rondass
79
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 15:24:43 -
[297] - Quote
It's probably been suggested before but giving everyone a flat attribute distribution such as 27 in everything and getting rid of Remapping alltogether would go a long way to fix the current issues.
Implants would remain usefull, so it won't please those who advocate attribute implants removal but it's a step in the right direction (like the unlimited skill queue).
|
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
321
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 15:50:24 -
[298] - Quote
Can this thread be closed already?
ISD agreed with me when i raised this point on page one, and this thread has devolved into the unproductive slog that it has become about as rapidly as i figured it would.
"i want to rest my SP so i can tengu better"
"I think you should stop complaining and skill for it manually"
"i think you should stop being mean to me and GIMMEH"
"i think you sir are a misguided person who shares the intelect of a rock"
"your mum"
"nu-uh!"
"Did too"
"Did not" |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
105
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 20:22:17 -
[299] - Quote
Hmm Hmm hey mom maybe you stop bothrring to resd this thread ? |
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON. The Bastion
148
|
Posted - 2015.04.08 09:39:24 -
[300] - Quote
I'm against Pay To Win even SP.. The SP where the only limiting thing and balancing the pay to win factor for a player. Don't take those away
Can I haz you're stuff?
[i][b]A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead. Payday for good workers has been postponed indefinitely. Pa
|
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2117
|
Posted - 2015.04.08 18:37:05 -
[301] - Quote
I've never understood the mantra of 'no pay to win', when today you can at this very moment buy PLEX with cash and buy any ingame item, or even fully skilled toons from the character bazaar. Today. Already.
Now with regard to neural remapping. A neural remap change does not grant actual skill points, it reduces (or increases) potential training rates. Potential, as in 'will accumulate', not existing skill points cha-ching. So again, my confusion at peoples resistance to paying for neural remaps chanting the 'no pay to win' mantra, when a remap itself doesn't grant actual skillpoints -- the person still needs to grind their acquisition.
In short, the issue of neural remaps is not substantively a 'pay to win' discussion, furthermore so if said remaps can be funded by ingame ISK-to-PLEX and not just Cash-to-Aurum.
tldr; Calm the frack down, and make it so.
F
Would you like to know more?
|
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
107
|
Posted - 2015.04.08 20:50:33 -
[302] - Quote
Piter Bakunin wrote:[I have seen many threads on this idea over the years and every reason for has boiled down to nothing more than "I want it", which in my opinion is far from a compelling argument "You can't have it, because I don't think you should" isn't a very compelling argument either. |
Piter Bakunin
16
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 02:35:22 -
[303] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:Piter Bakunin wrote:[I have seen many threads on this idea over the years and every reason for has boiled down to nothing more than "I want it", which in my opinion is far from a compelling argument "You can't have it, because I don't think you should" isn't a very compelling argument either. Personally, I don't think it should be something you can buy. It should be an annual option to redistribute your points however you'd like. Maybe this year I want to be a dread pilot. Maybe next year I'll want to be an industry geek. The time it takes to get a capable character in this game is ridiculous. Why should I be forced through it again and again and again with an endless series of characters on multiple accounts? If skill acquisition weren't time based, I wouldn't support the concept. But it is. As for the character bazaar, I've bought and sold MANY characters over the years (it used to be one of my main income sources). However, if you look at it carefully these days, you'll see that overwhelming number of characters for sale are ones that are trained into a specific skillset for sale. That's the symptom of a problem.
Nice Strawman you built there, and you still failed to knock it down. I have made no argument, as I support the status quo in this matter. I have merely pointed out that not one of you has demonstrated a need for this service beyond "I want it".
If you want an argument as to why I believe we should not have this option available I will say that quite simply I believe it cheapens the game and dilutes character variation to a degree that is frankly unacceptable to me. What is the point of specialisation in a game where that investment can be replicated in moments by anyone with cash in hand and a whim?
What you call the symptom of a problem is proof that Specialising has value under the current system, a value that would be totally eliminated should Respecs be offered. I am happy to be Piter Bakunin, Frigate Specialist, I have no desire to be Piter Bakunin, 50million meaningless Skillpoints. |
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
108
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 03:10:27 -
[304] - Quote
You used a word from a rhetoric class. All further discussion is unnecessary.
X ATM092 is that you? (j/k X) |
Piter Bakunin
16
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 03:14:03 -
[305] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:I can't actually refute your position
Fixed that for you |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
108
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 03:32:26 -
[306] - Quote
So basically you (Piter) "don't want it" and that's why all your arguments and comments about this topic.
You could stay a frig pilot with 50m SP and don't ever remap them. But there are many others who would like to use such tool or option which is very similar to atributes remap we already have.
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Piter Bakunin
16
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 03:57:42 -
[307] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:So basically you (Piter) "don't want it" and that's why all your arguments and comments about this topic.
You could stay a frig pilot with 50m SP and don't ever remap them. But there are many others who would like to use such tool or option which is very similar to atributes remap we already have.
Well done, what gave it away?
You aree correct that I could choose not to use such a service, that however doesn't invalidate my point. A choice with no consequences is no choice at all.
Choosing to train as a Frigate pilot, in a game where that choice means I can't fly a Mining Barge, or a Dreadnought or whatever without spending the time to broaden my skillbase is a choice that carries weight.
Doing so in a game where I can alter that choice in a moment renders that choice meaningless.
What you want is not the same as an Attribute remap, as that merely allows you to train some skills slightly quicker, and others slower, skills that still need to be trained. A choice that bears weight for those who think Skillpoints are everything. A remap allows you to alter entire skillsets instantly, which makes any choice of what to train completely meaningless. |
Shodan Of Citadel
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 05:02:33 -
[308] - Quote
A total SP remap for characters older than 2009 + another for those who completely **** things up.
+2 mil SP for the 2009, +4 mil SP for 2010. +6 mil SP for 2012, +8 mil SP for 2013, +10mil for 2014 and the final insult to bitter vets... 2015 and 2016 toons start with 15 million SP allocated along similar career paths that older characters were able to choose.
remove all attribute implants and boost SP/H.
Maybe let 2004/05 players remap their SP across multiple alts.
But buying an SP remap... everyone should benefit, not just a few with the RL money or space-rich. |
Mag's
the united
19265
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 08:17:06 -
[309] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:Piter Bakunin wrote:[I have seen many threads on this idea over the years and every reason for has boiled down to nothing more than "I want it", which in my opinion is far from a compelling argument "You can't have it, because I don't think you should" isn't a very compelling argument either. Personally, I don't think it should be something you can buy. It should be an annual option to redistribute your points however you'd like. Maybe this year I want to be a dread pilot. Maybe next year I'll want to be an industry geek. The time it takes to get a capable character in this game is ridiculous. Why should I be forced through it again and again and again with an endless series of characters on multiple accounts? If skill acquisition weren't time based, I wouldn't support the concept. But it is. As for the character bazaar, I've bought and sold MANY characters over the years (it used to be one of my main income sources). However, if you look at it carefully these days, you'll see that overwhelming number of characters for sale are ones that are trained into a specific skillset for sale. That's the symptom of a problem. We are not saying 'You can't have it, because I don't think you should' we are asking for a logical and valid reason for this change. One that is not simply 'I want'. There is a difference. So far, no one has given one.
As far as you talk of the time it takes for a capable pilot, what you mean is multi-capable. I new pilot can be capable in the first day or so of playing. What he will not be able to do, is fly a Battleship, cruiser, carrier or a Titan and bridge all his mates.
I have quite a few SP, much of which I do not use and probably never will. But what I am is multi-capable, but at any one time I only use a small percentage of my SP. What people are asking for here, is to be multi-capable but without having to train for it. They want to simply move SP where ever, whenever they want. Because they want. Well it just so happens that sometimes what people want, isn't necessarily what the game wants or needs.
Now I can see the arguments for the removal of attributes and the implants associated with them, giving all pilots a fixed SP/h. I have had my mind changed in that regard. But so far, not one argument has been put forward to convince me this is a good idea.
So, still waiting.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 11:12:05 -
[310] - Quote
Not sure exactly why resetting SP is coming up as the main topic, but probably because it's a close update from what already is.
Beyond that idea, the benefits of SP updating are clear:
- Probable increased sub retention from fresh characters
This is the basis. Starting with 50k SP, low ship stats and performance, a bunch of arbitrary locks (inb4 lore) on a sandbox (that's probably pretty simply balanced around just ISK or availability of resources).. is a negative-reinforcement experience ("here's a limit, here's getting out of the limit"), but without a reward that matches the negativity of poor play (or literally not playing, for fresh skills). Spoiler alert: the game is fun enough without training as a main mechanic, because gameplay; but the relevant idea thereof is if the server infrastructure is even strong enough for an influx of characters, upon the notion of sandbox boundlessness.
In other words, matching the energy of a fresh experience is helpul: why smiling comes from feeling good, and good feelings come from smiling. It's a feedback loop, but finding ship fits and flight theory is at best rewarded with some 20-50% less in possible performance for nothing.
- There's no balance system for SP (for low stats)
If low SP is rewarded with advanced industrial output; that undermines the market.. etc.
SP training is an unrewarding experience, and so ineffective at promoting gameplay that it's probably a main reason for any unsub trends. It's non-interactive and promotes station sitting (probably negatively impacting market prices, both because of .01ing and less action). |
|
Mag's
the united
19266
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 12:32:52 -
[311] - Quote
Dror wrote:SP training is an unrewarding experience, and so ineffective at promoting gameplay that it's probably a main reason for any unsub trends. It's non-interactive and promotes station sitting (probably negatively impacting market prices, both because of .01ing and less action). It's not the fault of the skill system in Eve, but rather the mind set of many players. Who after player other MMO games with the traditional XP system, bring the thought that Eve is like those in that regard. It isn't and as Tippia once posted:
Tippia wrote:Respeccing exists in xp/level/class-based games to solve the problem that, as you level up, you pick more and more deeply nested skills from a small skill tree to build something that works together as a unit. If at any point, you mess up or if a skill is changed, that unity is broken. Your class also restricts what skill tree you have at your disposal so that's really just a set of root nodes for the whole tree. EVE doesn't work like that. At all. EVE has no levels and no classes, and no XP. You are not restricted to one narrow set of skills and the skill tree is not deeply nested to give you something new for each level. As a result, if you want to do something else or if you want to tweak things, you can just go and train it. It won't even take that long. The problem you are suggesting doesn't exist because the EVE skill system doesn't work in a way that creates such problems; the solution is already built into the system. Now as I said earlier, I can agree with arguments regarding attributes as well as learning implants being removed and replaced with set SP/h. If anything is required in regards to SP training, it is that change. Not SP remapping.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
486
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 14:35:05 -
[312] - Quote
Dror wrote:Not sure exactly . . .SP training is an unrewarding experience, and so ineffective at promoting gameplay that it's probably a main reason for any unsub trends. It's non-interactive and promotes station sitting (probably negatively impacting market prices, both because of .01ing and less action). The above is your theory. Nothing more.
My theory is that some new players can't adjust to seeing themselves as a ship, and want instead to be a walking swinging humanoid pixel warrior.
Which is right?
WE DON"T KNOW.
But you have not proven a reason why this game should become another clone of all the other games like WoW. Many people who have been playing this game for a long time love the differences that this game has been built around. Personally I am disappointed with the removal of racial attributes, when a rebalance would have been better. I also don't agree with the removal of clone costs. And I really hope they never do away with attributes.
But none of those fundamentally alters the skill system the way the remapping of sp would. If remapping of sp were allowed into this game it would no longer be about choices. Then there will be arguments that the time based nature of sp accumulation must go. I do not want this game to devolve into an xp repetitive action grind based skill system.
My first character was made in 2006. This character was made in 2012. None of them can match the accumulated skills of a 2003 character. But they don't have to. Level 5 in specs is as good as any character can get. Younger characters make choices in what to max out just as older characters did. After about a year or two in the game, the main advantage older characters have is breadth of skill, not depth.
Eve has always been about carefully considered meaningful decisions. Introducing skill remapping would take away the carfully considered part. And I really think you would no longer have any pride in your character. It would just be another fad of the month ship chaser, awaiting the inevitable nerf of the fotm, and then respeccing into whatever would become the next fotm, rinse and repeat. And new players would be at an even worse place in that game.
All you folks asking for skill respecs would not be satisfied even with them. You would still find a skill disadvantage as against older players. So next you would be asking for plex for sp packs. At that point the entire skill system would be meaningless.
Piter Bakunin's posts are spot on as to why skill respeccing is no good and not needed. And you really should accept that the game is different, and enjoy that difference.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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NinjaTurtle
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
91
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 08:21:46 -
[313] - Quote
ignore me
I do things.
http://declarationsofwar.com
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
110
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 11:05:27 -
[314] - Quote
Conservatives whinnings as usual follows to anything new and not comfortable changes, improvements etc. So i wouldn't worry to much about ut casue as it mentioned the racial attibutes removal was not supported, clone cost upgrade was not supported, skill learning atributes removal was not supported. So looks liek we have two last thing to fight for Attributes removal/change current system and tafter that SP remap.
Will see how it goes. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 16:48:56 -
[315] - Quote
Mag's wrote:It's not the skill system in Eve, but rather the mind set A lot more's in a mind set, than what's in the skill system.
Deacon Abox wrote:Theory.. nothing more SP is an unrewarding experience, because toying around with fits probably results in them not fitting, for no apparent reason than "probably some skill" -- which is of such tone because they make no sense, in game design or opening lore. Leveling up makes sense: it's playing and getting better. Watching a skill queue makes no sense; it's the equivalent of the game going "fug you" on almost every activity, until it seems like "fug off".
It's an unrewarding experience because of how obvious exactly what percentage of a sub is relevant. If the only carrot is "not having poor stats", the status quo of having poor stats seems awful. It's ineffective at promoting gameplay the same.
Thus, the only idea that's possibly a "theory" is effect on sub trends.. yet it is a correlation (thus "probably").
--
If nothing about the SP system is helpful for fresh play, then its discussion is. |
Shodan Of Citadel
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 22:33:33 -
[316] - Quote
Some slight changes to how newbies (in their first 30d) start and run career agents might get them into the game better.
Career agents are changed so that when a newbie runs the missions, they don't get skillbooks, but the skillbooks are injected and set to L1. Advanced Career Agents are designed to improve the skills the player starts with by +2 levels over the current. Someone could do a small arc of 4-5 missions and get their Frigate, Gunnery, Nav, etc... improved on.
A Final Agent available to newbies who did at least 1 of the Advanced Career Agent Arcs who installs some funky implant that permanently boosts your attributes by 2. The goal is to get them in, get them playing, get them resubbing.
This is only available to new toons/alts only who are under 30 days old. Don't complete it, no problem, but no +2 to your attributes. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
489
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 23:53:21 -
[317] - Quote
Dror wrote: SP is an unrewarding experience, because toying around with fits probably results in them not fitting, for no apparent reason than "probably some skill" -- which is of such tone because they make no sense, in game design or opening lore. Leveling up makes sense: it's playing and getting better. Watching a skill queue makes no sense; it's the equivalent of the game going "fug you" on almost every activity, until it seems like "fug off".
It's an unrewarding experience because of how obvious exactly what percentage of a sub is relevant. If the only carrot is "not having poor stats", the status quo of having poor stats seems awful. It's ineffective at promoting gameplay the same.
Thus, the only idea that's possibly a "theory" is effect on sub trends.. yet it is a correlation (thus "probably").
--
If nothing about the SP system is helpful for fresh play, then its discussion is. Holy crap! WoW. So bad. Is it really so hard to read skill descriptions?
Yes, this game is not for you.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 02:30:21 -
[318] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:Skill descriptions
That's a very shallow response on a very encompassing idea (poor status quo from stats).
For the fresh experience, it's an unexpected setback for no apparently-decent reason. |
Loteaus Seaven
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 00:11:19 -
[319] - Quote
The way the skills are squired is a good example of delayed gratification.
Would it be a fair compromise if, like how we can remap once a year, we could change one skill per year, to correct an error made in haste, ignorance, or misdirection? Over time, this would produce a character more aligned to the place you have created in EVE.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31013
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 07:07:12 -
[320] - Quote
Hey CCP, if you let me swap clones in station (for the purpose of going from learning implants to PVP implants), I'd consider all issues regarding remaps, learning implants, and risk aversion (due to implants) solved. Right now you have to use a jump clone timer even if it's in-station and that doesn't make much sense to me. I'm under the impression jump clone timers are there to limit travel (and you don't travel if all you're doing is changing clones in your current station).
Help, I can't download EVE
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
35048
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 11:28:45 -
[321] - Quote
this thread still exists?!
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! Join the fight!
I am a cat.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1087
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 12:03:31 -
[322] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote:this thread still exists?!
It's like > /dev/null for bad SP ideas |
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
4
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:40:19 -
[323] - Quote
Loteaus Seaven wrote:The way the skills are squired is a good example of delayed gratification.
Would it be a fair compromise if, like how we can remap once a year, we could change one skill per year, to correct an error made in haste, ignorance, or misdirection? Over time, this would produce a character more aligned to the place you have created in EVE.
I agree with this - you should be able to reallocate a fixed number of skill point s each year.
I trained RE 5 a long time ago when 100% refine was standard. Now its a lot less useful. It would be nice to retrain to something that is. Limited skill remapping would still make career path an important choice, but provide some measure of forgiveness for errors or CCP changing the rules. |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous WINMATAR.
35410
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:34:45 -
[324] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Liafcipe9000 wrote:this thread still exists?! It's like > /dev/null for bad SP ideas
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! Join the fight!
I am a cat.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1097
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:44:38 -
[325] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Liafcipe9000 wrote:this thread still exists?! It's like > /dev/null for bad SP ideas
I'd say it's 50:50 that EvE ships run on some quantum bit version of UNIX
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Coldures
The Senate and People of Rome Fortis Et Certus
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 14:20:22 -
[326] - Quote
As I sit here reading this post at first I was excited, I thought finally I get to go back and swap out all those SP's I wasted as a noob, then it dawned on me, just like my real life, my mistakes and misguided adventures have made me into the person I am.
So is it true in the game. we are who we are. if you make it where all I have to do is buy a few PLEX's and I can wipe all my past away in the blink of an eye I would cease to be the toon many people have come to know.
So PAY TO WIN is not even remotely a funny idea. stop and think you get a 1 day old toon he sees a bright shiny Kronos fly by... Now in reality he is a year out from that ship (all supporting skills at lvl 5). but what does he do he goes and gets daddies credit card buys 10 PLEX's and BAM! this one day old toon is now fully skilled to fly a Marauder!!! it would end EVE as it is.
So let not go the way of every other MMO out there LETS stay with the cold hard reality of being stuck with what you got.
PLEX for remaps don't see a real problem with that if you want to drop 800+ mil on PLEX or $20.00 on a PLEX to remap go for it. that want effect the true time based Skill Points system it only allows for limited manipulation of it.
Thanks Cold |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
117
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 06:33:35 -
[327] - Quote
Let me ensure you that SP remap won't make you a different from whom you are. And noone is saying you could simply wipe all skill points to zero and then spread them as you like which brings you into a brand new role or specialization. It's about how in a gentle manner you could correct some of your steps consider them as mistakenly made or whatever. So once a year you have limited number of SP which you could if you want move from one area to another. And this feature costs something like plex aurum or isk. Like they did with body modification.
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Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
449
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 08:55:47 -
[328] - Quote
Just let me delete the skillpoints I do not want. i do not want the skillpoints back or the isk for the skillbooks. I am so OCD.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
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Mag's
the united
19308
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 09:09:25 -
[329] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Let me ensure you that SP remap won't make you a different from whom you are. Except it will.
Tiddle Jr wrote:And noone is saying you could simply wipe all skill points to zero and then spread them as you like which brings you into a brand new role or specialization. Except they are. That's exactly what many want.
Tiddle Jr wrote:It's about how in a gentle manner you could correct some of your steps consider them as mistakenly made or whatever. So once a year you have limited number of SP which you could if you want move from one area to another. And this feature costs something like plex aurum or isk. Like they did with body modification. Which so far, no one has given a good reason for.
Kyt Thrace wrote:Just let me delete the skillpoints I do not want. i do not want the skillpoints back or the isk for the skillbooks. I'd agree to that, but I doubt it will happen.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 12:43:31 -
[330] - Quote
Not sure the implications that all SP ideas are about complete redistribution is helpful for the discussion.
As listed: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5653733#post5653733, and explained in more detail: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5657402#post5657402 -- the SP system is at least as negatively effective as it is helpful. Yet, it being so decent at keeping Supers a niche and it being so decent at keeping fresh play out of literally everything is very one-sided design, with nothing in favor of gameplay thereof.
If no idea can defend the limitations of SP, then that's the draw -- which is a lot more on topic than defending complete redistribution, if for nothing more than the encompassment of possibilities. The posts above list objective problems -- "abundance: allowing sandbox play".
Moreso, no idea can defend the probability that Super admission is possibly limited with just materials over arbitrary skill requirements, without development response. That's an interesting topic. Nothing assures that a Super stays on field but decent play (if the mechanics are provisional), so straight PLEXing for something is without sustain; and if it is at all semi-permanently problematic, then the market responding under the increased demand is inherently balancing.
Enjoy.
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Mag's
the united
19329
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 08:18:10 -
[331] - Quote
Dror wrote:Google translated quote. Still waiting for a reason for this change.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
398
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 12:11:24 -
[332] - Quote
I've been thinking about the whole SP remapping concept in general: The situation with the Ishtars would've been exacerbated had people been able to remap their SP after that fateful patch in September of 2013.
The people who could fly Ishtars and immediately deploy them - that is great, then the people who started training towards them to also employ the new strategy & tactics - that is also fine, but an immediate avalanche of Ishtars post-patch would be catastrophic. Perhaps, were such a concept like the remap take place, there could be a limit on how much SP you can reset on a 6-monthly, yearly basis?
You could essentially account for the that SP drift, so we don't get overnight FOTM and meta changes each patch.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
766
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 12:56:43 -
[333] - Quote
How about simply not having remaps.
This eliminates the need for a major revamp of a system which is reasonably fair (depending on how you feel about learning implants), cannot be gamed and has worked perfectly well since the removal of ghost training some years ago.
True you can't buy your way into everything you want instantly but then I don't see delayed gratification as a bad thing for this game.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
494
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 15:39:02 -
[334] - Quote
Shakuul wrote:Loteaus Seaven wrote:The way the skills are squired is a good example of delayed gratification.
Would it be a fair compromise if, like how we can remap once a year, we could change one skill per year, to correct an error made in haste, ignorance, or misdirection? Over time, this would produce a character more aligned to the place you have created in EVE.
I agree with this - you should be able to reallocate a fixed number of skill point s each year. I trained RE 5 a long time ago when 100% refine was standard. Now its a lot less useful. It would be nice to retrain to something that is. Limited skill remapping would still make career path an important choice, but provide some measure of forgiveness for errors or CCP changing the rules. Except this wasn't an error. This was you deciding you wanted RE 5 and gaining the benefit of the use of that skill for any amount of time (one day or ten years it doesn't matter). And no, CCP does not guarantee anything about the stats on the skills or the ships. If they decide they don't like the way RE 5 is playing out within the game they reserve the right to change it. And if you trained that skill you are stuck with whatever the new performance is.
No player in any MMO can reasonably expect that his griffin mount or hat of wizardry or Draek will ever stay the same in absolute or relative performance within whatever game he may be playing.
HTFU. And remember this thread is a dump to prevent the pollution of these forums with all these OCD and instant gratification threads from popping up all over, and again. It hasn't changed for ten years. It won't now. Learn to accept and/or love the skill system in this game. Period.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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Javani
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
4
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 10:07:18 -
[335] - Quote
Defently nope!
This would be contar to the time base skill system. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 04:41:24 -
[336] - Quote
Well like everyone else has said over and over, I totally agree. Buying SP is the dumbest idea i've heard in the forums and will definitely destroy Eve if implemented. HOWEVER i'm okay with the idea of allocating SP from one area to another in case CCP happens to nerf a particular ship class that was pretty good before some unfortunate pilots began training for them that became irrelevant by the time training for them ended (most people should know which class I'm talking about so I won't go into anymore details). It should only be allowed once a year and cost one plex per 2 mill SP allocated. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:06:32 -
[337] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:I've been thinking about the whole SP remapping concept in general: The situation with the Ishtars after that fateful patch in Sept of 2013 would've been exacerbated had people been able to remap their SP. The people who could fly Ishtars and immediately deployed them - that is great, then the people who started training towards them to also employ the new strategy & tactics - that is also fine, but an immediate avalanche of Ishtars post-patch would have been catastrophic. Perhaps, were such a concept like the remap take place, there could be a limit on how much SP you can reset on a 6-monthly, yearly basis? You could essentially account for the that SP drift, so we don't get situations with overnight FOTM and meta shifts each significant update sharp. Such a limit could also extend to the age of the character, or condition - the less total SP, the more Skillpoints would be available for remap, which could also help with new player retention.
As usual Iroquoiss your comments are relevant and thorough. The remapping has to be on a skill trained within the same year you wish to allocate elsewhere. As for limit, I say a remap of 4 mill SP per year for the cost of 2 plexes.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2304
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:19:45 -
[338] - Quote
Coldures wrote:As I sit here reading this post at first I was excited, I thought finally I get to go back and swap out all those SP's I wasted as a noob, then it dawned on me, just like my real life, my mistakes and misguided adventures have made me into the person I am.
So is it true in the game. we are who we are. if you make it where all I have to do is buy a few PLEX's and I can wipe all my past away in the blink of an eye I would cease to be the toon many people have come to know.
So PAY TO WIN is not even remotely a funny idea. stop and think you get a 1 day old toon he sees a bright shiny Kronos fly by... Now in reality he is a year out from that ship (all supporting skills at lvl 5). but what does he do he goes and gets daddies credit card buys 10 PLEX's and BAM! this one day old toon is now fully skilled to fly a Marauder!!! it would end EVE as it is.
So let not go the way of every other MMO out there LETS stay with the cold hard reality of being stuck with what you got.
PLEX for remaps don't see a real problem with that if you want to drop 800+ mil on PLEX or $20.00 on a PLEX to remap go for it. that want effect the true time based Skill Points system it only allows for limited manipulation of it.
Thanks Cold You realize when they decided to let people buy characters your nightmare scenario of getting Daddys credit card to jump straight into a marauder was realized. The idea of paid remapping / skillpoints (while I am entirely against any pay to win) is nowhere near as bad.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
130
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:56:37 -
[339] - Quote
Peoples do complain against remapping as it some sort of disease which make them sick if it's ever happens.
What's wrong with it? Do i miss something ? |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
496
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 01:13:35 -
[340] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Peoples do complain against remapping as it some sort of disease which make them sick if it's ever happens.
What's wrong with it? Do i miss something ? Yes. It exacerbates FOTM chasing. And that will still help older players more. They will have more so to reallocate and put spec skills to 5 instead of 4.
Additionally it goes against everything EVE is and what makes it a different game from all the other MMOS. Your character can lose his Shiney possessions and even sp. Although now only with a stray cruiser loss.
Lastly a person has usually gained some benefit from sp they later might prefer to have trained differently. CCP issues no guarantee that in game item will stay the same. Rebalancing is how things are adjusted and made better in this game. It is not by granting everyone a reroll. Live with it.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
88
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Posted - 2015.04.27 14:47:22 -
[341] - Quote
Kueyen wrote: [...]and I fail to see any reason why people shouldn't be able to dump (parts of) a skill (lets say for argument's sake "no refunds at all"). The only thing that needs checking is if the skill is a prerequisite for another skill the character currently has. If so, the skill can't be reduced below the level that still matches the prerequisite (this includes skills that the character doesn't actually already have at necessary prerequisite levels, due to skill tree changes). If the skill is reduced to 0 SP, it gets eliminated from the stat sheet (no skill book refund). [...]
Like many others I don't like this idea. It makes no logical sense, or have you e.g. been able in school to forget anything what you have learned about a foreign language and instantly got access to knowledge in maths in exchange?
I doubt you have because it would have made school much easier. Just spend enough time learning "something" to gather a pool of skill points and switch your knowledge from one area to another in case it's required for a test. At least my parents told me: you never know why you have learned something until you need it, and while the others are able to take away all your goods knowledge is something they can't take away.
This situation applies to EVE. Whatever you have learned is learned and can't and shouldn't be forgotten. If you enable a system where you can move around skill points from one area to another you render learning useless. All you need to enable your "godmode" is a pool of skill points which can be reassigned whenever you want. After that point learning would become useless.
There is a game out there were you can do this. A system was created where you could switch your knowledge and even keep 2 different types of skill selection in mind - and switch between them. It's WOW. This plus all the changes which wiped out the special characterization details (tanks can make damage now) made this game more user of child friendly.
Don't do this to EVE. Whatever you do, it must have consequences - and choosing what you learn next also falls into this category. This is a game for the grown ups and not the children who want to play without thinking about tomorrow. |
Joanna RB
Twenty Questions RAZOR Alliance
18
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Posted - 2015.04.27 19:49:31 -
[342] - Quote
If this is to happen, please let it be for straight isk rather than plex.
There are already FAR too many things assigned to plexes pushing the price of them north.
A Plex should be just that - a game time extension sellable on the open market. Not a third form of currency.
Multi character training, ship skins, aurum, character transfer, tickets for events ect. should be paid for by RL cash or isk. Not plexes. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
136
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 23:10:20 -
[343] - Quote
Joanna RB wrote:If this is to happen, please let it be for straight isk rather than plex.
There are already FAR too many things assigned to plexes pushing the price of them north.
A Plex should be just that - a game time extension sellable on the open market. Not a third form of currency.
Multi character training, ship skins, aurum, character transfer, tickets for events ect. should be paid for by RL cash or isk. Not plexes.
PLEX=ISK=RL cash, you already have that. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
136
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 23:20:49 -
[344] - Quote
Dustpuppy wrote:Kueyen wrote: [...]and I fail to see any reason why people shouldn't be able to dump (parts of) a skill (lets say for argument's sake "no refunds at all"). The only thing that needs checking is if the skill is a prerequisite for another skill the character currently has. If so, the skill can't be reduced below the level that still matches the prerequisite (this includes skills that the character doesn't actually already have at necessary prerequisite levels, due to skill tree changes). If the skill is reduced to 0 SP, it gets eliminated from the stat sheet (no skill book refund). [...]
Like many others I don't like this idea. It makes no logical sense, or have you e.g. been able in school to forget anything what you have learned about a foreign language and instantly got access to knowledge in maths in exchange? I doubt you have because it would have made school much easier. Just spend enough time learning "something" to gather a pool of skill points and switch your knowledge from one area to another in case it's required for a test. At least my parents told me: you never know why you have learned something until you need it, and while the others are able to take away all your goods knowledge is something they can't take away. This situation applies to EVE. Whatever you have learned is learned and can't and shouldn't be forgotten. If you enable a system where you can move around skill points from one area to another you render learning useless. All you need to enable your "godmode" is a pool of skill points which can be reassigned whenever you want. After that point learning would become useless. There is a game out there were you can do this. A system was created where you could switch your knowledge and even keep 2 different types of skill selection in mind - and switch between them. It's WOW. This plus all the changes which wiped out the special characterization details made this game more user of child friendly but in the end there was no real role play left. Tanks suddenly were able to act as damage dealers and even in the role of the tank they were able to make damage. Why? Because people didn't like specialization. They wanted a god mode where everyone would be perfect in every role. Don't do this to EVE. Whatever you do, it must have consequences - and choosing what you learn next also falls into this category. This is a game for the grown ups and not the children who want to play without thinking about tomorrow.
Please don't mix up the things. It's a game as you said not real life with schools and colleges. You also haven't read all the suggestions due to this thread came into tl;dr. It is not when you remap everytime you want, it is not the all skills which you can to remap.
And the real god mode is when you are allowed to have as many jc you want where you could allocate skills in you desired manner along with implants so you could simply jump all arround every 24 hrs. and be everything you want. Surprisingly noone yet suggested that. |
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
90
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:36:31 -
[345] - Quote
Just because there are ways to make things even worse (unlimited JCs...) doesn't mean your idea is brilliant.
Again, EVE is a game where your decisions have consequences. Think, act and don't complain if your decisions haven't been the best, but don't play around with ideas to unwind/revert what you have done in the past.
If you don't like this - switch to WOW. Here you can reassign all the skills whenever you want and in a way you want. You don't loose stuff when you die, you don't have to wait until your char has trained something, you can grind your way up to the top. Whatever you do it has no consequences. And since Blizzard even changed fundamental things (tanks just being tanks with lots of armor but no chance to apply a lot of damage and now the re at the same time damage dealers) it's now almost irrelevant what kind of character type you choose.
Blizzard listened to all those guys whining because they were unable to do everything with their loved char and made everything so easy that even casual players can easily reach the end game before a new expansion is sold. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 23:51:49 -
[346] - Quote
Reading is hard sometimes i know it. If you didn't read actual proposal i feel sorry for that. And please stop ref. to WoW i hqve never played this piece of ... art. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
1411
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 09:49:39 -
[347] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:No from me still, pay to win is bad. I agree.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1122
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 02:37:13 -
[348] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Reading is hard sometimes i know it. If you didn't read actual proposal i feel sorry for that. And please stop ref. to WoW i hqve never played this piece of ... art.
Chuckles at 'art'...
My real issue with the idea is twofold, firstly you are allowing people to erase 'mistakes' and basically change the history of their account. This offends my sensibilities as an old school RPG player but also goes against a core priciple of the game.
Secondly and more importantly in game mechanics to be useful this would require a sizeable chunk of sp to be remapped and in that case it can be abused. If it isn't a useful amount of sp the it isn't worth developer time to implement. If a mechanic starts needing multiple exceptions to function it is a bad mechanic and als becomes more of a code support pain with each workaround to take into account in future changes |
Pew Terror
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
217
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:38:10 -
[349] - Quote
Changing the linear catch up curve to a more exponential one would be amazing for younger players.
Something like (((EvE lifetim Age) - (Character age)) * no implant yearly SP) / 10 PLEX purchasable max SP would mean I could buy 10% of the years that i just did not know this game existed and be at least somewhat competent in subcaps as a 2-3year old char. It would still be only 10% of the SP as a vet total as a new player. |
Aran Hotchkiss
Phoibe Enterprises
82
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 07:17:00 -
[350] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Changing the linear catch up curve to a more exponential one would be amazing for younger players.
Something like (((EvE lifetim Age) - (Character age)) * no implant yearly SP) / 10 PLEX purchasable max SP would mean I could buy 10% of the years that i just did not know this game existed and be at least somewhat competent in subcaps as a 2-3year old char. It would still be only 10% of the SP as a vet total as a new player.
Soooo.... PLEX transactions for SP?
One thing we've managed to agree on in this thread is no Pay-To-Win. That and Malcanis's law
Shamelessly stole this line,
Alternatively, QFT
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
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StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
171
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 22:17:21 -
[351] - Quote
I trained perc/will skills for years under mem/int attributes before the remapping of attributes thing happened. Felt shafted outta all the time i wasted training off spec. Though i would love the ability to remap the sp i put into mining drones into another skill within the same category. I still wouldn't want it to be possible.
No to remaps for isk, plex, favors of questionable nature, and all that.
No SP shufflin either.
No.
EDIT: No.
Signature Removal in Progress, Estimated time of completion? Neva
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Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
450
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 01:40:27 -
[352] - Quote
No to all but....
A certain amount of Plex to rename a character you bought on the bazaar because like in RL you can change your name ( but your old name would be stored somewhere (agent locator?web site? employement history with a specific line for Name Change?
CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails
.... Open that damn door !!
you shall all bow and pray BoB
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
162
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 03:21:29 -
[353] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:No to all but....
A certain amount of Plex to rename a character you bought on the bazaar because like in RL you can change your name ( but your old name would be stored somewhere (agent locator?web site? employement history with a specific line for Name Change?
Just No, withou any constructive feedback?
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31393
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 08:07:33 -
[354] - Quote
I'd say purchasing a character on bazaar is pretty close to satisfying the buying SP requirement. It's practical because it's a system that is already in place. In order to bring it closer to being a perfect solution, purchased characters would need to be personalized... the obvious one being the character's name.
That leaves things like race and bloodline, and gender, and employment history. Even without those things, it's a 90% solution (and a 90% around here is an A).
So I'm not sure it's worth making drastic changes to the SP accumulation mechanic we're all used to, and subscribed to.
Help, I can't download EVE
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
462
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:30:53 -
[355] - Quote
The most I would like to see is being able to pool up your remaps whenever you don't use them right away. That way you still get your annual remap, but if you don't use the remap right away, you are not missing out on anything.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
230
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 20:32:54 -
[356] - Quote
Personally it would be tempting to be able to purchase skill-point remaps for some of my characters, I am sure there are many many Eve players who would be tempted by that ability.
But it really does get interesting when you consider whether this would be good for the game. As tempting as the ability to purchase SP remaps would be, I can't in all honesty say that it would be good for the game. Actually, it might even be bad for the game.
enjoy every moment or some one else will enjoy it for you
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Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
80
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 13:18:05 -
[357] - Quote
I dont get why this discussion is always moving towards purchasing allocation?
Skill allocation should be a built in feauture to activate once a year or once in two years to combat player retention.
Yes eve is harsh and you should live with consecences, but in this game it takes years changing style or doing something else, which in turn gets people logging off when opening new avenues of gameplay. In many cases when they finally log in again they even forgot which avenue they where taking which got them afk in the first place
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HELLBOUNDMAN
Subterranean Space Worm
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 19:17:51 -
[358] - Quote
So, I wanted to add a fresh coat of perspective on this topic, from a player that has only one active toon, one account, and over 57mil SP.
Be warned, this might get long.
So, I've been in WH, null, and high. I've also done many low roams. I'm not too grand at PVP, but can get by, if need be. I prefer the carebear ways. I've been around since '08, and have taken breaks here and there.
So, I began in Eve before there was much work on the "New Player Experience", and have battled through many hardships, especially when you consider I'm a casual player and prefer not to PVP. My first bit of time was spent mining, as it's the only thing I could figure out. Now, this was before griefing/trolling/baiting/etc. was bannable in noob systems. So, needless to say, I lost a lot of ships before someone, who killed me 4 times in 10 minutes, decided to explain to me how the aggression mechanics worked. Once I heard this, I was able to actually start mining and making a profit. Mined and mined and mined, all while training for a Gallente BS, in hopes i would be able to blow something up. I thought I could just train into a BS and go blap NPCs out of the universe. Boy was I wrong. Especially starting as a Gallente pilot, training Gallente ships. Man was I surprised to see my first Megathron get blapped by NPCs. Wish I would have known there was more to life than flying a ship at the time. T1 BS, with T1 fittings, slim to no support skills, and no idea how to build a fit.. Needless to say, I lost that ship, and all the isk I had. So, I got back into mining. By this time, I had likely been in a corp, and possibly more than one, and had seen mining barges/exhumers. So, I knew there was a place to go.. So, while crappily mining one day in a barge, I decided I was bored and would go explore. Somehow, I managed to figure out how to probe.. Don't ask me where those skills came from. in my (high sec) scanning adventures, I managed to come across the most beautiful sight I had ever seen. I would forever change my direction in Eve, and likely was the cause of my retention, and why I continue to come back to Eve. It was the "Awe" of seeing a GOLEM. It amazing!!! On top of that, the player I scanned down was using 3 accounts, ALL IN GOLEMS!!!! THE TRIFECTA OF PERFECTION!!! When you're sitting in a frig, and this is your first time out of a 1.0 noob system, these things look like BEASTS.. This is when I began to study, and learn the ease of use for missiles. I learned that, unlike turrets, missiles could be effective with low skill. Unfortunately, I didn't have anything in shields, missiles, or Caldari ships. So, with a solid focus in mind, I grinded HARD...mining... That sucked quite a bit, but I was building Isk, building SP, buying books, and slowly buying up to the Golem... I finally got to the point where I could finally pilot a BS class missile boat.... THE RAVEN... Little brother to the Golem!!! IT WAS TIME TO BLOW SOME $H!T UP!!!! For example, my Raven.... Yeah... turns out, though missiles can be effective with low skill; your fit, tank, dps, and everything else is also pretty important. So, I was back to the mining grind stone, in order to build skills and get back into a functional Raven. Unfortunately, I got in the mining trap. I wanted more efficiency, thus more isk/hr. So, I cut off training for the Raven and worked my way into the HULK... At the time, it was the beast of mining. Nothing else could tank, produce, or carry near as much. To make a long story short, after some Hulk losses, Raven losses, attempts at getting into worthwhile corps, trying low and null sec, trolls, baits, bumps, camps, etc. etc. etc... I finally made it into the GOLEM!!! Only to find out, it was an utter pile of crap!!!... No wonder why that guy had 3... This was before Bastion, before NPCs swapped targets, and all the other things. He had one Golem tanking/drawing damps/jams, and two with TPs and cruise to actually be able to apply reasonable damage and complete mission. (BTW, this was pre-missile changes as well.) I even tried the Torp Golem, only to find that it face melted even worse; because, by the time you could apply damage, you were getting hit for max damage... Not to mention that if you're not lvl 5 range skills, with T2 range rigs, BS's orbiting at max NPC range (somewhere around 50km) could actually out range your torps... AHHH!!! I hated life at this point... However, I still had my mining career to fall back on, and I had trained myself up into an ORCA!!! HAHA!!! This would get me into a decent corp for sure! Finally got invited to a Corp and wanted to show that I could be a helpful part of socie....wait what??? Oh, you already have 4 orca pilots with max skills and boosts.... Great.... Guess I own this big 800 mil (at the time) ship for nothing... Glad I sold all my other goodies in order to afford it... Good news though... I was able to sell it and afford a Hulk AND a Raven. So, I maxed out my hulk capabilities, so that I could be a great asset to fleet mining. I also got a good bit more focused with the Raven, IE max missile support skills. Unfortunately, I was now in Caldari space, where the Golem had failed so badly, and was still spending a lot of time jammed by NPCs. this is when I found out about that sneaky little b@stard, the Tengu... 900 dps, 100km range, over 200m/s without props, strong sensors, better tank than a Golem(not even factoring sig), AND it was a missile boat??? SOLD... Got all the skills, got myself setup, spent the 1bil on the ship itself(they cost a lot more back in the day). NOW I was missioning like a champ!!! BAM HML NERF!! SON OF A .....!!!!! I can't win, even if the task is losing!! Oh well... I was thinking about getting into lasers anyway... Tired of buying ammo all the time.... This is where the Nightmare came in... GREAT PVE ship... I loved that thing... Oh, BTW....... |
HELLBOUNDMAN
Subterranean Space Worm
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 19:19:03 -
[359] - Quote
... Before the Tengu, was the SNI, which is another great PVE boat for those of you who arenGÇÖt awareGǪ AnywayGǪ I built up the skills for the Nightmare, and was ready to sell the Tengu, in order to fully afford the ship and fit, and did it all before the HML nerf hitGǪ I was in good shape. This is when I learned about how easy it was to rip someone off when tradingGǪ Numbers bounced around, I caught him trying to rip me offGǪ However, with the ease of trade scamming, I still got ripped offGǪ Sold the Tengu for about 400 mil, fully fitted, with a very expensive shield booster. I love my life.. But I wasnGÇÖt too upset, because thatGÇÖs all I really needed to buy and fit the nightmare exactly how I wanted.. So, gj on the scam to that guy, but I was happy enough. This seems to be dragging on long enough, so to the end of the story, I eventually ended up back in the Golem, after the bastion module was added and now itGÇÖs the beast I thought I was soooo long ago.
WhatGÇÖs the point of this story? Well, for one, itGÇÖs an entertaining story for those that love carebear tears. Also, this brings to light where all my SP isGǪ.. Now, we can all agree, this is partly my faultGǪ Though, I would argue that A LOT of this SP I have, and no longer use, is due to game mechanics, lack of guidance through game mechanics, lack of knowledge due to game mechanics not providing it, as well as patches/expansions. Due to these factors, I have skills in ships I wouldnGÇÖt have otherwise trained. Gallente ships, hybrid turrets, Tengu, Rook, Basilisk, Orca, and many other things, had I known beforehand. For instance, if the Golem had worked from the start, I wouldnGÇÖt have trained into Tengu and likely many other things, including the Nightmare. That said, i don't feel bad about the Nightmare, as I kinda like having the lasers and the options for Amarr, in the invent I ever PVP.. (love Oracle blapping) I wouldn't have trained the Orca, Basilisk, Rook, and other ships had I known how prevalent they were, and the fact that you either need to be max skill (Orca), they want pilots to have experience to fly (basilisk), or they don't fit into any fleet (rook).
That said, I probably have a minimum of 5mil SP that I wouldn't have, had the game been a bit more balanced and uneducated friendly throughout my lifetime in Eve.
With all in mind, this is why I support SP remapping. Unlike other games, you can't just up and do something else when you get bored. it takes a lot of dedication and investment in order to take a different path in Eve. It's my personal belief that this hinders players retention due to boredom. HOWEVER, there should be some limitations on it..
1) You can't remove just one level of a skill... If you choose to remap SP from a skill, you must remap all points from that skill, and the skill itself is destroyed.. This means, if you want to "hotswap", you're going to be buying a lot of books.
2) This SHOULD NOT cost SP loss. You pay to play Eve, your character is what makes Eve, and SP is what makes your character... Therefore, you paid for that SP... That is your subscription and taking that from the player is no different than if I were to take my money back for all the time I waisted before the Golem was worth flying.
3) While there is the loss of the skill books when remapping, I don't feel that's enough of a cost.. I would agree to it costing a PLEX. I feel one PLEX is enough. It should also NOT be based on PLEX per SP amount, as this is essentially punishment to vets whom have remained dedicated to Eve and thus CCP.
4) while we can debate this, I don't feel the a time limit longer than 1 day is really necessary. If you're losing the skills you remove from, this means you have to locate books and burn through isk. However, having the 1 day time limit means you can't dock up and "hotswap" to counter the meta of your opponent. It's a bit like jump cloning, in that it's a dedicated commitment, but unlike neural remaps, it's not a hindrance on you playing and enjoying the game how you want to, when you want to.
5) It's a game!!! We're supposed to have fun!! If one day I want to have fun mining, the next missioning, and the next PVP'ing; I should be able to have fun however I see fit. This doesn't mean players will stop training SP since they can just swap... You'll be able to be more versatile if you train all those skills up, but for the time being, you'd still be able to enjoy yourself on a daily basis.
6) For the love of all that is holy, remove attributes and attribute implants. We can sit here and argue all day about the "risk vs reward" but in the end, it's not good for player retention to make them choose between getting crucial skills trained up faster, or enjoying the game how they see fit. remember, I'm a carebear, so this isn't effecting me.. I roll around in +5s pretty much all the time, but I bet i'd get myself into podding situations a lot more if I didn't have to worry about losing training time, or losing several 100 mil in isk. Besides, this effects players that everyone wants to see more of. Those players whom are willing to come out to null/low and fight with the masses. When they come out there, they can't afford to be losing +5s all the time, and are likely well behind the curve on skills needed to be where they are. The sooner they get to where they need to be, with the least amount of isk loss possible, the more likely they will be to stick around... Attributes and their implants are a hindrance on that. Not to mention, it goes back to my point of, you pay for Eve, Your character is Eve, and SP is your character; therefore you pay for SP.
Lastly, the changes to clones and what CCP said in regards to why those changes were made is in strong support of attribute changes.
Quote:Skill point acquisition is very much tied to your subscription and the real money you spent on the game
|
HELLBOUNDMAN
Subterranean Space Worm
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 19:38:03 -
[360] - Quote
Oh, and BTW, It's a big NO from me on being able to purchase SP. If you spent the time required earning that SP, you should be able to do what you want with it, but there definitely SHOULD NOT be a way to buy SP. |
|
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
198
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 23:13:35 -
[361] - Quote
HELLBO i'm with you mate! You've melted my feelings and got my tears off. Glad to hear on your honest story. |
MechaJeb Kerman
Karma Core
10
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 19:31:21 -
[362] - Quote
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote: in my (high sec) scanning adventures, I managed to come across the most beautiful sight I had ever seen. I would forever change my direction in Eve, and likely was the cause of my retention, and why I continue to come back to Eve. It was the "Awe" of seeing a GOLEM. It amazing!!!
This reminded me of one time I was ninja salvaging, and warped in on an Armageddon doing some sort of a high level mission. I think that was the first time I had seen a battleship up close, so yeah, I just cloaked and stood there watching in awe as he just blapped the rats one after another. The best part was that he made all the wrecks blue as he warped away. Best day ever.
In regards to the topic, ehhh, If I wanted, and could afford, I'd just go to the bazaar and buy a 140m SP toon. That still wouldn't make me much better at EvE, as no amount of SP can replace IRL skills. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
172
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:37:41 -
[363] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Might as well throw out a "Space Barbies" thread so we can knock out the last super-redundant topic here in F&I as well.
As to the topic I have very rarely heard worse ideas in my whole life, and I'm in the freaking Army for goodness sakes.
We just to need your posts on why people stay in NPC corps for super-redundant play the way I want you to posts. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:19:30 -
[364] - Quote
New players should be able to remap alot more than they can now, something like 1month cooldown on remap the first 6-12months.
This would make new player able to remap for what they think they need, then change the ramapping when they see they made a misstake. Instead we have this 2x remap for new players where they make a bad remap only to change to either the old flat remap or another remap they are done with much faster than the 1year it takes until they can remap again.
Older players that know what they do will not gain a huge benefit since alts can easily train almost all skill they need with the 2 remaps we already have.
Give new players an option to actualy learn what the remaps do and how to use them before they **** up their attributes for 1 year! |
Shova'k
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 05:48:50 -
[365] - Quote
no from me (even tho there are some skills i regret training or ship reworks made useless *looks at orca not needing barge 5 any more*)
u can always buy skill points via character bazaar the fact u have to settle for whats available and what ever terri bad name or if lucky decent or good name. that makes it some what fair
and like others have pointed out every one will just min/max their skills around what ever the op meta of the month is.
i would accept something like allowing people to un-train a skill taking the same amount of time it took to train it not sure if it should replace active training or be alowed along side it that is debatable.
but pay to just reallocate would be just to op they can go buy a char. |
Cyborg Girl86
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 11:26:30 -
[366] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Wow you guys really are suckers for punishment. It is of course, a big NO from me. So far, no one has shown any good reasons why this is needed and what it fixes.
^This^ |
Shimoto
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 15:06:03 -
[367] - Quote
Funny... so many times on this forum I see people saying SP isn't important, you don't need to catch up with the vets in order to beat them, player skill and knowledge of the game > SP etc.
And yet here we have pages of people complaining about buying SP because it would be pay to win! |
evotta
Territorial Hanseatic League
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 17:38:07 -
[368] - Quote
Plex for SP would be definitely great, however we all know that the price of plexes would double in a few days. This would hurt a lot a considerable portion of the playerbase |
CovCyno 2
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 20:58:14 -
[369] - Quote
Skill Points
Lately on EVE's subreddit there has been a ton of talk about newbros and the Sp requirements to "play" the game.
There's a lot of validity to the discussion talking about how for your average new player the required amount of SP is still pretty steep for someone learning the ropes. Lets look at a fairly simple example. The Tristan.
The Tristan is a T1 Gallente Frigate that for the most part is a drone boat but also uses guns as well. For a newbro to hop into a Tristan and get a decent feel for it they'll need to train up Drones. This skill simply lets them use more drones and serves as quite the barrier. A 3 hour wait time is pretty long to someone who has never trained skills before. You'll also need to inject Light Drone op and train that to 1. While both are x1 skills, that's a lot of idle time to try a T1 frig out. Not to mention at this point you're still only using 3 drones, to use your full 5 that'll take another 5 days.
You've also got the ship skill, Small hybrid turrets, and lets not forget about the various support skills you need to have: CPU Management, Weapons Upgrades, Cap Systems Operation, Mechanics, Hull Upgrades, Sig Analysis, Target management, Long range targetting, and the list goes on.
How do we fix this? An extremely simple way is by flat out giving new players room to play the game, and let them worry about training stuff be a secondary concern for a week or two. Give them more skills right off the bat. Let them have some basic ship fitting skills like CPU Management 3/4, Hull upgrades 1, Racial Frig/Destro 3/4, some support skills. A new player coming into the game shouldn't have to wait hours to test out EVE. The learning curve for our game is steep enough, lets not hamstring them by making them wait to try the most basic ships in the game.
Implants and Remaps
On the mantra that was preached when we did away with clones, remaps on a whole provide very little choice. For many players there are so many different skills to train using remaps is less than ideal. If you do use a remap however you're stuck into a plan for over a year. Why are we locking our players into a year long plan that quite honestly provides very little choice. This is all in pursuit of SP. Yes, remaps are voluntary but when you're new to the game you're wanting SP as fast as possible, and with good reason.
How do we fix this? Lets get rid of remaps, sure they're useful but do we really need to force our players into making year long skill plans and sticking to them? Lets get rid of learning implants and give everyone higher base attributes. Give the players the freedom to train what they want at a decent level, ~2500 SP/HR and allow your players to not have their hands tied by a remap. A year is simply too long of a time period for many. Bonus remaps while helpful don't lend themselves to new people very well as there is a lot of different skills you have to train as a new player. Many players aren't going to have the dedication, knowledge, nor SP that allows them to take advantage of the current attribute system.
Learning implants are essentially the same and guess what, they too require a skill to use. All of this is for extremely marginal increases that really only make sense over elongated use. Plenty of math has been done to show how long it takes implants to actually make sense to train Cybernetics to 5. It really isn't advantageous for a lot of people to spend two weeks training a skill, spend hundreds of millions on implants, trying to train up skills a little faster.
With removing remaps and giving higher attributes to players lets get rid of learning implants as well. There isn't any use to have them at this point, but I believe it's still great to have implants like Snakes/Slaves that offer pilots real choice in what they want to fly. By doing this we're still allowing players to choose implant sets they want to use but not forcing them into using learning implants to train skills faster. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
199
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 21:29:01 -
[370] - Quote
I was talking about current skill points remaps hoping that this would allow to accomodate preperly you skill points which are already being trained but no longer in use due to meta change or your game style change. Not buying SP, deff no.
New bros just gained a 4 bonus remaps, so that helpfull at some point. Atributes, yes it's time to go for them. |
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CovCyno 2
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 22:16:55 -
[371] - Quote
evotta wrote:Plex for SP would be definitely great, however we all know that the price of plexes would double in a few days. This would hurt a lot a considerable portion of the playerbase
I really don't think this is a good idea.
You're already paying $15 per month, lets not allow/force people to buy SP because they want to progress. A broken system isn't and shouldn't be fixed by more real money being spent. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2465
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 05:28:34 -
[372] - Quote
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:IF SP could be bought(aka pay to win), I would quit. No questions asked.
Big f'n no from me. Buying ISK is pay to lose, buying SP will be no different.
A Caldari is just a Gallente who begged to have their civil liberties taken away.
|
Bloody2k
SKULL AND B0NES
14
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 09:02:14 -
[373] - Quote
- it is important to be safe cloaked, if you have really go "afk"
- actually there is a huge missuse potential (you can give safe intel, scan and the other dont know your really afk or giving intel, staying for hours or weeks and simply do nothing)
my suggestion is:
- if you stay cloked and do nothing for a while, you activate a 10s-30s timer that freeze your picture (local count, scan ect.)
- the other active player in local see a small icon at your local-picture (freezed/afk)
- if the freezed player will be back, he have to unfreeze to make any actions or see the actual local, scan ect.
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
515
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 10:29:46 -
[374] - Quote
I have removed one reply that was off-topic.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Zarek RedHill
Stringent Method Mordus Angels
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 11:38:46 -
[375] - Quote
Hello,
I wanted to add some weight/perspective, as I am a newbro (~5 months into the game) struggling w/ lack of SP. I've spent a bunch of time into Mining skills that I wish I could get back, and I am currently "blocked" from going on black ops roams with my corp/alliance since I cannot fly those ships for another couple of weeks.
All that said, I am very much against the idea of ISK/PLEX for SP. While it would feel great to be able to "catch up" to older players, I understand the huge issues/problems that might cause.
On the skill implants front -- my personal experience is that I found the whole thing just not fun as it exists presently. I'm presently finding my desire to always have +4 implants on as a disincentive to go to Null Sec (and vice versa). I'm perfectly willing to risk more ISK to go to Null. I'm just worried about the optics of the killmails with all +4 implants on. For better or worse, the guys I like to fly with (and my corp/alliance) -- like most PVP corps -- cares about pvp ISK efficiency. I kind of do as well.
What do feel may make some sense (though I'm not convinced), is to give players a way to accelerate their training based on "being active" in the game (i.e. not ISK/PLEX). It would be nice to reward "active" players SLIGHLY (and with diminishing returns) by being more active, but that's really hard to achieve in a balanced way. The sandbox nature of Eve makes defining "being active" very difficult (is it number of pvp kills? number of missions run? number of sites explored?) -- to the point of being impractical.
So even though I would personally benefit (short term, anyway) from buying SP via ISK/PLEX, it's also a no from me as well.
-Z
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Zarek RedHill
Stringent Method Mordus Angels
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 11:44:55 -
[376] - Quote
Hello,
Sorry for the back-to-back post, but this popped into my head --
I don't know if this has been suggested -- but what about implants that would enable players use to use certain T2 modules (e.g. T2 guns, T2 ammo, etc.) despite them not having the required skills? Maybe with a timer on it so it disappears after a few days?
I wouldn't go so far as making implants to allow players to fly ships they wouldn't otherwise be able board, but maybe a limited number of T2 modules (i'm thinking small & medium guns/missiles, prop modules, remote reppers, and maybe e-war)?
So you're not getting skills for spending ISK. You're just temporarily able to use some T2 modules for which you current'y do not possess the skill requirement.
-Z |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1172
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 11:59:09 -
[377] - Quote
Zarek RedHill wrote:Hello,
Sorry for the back-to-back post, but this popped into my head --
I don't know if this has been suggested -- but what about implants that would enable players use to use certain T2 modules (e.g. T2 guns, T2 ammo, etc.) despite them not having the required skills? Maybe with a timer on it so it disappears after a few days?
I wouldn't go so far as making implants to allow players to fly ships they wouldn't otherwise be able board, but maybe a limited number of T2 modules (i'm thinking small & medium guns/missiles, prop modules, remote reppers, and maybe e-war)?
So you're not getting skills for spending ISK. You're just temporarily able to use some T2 modules for which you current'y do not possess the skill requirement.
-Z
This would boost ganking I think, tech II blasters for using implants? The gankers would snatch your hand off most likely! |
Zarek RedHill
Stringent Method Mordus Angels
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 12:26:35 -
[378] - Quote
Hm, probably. Come to think of it, my suggestion isn't that much different than using faction modules (which for the most part are as good as T2).
Finding a way for newer (active) players to catch up to older (non-active) players is super hard. Would probably have to boil down to an artificial barrier (i.e. new players can do X, but old players cannot), which isn't very sandbox-y.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1172
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 13:00:21 -
[379] - Quote
Zarek RedHill wrote:Hm, probably. Come to think of it, my suggestion isn't that much different than using faction modules (which for the most part are as good as T2).
Finding a way for newer (active) players to catch up to older (non-active) players is super hard. Would probably have to boil down to an artificial barrier (i.e. new players can do X, but old players cannot), which isn't very sandbox-y.
For new players the best thing is to get involved with a good corp who will show you various aspects of the game. This involvement gives the new player satisfaction in helping a corp whilst making ISK and training new skills (hopefully with a bit of useful guidance from corpies!)
This is the real key to SP related issues for new players. The tech II stuff can come later once they have the game skills to make best use of it. |
Teebeutel
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 05:16:47 -
[380] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zarek RedHill wrote:Hm, probably. Come to think of it, my suggestion isn't that much different than using faction modules (which for the most part are as good as T2).
Finding a way for newer (active) players to catch up to older (non-active) players is super hard. Would probably have to boil down to an artificial barrier (i.e. new players can do X, but old players cannot), which isn't very sandbox-y.
For new players the best thing is to get involved with a good corp who will show you various aspects of the game. This involvement gives the new player satisfaction in helping a corp whilst making ISK and training new skills (hopefully with a bit of useful guidance from corpies!) This is the real key to SP related issues for new players. The tech II stuff can come later once they have the game skills to make best use of it. You are basically saying that skillpoints aren't an issue for new players because they shouldn't be, since they could as well be doing something else while getting those skillpoints. "Do something else" is an inherently unhealthy way to look at game design.
While I agree that getting into a corp is the best thing for most new players to do, basing your entire design on the concept that somebody does this one specific thing pidgeonholes the entire game in a way that is radically opposed to the sandbox aspect of EVE - some people just don't like social interaction or want to have the feeling of having accomplished something all on their own. |
|
Zarek RedHill
Stringent Method Mordus Angels
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.01 14:30:14 -
[381] - Quote
Teebeutel wrote: You are basically saying that skillpoints aren't an issue for new players because they shouldn't be, since they could as well be doing something else while getting those skillpoints. "Do something else" is an inherently unhealthy way to look at game design.
Mostly agree -- in my view, skill points should be a progression mechanism that allows players to get stronger over time. I'd say it's generally successful at that. The only part that is unhealthy in terms of game design is when lack of SP prevents players from participating in content (even in a limited capacity).
examples where low SP only reduces effectiveness but the pilot can still participate in content (i.e. good design): - you can't fly high DPS ships, but you can still fly as a tackle/scout/eyes for your fleet. - you have to forego DPS rigs to fit CPU/PG rigs to be able to fit a combat ship.
examples where low SP prevents a player from participating altogether (i.e. unhealthy): - can't participate at all in a stealth bomber fleet b/c you're 2-3 weeks away from being able to fly it (full disclosure - I'm currently in this situation but I'm not overly upset about it) - you're the bottom-of-the-barrel for being picked to go on an Incursion fleet in any of the well-established incursion communities.
This tangential, but I don't like the notion that high-sec-only players get to fly +4 implants with minimal risk, while players who venture into 0.0 generally run +3s at most because of the high risk of getting podded. I don't see a great way to balance that, however -- I'd rather just see attributes removed altogether.
-Z
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1184
|
Posted - 2015.06.01 16:23:47 -
[382] - Quote
Teebeutel wrote: You are basically saying that skillpoints aren't an issue for new players because they shouldn't be, since they could as well be doing something else while getting those skillpoints. "Do something else" is an inherently unhealthy way to look at game design.
....
I'm saying do something else in the game whilst waiting. Most people train say combat skills to run missions. So run the missions whilst the skills train for the higher level missions. Waiting for scanning skills? Then train them whilst running the missions for ISK.
Whatever, I had no problem with finding things to do in the game whilst waiting for skills to train. It doesn't even take that long to train all relevant skills for a career path to level III to try it out. |
Silen Talker
Hi Ho mining
4
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 13:07:03 -
[383] - Quote
Teebeutel wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zarek RedHill wrote:Hm, probably. Come to think of it, my suggestion isn't that much different than using faction modules (which for the most part are as good as T2).
Finding a way for newer (active) players to catch up to older (non-active) players is super hard. Would probably have to boil down to an artificial barrier (i.e. new players can do X, but old players cannot), which isn't very sandbox-y.
For new players the best thing is to get involved with a good corp who will show you various aspects of the game. This involvement gives the new player satisfaction in helping a corp whilst making ISK and training new skills (hopefully with a bit of useful guidance from corpies!) This is the real key to SP related issues for new players. The tech II stuff can come later once they have the game skills to make best use of it. You are basically saying that skillpoints aren't an issue for new players because they shouldn't be, since they could as well be doing something else while getting those skillpoints. "Do something else" is an inherently unhealthy way to look at game design. While I agree that getting into a corp is the best thing for most new players to do, basing your entire design on the concept that somebody does this one specific thing pidgeonholes the entire game in a way that is radically opposed to the sandbox aspect of EVE - some people just don't like social interaction or want to have the feeling of having accomplished something all on their own.
Exactly, I didn't understand what alts were or why I would ever want one (no MMOLG XP) and didn't join a corp for same reason. I do research now (which was so complicated mechanism back then) and trade/distribution to fund it which is what EVE is about for me. If other early mining and combat skills were on alts I would have to decide what to progress, and may do so differently, but I've simply decided to just drop these avenues. Will I ever double-learn them now? - No, gone too far. So this probably reduces the richness of EVE and my long-term life-span. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
196
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 14:13:45 -
[384] - Quote
Zarek RedHill wrote:Teebeutel wrote: You are basically saying that skillpoints aren't an issue for new players because they shouldn't be, since they could as well be doing something else while getting those skillpoints. "Do something else" is an inherently unhealthy way to look at game design.
Mostly agree -- in my view, skill points should be a progression mechanism that allows players to get stronger over time. I'd say it's generally successful at that. The only part that is unhealthy in terms of game design is when lack of SP prevents players from participating in content (even in a limited capacity). examples where low SP only reduces effectiveness but the pilot can still participate in content (i.e. good design): - you can't fly high DPS ships, but you can still fly as a tackle/scout/eyes for your fleet. - you have to forego DPS rigs to fit CPU/PG rigs to be able to fit a combat ship. examples where low SP prevents a player from participating altogether (i.e. unhealthy): - can't participate at all in a stealth bomber fleet b/c you're 2-3 weeks away from being able to fly it (full disclosure - I'm currently in this situation but I'm not overly upset about it) - you're the bottom-of-the-barrel for being picked to go on an Incursion fleet in any of the well-established incursion communities. This tangential, but I don't like the notion that high-sec-only players get to fly +4 implants with minimal risk, while players who venture into 0.0 generally run +3s at most because of the high risk of getting podded. I don't see a great way to balance that, however -- I'd rather just see attributes removed altogether. -Z
scout sites require 3-4 people, run those while waiting to get into a more elitist fleet. be friendly and start your own vanguard/hq group. |
Teebeutel
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
2
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 17:35:52 -
[385] - Quote
Zarek RedHill wrote:Mostly agree -- in my view, skill points should be a progression mechanism that allows players to get stronger over time. I'd say it's generally successful at that. The only part that is unhealthy in terms of game design is when lack of SP prevents players from participating in content (even in a limited capacity). examples where low SP only reduces effectiveness but the pilot can still participate in content (i.e. good design): - you can't fly high DPS ships, but you can still fly as a tackle/scout/eyes for your fleet. - you have to forego DPS rigs to fit CPU/PG rigs to be able to fit a combat ship. examples where low SP prevents a player from participating altogether (i.e. unhealthy): - can't participate at all in a stealth bomber fleet b/c you're 2-3 weeks away from being able to fly it (full disclosure - I'm currently in this situation but I'm not overly upset about it) - you're the bottom-of-the-barrel for being picked to go on an Incursion fleet in any of the well-established incursion communities. This tangential, but I don't like the notion that high-sec-only players get to fly +4 implants with minimal risk, while players who venture into 0.0 generally run +3s at most because of the high risk of getting podded. I don't see a great way to balance that, however -- I'd rather just see attributes removed altogether. -Z As to your suggestion to let new players fly as tackle, scouts or just additional eyes: Flying tackle, I feel, is one of the hardest things in the game to do effectively, since you're usually in a ship that is bound to die if anything so much at looks at it funny, are very reliant on carefully managing your distance to your target and its fleetmates to avoid things that would murder you and need to have some idea about game mechanics and some sort of intuition about when to pounce in for the tackle so you're actually doing your job (and you'll have to fly on your own, instead of following your fleet's anchor like a little duckling). None of these things are easy or 'newbie-friendly' - sure, tackle frigates are cheap, but constantly losing them isnt exactly the most fun thing. Most new players are still unused to the UI and are unlikely to be effective in any of these jobs and even once they've figured out the interface to some degree when scouting most new players are not very effective at giving concise reports and being specific about contacts, do generally not know how to classify ships they encounter other than by calling out their names and dont seem to understand the idea that there are some things your FC doesnt need to know while he is fighting a hundred dudes. By the time most people have figured out some of these things, they'll usually have the skills to be atleast decently effective in a T1 DPS cruiser.
As to your comments about low SP preventing players from participating in content: This mostly a social/meta issue, since it is other players deciding not to let them participate. For incursions specifically taking on a new player with low SP and probably a cheaper ship compared to an old player with loads of SP and lots of money in his ship correlates to a hit in site clear times and thus a decrease in the money they make. It is technically possible to get into an incursion capable ship fairly quickly, the decisions of other players will be the thing standing in your way though. And while bomber fleets take atleast SOME time to train into, stealth bombers are Tech 2 hulls and the training time for those is justified in the increased effectiveness they offer.
I agree with your sentiment towards learning implants, they're kindof similar to the way medical clones used to be in the sense that they keep people from undocking at certain times and Id like to see the whole attribute system reworked or preferably just gone completely.
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I'm saying do something else (snipped)
Teebeutel wrote: You are basically saying that skillpoints aren't an issue for new players because they shouldn't be, since they could as well be doing something else while getting those skillpoints. "Do something else" is an inherently unhealthy way to look at game design.
....
I apologize for the wall of text, please don't burn me at the stake. |
The Newface
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 22:37:23 -
[386] - Quote
Sorry but the moderation on these forums are getting silly, no wonder discussions are moving to other places.
Skill remaps suggestion have nothing to do with skill punt buying for example. Why not just create one thread "future suggestions" since everything thing can be considered duplication if remap = skill point buying.
Silly |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
208
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 23:04:47 -
[387] - Quote
The Newface wrote:Sorry but the moderation on these forums are getting silly, no wonder discussions are moving to other places.
Skill remaps suggestion have nothing to do with skill punt buying for example. Why not just create one thread "future suggestions" since everything thing can be considered duplication if remap = skill point buying.
Silly
You could ask Ezwal to rename his thread into your suggested version. But this wouldn't change the whole thing. |
Vex Aubaris
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 15:55:08 -
[388] - Quote
I think new characters should get a one-off unallocated SP reward for each of the 5 career mission arcs. The reward per career arc could be between 500k to 1 mil SP, for a total of 2.5 mil to 5 mil SP. That would be enough to give the character a solid foundation and feel somewhat useful from the outset without causing any significant balance issues. Established characters could also do the arcs for the reward. Those that have already done them for all 4 factions would simply be given the SP. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
832
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 17:13:25 -
[389] - Quote
All that is going to do is create a multitude of Instant gank, cyno, scamming and scout alts.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
|
Nou Mene
Out of Focus Odin's Call
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 14:41:40 -
[390] - Quote
I think this is mainly a non-issue for older players. Personally i can fly a somewhat wide variety of ships and even if i want to get others with what i have i can get in most content available. The problem comes for newbros, and how opressive is the system for them. I'll think some kind of mechanism should be created for new accounts (i'd love if i could say new players) to be able to get into "med-term" content quickly. Buying SP it would be a pay-to-win button and it would damage the game imo. Transfer/remap SP still only benefits older players.
I'd tried inviting friends to play EVE but is hard to tell them that they need to wait a week to start flying something and that they should just spend that first week reading guides.
I propose two differents ideas: - Give at first subscription period one "special role ship plan" that last a couple months (until you can fly proper ships and fittings) and lets you fly one of this new ships with no skills: A HAC-like ship that performs as ~T2 fitted; Mining ship (same idea); etc.
- Give some buffer SP at the first sub, and after sometime. Enough to jump into something useful at the start. (i'd like to avoid giving everyone a link/falcon/logi alt).
|
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HELLBOUNDMAN
Engineering Without Permits
213
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:10:29 -
[391] - Quote
Nou Mene wrote:I think this is mainly a non-issue for older players. Personally i can fly a somewhat wide variety of ships and even if i want to get others with what i have i can get in most content available. The problem comes for newbros, and how opressive is the system for them. I'll think some kind of mechanism should be created for new accounts (i'd love if i could say new players) to be able to get into "med-term" content quickly. Buying SP it would be a pay-to-win button and it would damage the game imo. Transfer/remap SP still only benefits older players.
I'd tried inviting friends to play EVE but is hard to tell them that they need to wait a week to start flying something and that they should just spend that first week reading guides.
I propose two differents ideas: - Give at first subscription period one "special role ship plan" that last a couple months (until you can fly proper ships and fittings) and lets you fly one of this new ships with no skills: A HAC-like ship that performs as ~T2 fitted; Mining ship (same idea); etc.
- Give some buffer SP at the first sub, and after sometime. Enough to jump into something useful at the start. (i'd like to avoid giving everyone a link/falcon/logi alt).
THB, I believe the only thing that really separates newbros from the rest of us is support skills.
I mean, how awesome was it to climb into your first bs/bc only to find out that you can't fit crap and/or don't have the cap for a decent fit?
Perhaps we should do away with these mandatory baseline support skills?
If we did that, newbros would be able to focus on training to fly ship, as opposed to training to be able to ACTUALLY fly the ship.
|
Kasumi Gotto
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 20:47:07 -
[392] - Quote
I had a character that I made in 2003 where I had been hoping for years for a way to remap skill points. Among the many reasons I sold him was being unable to do this once I settled into role I liked in Eve and which ships I liked after the first 4 years as all kinds of re-balancing took place. My opinions on the chosen types I like haven't really changed since then.
Given that they have since made it where unallocated skill points can happen, and we have attribute modifiers that directly affect SP amount per hour, I can't see why it couldn't just be made so that you could do it within skill groups as navigation skills largely (almost entirely I think) use the same two attributes for training the skill level. Simply make it so when you get rid of the skill or reduce it, it goes into the navigation pool to be used on another navigation skill. That would seem to me to be the fairest way of doing it without breaking too much stuff while at least appeasing those people who would want this feature even if it is in a limited capacity. I can think of one particular spaceship command skill on this character I would like to evenly trade for another in this way, not to mention some missile and gunnery skills. |
Dalto Bane
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
162
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 10:31:25 -
[393] - Quote
I really hope this idea never sees the light of day. I feel that it would take the consequences out of choices in regards to where a player choices to allocate their SP. Also pay to win..
Drops Mic
|
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
235
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 11:03:39 -
[394] - Quote
If you are keeping paying for 30 days license or spend real money to extend subscription you already "paying-to-win" otherwise you should stop doing this.
To kep or remove Attributes it is something tricky case where CCP can't make a finial descition yet.
The more problem come from Skill Ranking which is directly impacting your SP/Hour. From my point of view it is same broken as current Meta levels of modules. |
Sumeragy
Revolution of Chaos Nemesis Enterprises.
8
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 12:19:18 -
[395] - Quote
As far i dont like the idear of paying to get something even for isk. CCP should provide INGAME Content like the Sisters Epic Arc that everyplayer can do and gain Skillpoints for it. CCP already has a way to give players skillpoints why not make an Activ way of earning skills.
You need to get X standing whit the Caldari Navy Corperation to start the "Skill Point gain Missions" and u get points like the R&D agents. Whit those Points from the station u can Buy like the Loli Points skill points for Caldari Race spezific skills. You know Caldaris are main Shield tanks and Rockets users so u can apply your earned points only to the Race Corperation you where flying the missions.
I dont like the Idear oohh i got money so lets win by buying plex and earning skill points. Let the PPL farm the points if they want it. That would help that the plex wont rise even more because ppl will buy more plex for skill points then for skins and everyone could do it even whitout having to invest isk/real money.
As far this Idear goes -1 |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
236
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 13:45:30 -
[396] - Quote
Skills farming sounds same stupid as buy them for iskies. |
Sumeragy
Revolution of Chaos Nemesis Enterprises.
10
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 21:52:47 -
[397] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Skills farming sounds same stupid as buy them for iskies.
You are right i think so too but EvE needs new Blood (players). CCP needs to change the way we earn skills or lessen the time needed to skill. CCP is loosing players all the time that we need to replace the current systems wont atrect new ppl. Well we all know why.
Farming skills can create more contet and bring new player togheter! If it would go my way CCP should shorten the time for skills by half and this alone should help a lot.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1206
|
Posted - 2015.06.15 22:01:07 -
[398] - Quote
Sumeragy wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Skills farming sounds same stupid as buy them for iskies. You are right i think so too but EvE needs new Blood (players). CCP needs to change the way we earn skills or lessen the time needed to skill. CCP is loosing players all the time that we need to replace the current systems wont atrect new ppl. Well we all know why. Farming skills can create more contet and bring new player togheter! If it would go my way CCP should shorten the time for skills by half and this alone should help a lot.
And then people would want it halved again. The current system is fine, players will always come and go. it's the average number that matters. |
Nomee Convex
Criminal Violence
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 01:52:02 -
[399] - Quote
I've been play eve for years seen CCP change Skill points several times for new toons, I personally likes when you could build a toon based on race religion etc etc and gain SP in different areas, not like now all races are same with wasted skills in areas I have no interest owning skills in, I've seen the Learning skills come and go, read many threads how buying SP is a I WIN EVE - seen new players buy old toons and lose a command ship to a noob solo.
CCP has 3 types of Cerebral Accelerator in game, there almost useless for new players due to the exorbitant prices, and the fact new players don't understand the skills and how important they can be.
So Why not make them for existing players also, put a once a year use, like skill remaps. There are 3 types CCP could work with that and develop them for proper use, Just putting it out there. Could be a nice booster once a year. I'm not saying i have all the answer and buy this thread no one really does. BUT saying a flat NO to boosting skills is selfish, eve can support a boost using Cerebral Accelerator it can add more content and open a wider market for these items, might even reduce the price to a realistic value.
I also believe people that think BUYING SP is a I WIN EVE are very ignorant to what eve really is about, but that's your view as this is my view.. |
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
171
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 21:37:33 -
[400] - Quote
buying SPs should be a big NO no matter how many topics it is bad for the game and unfair to people who trained years to get where they are. it is the essence of sandbox game dont ruin it
buying remaps is a NO also but giving one with Xmas gift is fine, if CCP decides to sell remaps i can live with it and perhaps use it someday. buying SPs is a deal breaker for me.
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
|
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Nomee Convex
Criminal Violence
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.16 22:50:45 -
[401] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:buying SPs should be a big NO no matter how many topics it is bad for the game and unfair to people who trained years to get where they are. it is the essence of sandbox game dont ruin it
buying remaps is a NO also but giving one with Xmas gift is fine, if CCP decides to sell remaps i can live with it and perhaps use it someday. buying SPs is a deal breaker for me.
Can I have your stuff when you quit ? |
SandKid
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
189
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 02:08:49 -
[402] - Quote
No.
Much of EvE's culture is built on the hard fact that the sp you have and how it is allocated is an indicator of your dedication to the game as well as your choices in forming your character. At any point in time a player can choose to radically change the direction of that character (from combat training to science, for example).
That change comes with a cost that is acceptable and reasonable: you start at the bottom of that path, like the person who started there at the beginning of their character and now has to start at the beginning to be a combat pilot. Choices in EvE matter and they say a lot about who you are and what you value.
New players do not benefit from even a small sp reallocation option. We all learn in EvE even years after we started. A new player may spread their sp in their first months all over the place, but this doesn't place them at a disadvantage of any sort. "Jack of All Trades" is not at all bad. No skill is useless in EvE and specialization, while quicker, naturally had an opportunity cost of other specializations.
A final point: few other games have the concept of respec at the level it would apply to in EvE. EvE does not have classes...so a respect is a TRUE character wipe. In WoW, a respec only affects key skills - you're still a paladin. In Borderlands, a respec grants radically different bonuses for your class, but if you want to play as a lvl 30 Siren and you're a lvl 30 commando...well, best get rolling on that new character. From the start. Like everyone else.
EvE can't do this. It's an all or nothing system because in EvE you can be ANYTHING (a great part of the game). SP resets will destroy the longevity of the game - you remove the desire to always learn something new as once a set amount of SP is reached you can simply remap until you see what you want to see. All that is left are veteran players in such a system. New players will not have the sense of investment we do and thus won't stick. It won't kill the game, but it will certainly not help its growth either.
On the topic of attribute remaps, I do think a year is a bit long but short term remaps aren't a good idea. I feel reducing the timer to six months would be a happy medium. No remap purchases in this scenario.
If CCP really wants the cash...of course you do...then I would propose remap purchases have a separate timer of six months. Here's me example... -Timer is at Zero, I can use a free remap now -I buy a remap in Nex or on Market and have it in my item hangar where I am docked. --Option 1: I use my remap in character sheet, 1 year CD to next remap --Option 2: I use my purchased remap, 6 month CD to next free remap (so it expends my free remap as well, but I only wait six months)
You can't use a free remap unless timer is at zero (and thus have a free remap). -If this system was implemented, all players would have their timer set to zero and, where applicable, given one free remap. This is only fair to ensure everyone can immediately take advantage of new system. -Free remap is effectively buying a six month timer as opposed to waiting a year. Would cost some sum of Aurum, is an item (like everything else skill related) that could be traded for isk.
I wouldn't call this pay to win or anything of that sort anymore than PLEX is pay to win (which I think it is, but that's another story). CCP gets some income from those who are impatient or make poor calculations, people who are tight-wads (like me) wait their year as normal and don't care. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
238
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 04:25:25 -
[403] - Quote
While agree almost with everything SandKid said i'm nevertheless got different vision on SP system.
The biggest and most expensive asset you have in this game is - TIME. it will help you to develop your plans or it completely destroy them. The longer you here the more knowledge you gain from the game. So your own knowledge (experince) is not equal to the skills learned. You have already paid twice for skills 1) purchased game time subscription 2) bought skill book from Market.
So originally the skill points of your toon turned into the form of the goods which is similar to the assets which you could buy from the market. And as a owner of this goods (assets) you have fuul right to do with them everything you want. But you can't. For some reason CPP decided that this type of asset is "locked" for any kind of "move" & usage. Except this skill point allow you to use other assets in game. Sounds tricky. Cause now Skill Points system is one way ticket. And as you said you have to deal with it or leave it. Which is not right at my opinion.
Back to the 'time" statement. You saying that if someone decided to change profile and wanna be a perfect miner after a years of perfect combat he shoul dstart right from the gorund. it means that this someone should spend another years of training just becasue it is logical and fair. ANd ehre is your main treasure pops up - TIME. Are you ready to do that? Be honest with yourslef. Caus eyou know what it means, there is no any other way in this game other than be a "Jack of All Trades". Char bazar is not the way it's an option which CCP allows to have only because they don't want to touch this "holy cow" SP system.
give you a simple example. I had a perfect Rorqual toon, cost me a few years to train. Hope i shouldn't tell what happen wiht this side of the game, it's dead now. 95% useless. What should i do with that toon? Start to training Combat capital ships? Down from the gorund? I must be mad. Of course some of the core skills has already been trained (navigation, starships command etc.)
I sold this toon for cheap beacause i have no use for it anymore and i don't want to waste my TIME on refocus it. Beeter to go to char bazar as many do, wait as ALL we do.
Honestly still can't find anything criminal and game crushing issues within SP re-map.
|
2D34DLY4U
BACKUPLEGION
23
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 20:19:54 -
[404] - Quote
Attributes are a terrible concept and should be removed together with learning implants that are an even worse problem since they create a (bad for gameplay IMO) link between short term benefit choices (with corresponding risk/reward) and long term character development that should be treated as a different "game" than whatever you are currently doing on a given play session (PVP'ers are gimped, etc).
I like the idea of toying around with different learning speed times based on risk/reward of location (say low sec could have better SP/hour to populate it more, in the same way that previously high level agents did for mission hubs), sadly in the end if its fixed everyone will just clone jump which is also terrible gameplay IMO.
Perhaps someone can figure out a smart way to gamify SP/hour by creating a link with something else other than location (that makes sense!), or create some good way to introduce dynamism in this location scheme so that SP/hour varies and players are forced to roam around to the best locations and not just clone jump.
Buying SP and/or performing in game actions for SP seems a bad idea since you will never "balance" all the possible player activities in the sandbox in terms of the "worthiness" of SP/hour of each, meaning this is best left untouched.
I do like the idea of buying a character from the bazaar and then for a special price biomassing this character and copying all his skills to another one you already have, note overlapping skills would be lost so this means a hefty price would be paid by whoever would use this feature however we avoid the immersion breaking pool mechanisms that while popular make the worthiness of time spent training quite meaningless. Note this mechanism could also be used for name changing since you copy everything from one character to the other so probably better to limit usage like we do with neural remaps. |
lord xavier
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
77
|
Posted - 2015.06.19 19:20:17 -
[405] - Quote
Buying skillpoints: While the idea could be good and geared towards new players. At the same time without being able to determine what account is a new player account or just an alt account. It would just result in being able to make a new "Hic" alt immediately for people with extra real life or in-game money.
Remapping skillpoints: Could be useful as a one time option. This would allow for all those new (and old) players who started out, training a bunch of stuff they will never use on those characters. The people who pvp and have 10mil mining/industrial skills. I think it is absolutely a terrible idea to consider anything outside of a one time feature as it would give the ability to cater to the "Flavor of the Month/Year" ships. If it was based on a large amount of isk/plex. It would just cater to the rich while leaving the poorer out in the cold.
Implants: I think +3, +4 and +5s work just fine. If someone wants to use them, awesome. If they feel that not spending the 50m-500m is a waste of isk because they get podded so much then they get a degraded training time to their skills. When I lived in Null I still used +4 implants. I never could justify +5s, as 500m pods would get expensive, but a +3 or +4 was fine and well within an easy replacement rate through ratting, sites and such.
Combining Character SP: No. I could spend 12 months. Training multiple characters, Train one for Perfect Hybrid, One for Perfect Lasers, One for Perfect Projectiles, One for Perfect Missiles, One for Perfect Amarr, One for Perfect Gallente, One for Perfect Caldari, One for Perfect Minmatar. One for Perfect Armor/Shield, One for Perfect engineering. One for Perfect EWAR. One for Perfect Drones. Then combine them all and in 12 months have as much SP as my main for very minimal SP loss if done correctly. All because I had a lot of out of game money and/or in-game money to plex 10+ training accounts at a time as well as a fee to transfer and combine them.
Also, in the same aspect. I could buy a max industrialist, or a max "All around supercarrier/dread/Carrier character." Combine it with my main. Now instead of having all carriers/dreads to 4, with minimal supercarrier skills. I could have a main who is a maxed out combat, all ships bar titans pilot for what, 30b + Transfer fee? That takes maybe 3 weeks to get. Sure, there would be some wasted skillpoints for the benefit of having four carriers to 5 instead of 1. four dreads to 5 instead of 1. Five capital weapon skills to 5, instead of two. There
It would lower down the amount of training needed for alts. Just used a neutral heavy indictor character to sit in a system AFK waiting for a supercapital to jump in? Oh okay, Biomass and send all the skill points to a brand new, just made three minutes ago character. Bam, character is 1 hour old, sitting in a system with a warp speed rigged onyx ready to catch the next one.
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Skydott
Burnin plasma ball
28
|
Posted - 2015.06.20 18:34:13 -
[406] - Quote
One line: Give ability to recieve unalocated SP when skill queue is inactive at paid accounts (PLEX/card/GTC)
Example. I train gallente titan lvl 5 and i dont know what i want training for now. So i STOP skill learning but SP is going to unalocated SP pool according to my remap/implants . After few month of recieveng free SP (only and only for payed accounts and only for character where it stops) i decide to fly tengu / cerberus / jackdaw, cause new missile guidence computeers reliesed, and i just inject skill , put unalocated SP from pool to skill and i fly all i want. many ppl , i think almost all, asking themeselfs at some point "OMG what to learn next" . Going further! you want to sell character! and well hello! you have a great offer at market for buyers . They will buy and correct skills in way they want. For this characters you may probably increase transfer up to 3 PLEX for service.
No need in selling SP from new eden store. no need to make SP rebalance for PLEX. Time most precious resourse in EVE Online, so let it work on goodnes of all pilots.
Also can be setted limit for free SP pool. like 1-2-3-15mil skill points. I think that will satisfied all request of SP problems
For those who said : different remaps giving different number of SP for different skill brsnches. Yes it is. but we always can ask ccp create formula for SP "exchange" if you have int/memory that will be 1.3:1 if you want to train pers/will skill. Or you just can restrict injecting SP in other/different attribute skill branch.
PS: something like that. |
Evan Giants
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
10
|
Posted - 2015.06.22 14:42:35 -
[407] - Quote
What about for every year of subscription, you get to reallocate 1 million SP? It's like month worth of SP or so.
Just to be clear, you don't have to subscribe for year, you can subscribe monthly and after 12th months, you get 1 million SP reallocation.
This would allow everyone to clean up their mistakes from early on or move SP from unused skills. This would also give extra incentives to do more stuff and stay subscribed. |
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 19:47:58 -
[408] - Quote
I do not see the real problem speaking against selling 1 month worth of skill training for 1 plex. Yes some people maybe able to make instant high SP alts but what is so bad about it?
CCP sells plex, players will still sell chars for isks, new people who started to like the game can now cut some serious time delay and start training for the real goodies much sooner than "wasting" 3 months worth of training to bring the basics, tanking fitting,navigation, drones, etc up to level.
You could limit the amount of SP that can be obtained through plex to the maximum of 3 or 4 months worth per year or so to avoid people instantly spawning super cap pilots. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.25 20:30:09 -
[409] - Quote
2D34DLY4U wrote:Attributes are a terrible concept and should be removed Actually, I think the Attributes are the only part of the skill system worth saving.
Imagine a perfect skill system, in which all characters automatically have "V" in everything. Dump 20 year skill plans, the equipment restrictions, all of it. We've improved the skill system infinitely by simply removing it, but we do have a small issue in gameplay that every character is exactly the same as every other.
Imagine then that we also add a +/- modifier to the benefits of each skill based on your attributes. A skill which normally provides +20% to something could provide +22% if your relevant attribute is high, or +18% if it's your dump stat. Players can still tweak their attributes to help with fitting strategies, but we don't need to deal with the SP cancer any more.
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Yolo
Intergalactic Combined Technologies
164
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 05:47:57 -
[410] - Quote
I would not mind people buying attribute remaps, I mean, its not a instant fix for anything and for some skill categories there simply isnt a years worth of training.
- since 2003, bitches
|
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
896
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 11:49:11 -
[411] - Quote
Skydott wrote:One line: Give ability to recieve unalocated SP when skill queue is inactive at paid accounts (PLEX/card/GTC) I wish I could do this, at least using some low, baseline amount of SP/hour. Could've helped that time when I was unable to update, and therefore login for who knows what reasons making me waste about a month of training or maybe even more.
Then again, I didn't care enough to start making drama of it in support channels, so I guess I deserve that
Less useful now that we have ability to cover entire subscription time with skill queue just in case, and some people will argue that creating pools of "emergency use" SP, even if at lower rate than normally, would be to strong, so I don't know really... |
Horza Tareem
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 08:37:21 -
[412] - Quote
Re-posting this from another thread : Hello.
Let's get some stuff out of the way first. I know this "****" pops on like once a week. I know a "simple search" would show me it is so. I know the copypasta of why "skill reset is bad"
Let's start with the latter:
Quote: Tippia wrote: It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
Then the thread list (which I've read + several more which I haven't listed):
Quote: Thread 1 Thread 2 Thread 3 Thread 4 Thread 5 Thread 6 Thread 7 Thread 8
I find all your answers to those proposals pertinent (most of them in the range of "No." to "No ******* way!"). This is because resetting skill points for everyone is a bad idea and should never happen in EVE (barring some major systems changes) - a statement with which I concur wholeheartedly.
Having said that, I find the new player experience lacking because of this situation. In order for the game to survive, new players are needed and they're up for grabs. Currently the NPE is enhanced by a tutorial system, some tutorial missions, the opportunity system and (to a lesser extent) the mastery/certificates system.
However, the Aura tutorial and the tutorial missions (including the SoE arc) are done in probably a day, if you are new to the game. Say a week if you only play sparingly and you need instructions on how to operate a gui.
The real problem, I find, faces the new player when he tries to go beyond the early PVE part of the game and starts going into player-created content, which is a shifty ************. Doctrine ships, fitting requirements for them, t2 weapons/tank, not even mentioning the personal skill involved in piloting.
Instead of dipping his toe in everything and picking his flavor, a new player is usually stuck in boring/expendable roles - tackler, scout, etc. What if you want to try your hand at higher classes of ships, at some point? You don't even know how if flies, how would you know whether you want to commit 10 days to learning BS 4 (in one faction, mind you!) . What if you don't like projectile weapons? What if you want to use missiles, because you heard they're noob friendly?
What if you (most common, of what I saw) decide to mine because it's chill like that and at some point you end up with useless 1mil sp - I know you have a different interpretation of skill usage - but to a new player that is the difference between staying or going. I know I've been there and decided to go on, but ever time I come up on a bad decision like this it rips a piece of my heart. I'm currently at 12-13mil sp and have some ****** skills that would've best been used somewhere else.
Anyways, I digress.
My proposal is this :
Allow for re-allocation of a maximum of 10mil sp, once per character, Available right after you learned those 10mil sp (not before so you don't mess up). The cost may be whatever (it might even be free). You will select which skills you want to "drain". When a skill reaches 0 sp in this way it is downgraded to the inferior rank (taking into account skill unlocking restrictions) If a skill reaches 0 sp at rank 1 it is deleted (taking into account skill unlocking restrictions) Skill books are not refunded. This can happen in multiple sessions until you reach 10mil sp moved around (you can even move the re-skilled ones if you're so inclined)
I think this will not allow the older characters to re-skill to something overpowered (10 mil sp is not such a big deal). It will be only once a char so can't be abused. (may result in some tickets but I guess it's negligible) It will only be available once you reach 10 mil sp (and that would be the prime time to use it, I guess). It won't be mandatory, so you can save it for later. It won't cause such an impact on character trades, implant market, etc.
Remember before you bash that, while very complex and engaging and as close to real life as a game can be at the moment, EvE is still a game, which can't exist without its players. Also, as a game, it proposes a certain user experience - while some artificial friction can be added to some parts of it (like it happens with the combat UI at the moment), I don't think this change to the SP system will impact it negatively.
Moreover, an influx and retention of new players will improve even the game of the veteran ones.
Don't hate - meditate. |
Terra Chrall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 15:04:06 -
[413] - Quote
I'd be fine with attributes be removed from the skill training system and being used for something else to differentiate characters.
But if not, then I think changing remaps from annual to monthly would be a great way to give players more flexibility and not feel locked into long term decisions unduly.
As far as SP refunds if CCP ever thought it was worth doing, it could be worked into a feature like remaps where every # of days, weeks, months, you can use a skill refund. You choose a skill and can down rank it 1 level refunding those points. Or just leave it how it is and accept that is how the skill points are. They are earned not refunded or reallocated. |
Dersen Lowery
Scanners Live in Vain
1683
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 15:07:36 -
[414] - Quote
Horza Tareem wrote:Quote: Thread 1 Thread 2 Thread 3 Thread 4 Thread 5 Thread 6 Thread 7 Thread 8
That's incredibly informative, thank you.
Horza Tareem wrote:My proposal is this :
Allow for re-allocation of a maximum of 10mil sp, once per character, Available right after you learned those 10mil sp (not before so you don't mess up). The cost may be whatever (it might even be free). You will select which skills you want to "drain". When a skill reaches 0 sp in this way it is downgraded to the inferior rank (taking into account skill unlocking restrictions) If a skill reaches 0 sp at rank 1 it is deleted (taking into account skill unlocking restrictions) Skill books are not refunded. This can happen in multiple sessions until you reach 10mil sp moved around (you can even move the re-skilled ones if you're so inclined)
This is not a bad idea. I did such a bad job of shepherding Dersen to his first 10M SP ("ooh, a new skill! train it to 3!") that I could have used it myself. But when you're new, 10M SP is a long, long way away. I remember when a corpmate urged me to train Salvaging V as soon as possible--this was back when salvage income was actually worth something, so it was decent advice. But OMG 15 day train! That was my first encounter with what skill training in EVE is like once you're out of the tadpole stage, and I did not like it.
But salvaging isn't a critical skill, especially not now. The problem I've encountered repeatedly--both as a genuine new player and as the author of a few alts--is that there is a large brace of skills that you have to train merely so that you can fill the slots on a T1 ship. That's their only direct benefit.
Why?
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
820
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 22:09:37 -
[415] - Quote
ISD reopen my thread it had nothing to do with buying SP or remaps.
RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
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Aminari Talar
Banananah Pasta Syndicate
10
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 03:24:45 -
[416] - Quote
As a game developer, i have always loved eve's skill system. My only Complaint is that it does not have some way to artificially increase speed.
Im not really sure how i'd change this in eve, but in our game we have a more simplistic version of the (eves) skill system, and we use a sort of "on death chance to drop" little globals (like in diablo 3) but they give artificial stock piles, that allow players to "place" skill points much like people do in eve when something gets changed around.
I have always thought of some idea that for example, you can do some research in a station, a new "play style" Called "scientist" that has its own skills, that let you do research, to have "Skill points" to sell via some new item called a "Data sheet" Which allows you to have a sort of skill "group set" (like "electronics" or "engineering") that has points that can be used in a specific field, in place of "real time" research, as a way to artificially speed up research time.
Other then that im pretty happy with eve's skill system.
I do think that eve has some problems that grow over time, but i think for the most part those problems go away with simple time reductions to get ships.
For example, right now ishtars are killing everything, and for a normal player to be competitive he needs to have a hac (unless he has a great set up etc but im speaking in a general case).
So a good counter to nano ishtar problems would be to lower the time to get in one, so more people are in it, and the meta is more balanced.
I find it to be a highly problematic issue that hacs and tier 3 ships dominate the pvp meta so greatly. I miss the days where Recons, and command ships were doing a great job, and i long for days where hics become more viable then dictors.
I think a lot of all of these issues is the massive training time, and i would love to see cruiser 5 get a 15 day reduction. |
Zola Kado
The 1st Regiment HUN Reloaded
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.11 12:01:15 -
[417] - Quote
Skill point remap would be a nice feature. |
Sp3ktr3
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.14 21:39:18 -
[418] - Quote
I would entirely support a one-time free skill allocation per account. You know, to fix that first EvE character that we all ruined. |
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
206
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 05:53:15 -
[419] - Quote
JoeSomebody wrote:GordonO wrote:This is silly.. everyone would then just join the code and gank the hell out of everyone who didn't. Nothing stops you from doing that right now. Yet major opposing alliances exist and have been for a very long time. Quote: Would you buy a car if you were told that every time someone passes you your car will become less fuel efficient ?? That's an invalid comparison, but even if it was, what we have right now is much worse. Those who started earlier will forever be in the lead and have the best cars.
You sir are an idiot...... Those whom started the "race" earlier are of course farther down the road than you. What do expect every one to BRAKE to a STOP every time a new racer begins............thats ludicrous and STUPID.
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
206
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 06:35:30 -
[420] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:I just wish they would get rid of learning implants and trash the attribute system.
Very specifically....why? |
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
206
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 08:19:41 -
[421] - Quote
No, just flat no to the ability of buying SP. Its tantamount to directly buying a ship, gear, or ammo that can be gotten in no other way in the game.....isnt that what the jita riots were mostly about?
as to anything else..... sigh, it is up to the veterans to change....we must be willing to accept the fact of training new players, period. Not just accepting them into groups and giving them meaningless baseless jobs.
remaps should have been reduced a long time ago, as in maybe being allowed every 3-6 months. However, on that note I personally have only used a single remap on day 1. Dropped all my bonus pts from Charisma and put them elsewhere. Problem with remaps for a new player....is there should be interactive tooltip menu that activates when they look at attributes for each one moused over. Provide a general area(s) where that attribute applies to. and they should be maybe a week old before being allowed to use one. that way they have a chance to ask question from a vet.
I also am against SP switching(remapping), it doesnt fit with EvE and is way to easy to abuse....I have have been proactively thinking of the ways I would game and abuse such a system.....and it wouldnt be against vets mostly but those younger than me or vets in a noobish alt. |
RogueHunteer
SteelandFire Phoenix Company Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 07:10:48 -
[422] - Quote
Let's make this simple here, buying and selling skill points don't belong in this game? why because the fact this game is built on training times. With that said I do agree we should be allowed to remap our skill points once a year only! How many you say? start small and go from their. Maybe just one weeks worth of training you can remap theses skills.... |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1489
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 22:18:56 -
[423] - Quote
Whilst I think that this is bad, and once a skill is injected and/or trained you should be stuck with it ...
The only acceptable way for me to address this is to completely unlearn the skill in question.
ie .. not just reset the SP to 0, but the total removal of that skill from the character sheet if someone really wants to play the min-max fotm game ... then they can rebuy the skill when it's back in vogue 3-30 months later
and even this is a bad compromise on the process
NO!!! to skill remapping |
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 10:18:50 -
[424] - Quote
No to SP reallocation!
Yes to limited amounts of SP being able to be purchased by plex, like already mentioned 1 months worth of SP = 1 plex, can only be done a fixed amount of time per year like a maximum of 4 for 1 month for each quarter of a year subscription. or just twice.
Bring back professions! Like in the Eve of old when choosing your heritage and school mattered, giving new players a jump start of basic skills trained in their chosen field of profession would make it a lot more appealing for new players to stay beyond their trial period! I believe the old system had around 800k sp distributed , this could probably be extended to 1.2 mill SP given the new skills that have entered the game! |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
337
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 10:50:58 -
[425] - Quote
No to SP purchase via PLEX or RM
Yes to SP remap!
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4751
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 17:11:08 -
[426] - Quote
Ok, how about this as a compromise?
Rebuy skill points
Create a new skill, specific to eventually being able to re-use the points for other skills.
Points placed in the rebuy skill, inflicts a drain that point for point draws out of an existing skill set. (During this period, the donor skill set becomes diminished step by step, as it's points are withdrawn)
To be clear: 1. The normal SP accumulation is being placed in this Rebuy pool 2. In a draining queue, like the opposite of a normal skill queue, skills can be set to be drained as they had been gained, on a basis with points entering the Rebuy skill from normal accumulation as follows: Skill point lost in old skill: 1 point Skill point gained in Rebuy skill: .5 (Half a point) Basically you get 1 unspent Rebuy SP for every 2 points lost this way.
The rebuy skill, with it's pool of points being drawn from two sources as described above, can then be used to purchase other skills. This would be done at the exchange rate of 1 rebuy points to 1 normal skill point.
Purchase a skill, example.
You set a skill to drain, and after 2,000 points gained normally, (plus the 1,000 gained by skill draining), you are ready to move forward. You have a total of 3,000 points, with a purchasing value of 3,000 points equivalent.
You want a skill that costs 3,000 points. Normally, at this point in regular skilling, you would have gained 2,000 points. But due to the draining of a skill accompanying the Rebuy point accumulation, you lost 2,000 points from the donor skill, translating into 1,000 extra available points to spend.
WHY LOSE HALF THE DRAINED POINTS??
1. You are gaining back points you already spent once. This has a cost. 2. You are bypassing the training time, effectively, by being able to decide where to spend points after the fact. This has a cost.
Thoughts?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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Freelancer117
so you want to be a Hero
306
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 18:09:18 -
[427] - Quote
For a(ny) forum moderator, I'm adding this comment for historical reference and to give context for the forum's topic
Neural remap, PLEX and the way forward:
source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/neural-remap-plex-and-the-way-forward/
Comments: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1419106
Quote:NEURAL REMAP, PLEX AND THE WAY FORWARD 2010-11-22 16:29 By CCP Zulu | Comments
You've probably all seen or heard about the changes that hit the test server last month where you could buy a neural remap (redistribution of attributes) with a PLEX. The ensuing community discussion and a whole heap of Council of Stellar Management discussions we had, both during their visit to CCP earlier in October and, through the magic of the internet, has led us to revisit that specific change and helped us form a holistic strategy for virtual goods sales moving forward.
Phew, that was a long sentence.
There are two things we want to communicate in this blog, in response to all the discussion that's been going on:
First, we've decided to shelve all the changes to neural remaps we had planned. We now have no plans to change things from the way they are currently on Tranquility. No PLEX for remaps, no ISK for remaps, nothing. All code has been reverted, no new code has been written. Nothing will change.
Second, we wanted to explain our thinking a little more. ItGÇÿs always been the intent of CCP to continue diversifying EVE Online's business model and weGÇÿve been looking at various options to do so. This started with the introduction of PLEX, which was an innovative way for players to exchange in-game assets for subscription on a fully player driven marketplace. Since we introduced the PLEX item we've monitored its trading, price and velocity closely. It's now time for us to take the next evolutionary step.
ItGÇÿs clear that itGÇÿs the will of the community to keep virtual goods sales outside the spectrum of what we classify as the "merit economy". That refers to skills gained over time or items that have a gameplay impact. So after discussions, designs, brainstorming and all sorts of processes weGÇÿve come up with a strategy that weGÇÿve already polished with the help of the CSM and would now want to present to the larger community.
Virtual goods sales in EVE Online will evolve through sales of vanity items, first in Incarna but later in-space features. The scope will be (and thereGÇÿs no design has been done around this, weGÇÿre just talking strategy now) that anything that doesnGÇÿt affect gameplay directly can be, potentially, sold for PLEX or other means. Ideas that have come up include Incarna clothing and furniture, logos on spaceships and swapping out portraits. This is by no means a comprehensive list, nor is it a commitment that said items will be available for sale, I mention these as an example for what type of items weGÇÿre thinking about.
ItGÇÿs important to clarify that virtual goods sales isnGÇÿt an arbitrary - or particularly greedy - decision. There is a constantly decreasing number of MMOGÇÿs out there that donGÇÿt incorporate virtual goods sales at some level. - games that aren't responding to this trend are dying out. Diversifying the business model allows us to offer our players the services and features they desire in ways that are conducive to how they wish to spend their entertainment dollars. The result is that we provide a wider range of options to our subscribers which, in turn, leaves us better positioned to react to future seismic shifts in the market.
If we donGÇÿt react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC.
CCP Zulu
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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DTBA Fonulique
Brothers Defiance Inc
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 07:06:20 -
[428] - Quote
I would agree with a remap as soon as you get to 10mil sp.
When I started eve I trained into mining .... I can fly hulk and everything... What a waste of sp it was for me
I enjoy pvp so much more... Make way more isk running wh then mining or afk mining .
Now I am stuck with sp in mining that I don't use. Yes its my own mistake but I never played eve before. So 1 Remap would be bloody nice |
Sarrian Calda
Raging Tapirs Illuminati Confirmed.
13
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 03:59:41 -
[429] - Quote
My 0.02 ISKies:
NO to Purchasing of SP outside of the current skill-learning.
Reason: Because learning is a time-based process, and we should not go Matrix. By allowing this, it would effectively turn EVE into a pay-to-win game as it will allow everything to be achievable with ISK/PLEX. Not enough ISK? Buy PLEX and sell/exchange for ISK. Not enough SP? Buy PLEX and purchase SP. What's the fun in it anymore? Why have we veterans stayed here for so long just to see new players who are filthy rich in real life climb on top of us like nobody's business? And if this is allowed, the players who have been breeding characters for sale will be very, very unhappy.
So, NO to gaining of SP outside of the current mechanism. If it involves some kind of SP booster that boosts the gain of SP over time, I could accept that, as long as that booster is made available to everyone.
However, YES to SP remapping.
But we can't just remap SP anyhow, right? It would defeat the purpose of remapping attributes. If we can remap SP, then there is no point in remapping attributes as we can always map the gained SP away into other skills and continue training that Titan V that will never be V (figuratively speaking).
Or, perhaps we can do it this way: 1) Remap Attributes once a year (current mechanism) 2) Remap SP once a year, but Skills with remapped SP cannot be trained until those remapped SPs are returned to original skills.
i.e. I have Cruise Missile Specialization V. I have Torpedoes V but no torp spec. I want to devote my time to stealth bomber, so I remap the SP in Cruise Spec to Torp Spec.
However, I cannot train Cruise Spec because it was full, and the SP was just temporarily mapped to Torp Spec. I cannot train Torp Spec either because there are remapped SP there. Attempting to improve on something temporary is just gonna make my neurons go haywire.
In a sense, this is like "virtual skill point". I temporarily "loan" these SPs to another skill to allow that skill to utilize those SPs.
This may be represented in a YELLOW bar in the skill level to show remapped skills visually, and a separate indicator to show how much SPs are remapped TO a skill, and a RED bar/indicator to show how much SPs are remapped FROM a skill.
Other restrictions will be up to CCP's discretion, such as whether to allow only complete remapping of skill levels or partial remaps. e.g. If it must be complete remap of skill levels, then a Rank 4 Level 5 skill can only be remapped to another Rank 4 Level 5 skill, and not 4x Rank 1 Level 5 skills.
If partial remaps are allowed, then perhaps it would be prompting the player on how much SP to take away from a trained skill. This skill will become locked from further training, and the SP will be moved to the Remapped SP pool (separate from the Free SP pool that CCP gives due to various reasons). Player can then apply these Remapped SP to other skills, and those skills will become locked from further training until those remapped SPs are removed.
Also, we might want to consider preventing a base skill from getting removed completely if there are upper-tier skills that require it. For example, one cannot remove Frigate V if one still has any one of the T2 frigate skills that require Frigate V, and so on. To remap Frigate V, one has to drop all skills that require Frigate V. However, remapping of all skill points from a skill does not mean to unlearn that skill completely. Again, the SPs are just T-loaned. Hence, as long as the skills are not unlearned, the base requirement for those skills must be intact. Hence, you can never drop Frigate V so long as you have injected any of the T2 frigate skills, etc.
We may also want to consider not allowing players to inject new skills just because they manage to reach the required skill level for the new skills. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
339
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 04:24:35 -
[430] - Quote
I do like your idea abot same Ranking level of skill being remaped into equal level of Rank.
Rank 4 limitatation is not required. Make is simple: Rank1 -> Rank 1 etc etc. |
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Sarrian Calda
Raging Tapirs Illuminati Confirmed.
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 18:09:44 -
[431] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:I do like your idea abot same Ranking level of skill being remaped into equal level of Rank.
Rank 4 limitatation is not required. Make is simple: Rank1 -> Rank 1 etc etc.
Thank you =)
Yes, the Rank 4 example is just an example. Ideally, the Rank restriction should be coupled with the level restriction as well. Meaning, if the SP remap must be a complete transfer between two skills, that means the size of the SP pool to be transferred must be the same.
i.e. a Rank 4 Level 3 skill can only transfer to another Rank 4 Level 3 skill. It cannot transfer to a Rank 4 level 4 skill, or a Rank 3 level 3 skill because there would be insufficient or leftover SP from the initial skill.
This may create a little "minigame" of sorts in the sense that it limits the player to the magnitude of the change possible (so we won't see a sudden surge of supercap pilots or omni-race pilots) unless they already have the skills to be so.
The restriction of remapping pre-requisite skills for learned skills and injecting new skills because of remapped SPs would further limit sudden polymorphing of a pilot's base characteristics.
To give it a scenario, we have a pilot who has undergone intensive training in multiple aspects of combat. But as situation called for, the pilot is primarily a Gallente ship flyer, hence he had his Gallente skills honed to V. But later, the doctrine changed and now he needs to switch to Caldari. Since his Caldari skills are already at IV, it would be easy to just remap the Gallente V skills to Caldari V. Small change, big advantage when you factor in the same possibility available to every pilot in the faction.
To put it in real life human terms, we have someone who is skilled in all sorts of handheld weapons. Swords, Mace, Bow, Crossbow, Rifle, Handgun, Grenades, Shurikens, etc. He is called to the frontline and deployed to be an assault trooper. He focused his practice and skills into using heavy assault weapons, such as rifles, machineguns, grenades, and other assault-type weapons. But later on he got stranded deep in enemy territory and he must rely on stealth to escape. He would then focus his skills on using weapons like bow and arrow, daggers, throwing knives, etc. This could go on for weeks and months, and we all know that a lack of practice generally would dull a person's senses to a certain situation. The experience sticks, but the skill level will not be at its peak due to lack of practice.
So, this is my suggestion if the SP remap would be restricted to complete transfers of SP between learned skills.
For skills that are partially trained, perhaps the SP transfer can still take place, with the remaining un-transferred SP staying in the initial skill. Since the inital skill cannot receive SP transfer from other skills, the idea of "complete skill level transfer" still sticks.
Addendum: While I mentioned that a skill cannot be unlearned, perhaps it may allow a skill to go to zero SP. Not sure if this would impact much, but I don't think we have many level 1 and level 0 skills lying around anyway. |
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Trygalle Trade Guild Letherii Div
37
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 19:08:16 -
[432] - Quote
I'm going to say no to any form of "buying" SP with PLeX/Aurum - as in buying them gives you instant access to a certain number of unallocated skill points)
I am opposed to the idea of people "extracting" skill points from skills (you would need to train them again) and selling those unmapped skill points to the market, it still gives the option to pay to win but this ones more palatable cause of the "time" is still passing. (Opposed)
I wish that Attributes / Implants (and I guess need for remaps) would just go away, it's simply an annoying mechanic.
I will say though I really like the passive skill system, but have my moments some "active" elements could probably be added for the benefit of the game. Many times when I was a new player I wished that this skill could train faster or get bonus XP, because I am actually using X weapons system, or Z ship "actually playing the game". I think that some "active" character progression on TOP of the passive skill system would be a benefit. Sure this opens the door to botting / etc (but that's against the rules :p) .
Some ways to do this would be a Challenge / Achievement / Opportunities type system. HEH you killed 100 things with a Merlin heres 5000 SP towards Caldari Frigate. This incentivizes playing the game for new players (adds a sense of progress <--> this in my opinion is a crucial point that's missing in the early game. Sure the system can be exploited, for example if someone is training an alt and one of the challenges was "Kill another player" - one can use an alt etc. These are holes, and it is not perfect.. but at least the person training the alt is actually playing the game :p . (Maybe even give some bonus to flying in low sec, high sec (in space no cloaky) 1.1x, 1.2x skill training. highsec being 1x)
I now the last 2 paragraphs are not popular, and if it never happens it never happens I just think it would add something interesting dynamics to the game.
Loot Buying service:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
|
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 07:10:59 -
[433] - Quote
Ah yes do NOTHING for the new guys and just cater to the old farts, that is sure the recipe to keep EvE going for years to come.
|
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
91
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 08:13:48 -
[434] - Quote
Just my one cent
- allow all players a SP remap once. - players can't activate it while in space - everything players have related to SP lost would be put on hold (industry, PI etc. )
-then give everyone a very big and happy middle finger.
hugs and kisses.
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
|
Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
26
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 21:06:51 -
[435] - Quote
Here the view of a player who has 150mil SP
First if you break the 80mil (5years in EVE) barrier and you have skilled like most people you can fly 90% of all ships. The first 20mil can be hard if you spend them on lvl5 skills you do not need in the begining I skilled a railgun Rokh after 3month in the game because it was the fleetship of the time and had to go ratting with it because I could not fly anything else. NOT FUN. Over the time I learned that skill time prevents us from making stupid mistakes. If you understand you have limitied skillpoints to spend then you research what you want to spend them on.
If you are 5years in the game and reached the 80mil then have a baisc idea of the game which protects you. Also at 80mil you will run into the question what to skill next because you already have so much. At 150mil I do not know what to skill so I skill everything to lvl 4 then to lvl5 .
If you want a high skillpoint character spend 50bil ISK on the market and you get one. It will not make you a good player and you will waste billions of isk because you donot understand the game.
So I say no the SP buying or remapping because it helps to learn the game. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
761
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 03:24:34 -
[436] - Quote
Once upon as time an aspireing young lady made her ultimate sacrifice in a clone facility in Todaki. Not only did she become immortal but modern technology made it possible for her to steer the most modern generation of warships but also learning with enhanced speed.
From the perspective of a new player with 50.000 skillpoints this always sounds like the more experienced players are talking down to them - "but you already have all the skills.."
Yes we have.
Now think of it this way. Years ago when cellphones still had a dialing pad and five rows to write a text message in we got a round disc which contained the contents of a world that kept us here for all this time.
We started like you with 50.000 skillpoints, we didn't have guides, we didn't know anyone and to top it all of, we couldn't do anything - or could we?
When I became a capsuleer in fall 2006 I didn't have the impression that I couldn't do anything just because of low skillpoints. My friends started in 2004 and were 'ahead' of me. So I thought, well they had to do the very same thing that I am doing right now. Boring? Nope, not in the slightest.
While it was upsetting that 9000 isk didn't buy you much, I did some exploring (not the exploration thing we have now) as in exploring the client. How does that work? Easy, press every button and see what it does
12 Minutes into the game I was investigation that market thing, which I used as source of information of everything since, you know, 9000 isk doesn't buy you much.. So I spend the first three days investigating modules, ships, blueprints, commodities and reading all the information tabs I could get my hands on. Some modules didn't quite make sence to me so I took the liberty to buy one of those and- nothing need to have engineering II. Okay get engineering book and train, while asking my agent in Isaziwa for work. ETA on engineering II is about an hour. So accepting this mission and make those pirates disappear - cool stuff, shouldn't at all be difficult ( it's only a level one agent..).
Into the mission.. Hmm.. Only three of you and my unstoppable two launcher Merlin - haha! I will.. ohoh.. need to go, this isn't going so well. 0% shield, 33% armor - ah warp drive- what is it now?? - "Your capacitor is empty" - Yeah, yeah, whatever just get my outta here!! Pheww, ship rescued. Okay it's only 23AU to the station, no biggy. Capacitor looks almost full, so here we go again. "Warp drive active" - "Your capacitor is empty" - Oh well, next time I make it, only 19AU left.
Finally docked at the station. Okay repair my boat! "your repair bill is 92.456isk" - WHAT? Is this station crazy? Okay, damn you station! Now leta kill those Guristas, they will pay for what they did to my boat..
Two hours later, mission complete. Payout 65.000 isk. Yeay, I rich .
Hmm.. my friends are doing a mining op in Autaris and are in trouble, need to go and help. Seven jumps away. SEVEN.
Almost an hour later I arrive in Autaris. "Come to asteroid belt V - 2." "On my way." Two Guristas attacking my friends?? Ha! Not today Guristas! The Hulk lives to mine another day. "Skill training completed" Awesome, must go to Eitu and pick up this module and fit it.
Dear newbie, this is only one of my adventures I had in my very first week. I was part of something. I was important to players that have been here much longer than I. Skillpoints only help you to fit a boat or research a blueprint but the adventures that come with them are priceless.
No amount of starting skillpoints and no amount of remaps will make up for them. Take the time to make your own adventures.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Will Fireblade
Concentrated Evil The Marmite Collective
7
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 10:04:01 -
[437] - Quote
YES to SP remap with a limit of no more than 256000 SP per month. NO to SP by plex purchase.
Let's hold hands and share our feelings
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 11:59:20 -
[438] - Quote
This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
197
|
Posted - 2015.07.29 14:47:48 -
[439] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference.
this thread is no where near pointless. It is here to keep people from creating tons of other threads about skillpoint which get locked and clutter the forums. |
Messir Astaroth
The Cobrastan Cult Infinity Space.
20
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 13:21:30 -
[440] - Quote
NO. |
|
Ella Echerie
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 16:06:08 -
[441] - Quote
Skill remapping in a persistent world sandbox could have compounding effects, unless it was limited to the degree where it would be pointless. A huge part of EvE is actions and consequences, unlike all the fluffy theme park MMOs where you need to respec to enjoy all the different meaningless activities.
The skill system we have requires patience and can be frustrating but it's also quite rewarding and probably my favorite out of 25yrs of playing rpgs.
Also no to purchasing skill points, pretty much for the same reasons.
I do think newbies should have accelerated training for a certain period of time (maybe a month or few, or up to a certain amount of skillpoints) |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
356
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 18:18:05 -
[442] - Quote
Ella Echerie wrote:Skill remapping in a persistent world sandbox could have compounding effects, unless it was limited to the degree where it would be pointless. A huge part of EvE is actions and consequences, unlike all the fluffy theme park MMOs where you need to respec to enjoy all the different meaningless activities.
The skill system we have requires patience and can be frustrating but it's also quite rewarding and probably my favorite out of 25yrs of playing rpgs.
Also no to purchasing skill points, pretty much for the same reasons.
I do think newbies should have accelerated training for a certain period of time (maybe a month or few, or up to a certain amount of skillpoints)
There is no Butterfly Effect in this game, sorry. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2015.08.03 18:50:34 -
[443] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference. this thread is no where near pointless. It is here to keep people from creating tons of other threads about skillpoint which get locked and clutter the forums.
So basically what your saying is this thread serves as a land fill for trash. Thanks for clarifying. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1502
|
Posted - 2015.08.03 21:44:23 -
[444] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Lady Rift wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference. this thread is no where near pointless. It is here to keep people from creating tons of other threads about skillpoint which get locked and clutter the forums. So basically what your saying is this thread serves as a land fill for trash. Thanks for clarifying.
> /dev/null for SP ideas... |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
201
|
Posted - 2015.08.04 15:46:36 -
[445] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Lady Rift wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference. this thread is no where near pointless. It is here to keep people from creating tons of other threads about skillpoint which get locked and clutter the forums. So basically what your saying is this thread serves as a land fill for trash. Thanks for clarifying.
Its to stop people from breaking the forum rules by spaming the same idea over and over thinking each one needs its own thread. There was a player made collection of SP threads that ISD's would refer people to when they locked a thread cause it was redundant. Now they just have a sticky for it. Many many of the ideas in this thread are all very similar and should all fall under one thread. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2015.08.04 16:54:14 -
[446] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:Lady Rift wrote:Leonardo Adami wrote:This thread is as pointless as this post. CCP isn't going to change or alter the Skill point system. If they do it'll be so minimal that it won't make any difference. this thread is no where near pointless. It is here to keep people from creating tons of other threads about skillpoint which get locked and clutter the forums. So basically what your saying is this thread serves as a land fill for trash. Thanks for clarifying. Its to stop people from breaking the forum rules by spaming the same idea over and over thinking each one needs its own thread. There was a player made collection of SP threads that ISD's would refer people to when they locked a thread cause it was redundant. Now they just have a sticky for it. Many many of the ideas in this thread are all very similar and should all fall under one thread.
I understand exactly what your saying. Trash has different things in it but it's all still trash and this thread is a landfill for the different trash. |
DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
227
|
Posted - 2015.08.06 10:25:27 -
[447] - Quote
Some new methods to obtain Skill Points.
At certain times of the month CCP would offer events that would allow the Pilot to earn extra Skill Points that would could be applied to either a single Skill Type set such as Hybrid Weapons, Shields, Armor, etc. or the Skill Points could applied to any Skill Type.
Earning these extra Skill Points would come in the form of scanning down special Anomalies with the Probe Scanner and locating the container that has to be hacked into to receive the Skill Point Data Disk. Each Anomaly would rank in Skill Point allocation based on its Security Status or where it is located in space. 1.0 Sec Space would receive the lowest amount of Skill Point drops per Anomaly but would have more sites compared to a -.3 system that would have fewer sites but would reward my Skill Points per drop.
Another form would be locating named NPC Pirates in any type of harvestable belt that once destroyed would drop a container with a Skill Point Data Disk. Just like the Anomaly sites each NPC Pirate would be rated at certain Skill Point drop based on the Sec Status of the system.
Collecting Tags from Drifter wrecks could also be used to purchase Skill Point Data Disks from any Amarrian LP Store.
Finding Skill Point Data Disks as Components from Salvaging a ship would also be interesting. If a Pilot is good enough with their Salvage ship, either being a Noctis or Marauder Class ship they could actually extract residual Skill Points from the ship they are salvaging through accessing the ships databanks where the clone stores such information in order to operate the ship.
Basically Skill Points are like Digital Keys that flow between the Pilot and the various ships systems that allow the Pilot to operate the ship systems with the skills in the Pilots mind. At the moment of death some of this information is trapped in the ships network and can be retrieved.
Converting LP into Skill Points would also be a way to earn additional Skill Points. This would be the most expensive method of earning additional Skill Points as each Skill Point would require 2,000 LP to convert. So for 10,000 LP the Pilot would acquire 5 Skill Points.
Its' only trash because you didn't think of the idea. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 16:55:08 -
[448] - Quote
DrysonBennington wrote:Some new methods to obtain Skill Points.
At certain times of the month CCP would offer events that would allow the Pilot to earn extra Skill Points that would could be applied to either a single Skill Type set such as Hybrid Weapons, Shields, Armor, etc. or the Skill Points could applied to any Skill Type.
Earning these extra Skill Points would come in the form of scanning down special Anomalies with the Probe Scanner and locating the container that has to be hacked into to receive the Skill Point Data Disk. Each Anomaly would rank in Skill Point allocation based on its Security Status or where it is located in space. 1.0 Sec Space would receive the lowest amount of Skill Point drops per Anomaly but would have more sites compared to a -.3 system that would have fewer sites but would reward my Skill Points per drop.
Another form would be locating named NPC Pirates in any type of harvestable belt that once destroyed would drop a container with a Skill Point Data Disk. Just like the Anomaly sites each NPC Pirate would be rated at certain Skill Point drop based on the Sec Status of the system.
Collecting Tags from Drifter wrecks could also be used to purchase Skill Point Data Disks from any Amarrian LP Store.
Finding Skill Point Data Disks as Components from Salvaging a ship would also be interesting. If a Pilot is good enough with their Salvage ship, either being a Noctis or Marauder Class ship they could actually extract residual Skill Points from the ship they are salvaging through accessing the ships databanks where the clone stores such information in order to operate the ship.
Basically Skill Points are like Digital Keys that flow between the Pilot and the various ships systems that allow the Pilot to operate the ship systems with the skills in the Pilots mind. At the moment of death some of this information is trapped in the ships network and can be retrieved.
Converting LP into Skill Points would also be a way to earn additional Skill Points. This would be the most expensive method of earning additional Skill Points as each Skill Point would require 2,000 LP to convert. So for 10,000 LP the Pilot would acquire 5 Skill Points.
Its' only trash because you didn't think of the idea.
Feeding the dumpster
|
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
365
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 04:08:36 -
[449] - Quote
@ Leonardo Adami
Plz stop trashing this thread |
Zoltan Cole
Nuclear Warfare Inc. ATOMIC.
1
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 13:24:50 -
[450] - Quote
It's come up that a lot of this discussion would be nullified with one simple fix: splitting up all training through factions.
Inb4 adding SP.
Welcome, Z. |
|
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.08.09 01:37:16 -
[451] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:@ Leonardo Adami
Plz stop trashing this thread
I c wut u did ther
|
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises The Volition Cult
75
|
Posted - 2015.08.12 13:43:54 -
[452] - Quote
I'm curious how many times they have to read NO NO NO NO NO whenever this comes up? Buying remaps is straight pay to win. Earn your keep. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4569
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 12:12:45 -
[453] - Quote
Players should have the opportunity to purchase a pack of 5-million skill points for $50 directly from CCP (no PLEX or AUR). Redemption of these would consume and require one (1) remap, so they would be effectively limited to one per year after you consume all available remaps.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Ruben Shade
Blood Trident Endeavors
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 20:55:33 -
[454] - Quote
Eve is like watching paint dry but you can make it dry 25% faster if you level Drying to 5. By the way Drying 5 takes 30 days to get.
The game is already largely pay to win. I could pull my credit card out right now and have a character with a bazillion sp. How is that not pay to win? I can buy anything in the game with plex how is that not pay to win? Every month you pay a sub that in return gives you a block of sp. Every month you are paying to get a tiny bit stronger and it just happens that some have been paying longer than others. This is the EvE customer loyalty reward program... the longer you keep paying the stronger you get.
I am just saying that this is painful. My eyes are covered in 10mm of glaze. Why am I inflicting pain on myself? The answer is that every other game I checked out was a pos or basically still in beta. You are lucky that there is nothing else worth talking about out there at the moment CPP.
This written from the perspective of a returning player who once possessed two characters. The first with a years worth of sp and the second with six months worth. So the accumulation of sp is likely a lot more painful for me than a new player. I do not remember it being this painful the first time honestly. Joined the game when apoc was king of mining and Miner II had just come out. Left shortly after titans arrived. Good times were had.
Would I buy blocks of sp? Yes. Do I see a problem with it? No. Reason is that in my opinion this game is already 99% pay to win.
Haha I feel a little better already after having a good rant.... wups ranting break forum rules. Your forums are dead btw cause you lock and block everything that might be interesting. |
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Wormbro The Society For Unethical Treatment Of Sleepers
43
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 22:48:30 -
[455] - Quote
Ruben Shade wrote:Eve is like watching paint dry but you can make it dry 25% faster if you level Drying to 5. By the way Drying 5 takes 30 days to get.
The game is already largely pay to win. I could pull my credit card out right now and have a character with a bazillion sp. How is that not pay to win? I can buy anything in the game with plex how is that not pay to win? Every month you pay a sub that in return gives you a block of sp. Every month you are paying to get a tiny bit stronger and it just happens that some have been paying longer than others. This is the EvE customer loyalty reward program... the longer you keep paying the stronger you get.
.
Do you understand how wildly expensive that is? how stupidly inefficient and mindbogglingly bad that actually is? Do you know how much a good subcap character costs in isk?
You will never beat my skill. Its not pay to win because you bought a character. That character has zero assets and you have no idea how to fly it. I will beat you every time because I've been playing this game for 2 years solid experiencing and learning everything about the game because skills and SP are only 50% of the game. The other half comes out of my application and input and knowledge. Thats how regardless if you bought a plex and dank fit the entire garmur with all your precious mods you will never kill my 3m isk cormorant that has no trouble tracking your ship.
EVE isn't pay 2 win like other games are. EVE is pay to play. You buy a plex and you can play with your shiny shitfit ships and lose hundreds of billions worth of garbage all day like the guy Arthur aihaken above your post does. |
h4kun4
Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion
30
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 01:28:56 -
[456] - Quote
i would have nothig against a one time SP remap, i was young and stupid, and failskilled two chars to hell, xD, all dat mining i never use could be gone for good |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 03:26:02 -
[457] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Do fresh characters plausibly feel competent through SP? |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4572
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 04:21:53 -
[458] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:EVE isn't pay 2 win like other games are. EVE is pay to play. You buy a plex and you can play with your shiny shitfit ships and lose hundreds of billions worth of garbage all day like the guy Arthur aihaken above your post does. Some players simply have more time to player than others and earn ISK (including PLEX'ing their subscriptions), and instead of being bitter about it perhaps you should be grateful that there are some players that pay for their subscriptions and occasionally buy PLEX to top up their accounts. It's what affords quite a few numbers of players to play for FREE.
I certainly don't take offence to the fact that there are a lot of players that play for free when I pay for my subscription, and that there are better players. I've never encountered a gaming community quite as vitriolic as this one, though. It has no problem mocking and endlessly belittling players for losing spectacularly - yet it's these same players who only 'keep the lights on' by paying and generating some exciting content in the process. Because if there were never any shiny "windfalls" to be found, I imagine that ganking en masse would become a fairly dismal prospect.
This distorted mentality is the very reason PLEX prices are hovering around a billion ISK. Quite literally, if you do nothing but bite the hand that indirectly feeds you - you're going to eventually go hungry. But don't take it personally. Just remember to turn the lights out when this game winds up with nothing but a bunch of cynical, bitter vets. Because quite honestly, with another year of declining logged-in player numbers - even idiots like you will be willing to entertain ideas you once thought unpalatable.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
222
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 06:48:50 -
[459] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Players should have the opportunity to purchase a pack of 5-million skill points for $50 directly from CCP (no PLEX or AUR). Redemption of these would consume and require one (1) remap, so they would be effectively limited to one per year after you consume all available remaps.
no jita riots?
|
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Wormbro The Society For Unethical Treatment Of Sleepers
43
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 18:19:43 -
[460] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:EVE isn't pay 2 win like other games are. EVE is pay to play. You buy a plex and you can play with your shiny shitfit ships and lose hundreds of billions worth of garbage all day like the guy Arthur aihaken above your post does. Some players simply have more time to player than others and earn ISK (including PLEX'ing their subscriptions), and instead of being bitter about it perhaps you should be grateful that there are some players that pay for their subscriptions and occasionally buy PLEX to top up their accounts. It's what affords quite a few numbers of players to play for FREE.I certainly don't take offence to the fact that there are a lot of players that play for free when I pay for my subscription, and that there are better players. I've never encountered a gaming community quite as vitriolic as this one, though. It has no problem mocking and endlessly belittling players for losing spectacularly - yet it's these same players who only 'keep the lights on' by paying and generating some exciting content in the process. Because if there were never any shiny "windfalls" to be found, I imagine that ganking en masse would become a fairly dismal prospect. This distorted mentality is the very reason PLEX prices are hovering around a billion ISK. Quite literally, if you do nothing but bite the hand that indirectly feeds you - you're going to eventually go hungry. But don't take it personally. Just remember to turn the lights out when this game winds up with nothing but a bunch of cynical, bitter vets. Quite honestly, with another year of declining logged-in player numbers - even idiots like you will be willing to entertain ideas you once thought unpalatable.
Plex is hovering at a billion because plex does more for services introduced by CCP. Demand rises because plex can do more things for them, plex can be converted to isk which can buy aurum which can buy fancy skins. Its not up near a billion because of your garbage "bittervet" theory and some "distorted mentality" farce you wanted to inject. Literally gitgud |
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.08.16 23:32:41 -
[461] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:*Speculation*
|
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4577
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 01:53:08 -
[462] - Quote
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:Plex is hovering at a billion because plex does more for services introduced by CCP. Demand rises because plex can do more things for them, plex can be converted to isk which can buy aurum which can buy fancy skins. PLEX was hovering near a billion ISK long before SKINs were introduced. When it hits two billion ISK per PLEX next year you can continue speculating...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
384
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 02:52:54 -
[463] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:Plex is hovering at a billion because plex does more for services introduced by CCP. Demand rises because plex can do more things for them, plex can be converted to isk which can buy aurum which can buy fancy skins. PLEX was hovering near a billion ISK long before SKINs were introduced...
Prove it or it didn't happen. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4584
|
Posted - 2015.08.17 03:00:42 -
[464] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Prove it or it didn't happen. Check the history.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Chase Devine
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 03:13:01 -
[465] - Quote
Remapping skill point falls into the same bucket as a character respawn after death, no consequence - no risk - no fun. Depending on the way its implemented it takes Eve further along the path of decending into a theme park type game style.
If remapping could be done it would have to remain in the domain of the new character, thats to say you can remap skill point within:
1. The first 3 months of a characters life or 2. Within the first 2-5 million skillpoiints
After some type of constraint as above remapping should be not allowed. Eve has a healthy character bazaar so obtaining a character to perform a role is easy.
Chase |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
491
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 17:02:53 -
[466] - Quote
What I would like to see SP related is to allow us to generate bonus remaps once a year (Could potentially retain the cap at 2). My main arguement for this is that even though you can remap once a year, in practice this almost never happens. It's like going to the jump clone timer, even though it was supposed to be once a day, if it was every 24 hours then its really every other day. Virtually no training plans will last 365 days on the nose, so realistically we don't receive a usable remap once a year.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Xackattack Avianson
You are a Pirate
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 00:53:27 -
[467] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:What I would like to see SP related is to allow us to generate bonus remaps once a year (Could potentially retain the cap at 2). My main arguement for this is that even though you can remap once a year, in practice this almost never happens. It's like going to the jump clone timer, even though it was supposed to be once a day, if it was every 24 hours then its really every other day. Virtually no training plans will last 365 days on the nose, so realistically we don't receive a usable remap once a year.
I agree! |
Faelune
Tous Pour Un
13
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 11:27:36 -
[468] - Quote
Remapping by PLEX even if it's optional it's smoky. At least those who paid for this will feel owned at the end because the efficiency ingame is not granted only by better skills. And the rythm to acquiere each usefullness from skill is slow. it was always to count on your wise, lucidity and life care in order to win or not lose.
Buying or sell SP like if it is an V12 engine to improve and Old Fart kart is also overkill against player ou can't or do not want to throw more IRL wealth for pixels and shame/fame taht could occure after.
I Could may be agree about this buy and sell sp market only if it restrain constrain twice buyer and seller together. For example. You buy skill from a player. you lose your freedom and cloning is a way for slavery. A principle of Vampirism. A contrario if you sell yourself you lose something. A part of freedom or power equal to the amount sold.
Yeah I know also some guy who watch over my shoulder and think: I could do trial alt and suck their SP to death and Construct my main swiftly quickly and with no regrets. I thought about it a little. We Couldn't sell sp point only from skill we possess. Sell Sp point from a scholar mean Concordoken. Buy SP from a scholar mean Concordoken also. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 11:30:14 -
[469] - Quote
Faelune wrote:The efficiency ingame is not granted only by better skills. Something as simple as cap skills can completely define a fit and playstyle. The challenge is if SP is worth reducing interest in the game.
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Faelune
Tous Pour Un
13
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 11:41:08 -
[470] - Quote
Yep because many ships are speciality. The rug we can slip out from their feet is, why to sell and buy SP when some Tech1 role are mostly irrelevant from the start. Logistics for defense, Leadership, interceptor fregate, assault fregate, etc... An AF must cost more because she's better and more comfortable, and more efficient, not beacause she is more difficult to masterise or more fragile. They're not some prototype. |
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Tremain Oldfield
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 03:58:24 -
[471] - Quote
Pilot's Body Resculpt Certificate should come with 1 remap. Creating more demand for that certificate n more money for CCP |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 04:23:35 -
[472] - Quote
Tremain Oldfield wrote:Creating more demand for that certificate n more money for CCP If they want to create demand for PLEX, cut out the middleman and just offer SP for PLEX directly.
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Renfus
Vaults of Valhalla
5
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 09:50:27 -
[473] - Quote
It would be great to be able to remap your skill points.. Maybe once a year.. Or once every couple years.. Even if they penalised you and you had to take a 5% loss in skill points to remap.. A miner could turn PvP or industrialist.. You could clean up your core skills...
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Orion Pax
Yoyodyne corporation
35
|
Posted - 2015.08.27 03:24:37 -
[474] - Quote
Xackattack Avianson wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:What I would like to see SP related is to allow us to generate bonus remaps once a year (Could potentially retain the cap at 2). My main arguement for this is that even though you can remap once a year, in practice this almost never happens. It's like going to the jump clone timer, even though it was supposed to be once a day, if it was every 24 hours then its really every other day. Virtually no training plans will last 365 days on the nose, so realistically we don't receive a usable remap once a year. I agree!
+1 |
DB Jones
The E-Cartel
5
|
Posted - 2015.08.29 05:59:49 -
[475] - Quote
I dont see a problem with turning plex into a remap of attributes, skill training is skill training and I dont see how it would affect any sort of game balance.
But re-allocation of skill points is just a bad, bad idea.
Choices should have consequences so if you train skill A but you wish you had trained skill B -well, too bad.
Buying remaps could even be explained RPishly :P |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
438
|
Posted - 2015.08.29 06:21:56 -
[476] - Quote
DB Jones wrote:I dont see a problem with turning plex into a remap of attributes, skill training is skill training and I dont see how it would affect any sort of game balance.
It would produce a wave of well trained and focused alts. Which we ca't have due to remap limits
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Faelune
Tous Pour Un
13
|
Posted - 2015.08.29 12:26:03 -
[477] - Quote
Plex for remap some skill point is only an esthetical surgery for old cow who don't like scars or buildy boulders who think he lost his way.
from my point of view of old game master with dice and pen. A plex is cheap. 100 PLEX will be better for this job to be done. |
M33P
Eight Legged Freaky Starfighters
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 15:56:36 -
[478] - Quote
Remap every 6 month instead of 12.
Plex for resetting skillpoints. So if you trained the wrong skills, or want to do industry instead of pvp, pve instead of industry. you can focus more to Your playstyle.
These small changes will bring New life to the game imo.
I'm very strongly against buying skillpoints, but i dont mind the ideas about buying a remap for plex. |
Thomas Gallant
Valkyrie Knights Yulai Federation
30
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 19:53:07 -
[479] - Quote
Hmm, it's a tricky thing, buying skill resets I'd be against, but some way to change where you have skill points might be useful if done correctly. Lets say if you gave up a 50,000 skill points in a skill you don't need, you could get say, 25,000 "rest" skill points, meaning that whatever you apply those points too would not have an effect instantly, but instead increase your training speed until you've gotten an extra 25,000 skill points compared to how much you'd get normally training.
Basically you'd be sacrificing skill points for slightly faster training. This would prevent the need to have a high standard cost as "flavor of the month" wouldn't be a thing, it would naturally be a slow way to change where your skill points are. and wouldn't favor the rich over the poor, and would also limit the speed you could swap skill points. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4815
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 20:03:56 -
[480] - Quote
Thomas Gallant wrote:Hmm, it's a tricky thing, buying skill resets I'd be against, but some way to change where you have skill points might be useful if done correctly. Lets say if you gave up a 50,000 skill points in a skill you don't need, you could get say, 25,000 "rest" skill points, meaning that whatever you apply those points too would not have an effect instantly, but instead increase your training speed until you've gotten an extra 25,000 skill points compared to how much you'd get normally training.
Basically you'd be sacrificing skill points for slightly faster training. This would prevent the need to have a high standard cost as "flavor of the month" wouldn't be a thing, it would naturally be a slow way to change where your skill points are. and wouldn't favor the rich over the poor, and would also limit the speed you could swap skill points. How about this?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
157
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 19:44:26 -
[481] - Quote
Don't need remaps, you just need to get rid of attributes. |
Howard Aideron
Pax International
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 10:28:52 -
[482] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Don't need remaps, you just need to get rid of attributes.
This is a good idea. For those that have attribute enhancer implants, since those would have to be removed, provide free SP instead.
So for example, if a pilot is using the +5 Perception Implant, this would be removed and they would be given 1 million SP to use as they see fit. So if they're using +5s for all their slots it would give them a maximum of 5 million SP to distribute. Something like this:
+5s -> 1,000,000 SP per implant +4s -> 900,000 SP per implant +3s -> 800,000 SP per implant +2s -> 700,000 SP per implant +1s -> 600,000 SP per implant |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3321
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 08:19:49 -
[483] - Quote
Howard Aideron wrote:Avvy wrote:Don't need remaps, you just need to get rid of attributes. This is a good idea. For those that have attribute enhancer implants, since those would have to be removed, provide free SP instead. So for example, if a pilot is using the +5 Perception Implant, this would be removed and they would be given 1 million SP to use as they see fit. So if they're using +5s for all their slots it would give them a maximum of 5 million SP to distribute. Something like this: +5s -> 1,000,000 SP per implant +4s -> 900,000 SP per implant +3s -> 800,000 SP per implant +2s -> 700,000 SP per implant +1s -> 600,000 SP per implant
No, because when such a change is announced everyone who could would buy +5s to get that +5 million SP, basically converting ISK into SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Ally Poo
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:28:53 -
[484] - Quote
I like the idea of skillpoint discussion. However I do not want to buy them, with ISK or Cash and keep the current training system.
I made a thread on this along time ago with an idea,
Why not make a system to remove old skills and get part-of the SP allocation of that skill to make unallocated SP's.
Like this: I have many useless indy skills that i don't need nor want. So I want to get rid of all 5 levels of "Advanced Industry" which has a total of 768,000 SP's. Reduce it to 0 or a "Injected Skill" and get lets say 25% of those SP's back (192,000) has unallocated SP's to use on another skill.
This way I get rid of my useless skill and put points into another one. I lost training time overall but not wasted. As the difference of only getting 25% of that training time.
This is not flawless and of course is going to get pounded into the ground by some and sort-of a good idea by others.
the biggest issue with this is the Reverse Engineering of the game itself by CCP to UNDO skills trained.
That's my small idea.
RNEST - Providing one way tickets to the red mist society.
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Howard Aideron
Pax International
15
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 16:31:41 -
[485] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Howard Aideron wrote:Avvy wrote:Don't need remaps, you just need to get rid of attributes. This is a good idea. For those that have attribute enhancer implants, since those would have to be removed, provide free SP instead. So for example, if a pilot is using the +5 Perception Implant, this would be removed and they would be given 1 million SP to use as they see fit. So if they're using +5s for all their slots it would give them a maximum of 5 million SP to distribute. Something like this: +5s -> 1,000,000 SP per implant +4s -> 900,000 SP per implant +3s -> 800,000 SP per implant +2s -> 700,000 SP per implant +1s -> 600,000 SP per implant No, because when such a change is announced everyone who could would buy +5s to get that +5 million SP, basically converting ISK into SP.
Well, do you have a better alternative for those that already have +5 implants plugged in? |
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
1545
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 18:05:00 -
[486] - Quote
Regarding the implants.
You dock, they auto remove from your head and dump into your hanger.
You then sell them to a npc buy order setup by CCP to liquidate them and get your ISk back.
Yaay!!!!
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Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 12:59:31 -
[487] - Quote
A huge part of eve online is training the right skills so I believe you should be able to purchase skill points ....my reasons are I want a black ops and I want it now :p ,really though I see this as I decent income for ccp and the only downside would be vets moaning "pay to win" while sitting in a boosted ,3b cloned pimped frigate |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3329
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 17:34:13 -
[488] - Quote
Howard Aideron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Howard Aideron wrote:Avvy wrote:Don't need remaps, you just need to get rid of attributes. This is a good idea. For those that have attribute enhancer implants, since those would have to be removed, provide free SP instead. So for example, if a pilot is using the +5 Perception Implant, this would be removed and they would be given 1 million SP to use as they see fit. So if they're using +5s for all their slots it would give them a maximum of 5 million SP to distribute. Something like this: +5s -> 1,000,000 SP per implant +4s -> 900,000 SP per implant +3s -> 800,000 SP per implant +2s -> 700,000 SP per implant +1s -> 600,000 SP per implant No, because when such a change is announced everyone who could would buy +5s to get that +5 million SP, basically converting ISK into SP. Well, do you have a better alternative for those that already have +5 implants plugged in?
Refund them their ISK, they are made no worse off if attributes are removed. There simple and does not result in converting ISK into SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3329
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 17:35:07 -
[489] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:A huge part of eve online is training the right skills so I believe you should be able to purchase skill points ....my reasons are I want a black ops and I want it now :p ,really though I see this as I decent income for ccp and the only downside would be vets moaning "pay to win" while sitting in a boosted ,3b cloned pimped frigate
Character bazaar is that way ---->
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 20:55:15 -
[490] - Quote
The char bazar is a completely different thing to what I'm suggesting in the ideas section ....about new ideas and suggestions =ƒÿü
I would like to buy skills for my char or remap +1 I see no drawbacks to this (I don't want a alt etc) |
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
517
|
Posted - 2015.09.13 00:29:31 -
[491] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:The char bazar is a completely different thing to what I'm suggesting in the ideas section ....about new ideas and suggestions =ƒÿü
I would like to buy skills for my char or remap +1 I see no drawbacks to this (I don't want a alt etc) You are mistaken. This thread is a dump, a toilet if you will, in which to flush these recurring ideas about buying sp or remapping sp into the cesspool that will hold them until they are rendered harmless by waste processing and time.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3333
|
Posted - 2015.09.13 06:08:48 -
[492] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:The char bazar is a completely different thing to what I'm suggesting in the ideas section ....about new ideas and suggestions =ƒÿü
I would like to buy skills for my char or remap +1 I see no drawbacks to this (I don't want a alt etc)
No, it is not different. That is where you go to buy a character with more SP than you currently have. Now if it is merely the skills you wish to buy...log in go to the appropriate station and buy said skill book(s) and inject.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Sarrian Calda
Raging Tapirs The Blood Covenant
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 07:51:49 -
[493] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:A huge part of eve online is training the right skills so I believe you should be able to purchase skill points ....my reasons are I want a black ops and I want it now :p ,really though I see this as I decent income for ccp and the only downside would be vets moaning "pay to win" while sitting in a boosted ,3b cloned pimped frigate
One of the challenging aspect of EVE is in its largely-permanent state of matters, where things usually transition forward and not backward.
Things like destructible and consumable objects. You destroy a ship, it is lost permanently. You consume ammo or implant, it is used permanently.
You spend time to learn skills, just like how you would in real life, and you have to decide your path so you will take greater ownership of your character and actually knows what you can or cannot fly/use (I've seen way too many players who don't even know what the skills of their bought chars can do for them).
We are veterans because we have invested YEARS of our life into this. What makes you think that we stay here so long for? And by allowing skill points to be purchasable, we then are saying that our time can be purchased by money/ISK. Seriously? A dollar for time that you do not live? Hell no.
Time is like energy. It cannot be made and cannot be destroyed, only to be converted from one form to another. Being alive gives you time, and you spend time to do something (and presumably some of those things you do keeps you alive so you gain more time to spend).
Remapping skill points is fine because it doesn't add or subtract from the SP pool. A 100m SP pilot is still a 100m SP pilot. He had spent that amount of time to gain those valuable SP. Buying of skill points is a different thing, because it means adding more SP to the SP pool, which in other words is buying time, which is not possible.
And yes, the veterans have earned their every right to sit in a "3b cloned pimped frigate" because TIME.
Thank you.
EDIT: And this is what makes EVE intriguing because of its brutal permanence. It teaches valuable life lessons such as planning and accepting losses - lessons not many can appreciate. Flip this switch and it is no different from the throngs of MMOs out there. |
Suran Parr
Os Terriveis
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 08:34:53 -
[494] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:A huge part of eve online is training the right skills so I believe you should be able to purchase skill points ....my reasons are I want a black ops and I want it now :p ,really though I see this as I decent income for ccp and the only downside would be vets moaning "pay to win" while sitting in a boosted ,3b cloned pimped frigate
Translation:
"I have to train stuff and think about the consequences of my choices!?! I have to live with bad choices! NO WAY! Give me stuff now and screw this consequences bull. Other guys already have the good stuff and I can't be bothered working for it. They have the nice stuff I and want it now and I don't care they spent years getting where they are, thats for FOOLS. Go on CCP take my money (you know you want it) and screw the future of your game so I can be sitting in a boosted ,3b cloned pimped frigate. NOW!" |
Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 12:18:59 -
[495] - Quote
It has already been answered that I could buy a char from the bazar ..other than this I could sub a new account and train for 3 months ,I see this as no differently than buying skill points directly
talking about consequences and stuff and time invested is just wrong ...:as stated before I could buy a char with the skills req the only difference is who gets my money ,a player or ccp .
I love eve ,I have played for many years ...any claims about time or effort I'm not rly listening too ,a brand new player could buy a Titan if they wanted too currently with a Titan pilot ready to fly , does this ruin eve also ?? |
Icarus fall
What Shall We Call It
7
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 13:07:38 -
[496] - Quote
EVE allows everyone to buy skill points already, I don't see why people are claiming different.
There's even various levels, the truly optimized get 2700sp an hour and it scales down to 1550sp/hr. You pay money for those SP. |
Donald Dodixie
Tropical Tax Haven
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 16:55:56 -
[497] - Quote
FWIW: I would gladly pay a PLEX to get rid of the combat skills polluting my character sheet. I don't even want the SP back, just get rid of Astrometrics I, Small Hybrid Turret II etc.
Inb4 condescending nerds telling me how to play the game right (TM). |
Myst3rious En1gma
Myst3rium Logistics and Investments
17
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 17:44:56 -
[498] - Quote
To all the people urinating around the sandbox and chest thumping about P2W and micro-transactions, WAKE UP! It is already a P2W and micro-transaction filled game. Reference the Character Bazaar, Want a max skilled scanning toon so you can start running high level sites tomorrow? Done! 15-18m SP character is yours for 5-6B in 10 hours. Don't have enough isk to afford such a dank toon? Done! Purchase Plex from CCP, sell to your friendly Jita buy order and viola, your wallet just hit the magic number! How is that not P2W and micro-transaction all in one?
I could care less one way or the other on this, personally I would love to see dual training on the same character, so I guess I fall in the "it's ok" camp but the people speaking about the sanctity of the game and such BS need to use a dictionary and some common sense already. Eve is P2W and micro-transaction already, not as much as other mmo's but really is it possible to be "A little bit pregnant?" Don't think it happens much in Eve? How many sell orders for Plex are in the game right now? Every single one of those Plex represents a P2W transaction, not someone who bought them to extend their game time, those are consumed and lost forever. Plex sell orders are you and your corp mates paying to win and accelerate your advantage over other players, circumventing your sanctimonious "No pay to win, no micro-transactions" credo.
Maybe CCP should create a "Career Paths" tutorial for the NPE that reflects the variety of activities available to a player and the requisite skill path to attain them, hell maybe a 24 hour test drive where the player could play as if they had the skills necessary to truly "Be" a scanner/miner/pvp'er whatever. Kind of like SISI with skill points, keep it separate from the game so people's action did not interfere with others. As far as old toons who trained a few million sp in production or whatever before embarking on their permanent career as a pvp'er, let'em pay to right the wrong, let them convert 5% of their sp annually for a fee. On older players who already know how to dunk your ship it won't make a difference when you fight them. On new toons still green at the keyboard, do you really think his ability to use T2 guns over T1 is gonna matter when he cant even kite correctly?
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Sarrian Calda
Raging Tapirs The Blood Covenant
14
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 07:31:02 -
[499] - Quote
Myst3rious En1gma wrote:To all the people urinating around the sandbox and chest thumping about P2W and micro-transactions, WAKE UP! It is already a P2W and micro-transaction filled game. Reference the Character Bazaar, Want a max skilled scanning toon so you can start running high level sites tomorrow? Done! 15-18m SP character is yours for 5-6B in 10 hours. Don't have enough isk to afford such a dank toon? Done! Purchase Plex from CCP, sell to your friendly Jita buy order and viola, your wallet just hit the magic number! How is that not P2W and micro-transaction all in one?
That logic is unsound. You cannot jump to the conclusion without looking at what transpired in between.
You forgot that people spent real cash to get those toons trained up, and it still takes TIME. Nothing in EVE is a direct conversion of money => skill points.
It's money => subscription = time => skill points.
P2W It SEEMS like P2W because the convenience we get now are built on the work and effort of those who are there earlier in the game. Will your logic still stand if EVE just began last month? No. There won't be a character bazaar, because everyone is pretty much just flying *half-baked cruisers or battleships at most with *incompetent weapon skills that can't even clear a Port without warping out.
And, I think many people have a fair share of new, inexperienced players buying highly-skilled toons just to keep losing and dying like a noob. Yes, it may seem fine to be so in other games, but in EVE that's just blatant insult to the character that player just bought.
So, even if you paid to buy a high-skill character, can that ensure victory? No. Because the player lacks the experience. The game is complex because it is, especially thanks to emergent gameplay that most other games lacked environment for. So P2W is not established here. You merely paid to acquire an instrument. This instrument is of instrumental value towards securing victories, but it does not secure victories. Likewise, you would get a car so that you can drive to work, but it does not ensure that you will definitely arrive at your workplace. An inexperienced driver would likely drive slower, lose his way or even get into a traffic incident and never reach his destination.
Micro-transactions What about Micro-transactions? Well, what about it? So far the micro-transactions (I assume Aurum credits is what you're talking about) are limited to aesthetic items such as character costumes and ship SKINs, both of which do not affect gameplay. Are you saying that having micro-transactions imply that it justifies buying skillpoints which directly affects gameplay? Go to character bazaar and get yourself a new char that somebody else spent months and years to train skills for you.
In EVE, my perspective is that Time is the base currency for skills. Yes, you train skills at different rates because of different attribute distribution, but that is within your control. You can either train at 2700 SP/hr or 1550 SP/hr, that is up to you. CCP gave you a choice to acquire up to 1,944,000 SP per 30D of subscription. It is up to you to optimize it, and it is not "buying" skill points. (refer to my conversion formula above)
Breaking this need of Time to acquire skill points could bring a lot more problem than the little convenience it brings.
Some points to note about for acquiring of skill points beyond the current system:
- What currencies will be used in the purchase of skill points?
- Who will be impacted if these currencies are allowed to purchase skill points?
- Would this create a bigger gap between the rich and the poor (IRL and in-game)?
- Who are the original beneficiaries intended?
- Would the resultant beneficiaries be the same as those intended above?
I remain unconvinced that purchasing of skill points is a good option. However, I wholly support remapping of skill points with a time restriction.
Note to CCP: Forum discussions are always limited to a small corner of the entire community. It is qualitative but not quantitative enough to justify the discussions. The discussions here can never truly be represented unless a community-wide poll is taken, perhaps at the character selection screen. That will help give CCP quantitative data about such serious matters concerning the cornerstones of EVE gameplay.
*Edit: Beautified some words. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 12:10:17 -
[500] - Quote
Sarrian Calda wrote:It SEEMS like P2W because the convenience we get now are built on the work and effort of those who are there earlier in the game. Will your logic still stand if EVE just began last month? No. By that logic, it is P2W because those conveniences *are* possible. "Time is money," right? That seems pretty P2W. In fact, it's of little relevance where the power in the game comes from, because it still outperforms those who can't afford it.
If that happens on any level, it's a deterrant for fresh subs. There's plenty of reason that fresh subs are helpful for the game, for both the company and veterans (as is described here).
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 15:53:42 -
[501] - Quote
Sarrian Calda wrote:The discussions here can never truly be represented unless a community-wide poll is taken, perhaps at the character selection screen. That will help give CCP quantitative data about such serious matters concerning the cornerstones of EVE gameplay. Technically, this already happens. Except they do it at the end of your sub, not the beginning.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3342
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 04:02:40 -
[502] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:It has already been answered that I could buy a char from the bazar ..other than this I could sub a new account and train for 3 months ,I see this as no differently than buying skill points directly
talking about consequences and stuff and time invested is just wrong ...:as stated before I could buy a char with the skills req the only difference is who gets my money ,a player or ccp .
I love eve ,I have played for many years ...any claims about time or effort I'm not rly listening too ,a brand new player could buy a Titan if they wanted too currently with a Titan pilot ready to fly , does this ruin eve also ??
You are right that the character bazaar is a form of buying SP, but (you had to know a 'but' was coming)....
The difference is that the character bazaar is not something determined by CCP. The price of "SP" at the character bazaar is determined by a number of parameters that are to a large degree outside the control of CCP. So instead of CCP setting a price/SP the character bazaar does...i.e. the market.
So, it does not follow that you should be able to buy SP for ISK or even PLEX from CCP. Go participate in the market players "control" vs. demanding CCP fulfill your desire for instant gratification.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 02:18:37 -
[503] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: You are right that the character bazaar is a form of buying SP, but (you had to know a 'but' was coming)....
The difference is that the character bazaar is not something determined by CCP. The price of "SP" at the character bazaar is determined by a number of parameters that are to a large degree outside the control of CCP. So instead of CCP setting a price/SP the character bazaar does...i.e. the market.
So, it does not follow that you should be able to buy SP for ISK or even PLEX from CCP. Go participate in the market players "control" vs. demanding CCP fulfill your desire for instant gratification.
Buying a character is effectively buying SP. Doesn't matter who determines the price, still doesn't change that fact.
Buying SP boosts, I actually wonder if that really matters. Personally, I don't think it really does.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3343
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 03:27:42 -
[504] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: You are right that the character bazaar is a form of buying SP, but (you had to know a 'but' was coming)....
The difference is that the character bazaar is not something determined by CCP. The price of "SP" at the character bazaar is determined by a number of parameters that are to a large degree outside the control of CCP. So instead of CCP setting a price/SP the character bazaar does...i.e. the market.
So, it does not follow that you should be able to buy SP for ISK or even PLEX from CCP. Go participate in the market players "control" vs. demanding CCP fulfill your desire for instant gratification.
Buying a character is effectively buying SP. Doesn't matter who determines the price, still doesn't change that fact. Buying SP boosts, I actually wonder if that really matters. Personally, I don't think it really does.
Yes it does matter who determines the price. Very, very much. Price controls have a very, very dubious history. That you slide right over it suggests you are not to be taken at all seriously.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 03:30:52 -
[505] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: You are right that the character bazaar is a form of buying SP, but (you had to know a 'but' was coming)....
The difference is that the character bazaar is not something determined by CCP. The price of "SP" at the character bazaar is determined by a number of parameters that are to a large degree outside the control of CCP. So instead of CCP setting a price/SP the character bazaar does...i.e. the market.
So, it does not follow that you should be able to buy SP for ISK or even PLEX from CCP. Go participate in the market players "control" vs. demanding CCP fulfill your desire for instant gratification.
Buying a character is effectively buying SP. Doesn't matter who determines the price, still doesn't change that fact. Buying SP boosts, I actually wonder if that really matters. Personally, I don't think it really does. Yes it does matter who determines the price. Very, very much. Price controls have a very, very dubious history. That you slide right over it suggests you are not to be taken at all seriously. How does history of SP markets effect sub trends? How does it effect promotion of content? |
Trynity Apol
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 09:23:32 -
[506] - Quote
[Suggestion] New player I think that a great thing, for new player, it's the possibility to use their first skill point as they wish. I mean the possibility for new player to assign 1m sp where they need. This way even a 1 day player can join a small fleet, yeah not maxed but better than now. 1m sp is not that much even 2 m sp i think that nobody would be angry about this change,but surely it would be a great change for new players. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:23:22 -
[507] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: You are right that the character bazaar is a form of buying SP, but (you had to know a 'but' was coming)....
The difference is that the character bazaar is not something determined by CCP. The price of "SP" at the character bazaar is determined by a number of parameters that are to a large degree outside the control of CCP. So instead of CCP setting a price/SP the character bazaar does...i.e. the market.
So, it does not follow that you should be able to buy SP for ISK or even PLEX from CCP. Go participate in the market players "control" vs. demanding CCP fulfill your desire for instant gratification.
Buying a character is effectively buying SP. Doesn't matter who determines the price, still doesn't change that fact. Buying SP boosts, I actually wonder if that really matters. Personally, I don't think it really does. Yes it does matter who determines the price. Very, very much. Price controls have a very, very dubious history. That you slide right over it suggests you are not to be taken at all seriously. How does history of SP markets effect sub trends? How does it effect promotion of content?
It doesn't he's just trying to side step the issue, as I was specifically referring to sp.
Some of the player base here reminds me of Ryzom (was a sandbox, not so much now though) with a long skill tree, some of the old player base liked to feel needed and were overly helpful, overbearingly so. Player don't really want to be completely dependant on other players, consequently they could never keep people. EVE has two advantages though, one you can train offline and secondly there's more things to do in EVE.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3343
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:20:54 -
[508] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: You are right that the character bazaar is a form of buying SP, but (you had to know a 'but' was coming)....
The difference is that the character bazaar is not something determined by CCP. The price of "SP" at the character bazaar is determined by a number of parameters that are to a large degree outside the control of CCP. So instead of CCP setting a price/SP the character bazaar does...i.e. the market.
So, it does not follow that you should be able to buy SP for ISK or even PLEX from CCP. Go participate in the market players "control" vs. demanding CCP fulfill your desire for instant gratification.
Buying a character is effectively buying SP. Doesn't matter who determines the price, still doesn't change that fact. Buying SP boosts, I actually wonder if that really matters. Personally, I don't think it really does. Yes it does matter who determines the price. Very, very much. Price controls have a very, very dubious history. That you slide right over it suggests you are not to be taken at all seriously. How does history of SP markets effect sub trends? How does it effect promotion of content? It doesn't he's just trying to side step the issue, as I was specifically referring to sp. Some of the player base here reminds me of Ryzom (was a sandbox, not so much now though) with a long skill tree, some of the old player base liked to feel needed and were overly helpful, overbearingly so. Player don't really want to be completely dependant on other players, consequently they could never keep people. EVE has two advantages though, firstly you can train offline and secondly there's more things to do in EVE. Edit: One other note worth pointing out with Ryzom, as it was grind levels and because it was such a long skill tree, when numbers dropped and older players had high levels by that time it wasn't easy to find players to level with. Although that's not really an issue in this game as such as there is no grinding of levels.
First off what sub trends? Dror has a looong history of making nearly impenetrably statements. Second you don't know either because it is an empirical question and the only people with the data are CCP and they ain't sharing. How can I side step his question when I was responding to you and he jumped in?
As for SP, you completely failed to grasp the point I was making. Having CCP set a price for SP instead of letting the price be set by the market are very different things.
You whine that you want to buy SP. Fine, character bazaar is that way -------->. The bazaar lets you buy SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:32:53 -
[509] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:First off what sub trends? Dror has a looong history of making nearly impenetrably statements. Second you don't know either because it is an empirical question and the only people with the data are CCP and they ain't sharing. How can I side step his question when I was responding to you and he jumped in. As for SP, you completely failed to grasp the point I was making. Having CCP set a price for SP instead of letting the price be set by the market are very different things. You whine that you want to buy SP. Fine, character bazaar is that way -------->. The bazaar lets you buy SP. Yet, logic can still be discussed. If purchasing characters negatively effects subs, then it's a fine topic; and isn't the base complaint of purchasing SP about not enough content? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3343
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:41:42 -
[510] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:First off what sub trends? Dror has a looong history of making nearly impenetrably statements. Second you don't know either because it is an empirical question and the only people with the data are CCP and they ain't sharing. How can I side step his question when I was responding to you and he jumped in. As for SP, you completely failed to grasp the point I was making. Having CCP set a price for SP instead of letting the price be set by the market are very different things. You whine that you want to buy SP. Fine, character bazaar is that way -------->. The bazaar lets you buy SP. Yet, logic can still be discussed. If purchasing characters negatively effects subs, then it's a fine topic; and isn't the base complaint of purchasing SP about not enough content?
As for your "logic" we have on the one hand the following statements: the character bazaar is a form of buying SP. Now we have this statement: If buying characters negatively effects subs....
So, are we to conclude that buying SP negatively subscriptions? Fine, no to buying SP. Close down the character bazaar, no buying SP from CCP, etc.
I will also say this, I'm impressed at your ability to try link SP in any way possible to subscription rates.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:18:41 -
[511] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:First off what sub trends? Dror has a looong history of making nearly impenetrably statements. Second you don't know either because it is an empirical question and the only people with the data are CCP and they ain't sharing. How can I side step his question when I was responding to you and he jumped in? As for SP, you completely failed to grasp the point I was making. Having CCP set a price for SP instead of letting the price be set by the market are very different things. You whine that you want to buy SP. Fine, character bazaar is that way -------->. The bazaar lets you buy SP.
First off I haven't mentioned sub trends, that doesn't even figure in to what I was discussing.
I know the difference between fixed pricing and pricing based on supply and demand. That also doesn't effect what I was saying.
It's you that failed to understand what was being said.
Your final comment is kind of what I've come to expect on the EVE forums, mainly why I don't bother with them much anymore.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3347
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:24:54 -
[512] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Your final comment is kind of what I've come to expect on the EVE forums, mainly why I don't bother with them much anymore.
Good, then you can stop posting. You wont be missed.
Oh, and for the record, you did write, "Doesn't matter who sets the price." So you're wrong on that count too.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:29:19 -
[513] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Avvy wrote:
Your final comment is kind of what I've come to expect on the EVE forums, mainly why I don't bother with them much anymore.
Good, then you can stop posting. You wont be missed. Oh, and for the record, you did write, "Doesn't matter who sets the price." So you're wrong on that count too.
I certainly wouldn't miss you that's for sure, with an attitude like yours. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:39:53 -
[514] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and for the record, you did write, "Doesn't matter who sets the price." So you're wrong on that count too.
Yeah, I did say that about the price, only thing is you've taken it out of context to what was actually being said. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3347
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 03:07:20 -
[515] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and for the record, you did write, "Doesn't matter who sets the price." So you're wrong on that count too.
Yeah, I did say that about the price, only thing is you've taken it out of context to what was actually being said.
That was exactly the context in which I was talking about the character bazaar and the market there.
There is a method for buying SP in the game, the character bazaar. It is a market where buyers and sellers (players) set the price as opposed to something set by CCP. That is important in that it can help ensure game balance and not let things run completely off the rails.
The effect on trends for subscriptions (I think that is what Dror is asking about) beats the **** out of me. If I had the data I could probably tell you something. I don't so I can't. Neither can Dror, you or anybody else. It would be pretty much speculation and Bravo Sierra.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3347
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 03:18:01 -
[516] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Edit: Avvy wrote:Buying a character is effectively buying SP. Doesn't matter who determines the price, still doesn't change that fact.
Buying SP boosts, I actually wonder if that really matters. Personally, I don't think it really does.
That's what I originally said, I don't mention that I would actually buy sp if it was available. Just because someone discusses something, doesn't mean they want to implement it. But I really doubt if you could buy sp it would have that much effect on the game.
Depends on the price doesn't it?
Suppose CCP decides to sell SP, and people can use PLEX to do so. What are the effects?
First off, the price of PLEX would take another jump, probably a significant one. Did you think of that? Have you made any posts bemoaning the price of PLEX?
Further, if the price of SP is say, 10,000,000 SP/PLEX it could cause a significant problem. There are quite a few players who could afford to buy say, 10 PLEX and inject 100 million SP into 1 or more characters in the game.
Of course, if the price is 1,000,000 SP/PLEX then the same player would only have 10,000,000 SP to inject.
Suppose we have 500 players who could afford 10 or more PLEX, does that sort of SP influx cause a problem in the game? I don't know, but suddenly having 500 players who nearly instantly from starting SP to 100 million probably would have some effects.
Further, those players are predominantly going to be older and more established players, not complete noobs. The complete noob players to get the same effect would have to drop about $200 of RL money.
So, we can rest assured that this kind of change would violate Malcanis' Law as well. Paraphrasing, "Any change claimed to benefit new/younger players will invariably provide a greater benefit to older/more established players."
Somebody wants to buy SP...character bazaar. That is the answer.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2015.09.18 11:44:06 -
[517] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Further, those players are predominantly going to be older and more established players, not complete noobs. The complete noob players to get the same effect would have to drop about $200 of RL money. That's the same as the character bazaar though. That comes back on what's being said, that they're effectively the same. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3355
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 06:29:21 -
[518] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Further, those players are predominantly going to be older and more established players, not complete noobs. The complete noob players to get the same effect would have to drop about $200 of RL money. That's the same as the character bazaar though. That comes back on what's being said, that they're effectively the same.
Yes....which is why some sort of buying SP program is almost invariably going to help/benefit older players who have deep wallets in game. Especially if CCP sets the price and that price is too low. Of course, setting the price higher puts it out of range of the typical new player.
So drop this claim that it will help new players and help promote content.
JFCOAMFPS
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2015.09.19 10:01:08 -
[519] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Further, those players are predominantly going to be older and more established players, not complete noobs. The complete noob players to get the same effect would have to drop about $200 of RL money. That's the same as the character bazaar though. That comes back on what's being said, that they're effectively the same. Yes....which is why some sort of buying SP program is almost invariably going to help/benefit older players who have deep wallets in game. Especially if CCP sets the price and that price is too low. Of course, setting the price higher puts it out of range of the typical new player. So drop this claim that it will help new players and help promote content. JFCOAMFPS That's a complete cop-out and non-argument. In an implementation, it's the company's place what's proper. An option is as simple as allowing SP purchases through X amount of SP. Statistics put fresh internet logons at 690k per day. It's fair that they have a "starter demographic" in the game -- a percentage of those that are in a similar, but great position.
That's how motivation is so relevant: at what point learning the game becomes more prevalent than watching a queue. The etymology of "mercy" is "reward". |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3356
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 21:22:22 -
[520] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Further, those players are predominantly going to be older and more established players, not complete noobs. The complete noob players to get the same effect would have to drop about $200 of RL money. That's the same as the character bazaar though. That comes back on what's being said, that they're effectively the same. Yes....which is why some sort of buying SP program is almost invariably going to help/benefit older players who have deep wallets in game. Especially if CCP sets the price and that price is too low. Of course, setting the price higher puts it out of range of the typical new player. So drop this claim that it will help new players and help promote content. JFCOAMFPS That's a complete cop-out and non-argument. In an implementation, it's the company's place what's proper. An option is as simple as allowing SP purchases through X amount of SP. Statistics put fresh internet logons at 690k per day. It's fair that they have a "starter demographic" in the game -- a percentage of those that are in a similar, but great position. That's how motivation is so relevant: at what point learning the game becomes more prevalent than watching a queue. The etymology of "mercy" is "reward".
Now you are confusing the issue, as you typically do when you paint yourself into a corner. If increasing starting SP helps boost subscriptions (doubtful) and/or helps with player retention....fine. Boost starting SP. Nothing you have written undermines the point that allowing the purchase of SP can be extremely unbalancing if the price is set incorrectly.
Look, here is the problem. SP are essentially infinite. There is no constraint on CCP to limit the amount. Further, the cost to CCP is extremely low. In fact, setting the marginal cost to zero is probably a good approximation. So the potential profits from this, on paper, are essentially infinite except for the fact that there are a finite number of players who have finite amounts of RL money. In other words, from a profit maximizing stand point there is nothing stopping CCP from trying to push as many SP into the game as the market will bear.
Further, there is always the possibility that CCP will do the "math" and note at some point in time that the profits from a one time "hyperinfalation of SP"--i.e. pushing a massive amount of SP into the market at some discounted price and destroying the game and walking away with the profits is the best strategy.
In other words, the problems with allowing the purchase of SP at a price set by CCP is stupid beyond belief because it has many of the same problems associated with the private issuance of fiat currency. No, I am not making this up, go read on the denationalization of money and the works of Friedrich Hayek (Nobel prize winning economist). And Lawrence White who points out the problems with Hayek's position. The problem is there is no way to guarantee the value of fiat currency with this time consistency problem. And in this case since there is just one issuer of SP there is no competition as in Hayek's writings and models.
CCP was either very, very smart or they lucked into the right answer. Setup a market that effectively allows for the trading of SP via characters but does so in a way they (CCP) has very little input (CCP basically enforces the rules of the market and takes a is essentially a Rake to let people play in that market) but other than that the price/SP is set by the market--i.e. supply and demand. Thus creating a stable market in which the stability of the price and quantity of SP is fairly well assured. Stepping outside that mechanism would be incredibly stupid. And that goes for anyone thinking that stepping outside such a market is a good idea.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
239
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 21:33:08 -
[521] - Quote
Id like to remap the 5-6 million sp i wasted in mining which i have never done in 10+ years of EVE...
Been around since the beginning.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 23:20:01 -
[522] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Further, those players are predominantly going to be older and more established players, not complete noobs. The complete noob players to get the same effect would have to drop about $200 of RL money. That's the same as the character bazaar though. That comes back on what's being said, that they're effectively the same. Yes....which is why some sort of buying SP program is almost invariably going to help/benefit older players who have deep wallets in game. Especially if CCP sets the price and that price is too low. Of course, setting the price higher puts it out of range of the typical new player. So drop this claim that it will help new players and help promote content. JFCOAMFPS That's a complete cop-out and non-argument. In an implementation, it's the company's place what's proper. An option is as simple as allowing SP purchases through X amount of SP. Statistics put fresh internet logons at 690k per day. It's fair that they have a "starter demographic" in the game -- a percentage of those that are in a similar, but great position. That's how motivation is so relevant: at what point learning the game becomes more prevalent than watching a queue. The etymology of "mercy" is "reward". Now you are confusing the issue, as you typically do when you paint yourself into a corner. If increasing starting SP helps boost subscriptions (doubtful) and/or helps with player retention....fine. Boost starting SP. Nothing you have written undermines the point that allowing the purchase of SP can be extremely unbalancing if the price is set incorrectly. Look, here is the problem. SP are essentially infinite. There is no constraint on CCP to limit the amount. Further, the cost to CCP is extremely low. In fact, setting the marginal cost to zero is probably a good approximation. So the potential profits from this, on paper, are essentially infinite except for the fact that there are a finite number of players who have finite amounts of RL money. In other words, from a profit maximizing stand point there is nothing stopping CCP from trying to push as many SP into the game as the market will bear. Further, there is always the possibility that CCP will do the "math" and note at some point in time that the profits from a one time "hyperinfalation of SP"--i.e. pushing a massive amount of SP into the market at some discounted price and destroying the game and walking away with the profits is the best strategy. In other words, the problems with allowing the purchase of SP at a price set by CCP is stupid beyond belief because it has many of the same problems associated with the private issuance of fiat currency. No, I am not making this up, go read on the denationalization of money and the works of Friedrich Hayek (Nobel prize winning economist). And Lawrence White who points out the problems with Hayek's position. The problem is there is no way to guarantee the value of fiat currency with this time consistency problem. And in this case since there is just one issuer of SP there is no competition as in Hayek's writings and models. CCP was either very, very smart or they lucked into the right answer. Setup a market that effectively allows for the trading of SP via characters but does so in a way they (CCP) has very little input (CCP basically enforces the rules of the market and takes what is essentially a Rake to let people play in that market) but other than that the price/SP is set by the market--i.e. supply and demand. Thus creating a stable market in which the stability of the price and quantity of SP is fairly well assured. Stepping outside that mechanism would be incredibly stupid. And that goes for anyone thinking that stepping outside such a market is a good idea. Feel free to describe how reward and motivation are irrelevant with the goals of the game's design (or any other inflection of "the issue").
Why, though, would the cost be set beyond 1 month's worth of SP per PLEX price? With that simplicity, how is "the value of privatized money" relevant, as it's a set price with a set item? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3356
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 04:58:00 -
[523] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Now you are confusing the issue, as you typically do when you paint yourself into a corner. If increasing starting SP helps boost subscriptions (doubtful) and/or helps with player retention....fine. Boost starting SP. Nothing you have written undermines the point that allowing the purchase of SP can be extremely unbalancing if the price is set incorrectly.
Look, here is the problem. SP are essentially infinite. There is no constraint on CCP to limit the amount. Further, the cost to CCP is extremely low. In fact, setting the marginal cost to zero is probably a good approximation. So the potential profits from this, on paper, are essentially infinite except for the fact that there are a finite number of players who have finite amounts of RL money. In other words, from a profit maximizing stand point there is nothing stopping CCP from trying to push as many SP into the game as the market will bear.
Further, there is always the possibility that CCP will do the "math" and note at some point in time that the profits from a one time "hyperinfalation of SP"--i.e. pushing a massive amount of SP into the market at some discounted price and destroying the game and walking away with the profits is the best strategy.
In other words, the problems with allowing the purchase of SP at a price set by CCP is stupid beyond belief because it has many of the same problems associated with the private issuance of fiat currency. No, I am not making this up, go read on the denationalization of money and the works of Friedrich Hayek (Nobel prize winning economist). And Lawrence White who points out the problems with Hayek's position. The problem is there is no way to guarantee the value of fiat currency with this time consistency problem. And in this case since there is just one issuer of SP there is no competition as in Hayek's writings and models.
CCP was either very, very smart or they lucked into the right answer. Setup a market that effectively allows for the trading of SP via characters but does so in a way they (CCP) has very little input (CCP basically enforces the rules of the market and takes what is essentially a Rake to let people play in that market) but other than that the price/SP is set by the market--i.e. supply and demand. Thus creating a stable market in which the stability of the price and quantity of SP is fairly well assured. Stepping outside that mechanism would be incredibly stupid. And that goes for anyone thinking that stepping outside such a market is a good idea.
Feel free to describe how reward and motivation are irrelevant with the goals of the game's design (or any other inflection of "the issue"). Why, though, would the cost be set beyond 1 month's worth of SP per PLEX price? With that simplicity, how is "the value of privatized money" relevant, as it's a set price with a set item?
Ok, so we set the price at around 1,332,000 SP/PLEX or about a cost of 1 SP/750 ISK. Great. And why would CCP do this when I can go to the character bazaar and get a much, much better deal in terms of SP/ISK?
Set the SP/ISK price to high and CCP doesn't sell any SP--i.e. they make no extra money. Set it to low and you risk destroying the character bazaar which is potentially unbalancing. And since the SP/ISK varies depending on the context (i.e. what kind of character you are trying to sell and even changes in game mechanics) it is something that is pretty much impossible to "get right".
You are advocating that CCP can basically balance things on a knife's edge. It is stupid. Stop posting stupid stuff.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
878
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 07:09:56 -
[524] - Quote
And what happens to the game when the 'norm' is a character with all combat relevant skills at 5? You will quickly find character builds and their prices, everyone who wants to participate in any fleet setup will be required to have the right build, and the game dissolves into pay to participate.
Each new expansion will correct balance problems uncovered in the last, a new profile will become the 'best' and you will have to purchase the new skill set or be frozen out, again. Over and over unless you buy the ultimate character, a guy with all skills at 5.
This game is not based on levels, it's based on choices. Skillpoints are the one immutable point of decision in the game, the *only* thing with real value. Allowing us to simply throw a $20 at ccp and instapoof a months sp on the character immediately devalues the choices we make now to nothing. All the time I have put in organically growing my character to my evolving needs in game can be simply purchased outright for a little over $1600, except dedicated exactly to a hyper efficient build dedicated to killing everyone just like me who has worn many hats over those years of play. A couple plex after that they have enough money to buy the perfect ship to go with the perfect build, and that will become the norm, with anything less being 'useless'. That's just how videogame culture works. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
878
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 07:10:51 -
[525] - Quote
double post. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 07:47:06 -
[526] - Quote
Trynity Apol wrote:1m sp is not that much even 2 m sp i think that nobody would be angry about this change The plethora of very angry replies in this very thread should be proof enough that's not true.
And for your point of assigning skill points - you don't want to hand a 20 minute old character 2M unallocated SP. They are going to screw themselves up badly, and usually not realize it for several weeks.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 13:05:36 -
[527] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Ok, so we set the price at around 1,332,000 SP/PLEX or about a cost of 1 SP/750 ISK. Great. And why would CCP do this when I can go to the character bazaar and get a much, much better deal in terms of SP/ISK? Technically, because it's not $500, which a lot of the gaming demographic has no place for, nor plausibility for saving that much.
Teckos Pech wrote:It is something that is pretty much impossible to "get right". This is completely fabricated.
Mike Voidstar wrote:And what happens to the game when the 'norm' is a character with all combat relevant skills at 5? You will quickly find character builds and their prices, everyone who wants to participate in any fleet setup will be required to have the right build, and the game dissolves into pay to participate.
Each new expansion will correct balance problems uncovered in the last, a new profile will become the 'best' and you will have to purchase the new skill set or be frozen out, again. Over and over unless you buy the ultimate character, a guy with all skills at 5.
This game is not based on levels, it's based on choices. Skillpoints are the one immutable point of decision in the game, the *only* thing with real value. Allowing us to simply throw a $20 at ccp and instapoof a months sp on the character immediately devalues the choices we make now to nothing. All the time I have put in organically growing my character to my evolving needs in game can be simply purchased outright for a little over $1600, except dedicated exactly to a hyper efficient build dedicated to killing everyone just like me who has worn many hats over those years of play. A couple plex after that they have enough money to buy the perfect ship to go with the perfect build, and that will become the norm, with anything less being 'useless'. That's just how videogame culture works. If SP is so problematic, then it's already an issue. On value, there are very valid points about how little value is perceived in a sub game that provides minimal amounts of its content (the trend of criticism is about paying a sub for the whole game including cosmetics), but also the following:
Aerasia wrote:That's like saying there's an opportunity cost between having breakfast, or taking a **** in the morning.
I'm going to do both - I just pick which order.
EVE skills are largely the same. There are a few ways to completely ignore some mechanics, yes. I can choose to go full combat and put nothing into trading (can't entirely do that the other way around, as you start with some combat skills). But take trading. Once you have Industrial I, Trading I and Contracting I, that's largely going to be what you need mechanically to be a market trader. You certainly won't be a titan of industry or anything, but from there on out all the skills are "What I can do now, only more so."
So that's not really an 'opportunity cost', considering your options are to become better at what you've chosen to do... or become better at what you've chosen to do in a different order.
..Follow that thread if you like, but I'm not going to argue the existence of infinitesimal opportunity cost in choosing between "Adv. Industry I" vs. "Mass Production II" for the next spot in my skill queue. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
885
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 15:23:22 -
[528] - Quote
SP are problematic because it's the only point of value in the game. More ISK than can be easily spent can be yours for the cash to buy a plex and put it on the market. The price of everything else is fairly stable. Unless you just purchased a cap pilot from the character bazaar, or enjoy detonating mauraders for fun, you are set for quite some time.
Similarly, faction/officer/deadspace loot is expensive, but not really valuable. If it's in space it can be turned to pixel dust without warning. Ships, Implants, Modules.... All of it is bought with casual to obtain ISK, and all of it without real value because of it.
The only thing of real value here is time. You can't blow it up, cheat it, scam it, or collect and spend it all at once on a whim. Devalue that, and you collapse the game as a whole. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 15:27:48 -
[529] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:The only thing of real value here is time. You can't blow it up, cheat it, scam it, or collect and spend it all at once on a whim. Devalue that, and you collapse the game as a whole. That's the whole argument for how SP effects subscriptions / motivation. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
885
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 15:50:27 -
[530] - Quote
Yes. You can shear a sheep many times, but you can only slaughter it once.
Keeping the game going generates New players and continuing long term cash.
On an individual basis it does not matter if they get their $15 once a month for 9 years, or $1600 in one payment. However, if they want my money, your money, Teckos's money, etc... They have to keep it going and keep it interesting to new generations of players.
If I had spent a few hundred dollars 9 years ago my son might never have even heard of the game. Now he plays it with me. Same for many of my friends, though not many play anymore.
You need value to get investment. Investment is where the real profits are. Take away the value in the game and you will lose the value of the game itself. |
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:21:43 -
[531] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:The only thing of real value here is time. You can't blow it up, cheat it, scam it, or collect and spend it all at once on a whim. Devalue that, and you collapse the game as a whole. Are you actually trying to argue that the main thing keeping people playing EVE is not wanting to lose the investment they've made over months/years of skill grinding? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
886
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:56:47 -
[532] - Quote
Not at all.
I am saying that it's what provides the basic value in the idea that choices matter. People play these kinds of game to progress with a character. Eve lacks many of the traditional growth measurements. We don't have character levels, we don't have end game zones or much in the way of uber loot.
If character advancement comes from instantly plopping down a bit of cash, then the one measure of true value loses all meaning. Rather than taking pride in the achievement of putting your marauder in space the first time it becomes the expected norm of anyone fielding a battleship.
Sure, simple time spent isn't a high impact measure of effort, but in the context of MMOs it is the only one really worth mentioning. Especially in EVE which prides itself on pure dickbaggery and douchenozzling. Either because of, or in spite of, the challenges and horrors of the game you are still here having your fun when many others fell to grief or ennui.
In that respect the calls for a way to buy SP are really calls to be able to buy the achievements of others without putting the time in to earn them. In context of other games it's like buying levels and exotic gear rolled into one heinous act of destructive catering. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 19:56:28 -
[533] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Trynity Apol wrote:1m sp is not that much even 2 m sp i think that nobody would be angry about this change The plethora of very angry replies in this very thread should be proof enough that's not true. And for your point of assigning skill points - you don't want to hand a 20 minute old character 2M unallocated SP. They are going to screw themselves up badly, and usually not realize it for several weeks.
Look, go ahead and sell 1 million SP/PLEX. IDGAF. But anyone would be a complete blithering moron to use it over the character bazaar. 1 million SP/PLEX translates into about 1,200 ISK/SP. In the character bazaar you almost never, ever see a price like that. Not even close. You might, once in a very, very great while, see some characters go for 500 ISK/SP, but that is rare. Typically the price is around 357 ISK/SP. That translates into about 3.431 million SP/PLEX.
Now one might be tempted to set the SP/PLEX price at that level...but here is the thing about markets...the price is rarely a constant. A change in supply or demand or both can cause the price to go up, down, or remain the same. And we have two markets here, not one. For example, what if after this change the price of PLEX goes up to 1.5 billion? Now the price of SP in terms of ISK is back up over 500 ISK/SP. Trying to predict these kinds of things is very, very hard (hint, if it were easy we'd all be billionaires in real life).
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:22:57 -
[534] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Ok, so we set the price at around 1,332,000 SP/PLEX or about a cost of 1 SP/750 ISK. Great. And why would CCP do this when I can go to the character bazaar and get a much, much better deal in terms of SP/ISK? Technically, because it's not $500, which a lot of the gaming demographic has no place for, nor plausibility for saving that much. Teckos Pech wrote:It is something that is pretty much impossible to "get right". This is completely fabricated.
What? What does $500 have to do with anything I wrote?
And no, predicting future prices with considerable accuracy is not easy. And I'm not talking about a prediction "the price will be higher, or above X", but predicting the price to ensure that supply and demand are roughly in alignment.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:37:17 -
[535] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Not at all. Really? Because you spend the rest of your post explaining that I was right.
Arguing that the total time spent subscribed is a character's measure of worth, and removing that link would "collapse the game" is wrong, and if you don't want to argue that anymore I'm happy to have changed your mind. But saying "I'm not saying the things I'm saying both before and after this statement" is silly.
Mike Voidstar wrote:be able to buy the achievements of others Like this. What achievements? The biggest hurdle to SP in EVE is not letting your sub lapse when you get a new credit card.
If somebody says "I've got X many SP", that's amount is directly related to time subbed, which is in turn convertible to money given to CCP. Whether the cash is spent on a 2 year session of skill-queue online, going to the character bazzar and buy a prebuilt character, or convincing CCP to buy SP directly the end result is exactly the same. There's no achievement, no gold star. You get your SP and go play having paid the same amount of cash regardless.
The only thing we risk 'collapsing' is the ego of people who consider having spent a lot of money on EVE subscriptions to be a moral virtue. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:44:06 -
[536] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:And what happens to the game when the 'norm' is a character with all combat relevant skills at 5? You will quickly find character builds and their prices, everyone who wants to participate in any fleet setup will be required to have the right build, and the game dissolves into pay to participate.
I made a similar point in another thread on SP. That a potential perverse effect of allowing for the purchase of SP is that it raises the bar for participating and that for players not buying SP it might be even longer till they could get into some aspects of the game. I've been on both sides of the Goon/"BoB" war and I can tell you one side is much more receptive to new players and the other is not nearly as receptive.
One of the potential pit falls when one monkey's around with markets is creating perverse incentives.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:12:34 -
[537] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:
If somebody says "I've got X many SP", that's amount is directly related to time subbed, which is in turn convertible to money given to CCP. Whether the cash is spent on a 2 year session of skill-queue online, going to the character bazzar and buy a prebuilt character, or convincing CCP to buy SP directly the end result is exactly the same. There's no achievement, no gold star. You get your SP and go play having paid the same amount of cash regardless.
While the end result might be the same, there is definitely different implications in how the various programs work.
As I have pointed out. What is the upper limit on CCP in terms of SP? There is none. CCP can create SP in any amount they want. About the only upper limit is max SP*number of characters. Even then they can create more skills. In effect, there is no upper limit from a supply side. In fact, there is no supply function at all.*
The only limiting factor is demand. And since CCP sets the price it could end up having an unbalancing effect on the game by leading to a sudden injection of SP into the game, most likely from older/more established players if the price is related to PLEX.
As I have noted, there are strong similarities between buying SP directly from CCP and the private issuance of fiat money. Would you want money issued by a company that has complete control over the quantity of that money? I wouldn't. Because there is nothing stopping them from hyper-inflating that currency if the profits from doing so are large enough.
In other words, if CCP decided to start selling SP directly, there would be an incentive for CCP to push as many SP into the game as possible. The cost to CCP is minimal, if not zero, thus every sale would be pure profits. With an unlimited upper bound on the number of SP that could be pushed into the game, the potential profit is theoretically unbounded as well. If CCPs revenues from subscriptions start to fall, then the incentive to use the SP sales to counter that effect would provide an increasing incentive to basically "inflate" SP.
The character bazaar on the other hand allows for the buying and selling of SP via characters but at the same time CCP has largely taken a very minimal role in that market. This in effect, allows for a stable player driven market without the possible perverse incentives.
There is a considerable literature on this in economics, google the term time inconsistency.
Quote:Monetary policy makers suffer from dynamic inconsistency with inflation expectations, as politicians are best off promising lower inflation in the future. But once tomorrow comes lowering inflation may have negative effects, such as increasing unemployment, so they do not make much effort to lower it. This is why independent central banks are believed to be advantageous for a country. Indeed, "a central bank with a high degree of discretion in conducting monetary policy would find itself under constant political pressure to boost the economy and reduce unemployment, but since the economy cannot exceed its potential GDP or its natural rate of unemployment over time, this policy would instead only lead to higher inflation in the long run".[2] The first paper on this subject was published by Finn E. Kydland and Edward C. Prescott in the Journal of Political Economy in 1977, which eventually led to their winning the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2004
The basic idea is that sometimes, limiting your ability to do something, to purposefully "tie your hands", can have a desirable outcome where if your "hands were free" you could not achieve that outcome.
*Monopolists do not have a supply function. Monopolists pick a price/quantity pair to maximize profits at a given point in time. That is not a supply function.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:30:21 -
[538] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:If somebody says "I've got X many SP", that's amount is directly related to time subbed, which is in turn convertible to money given to CCP. Whether the cash is spent on a 2 year session of skill-queue online, going to the character bazzar and buy a prebuilt character, or convincing CCP to buy SP directly the end result is exactly the same. There's no achievement, no gold star. You get your SP and go play having paid the same amount of cash regardless.
The only thing we risk 'collapsing' is the ego of people who consider having spent a lot of money on EVE subscriptions to be a moral virtue. As well, the idea that "these kinds of games" are played for progression with a character is of little evidence. There's already a character bazaar; and roleplay probably favors the playing part over progression that the character has no control over. If just discussing motivation, it's the less valuable extrinsic reward (something for subbing) vs the intrinsic reward of , for example, gaining that something intuitively and competently (a sense of purpose, choice, competence, and progress).
On those (copy-pasted):
Sense of meaningfulness. This reward involves the meaningfulness or importance of the purpose you are trying to fulfill. You feel that you have an opportunity to accomplish something of real valueGÇösomething that matters in the larger scheme of things. You feel that you are on a path that is worth your time and energy, giving you a strong sense of purpose or direction. Sense of choice. You feel free to choose how to accomplish your workGÇöto use your best judgment to select those work activities that make the most sense to you and to perform them in ways that seem appropriate. You feel ownership of your work, believe in the approach you are taking, and feel responsible for making it work. Sense of competence. You feel that you are handling your work activities wellGÇöthat your performance of these activities meets or exceeds your personal standards, and that you are doing good, high-quality work. You feel a sense of satisfaction, pride, or even artistry in how well you handle these activities. Sense of progress. You are encouraged that your efforts are really accomplishing something. You feel that your work is on track and moving in the right direction. You see convincing signs that things are working out, giving you confidence in the choices you have made and confidence in the future. If these are established by neither SP nor its purchase, then the argument is very little about if SP purchases could effect the game. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 22:34:13 -
[539] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:In other words, if CCP decided to start selling SP directly, there would be an incentive for CCP to push as many SP into the game as possible. The cost to CCP is minimal, if not zero, thus every sale would be pure profits. With an unlimited upper bound on the number of SP that could be pushed into the game, the potential profit is theoretically unbounded as well. If CCPs revenues from subscriptions start to fall, then the incentive to use the SP sales to counter that effect would provide an increasing incentive to basically "inflate" SP. And I can't completely argue against this point. I doubt CCP has gone along with the idea that multiple accounts are basically SOP for over a decade because they think having to remember 15 passwords is core gameplay.
Of course, I also don't *have* to argue that point too much because while I think Mike's argument that allowing purchasable SP will collapse the game is silly, my own preference is to remove SP entirely - neatly sidestepping the possible black, capitalist heart of CCP.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
891
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:51:20 -
[540] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:In other words, if CCP decided to start selling SP directly, there would be an incentive for CCP to push as many SP into the game as possible. The cost to CCP is minimal, if not zero, thus every sale would be pure profits. With an unlimited upper bound on the number of SP that could be pushed into the game, the potential profit is theoretically unbounded as well. If CCPs revenues from subscriptions start to fall, then the incentive to use the SP sales to counter that effect would provide an increasing incentive to basically "inflate" SP. And I can't completely argue against this point. I doubt CCP has gone along with the idea that multiple accounts are basically SOP for over a decade because they think having to remember 15 passwords is core gameplay. Of course, I also don't *have* to argue that point too much because while I think Mike's argument that allowing purchasable SP will collapse the game is silly, my own preference is to remove SP entirely - neatly sidestepping the possible black, capitalist heart of CCP.
And what measure of progress and accomplishment will you replace it with?
Because the game you are describing is a variant of Battlefield--- Everything all at once with no limits. |
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:23:33 -
[541] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:And what measure of progress and accomplishment will you replace it with? Lemme see if I can think of something...
Blue donuts. Tritanium empires. Enforcing the CODE. ISK efficient killboards. Popular video series. Evicting newbie alliances. Domination over Red/Blue. Venture capitalism. Having an anomaly named after you. Exploding a PLEX tanked Interceptor. Being able to afford a blinged out ship. Delivering Torpedos. Provi Safaris. Making friends. Completing 100 space trucking contracts without getting ganked. Scamming your first billion in Jita local. Theorycrafting a better wrecking ball. Shiptoasting. Helping newbies. Cornering the market. Mapping wormholes. Devising a better fit. Owning all of FW space. Beating Bettick on o7. Violencing the biggest rocks. Winning the AT. Building all the battleships. Awoxing blue donuts.
The skillqueue wasn't left out of the "This is EVE" video by accident.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:33:43 -
[542] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:In other words, if CCP decided to start selling SP directly, there would be an incentive for CCP to push as many SP into the game as possible. The cost to CCP is minimal, if not zero, thus every sale would be pure profits. With an unlimited upper bound on the number of SP that could be pushed into the game, the potential profit is theoretically unbounded as well. If CCPs revenues from subscriptions start to fall, then the incentive to use the SP sales to counter that effect would provide an increasing incentive to basically "inflate" SP. And I can't completely argue against this point. I doubt CCP has gone along with the idea that multiple accounts are basically SOP for over a decade because they think having to remember 15 passwords is core gameplay. Of course, I also don't *have* to argue that point too much because while I think Mike's argument that allowing purchasable SP will collapse the game is silly, my own preference is to remove SP entirely - neatly sidestepping the possible black, capitalist heart of CCP.
First off I use KeePass, so I don't have to remember more than 1 password.
Yes, I know you and a few others have advocated for removing all SP, and while that gets around my issue of CCP inflating ISK it also can be terribly unbalancing. For example, I have 3 accounts. Currently 2 have characters who can park an ishtar in an anomaly and rake in ISK. With removing SP, I'll be able to rake 33% more ISK than I do now. If I can rake in say 1.5 billion now, with no SP I'll bring in 2 billion. I doubt I'm alone so we'll see a substantial increase in ISK entering the game. That can be unbalancing. Sure your noob can fly a Claw or a Taranis, but what if they cost 75 million or more for just the hull? They wont be flying that ship until they have the ISK.
You guys just don't think at all when it comes to game balance. Not all, IMO.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 14:13:21 -
[543] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and given how the profit potential is unbounded...how do you argue against that? Just curious? I don't have to, because it's not a problem. Your doomsday scenario can also be described as "What if more people subbed to EVE, and decided not to mine for a living? Oh, the humanity!"
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:50:08 -
[544] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and given how the profit potential is unbounded...how do you argue against that? Just curious? I don't have to, because it's not a problem. Your doomsday scenario can also be described as "What if more people subbed to EVE, and decided not to mine for a living? Oh, the humanity!"
What? That is in no way equivalent.
Let me see, CCP can potentially make lots of RL money is some how related to mining in game.
GMAFB.
Oh and congratulations on making the stupidest post in the thread. Well done.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:52:43 -
[545] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:What? That is in no way equivalent. Let me see, CCP can potentially make lots of RL money is some how related to mining in game. GMAFB. That's discussing in-game "profits", as is the original discussion in that reply line. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:58:16 -
[546] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:What? That is in no way equivalent. Let me see, CCP can potentially make lots of RL money is some how related to mining in game. GMAFB. Oh and congratulations on making the stupidest post in the thread. Well done. That's discussing in-game "profits", as is the original discussion in that reply line.
So, my point is that this could set up a very bad scenario where CCP would have potentially increasing pressure to essentially inflate SP in the game. That is bad for the long term viability of the game.
You are Aerasia constant hand wave any issue having to do with game balance.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:05:05 -
[547] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:So, my point is that this could set up a very bad scenario where CCP would have potentially increasing pressure to essentially inflate SP in the game. That is bad for the long term viability of the game.
You are Aerasia constant hand wave any issue having to do with game balance. That's a digression from what's already discussed.
Teckos Pech wrote:Aerasia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:In other words, if CCP decided to start selling SP directly, there would be an incentive for CCP to push as many SP into the game as possible. The cost to CCP is minimal, if not zero, thus every sale would be pure profits. With an unlimited upper bound on the number of SP that could be pushed into the game, the potential profit is theoretically unbounded as well. If CCPs revenues from subscriptions start to fall, then the incentive to use the SP sales to counter that effect would provide an increasing incentive to basically "inflate" SP. And I can't completely argue against this point. I doubt CCP has gone along with the idea that multiple accounts are basically SOP for over a decade because they think having to remember 15 passwords is core gameplay. Of course, I also don't *have* to argue that point too much because while I think Mike's argument that allowing purchasable SP will collapse the game is silly, my own preference is to remove SP entirely - neatly sidestepping the possible black, capitalist heart of CCP. Yes, I know you and a few others have advocated for removing all SP, and while that gets around my issue of CCP inflating SP it also can be terribly unbalancing. For example, I have 3 accounts. Currently 2 have characters who can park an ishtar in an anomaly and rake in ISK. With removing SP, I'll be able to rake 33% more ISK than I do now. If I can rake in say 1.5 billion now, with no SP I'll bring in 2 billion. I doubt I'm alone so we'll see a substantial increase in ISK entering the game. That can be unbalancing. Sure your noob can fly a Claw or a Taranis, but what if they cost 75 million or more for just the hull? They wont be flying that ship until they have the ISK. You guys just don't think at all when it comes to game balance. Not all, IMO. Oh, and given how the profit potential is unbounded...how do you argue against that? Just curious?
Which returns back on what's just said about it being a non-issue. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3371
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:08:56 -
[548] - Quote
Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So, my point is that this could set up a very bad scenario where CCP would have potentially increasing pressure to essentially inflate SP in the game. That is bad for the long term viability of the game.
You are Aerasia constant hand wave any issue having to do with game balance. That's a digression from what's already discussed.
The only "digression" I see here is you and Aerasia's inability to respond to what I've actually written.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:13:09 -
[549] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Dror wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So, my point is that this could set up a very bad scenario where CCP would have potentially increasing pressure to essentially inflate SP in the game. That is bad for the long term viability of the game.
You are Aerasia constant hand wave any issue having to do with game balance. That's a digression from what's already discussed. The only "digression" I see here is you and Aerasia's inability to respond to what I've actually written. It's really simple.
"Why should I rebut on purchasing SP? Even motivation science shows, and the company has stated, that extrinsic is of much less value than intrinsic. 'If these are established by neither SP nor its purchase, then the argument is very little about if SP purchases could effect the game.'"
"But what about in-game economics and what would happen with a bunch of alts?"
"This is a non-issue, because it's the same as asking if a bunch of players joined the game."
Replying again about purchasing SP seems pretty worthless. There are already arguments there about removing SP that are without discussion.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:47:32 -
[550] - Quote
Dror wrote:"But what about in-game economics and what would happen with a bunch of alts?"
"This is a non-issue, because it's the same as asking if a bunch of players joined the game." To give Teckos the benefit of the doubt I think he might have been alluding to the idea that if an alt has perfect ability to earn cash near AFK, what incentive would CCP have to stop that practice?
And as with the previous SP buying idea, there isn't really one. But then, it's also not a change from the current situation. By his own argument he's already got 2 AFK-ratters. Running PI empires on each character isn't an uncommon practice. "Power of 2" promotions didn't happen by accident.
On the other hand, CCP has been seen to act against those interests. ISBoxer restrictions had no financial motivation. And whether you think it's vaporware or not, the idea of "Brain in a box" removing OGB is also a step towards nerfing alt-aholics.
But the argument is either "If you remove SP, CCP might keep doing what they're already doing.", your summary of "This is a non-issue, because it's the same as asking if a bunch of players joined the game." or simply "I spent a lot of time building this skill queue - don't take that away!"
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:03:19 -
[551] - Quote
Hrm... Seen this topic many times, but just had a different idea....
What if we SP transfer by time as part of training?
It is limited to skills with similar attributes possibly but what if while training, you transfer SP off one skill onto another one as that skill trains.
For example, you have Gallente frigate V and want to train caldari V instead. I assign that skill to untrain, and while the normal SP builds, the sp is removed from that one skill and added to the other. Thereby essentially "doubling" the rate of training, at expense of what you already trained.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.09.24 22:03:54 -
[552] - Quote
An interesting discussion is producing the following idea (which is probably only worth the read if interested in the premise of an EVE-like game with multiple times its average PCU):
What Plausibly Happens with Removed SP Capital Ships: The Game Capital Escalations, Carrier/SuperCarrier ratting.. yeah. Mineral prices skyrocket like crazy due to the mass ISK generation and capital ship construction Supers fighting supers to protect super fetuses B-R gameplay consistently Subs flooding the game from all the stories
Why is this relevant? What makes this seem interesting? A common idea is that B-R stories are a main and effective advertisement. Setting up lots of skirmishes is supposedly CCP's main design direction.
Per CCP, "There's a ton of information [and evidence] on how intrinsic motivation is much better for creativity and engagement. Extrinsic rewards erode motivation, focus the gameplay on the reward structure, help de-track other goals and ideas, and develop dependence on those rewards for a guide." An "experience" system (SP) is an extrinsic reward.
Expectations Why would fresh subs expect B-R? More on point, why would fresh subs come for B-R? Some studies would list these game traits as fantasy, socialization, and competence. They're interested in the skillfulness of flying well, socialization and teamwork, and the story aspect of the experience.
So, what comes with that fantasy? Most spaceship-game progression is completely about flying bigger ships. That lines up with this game's story of massive capitals. Then there's the experience of flying multiple types of ships, flying in support of the capital fleet, protecting their production -- competence and mastery.
What happens where none of these expectations are met, through limited engagements and fitting and ship options? So the expectations are "Capitals: The Game"?
Common Criticisms Tidi An abundance of capitals can be limited as necessary through ISK payouts like bounties or another tweak of their appeal; and there are already few enough reasons for merging a bunch of fleets in one place. Those capitals can be anywhere, and they'll get caught more regularly. If that still ends up in poor infrastructure response, it's probably within fix.
Rifters costing 50M It's unreasonable, the idea that the market could support enough caps for over-inflating itself, especially from affording frigates. Either both are semi-affordable, or neither are. What's the probability, a few cap investments empty the market? Then what? It fills back up. This either stabilizes or stays that way or gets patched in some form. Characters benefit from keeping prices low, so there's plenty of reason for min-maxing whatever defines that. In this case, it's plausibly just mining and producing ships. This also has the benefit of providing that "I'm making ships" feeling and of evening out the supply vs the demand that's, purportedly, majorly in favor of demand.
There are also limitations on cap construction that can be dynamically enforced by strategy. X-Alliance is silent, probably farming? Better take their systems.
Alts Online: Security Status Becomes Worthless Sec status could be tied to the account.
Other forms of "Alts Online" One account allows one ship in space. More accounts require more subs. It's like asking what would happen if more subs joined the game.
Every ship being a faction ship or something There are obvious limitations on ship production, including through LP, as well as limitations coming from funding options. What's the alternative, liquid ISK and assets keep stacking? The reason for spending ISK is a threat; and a threat requires initiative, which requires efficiency, which requires freedom. |
Persephone IX
Symbolic.
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 20:46:59 -
[553] - Quote
CCP, that's the thin end of the wedge, free bought skills? Unless you plan to go F2P and sell skillpoints instead. Which is equally bad. You want free sps? Its called character bazaar. Buy plex , pay the iskies, get the char, done. Free sps at your disposal.
CCP, Can I Haz My Stuff?
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Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
470
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 01:41:40 -
[554] - Quote
It seems that all the various proposals about introducing Learning Boosters as an alternative to implants could fall under this thread too.
- Player manufactured - Consumable - Limited Use - Drawbacks/possible side effects - Helps PVP and industrial characters both
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Halan Devan
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.09.29 18:56:23 -
[555] - Quote
I will not touch the topic of buying SP other than to just say "No!"
But remapping is another idea... The biggest problem that i see is that people are being greedy and wanting to remap ALL their skill points, most likely instantly.
This shouldn't just be a "click here to magically remap all SP on the character", it should require expenses and effort in game.
Limit it to 10% of the characters total, also limit it to once a year much like remaps. Perhaps limit the amount of total SP remapped as well. We could give players the single starting remap for free then have them fork over PLEX after that first time, or make the higher level remapping implants (mentioned below) cost much more.
Also require an implant that replaces ALL other implants in that clone, and give it a weeks ( or more for larger remap amounts) time to complete the remap. Depending on the SP retrained/remapped have different costs to the implant needed.
Thus there is obviously no standard SP training during that time, and if you wind up podded during that time then you have to go back and start over from the beginning with the partial remap. And buy new implants.
I think there are enough limits that CCP could put on how and when the idea to (partially) remap can be used that it could be worthwhile for many players and not just overpowered, yet allow those with poor training choices in the past to correct at least part of their new player mistakes if they choose to spend the time and/or Isk/PLEX.
This shouldn't just be a "click and instantly remap all SP on the character", it should require expenses and effort in gameas outlined earlier.
This could even be a one time affair offered to players if CCP ever gets to the point where they are removing character attributes from EvE.
Disclaimer: All numbers used in the above post are vague suggestions, subject to alteration as needed. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 10:01:03 -
[556] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:It seems that all the various proposals about introducing Learning Boosters as an alternative to implants could fall under this thread too.
- Player manufactured - Consumable - Limited Use - Drawbacks/possible side effects - Helps PVP and industrial characters both
It has yet to be properly explained why -- if attributes are problematic because of forcing uninteresting training, and they are supposedly being discussed for removal with the only problem being how much LP is spent on learning implants -- that attributes can't just be all set at 27, at least until something is figured out for replacing implants (if at all). |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1302
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 14:57:56 -
[557] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:There is no "right" or "wrong" answer with regards to skillpoints. Merely what you find relevant now and irrelevant later... good for X situation and bad for Y situation. Either way, the power of the skills you train is always there. You just aren't using ALL of them at any given time (for whatever reason). And that is part of the "process" of this game.
Example: when I was young I trained up MINING skills. I was pretty good at it and had a decent skillplan incorporating mining with PvP skills. Then one day I realized that I really did not like mining in any serious way and did not want those skills to be on my PvP character. So I abandoned the skillplan and focused purely on PvP.
Fast forward a few years... I have near perfect subcapital PvP skills... but the mining skills remain... a remnant of a different stage in my evolution in EVE. Then mining barges were changed/buffed. I took a look at them... and I saw the Procurer. If ever there was a bait ship, that was it. Tanky, could fit full tackle, everyone underestimated it, and it also had the capacity to kill "small threats." I got 3. Now I sometimes sit in a low-sec belt... mining... using those same skills that I had abandoned because I hated them and found little use for (at that time).
The point is... you never know when you will eventually you will find use for the skills that you trained before and find useless today. And since there is no cap on how many skills you can accumulate, sooner or later you may find yourself working on those skills you previously abandoned. In a larger sense... no time is "wasted" training any particular skill.
Other things to consider:
- It will make newbies think that more SP = more powerful (which is not exactly true as I have pointed out consistently in my usual "Skillpoint Spiel" (see the link in my sig below)).
- Buying skillpoints deprives the newbie of the "process experience" of being new... which is necessary as it teaches newbies how to work with what they have rather than just throw money at a perceived "problem."
- It makes the beginning experiences of newbies MORE painful as they will "throw money" to get more SP and expensive ships... and then wind up losing it due to lack of experience (which is more rage worthy than losing a couple of cheapo frigates and cruisers that one has only put in mild investment into).
- Older players (especially rich ones with access to gobs of ISK) will be able to afford more PLEXes (and thus skillpoints) than any newbie will and still stay ahead in terms of total SP.
- Yes, yes... the Character Bazaar is technically a way to bypass training and get more SP for ISK... but it is more of a grudging necessity than a desired mechanic. Players will always find ways to sell characters regardless of the legality of such a transaction (look at other games for good examples of this). So the best option for all parties is to "contain" and "regulate" the sales in-house so everyone is protected. If there was a way to reliably prevent players from selling accounts then I'm sure that would have been the method used by CCP. The reality is that there isn't.
- Players did get concessions from CCP regarding micro-transactions during the Incarna fiasco. One of those concessions what that PLEX/Aurum would not be used in ways that would give a player a clear advantage over others just because they paid more money (see: gameplay advantages). Granted... creating multiple accounts is also a gameplay advantage... but CCP doesn't see the difference (mechanically speaking) between an alt account and another player playing. In their eyes, it is no different than teaming up with another (actual) player... except a player using two accounts has to split his/her time and attention between both accounts and is thus less effective than two actual players.
I think this guy nailed it pretty much. EVE was never about the SP (or it never used to be) and should never be. As I've said often in threads about this issue as per this one:
Use plex to Train Skills directly...
Maximus Aerelius wrote:It's not about the amount of SP you have, it's what you have it in, what you do with it, who you fly with, who you fly for, what you do, who you do it to, who you do that with or for and with and the reaction to your actions...
And that's all I've got to say apart from no to P2W\P2T.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Danica Dankness
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.10.07 05:51:45 -
[558] - Quote
I don't know if anyone cares about a newbies point of view on this, but I will speak anyway I may be new or newish to eve, but I have been a competitive gamer since 2000 or so.
Purchasing SP in any way, shape, or form is a bad idea.
If you trained the skills, they are yours and you should keep them, not trade them for others. This keeps all of us equal and our SP is due to our choices. Implementing a trade system will only complicated an already complicated game.
I think implants should be left alone. If I train cybernetics to 5 and want to plug in +5 implants then its my loss if I get them blown up. If I choose to only train it to 2, then that's on me also.
I understand why the skill training is there and fully accept it as being a necessary part of the game, but I think newbies like myself are at a huge disadvantage to older players when it comes to the current SP system. A 3 year old player has the luxury of maxing his attributes toward a certain map and only training those skills that fit the map. I have to mix Int/Mem skills with Per/Will and then throw in Mem/Per for drones and Int/Per for navigation skills so the end result is the older player getting anywhere from 2 to 5 million SP more per year. I also find the whole meta of skill planning to be confusing and is something else that I have to learn in a very complicated game. I would like to see all attributes evened across the board at somewhere between 23 and 25 (25 will give you equal to the current max not counting any implants) and eliminate the need to remap as all skills will train at the same pace. This will benefit newer players but will also benefit older players who have gaps to fill in that do not match their current attribute map. I am sure there would be bitter vets bitching about this, but what are they going to complain about, a newbie training skills at the same rate they are? Hush now bitter vet you will still have plenty of baby seals to club. It would still take me a long long long long time to train into that Archon with T2 siege, I am not asking for anything to be given to me, just don't make it so confusing.
One last thing I would like to add is that when I started playing Eve, it was done with 3 of my gaming buddies that I have played with for over 10 years. I am the only one that stuck with it. The other 3 simply hated the entire complication of the skill training, not the fact of having to train skills, but just how complicated CCP has made it, and many of the suggestions I have read in this thread would double or triple that complication. If new player retention is desired, then this is one area that could be simplified, but not eliminated. Your early hurdles and road blocks in Eve should be how to keep your first Rifter from getting blown up and deciding what projectile turret to put on it, not trying to figure out how to train SP.
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1306
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 13:05:36 -
[559] - Quote
Danica Dankness wrote:Purchasing SP in any way, shape, or form is a bad idea.
If you trained the skills, they are yours and you should keep them, not trade them for others. This keeps all of us equal and our SP is due to our choices. Implementing a trade system will only complicated an already complicated game.
Snipped for clarity but a great post (yes I'm one of those "Bitter Vets"). I fully agree that a flat rate of SP gain through training would remove some of the planning but then it's also apparent that EVE standsout from the crowd because of that complexity. It's been touted around as "the thinking persons game" and it takes some learning. After 12 years I don't know it all yet and things change pretty darn quickly these days.
Quick sum-up: fully behind the above and no to buying SP. Yes to flat rate train but you'd still need to skill plan for goals\targets etc.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3473
|
Posted - 2015.10.09 17:57:13 -
[560] - Quote
Danica Dankness wrote:I don't know if anyone cares about a newbies point of view on this, but I will speak anyway I may be new or newish to eve, but I have been a competitive gamer since 2000 or so. Purchasing SP in any way, shape, or form is a bad idea.
So you want to get rid of the character bazaar then?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1308
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 15:22:38 -
[561] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Danica Dankness wrote:I don't know if anyone cares about a newbies point of view on this, but I will speak anyway I may be new or newish to eve, but I have been a competitive gamer since 2000 or so. Purchasing SP in any way, shape, or form is a bad idea. So you want to get rid of the character bazaar then?
That's a bit different as someone paid in subs and time to train that character up rather than just buying & applying SP to the FOTM fit\activity.
The Bazaar is also limited by how many chars\accounts you have. You're limited to 3 chars per account without forking out extra for another account so that's another check in for decisions\price.
[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b]
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3478
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 18:04:51 -
[562] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Danica Dankness wrote:I don't know if anyone cares about a newbies point of view on this, but I will speak anyway I may be new or newish to eve, but I have been a competitive gamer since 2000 or so. Purchasing SP in any way, shape, or form is a bad idea. So you want to get rid of the character bazaar then? That's a bit different as someone paid in subs and time to train that character up rather than just buying & applying SP to the FOTM fit\activity. The Bazaar is also limited by how many chars\accounts you have. You're limited to 3 chars per account without forking out extra for another account so that's another check in for decisions\price.
I understand, having sold a few characters myself, but the point still remains, it is a form of buying SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Julien Brellier
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
54
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Posted - 2015.10.15 18:39:51 -
[563] - Quote
Pay to remove some of your own skills and return unallocated SP to your own character sheet or transferred to an alt on the same account? Cool.
Pay to buy skills? Totally insane move that will kill this game stone dead. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2553
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:16:53 -
[564] - Quote
Julien Brellier wrote:... Pay to buy skills? Totally insane move that will kill this game stone dead. What are you essentially doing when you buy a toon in the character bazaar?
Would you like to know more?
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4863
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 20:31:14 -
[565] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Julien Brellier wrote:... Pay to buy skills? Totally insane move that will kill this game stone dead. What are you essentially doing when you buy a toon in the character bazaar? Paying someone else for their time & effort in acquiring skill books and training the skills themselves. That character started just like any other new character, until they started working with it.
It is comparable to paying a babysitter, as they took care of your new bundle of joy before you got it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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Arden Bastilla
Defiance LLC
2
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Posted - 2015.10.15 20:52:01 -
[566] - Quote
So with the current proposed system from teh Dev blog we remove SP in fixed amounts (currently 500k) which is turn into an item that we can sell. Character Bazaar still exists so no issues there. No pay to win as they have put diminishing returns on applying the SP to characters, plus the SP comes from characters. Only new characters get the benefit of this fully. Otherwise SP is removed from the game and some isk is sunk if this was a market transaction because of taxes. Oh and I'm sure if Aurum sales go up then CCP also wins in this as well.
I see this mainly as a way to get some isk out of the game and to give new players/characters a chance to become "Useful" quickly. Case in point, we are a WH corp and living in a WH requires certain skills to be useful (cloak, scan, etc). I have a friend that wants to join but he isn't useful in our corp so either he hates it or is negectled and leaves. If on the other hand I can buy him some Skill Packets and give him a boost to start and get him up to say the 5 mil cap before diminishing returns it is worth it to me. I just spent the isk I would have on PLEX to get him to play on something that will make his experience more enjoyable. Especially since I can help him pick the right skills from the start.
I would have to say that this will also help determine the pricing of characters in teh bazaar since all SP will have a fixed value based on the Skill Packet pricing. So if the going rate is 500 isk/SP then a Skill Packet is worth 250 mil each. I would actually be more willing to buy a character off of the bazaar knowing that I can sell some of the skills that I don't want to recoupe some of the isk I spent buying the character... Or on the other hand I can find a character that has most of the skills and buy the rest of the skills through Packets to get him to where I want to be. Either way all the SP comes from actual subscriptions so there really isn't a P2W factor here. Instead we can get our new player base more capable and ready to join in some of the more interesting aspects of Eve because they now have the right skills without having to wait years to get to them.
All in all i think the current iteration does the intended job or rewarding new players with SP quickly to retain them and gives older players a chance to help out new players/characters or make some extra isk. |
Melek D'Ivri
Nachtwasser GmbH
55
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Posted - 2015.10.15 20:58:03 -
[567] - Quote
Having just read the article, Pay To Win Mode for EVE Online I am severely disturbed at this prospect for the future of the game, and lose all feelings of hope brought about by the whole "EVE Forever" stuff.
I am not a low end player based on skill points, I am not a top tier veteran either, I am just a player somewhere in the middle of that, with a decent amount of experience and skill points. I have low skill alts, I have high skill alts, just like many other players do.
I understand this move is designed with low skill and new players in mind to give them a better head start and help them along in their progress. It won't. "Why?" you ask.
Low skill players have no idea what they are doing. -- I'm not going to give my kids a loaded gun and expect them to safely handle it. -- They haven't used the trial and error and learning to know where to properly allocate points. -- This pushes them outside of what they can handle and will increase the level of significant losses they incur.
*Significant losses include everything from demoralizing losses that make them quit EVE to career ending losses that prohibits them from PLEXing if that's how they pay to play the game.
It honestly feels like this is a push to make new players want to buy PLEX (above point) -- "I have the skills to fly great ships, but not the ISK! Maybe I should just buy a PLEX." -- If I get more ISK/Aurum I can buy more Skill Points, but I have no way to earn these very quickly.
Older players win. -- Who cares if it takes 10 times more skill packets to get the same SP as a newbro. They make tons more ISK by comparison. -- They know where to put the points in to win the game. The impact of a veteran with unallocated SP is more powerful. -- The guys that care about being the top SP player in the game can further widen that gap given enough Aurum/Plex/ISK.
Just keep the freaking bazaar. Sell of an entire character or make it an option to character swap or something, but seriously don't just ruin this game because selling packets seems cool. This is a low quality idea that's easy to make sound like a good thing and has no regard for future implications and impact on gameplay. |
Furyan Vakko
Pizza Delivery Express
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:05:51 -
[568] - Quote
I think this a very good idea.
It's a great substitution for the character bazzar. |
Koston Eld
Extra Galactic Expeditions
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:18:55 -
[569] - Quote
I hate the idea of trading sp around. People already have the ability to trade p with that character bazaar. Make that an ingame feature/forum would be great and easier to find and use than the forum one.
I do like the idea of being able to buy a bonus remap once or twice per account. Or a (very hard) way to earn an additional bonus remap. But the players that have been around forever need to feel like their commitment is worth it. Eve is hiring now, but eve also can't cave to make it easier for new bros.
Doing small things like more sp on char creation and other little things is great, tradin sp is bad news |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 21:32:32 -
[570] - Quote
I'm all about criticizing P2W aspects because of how it effects newbies and retention, but if you have that problem with this idea, you have that problem with SP altogether.
Furthermore, this post's reasoning is shabby at best, and here's why.
Melek D'Ivri wrote:I understand this move is designed with low skill and new players in mind to give them a better head start and help them along in their progress. It won't. "Why?" you ask.
Low skill players have no idea what they are doing. -- I'm not going to give my kids a loaded gun and expect them to safely handle it. -- They haven't used the trial and error and learning to know where to properly allocate points. -- This pushes them outside of what they can handle and will increase the level of significant losses they incur.
*Significant losses include everything from demoralizing losses that make them quit EVE to career ending losses that prohibits them from PLEXing if that's how they pay to play the game. Everything about motivation describes self-direction as most beneficial for innovation, creativity, etc. Furthermore, there's the option of learning the game and playing well without the objectively arbitrary limitations of SP. It's no fun subbing for a game and finding the inability to do anything you've heard about or fantasized (competitively). On defining the qualia for interest in video games, the top response on the top category (competition) -- "I like to play to prove to my friends that I am the best." SP is a barrier in the progression for that, and that's a problem for retention and referrals.
You're implying that SP is somehow helpful for the game. Well, here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then?
"Veterans win." That already happens. Starter corps are already non-competitive because of low SP. Where's sov action now? It's supported by the biggest ships. "Fix sov!" you say. Remove SP. |
|
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
513
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:30:55 -
[571] - Quote
This thread just got officially weird....
Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format.
Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
|
Megumi Yumiko
Stillwater Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:36:19 -
[572] - Quote
I think they just should change it how it was giving rookies a clear idea what skills they might get when they start and maybe give a extra tutorial here or there and just add 3 mil sp all together instead of making this a freemuim game really
I know rookies could use the support of this but really, this is getting to Sp for rl money and that wil be really...really stupid if you ask me knowing the time and effort that I put in my alts and my two mains can be removed simply by opening my bank wallet gives me a really sour taste to be fair.
Short version :
Something needs to be done, but paying for sp, sure of hell should "NOT" be on the list |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:43:27 -
[573] - Quote
Arden Bastilla wrote:No pay to win as ... They are dealing with SP, which the EVE forums are very quick to point out don't 'win' you anything.
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Cosmonaut Ivanova
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 22:47:58 -
[574] - Quote
ok Forum rules say explain
bad Idea why?
Pay to win. No matter how you slice it, making SP granular and not sold in bracketed packages, is open to fantastic abuse. The outragously rich can hoover up SP - other players can't - pay a dollar price for isk, get SP however you want it.
The reason the character Bazarr worked at all is because of all the things the dev blog calls negative come attached to a character when you buy it.
Seriously, how can you not see how bad an idea this is!? verge of rant.
do better! I know you can make good choices, make better choices!
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:06:12 -
[575] - Quote
Cosmonaut Ivanova wrote:Pay to win. If paying for these new SP Packets is pay to win, why isn't the Bazaar? Why isn't paying a sub to get SP pay to win?
The only way to get SP is with real life dollars. If SP = win, then EVE's skill system is P2W in its entirety. |
Cosmonaut Ivanova
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:27:18 -
[576] - Quote
No
The complexity that comes with the character bazaar, character packages, mistakes that're made, reputation attached to names, sets of skills that are built upon the in game requirements that don't allow certain skills before others.
These things prevent significant abuse. Characters are already trained to be sold, I get that, I don't like it, but I tolerate it because it's under control.
Characters created for the sole purpose of farming SP and pumping it into toons already bloated with SP, I fundementally disagree with. It is not Eve.
at the moment you can train many at the same time. under this proposed system you can train one many times. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.15 23:44:16 -
[577] - Quote
Cosmonaut Ivanova wrote:under this proposed system you can train one many times. And under the current system you can just buy one that somebody else trained years ago.
And you can't pump SP into toons 'already bloated' with SP. The highest tax bracket put forth is 90% - that means in order to double the SP rate on a 100M SP toon you'd need 10 alt characters. That's 40 Billion ISK in start-up PLEX (those alts need to be over 5M SP to even transfer anything off) and then ~13 Billion ISK/month in PLEX costs for those farm alts plus some tens of Billions of ISK in the Aurum/SP Extractors.
Exactly how many players do you think are going to be paying 60+ Billion ISK to go from 120M SP to 122M SP? |
Cosmonaut Ivanova
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:25:01 -
[578] - Quote
More than enough. Too many in fact.
Create that gap and it it will be filled |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:37:55 -
[579] - Quote
I'd better get my PLEX buying wallet out then. If people are going to be gobbling up PLEX dozens at a time in order to fund SP farms I want in on the gold rush. |
Cosmonaut Ivanova
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:44:28 -
[580] - Quote
Perhaps a profitable idea, and not just for you.
I'd have to defer to a space economist to answer that one. |
|
Naoru Kozan
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
97
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:48:16 -
[581] - Quote
After a bit of thought I think this is a good change. Anything that makes it faster for newbies to get an effective ship + fit is good for the game. The items will be tradable on the market...thus you will start seeing these showing up in killmails. SP and ISK sink achieved right there lol.
Also "pay to win arguement" is pretty dumb. ISK don't buy knowledge of Eve mechanics. |
Aves Asio
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 02:51:56 -
[582] - Quote
Bad idea is bad. New players will be forced to pay real money, old players on the other hand will just keep buying skill packets with all the incursion and afk farming isk. It doesnt matter how diminishing the returns are sp is more valuable then isk, |
Furyvixen Bloodhoof
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation.
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 06:44:26 -
[583] - Quote
It's too late, it's happening.
Lock this thread under rule 17 as there's a more important official one in play now. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:08:26 -
[584] - Quote
As a bitter vet, owner of ~244mil sp on main char and probably ~1bil on all chars i think this is great idea. CCP please read carefully to understand why:
1. For 12 years I have been playing this game, did plenty of mistakes with missed training, getting podded without clone and losing BS 5, training without implants. Even had some inactivity periods. But for all those 12 years I have been looking at Dr Caymus being the guy with the most sp in the game. Wishing to take his place...
He had trained every day for 12 years, to his optimized attributes, with implants, without doing any (at least visible) mistakes to be on the top for all these years. Now with this new option I will simply use my inactive accounts (you can check their sp) and spend cash to take him over. I mean F*CK his 12 years of efforts I will give you money!!! (And that`s what this is about right?)
2. People will focus even more in ISK grinding, in order to buy chars, get the sp. I mean you can never have enough sp, right? You can hope it will not happen, but I assure it will. That means that less people will PVP and we (bitter vets) will enjoy pvp like in good old games with much smaller numbers. Get rid of the blobs \o/
3. As people focus on grinding, game will become more boring to them and during the time they will simply quit. Not everyone has persistence to train and pay for 12 years eh? So the player base will shrink and there will be less lag.
4. As more and more people "pay to win" and speed up with getting wanted sp to be able to fly the ships they dream about, they will sooner make their dreams come true and get bored. Easier the game is - faster it gets boring. More players quitting - hurrah!
5. People who like fair chances in games will quit as well. But who cares, **** on the poor people, just grinding isk is not enough. If they cannot spend the money in your game you do not need them anyway. Why should EVE be different from other p2w games. Why should it be niche game better be classic mediocre game but get the masses and the money eh?
6. As more and more people are quitting, some of my bitter vet friends will do as well. I am sure decent amount will quit due to this change as well, no one likes to see their efforts and money treated like sh*t.As in past, most of them will give me their assets and characters and by taking their sp i can be sure to remain top 1. And that is lot of isk and sp to get!
7. In the end when everyone quits out of boredom, I will be the real winner.Thank you CCP, sorry for your game that will die btw. Until then, my credit card is ready for this brilliant idea.
Now off with sarcasm. For those commenting that bazaar is already p2w: it does improve your "winning" a bit, by speeding some things up, but you can never take over people who invested years of efforts and subscription to be where they are. And that should be honored by CCP if they do not want to lose their face in greed for some more money. Because if you do not honor your vets today, players who are new now will know you will not honor them in couple of years either. And no one sticks long in such "relationships". Maybe some pathological cases, but they are not so common :)
And yes, as you probably already know there are people who will spend thousands of bucks on this game in order to accomplish what they want. So you will make some money, though it will be short term only. In the long run you are continuing to kill this pearl among the games...
I am not sure who came up with such "brilliant" idea without taking side effects in the consideration. I agree there should be ways to help new players. But not by killing the one of the essences of the game. Get advisers not just from CSM, most of them is there just because they have large alliances behind them, it is more of e-peen measuring (or at least it was in past, while I still hoped they would come up with some good ideas).
People who already have more than 20/30/50? mil sp will probably stick to the game anyway, they have already invested time and learned a lot about the game. You need to help just the focus group. I am sure you can run data analysis and check when the most of people quits and make separate strategies to try to keep them. I think the most quits with less than 10mil sp, but do your work and find it out yourself.
What made this game was its toughness, nowadays 1 month char can make isk easier than 10-20mil sp ones could do in past. They get skills boost, they do not have to train learning skills, etc. It is already MUCH easier. And you keep failing to keep them with all those new ideas? Then you need to find some other approach to get/keep them into the game, get new people involved.
Decade ago, EVE was elitist game, we laughed to other grinding MMORPGs. Now, EVE is slowly turning in one of them. Everyone wanted to PVP back then, even though it was much tougher to make isk for lost ships. Nowadays the most of the players are "scared" to do so as someone might see their losses and make fun of them. Or simply because they do not want their "losing" to be public, if there is no API they can always deny it :) They will rather wait for certain win scenarios so they can boost their kb stats. Which are rarely related to their skills... And meanwhile just grind isk for bigger ships, not realizing that "you are not your ship" rule :). Same will be with sp, they will rush to get more and more, without knowing that sp do not equal skills.
EVE has changed a lot over time, from taking pride in being different game among plenty of MMORPGs, harder and tougher, being unique, joy of our community compared to games dominated by 13 years old players etc. For some time it is taking direction to even with them and this seems like one of the final nails in the coffin. I am sorry for that :(
TL; DR
NO
Get better advisers.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
36
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 08:10:06 -
[585] - Quote
Another post from other topic which does not even goes in details about how it is being wrong from the "psychology behind the game" perspective. I suggest CCP reads other topic carefully as well, lots of good points there.
They want to introduce new feature which should help new players.
So when the new player comes he finds out that beside subscription he should spent 5x-10x that money to "get it going". Meaning that since the start he does not get the EVE. Eve is not about speeding things up and having it easy way. When that reality hits them a lot will just quit, since they were not prepared for that.
After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training. There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours. Then disappointment comes. Guess what, 99% will quit. You will make them spend extra cash and give them false image of the game which will not lead to anything.
So the group this should help the most will actually have the least benefit of it. Ie the whole idea is a giant fail. There are people mentioning alliances who will buy sp to boost news etc. How many alliances accepts new players? How many puts effort in them? Eve Uni cannot fund something like this, other alliances/corps might eventually use it to affect some battle doctrine they are using, but there is low possibility due to high cost as alliances tend to have players with more sp.
There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one.
Meanwhile, some older players will utilize this function to spec new alts. Also some rich old players could try to get on top of total sp list and take off someone who committed himself for years to the game to be where he is. During that plenty of older/vet players will quit, disappointed in CCP. They will not be disappointed because "some newbs are overtaking them in sp". Let`s be realistic, there will be only minor amount of those who will spend a lot of cash to get high sp just for the sake of sp. There might be couple of contenders on top spots, i know some people can afford spending thousands of usd/eur on the game if they find that idea (to be top 1) in sp interesting.
People will be disappointed as they will see CCP making great mistakes. Changing FUNDAMENTALS of the game for something new, something they cannot even assume the result of, without considering side effects and without caring about their customers feelings. Meaning that if they are ready to do it once, they will do it again and people will not commit their time as they cannot know what to expect next in the long run. People will be disappointed as they will lose faith in CCP and company`s vision of the game. No one is going to trust with his money company which is inconsistent and on whom`s ideas and vision they can lean on or see themselves be part of.
So, even though some people have personal interests to be able to fix the mistakes they did (boofkinhoo, cry me a river about wrongly put 2mil sp) or to get an alt easier without being able to look at the whole picture as they can look up only on their own asses, this whole idea will strike whole player base in much worse sense.
And there could be even more side effects like rmt and who knows what else...
I hope I have drawn it nicely for everyone.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Ahuraa
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:38:58 -
[586] - Quote
I believe this function would empower the rich and weaker the poor.
We can see this today in the market. Those people with massive amount of isk are controlling the prices as if it was their ISK printing machine.
The goal of this is as i have understood it to give players the chance to switch "specialties" and that goal is valid, but the restrictions set does not reflect that at all.
The rules of the Transneural Skill Packet should be the opposite. That means if you have allot of skill points then you should NOT be able to buy these packs. Those people that have low skills and that have come to understand the game better and want to take another approach in their long term goals should have the opportunity to do so.
Instead you want those that have massive amount of ISK to be able to use these packs to empower them even more.
I dont know if you can see individual wallet transactions or not and how the transactions of one account effect certain items in market, but we do see it all the time. The price manipulation is real and people are using their massive wealth to adjust prices for their benefits.
I also understand that this is part of the game and i am ok with it, what i am saying is to not give these people more tools that they can use to get even more wealth.
Thank you |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:54:07 -
[587] - Quote
@ Don ZOLA
Dror wrote:I'm all about criticizing P2W aspects because of how it effects newbies and retention, but if you have that problem with this idea, you have that problem with SP altogether. Furthermore, this post's reasoning is shabby at best, and here's why. Everything about motivation describes self-direction as most beneficial for innovation, creativity, etc. Furthermore, there's the option of learning the game and playing well without the objectively arbitrary limitations of SP. It's no fun subbing for a game and finding the inability to do anything you've heard about or fantasized (competitively). On defining the qualia for interest in video games, the top response on the top category (competition) -- "I like to play to prove to my friends that I am the best." SP is a barrier in the progression for that, and that's a problem for retention and referrals. You're implying that SP is somehow helpful for the game. Well, here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? "Veterans win." That already happens. Starter corps are already non-competitive because of low SP. Where's sov action now? It's supported by the biggest ships. "Fix sov!" you say. ["Fix P2W."] Remove SP. |
MrQuisno
Steelmaze Blacksmithing
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 11:58:49 -
[588] - Quote
Keras Authion wrote:Posting the Tippia's copypasta for why buying or remapping skillpoints is bad It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. Edit: Here's the old microtransactions vote thread from late 2010, made after the SP reallocation hit the sisi and there was plans for plex for remaps. Note the vote distribution.
Lookss like this topic is dead now that ccp is doing it now :).... good luck
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/ |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:13:28 -
[589] - Quote
MrQuisno wrote:Keras Authion wrote:Posting the Tippia's copypasta for why buying or remapping skillpoints is bad It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. Edit: Here's the old microtransactions vote thread from late 2010, made after the SP reallocation hit the sisi and there was plans for plex for remaps. Note the vote distribution. Lookss like this topic is dead now that ccp is doing it now :).... good luck https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/ Warm memo that most or all of that is one huge appeal to tradition. Show where being limited from playing the game with depth and efficiency is motivating (and with research)? Show where character specialization is something more effective, for interest and subs, than exploring all of the game systems? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:18:50 -
[590] - Quote
Dror wrote:@ Don ZOLA Dror wrote:I'm all about criticizing P2W aspects because of how it effects newbies and retention, but if you have that problem with this idea, you have that problem with SP altogether. Furthermore, this post's reasoning is shabby at best, and here's why. Everything about motivation describes self-direction as most beneficial for innovation, creativity, etc. Furthermore, there's the option of learning the game and playing well without the objectively arbitrary limitations of SP. It's no fun subbing for a game and finding the inability to do anything you've heard about or fantasized (competitively). On defining the qualia for interest in video games, the top response on the top category (competition) -- "I like to play to prove to my friends that I am the best." SP is a barrier in the progression for that, and that's a problem for retention and referrals. You're implying that SP is somehow helpful for the game. Well, here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? "Veterans win." That already happens. Starter corps are already non-competitive because of low SP. Where's sov action now? It's supported by the biggest ships. "Fix sov!" you say. ["Fix P2W."] Remove SP.
Read my both posts on it. P2W is not the main issue. As more sp does not mean win of course. But there are plenty of other issues connected to this, main one being inconsistency.
And I think you have totally missed the motivation part or you have missed the point of EVE. If it was like that then just give all sp and isk to anyone and they can do whatever they have fantasized. Dreams come true by efforts, dedication, sometimes even luck. EVE is tough game and that`s what made it different from others. While there is no clear "end game" in EVE, you still have to put effort to get in some form of it and then do what you have fantasized. And there is no best player in any segment, as long as CCP does not make official competitions for such titles.
SP is entry barrier for lazy, non persistent players. What EVE "was" is not the game for them. Because even if you make start easier, as soon as it gets bit harder they will quit. CCP needs to address their marketing different way. Not just by showing nice graphic, stories and explosions but with challenging potential new players with asking them in advance "Do you have what it takes? Are you ready to give your blood and your sweat to make in impact in this space" etc.
I can tell you that most of older players, vets, have actually enjoyed that barrier and the amount of effort EVE demands. That differentiated us from WoW like MMORPGs where kids would just grind until they get bored. In EVE you needed brains + effort to be able to play. In most of other MMORPGS usually only top players have both :)
So, in the conclusion, entry barrier and toughness of the game was in the great part one of the keys to success. And we can actually see that the game is going downhill since they have started to make it easier and easier. People who do not put lot of efforts will quit much easier than those who committed themselves. I agree it is niche market of gamers and that EVE can never have player base like WoW and similar. Which does not mean that it cannot have healthy and growing player base, just need to be aware of fundamentals and direct message to the right markets.
Also the consistency meant that even though you had to put lot of efforts, you knew what you will gain. Without consistency there will be no long term commitment by players. If you had asked players 5 or 10 or 12 years ago will they stay and they were aware of such inconsistent moves, I am sure the game would be already dead. Loyalty and respect are earned and you do not earn them with such manners.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Max Caulfield
Contina AG Mauren
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:45:04 -
[591] - Quote
This makes the journey into endgame shorter for those who can afford it. Why make the journey less relevant? |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 12:58:44 -
[592] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Read my both posts on it. P2W is not the main issue. As more sp does not mean win of course. But there are plenty of other issues connected to this, main one being inconsistency. Hence, that's why there's more to that post.
Don ZOLA wrote:And I think you have totally missed the motivation part or you have missed the point of EVE. If it was like that then just give all sp and isk to anyone and they can do whatever they have fantasized. Dreams come true by efforts, dedication, sometimes even luck. Exactly -- just give all SP to all characters.. Then, the game is based on skillfulness, starter corps can be competitive and infiltrate sov if that seems entertaining, newbies can save up for and learn any ship or playstyle they fantasize about, the average cost and size of flown ships increases, KMs abound, and (quite plausibly, with the design of JF) little skirmishes fill systems as if there are a hundred Brave corporations.
Don ZOLA wrote:SP is entry barrier for lazy, non persistent players. What EVE "was" is not the game for them. Because even if you make start easier, as soon as it gets bit harder they will quit. CCP needs to address their marketing different way. Not just by showing nice graphic, stories and explosions but with challenging potential new players with asking them in advance "Do you have what it takes? Are you ready to give your blood and your sweat to make in impact in this space" etc. If it's so simple to quit just because the game is "easier", are you saying you're quitting? Because, unless so, that's obviously incongruent. The game has depth, which is why subs come. If they show up and their characters are limited, and the game seems shallow because of it, why would they stay? Why would they recruit for a sandbox that gates them out of interesting content? Maybe you're saying that just fresh subs would quit if they found the game easier, but again -- prove it. Show (even slightly-relevant) studies. In fact, the whole idea of the game having better gameplay, or so, because of SP is completely fabricated. It's like saying that subs would come because they don't have to grind for XP. Yet, XP is completely unnecessary -- there's already a grind for, and loss of, ships and items. SP is no attracting feature for some 99% of the gaming demographic, the sandbox is. "Let the boys play." |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:18:20 -
[593] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And I think you have totally missed the motivation part or you have missed the point of EVE. If it was like that then just give all sp and isk to anyone and they can do whatever they have fantasized. Dreams come true by efforts, dedication, sometimes even luck. Exactly -- just give all SP to all characters.. Then, the game is based on skillfulness, starter corps can be competitive and infiltrate sov if that seems entertaining, newbies can save up for and learn any ship or playstyle they fantasize about, the average cost and size of flown ships increases, KMs abound, and (quite plausibly, with the design of JF) little skirmishes fill systems as if there are a hundred Brave corporations.
There are already games like that in the market, Counter Strike Gungame mode? That`s not What EVE is about.
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:SP is entry barrier for lazy, non persistent players. What EVE "was" is not the game for them. Because even if you make start easier, as soon as it gets bit harder they will quit. CCP needs to address their marketing different way. Not just by showing nice graphic, stories and explosions but with challenging potential new players with asking them in advance "Do you have what it takes? Are you ready to give your blood and your sweat to make in impact in this space" etc. If it's so simple to quit just because the game is "easier", are you saying you're quitting? Because, unless so, that's obviously incongruent. The game has depth, which is why subs come. If they show up and their characters are limited, and the game seems shallow because of it, why would they stay? Why would they recruit for a sandbox that gates them out of interesting content? Maybe you're saying that just fresh subs would quit if they found the game easier, but again -- prove it. Show (even slightly-relevant) studies. In fact, the whole idea of the game having better gameplay, or so, because of SP is completely fabricated. It's like saying that subs would come because they don't have to grind for XP. Yet, XP is completely unnecessary -- there's already a grind for, and loss of, ships and items. SP is no attracting feature for some 99% of the gaming demographic, the sandbox is. "Let the boys play."
Because if they think the game is shallow that just means they are shallow or with too low iq to be able to see all the depth of the game. People can be aware of it by reading reviews, getting info from other players, tutorials, etc. And if they are shallow, they will probably not stick with the game anyway.
You do not need studies from me, you can see it on live example - EVE is declining while they are making game easier and easier. As I mentioned, EVE is niche game and as such targets niche gamers as well. Either make it CS gungame and see the result or stick to fundamentals and develop content further. SP is what enables sandbox to the full. Therefore they are correlated and quitting on that model would mean the change to the game fundamentals. Then it ceases to be what it was and becomes something new. And this change is different from ingame changes as this change is related to customer-service model which affects whole business model.
It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end. If you provide everyone end game, you will take the joy of the journey and even though it might be considered tough journey for some, plenty of people still playing this game after years and years actually prove it.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:25:49 -
[594] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And I think you have totally missed the motivation part or you have missed the point of EVE. If it was like that then just give all sp and isk to anyone and they can do whatever they have fantasized. Dreams come true by efforts, dedication, sometimes even luck. Exactly -- just give all SP to all characters.. Then, the game is based on skillfulness, starter corps can be competitive and infiltrate sov if that seems entertaining, newbies can save up for and learn any ship or playstyle they fantasize about, the average cost and size of flown ships increases, KMs abound, and (quite plausibly, with the design of JF) little skirmishes fill systems as if there are a hundred Brave corporations. There are already games like that in the market, Counter Strike Gungame mode? That`s not What EVE is about. A hundred Brave corporations isn't what EVE is about!?
Dror wrote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:35:10 -
[595] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:And I think you have totally missed the motivation part or you have missed the point of EVE. If it was like that then just give all sp and isk to anyone and they can do whatever they have fantasized. Dreams come true by efforts, dedication, sometimes even luck. Exactly -- just give all SP to all characters.. Then, the game is based on skillfulness, starter corps can be competitive and infiltrate sov if that seems entertaining, newbies can save up for and learn any ship or playstyle they fantasize about, the average cost and size of flown ships increases, KMs abound, and (quite plausibly, with the design of JF) little skirmishes fill systems as if there are a hundred Brave corporations. There are already games like that in the market, Counter Strike Gungame mode? That`s not What EVE is about. A hundred Brave corporations isn't what EVE is about!? Dror wrote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery.
Getting everything on the plate is not what EVE is about. There were always hundred brave corporations out there. Were they flying rifters or avatars, does not matter. There is fun in every phase of eve, if you cannot find it then maybe just change the game.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 13:39:04 -
[596] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:There are already games like that in the market, Counter Strike Gungame mode? That`s not What EVE is about. A hundred Brave corporations isn't what EVE is about!? Dror wrote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery. Getting everything on the plate is not what EVE is about. There were always hundred brave corporations out there. Were they flying rifters or avatars, does not matter. There is fun in every phase of eve, if you cannot find it then maybe just change the game. Yet, Brave got burnt out -- before the SP announcement. What's the reasoning, then? ..That they got bored of being ineffective and stuck with static progression, or can you really make this not about motivation? Can you really evidence that limiting content is effective for increasing it? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
52
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 13:48:53 -
[597] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:There are already games like that in the market, Counter Strike Gungame mode? That`s not What EVE is about. A hundred Brave corporations isn't what EVE is about!? Dror wrote:You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery. Getting everything on the plate is not what EVE is about. There were always hundred brave corporations out there. Were they flying rifters or avatars, does not matter. There is fun in every phase of eve, if you cannot find it then maybe just change the game. Yet, Brave got burnt out -- before the SP announcement. What's the reasoning, then? ..That they got bored of being ineffective and stuck with static progression, or can you really make this not about motivation? Can you really evidence that limiting content is effective for increasing it?
Do you think they will get back because of it? There are plenty of reasons people quit, let me name just a few: obligations, family, job, finding out more interesting games, not enjoying the current one, experiencing all aspects of the game and not finding any worthy to stay etc.
Content which is needed for last one to stay is not SP, they know they will reach it anyway. They do not have to quit because of that, skill their chars without even playing - one of the beauties of the game. But they do not expect it will bring them any additional fun in the future since they do not have fun game content to use it for. And that is what kind of content CCP should focus on.
Can you really evidence it is not?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 14:11:50 -
[598] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Yet, Brave got burnt out -- before the SP announcement. What's the reasoning, then? ..That they got bored of being ineffective and stuck with static progression, or can you really make this not about motivation? Can you really evidence that limiting content is effective for increasing it? Do you think they will get back because of it? There are plenty of reasons people quit, let me name just a few: obligations, family, job, finding out more interesting games, not enjoying the current one, experiencing all aspects of the game and not finding any worthy to stay etc. Content which is needed for last one to stay is not SP, they know they will reach it anyway. They do not have to quit because of that, skill their chars without even playing - one of the beauties of the game. But they do not expect it will bring them any additional fun in the future since they do not have fun game content to use it for. And that is what kind of content CCP should focus on. Can you really evidence it is not? Now you're just making generalizations -- yet deflecting and avoiding the question. What if sov only found frigate-level play coming at them? Would they get bored? I'm not asking if subs can get bored, I'm asking why. I can find logic with it: would you play Freelancer if it was as gated as this game? Of course, you wouldn't. Why suggest that they should here?
Yes, I obviously can evidence that arbitrarily limiting resources reduces motivation, from everything that discusses it:
Quote:Creativity-friendly constraints include (1) a clear problem definition with clear goals, like the specific challenges of on-line innovation competitions, or the Iron Chef GÇ£secret ingredientGÇ¥ constraints; and (2) a truly urgent, challenging need, like bringing the Apollo 13 astronauts safely back to earth. But intentionally strangling resources below a sufficient level, in a misguided effort to spur new thinking, will likely spawn only aborted attempts at innovation. The same goes for constraints that straightjacket the autonomy needed to passionately search for new solutions.
Japanese haiku, a lovely and time-honored art form, is full of tight constraints; the classic three-line poem must have five syllables, then seven syllables, then five more. But, because the form offers a clear and challenging set of parameters, and because thereGÇÖs no scarcity of words in any language, creativity can blossom. How would you criticize links but support SP? It's the same type of power projection. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 14:59:04 -
[599] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Yet, Brave got burnt out -- before the SP announcement. What's the reasoning, then? ..That they got bored of being ineffective and stuck with static progression, or can you really make this not about motivation? Can you really evidence that limiting content is effective for increasing it? Do you think they will get back because of it? There are plenty of reasons people quit, let me name just a few: obligations, family, job, finding out more interesting games, not enjoying the current one, experiencing all aspects of the game and not finding any worthy to stay etc. Content which is needed for last one to stay is not SP, they know they will reach it anyway. They do not have to quit because of that, skill their chars without even playing - one of the beauties of the game. But they do not expect it will bring them any additional fun in the future since they do not have fun game content to use it for. And that is what kind of content CCP should focus on. Can you really evidence it is not? Now you're just making generalizations -- yet deflecting and avoiding the question. What if sov only found frigate-level play coming at them? Would they get bored? I'm not asking if subs can get bored, I'm asking why. I can find logic with it: would you play Freelancer if it was as gated as this game? Of course, you wouldn't. Why suggest that they should here? Yes, I obviously can evidence that arbitrarily limiting resources reduces motivation, from everything that discusses it: Quote:Creativity-friendly constraints include (1) a clear problem definition with clear goals, like the specific challenges of on-line innovation competitions, or the Iron Chef GÇ£secret ingredientGÇ¥ constraints; and (2) a truly urgent, challenging need, like bringing the Apollo 13 astronauts safely back to earth. But intentionally strangling resources below a sufficient level, in a misguided effort to spur new thinking, will likely spawn only aborted attempts at innovation. The same goes for constraints that straightjacket the autonomy needed to passionately search for new solutions.
Japanese haiku, a lovely and time-honored art form, is full of tight constraints; the classic three-line poem must have five syllables, then seven syllables, then five more. But, because the form offers a clear and challenging set of parameters, and because thereGÇÖs no scarcity of words in any language, creativity can blossom. How would you criticize links but support SP? It's the same type of power projection.
I am not deflecting or avoiding the question as I cannot speak for all. I have no idea what would people feel like if there was only frigate level play in sov, I think it would be fun, yet it would add "unnatural" limitation to the game. On the other hand, SP is realistic limitation. As in RL you are not born with knowledge of everything and you need to work on it in order to strengthen your capabilities and go in depth in some aspects which interest you.
Why people get bored? Lack of fun, gain, honor...
As far as I know and that might be wrong freelancer is different type of game, more like space flying sim? And I am not sure what it has to do with previous comments since that is totally different genre. But I have nothing against gated games as I actually enjoy being persistent bugger if I like the game. If you are referring to my statement that people should play some other games I see that perfectly valid as gamers have different preferences. Some prefer fast paced games, some don`t, some like challenges, some don`t etc. So EVE is definitely not the game for everyone.
Regarding to the "evidence" you have brought up, I feel it simply does not relate to everyone. People are not the same and while majority of herd follows some things that does not mean everyone does. It is same with EVE, as I stated it is niche game with its own niche public. I have to add that SP does not limit content, content is there unrelated to your personal SP. You just potentially "unlock" more content with more SP without meaning that you will go for it. Simple example - I have gallente carrier 5 and I have more then enough isk to buy mothership but I never found interest in that. Only reason I have purchased thanatos is to move my stuff through space fast. Ie I use it as a mere transport ship. Same with titans, I can afford titan + skill, yet I do not want it. Ie content is unlocked but it does not create any additional benefit for me. Some would say I am crazy but that is my choice in this sandbox. Same like I cannot understand someone can enjoy blob warfare but it is his cup of tea, simple as that. So it is quite individual choice what content you want to "unlock". So EVE was always the game for people with other preferences than standard MMORPGs and those players pushed its success. CCP should focus on finding more of similar niche players and add more content in means of fun, gain, honor. And then the game will grow healthy way.
With SP system yea accomplish things over time and that way you "bond" with the game. It is just important to create fun content for players on that journey and that will make them loyal customers. And to have consistency on fundamentals of course. As everyone who plans to commit to something in the long run wants it.
I am sorry but I do not understand your last question, which links you are referring to?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:52:28 -
[600] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I am not deflecting or avoiding the question as I cannot speak for all. I have no idea what would people feel like if there was only frigate level play in sov, I think it would be fun, yet it would add "unnatural" limitation to the game. On the other hand, SP is realistic limitation. As in RL you are not born with knowledge of everything and you need to work on it in order to strengthen your capabilities and go in depth in some aspects which interest you. The question is, "What if sov was only challenged by frigate-level play?", even if they still have the option of advanced ships, capitals, etc. The point is that they would get bored because that's no challenge.
Without SP, ships wouldn't just appear from nowhere -- they'd have to be produced and earned the same. They still have to be flown well and strategically.
Don ZOLA wrote: I have to add that SP does not limit content, content is there unrelated to your personal SP. You just potentially "unlock" more content with more SP without meaning that you will go for it. .. it does not create any additional benefit. Then why can't a corp like Brave, even if with the help of others, take the sov from Goons or similar? There's a power level for each class of ship, and that's effectiveness. Why would a sandbox game seem interesting if everything from ship progression through industrialization was limited? That's the content: gameplay.. strategy. That's the feature list -- that's why subs come.
Links? Increasing power through SP availability? ..Increased speed, tank, and efficiency? That's what SP does ordinarily, and it undermines player skillfulness by making ships perform worse and by limiting industrialization. It's obvious that more options lead to more counters (which is undock potential). More to learn is more to play. More to play is more to be competitive with..
Dror wrote:You're trying to imply that motivation and creativity naturally thrive through ineffective stats and locked game exploration. You're trying to imply that getting buddies in to an immensely gated game is some sort of probability. In their videos, CCP states that intrinsic motivation is much more helpful for creativity and engagement, and this is researched abundantly. Intrinsic motivation is the will to mastery, from freedom of choice, and for the socialization that the game promotes through its economy and its strategy. Extrinsic motivation is of an external reward, playing the game to get a ship or to find esteem. The problem with SP is that it doesn't inherently provide either. In fact, it removes options for both. The point is that limiting the mastery and depth of the game because YOU imply the game isn't interesting enough to hold players is completely ludicrous, and it's based on nothing. |
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Cardcaptor Sakura
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:59:48 -
[601] - Quote
the idea is ok. just have restrictions. the skill points given cannot be used on certain skills..that allow you to pilot caps and supers or modules that only those can use. (i.e. caldari titan or caldari dreadnaught...doomsday operation, etc.)
Also, cannot be used on T2 ships (ie. you can use it for caldari cruiser..but NOT heavy assault cruiser or heavy interdiction cruser)
totally ok with giving them acess to T1 battleships and smaller on day one...but not T2 or caps and supers.
everything else is ok. |
Utencil
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:50:56 -
[602] - Quote
How about they just limit the SP transfers to pilot that has 20m or below SP. |
Mai Khumm
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
684
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 17:54:04 -
[603] - Quote
When we unlearn skills, I seriously hope we get the skill books back!
I'd like to unlearn alot of **** that's completely useless....even some Capital skills. But, I don't want to write off the expensive skillbooks!
Toronto EVE Thread!
[email protected]
@Toronto_EVE
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
70
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:06:50 -
[604] - Quote
Dror wrote:The question is, "What if sov was only challenged by frigate-level play?", even if they still have the option of advanced ships, capitals, etc. The point is that they would get bored because that's no challenge.
Without SP, ships wouldn't just appear from nowhere -- they'd have to be produced and earned the same. They still have to be flown well and strategically.
I think it would actually be quite of challenge and a lots of fun, but since it would exclude too big "natural" part of eve with all ship classes it would be wrong.
Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.
+You become same as everyone else, individuality is lost, everyone can do everything. Of course there is some difference due to personal skills but the big chunk of individual identity is gone.
Dror wrote:Then why can't a corp like Brave, even if with the help of others, take the sov from Goons or similar? There's a power level for each class of ship, and that's effectiveness. Why would a sandbox game seem interesting if everything from ship progression through industrialization was limited? That's the content: gameplay.. strategy. That's the feature list -- that's why subs come.
It takes time, dedication and efforts. The very same goons 6-7 years ago were bunch of newbs flying around in cheap frigates, dying like lemmings across the universe. But they had what it takes to became what they are now and they became that by waging war on the strongest entities in the game which surpassed them greatly by sp and isk.
Dror wrote:Links? Increasing power through SP availability? ..Increased speed, tank, and efficiency? That's what SP does ordinarily, and it undermines player skillfulness by making ships perform worse and by limiting industrialization. It's obvious that more options lead to more counters (which is undock potential). More to learn is more to play. More to play is more to be competitive with..
I do not get the point. Links are items as any other in the game, used to remotely boost gang performances. Same as remote reppers remotely boost someones tanking skills. And those skills on their own are "boosted" by the higher levels. Ie guns do more dmg because of skills, boosters boost more etc. So any modules effect is boosted through sp availability?
Skills develop with time, so does SP. Of course there will be some extremely talented people who will actually suffer some until they get to needed sp to maximize items performances but they are still rare and they have to fit in the gameplay as it is for everyone.
Dror wrote:You're trying to imply that motivation and creativity naturally thrive through ineffective stats and locked game exploration. You're trying to imply that getting buddies in to an immensely gated game is some sort of probability.
What kind of motivation is needed to get something instantly? Which effort is that motivation used for in such case? I think that intrinsic motivation actually pushes you to get a ship or find esteem and extrinsic motivation ie external award is in fun, gain, honor. And I believe that sp it inherently provide that inner feeling of accomplishment. No one is limiting the mastery and depth of the game it just takes effort and time to get to there. I think it would be counter productive to provide it since start, mots of people would briefly try out everything, fail in the most of those tries as they have no game knowledge, get bored fast and quit.
I do not imply that game is not interesting. I think that CCP should provide more content for players who are too lazy to fund fun on their own while training. As we can see on above goons example, they have started like anyone else and they get involved in the game from the start. Ie they had fun while they were training all those skills. They have created it for themselves. Of course there are plenty of lazy people, so if they do not have someone in corp to organize it for them they will never look for fun on their own. And that is their own fault. But it is CCP`s job to handle it if they want to keep them. Or realize that only that 10% are the niche players which are really needed. So just increase the marketing reach to the masses and hope 10% stays :)
If the game was not interesting it would be dead already?
P.S. I do not think we will be able to agree on this subject as we have completely different POV`s on the game. It seems to me that you want instant fun while I strongly stand with opinion that would be against EVE`s nature for the game. If it was like that it would never become what it is. Toughness and complexity is what is needed in my opinion. That will never create players base with 7 digits but that is fine, niche game for niche players. And it is completely fine to disagree, would be stupid if people would agree on everything :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:29:31 -
[605] - Quote
Emboldened replies:
Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:The question is, "What if sov was only challenged by frigate-level play?", even if they still have the option of advanced ships, capitals, etc. The point is that they would get bored because that's no challenge.
Without SP, ships wouldn't just appear from nowhere -- they'd have to be produced and earned the same. They still have to be flown well and strategically. I think it would actually be quite of challenge and a lots of fun, but since it would exclude too big "natural" part of eve with all ship classes it would be wrong. You're deflecting. It limits the scope of the game, which is the reason for the analogy.Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor. More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.+You become same as everyone else, individuality is lost, everyone can do everything. Of course there is some difference due to personal skills but the big chunk of individual identity is gone. Alts can be purchased just the same now. With the SP announcement, there's much less personalization from SP, at least up through some amount. There's no basis for saying that "character uniqueness" is worth limiting interest, mastery, and depth.Dror wrote:Then why can't a corp like Brave, even if with the help of others, take the sov from Goons or similar? There's a power level for each class of ship, and that's effectiveness. Why would a sandbox game seem interesting if everything from ship progression through industrialization was limited? That's the content: gameplay.. strategy. That's the feature list -- that's why subs come. It takes time, dedication and efforts. The very same goons 6-7 years ago were bunch of newbs flying around in cheap frigates, dying like lemmings across the universe. But they had what it takes to became what they are now and they became that by waging war on the strongest entities in the game which surpassed them greatly by sp and isk. The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.[snipped for space] Dror wrote:You're trying to imply that motivation and creativity naturally thrive through ineffective stats and locked game exploration. You're trying to imply that getting buddies in to an immensely gated game is some sort of probability. What kind of motivation is needed to get something instantly? Which effort is that motivation used for in such case? How is it instant if they have to get the ISK for it (and if it has to be produced)? There's no reason to imply that any decent percentage of subs can PLEX their way through faction BSs and T3s. There also has to be that ISK supply (and PLEX demand). The motivation is playing the game -- saving up for a ship that they've never flown -- figuring out how to fit it -- figuring out how to fly it -- finding a fleet for its support. It's really simple and obvious. You would engage those newbies, but you won't suggest that they have decent stats and unlocks?I think that intrinsic motivation actually pushes you to get a ship or find esteem and extrinsic motivation ie external award is in fun, gain, honor. And I believe that sp it inherently provide that inner feeling of accomplishment. Intrinsic motivation can push subs to play more -- that's perfect. There's nothing for it to push if there are no ships to fly. SP isn't gameplay -- there's no mastery -- there's no choice because of limitations -- and there's limited socialization because those starter characters have no throughput.No one is limiting the mastery and depth of the game it just takes effort and time to get to there. I think it would be counter productive to provide it since start, mots of people would briefly try out everything, fail in the most of those tries as they have no game knowledge, get bored fast and quit. How is that even plausible? There are hundreds of ships, and many more fitting options.
You say there's no limit on depth and mastery, but counter the same in that statement...But it is CCP`s job to handle it if they want to keep them. Or realize that only that 10% are the niche players which are really needed. So just increase the marketing reach to the masses and hope 10% stays :) P.S. I do not think we will be able to agree on this subject as we have completely different POV`s on the game. It seems to me that you want instant fun while I strongly stand with opinion that would be against EVE`s nature for the game. If it was like that it would never become what it is. Toughness and complexity is what is needed in my opinion. That will never create players base with 7 digits but that is fine, niche game for niche players. And it is completely fine to disagree, would be stupid if people would agree on everything :) There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.
It's of no decent prerogative to imply that the game should have few players and little content (and for reasons you apparently can't explain).
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
73
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Posted - 2015.10.16 20:27:01 -
[606] - Quote
You're deflecting. It limits the scope of the game, which is the reason for the analogy.
I am not. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way.
Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.
More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.
Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk. And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing.
Alts can be purchased just the same now. With the SP announcement, there's much less personalization from SP, at least up through some amount. There's no basis for saying that "character uniqueness" is worth limiting interest, mastery, and depth.
I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction.
The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.
That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle.
And my point was not their current state of affairs but their beginnings, when they had their fun regardless of their lack of skills or sp. Ie the point is that you always can have fun if you organize yourself, if you are pro active.
How is it instant if they have to get the ISK for it (and if it has to be produced)? There's no reason to imply that any decent percentage of subs can PLEX their way through faction BSs and T3s. There also has to be that ISK supply (and PLEX demand). The motivation is playing the game -- saving up for a ship that they've never flown -- figuring out how to fit it -- figuring out how to fly it -- finding a fleet for its support. It's really simple and obvious. You would engage those newbies, but you won't suggest that they have decent stats and unlocks?
I have replied with this referring to your idea of "unlocking" everything for everyone in order to give them full mastery/content/depth. As mentioned above, isk is quite easy to make nowadays, so it would not be major limiting factor except for supercapitals or extremely expensive fits. I have no problem engaging anyone, dying to others regardless of your skills & sp is part of the game and what made EVE what it is.
Intrinsic motivation can push subs to play more -- that's perfect. There's nothing for it to push if there are no ships to fly. SP isn't gameplay -- there's no mastery -- there's no choice because of limitations -- and there's limited socialization because those starter characters have no throughput.
But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships. It is up to you what will you fly and how will you use it. And there is always space for motivation to kick in and push to train for additional ones. I really do not want to go in explaining why it would be wrong to "unlock" everything from the start. If that is what you feel then we really have nothing to discuss. There is always choice, you can find ways to have fun regardless of "limits".
Limited socialization in what sense? Since the start players are placed in corporations and their social "life" depends only on them and their social skills.
How is that even plausible? There are hundreds of ships, and many more fitting options.
You say there's no limit on depth and mastery, but counter the same in that statement.
There is no limit, it just takes time. Game for patient and persistent people :) Simple as that.
There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.
I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone.
It's of no decent prerogative to imply that the game should have few players and little content (and for reasons you apparently can't explain).
I never said that game should have few players. But being niche game it`s target audience is quite different from other games. Differentiation has made it what it is. And there is plenty of content for those who are not lazy to be pro active. There is not much content for the ones who want everything on the plate. And I think I explained pretty much everything I mentioned, not sure which part you have missed.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.10.16 21:21:37 -
[607] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way. So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor. Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.] Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk. And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing. If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction. Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.-- [The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.] That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle. You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships. Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.] I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone. It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience?
|
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
73
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 22:32:43 -
[608] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way. So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor. Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.] Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk. And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing. If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction. Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.-- [The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.] That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle. You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships. Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.] I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone. It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience?
Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game.
It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is.
Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 10:48:13 -
[609] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way. So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor. Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.] Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk. And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing. If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction. Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.-- [The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.] That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle. You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships. Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.] I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone. It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience? Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game. It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is. Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day. That game contrast is a false equivalence. This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:17:52 -
[610] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way. So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor. Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.] Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk. And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing. If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction. Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.-- [The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.] That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle. You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships. Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.] I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone. It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience? Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game. It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is. Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day. That game contrast is a false equivalence. This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production.
I agree. And that`s how it was since the start (except much harder to earn than nowadays) and no one complained about it, instead we made this game what it is.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:28:21 -
[611] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way. So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor. Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.] Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk. And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing. If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction. Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.-- [The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.] That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle. You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships. Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.] I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone. It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience? Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game. It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is. Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day. That game contrast is a false equivalence. This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production. I agree. And that`s how it was since the start (except much harder to earn than nowadays) and no one complained about it, instead we made this game what it is. That's exactly how it would be without an XP system, of sorts, and its limiting character progression and interest in playing the game (effectively). There are still limits to capitals. That scarcity -- which comes from abundance -- improves logistics depth. That is, more capitals and expensive ships being purchased makes industry a strategic niche. Newbies flying a capital-level doctrine not only allows the infiltration of sov, but also improves everything about their experience -- from their value through what they get to learn. This is also content for veterans. It's win-win. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:38:09 -
[612] - Quote
Dror wrote:
I agree. And that`s how it was since the start (except much harder to earn than nowadays) and no one complained about it, instead we made this game what it is.
That's exactly how it would be without an XP system, of sorts, and its limiting character progression and interest in playing the game (effectively). There are still limits to capitals. That scarcity -- which comes from abundance -- improves logistics depth. That is, more capitals and expensive ships being purchased makes industry a strategic niche. Newbies flying a capital-level doctrine not only allows the infiltration of sov, but also improves everything about their experience -- from their value through what they get to learn. This is also content for veterans. It's win-win.[/quote]
I have already answered why i think its totally wrong. So we are back to wasting each others time, therefore I`m out, have a nice day :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 11:41:03 -
[613] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:I have already answered why i think its totally wrong. So we are back to wasting each others time, therefore I`m out, have a nice day :) Yet, then you agreed that the contrast made, about CS, is a false equivalence. So, what is it? |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
80
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:01:31 -
[614] - Quote
Dror wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:I have already answered why i think its totally wrong. So we are back to wasting each others time, therefore I`m out, have a nice day :) Yet, then you agreed that the contrast made, about CS, is a false equivalence. So, what is it?
Sorry, I have not replied properly as I was in rush. I agreed to the 2nd sentence - This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
|
Don Pera Saissore
53
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:05:52 -
[615] - Quote
Dont do it CCP, dont turn this game in to **** |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
697
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 13:47:30 -
[616] - Quote
Great change CCP +1
Thanks for allowing those of us who missed the bus the first couple of times around to get on board and finally arrive at our destinations.
Try to ignore all the selfish people letting their imaginations get the better of them. |
Cardcaptor Sakura
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:44:59 -
[617] - Quote
Would like to reiterate how much of a disaster this would be... If thing goes through.. Then ANYBODY..can just buy a bunch of these skill packs..(even one day old, first time players)....AND INSTANTLY GET TITAN PILOTING SKILLS WITHOUT EFFORT...
PAY TO WIN...TOO OP
Titans are beastly monsters and rightfully....RIGHTFULLY require half a year of training to even be able to pilot just the ship itself. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:11:42 -
[618] - Quote
Cardcaptor Sakura wrote:Would like to reiterate how much of a disaster this would be... If thing goes through.. Then ANYBODY..can just buy a bunch of these skill packs..(even one day old, first time players)....AND INSTANTLY GET TITAN PILOTING SKILLS WITHOUT EFFORT...
PAY TO WIN...TOO OP
Titans are beastly monsters and rightfully....RIGHTFULLY require half a year of training to even be able to pilot just the ship itself.
Wrong thread buddy, also your end of world view is cancerous for eve, soo, stop, just stop. |
Tyrant Scorn
196
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:54:43 -
[619] - Quote
F*ck CCP, what took you so long to even implement this in the first place. The next step would be to unlearn skills, so you can sort of remap your skill tree... LIKE EVERY OTHER MMO currently available.
I am happy to see CCP is catching up with the 90's... I mean. with 2015...
Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast
Eve Online Hold 'Em | EveTimeCode.com | GameTimeZone.com
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Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:07:46 -
[620] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:As a bitter vet, owner of ~244mil sp on main char and probably ~1bil on all chars i think this is great idea. CCP please read carefully to understand why: ......... Decade ago, EVE was elitist game, we laughed to other grinding MMORPGs. Now, EVE is slowly turning in one of them. Everyone wanted to PVP back then, even though it was much tougher to make isk for lost ships. Nowadays the most of the players are "scared" to do so as someone might see their losses and make fun of them. Or simply because they do not want their "losing" to be public, if there is no API they can always deny it :) They will rather wait for certain win scenarios so they can boost their kb stats. Which are rarely related to their skills... And meanwhile just grind isk for bigger ships, not realizing that "you are not your ship" rule :). Same will be with sp, they will rush to get more and more, without knowing that sp do not equal skills. .....................
TL; DR
NO
Get better advisers.
You and your elitist friends can GT*O no one cares. Even CCP doesnt. Seriously. People like you should just quit and let the community build better environment.
You are selfish. You think having higher Sp than majority of people is something valuable in your narrowed mind. And you want CPP to help you keep that narsist feelings and boost your ego.
People in Eve who is normal unlike you, doesnt care how much Sp other players does. People are playing to have some fun. They socialize with other people, do some events together with their friends and if i can have some more Sp as much as my wallet let me, i can have more by flying variable ships for different fleet composition.
Right now new people below at least 15-20 mil sp, are very short on options. You will have situation where you cant compete just because you cant fly something you need. And for newbros its even worst. You hardly find someone to do pvp who cant rekt your frigate. For those people at least this update will give you a great boost to catch up older player.
Just because you are older player shouldnt mean you should be at the top and unreachable point. This is a sick mind. Current skilling system is bad and we all suffered/suffering. So you want every other player suffer too. I really have sympathy for people like you. I would expect you to hang yourself just because not borned with some gifts that makes you "elite" over other people around you.
"OMG 1 DAY OLD CHAR IN TITAN CPP PLSSS" tears giving me giggles. Like titan comes with sp and like there isnt enough players flying them. On the other hand i dont give a sh*t about 1 day old character flying titan. I just want to have more fun thats it. Most of the players want the same thing. Nobody cares how much sp you have and how much any other player can have after this change. But you care about this. Because you want other people to stay behind you. So you can blow their t1 hulls. Because you are older player. You have right to do....
I am hoping CCP doesnt give a fcuk about you egoist people and make Eve better, reachable for new players so we can have more people to interact with. |
|
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 11:11:19 -
[621] - Quote
sorry double post |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
119
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:03:29 -
[622] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:As a bitter vet, owner of ~244mil sp on main char and probably ~1bil on all chars i think this is great idea. CCP please read carefully to understand why: ......... Decade ago, EVE was elitist game, we laughed to other grinding MMORPGs. Now, EVE is slowly turning in one of them. Everyone wanted to PVP back then, even though it was much tougher to make isk for lost ships. Nowadays the most of the players are "scared" to do so as someone might see their losses and make fun of them. Or simply because they do not want their "losing" to be public, if there is no API they can always deny it :) They will rather wait for certain win scenarios so they can boost their kb stats. Which are rarely related to their skills... And meanwhile just grind isk for bigger ships, not realizing that "you are not your ship" rule :). Same will be with sp, they will rush to get more and more, without knowing that sp do not equal skills. .....................
TL; DR
NO
Get better advisers. You and your elitist friends can GT*O no one cares. Even CCP doesnt. Seriously. People like you should just quit and let the community build better environment. You are selfish. You think having higher Sp than majority of people is something valuable in your narrowed mind. And you want CPP to help you keep that narsist feelings and boost your ego. People in Eve who is normal unlike you, doesnt care how much Sp other players does. People are playing to have some fun. They socialize with other people, do some events together with their friends and if i can have some more Sp as much as my wallet let me, i can have more by flying variable ships for different fleet composition. Right now new people below at least 15-20 mil sp, are very short on options. You will have situation where you cant compete just because you cant fly something you need. And for newbros its even worst. You hardly find someone to do pvp who cant rekt your frigate. For those people at least this update will give you a great boost to catch up older player. Just because you are older player shouldnt mean you should be at the top and unreachable point. This is a sick mind. Current skilling system is bad and we all suffered/suffering. So you want every other player suffer too. I really have sympathy for people like you. I would expect you to hang yourself just because not borned with some gifts that makes you "elite" over other people around you. "OMG 1 DAY OLD CHAR IN TITAN CPP PLSSS" tears giving me giggles. Like titan comes with sp and like there isnt enough players flying them. On the other hand i dont give a sh*t about 1 day old character flying titan. I just want to have more fun thats it. Most of the players want the same thing. Nobody cares how much sp you have and how much any other player can have after this change. But you care about this. Because you want other people to stay behind you. So you can blow their t1 hulls. Because you are older player. You have right to do.... I am hoping CCP doesnt give a fcuk about you egoist people and make Eve better, reachable for new players so we can have more people to interact with. Edit: As someone who says " sp doesnt equal to skill" i guess you are afraid of getting your arse kicked by newer player who is just better then you and your elite friends. That make sense now
I am sorry that your reading skills are so weak and not able to make you comprehend all side effects. Guess what, CCP will probably protect top players in the end but it still does not make me happy. Do you know why? Because whole thing is not good for the game. Why? You would know if you had actually read what i wrote without going berserk.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:05:46 -
[623] - Quote
You and your elitist friends can GT*O no one cares. Even CCP doesnt. Seriously. People like you should just quit and let the community build better environment.
You are selfish. You think having higher Sp than majority of people is something valuable in your narrowed mind. And you want CPP to help you keep that narsist feelings and boost your ego.
People in Eve who is normal unlike you, doesnt care how much Sp other players does. People are playing to have some fun. They socialize with other people, do some events together with their friends and if i can have some more Sp as much as my wallet let me, i can have more by flying variable ships for different fleet composition.
Right now new people below at least 15-20 mil sp, are very short on options. You will have situation where you cant compete just because you cant fly something you need. And for newbros its even worst. You hardly find someone to do pvp who cant rekt your frigate. For those people at least this update will give you a great boost to catch up older player.
Just because you are older player shouldnt mean you should be at the top and unreachable point. This is a sick mind. Current skilling system is bad and we all suffered/suffering. So you want every other player suffer too. I really have sympathy for people like you. I would expect you to hang yourself just because not borned with some gifts that makes you "elite" over other people around you.
"OMG 1 DAY OLD CHAR IN TITAN CPP PLSSS" tears giving me giggles. Like titan comes with sp and like there isnt enough players flying them. On the other hand i dont give a sh*t about 1 day old character flying titan. I just want to have more fun thats it. Most of the players want the same thing. Nobody cares how much sp you have and how much any other player can have after this change. But you care about this. Because you want other people to stay behind you. So you can blow their t1 hulls. Because you are older player. You have right to do....
I am hoping CCP doesnt give a fcuk about you egoist people and make Eve better, reachable for new players so we can have more people to interact with.
Edit: As someone who says " sp doesnt equal to skill" i guess you are afraid of getting your arse kicked by newer player who is just better then you and your elite friends. That make sense now[/quote]
I as a newbie, if this is going to be done, i'll quit playing EVE. And u can't call me "selfish" because i can't be selfish having only 2.2 mil SPs. One of the reasons i play this game is the elitist part of it.
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Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:25:33 -
[624] - Quote
@Singur Augurao
So you basicly want to train your skills slowly to beat newbies easily later on ? Is that what you call elitism ? Because you are not gonna reach top sp level if you implying this by "elitism". So you dont have to wait just quit, because you are not having it. just being more royalist than the king. you are the example of person who is poor yet defend capitalism.
I hope you quit already before update comes. I really dont want to see this kind of mentallity in Eve community.
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Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:31:24 -
[625] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:@Singur Augurao
So you basicly want to train your skills slowly to beat newbies easily later on ? Is that what you call elitism ? Because you are not gonna reach top sp level if you implying this by "elitism". So you dont have to wait just quit, because you are not having it. just being more royalist than the king. you are the example of person who is poor yet defend capitalism.
I hope you quit already before update comes. I really dont want to see this kind of mentallity in Eve community.
And who exactly are you to decide what kind of mentality can be seen in Eve community ? If you think that this game is about "beating people" , well u're wrong. I can recommend you some other popular MMo's played mostly by 13yo kids, where u can skill up faster and getting instant PVP. |
Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:44:46 -
[626] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:
As long as there is new players coming to game its all good. CCP is a business, not an ego booster charity.
What about people leaving the game, because if this is going to go live, people will leave. Just read the whole thread , starting page one.
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Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:46:36 -
[627] - Quote
You dont even answer my question. Guess you dont have one. Not surprised at all. Can ask again tho
"What exactly elitism is?" What do you refer by it in Eve exactly ?
and to your question. I am just a guy in Eve community and i have right to want it be more healthy. But your mentality is not helping. I dont want Eve to be a game that a tool for people to boost their ego. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 12:56:02 -
[628] - Quote
Quote:I can recommend you some other popular MMo's played mostly by 13yo kids, where u can skill up faster and getting instant PVP.
I lol'ed so hard.
Why does skilling up faster does matter ? Pvp is the most competitive content you have in Eve. Its most fun for me. But i cant have it with without at least 2 years of training. Humiliating a game by skilling speed is funny tho. |
Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 13:01:16 -
[629] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:You dont even answer my question. Guess you dont have one. Not surprised at all. Can ask again tho
"What exactly elitism is?" What do you refer by it in Eve exactly ?
and to your question. I am just a guy in Eve community and i have right to want it be more healthy. But your mentality is not helping. I dont want Eve to be a game that a tool for people to boost their ego.
Edit: There are more happy people than salty ones. So doesnt matter how much of them are going to leave. It will be good update for newcomers. So overall its a win situation
I will tell you what is NOT elitism, then you can answer yourself the question. Skilling up for 6,7,8-12 years only to see u'r work , pacience, and pride gone in minutes, well my friend that is just wrong. And has nothing to do with the capitalism you were talking about earlier. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
126
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:19:29 -
[630] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:
@Don ZOLA
Please dont speak like you do care about game. Come on just come clear. You dont need to hide behind that cr*p argument. You just want to boost your ego to higher levels.
and guess what. CCP already showed that they dont have any intention to keep especially older "elite" players by that new SOV rebalance. They are just trying to figure out the way that actually bring more new players to Eve, thats it.
As long as there is new players coming to game its all good. CCP is a business, not an ego booster charity.
Go rage somewhere else, or read/understand side effects mentioned then providfe counter arguments. kktnxbye
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:40:27 -
[631] - Quote
Singur Augurao wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:You dont even answer my question. Guess you dont have one. Not surprised at all. Can ask again tho
"What exactly elitism is?" What do you refer by it in Eve exactly ?
and to your question. I am just a guy in Eve community and i have right to want it be more healthy. But your mentality is not helping. I dont want Eve to be a game that a tool for people to boost their ego.
Edit: There are more happy people than salty ones. So doesnt matter how much of them are going to leave. It will be good update for newcomers. So overall its a win situation I will tell you what is NOT elitism, then you can answer yourself the question. Skilling up for 6,7,8-12 years only to see u'r work , pacience, and pride gone in minutes, well my friend that is just wrong. And has nothing to do with the capitalism you were talking about earlier.
my friend, this a video game not real life. not sure if you have one but eve, since you care much of your "work". Plus, you have no right to limit peoples fun for the sake of your no-lifer goals.
Anyway @Don ZOLA, i tried to read whole thread from start but had to stop due to amount of narrow minded, selfish comments that nothing but "YES to REMAP NO BUYING SP. FCUK THE NEWBIES WHO CARES ANYWAY LOLOL"
I dont even see anyone come up with a better revised idea to help newbies. Just few stupid ideas which would only help players with high SP already. This pretty much sums of the general idea behind the people opposing the change.
I am having so hard time to understand why some newbie guy flying HAC or T3 would hurt you. |
Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:48:19 -
[632] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:
my friend, this a video game not real life. not sure if you have one but eve, since you care about much of your "work". Plus, you have no right to limit peoples fun for the sake of your no-lifer goals.
My convesation with you it's done! I'm sorry i lost valuable time typing stuff to you. You start to get nasty and i'll try not to come down to your "understanding" . |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:06:02 -
[633] - Quote
There is no personal conversation we are doing here. We are talking about facts. And you dont give me a solid reason why its a bad idea. Well you can stop posting tho. You are not going to win this discussion by just saying "No, this is againts my long term ego boost goals".
If you have any reasonable argument worth reading, please feel free to post. But please no more elitism :) Thank you. |
Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.10.19 14:15:30 -
[634] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:There is no personal conversation we are doing here. We are talking about facts. And you dont give me a solid reason why its a bad idea. Well you can stop posting tho. You are not going to win this discussion by just saying "No, this is againts my long term ego boost goals".
If you have any reasonable argument worth reading, please feel free to post. But please no more elitism :) Thank you.
I'm not trying to "win " any conversation here. I tried to explain to you why this idea is wrong, but it seems that i talked to myself. No biggie! Why don't you tell us u'r arguments in this matter, maybe our "amount of narrow minded, selfish comments that nothing but "YES to REMAP NO BUYING SP. FCUK THE NEWBIES WHO CARES ANYWAY LOLOL" are indeed no good for CCP.
Frankly you seem to me like an ex (or actual) WoT player used to talk to people like in that community. Waiting for your reply regarding your solution in this matter. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 14:25:22 -
[635] - Quote
You dont explain anything except keep saying that this damages your elitism. And I told you already no one gives a sh*t about elitism. I thought we passed that stage. So i am typing again in case you didnt understand which seems like you didnt;
Please only post if its worth reading. no more elitism sh*t please. Come up with the better idea to solve the current problem we have here. Then we talk. |
Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.10.19 14:32:05 -
[636] - Quote
Just explained to you earlier why i find this idea wrong . Get the word "elitist" out of u'r head and just read the f...ng text . Meanwhile try to come with a solution yourself, anything will do, just say something constructive instead of offending people.
P.S: how old are you ? |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
1
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Posted - 2015.10.19 14:47:11 -
[637] - Quote
i am not againts the idea so i dont have to come with solution. This is good enough. Might just need a little tweaks. Like limit the amount of sp you can inject at some point maybe.
Quote:I as a newbie, if this is going to be done, i'll quit playing EVE. And u can't call me "selfish" because i can't be selfish having only 2.2 mil SPs. One of the reasons i play this game is the elitist part of it.
dont know what to say. Thats all you said and now you are telling to you just explained. Also how old i am has nothing to do with the topic, not sure why are you asking anyway, however since i dont get any logical response from you, not surprised again. |
Singur Augurao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.10.19 15:03:55 -
[638] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:
dont know what to say. Thats all you said and now you are telling to you just explained...
Just read once again and maybe you will see more than that. Anyway this is my last word to you as i'm certain that you and i can't reach any conclusion and we do not lead this thread to any good direction. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
126
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Posted - 2015.10.19 15:13:05 -
[639] - Quote
Singur Augurao wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:
dont know what to say. Thats all you said and now you are telling to you just explained...
Just read once again and maybe you will see more than that. Anyway this is my last word to you as i'm certain that you and i can't reach any conclusion and we do not lead this thread to any good direction.
He is not able to comprehend what you or me are talking about. Just let him rage on :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
126
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Posted - 2015.10.19 15:15:09 -
[640] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Singur Augurao wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:You dont even answer my question. Guess you dont have one. Not surprised at all. Can ask again tho
"What exactly elitism is?" What do you refer by it in Eve exactly ?
and to your question. I am just a guy in Eve community and i have right to want it be more healthy. But your mentality is not helping. I dont want Eve to be a game that a tool for people to boost their ego.
Edit: There are more happy people than salty ones. So doesnt matter how much of them are going to leave. It will be good update for newcomers. So overall its a win situation I will tell you what is NOT elitism, then you can answer yourself the question. Skilling up for 6,7,8-12 years only to see u'r work , pacience, and pride gone in minutes, well my friend that is just wrong. And has nothing to do with the capitalism you were talking about earlier. I am having so hard time to understand .
I see that . No worries, it is not that important, breath deeply and calm down, everything is going to be fine :)
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
1
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Posted - 2015.10.19 15:49:20 -
[641] - Quote
Yeah twist my posts. Keep trolling. I know everything is going for my way but i am not sorry for you lil elite guy :) |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
127
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Posted - 2015.10.19 15:51:31 -
[642] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Yeah twist my posts. Keep trolling. I know everything is going for my way but i am not sorry for you lil elite guy :)
I`ll be fine, don`t worry. You will never be able to overcome me in SP unless I quit and that makes me happy
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1283
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Posted - 2015.10.19 16:03:06 -
[643] - Quote
I have removed a couple off-topic posts.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
229
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Posted - 2015.10.19 19:38:37 -
[644] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Quote:I can recommend you some other popular MMo's played mostly by 13yo kids, where u can skill up faster and getting instant PVP. I lol'ed so hard. Why does skilling up faster does matter ? Pvp is the most competitive content you have in Eve. Its most fun for me. But i cant have it with without at least 2 years of training. Humiliating a game by skilling speed is funny tho.
this is your problem of perception.
a 5 month old can roam in null with a couple buddy's the same ago and do very well.
With this new SP packs its not going to help the perception just make it worst. It wont be well bring a ewar frig or something small to the cruiser roam it will be just bring what we want and if you cant fly that well just go get skill packs off the market. |
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2015.10.19 19:38:52 -
[645] - Quote
Keras Authion wrote:Posting the Tippia's copypasta for why buying or remapping skillpoints is bad It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. Edit: Here's the old microtransactions vote thread from late 2010, made after the SP reallocation hit the sisi and there was plans for plex for remaps. Note the vote distribution. Actually, this mostly benefits newer characters.
While it might give a sp bonus, it doesn't give an in-game bonus on how to put your new skills/associated modules to use.
The dimishing return on older characters seems suitable.. but when your over 80 million sp... I'm not even going to notice when these hit Jita.
However, this is going to open up more roamers and more ships to wreck from inexperienced pilots stepping into bigger ships :D.
Sacrifice to Bob through the killboards! |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
229
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Posted - 2015.10.19 19:41:53 -
[646] - Quote
Poranius Fisc wrote:Keras Authion wrote:Posting the Tippia's copypasta for why buying or remapping skillpoints is bad It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. Edit: Here's the old microtransactions vote thread from late 2010, made after the SP reallocation hit the sisi and there was plans for plex for remaps. Note the vote distribution. Actually, this mostly benefits newer characters. While it might give a sp bonus, it doesn't give an in-game bonus on how to put your new skills/associated modules to use. The dimishing return on older characters seems suitable.. but when your over 80 million sp... I'm not even going to notice when these hit Jita. However, this is going to open up more roamers and more ships to wreck from inexperienced pilots stepping into bigger ships :D. Sacrifice to Bob through the killboards!
it will also shut more people out because now instead of waiting a couple days to fly something they will feel they have to buy the skill packs and if they are cheap enough for a real new player to afford than they will be cheap enough for the 80+ crowd to just use them willy nilly also. |
Psianh Auvyander
Noir. Mercenary Coalition
127
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Posted - 2015.10.19 21:17:19 -
[647] - Quote
Here are my thoughts on the latest SP discussion. In summary, even if this does help new players (which I don't think that it will be), the impression given to the people it's aimed at will lead to disastrous results.
http://psianhauvyander.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-perception-of-skill-cost.html
CSM X Announcement Thread
My Blog
@wsethbrown
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Poranius Fisc
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2015.10.19 23:11:50 -
[648] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Poranius Fisc wrote:Keras Authion wrote:Posting the Tippia's copypasta for why buying or remapping skillpoints is bad It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. Edit: Here's the old microtransactions vote thread from late 2010, made after the SP reallocation hit the sisi and there was plans for plex for remaps. Note the vote distribution. Actually, this mostly benefits newer characters. While it might give a sp bonus, it doesn't give an in-game bonus on how to put your new skills/associated modules to use. The dimishing return on older characters seems suitable.. but when your over 80 million sp... I'm not even going to notice when these hit Jita. However, this is going to open up more roamers and more ships to wreck from inexperienced pilots stepping into bigger ships :D. Sacrifice to Bob through the killboards! It will also shut more people out because now instead of waiting a couple days to fly something they will feel they have to buy the skill packs and if they are cheap enough for a real new player to afford than they will be cheap enough for the 80+ crowd to just use them willy nilly also. You make a point.. however, how cheap is 500,000 SP? AT 1800 SP per hour, thats 11.5 (rounded down) days of training. How much isk is that worth exactly? If I spent that time doing anoms (even a couple of hours a day), that's a good chunk of isk. if I spent that time mining, it's still a good chunk of isk. If you put it on that level, how much is that training worth to you?
With the current system, this also will create sp farmers (+5 implants to make the sp faster) so they will make it in 7.7 days (rounded down).
So now lets go into market control. If you can make the product more efficiently, you can control how much you put on the market, and therefore bring up prices.
Or you can flood the market with these and plummet prices in a region.
No.. I do not think a newbro will be affording these packets.. and to use more than a few they will reach burnout from mission running to afford them. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
1
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Posted - 2015.10.20 01:47:38 -
[649] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:Quote:I can recommend you some other popular MMo's played mostly by 13yo kids, where u can skill up faster and getting instant PVP. I lol'ed so hard. Why does skilling up faster does matter ? Pvp is the most competitive content you have in Eve. Its most fun for me. But i cant have it with without at least 2 years of training. Humiliating a game by skilling speed is funny tho. this is your problem of perception. a 5 month old can roam in null with a couple buddy's the same ago and do very well. With this new SP packs its not going to help the perception just make it worst. It wont be well bring a ewar frig or something small to the cruiser roam it will be just bring what we want and if you cant fly that well just go get skill packs off the market.
I have never encounter with this kind of behavior its awfull what you are refering here. Nobody would say his friend to go get skill pack or gtfo. Also we already have character bazaar. So if people would say something like you refers, why cant say it now "go buy a new character" ?
@Keras Authion
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
There isnt any point of having the skills begin with already. You just aim on what you want to fly then start leveling those required skills. Nothing complex. So people is buy those packs and inject them instantly and instead of waiting months of training they will have those skills only faster. Nothing is changed
It removes the point of having attributes.
Attributes are also pointless, should be removed from game already. But there is a point after new change. Because not everybody is gonna buy 200 mil sp worth of packs. They will still need to level up new skills they want, so attributes definitely will keep helping.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
read above. same thing.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. What do you mean exaclty by "removes variety". Whats cookie-cutter setups actually ?
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
How does it removes your history of your character? You mean flying deimos instead of thorax would destroy player character and history ? Or you mean being able to fly a ship that already thousands of players fly is not unique?
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
What consequences are we talking about. Are you playing Eve? i am really confused by your poor arguments which isnt related to game. Nobody have to plan for months to start having fun. This is a bad mechanic. Guess what? Thats what CCP trying to fix :)
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. There wil be still progression and achivement if you still want. Nobody forces you to buy those packs. If you want years of training go ahead. We already have character bazaar. Guess what? you can just buy a character who already achieved all those thing you mentioned.
It kills character trading. Its not gonna kill anything. Characters will be keep sold in character because packs will be more expansive as a Sp/Isk wise.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones Nobody god damn care other old players. I dont care if some else will be able to fly all races ship as long as i can fly whatever i want.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do You missed the point. Not sure if you are capable of understand tho. Catching up older player doesnt mean having exatcly the same skill points as older guys have. It means being able to fly doctrines faster. As long as i can fly hac, t3, recon dont give fcuk about older player having 234252344 mil sp. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 01:57:50 -
[650] - Quote
Poranius Fisc wrote:
No.. I do not think a newbro will be affording these packets.. and to use more than a few they will reach burnout from mission running to afford them.
Newbro dont have to reach over 100 mil sp instantly. why is this so hard to understand? Newbro can buy skillpacks whenever he can afford. He can aim for banking to buy few packets to bypass some boring months of training. Or newbro can spend few more bucks which he already does for subscribe.
Not sure if you are mentally awkward or just trolling.
From your perspective newbro cant afford plex either. So he pays for sub plus pays for plex to have some good ships. Thats why you can buy plexes from market. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
928
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:42:55 -
[651] - Quote
Short term will likely see some gains, but I think it's a poor idea long term.
We already have an issue where a new guy feels he must have skills x, y, and a to a certain point before he can begin having fun with the game, and cries that time is a barrier to that fun.
Now we will instead be like all those pay to win Facebook games where you can speed up progress with the direct application of cash. Sure, you don't have to pay, but for just a few bucks here and there you can do more.
This will be followed by updates with op new ships, weapons and other goodies that all require new skills, and skills probably at max levels to use.
If it was all pure ISK, I would be fine, though that introducing a semi-mandatory grind. But it's not. It's Aurum, and that's the more cancerous aspect.
This is the wrong direction to go. Make stats more meaningful, not less. Provide actual trade offs.
This system will devolve the game into a short term, instant gratification cesspool of power creep to keep up the justification of buying all the skillpoints.
This will kill the game in exactly the same fashion as microtransactions have killed every other serious game on the market. Only goofy Short term instant gratification games are 'successful' with this model. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 02:51:51 -
[652] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Short term will likely see some gains, but I think it's a poor idea long term.
We already have an issue where a new guy feels he must have skills x, y, and a to a certain point before he can begin having fun with the game, and cries that time is a barrier to that fun.
Now we will instead be like all those pay to win Facebook games where you can speed up progress with the direct application of cash. Sure, you don't have to pay, but for just a few bucks here and there you can do more.
This will be followed by updates with op new ships, weapons and other goodies that all require new skills, and skills probably at max levels to use.
If it was all pure ISK, I would be fine, though that introducing a semi-mandatory grind. But it's not. It's Aurum, and that's the more cancerous aspect.
This is the wrong direction to go. Make stats more meaningful, not less. Provide actual trade offs.
This system will devolve the game into a short term, instant gratification cesspool of power creep to keep up the justification of buying all the skillpoints.
This will kill the game in exactly the same fashion as microtransactions have killed every other serious game on the market. Only goofy Short term instant gratification games are 'successful' with this model.
Are you aware of character bazaar? Because you can already pay to speed up progress with direct application of cash. |
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:50:51 -
[653] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Poranius Fisc wrote:
No.. I do not think a newbro will be affording these packets.. and to use more than a few they will reach burnout from mission running to afford them.
Newbro dont have to reach over 100 mil sp instantly. why is this so hard to understand? Newbro can buy skillpacks whenever he can afford. He can aim for banking to buy few packets to bypass some boring months of training. Or newbro can spend few more bucks which he already does for subscribe. Not sure if you are mentally awkward or just trolling. From your perspective newbro cant afford plex either. So he pays for sub plus pays for plex to have some good ships. Thats why you can buy plexes from market. Why is 100mil some magic number?
At 100mil your still not done with all you can train.
But now your adding the idea all a new player has to do is dump money into plex and can go POOF and get 5 million skillpoints.
I simply put it in a perspective of not spending real world currency to advance yourself. I've never considered EVE a game that you throw more real world money at to make your character better. But those skins are darn addicting to buy. |
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
139
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 06:28:05 -
[654] - Quote
Just want to throw my 2c in against the proposed SP trading.
I believe that SP trading is against one of the core philosophies of eve - consequences.
I feel that SP trading diminishes the history that characters have when it is used to 'fix' unwanted trained skills.
I feel that the current implementation of character trading comes with downsides, as mentioned in the dev blog, and that this is important for the game. Currently buying a character has consequences, and consequences are important. You inherit that character's history, good or bad.
I do not feel that the SP trading scheme will benefit new players. New players will not have the isk to spend on SP and will feel pressured to spend RL money to bring their characters 'up to the standard'. I believe the proposed changes will become a 'pay to keep up' or 'pay to catch up' scheme, and that this kind of mentality will discourage new players for continuing to play the game.
I feel that the SP trading scheme WILL encourage the use of more and more alts for existing players who have the isk to spend.
I feel that the SP trading caps will discourage single characters with wide SP distributions and encourage the use of multiple specialised alts to dodge the trading penalties for higher SP characters.
I feel that the continued proliferation of alts is not healthy for the game. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
929
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:10:37 -
[655] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Short term will likely see some gains, but I think it's a poor idea long term.
We already have an issue where a new guy feels he must have skills x, y, and a to a certain point before he can begin having fun with the game, and cries that time is a barrier to that fun.
Now we will instead be like all those pay to win Facebook games where you can speed up progress with the direct application of cash. Sure, you don't have to pay, but for just a few bucks here and there you can do more.
This will be followed by updates with op new ships, weapons and other goodies that all require new skills, and skills probably at max levels to use.
If it was all pure ISK, I would be fine, though that introducing a semi-mandatory grind. But it's not. It's Aurum, and that's the more cancerous aspect.
This is the wrong direction to go. Make stats more meaningful, not less. Provide actual trade offs.
This system will devolve the game into a short term, instant gratification cesspool of power creep to keep up the justification of buying all the skillpoints.
This will kill the game in exactly the same fashion as microtransactions have killed every other serious game on the market. Only goofy Short term instant gratification games are 'successful' with this model. Are you aware of character bazaar? Because you can already pay to speed up progress with direct application of cash.
Sure I am aware of the character bazaar. It's fundamentally different.
With the character bazaar you might can find a character trained to whatever doctrine your favorite FC is using, but it's not a guarantee, you are paying for other stuff you don't need, etc, etc...
It does not lend itself to what's coming next, which is the same sort of power creep enjoyed by all the other pay to win games. New Ships, OP relative to existing ships, that use all new skills or else uncommon combinations of skills. Ditto with new weapons, modules, etc... Probably just straight up new skills for new functionality---all added to make you want to buy the SP packs to be first on the block to use the new stuff.
With skill packs you open a new door to all sorts of darkness. We will still have newbies crying about not being able to be competitive until Skills X, Y, and Z are trained to level 5.... only now instead of inviting them into our missions to catch bounties and become familiar with the game in a more organic fashion, or tossing them into cheap tacklers and whatnot, they will just be told to buy the appropriate skill points and build the flavor of the month on the spot. Those that don't spend the cash up front will wind up ostracized for not being team players, and a whole other cascade of nasty that this will engender because that's just human nature.
It's not the same or equivalent to the bazaar at all, and is ultimately exactly what the Jita Riots are all about, just repackaged in a way that appeals to the gotta have it now crowd.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1771
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:21:53 -
[656] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:... Are you aware of character bazaar? Because you can already pay to speed up progress with direct application of cash.
Sure I am aware of the character bazaar. It's fundamentally different.
With the character bazaar you might can find a character trained to whatever doctrine your favorite FC is using, but it's not a guarantee, you are paying for other stuff you don't need, etc, etc...
It does not lend itself to what's coming next, which is the same sort of power creep enjoyed by all the other pay to win games. New Ships, OP relative to existing ships, that use all new skills or else uncommon combinations of skills. Ditto with new weapons, modules, etc... Probably just straight up new skills for new functionality---all added to make you want to buy the SP packs to be first on the block to use the new stuff.
With skill packs you open a new door to all sorts of darkness. We will still have newbies crying about not being able to be competitive until Skills X, Y, and Z are trained to level 5.... only now instead of inviting them into our missions to catch bounties and become familiar with the game in a more organic fashion, or tossing them into cheap tacklers and whatnot, they will just be told to buy the appropriate skill points and build the flavor of the month on the spot. Those that don't spend the cash up front will wind up ostracized for not being team players, and a whole other cascade of nasty that this will engender because that's just human nature.
It's not the same or equivalent to the bazaar at all, and is ultimately exactly what the Jita Riots are all about, just repackaged in a way that appeals to the gotta have it now crowd. [/quote]
exactly this, new players will now be expected to buy the skill packs. They'll also be told where to put the points and not in a way that they learn from. They won't know why, they won't understand the effect of the skills, they'll just have to do as they are told or simply bumble through feeling even more disenchanted as they will now have an even greater feeliong of being left behind.
This of course doesn't even cover how those not rich enough to buy the packs will feel. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 10:23:06 -
[657] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sure I am aware of the character bazaar. It's fundamentally different.
With the character bazaar you might can find a character trained to whatever doctrine your favorite FC is using, but it's not a guarantee, you are paying for other stuff you don't need, etc, etc...
It does not lend itself to what's coming next, which is the same sort of power creep enjoyed by all the other pay to win games. New Ships, OP relative to existing ships, that use all new skills or else uncommon combinations of skills. Ditto with new weapons, modules, etc... Probably just straight up new skills for new functionality---all added to make you want to buy the SP packs to be first on the block to use the new stuff.
With skill packs you open a new door to all sorts of darkness. We will still have newbies crying about not being able to be competitive until Skills X, Y, and Z are trained to level 5.... only now instead of inviting them into our missions to catch bounties and become familiar with the game in a more organic fashion, or tossing them into cheap tacklers and whatnot, they will just be told to buy the appropriate skill points and build the flavor of the month on the spot. Those that don't spend the cash up front will wind up ostracized for not being team players, and a whole other cascade of nasty that this will engender because that's just human nature.
It's not the same or equivalent to the bazaar at all, and is ultimately exactly what the Jita Riots are all about, just repackaged in a way that appeals to the gotta have it now crowd.
Actually you can find almost the same skill planned characters on the market because people are farming chars in their alt accounts. Since its not a rocket sience, skill is needed in general very common. Core skills, cruiser 5, drone skills etc. If you are not looking for very specific one, its quite easy to one you will like.
Almost all competitive active pvp corps requires at least 20-30 mil sp. Which means years of training. If you dont have that much sp you will be advised to farm isk and upgrade a new character which is the only viable option we have right now. Instead of farming 20-30 billions Isk and maybe a lot more, why not give people to spend like few millions of isk every month so they can reach to certain point they are looking for and having more fun at the same time.
I also what makes you change your attitude? You can still invite them for missions so they can farm few isk to uprage their caracal with raven.
What you dont understand is today people already forced to buy character from market to compete older players. Today we already have those issues you mentioned. I bought character from market, my friends did. Because we are forced to do due to poorly designed mechanics. If you dont, you will just make older characters have fun blowing your t1 poor fitted ship. You must have high sp character to compete high sp players. Or you need to outnumber heavily which in fact doesnt solve the problem. |
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 19:16:01 -
[658] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Just want to throw my 2c in against the proposed SP trading.
I believe that SP trading is against one of the core philosophies of eve - consequences.
I feel that SP trading diminishes the history that characters have when it is used to 'fix' unwanted trained skills.
I feel that the current implementation of character trading comes with downsides, as mentioned in the dev blog, and that this is important for the game. Currently buying a character has consequences, and consequences are important. You inherit that character's history, good or bad.
I do not feel that the SP trading scheme will benefit new players. New players will not have the isk to spend on SP and will feel pressured to spend RL money to bring their characters 'up to the standard'. I believe the proposed changes will become a 'pay to keep up' or 'pay to catch up' scheme, and that this kind of mentality will discourage new players for continuing to play the game.
I feel that the SP trading scheme WILL encourage the use of more and more alts for existing players who have the isk to spend.
I feel that the SP trading caps will discourage single characters with wide SP distributions and encourage the use of multiple specialised alts to dodge the trading penalties for higher SP characters.
I feel that the continued proliferation of alts is not healthy for the game.
Actually, a good deal of us use the multi-character training.. the addition of this just means someone can take an alt, spend enough plex to train to get implants to V, than he can use that alt as an isk generator by selling sp's to buy more plex or just make isk.
Will the pressure to use IRL money to get SP? yes, it will happen.. I do not think it will dominate eve in that fashion though. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
932
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 20:54:37 -
[659] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sure I am aware of the character bazaar. It's fundamentally different.
With the character bazaar you might can find a character trained to whatever doctrine your favorite FC is using, but it's not a guarantee, you are paying for other stuff you don't need, etc, etc...
It does not lend itself to what's coming next, which is the same sort of power creep enjoyed by all the other pay to win games. New Ships, OP relative to existing ships, that use all new skills or else uncommon combinations of skills. Ditto with new weapons, modules, etc... Probably just straight up new skills for new functionality---all added to make you want to buy the SP packs to be first on the block to use the new stuff.
With skill packs you open a new door to all sorts of darkness. We will still have newbies crying about not being able to be competitive until Skills X, Y, and Z are trained to level 5.... only now instead of inviting them into our missions to catch bounties and become familiar with the game in a more organic fashion, or tossing them into cheap tacklers and whatnot, they will just be told to buy the appropriate skill points and build the flavor of the month on the spot. Those that don't spend the cash up front will wind up ostracized for not being team players, and a whole other cascade of nasty that this will engender because that's just human nature.
It's not the same or equivalent to the bazaar at all, and is ultimately exactly what the Jita Riots are all about, just repackaged in a way that appeals to the gotta have it now crowd.
Actually you can find almost the same skill planned characters on the market because people are farming chars in their alt accounts. Since its not a rocket sience, skill is needed in general very common. Core skills, cruiser 5, drone skills etc. If you are not looking for very specific one, its quite easy to find one you will like. Almost all competitive active pvp corps requires at least 20-30 mil sp. Which means years of training. If you dont have that much sp you will be advised to farm isk and upgrade a new character which is the only viable option we have right now. Instead of farming 20-30 billions Isk and maybe a lot more, why not give people ability to spend few millions of isk every month to upgrade so they can reach to certain point they are looking for and having more fun at the same time. I also wonder what makes you change your attitude? You can still invite newbies for missions so they can farm few isk to uprage their caracal to raven. What you dont understand is today people already forced to buy character from market to compete older players. Today we already have those issues you mentioned. I bought character from market, my friends did. Because we are forced to do due to poorly designed mechanics. If you dont, you will just make older characters have fun blowing your t1 poor fitted ship. You must have high sp character to compete high sp players. Or you need to outnumber heavily which in fact doesnt solve the problem.
My attitude doesn't change, I would still invite anyone interested to come join me in missions. That won't happen now because if they want to do that they will just go solo their own, and gripe about the standings grind that starts them in extremely easy missions that barely challenge a newbie frigate.
The poor mechanics have not changed. Eve PvP is in almost as bad a shape as it's PvE. They have relied so heavily on their beloved butterfly effect for content that all they for too long was shuffle some ship stats. That was good stuff, but it's not all that needed done, and the game suffers for it.
What you don't realize is that the money sink will never end. Once you have your shiny perfect character custom tailored to the flavor of the month, the flavor will change to another race. New weapons will be added. New ship classes. New modules. All of this will require all brand new skills, and will obsolete the previous new thing. It will never end, and at the end of a few years a newbie will have to sub, and then drop a ton of extra cash catching up to the newest stuff, and just like those pay to win games it will stagnate and die because long term it's not a sustainable model. |
d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
254
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 21:02:25 -
[660] - Quote
I'm waiting for people to spend hundreds of dollars/billions of isk to get more SP, and still suck as much as before.
Then come complain here.
I for one, can't wait to get rid of some wasted time i spent training certain useless skills (for me) YEARS ago!
I can't wait for this happen honestly, we get to see more juicer targets undock, and get blowned up b/c they are clueless how fly them. Heck go check the killboards, PLENTY of VERY expensive, VERY skill intense ships getting whacked by 1-2 dude because the ship isn't fitted properly or the pilot makes basic mistakes!
This new thing changes nothing, except more idiots flying expensive stuff. On the other hand, for some of us that want to clean up our character, we can! Heck, we can even apply some of that wasted SP onto finishing something like Titan V, or gallente heavy drone V.
Been around since the beginning.
|
|
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
143
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 01:18:10 -
[661] - Quote
Poranius Fisc wrote:Davis TetrisKing wrote:Just want to throw my 2c in against the proposed SP trading.
-snip-
Actually, a good deal of us use the multi-character training.. the addition of this just means someone can take an alt, spend enough plex to train to get implants to V, than he can use that alt as an isk generator by selling sp's to buy more plex or just make isk. Will the pressure to use IRL money to get SP? yes, it will happen.. I do not think it will dominate eve in that fashion though.
I'd be interested to see how the market balances this one out.
1st you need to throw a Plex into the multi-character training each month. Then because the SP injectors cost Aurum you'd need to pay for the aurum to convert the SP into injectors. Then you'll sell the injectors for isk.
I kind of imagine it'll be used more on alt accounts, where someone has an account for trading/cynos/spies etc. The account is able to train a single character no matter what by being active, so instead of a spy wasting the SP training on a character that will be burnt when he's outed, he can do what you've proposed on an alt and sell the SP without needing to use multi-character training. If you're paying for that account on a multi-month subscription the costs are much lower than plex, so he's got an advantage on the SP trading market.
In the end these are not the things I'm concerned about. I am concerned about consequences and character history. Currently if people want they can just use plex to generate isk, so what you've suggested is a more involved way of doing that.
I'm concerned about the history that characters have. If you get killed in eve a killmail is generated. You can't go and change the past because you don't like it, just move on from it. If you train a skill that later is useless to you I don't think you should be able to go back and change it. A characters history is what gives it a story, a 'real' story.
People say 'you can just buy a character', but even then that character has history. Even a blank one will always be a bought character. You can look up character sales, so forever that character will be shown as a bought character.
I think the SP trading system proposed takes a lot of that away. |
Zen BraZen
Repercussus Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 09:09:20 -
[662] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Poranius Fisc wrote:[quote=Davis TetrisKing]Just want to throw my 2c in against the proposed SP trading.
-double snip-
I'd be interested to see how the market balances this one out. 1st you need to throw a Plex into the multi-character training each month. Then because the SP injectors cost Aurum you'd need to pay for the aurum to convert the SP into injectors. Then you'll sell the injectors for isk. I kind of imagine it'll be used more on alt accounts, where someone has an account for trading/cynos/spies etc. The account is able to train a single character no matter what by being active, so instead of a spy wasting the SP training on a character that will be burnt when he's outed, he can do what you've proposed on an alt and sell the SP without needing to use multi-character training. If you're paying for that account on a multi-month subscription the costs are much lower than plex, so he's got an advantage on the SP trading market. In the end these are not the things I'm concerned about. I am concerned about consequences and character history. Currently if people want they can just use plex to generate isk, so what you've suggested is a more involved way of doing that. I'm concerned about the history that characters have. If you get killed in eve a killmail is generated. You can't go and change the past because you don't like it, just move on from it. If you train a skill that later is useless to you I don't think you should be able to go back and change it. A characters history is what gives it a story, a 'real' story. People say 'you can just buy a character', but even then that character has history. Even a blank one will always be a bought character. You can look up character sales, so forever that character will be shown as a bought character. I think the SP trading system proposed takes a lot of that away.
First off, I'm all for SP trading, and would cite many of the reasons given in this thread and those that have been recently blogged about. However, I just wanted to pick up on this point about damaging character history as its an important point.
The idea that people sell themselves, or parts of themselves for profit is an old idea that has been around for millennia.
But to support it in Eve, I think their should be a record of every SP transaction on a character, for either removing or injecting SP. Something like a medical history if you will. This information should be available to the owner of the account in the character sheet.
In terms of how this is shown to the rest of Eve, I expect people would want to hide this information from the casual observer for their own characters, although perhaps their could be an option to make it public, like with the certificates, or in the API.
|
Bastion Arzi
Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit
265
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 11:38:44 -
[663] - Quote
Pls don't make the game like that. Literally by sp?
Pls no because that's gravitating towards pay to win rather quickly.
|
Lori Tempa
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:44:09 -
[664] - Quote
I would like to know the AUR cost and the expected release date. This thread has run it's course with the same points and counterpoints being made.
I think that this was designed for people that would be dealing in the character bazaar in the first place. This will help them because instead of buying someone else, they get to keep what's theirs which I think would increase sentiment to their own character. The added bonus of this is that people that would never have dealings in the character bazaar can now also participate since the barrier to entry is lower than several billion isk.
|
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 17:35:39 -
[665] - Quote
Zen BraZen wrote:Davis TetrisKing wrote:Poranius Fisc wrote:[quote=Davis TetrisKing]Just want to throw my 2c in against the proposed SP trading.
-double snip-
I'd be interested to see how the market balances this one out. 1st you need to throw a Plex into the multi-character training each month. Then because the SP injectors cost Aurum you'd need to pay for the aurum to convert the SP into injectors. Then you'll sell the injectors for isk. I kind of imagine it'll be used more on alt accounts, where someone has an account for trading/cynos/spies etc. The account is able to train a single character no matter what by being active, so instead of a spy wasting the SP training on a character that will be burnt when he's outed, he can do what you've proposed on an alt and sell the SP without needing to use multi-character training. If you're paying for that account on a multi-month subscription the costs are much lower than plex, so he's got an advantage on the SP trading market. In the end these are not the things I'm concerned about. I am concerned about consequences and character history. Currently if people want they can just use plex to generate isk, so what you've suggested is a more involved way of doing that. I'm concerned about the history that characters have. If you get killed in eve a killmail is generated. You can't go and change the past because you don't like it, just move on from it. If you train a skill that later is useless to you I don't think you should be able to go back and change it. A characters history is what gives it a story, a 'real' story. People say 'you can just buy a character', but even then that character has history. Even a blank one will always be a bought character. You can look up character sales, so forever that character will be shown as a bought character. I think the SP trading system proposed takes a lot of that away. First off, I'm all for SP trading, and would cite many of the reasons given in this thread and those that have been recently blogged about. The idea that people sell themselves, or parts of themselves for trade is an old idea that has been around for millennia. However, I just wanted to pick up on this point about damaging character history as its an important point. To support SP trading in Eve, I think their should be a permanent record of every SP transaction on a character, for either removing or injecting SP. Something like a medical history if you will. This information should be available to the owner of the account in the character sheet. This would give the continuity of character development wherever the SP trail leads. In terms of how this is shown to the rest of Eve, I expect people would want to hide this information from the casual observer for their own characters, although perhaps there could be an option to make it public, like with the certificates, or in the API. You know (and not trying to derail you)., my first few years at eve I was a pretty sucky player now that I look back at it.
On the flip side of that, looking back, throwing SP at it wouldn't have changed that. I had to learn by getting blown up.. alot. :D Making isk sucked. Ships were far less balanced. Missiles were king! And I would die, stupidly. have to look at what happened, and adapt. Good fun.
What you posted makes sense though.
|
Cydonia Meridian
House Singularity Sixth Empire
39
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 18:51:11 -
[666] - Quote
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Actually, a good deal of us use the multi-character training.. the addition of this just means someone can take an alt, spend enough plex to train to get implants to V, than he can use that alt as an isk generator by selling sp's to buy more plex or just make isk.
Will the pressure to use IRL money to get SP? yes, it will happen.. I do not think it will dominate eve in that fashion though.
You raise an interesting point here, the relative value of PLEX. Currently pegged to the Dollar on one side, with minor fluctuations (sales,) but floating to ISK, based on, what, people's willingness to trade IRL money to save time getting ingame money? But with this system you add in a direct link since 1 PLEX =1 mo. training = 2M skillpoints? (w/implants) = 4 skill packets. I suppose the price of a skill packet could float with the PLEX, but it does add another factor. |
d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
258
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 20:23:22 -
[667] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Pls don't make the game like that. Literally buy sp?
Pls no because that's gravitating towards pay to win rather quickly.
Why not? If someone wants to waste hundred/thousands of dollars and/or ten's of billions of isks... that's his choice.
That would be a small minority.
The vast majority would help them sell some sp for some isk, and fine tune their characters.
Been around since the beginning.
|
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
232
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 20:23:51 -
[668] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Short term will likely see some gains, but I think it's a poor idea long term.
We already have an issue where a new guy feels he must have skills x, y, and a to a certain point before he can begin having fun with the game, and cries that time is a barrier to that fun.
Now we will instead be like all those pay to win Facebook games where you can speed up progress with the direct application of cash. Sure, you don't have to pay, but for just a few bucks here and there you can do more.
This will be followed by updates with op new ships, weapons and other goodies that all require new skills, and skills probably at max levels to use.
If it was all pure ISK, I would be fine, though that introducing a semi-mandatory grind. But it's not. It's Aurum, and that's the more cancerous aspect.
This is the wrong direction to go. Make stats more meaningful, not less. Provide actual trade offs.
This system will devolve the game into a short term, instant gratification cesspool of power creep to keep up the justification of buying all the skillpoints.
This will kill the game in exactly the same fashion as microtransactions have killed every other serious game on the market. Only goofy Short term instant gratification games are 'successful' with this model. Are you aware of character bazaar? Because you can already pay to speed up progress with direct application of cash.
you cant on new skills. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 09:34:00 -
[669] - Quote
So it doesn't change the fact that you can still dump money to speed up the process |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4864
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:08:39 -
[670] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:So it doesn't change the fact that you can still dump money to speed up the process But it does neutralize the consequences for poor decision making, in the context of picking character skills to train.
A well rounded character becomes embarrassing, as it seems the player is too lazy to clean up their un-needed skills and re-invest points in a more focused manner.
Did not like that skill? Dump it, keep it, whatever, just buy the points in the skill, that hindsight demonstrates you should have picked.
Competition is LESS interesting when everyone has effectively perfect assets, that is when things get unpleasant.
Corp XXX can now insist you have these skills trained to level 5. While this is not unheard of now, with the ability to effectively buy the skills it will be more common, as it will appear far more reasonable to insist upon.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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Shiva 113
Yggdrasill Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:25:41 -
[671] - Quote
A big no.
Why play a game where everything you can achieve through being good at it could be bought by any rich loser for money GÇô what would even be the point of beginning if that was the case? |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:29:03 -
[672] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:So it doesn't change the fact that you can still dump money to speed up the process But it does neutralize the consequences for poor decision making, in the context of picking character skills to train. A well rounded character becomes embarrassing, as it seems the player is too lazy to clean up their un-needed skills and re-invest points in a more focused manner. Did not like that skill? Dump it, keep it, whatever, just buy the points in the skill, that hindsight demonstrates you should have picked. Competition is LESS interesting when everyone has effectively perfect assets, that is when things get unpleasant. Corp XXX can now insist you have these skills trained to level 5. While this is not unheard of now, with the ability to effectively buy the skills it will be more common, as it will appear far more reasonable to insist upon.
well rounded characters are not desired already. They are sold for less than any other focused character. nothing new. They will get less worthy after this probably.
As you mentioned Corp XXX already insist you train those skills. Right now your only options are to either train them wait for years.... or go grind isk like crazy and dump like 30 billion isk for a character. Which is not a pretty option. But after this at least people can dumb only few plexes. compared to 25-30 bil its doable. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4866
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 15:16:58 -
[673] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:well rounded characters are not desired already. They are sold for less than any other focused character. nothing new. They will get less worthy after this probably. As you mentioned Corp XXX already insist you train those skills. Right now your only options are to either train them wait for years.... or go grind isk like crazy and dump like 30 billion isk for a character. Which is not a pretty option. But after this at least people can dumb only few plexes. compared to 25-30 bil its doable. Well rounded characters may not be desired on the character bazaar, but quite frankly they are MORE functional in the game itself.
The 100+ million skill point character is more likely to be useful in unexpected circumstances, and more players would be willing to undock using them when these appear.
If we theory craft an ideal character under new logic, they will have few enough invested SP, so that they can quickly plug in unspent SP in whichever FOTM shows up, most efficiently. That means having SP below the level where return on investment reaches cost breaking numbers.
Great for blob fleets, I have no doubt. That designated fleet fit will have perfect pilots with max skills where needed.
Just don't expect them to be as useful outside of that fleet, the same way many of today's characters are.
I feel this is pushing the game away from skilled players, to those instead with more time or real life money. This concerns me.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3588
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 20:03:33 -
[674] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:So it doesn't change the fact that you can still dump money to speed up the process But it does neutralize the consequences for poor decision making, in the context of picking character skills to train. A well rounded character becomes embarrassing, as it seems the player is too lazy to clean up their un-needed skills and re-invest points in a more focused manner. Did not like that skill? Dump it, keep it, whatever, just buy the points in the skill, that hindsight demonstrates you should have picked. Competition is LESS interesting when everyone has effectively perfect assets, that is when things get unpleasant. Corp XXX can now insist you have these skills trained to level 5. While this is not unheard of now, with the ability to effectively buy the skills it will be more common, as it will appear far more reasonable to insist upon. well rounded characters are not desired already. They are sold for less than any other focused character. nothing new. They will get less worthy after this probably. As you mentioned Corp XXX already insist you train those skills. Right now your only options are to either train them wait for years.... or go grind isk like crazy and dump like 30 billion isk for a character. Which is not a pretty option. But after this at least people can dumb only few plexes. compared to 25-30 bil its doable.
Or buy PLEX which is how I bet many do it.
If you can make 180 million/hour to get to 30 billion requires 166.67 hours.
Or you could buy 25 PLEX (assuming a price of 1.2 billion/PLEX), or $498.75. Which if you make $20/hour after taxes is about 25 hours of work.
You do the calculus...
Which do you value more:
1. 166.67 hour of leisure spent grinding ISK, 2. 25 hours worth of after tax income?
And 30 billion is a bit high, IMO (that is about a 60 million SP character). Getting a character that has good logistics skills so you can fly logi and a few other doctrines would probably cost quite a bit less.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 11:45:04 -
[675] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:So it doesn't change the fact that you can still dump money to speed up the process But it does neutralize the consequences for poor decision making, in the context of picking character skills to train. A well rounded character becomes embarrassing, as it seems the player is too lazy to clean up their un-needed skills and re-invest points in a more focused manner. Did not like that skill? Dump it, keep it, whatever, just buy the points in the skill, that hindsight demonstrates you should have picked. Competition is LESS interesting when everyone has effectively perfect assets, that is when things get unpleasant. Corp XXX can now insist you have these skills trained to level 5. While this is not unheard of now, with the ability to effectively buy the skills it will be more common, as it will appear far more reasonable to insist upon. well rounded characters are not desired already. They are sold for less than any other focused character. nothing new. They will get less worthy after this probably. As you mentioned Corp XXX already insist you train those skills. Right now your only options are to either train them wait for years.... or go grind isk like crazy and dump like 30 billion isk for a character. Which is not a pretty option. But after this at least people can dumb only few plexes. compared to 25-30 bil its doable. Or buy PLEX which is how I bet many do it. If you can make 180 million/hour to get to 30 billion requires 166.67 hours. Or you could buy 25 PLEX (assuming a price of 1.2 billion/PLEX), or $498.75. Which if you make $20/hour after taxes is about 25 hours of work. You do the calculus... Which do you value more: 1. 166.67 hour of leisure spent grinding ISK, 2. 25 hours worth of after tax income? And 30 billion is a bit high, IMO (that is about a 60 million SP character). Getting a character that has good logistics skills so you can fly logi and a few other doctrines would probably cost quite a bit less.
i dont get the reason of doing this comparison. Whats the point ?
I dont care if people dump that much money to buy plex. Dont think many people would do tho. In fact many would benefit from this since plex prices would go down. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
940
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 13:13:11 -
[676] - Quote
There will be zero benefit to doing this in the long run.
None. It's been tried in dozens of games, and it has absolutely ruined any kind of long term viability for every last one of them.
It takes one of the few actual unique aspects of this game, and adds mandatory skill grind. That *will* happen. Anyone who does not have that absolute 100% perfect build will be required to get it to do anything with a group. Anyone that dies will assume it's because they lacked some skill their opponent had, and will feel they have to earn ever more ISK to "keep up". New modules, ships, and skills will come out, and it will take a month or more to make them shine and people will feel they have to have that right away too.
It turns one of the best things about the game into golden ammo. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 13:21:20 -
[677] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:There will be zero benefit to doing this in the long run.
None. It's been tried in dozens of games, and it has absolutely ruined any kind of long term viability for every last one of them.
It takes one of the few actual unique aspects of this game, and adds mandatory skill grind. That *will* happen. Anyone who does not have that absolute 100% perfect build will be required to get it to do anything with a group. Anyone that dies will assume it's because they lacked some skill their opponent had, and will feel they have to earn ever more ISK to "keep up". New modules, ships, and skills will come out, and it will take a month or more to make them shine and people will feel they have to have that right away too.
It turns one of the best things about the game into golden ammo. While it seems less than accurate that anything will be "required" for fleet doctrines (fleet size is often more helpful than a specific fleet comp, especially with ECM, Logi, and other roles), it does seem an interesting idea what other games have are being mentioned?
I've responded to some relevant points here which might further the discussion.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Vypera Blackneck
NerdHerd The Explicit Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 14:10:49 -
[678] - Quote
o7 First of all please, forgive me for my poor English.
I really like this new feature. I reckon I'm not the first who has the next concern about the SP Trading stuff. My apologies but I can't be bothered to skim through all the related topics.
Ok. So if someone has "waste" SP to sell that means the char has at least 500k SP to "unplug" and sell for reasonable chashish... that's sounds lovely, isn't?!
I see two reasons to rip and sell SP.
1st: for pretty money... ehm, what kind of ISK really? A char with let's say 30m SP, can unlikely be messed up that much it couldn't get the price of a PLEX in a month. In average you get about 1 million SP per month yes, but you need those SP right there. Unless you constantly messing up your training queue. So how much would I ask for? SP is a valuable stuff. Being a bit greedy and lazy make it up at least to 1 PLEX for 500k SP. Why is that high? It's business we selling it for profit. If it was low, there wasn't enough on market so the price would go up because of higher demand, right?
Let's face it the older chars have the riches they can buy such luxury for own use or for re-selling ergo no cheap SP for newbies. Even if they could get the ISK for... that would be all they work for, farming all day long to get their skill little closer to the older players. So they work hard to be on 5mil SP instead of 4.5mil.
Great they are still crap and now poor too. That's not much benefit for the newbs.
2nd:for "re-training" the char... if I had wastes and I fancy to train for something else... yup, we always do. But there is a loss on SP trading, a part just disappears from the system so as the ISK paid for. So hello! If I want to re-buy my "wasted/ripped" skill points, I will sell the "waste" on the highest price as possible to cover the loss. Higher the price more newbs will suck on again.
They need to get in a price-fight with the older accounts. New players have no chance... apart from buying shite-loads of PLEX from CCP this is discriminative and will make ppl angry (and would inflate the price of PLEX).
If it was possible to extract SP and then re-inject that to the same char with a loss (or on the same account, or the owners another account) there were no SP on the market so no benefit to Newbs here too.
My concern is, who can extract SP will not do it for charity, but for reasonable profit. Since CCP have no control over market the price expected to be high which makes it nearly impossible for a new player to get a real benefit from this.
So, that's what I wanted to say. Thanks for reading it hope it makes you think.
Fly safe! o7 Vyp
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
941
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 14:16:28 -
[679] - Quote
Less than accurate? Have you played any mmo's?
Other games have different dynamics, but the underlying principals remain the same, and are in fact magnified by the fact that in EVE you lose whatever you had in space when you die.
With a mechanic in place that allows straight up instapurchase of skillpoints any build not up to spec of the chosen doctrine will be frozen out, period. Null Blobs, incursions, camps of all kinds... Unless you run it yourself you will be required to field the exact build some 'genius' has cooked up.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2015.10.25 15:22:57 -
[680] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Less than accurate? Have you played any mmo's?
Other games have different dynamics, but the underlying principals remain the same, and are in fact magnified by the fact that in EVE you lose whatever you had in space when you die.
With a mechanic in place that allows straight up instapurchase of skillpoints any build not up to spec of the chosen doctrine will be frozen out, period. Null Blobs, incursions, camps of all kinds... Unless you run it yourself you will be required to field the exact build some 'genius' has cooked up.
It's based on nothing. Fleets are more than flying 10M SP ships.
Dror wrote:You're arguing to extremes. There's no reason to say that newbies would have no place in the sandbox. A huge niche is shown pretty evidently with a certain hierarchy of motivation -- protip: it's benevolence and unity. Strategy is fun. If that includes recruiting newbs, and literally any that would pay for the game, magnificent!
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
944
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 04:00:37 -
[681] - Quote
If your own argument held any water at all, there would be no need for this change and the idea itself would never have been given any serious consideration, much less development time.
The only good side to this is that if a newbie gets in good with a group they will give him the skill packs to enable his participation.
That does not change the fact that this sort of pay to win strategy is equivalent to giving hard drugs to an addictive personality. It's going to make him happy for the next day or so, and then it will beat his wife, Rob his kids of their future, eat his life savings, and destroy everything of value in his life. Or... You know, maybe he will be that one in a million guy who can handle his drugs and keep everything else balanced too... I mean, it's happened to at least one or two addicts, right? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3590
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 04:14:02 -
[682] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:So it doesn't change the fact that you can still dump money to speed up the process But it does neutralize the consequences for poor decision making, in the context of picking character skills to train. A well rounded character becomes embarrassing, as it seems the player is too lazy to clean up their un-needed skills and re-invest points in a more focused manner. Did not like that skill? Dump it, keep it, whatever, just buy the points in the skill, that hindsight demonstrates you should have picked. Competition is LESS interesting when everyone has effectively perfect assets, that is when things get unpleasant. Corp XXX can now insist you have these skills trained to level 5. While this is not unheard of now, with the ability to effectively buy the skills it will be more common, as it will appear far more reasonable to insist upon. well rounded characters are not desired already. They are sold for less than any other focused character. nothing new. They will get less worthy after this probably. As you mentioned Corp XXX already insist you train those skills. Right now your only options are to either train them wait for years.... or go grind isk like crazy and dump like 30 billion isk for a character. Which is not a pretty option. But after this at least people can dumb only few plexes. compared to 25-30 bil its doable. Or buy PLEX which is how I bet many do it. If you can make 180 million/hour to get to 30 billion requires 166.67 hours. Or you could buy 25 PLEX (assuming a price of 1.2 billion/PLEX), or $498.75. Which if you make $20/hour after taxes is about 25 hours of work. You do the calculus... Which do you value more: 1. 166.67 hour of leisure spent grinding ISK, 2. 25 hours worth of after tax income? And 30 billion is a bit high, IMO (that is about a 60 million SP character). Getting a character that has good logistics skills so you can fly logi and a few other doctrines would probably cost quite a bit less. i dont get the reason of doing this comparison. Whats the point ? I dont care if people dump that much money to buy plex. Dont think many people would do tho. In fact many would benefit from this since plex prices would go down.
Jesus ******* Christ on a Pogo stick...
Opprotunity cost...for **** sake.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:07:24 -
[683] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If your own argument held any water at all, there would be no need for this change and the idea itself would never have been given any serious consideration, much less development time.
The only good side to this is that if a newbie gets in good with a group they will give him the skill packs to enable his participation.
That does not change the fact that this sort of pay to win strategy is equivalent to giving hard drugs to an addictive personality. It's going to make him happy for the next day or so, and then it will beat his wife, Rob his kids of their future, eat his life savings, and destroy everything of value in his life. Or... You know, maybe he will be that one in a million guy who can handle his drugs and keep everything else balanced too... I mean, it's happened to at least one or two addicts, right? If you have a problem with SP trading as "P2W", you have a problem with SP completely. There are already character bazaar options.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
946
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:45:21 -
[684] - Quote
Sorry, you don't get to make my value judgments for me.
I don't have a problem with SP. There is more to SP than simple Time=SP.
This game does not have levels. One of my favorite things about this game is that progression isn't tied to how many things I kill. If real life intervenes in my game time, it does not matter other than lost time doing something, I don't log in and suddenly can't do things with my friends because they outleveled me in a few nights.
Real time training is an amazing feature, and while it's not technically going to go away, it will realistically cease to be a factor in character progression. It will be a minor little detail next to the overall grind for ISK and throwing dollars at the screen for the AUR to make the skill packets.
Consider the ramifications for the upcoming capital changes. When they go live, each cap pilot has some decisions to make.... Bring up skills for tech 2 cap weapons, train for the new class of cap, train for the other new cap sized modules, etc. You should see a shakeup in the metagame, possibly even the shape of the blue doughnut will waver as the fallout from the changes work their way into the game.
Except that with this change a day later you will see a horde of farmed characters disassembled, money for AUR tossed in CCP's lap, and all or most of the bigger alliances's cap pilots will have all of that, instantly. No long term strategy, nothing but some insta-baked max skilled characters dominating anyone without the cash both in game and IRL to match them overnight. By the time those without catch up all the shake up of the meta will long since be over and done with.
You can't buy that effect off the character bazaar. Nor can you correct for opportunity costs unless the exact thing you want happens to be available.
I am a busy man IRL. I have 2 kids that I raise myself, a job with long and inconvenient hours and a long commute, and a few social obligations. Without the real time training I would long ago have allowed my account to lapse, because I often go weeks at a time without even the opportunity for a couple hours shooting rats. I am not the only one. This will cost those subscriptions. Both because there is no point if I can just buy the lost time back, and because it instantly devalues any dedication to the game. |
Mag's
the united
20624
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:49:52 -
[685] - Quote
Well said Mike, well said.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 08:55:34 -
[686] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Sorry, you don't get to make my value judgments for me.
I don't have a problem with SP. There is more to SP than simple Time=SP.
This game does not have levels. One of my favorite things about this game is that progression isn't tied to how many things I kill. If real life intervenes in my game time, it does not matter other than lost time doing something, I don't log in and suddenly can't do things with my friends because they outleveled me in a few nights.
Real time training is an amazing feature, and while it's not technically going to go away, it will realistically cease to be a factor in character progression. It will be a minor little detail next to the overall grind for ISK and throwing dollars at the screen for the AUR to make the skill packets.
Consider the ramifications for the upcoming capital changes. When they go live, each cap pilot has some decisions to make.... Bring up skills for tech 2 cap weapons, train for the new class of cap, train for the other new cap sized modules, etc. You should see a shakeup in the metagame, possibly even the shape of the blue doughnut will waver as the fallout from the changes work their way into the game.
Except that with this change a day later you will see a horde of farmed characters disassembled, money for AUR tossed in CCP's lap, and all or most of the bigger alliances's cap pilots will have all of that, instantly. No long term strategy, nothing but some insta-baked max skilled characters dominating anyone without the cash both in game and IRL to match them overnight. By the time those without catch up all the shake up of the meta will long since be over and done with.
You can't buy that effect off the character bazaar. Nor can you correct for opportunity costs unless the exact thing you want happens to be available.
I am a busy man IRL. I have 2 kids that I raise myself, a job with long and inconvenient hours and a long commute, and a few social obligations. Without the real time training I would long ago have allowed my account to lapse, because I often go weeks at a time without even the opportunity for a couple hours shooting rats. I am not the only one. This will cost those subscriptions. Both because there is no point if I can just buy the lost time back, and because it instantly devalues any dedication to the game. Challenging your idea of SP because you list it as P2W (more specifically, as correlative with winning in any manner) is nothing about it as a progression method. Without SP, there would be no "behind" at all.
That's the point. Characters do get out-leveled, and under nothing but money paid. So, if getting out-leveled is a deterrent for you, how much the same for a huge percentages of gaming? "Nothing but some .. max skilled characters dominating anyone without the cash both in game and IRL to match them." That's already how it is.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
946
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 09:54:02 -
[687] - Quote
You fail to understand the importance of diminishing returns. Choose to master a frigate and a 12 year old character with all his millions of SP over you will be on the same footing, unless it's something truely new, in which case you are already equal. Until the change, then all that will matter is who has the most money.
Currently there is a progression based on time invensted via sp. That will go away, to be replaced with who has the most cash. Currently sp isn't a pay to win, instead it's time spent, priorities decided upon, decions made.
All of that is going to go away. It takes money to get time, but there is little you can do to maximise your time. Eve is about the long haul and choices having meaningful consequences. After this change it will be about spending money to perfect your build...Until ccp decides to change a module and thus get another injection of cash.
The reasons you don't like it are exactly the reasons it's important to keep it this way. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:06:20 -
[688] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:You fail to understand the importance of diminishing returns. Choose to master a frigate and a 12 year old character with all his millions of SP over you will be on the same footing, unless it's something truely new, in which case you are already equal. Until the change, then all that will matter is who has the most money.
Currently there is a progression based on time invensted via sp. That will go away, to be replaced with who has the most cash. Currently sp isn't a pay to win, instead it's time spent, priorities decided upon, decions made.
All of that is going to go away. It takes money to get time, but there is little you can do to maximise your time. Eve is about the long haul and choices having meaningful consequences. After this change it will be about spending money to perfect your build...Until ccp decides to change a module and thus get another injection of cash.
The reasons you don't like it are exactly the reasons it's important to keep it this way. The game scales beyond frigates, with requirements stacking per greater class. Limiting the conversation to frigates effects the conversation very little. Strategy is much more. Corps are (and can require) much more significance.
From a study:
Quote:An MMO should provide an opportunity for any character engaged in combat to win.
Social identity [correlates with game loyalty (subs) and] is defined as the knowledge of belonging to a social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership. Value is very correlative with SP, and lower value is lower social identity (game loyalty).
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
949
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:13:20 -
[689] - Quote
Frigates were just one example. Other than timeframe the same is true of every ship in the game.
You want to shortcircut the progression rather than finding a niche with what you can do while building for what you want to do next. Basically you feel you are too good for the beginning stages of the game and feel entitled to instant gratification.
While strategy scales far beyond frigate, it also never escapes the need for them. In fact most larger ships are exceedingly vulnerable to them. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:15:20 -
[690] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Frigates were just one example. Other than timeframe the same is true of every ship in the game.
You want to shortcircut the progression rather than finding a niche with what you can do while building for what you want to do next. Basically you feel you are too good for the beginning stages of the game and feel entitled to instant gratification.
While strategy scales far beyond frigate, it also never escapes the need for them. In fact most larger ships are exceedingly vulnerable to them. You're the one arguing for opportunity cost (to the detriment of a fair playing field). Prove it, then. Your anecdote is unconvincing, especially next to research.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
949
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:16:04 -
[691] - Quote
Dror wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:You fail to understand the importance of diminishing returns. Choose to master a frigate and a 12 year old character with all his millions of SP over you will be on the same footing, unless it's something truely new, in which case you are already equal. Until the change, then all that will matter is who has the most money.
Currently there is a progression based on time invensted via sp. That will go away, to be replaced with who has the most cash. Currently sp isn't a pay to win, instead it's time spent, priorities decided upon, decions made.
All of that is going to go away. It takes money to get time, but there is little you can do to maximise your time. Eve is about the long haul and choices having meaningful consequences. After this change it will be about spending money to perfect your build...Until ccp decides to change a module and thus get another injection of cash.
The reasons you don't like it are exactly the reasons it's important to keep it this way. The game scales beyond frigates, with requirements stacking per greater class. Limiting the conversation to frigates effects the conversation very little. Strategy is much more. Corps are (and can require) much more significance. From a study: Quote:An MMO should provide an opportunity for any character engaged in combat to win.
Social identity [correlates with game loyalty (subs) and] is defined as the knowledge of belonging to a social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership. Value is very correlative with SP, and lower value is lower social identity (game loyalty).
I am not sure what the credentials of the authors of that study are, but your quoted section is either taken way out of context or they don't know anything about mmo's and are confusing them with regular multiplayer combat games like battlefield.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
278
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:16:40 -
[692] - Quote
I have a couple of suggestions and criticisms regarding skill remapping and buying. I have put them down in the devblog thread for the skill trading proposal and so I won't repeat it here but instead link to my ideas on that thread.
Suggestions for Skill Remapping & Buying
I hope that it may be of some use to CCP as they look for suggestions on how to improve their current skill trading proposal.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:18:33 -
[693] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Dror wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:You fail to understand the importance of diminishing returns. Choose to master a frigate and a 12 year old character with all his millions of SP over you will be on the same footing, unless it's something truely new, in which case you are already equal. Until the change, then all that will matter is who has the most money.
Currently there is a progression based on time invensted via sp. That will go away, to be replaced with who has the most cash. Currently sp isn't a pay to win, instead it's time spent, priorities decided upon, decions made.
All of that is going to go away. It takes money to get time, but there is little you can do to maximise your time. Eve is about the long haul and choices having meaningful consequences. After this change it will be about spending money to perfect your build...Until ccp decides to change a module and thus get another injection of cash.
The reasons you don't like it are exactly the reasons it's important to keep it this way. The game scales beyond frigates, with requirements stacking per greater class. Limiting the conversation to frigates effects the conversation very little. Strategy is much more. Corps are (and can require) much more significance. From a study: Quote:An MMO should provide an opportunity for any character engaged in combat to win.
Social identity [correlates with game loyalty (subs) and] is defined as the knowledge of belonging to a social group, as well as the emotional and value significance of his or her group membership. Value is very correlative with SP, and lower value is lower social identity (game loyalty). I am not sure what the credentials of the authors of that study are, but your quoted section is either taken way out of context or they don't know anything about mmo's and are confusing them with regular multiplayer combat games like battlefield. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6125792#post6125792
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1870
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:45:54 -
[694] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:... Jesus ******* Christ on a Pogo stick... ... Now I *would* pay good ISK to see that... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1870
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:51:18 -
[695] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:...
I am not sure what the credentials of the authors of that study are, but your quoted section is either taken way out of context or they don't know anything about mmo's and are confusing them with regular multiplayer combat games like battlefield.
The fact that the research he keeps quoting acknowledges at the end of the article that it has serious limitations and also only covers 173 players who self-reported the results (and are therefore doubtful in terms of usefulness) doesn't come into it either apparently... |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 10:58:01 -
[696] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:...
I am not sure what the credentials of the authors of that study are, but your quoted section is either taken way out of context or they don't know anything about mmo's and are confusing them with regular multiplayer combat games like battlefield.
The fact that the research he keeps quoting acknowledges at the end of the article that it has serious limitations and also only covers 173 players who self-reported the results (and are therefore doubtful in terms of usefulness) doesn't come into it either apparently... "Guys, really, an unfair playing field is great!"
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
953
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 11:49:48 -
[697] - Quote
You would have a point if all of EVE was a 1v1 pvp fight.
It's not. There are many roads, many choices. Currently all you buy is time in game. What you do with that time is based on your own desires.
Your instant gratification does not deserve to devalue my long term progress |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
886
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 12:58:13 -
[698] - Quote
Dror wrote:"Guys, really, an unfair playing field is great!"
LOL.
Please stop posting, you do not get to pay some 50 bucks you insta-train your titan of choice you feel entitled to have on day one.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 13:05:57 -
[699] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Dror wrote:"Guys, really, an unfair playing field is great!" LOL. Please stop posting, you do not get to pay some 50 bucks you insta-train your titan of choice you feel entitled to have on day one. You seem to imply that this discussion is about SP trading. It's actually about having a fair opportunity from removing SP.
Mike Voidstar wrote:You would have a point if all of EVE was a 1v1 pvp fight.
It's not. There are many roads, many choices. Currently all you buy is time in game. What you do with that time is based on your own desires.
Your instant gratification does not deserve to devalue my long term progress
Dror wrote:You're the one arguing for opportunity cost (to the detriment of a fair playing field). Prove it, then. Your anecdote is unconvincing, especially next to research.
A reduced toolset decreases engagement windows and thus content, yeah?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
958
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 14:43:10 -
[700] - Quote
If you really believe that reducing all complexity and depth in the game improves it, you should probably go find yourself an Atari 2600 and load up Pong. |
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:04:37 -
[701] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Dror wrote:You're the one arguing for opportunity cost (to the detriment of a fair playing field). Prove it, then. Your anecdote is unconvincing, especially next to research.
A reduced toolset decreases engagement windows and thus content, yeah? If you really believe that reducing all complexity and depth in the game improves it, you should probably go find yourself an Atari 2600 and load up Pong. So, you have nothing to say. Sweet.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
958
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:19:50 -
[702] - Quote
Nah, it's all been said.
You just have the wrong game. You are looking for something like battlefield where the games are short term intense skirmishes with no real depth or consequences other than stats on a killboard.
You don't want to have to deal with choices and consequences with meaning, you just want to load up instant action and go.
I don't know if there are any good space fighter Sims out there, but that's not what EVE is. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:26:03 -
[703] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Nah, it's all been said.
You just have the wrong game. You are looking for something like battlefield where the games are short term intense skirmishes with no real depth or consequences other than stats on a killboard.
You don't want to have to deal with choices and consequences with meaning, you just want to load up instant action and go.
I don't know if there are any good space fighter Sims out there, but that's not what EVE is. It could be said the same about your very definition of depth and consequence. So, it's OK to reduce content, lower sub interest and referral potential, and set a poor esteem for the game.. just to get some stats in a little stream of basically a non-interactive mechanic (with apparently something about "character value".. which is a complete paradox if SP only provides what it removes)?
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4868
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:44:10 -
[704] - Quote
Cutting a section from the reply to Mike, the final thought it seems.
Dror wrote:...
A reduced toolset decreases engagement windows and thus content, yeah? Content, being defined as partly derived from a toolset. The toolset being important enough to impact content, when reduced.
So, what impact does the actual character's toolset deliver? That being, what the character is good at, or at least useful helping with?
If we focus our characters, in the manner supported by selling and buying SPs to meet demands and 'expected' forms of gameplay... we effectively cut out the unexpected.
Along with the unexpected, the unprepared for conditions, which can happen and expose the players using unprepared characters to loss and frustration.
We see the results of this on one side, from the complaints here, but another side simply has limited capacity for frustration. It just moves on when it hits this limit, and many from this side never return.
A major subset of our population is probably going to make it their mission to prey on these cookie cutter players. We have always had groups which deliberately target other groups, based on such simply defined details. Imagine what would happen if the miner / orca smashing groups targeted these, the way they did high sec PvE groups in the past.
TL;DR: This will probably make one segment happy, by dumbing down the requirements to play in certain specific ways, but a sandbox game should be expected to seek weaknesses, and limited skill sets are highly exposed here.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:57:42 -
[705] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Cutting a section from the reply to Mike, the final thought it seems. Dror wrote:...
A reduced toolset decreases engagement windows and thus content, yeah? Content, being defined as partly derived from a toolset. The toolset being important enough to impact content, when reduced. So, what impact does the actual character's toolset deliver? That being, what the character is good at, or at least useful helping with? If we focus our characters, in the manner supported by selling and buying SPs to meet demands and 'expected' forms of gameplay... we effectively cut out the unexpected. Along with the unexpected, the unprepared for conditions, which can happen and expose the players using unprepared characters to loss and frustration. We see the results of this on one side, from the complaints here, but another side simply has limited capacity for frustration. It just moves on when it hits this limit, and many from this side never return. A major subset of our population is probably going to make it their mission to prey on these cookie cutter players. We have always had groups which deliberately target other groups, based on such simply defined details. Imagine what would happen if the miner / orca smashing groups targeted these, the way they did high sec PvE groups in the past. TL;DR: This will probably make one segment happy, by dumbing down the requirements to play in certain specific ways, but a sandbox game should be expected to seek weaknesses, and limited skill sets are highly exposed here. The bar for what point a game can seem entertaining, through loss, greatly increases with multiple niches. That's because, with multiple playstyles comes more creative methods of making ISK for funding other styles of play. Increased combat effectiveness benefits PvE ISK-making, for example, but to imply that a single gameplay niche can entertain its demographic for their full experience with the game (which is advertised as a full sandbox, including marketing, industry, and other styles) is shallow at best. That's what SP does.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
261
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 17:36:38 -
[706] - Quote
Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:...
I am not sure what the credentials of the authors of that study are, but your quoted section is either taken way out of context or they don't know anything about mmo's and are confusing them with regular multiplayer combat games like battlefield.
The fact that the research he keeps quoting acknowledges at the end of the article that it has serious limitations and also only covers 173 players who self-reported the results (and are therefore doubtful in terms of usefulness) doesn't come into it either apparently... "Guys, really, an unfair playing field is great!"
I would stop posting... making a fool of yourself, you are!
Been around since the beginning.
|
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 17:47:01 -
[707] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:Dror wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:...
I am not sure what the credentials of the authors of that study are, but your quoted section is either taken way out of context or they don't know anything about mmo's and are confusing them with regular multiplayer combat games like battlefield.
The fact that the research he keeps quoting acknowledges at the end of the article that it has serious limitations and also only covers 173 players who self-reported the results (and are therefore doubtful in terms of usefulness) doesn't come into it either apparently... "Guys, really, an unfair playing field is great!" I would stop posting... making a fool of yourself, you are! Maybe you should start posting.. on-topic content.. maybe some that furthers the conversation.
It's a fair statement that a ludicrously gated sandbox deters play.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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ThePiachu Avar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 18:45:22 -
[708] - Quote
Getting back to the topic...
I love the idea of being able to sell skillpoints as described in the dev blog post. However, I would prefer it to be more granular.
I see a lot of use of these items as part of SRP for T3 ships - lose a Tengu? Here is money to buy a new ship and extra to buy back the skill you lost.
If we could have them in bite-sized pieces, say a day worth of training, or somewhere around what is needed to train a T3 skill to level 5, that would be a lot more useful than ~10 days worth of skills that are proposed right now.
The only downside I can see is that we would need some way of consuming / creating multiple packets at the same time. Shouldn't be too hard though. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
963
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 03:01:11 -
[709] - Quote
If it were done by means of resources that could not be traded in game for money, it could maybe be made out to be beneficial. LP rewards in areas that interest the corporation, for instance. Mission rewards, especially missions specifically in low or Null sec. A resource that accrued over time from PI or deployable structures that needed guarding and were vulnerable to theft and destruction.
Things that required active participation in space or required guarding, and could not be just instantly created and consumed with an application of cash. Then it could drive conflict while cheapening the loyalty of long-standing players. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3592
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 04:29:14 -
[710] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Sorry, you don't get to make my value judgments for me.
I don't have a problem with SP. There is more to SP than simple Time=SP.
This game does not have levels. One of my favorite things about this game is that progression isn't tied to how many things I kill. If real life intervenes in my game time, it does not matter other than lost time doing something, I don't log in and suddenly can't do things with my friends because they outleveled me in a few nights.
Real time training is an amazing feature, and while it's not technically going to go away, it will realistically cease to be a factor in character progression. It will be a minor little detail next to the overall grind for ISK and throwing dollars at the screen for the AUR to make the skill packets.
Consider the ramifications for the upcoming capital changes. When they go live, each cap pilot has some decisions to make.... Bring up skills for tech 2 cap weapons, train for the new class of cap, train for the other new cap sized modules, etc. You should see a shakeup in the metagame, possibly even the shape of the blue doughnut will waver as the fallout from the changes work their way into the game.
Except that with this change a day later you will see a horde of farmed characters disassembled, money for AUR tossed in CCP's lap, and all or most of the bigger alliances's cap pilots will have all of that, instantly. No long term strategy, nothing but some insta-baked max skilled characters dominating anyone without the cash both in game and IRL to match them overnight. By the time those without catch up all the shake up of the meta will long since be over and done with.
You can't buy that effect off the character bazaar. Nor can you correct for opportunity costs unless the exact thing you want happens to be available.
I am a busy man IRL. I have 2 kids that I raise myself, a job with long and inconvenient hours and a long commute, and a few social obligations. Without the real time training I would long ago have allowed my account to lapse, because I often go weeks at a time without even the opportunity for a couple hours shooting rats. I am not the only one. This will cost those subscriptions. Both because there is no point if I can just buy the lost time back, and because it instantly devalues any dedication to the game.
Mike and I have had our differences, but this point I completely and wholeheartedly agree with him.
What Mike said.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
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Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 09:54:24 -
[711] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I am a busy man IRL. I have 2 kids that I raise myself, a job with long and inconvenient hours and a long commute, and a few social obligations. Without the real time training I would long ago have allowed my account to lapse, because I often go weeks at a time without even the opportunity for a couple hours shooting rats. I am not the only one. This will cost those subscriptions. Both because there is no point if I can just buy the lost time back, and because it instantly devalues any dedication to the game.
And there are thousands, at least %80 of player base are playing more actively. Yet they are supposed stay behind someone, who doesnt log for weeks, just because hes paying CCP for longer than those active players. Also this player claims he is "dedicated" player, why ? because hes paying money to CCP regularly.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
971
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 10:45:24 -
[712] - Quote
You don't have to stay behind me.
You can achieve vast sums of isk that I will never see, participate in battles that will never interest me. Create things I will never have the resources or infrastructure to even attempt.
The one thing that makes it worth it to those like me is that I can go at my own pace and not be crippled. Everyone starts out the same and builds the same, with the same opportunities and hardships.
Except that with this change everyone not either immeasurably space rich or real life rich will be relegated to the problem newbies are complaining about now. All that will change is who is at the bottom of an unclimbable well. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 13:00:44 -
[713] - Quote
All those things you mentioned requires vast amount of SP.
Obviously you dont know anything about pvp since you say it doesnt interest you. You cant do pvp properly with a brand new character because almost all situations you will find yourself in will favor your opponent.
Well of course you can still do pvp theoretically, if you call getting obliterated by others, pvp. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4868
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 15:08:57 -
[714] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:All those things you mentioned requires vast amount of SP.
Obviously you dont know anything about pvp since you say it doesnt interest you. You cant do pvp properly with a brand new character because almost all situations you will find yourself in will favor your opponent.
Well of course you can still do pvp theoretically, if you call getting obliterated by others, pvp. Please avoid using Ad Hominem attacks.
If you insist on making unsupported assumptions, such as Mike not knowing about PvP, it could call into question other statements you have made seemingly with similar confidence.
A lack of interest does not equal a lack of knowledge. Quite to the contrary, especially to many players described as being 'jaded', the lack of interest exists because of excessive familiarity with the concept.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
972
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 15:15:56 -
[715] - Quote
Not really.
PvP in EVE, among those who aren't knocking over noncombat ships, generally favors the side with more friends. That scales from highest to lowest, and I have seen hero tackling newbie frigates become the lynchpin of an engagement. It does not interest me, that does not mean I have not done it.
SP only gates the scale of your combat. All PvP folks die in droves. PvP ships are as disposable as a used diaper. Nothing stops you from seeking a fight on your own terms.
While a certain minimum sp are required to fit a basic ship, everything after that is a refinement, not a requirement. |
Lis Aivo
The I.R.S NightSong Directorate
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 16:53:04 -
[716] - Quote
SP only gates the scale of your combat
Partly true. Its not only preventing your fight scale, it also keep your options very limited. Also as i tried to tell before, there are a lot of players in low/null sec area who has a lot of Sp over newbie character and again this kind of situation ends up with unfair fight for newbie.
generally favors the side with more friends
True nothing to say about that. But not everyone can easily outnumber the other people on the grid or may not want to do. As myselft dont like to roam with 30 people and do blops.
I have seen hero tackling newbie frigates become the lynchpin of an engagement
well this mostly works for null sec area. Also hero tackling isnt fun at all. you almost die everytime instantly even if you get the job done. Boosters are one of the most important things also but people dont play as booster. They use alts for it. Tackling is kinda similar to that. Its easy and important but also not fun. That why always noobs are the tacklers in the crowded fleets.
While a certain minimum sp are required to fit a basic ship, everything after that is a refinement, not a requirement.
This is also true that you may not need more Sp when you reach a certain point. But reaching at that point is pain in the ass currently. This is the problem we are trying to solve here.
Nothing stops you from seeking a fight on your own terms
nothings stop you right but good luck finding a fight that wont smash you and your newbie friends in seconds. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1875
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 17:35:37 -
[717] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:...
While a certain minimum sp are required to fit a basic ship, everything after that is a refinement, not a requirement.
This is also true that you may not need more Sp when you reach a certain point. But reaching at that point is pain in the ass currently. This is the problem we are trying to solve here.
....
This highlight one of my main problems with this idea though, it basically means telling new players to throw a ton of cash at the game to reach some perceived point of utility for their character. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4868
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 17:47:59 -
[718] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lis Aivo wrote:...
While a certain minimum sp are required to fit a basic ship, everything after that is a refinement, not a requirement.
This is also true that you may not need more Sp when you reach a certain point. But reaching at that point is pain in the ass currently. This is the problem we are trying to solve here.
.... This highlight one of my main problems with this idea though, it basically means telling new players to throw a ton of cash at the game to reach some perceived point of utility for their character. THIS
With this change, the game will be pushing for conformity. Either by edict, to meet fleet or other requirements, or by expediency, to fit an expected minimum requirement.
The mechanic places value on the character having few enough SP, so that they get the best possible return on investment with these SP packets. I expect this will encourage players to use minimum expected skill ranks to achieve desired proficiencies, causing more characters to be designed in spreadsheet logic than ever before.
Does anyone doubt these characters will have a significantly higher rate of mortality, than current characters expect?
Setting the expectation that players can have characters skilled now, implies that they will be comparably useful in the game against existing players with opposing goals.
TL;DR: We may well get a wave of new players with this, but they will likely be massacred as soon as they meet the players who grew into using characters more slowly. I just hope we pick up more than we lose, through this experimental pay to learn mechanic.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3593
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 18:53:59 -
[719] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:...
Sure I am aware of the character bazaar. It's fundamentally different.
With the character bazaar you might can find a character trained to whatever doctrine your favorite FC is using, but it's not a guarantee, you are paying for other stuff you don't need, etc, etc...
It does not lend itself to what's coming next, which is the same sort of power creep enjoyed by all the other pay to win games. New Ships, OP relative to existing ships, that use all new skills or else uncommon combinations of skills. Ditto with new weapons, modules, etc... Probably just straight up new skills for new functionality---all added to make you want to buy the SP packs to be first on the block to use the new stuff.
With skill packs you open a new door to all sorts of darkness. We will still have newbies crying about not being able to be competitive until Skills X, Y, and Z are trained to level 5.... only now instead of inviting them into our missions to catch bounties and become familiar with the game in a more organic fashion, or tossing them into cheap tacklers and whatnot, they will just be told to buy the appropriate skill points and build the flavor of the month on the spot. Those that don't spend the cash up front will wind up ostracized for not being team players, and a whole other cascade of nasty that this will engender because that's just human nature.
It's not the same or equivalent to the bazaar at all, and is ultimately exactly what the Jita Riots are all about, just repackaged in a way that appeals to the gotta have it now crowd.
exactly this, new players will now be expected to buy the skill packs. They'll also be told where to put the points and not in a way that they learn from. They won't know why, they won't understand the effect of the skills, they'll just have to do as they are told or simply bumble through feeling even more disenchanted as they will now have an even greater feeliong of being left behind. This of course doesn't even cover how those not rich enough to buy the packs will feel.
To be fair, I think that the expectation of buying new packets will diminish as players cross various thresholds. I don't care if it were my alliance leader who told me to go buy the SP to fly a given doctrine. I'd tell him to send me the RL cash or FOADIAF. Because at my current SP level I'd need to buy 10x the actual SP needed for that doctrine. So if it were 2 million SP I'd need to buy 20 million SP and my actual out-of-pocket RL expenditure would be quite large. So I am not going to drop ~$200* over and above my subscription costs just to be able to fly a doctrine. FC's and alliance leaders aren't that dumb (well usually). Even for characters between 50-80 million SP, the cost for that 2 million SP would ~$50, also somewhat ridiculous for an FC or an alliance leader to demand players just pony up. They might, but my guess is that alliance will not be around very long, and said FC will soon find nobody wanting to log into their fleets.
Even trying to buy with ISK might necessitate a substantial investment in terms of in game grinding. For example, if you are ratting and you are a new guy and you can run havens and sanctums (huge assumption here) youGÇÖll makeGǪwhat? Maybe 60-70 million ISK/hour. To afford the SP packet if you are over 5 million SP is just under 22 hours of uninterrupted ratting. Yeah, yeah I know incursionsGǪproblem there is that while the payout is possibly higher (assuming you can get in the fleet with a 6, 7 or 8 million SP character) there has to be an incursion you can get to, and there has to be a fleet to run it. In economics this is a matching problem and it makes such things less likely (think of finding matches for organ transplants, you need to find a recipient and suitable donor and this dual coincidence makes it so that there may be say, a kidney and a guy needing a kidney, but they are incompatible matches, so it is like there is no kidney). In other words, every time I log in I may not find an incursion I can run.
Finally, my guess is that the best way for a new player to GÇ£buy SPGÇ¥ and be able to get in on most fleet ops: logistics. I have yet to see an FC turn down another logistics ship. Many alliances even structure their SRP so that if on the rare chance the logi does die, and your ship was insured youGÇÖll actually make ISK. Granted, it may not let you rack up kills, but youGÇÖll always be welcome in fleet and nobody will say, GÇ£Go buy SP packets.GÇ¥ In fact, you
*This assumes a stable market where the market forces push the price of SP packets to be approximately 1/4th the price of PLEX. If this is a market that becomes prone to bubbles then WTFK.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3593
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 19:51:25 -
[720] - Quote
Okay, so there I was in a boring webinar when I started thinking about how much money a new player would be inclined to spend with this new program. If he buys 3 PLEX and then turns them into SP (e.g. sells the PLEX and uses the ISK to buy SP packets) he could get ~6.2 million. Then my next thought wasGǪhow much training time is that? I assumed that he has his attributes set to average since heGÇÖll probably be training different skills with different primary and secondary attributes and settled on 1860 SP/hour. This also gives us a GÇ£baseline caseGÇ¥ scenario in terms of training time. We are talking 3,333 hoursGÇÖ worth of training or about 4.5 months (given that 8760/12 = 730 the average hours in a month).
One thing our intrepid newbie could do would be to optimize for spaceship command and gunnery and use the SP packets to get engineering and electronics skills out of the wayGǪwell some of them. To get the E&E skills to levels most people consider required well probably eat up all of that 5.7 million SP heGÇÖll be buying off the market.
So he can shave off 3-5 months of training Gǣboring yet importantGǥ skills and start training some of the Gǣgood stuffGǥ much sooner. But really, to get to the point of where you are going to be able to jump into doctrine ships with little fussGǪyou should be shopping in the character bazaar.
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4870
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 20:14:36 -
[721] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Okay, so there I was in a boring webinar when I started thinking about how much money a new player would be inclined to spend with this new program. If he buys 3 PLEX and then turns them into SP (e.g. sells the PLEX and uses the ISK to buy SP packets) he could get ~6.2 million. Then my next thought wasGǪhow much training time is that? I assumed that he has his attributes set to average since heGÇÖll probably be training different skills with different primary and secondary attributes and settled on 1860 SP/hour. This also gives us a GÇ£baseline caseGÇ¥ scenario in terms of training time. We are talking 3,333 hoursGÇÖ worth of training or about 4.5 months (given that 8760/12 = 730 the average hours in a month).
One thing our intrepid newbie could do would be to optimize for spaceship command and gunnery and use the SP packets to get engineering and electronics skills out of the wayGǪwell some of them. To get the E&E skills to levels most people consider required well probably eat up all of that 5.7 million SP heGÇÖll be buying off the market.
So he can shave off 3-5 months of training Gǣboring yet importantGǥ skills and start training some of the Gǣgood stuffGǥ much sooner. But really, to get to the point of where you are going to be able to jump into doctrine ships with little fussGǪyou should be shopping in the character bazaar.
If they are being mentored, coached, or even just researched far enough to learn the real foundation skills, I would agree.
But we have tutorial things, with a pretty robot voice over named Aura.
I would expect a great many will follow this tutorial, and guess what they need to know based off of it's guidance.
Now, under this probable guidance, and wanting to jump into the fun thinking the rest of the game is as easy as the tutorial, they will likely make the same mistakes many of us did at first. Pick the wrong skills, or more precisely, skills that end up being useless in what we end up enjoying to play.
Except they will buy these skills wholesale, and plug them in, thinking they were truly clever in bypassing a tedious part of skill grinding. At some point, they will probably realize they wanted different skills.
Then they will be upset over wasting money, instead of time. Except many of us who wasted SOME time, figured it out before we finished learning these wrong skills. Someone gives us tips, we make friends who help us figure it out, etc.
They bypassed the part where they get help and guidance, by seeking instant gratification.
Yes, I bet they will be relieved to get this life lesson past them, and more than happy to sink a comparable amount of money into the game again, so they can grab the skills they really want.
I am sure some negative thinkers can come up with alternate responses, but I won't bore us with such bleak ideas.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3594
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 20:38:29 -
[722] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Okay, so there I was in a boring webinar when I started thinking about how much money a new player would be inclined to spend with this new program. If he buys 3 PLEX and then turns them into SP (e.g. sells the PLEX and uses the ISK to buy SP packets) he could get ~6.2 million. Then my next thought wasGǪhow much training time is that? I assumed that he has his attributes set to average since heGÇÖll probably be training different skills with different primary and secondary attributes and settled on 1860 SP/hour. This also gives us a GÇ£baseline caseGÇ¥ scenario in terms of training time. We are talking 3,333 hoursGÇÖ worth of training or about 4.5 months (given that 8760/12 = 730 the average hours in a month).
One thing our intrepid newbie could do would be to optimize for spaceship command and gunnery and use the SP packets to get engineering and electronics skills out of the wayGǪwell some of them. To get the E&E skills to levels most people consider required well probably eat up all of that 5.7 million SP heGÇÖll be buying off the market.
So he can shave off 3-5 months of training Gǣboring yet importantGǥ skills and start training some of the Gǣgood stuffGǥ much sooner. But really, to get to the point of where you are going to be able to jump into doctrine ships with little fussGǪyou should be shopping in the character bazaar.
If they are being mentored, coached, or even just researched far enough to learn the real foundation skills, I would agree. But we have tutorial things, with a pretty robot voice over named Aura. I would expect a great many will follow this tutorial, and guess what they need to know based off of it's guidance. Now, under this probable guidance, and wanting to jump into the fun thinking the rest of the game is as easy as the tutorial, they will likely make the same mistakes many of us did at first. Pick the wrong skills, or more precisely, skills that end up being useless in what we end up enjoying to play. Except they will buy these skills wholesale, and plug them in, thinking they were truly clever in bypassing a tedious part of skill grinding. At some point, they will probably realize they wanted different skills. Then they will be upset over wasting money, instead of time. Except many of us who wasted SOME time, figured it out before we finished learning these wrong skills. Someone gives us tips, we make friends who help us figure it out, etc. They bypassed the part where they get help and guidance, by seeking instant gratification. Yes, I bet they will be relieved to get this life lesson past them, and more than happy to sink a comparable amount of money into the game again, so they can grab the skills they really want. I am sure some negative thinkers can come up with alternate responses, but I won't bore us with such bleak ideas.
Good point. My first days in EVE were spent mining. I thought, IGÇÖll build a huge mining empire! Then I found out how boring mining was. But this was back in the day of can flipping and a guy came along and explained can flipping and how he wanted to jettison a can, IGÇÖd put my ore in it and when somebody would flip heGÇÖd kill them (later heGÇÖd bring in a hauler, haul the ore back to the station and would trade it too me). We chatted and he told me about learning skills and other stuff, then asked if I liked mining. No, but I can make ISK. He said, go combat run missions, better ISK and in a little while youGÇÖll be able to PvP. So, back to the character creation screen and with some words of advice from my mentor I made a new character. I found I disliked missions almost as much as I did miningGǪbut then I found the 1/10 DED sites in Gallente space and that by running them could make good ISK some of the modules that dropped. Even got a bit of PvP in as well. All thanks to about an hour or so of conversation in game. From that point forward my training was almost entire combat oriented.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3595
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Posted - 2015.10.27 22:54:09 -
[723] - Quote
Another thing people should remember is the diminishing returns with respect to skills. Once you get those support skills trained (e.g. the gunnery support skills which provide a benefit across all gun based weapons platforms) additional gunnery skill points is not going to be providing a huge advantage. The common notion is that a guy with 120 million SP will always win out over a player with say 60 million SP.
This idea is nonsense. The reason it is nonsense is that while sure the guy with 120 million SP will have more options/versatility than the guy with 60 million SP there is one fact that renders much of those SP both players have as irrelevant. You have to fly a specific ship. I cannot undock with a magic bag holding all my ships so that I can reship to the optimal ship given what my opponent is flying. As IGÇÖm roaming around I am in a given ship. If it is a T3 destroyer, say a svipul, well then all my SP for Gallente, Amarr and Caldari ships is useless at that point in time. The SP in hybrids and lasers and missilesGǪuseless. All my drone skills? Useless. Even my skills in Minmatar cruiser, battle cruiser, and battleship are useless. The fact that I can fly 2 different dreadnaughts, 3 different carriers and can fit T2 tactical logistics and weapon reconfiguration modulesGǪuseless. I am in a svipul and only the skills pertaining to that ship and its modules are what matter, and that guy with 60 million SPGǪif he is in a svipul too, we probably have pretty much the same skills although I have 2x the skills he does.
Also, the benefit of SP is decreasing over time spent training. Consider a rank 1 skill that provides a benefit of 5%/level. The benefit/SP for training level 1 is 0.002/SP. For level 5 the (marginal) benefit/SP is 0.00000023/SP. Yes, if everything else between two players is equal (same ship, same weapons, same non-SP related skill, etc.) then the player with the greater SP will win. But that ceteris paribus assumption leaves out a Hell of a lot of other factors that affect the outcome of a 1-v-1 fight, never mind a larger fight between two gangs or two fleets.
So, the only real leg people who want to buy SP have to stand on is, GÇ£I want to do more sooner than laterGÇ¥GÇöi.e. you are impatient and canGÇÖt be bothered to find ways to amuse yourself before you go welp your dread to a low sec gate camp. Fine.
Character bazaar is that way --->
And soon, youGÇÖll have skill packets too.
Now, STFU and stop trying to ruin the game for the rest of us.
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Zsha
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2015.10.28 04:01:14 -
[724] - Quote
I think if using a skill extractor and you want to extract and remove a skill thats been previously injected and remove all of the skillpoints from the skill, essentially leaving 0sp in an injected skill, there should be an option to remove an injected skill with 0 skillpoints in it.
Such an annoyance having skills which don't need but accidentally trained/injected |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3595
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 07:53:33 -
[725] - Quote
Zsha wrote:I think if using a skill extractor and you want to extract and remove a skill thats been previously injected and remove all of the skillpoints from the skill, essentially leaving 0sp in an injected skill, there should be an option to remove an injected skill with 0 skillpoints in it.
Such an annoyance having skills which don't need but accidentally trained/injected
Are you actually trying to say something here?
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
746
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Posted - 2015.11.01 00:50:56 -
[726] - Quote
Back to where it's suppose to be.
Allowing me to purchase skills is essential. So often I'm left without something to do because I simply do not have the points required to do those activities effectively.
Any who disagrees is selfish and should be censored from the internet. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3601
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 07:00:53 -
[727] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Back to where it's suppose to be.
Allowing me to purchase skills is essential. So often I'm left without something to do because I simply do not have the points required to do those activities effectively.
Any who disagrees is selfish and should be censored from the internet.
You lack the imagination? Really? I find that it is only that as I gain more SP that I find myself bored with the game.
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Vypera Blackneck
NerdHerd The Explicit Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 09:24:41 -
[728] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Back to where it's suppose to be.
Allowing me to purchase skills is essential. So often I'm left without something to do because I simply do not have the points required to do those activities effectively.
Any who disagrees is selfish and should be censored from the internet. You lack the imagination? Really? I find that it is only that as I gain more SP that I find myself bored with the game.
I kinda feel the same. but it might be because of the game content, not necessarily because of the skills :) |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
752
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 20:49:03 -
[729] - Quote
The game's current progression mechanic is nothing other than a glorified automated cookie clicker.
You don't even have to click the cookies yourself to go to the next level. You don't even have to have the program open, it just all happens in the background with zero interaction required.
Imagination? lol, yea your vision is sooooo superior |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
169
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 18:19:25 -
[730] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:The game's current progression mechanic is nothing other than a glorified automated cookie clicker.
You don't even have to click the cookies yourself to go to the next level. You don't even have to have the program open, it just all happens in the background with zero interaction required.
Imagination? lol, yea your vision is sooooo superior
Thanks for keeping up the spam go. By spreading your "wise" thoughts you are actually doing a favor to everyone who is against this
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
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Posted - 2015.11.07 19:15:18 -
[731] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:The game's current progression mechanic is nothing other than a glorified automated cookie clicker.
You don't even have to click the cookies yourself to go to the next level. You don't even have to have the program open, it just all happens in the background with zero interaction required.
Imagination? lol, yea your vision is sooooo superior Thanks for keeping up the spam go. By spreading your "wise" thoughts you are actually doing a favor to everyone who is against this Analogy is complicated stuff. He pointing out that SP must be earned by in-game actions at least partly.
Pinky Bear
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3606
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 21:38:19 -
[732] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:The game's current progression mechanic is nothing other than a glorified automated cookie clicker.
You don't even have to click the cookies yourself to go to the next level. You don't even have to have the program open, it just all happens in the background with zero interaction required.
Imagination? lol, yea your vision is sooooo superior Thanks for keeping up the spam go. By spreading your "wise" thoughts you are actually doing a favor to everyone who is against this Analogy is complicated stuff. He pointing out that SP must be earned by in-game actions at least partly.
Actually, no not really. Once the change is implemented allowing SP buying and selling yes, but now, no.
And like many who favor buying or even removing SP entirely he is relying on a reductio ad absurdum argument.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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General Lootit
RDS Academy Everyb0dy Knows
154
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Posted - 2015.11.07 22:09:52 -
[733] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: And like many who favor buying or even removing SP entirely he is relying on a reductio ad absurdum argument.
It's popular method of argueing not only among those who favor this idea. Recent example
Anyway wise man said
Portmanteau wrote:Stop making convenient and untrue generalizations about the motivations(and methods) of those who disagree with you.
Pinky Bear
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TheSylance
Enchanted Minds Black Mesa Security
1
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Posted - 2015.11.10 09:07:11 -
[734] - Quote
I think its a very bad idea. I like most of the stuff you do, but this is no good thing. Every player in Eve can achieve a very important PVP-role as tackler within 2 days and from there improve his abilities. But just buying SP (when you have the RL money to buy lots of GTCs for selling Plexes ingame) favors those who just start eve and have a lot of RL money.
You will not only boost the "new chars" but you will take the worth of the Skill-achivements ppl. who do not own much RL-money have made. And that also counts for the "rookies" who play since 6 months or so. |
Marin Lunaire
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 14:22:21 -
[735] - Quote
Just cap it at 20m sp on the receiving end. Very active new players will be able to boost their training via isk and the vets won't get pissed. Fixed. |
Jadon Wallace
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2015.11.14 18:57:05 -
[736] - Quote
Marin Lunaire wrote:Just cap it at 20m sp on the receiving end. Very active new players will be able to boost their training via isk and the vets won't get pissed. Fixed.
I am going to assume by 'very active' this translates into grind or simple probability, this system would be for the real life peeps with lots of disposable income, both new and veteran who can pull out the credit card to get some great SP toons from the get-go. This system is not new player friendly and can be very damaging to the game. |
Sola Fide
Dogz Nutz
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 14:23:08 -
[737] - Quote
While we are waiting for the answer, which at this rate will be never, could you not:
1. Allow monthly remaps 2. Allow Attribute implants to be unplugged and replugged in.
Modules and ships can be swapped at will in station, why do I have to jump clone to do this with Attribute implants? They would still be an item you can lose, but the choice between popping them out to PVP for an hour or two then popping them back in when you have finished seems more logical.
Does not fix the problem, but makes it so much more usable in the interim |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University Ivy League
7
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Posted - 2015.11.15 16:31:05 -
[738] - Quote
Lot's of conflicting reasons as to why this would be 'bad for the game', and a lot of it looks like attempts at justifying an emotional reaction to the idea.
My reaction: I can't see this having more negative effects than positive. I don't see how this hurts long time players beyond being put out that not everyone has to put in the time they did to get their SP, but character selling already does that. New players that can't afford to spend more money on the game are no worse off than they are now.
That's my initial thoughts on the matter, not ana attempt to convince anyone of anything.
Personally I have not and have no plans to pour real money into the game, but I like the idea of saving ISK to spend on speeding my skill training. |
IcyMidnight
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
9
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 05:35:23 -
[739] - Quote
I'm not particularly in love in the attribute system for training, but if you want to keep it around for other things (like not having to rework the implant system) I propose the following:
1. At any time a character can choose a target map e.g. 27/17/21/17/17 or if you want +10/0/+4/0/0 2. At downtime each day every skill that is below the target map increases by one point and takes that point from the skill most above the target map.
This way there's still some game play around optimizing your map in the short term and you pay a cost for remapping, but you're not stuck and penalized for not being able to predict a year into the future. You end up being outside of your target map for at most 10 days and I suspect that you'll find that average time to map convergence is close to that number as well. |
Abra Ka Dabra
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.11.20 21:43:27 -
[740] - Quote
I love it! When are we getting it!! |
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Naxirian
Target Acquired
33
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Posted - 2015.11.29 10:41:29 -
[741] - Quote
I've had a long think about this over the past couple of months, talking to newer players, older players, looking at the current situation with gameplay and content in the game etc.
Whilst I was initially against the idea of being able to "buy" SP to create customized characters, I have since changed my mind. Anything that can make it easier for new blood to get into the game, without dumbing down the actual game itself, is good in my opinion. I've been playing for over a decade in total and I know that buying SP will not make someone dangerous or good at the game. It will simply allow them to have more freedom in what they can potentially do.
The issues with the game right now are the utterly broken links system, broken and overpowered ships *coughorthrusgarmurcough*, and (from my decade long perspective) a shrinking userbase. So if we can fix links, bring ships back into line with each other, and introduce and retain new blood into the game, I say do whatever it takes to achieve that. Adding the ability to buy SP from other toons won't break the game, but it may help get newer players into the game and retain them, and that can only be a good thing in the long run. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3841
|
Posted - 2015.11.29 18:00:25 -
[742] - Quote
Lis Aivo wrote:All those things you mentioned requires vast amount of SP.
Obviously you dont know anything about pvp since you say it doesnt interest you. You cant do pvp properly with a brand new character because almost all situations you will find yourself in will favor your opponent.
Well of course you can still do pvp theoretically, if you call getting obliterated by others, pvp.
Well I do know something about PvP, and I can tell you that while SP obviously help it is not the be all and end all. For example, I would almost surely die to 10 12.5 million SP players. I'd be in trouble with 5 12.5 million SP players in many circumstances. In the first instance our total SP would be equal, 125 million on one side spread among 10 players, and 125 million in one player. In the second instance I'd have 2x the SP of the 5 players. But, if they fit their ships right and use them right they may very well have far more DPS than I can tank/dish out myself.
And I love these claims, "you can't do PvP in a brand new character...." First off just about everything you do is PvP. If you pop an asteroid before that other miner....PvP. You put a sell order and undercut the other guys....PvP. Also, Goons seem to do a pretty good job getting brand new players into PvP pretty quick. Yes...they operate in larger fleets. Had an almost total noob in our fleet a couple of nights ago.
Yes, there is still those initial 2 weeks one has to wait, but hey with the new plan to buy and sell SP, you wont have to wait that long either. For the price of a couple of PLEX you can have 2-4 million SP on day one. Of course, you will not have learned some of the non-SP related aspects of PvP such as maintaining transversal, how optimal and falloff work, stacking penalties, etc. (unless you spent alot of time researching the game, outside of the game) and even then having the theoretical knowledge and being able to apply it in the correct situations will still be something you wont know.
For example, we went into LS the other night and some people would still call for bubbles on gates, or small fast stuff would want to engage until it was pointed out that there are gate guns--i.e. somewhat experienced players who were out of the natural element making some rather basic mistakes.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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h4kun4
Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion
58
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Posted - 2015.12.04 14:29:21 -
[743] - Quote
Some Ideas:
You can buy a SP Reallocation token for AUR or ISK, the number of tokens you can own and buy is of course unlimited but you can't activate more than - lets say three - on one Account and not more than two on one Character, even if it has been sold/switched Accounts, it keeps its remap counter, all the time.
To activate the token, you have to be docked, in a capsule and paused your skill training. After activating a token your Character will be reset to the ones that are basic now for every new charcter and a "skillpoint reallocation menu" (like resculpt but different UI) opens, the Character then enters a "locked state" you can only end by aborting the remap process (you will get the activated token refunded) or by spending every single one of your unallocated Skillpoints.
You get all your skillpoints as unallocated, now you can freely remap all your SP with a drop down menu: 1. Add/Remove Skillpoints - You add/remove a specified number of SP to that skill 2. Increase/Decrease to next Level - sets the level one up or down. 3. Increase/Decrease to Level - you check a checkbox from 0 to 5 and the Skill will be trained to that level 4. Increase to Level 5/Decrease to 0 - it does exactly what it says If you are done you have to veryfiy your decision with a button, before you push that button, you can freely remove any skillpoints and add them somwehre else. After that, your character leaves the "locked state" and you can start with your normal EVE gameplay again. (notes/ideas to finalizing process of the reallocation below)
User Interface and other functions possible: (?)
- The UI shows the number of SP needed for the next level and for level 5 right next to the skill so you can do some calculations (Example how it might look, such wow)
- If avaliable, you can import a skill-plan in the EVEMon-dataformat that offers a preview of what you can train immediately and what is out of reach by the priorities set by you in the plan in EVEMon, you can then adjust which skills to kick out and which to add based on your plan your choice, accept the plan and get it trained, the rest of the SP can then added freely
- Implemented in the "Reallocation Menu" could be a slim version of ISIS, you then click a ship and it shows you the Mastery, then you can either choose "Skill all to Mastery Level x" or choose all the skills by hand and raise them with the aforementioned "drop down menu"
- Alternatively or in addition to ISIS there could be an Item browser where you could add the skill to use any Item you want (bubbles, towers, certain modules, rigs and more)
- If the reallocation is done, there could go up a Skill list where you see all of your current skills in comparison to before, skill which are new or altered are highlighted Green, skills which have been decreased are yellow, and skills which have been "set to 0" are red while skill which stayed the same will not be highlighted. After checking that list you have to confirm it to end the reallocation process.
i hope that makes sense to you, i'd really like to read comments
btw...I think buying/selling SP is a terribad idea, even if its nerfed down, so High SP players wouldng get much out of it |
O'nira
Litla Sundlaugin
75
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 13:12:57 -
[744] - Quote
My biggest problem with this idea is that its taking you so long to implement it.
I would really like it if the sp packets were tied to a lp store or something though rather than plex, i feel like this game gets more and more transaction heavy. i can see why it would be hard/impossible to tie it to anything but plex/aurum however |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
520
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 18:35:33 -
[745] - Quote
There's been so many changes while I was away that it'll literally take months to sort through everything new and proposed. Few things I've read have stopped me in my tracks though. I genuinely hope this isn't a real change being implemented in-game. EVE is about choices that have consequences and learning to adapt from those choices. Purchasing SP is PTW and imo, it would seem to run counter to everything I know and believe this game is. Even shifting SP from one skill to another is a bad idea.
One of my long-term goals in EVE has been to fly a Damnation. I'm not even really sure why. I like the hull. The reason doesn't matter. Because of some lengthy lvl 5 leadership skills and a raft of missile skills I didn't have (because as an Amarr pilot, I focused on beams primarily) and because skill training gets sidetracked every time I have a new idea, this long-term goal has yet to be realized. But it has been a goal for years and has driven my game. The idea that I could just drop a few $$ and attain that goal... one that I've had for years.... instantly... is stupefying.
If this change is implemented, we should just allow players to change races, character names, implants, everything. Let them erase their contract history, employment history, on and on. Sell each change for more PLEX.
When consequences have little meaning: if one change is good, another would be even better.
It's a slippery slope.
YK |
miguel Manjarrez
11
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 07:18:51 -
[746] - Quote
An idea of selling a player skill set points on the market or in contracts would be interesting. Players that have unwanted skills can sell the skills on the different levels or moving points from different skills to others. In question the set up of skills can be different currently a formation of user / actively and interest is an evolving concept than a skill book but what you do and like may be infused with the current system of skill points to a new system of learning activity and user. With the number of skill points add into want is called eve or the pilot. A user and the amount a user has actions in the game universe increases the skill points. Activity what the player does would effect skill points in station (no user to manifestations) low rate of points flying in space moderate activities high rate. the gain skill points use to access the entity of eve and lives on the action, motivation and interest of the eve universe. collection? user skill ? N/A. Different entity's can arise. The different directions can be numerous. The concept of corps entity can amass skills base on the motivation of that corp. ect. Users with multiple manifestations can have their own version of the entity . Not a outlet of other entities it is a direct manifestation of the user and its 3 references of the eve online space. Were all ships and items can be used with only the effeteness and skill used by the pilot can effect the out come of use. The idea were people can enjoy the game and play with out the confines of a book and explore the universe of eve. |
Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
13
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 06:01:43 -
[747] - Quote
I don't care for buying skill points BUT!! I could definitely use a remap because my skills are all over the place.. Hazard of training for what I needed at the time over the years..
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Arkorina
Casa de Toleranta
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 08:04:13 -
[748] - Quote
Iam totaly in favor of buying SP with isk.
BUT ...!!! Why have diminishing returns on the ammount of sp you will get past a certain number of existing SP the character had? I don't understand this.
CCP says the sp on market will come exclusively from players, so having diminishing returns will, at some point lower the ammount of SP in game. I mean WHY? WHY? what is the point of destroying SP for good? They are not ISK wich can be generated easily and spent on items.
This looks very fishy and only implies that diminishing returns mean SP for isk will not come exclusively from players but will be also seeded by CCP on market.
The recent hiring of the Former EA marketing exec (http://www.develop-online.net/news/former-ea-marketing-exec-joins-ccp-games/0214589 ) also sounds very fishy.
If u do sp for isk, and you claim they will come only from players, get rid of diminishing returns. ( I mean why not have diminishing returns on everything player made? on isk and other things?) Most ******** thing i have ever heard in a game.
If u do sp for isk, and they will also be seeded by ccp out of thin air, then dear CCP , may EVE rest in peace. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
258
|
Posted - 2015.12.17 16:26:50 -
[749] - Quote
Arkorina wrote:Iam totaly in favor of buying SP with isk.
BUT ...!!! Why have diminishing returns on the ammount of sp you will get past a certain number of existing SP the character had? I don't understand this.
CCP says the sp on market will come exclusively from players, so having diminishing returns will, at some point lower the ammount of SP in game. I mean WHY? WHY? what is the point of destroying SP for good? They are not ISK wich can be generated easily and spent on items.
This looks very fishy and only implies that diminishing returns mean SP for isk will not come exclusively from players but will be also seeded by CCP on market.
The recent hiring of the Former EA marketing exec (http://www.develop-online.net/news/former-ea-marketing-exec-joins-ccp-games/0214589 ) also sounds very fishy.
If u do sp for isk, and you claim they will come only from players, get rid of diminishing returns. ( I mean why not have diminishing returns on everything player made? on isk and other things?) Most ******** thing i have ever heard in a game.
If u do sp for isk, and they will also be seeded by ccp out of thin air, then dear CCP , may EVE rest in peace.
The seller doesn't lose the sp and they're the ones that earned it (it's removed as a packet, but not lost from the game as such at this point).
It's the buyer that will get varying returns on an sp packet depending on how much sp they have.
So in terms of sp lost from the game, it really doesn't matter. |
Max Muni
Muni Corp
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.21 05:53:59 -
[750] - Quote
TheSylance wrote:I think its a very bad idea. I like most of the stuff you do, but this is no good thing. Every player in Eve can achieve a very important PVP-role as tackler within 2 days and from there improve his abilities. But just buying SP (when you have the RL money to buy lots of GTCs for selling Plexes ingame) favors those who just start eve and have a lot of RL money.
You will not only boost the "new chars" but you will take the worth of the Skill-achivements ppl. who do not own much RL-money have made. And that also counts for the "rookies" who play since 6 months or so.
So, you're obviously in favor of removing the Character Bazaar, and preventing players from buying with RL money high skilled characters. You're also in favor of not selling plex for ISK, so that players can buy ships, or other in game items. You're also not in favor of players using PLEX to ISK to higher merchs to help fight battles, or paying for market contracts, etc, etc,, |
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Unraveller Chase
Unraveller Industries
28
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Posted - 2015.12.23 10:09:09 -
[751] - Quote
SP Trading:
I am not against this idea. If it keeps the SP in the game and even destroys some along the way thats cool. I like the idea of some kind of hard-cap tier system built in though. Below is just something i put together fast but you get the idea.
Per year you can apply unlimited up until the pilot hits say 35M. 35-65M cap at 10M of injection per year. 65-85 cap at 7.5M Injection 85-100M cap at 5M injection Anyone above 100M sp should be on their own from that point on.
Skill remapping?
For some plex/aurum allow up to X amount of SP per year to be reallocated. The price based on pilots total sp pool (more sp = more costly). If a pilot is below 15M sp give them this luxury twice.
Skill training speeds up with in game actions?
It needs to avoid automation to be effective
Use PLEX for SP boost
Something I simply would never like to see.
Neural Remapping Improvements
Give 1 per year for free. PLEX/Aurum for additional remaps, each remap becomes progressively more expensive (Each remap gives +1 tier). One a full year must elapse after each individual remap for the tier to drop by one. Ie each remap is on its own timer.
Attributes and implants
Implants are fine enough as is in my opinion.
My 2 cents.
Fly Safe |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4190
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 18:18:23 -
[752] - Quote
Arkorina wrote:Iam totaly in favor of buying SP with isk.
BUT ...!!! Why have diminishing returns on the ammount of sp you will get past a certain number of existing SP the character had? I don't understand this.
So the veterans are not running around with players with every skill literally maxed out. Most veterans have billions of ISK, some even trillions of ISK. This game is awash in ISK and much of it flows into the wallets of older players, not newer ones.
That is why.
Seriously, google is your friend. Go find out how much ISK enters the game every single day. Here is a hint, whatever number you think it is, you should probably multiply it by 10 at least. And this is per day.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4190
|
Posted - 2015.12.23 18:37:51 -
[753] - Quote
Max Muni wrote:TheSylance wrote:I think its a very bad idea. I like most of the stuff you do, but this is no good thing. Every player in Eve can achieve a very important PVP-role as tackler within 2 days and from there improve his abilities. But just buying SP (when you have the RL money to buy lots of GTCs for selling Plexes ingame) favors those who just start eve and have a lot of RL money.
You will not only boost the "new chars" but you will take the worth of the Skill-achivements ppl. who do not own much RL-money have made. And that also counts for the "rookies" who play since 6 months or so. So, you're obviously in favor of removing the Character Bazaar, and preventing players from buying with RL money high skilled characters. You're also in favor of not selling plex for ISK, so that players can buy ships, or other in game items. You're also not in favor of players using PLEX to ISK to higher merchs to help fight battles, or paying for market contracts, etc, etc,,
No, I see those things as reasonable myself. Further, in both of those cases I see the primary reason as not to help new players, but as a way to hurt the RMT markets (ISK/Character selling). If there is a legitimate CCP approved way to do both in game--i.e. zero risk of getting hit with the ban hammer--then the RMT markets get hit. That is a good thing, and well done CCP for coming up with these creative methods to hurt such markets.
The effect on the game has been, IMO, minimal with regards to buying PLEX and converting them to ISK, or buying in game characters (which is also tied to PLEX).
However, just because those two examples did not have a downside does not mean that selling SP via SP packets will NOT have a downside.
My fear is essentially that of Malcanis' law (the generalized version). If you change the game's mechanics to benefit a sub-group of players (low SP Players in this case) then it may very well be subject to abuse by older more established players.
For example, right now I don't do anything with PLEX. But I also have 2 extra accounts. Those accounts have alts on them that are currently training because...well why not they are after all active accounts. But after this change, I might just set alts on each account training a high ranked skill in perpetuity and periodically drain SP each month to sell on the market. Given the link between SP packets and PLEX I might now be able to buy PLEX for those 2 accounts. Basically I expect PLEX to go up....alot. Or at the very least I'll get lots of ISK flowing into my wallet nearly passively, and passive income sources are generally considered sub-optimal.
Could this create a house of cards that could all come crashing down? Maybe. What would be the impact in game? IDK. Maybe nothing significant...then again maybe not.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.30 11:18:27 -
[754] - Quote
There is an entry barrier. The alts need a certain threshold sp to be able to rip them out.
But beyond that....anyone and their dog can sp farm.
And there is a finite number of potential buyers.
Price equilibrium should be somewhere in the region of "meh, not worth it" when a player considers making a farm account.
Plex inflation is unlikely simply because CCP has started adding them to game as drops in the Frostline series. I imagine adding plexes will continue to control inflation.
Compounded by the service fee. In sum deflationary.
The actual interesting bit is how much isk might be drained from game if isk rich players decide to take a signficant sp loss and tank up on sps.
All told. Its like a Dean in Economics has been involved in EvE in the recent past :).
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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R3d Andven
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.30 18:11:45 -
[755] - Quote
I am new, 2 months, but I was wondering why it just can't be incorporated into the game in the beginning...
We pick our Race and then 1 of 3 groups in it, all of these should have inherent skills that would be "given"
You have 3 different Schools you get to choose from, they could be High School Graduate (Blue Collar - Labor), University (White Collar - Engineering), and Vocational School (Skilled Trades - Technical), each with a certain level of "given" skills and their own Skill Tree
These "given skills" would be nothing major, just the base stuff we spend a month or two on now. As you train in Vocational School or the University, you amass SP to use to buy Skills outside your chosen Skill Tree or to advance the Study Time. Personal Implants could be purchased that allow you to learn at an accelerated rate and/or use a particular Skill temporarily. Once the Skill has been learned, the Implant can be removed and the Skill used normally. This is still with the Pre-requisite Skills Training needed.
I don't see how it will disbalance anything, getting new players up to contention capability quicker should make the Universe more volatile and alive, not just one filled with stodgy old Corps holding onto the same old space and doing the same old things. Everything, even Eve Online must evolve.
If the first mistakes we make are the worst ones, why not make the trial period in a Sandbox Arena that only partially affects the real Eve Universe until we have more of an idea about the game, |
Il Reverendo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2016.01.10 13:06:59 -
[756] - Quote
No. Just no. What the bloody hell has happened to your design philosophy? Sounds like some people need to be beaten with tomb's old bat. Also...hiring ea staff? Possibly the most terrifying thing i've heard abot ccp since eve was in beta. EA?! Are you serious? That's the videogame equivalent of saying 'yeah sure i'll share your needle....what could possibly go wrong?'
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4304
|
Posted - 2016.01.10 19:22:45 -
[757] - Quote
R3d Andven wrote:I am new, 2 months, but I was wondering why it just can't be incorporated into the game in the beginning...
We pick our Race and then 1 of 3 groups in it, all of these should have inherent skills that would be "given"
You have 3 different Schools you get to choose from, they could be High School Graduate (Blue Collar - Labor), University (White Collar - Engineering), and Vocational School (Skilled Trades - Technical), each with a certain level of "given" skills and their own Skill Tree
These "given skills" would be nothing major, just the base stuff we spend a month or two on now. As you train in Vocational School or the University, you amass SP to use to buy Skills outside your chosen Skill Tree or to advance the Study Time. Personal Implants could be purchased that allow you to learn at an accelerated rate and/or use a particular Skill temporarily. Once the Skill has been learned, the Implant can be removed and the Skill used normally. This is still with the Pre-requisite Skills Training needed.
I don't see how it will disbalance anything, getting new players up to contention capability quicker should make the Universe more volatile and alive, not just one filled with stodgy old Corps holding onto the same old space and doing the same old things. Everything, even Eve Online must evolve.
If the first mistakes we make are the worst ones, why not make the trial period in a Sandbox Arena that only partially affects the real Eve Universe until we have more of an idea about the game,
That is how it used to be to a large extent. I still have my very first character (I thought I'd be a miner and build a huge mining operation....then I found out how boring mining is) and he started with like 800,000 SP distributed around various skills for mining and industry.
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Vailen Sere
The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
18
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Posted - 2016.01.14 22:12:43 -
[758] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:[
That is how it used to be to a large extent. I still have my very first character (I thought I'd be a miner and build a huge mining operation....then I found out how boring mining is) and he started with like 800,000 SP distributed around various skills for mining and industry.
Yup. they should just allow this, get rid of attribute implants and make sp gains a flat 2500 per hour. That would promote healthy skill growth all around.
The negativity seems like bitter vets don't want the youngins to catch up, but in all honesty, the amount of isk a new player would need to catch up is pretty ridiculous.. while your still earning SP at the same time. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1025
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 07:24:14 -
[759] - Quote
Vailen Sere wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[
That is how it used to be to a large extent. I still have my very first character (I thought I'd be a miner and build a huge mining operation....then I found out how boring mining is) and he started with like 800,000 SP distributed around various skills for mining and industry.
Yup. they should just allow this, get rid of attribute implants and make sp gains a flat 2500 per hour. That would promote healthy skill growth all around. The negativity seems like bitter vets don't want the youngins to catch up, but in all honesty, the amount of isk a new player would need to catch up is pretty ridiculous.. while your still earning SP at the same time.
You young paddawns should just be quiet and respect your elders. There is no "catch up". When you has frigate V you are up to speed - the end. The only difference is you train that in 3 days and we had to train for more than a week.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
154
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 01:21:59 -
[760] - Quote
The proposed addition of SP buying is a slap in the face to the veteran players and is spitting on the years of skilling we spent accumulating those points.
Allowing a new player to buy SPs and skill up to 200 million and be at the same level as another player who has worked for 12 years to reach that level is a complete insult to the players who made this game what it is.
The fact that the SP comes from "other" players is irrelevant, because players will just create alts and farm SP on those alts. Nobody is going to sell points off a 200M SP character. They will just create 15 alts with PLEX, train them, then sell their SP. Rich newbs can then buy these farmed SP and unfairly and unjustly skill past players that took years to earn those points.
I would add that for many years there was no training queue so players had to log on frequently day after day to maintain their training. Now a player with money will be able to just zoom past veteran by buying SP off low level farmed clones.
Making EVE pay-to-win like this is a dumb strategy that will backfire and cause core players to lose interest in the game when they see their hard-earned SP become buyable by newbs.
If you think doing this will attract some magic demographic, you are so wrong. What demographic are you trying to attract by doing this? The spoiled-brat-who-pays-to-beat-a-game-in-3-months while he is on summer vacation and then quits? Is that your target demographic?
If you want to see what happens to pay to win games, just look at what is happening to Runes of Magic right now, complete implosion. Their fly-by-night playerbase got sick of buying "diamonds" to gem up and nobody plays the game anymore, for free or for pay.
If you want to make the restriction that injectors can only be used on characters of equal or lower total SP, then fine, it is no net change, but if you let SP from alts get added to high SP characters it will hurt the game and I will consider it a personal insult to the years of effort I have invested into the game as a 12-year-subscriber who was here at the beginning.
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Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
22
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Posted - 2016.02.07 06:39:53 -
[761] - Quote
I personally don't care for sp trading... It is micro transaction based, pay to win crap that will only benefit ccp & the space rich.
What we could benefit from is skill point remaps. Maybe available every 2 years +- A lot of people new to the game start out the same way. Clueless.. and waste a ton of skill points training for the moment instead of core skills, they will need long term.
Now that we have sp trading, yes we could extract the skills and relocate them but that is a huge waste of isk/ money to go that route, just to relocate sp that we have already spent the time training..
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
894
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Posted - 2016.02.08 13:15:11 -
[762] - Quote
Well the prices of extractors just killed low SP character trading.
Which is ok I guess, because transfer fees are a thing and they don't get them.
The issue is that it will also kill multichar training long term and you get 7% less revenue there on top of more people trying to plex by plexing with isk, added by higher plex prices because of extractor use which long term gives you less plex bought by isk buyers (okay and more plex buyers because they can't plex with isk anymore, but also less subs there).
It's good old market canibalism mates. Effects will be in full display in less than a year.
Don't forget the perceived paywall. To give this the finishing blow, people think extractors are too expensive
Good luck with this CCP.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4668
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Posted - 2016.02.08 16:22:53 -
[763] - Quote
Renfus wrote:I personally don't care for sp trading... It is micro transaction based, pay to win crap that will only benefit ccp & the space rich.
No. While somebody who is space rich might take advantage of this, it would not benefit just them. Or do you feel robbed every time you go the grocery store, go to a restaurant, or buy a new shirt. Do you feel guilty when ever you get your pay check for stealing form your employer?
Market transactions are voluntary and thus benefit both the buyer and the seller.
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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
408
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Posted - 2016.02.08 20:31:32 -
[764] - Quote
Thanks CCP Games for making it obvious this is a Pay more to Win at skill training time
source: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/news/2016/skilltrading/SkillTrading_01.jpg
Regards, a Freelancer
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games pay More to win at skill training time, now with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
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Renfus
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
24
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Posted - 2016.02.10 05:21:47 -
[765] - Quote
Yep.. pay to win AND get ripped off on both ends if your just looking to remap your own skill points..
$45 for 10x extractors Extracts 5 mil skill points.. And only redeems 4 mil skill points..
So if I wanted to move 16 mil sp from an alt it would cost me over $150 and I'd only get about 12.8 mil skill points out of it.. That's absolute crap..
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4951
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 06:01:02 -
[766] - Quote
This thread should probably be archived and unstickied as it's no longer relevant.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
95
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 14:19:00 -
[767] - Quote
Droidster wrote: The fact that the SP comes from "other" players is irrelevant, because players will just create alts and farm SP on those alts. Nobody is going to sell points off a 200M SP character. They will just create 15 alts with PLEX, train them, then sell their SP. Rich newbs can then buy these farmed SP and unfairly and unjustly skill past players that took years to earn those points.
Thats not relevant, because it not a very good calculation.. Well there will be players who do this, cause they dont do the math... But well... Why sell SP if PLEX cost over 1bil?
Lets just assume the SP-farmer has an alt which is able to generate SP at about 2600 SP/h... He "pays" this alt with a PLEX. A PLEX cost about 1.2 b PLEX in Eve-Central To have 500000 SP, he needs to train this alt for 192.31 hours, which is equal to 8 days. In a month he will be able to sell 3 Injectors with this alt. An extractor costs 296mil. The injector sells for 645mil. He earns 349mil per injector which makes 1,047,000 ISK So... He pays more for the PLEX than he earns in the first month?
And if more people are selling SPs the price will drop... To roughly the price of the extractors... Where is the profit in that?
I'm not even calculating the time spent to get to 5.5mil SP to be able to use the extractor. And I'm also not calculating the Implants required.
Ideas:
Right click context menu on char -> custom entries
Minimize the docking game
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