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An open letter to the pilots of Alliance warfare

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Rikeka Amarr Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:45:00 - [31] And there are no stations there. For a sec I though I was the only one that noticed till, when I mentioned it, others told me they could see it too.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:50:00 - [32] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. However, Louisa Torres is going to be booted from BoB for giving away our sekrits and will be agent hunted from now until eternity for lying about the fact that it is actually Dev accounts and h4xsploits that give us an advantage. ... or not.... Hope you learn a little from this post some of our enemies because we'd like a nice fight on a gate one of these days when the node comes back up again. Eve Blacklight Style
Riddari Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:50:00 - [33] Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. Spies are demoralizing. A good FC can come up with a good plan which normally would bag a few kills. A member of his gang relaying every single movement and order to the hostile gang undermines it, it demoralises the gang members and in all honesty, isn't very sporting. When fighting against BOB we have had to resort to ordering gangs to align for gate X and state "I'm taking us to gate X at 100km" and instead warp the gang to gate Y at 20km to engage the hostiles there. Seeing entire fleets warp away the moment an FC activates gang warp, seeing gang messages relayed into local by the opponents, knowing that someone is playing a game with you on your team who is doing his damned best to use foul play. That isn't part of a good gaming experience, the one you want to portray. You should evaluate your opponents, work out their previous tactics, see how they respond, scan them, whatever one can do within the limits of the game. But having spies copy/paste-ing commands, plans, convos, voice communications, is incredibly lame. Obviously not everyone feels this way, but I doubt I'd enjoy a sport where a member of my team supplies the opponents with our entire gameplan and playbooks. ¼+¼ a history
Riddari Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Blacklight Hope you learn a little from this post some of our enemies because we'd like a nice fight on a gate one of these days when the node comes back up again. I personally have no need to learn from BOB. Thanks though. ¼+¼ a history
Dungar Loghoth Caldari Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.08 03:59:00 - [35] Originally by: Riddari Obviously not everyone feels this way, but I doubt I'd enjoy a sport where a member of my team supplies the opponents with our entire gameplan and playbooks. Spies are part of the game, and they are the unfortunate downside to having an alliance with 5,000 people in it. I doubt BoB has many spies because Blacklight/Dianabolic/Galavet could probably name each member in their corp if push came to shove - 1,100 is a much more managable number. Spies are pretty much the ultimate blob-counter.
Ultroth Minmatar Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:00:00 - [36] Edited by: Ultroth on 08/10/2006 04:00:37 Louisa, your sig is truly horrifying it's on-par with Manfred sig in the "Unwanted mental images section" Apart from that, and just to prevent such rubbish entering such an excellent thread; BOB = DEV alts MC = BOB alts FIX = MC/BOB alts (McFix is born, do you want fries with that?) If this holds true, isnt everyone an alt of cyvok? The 1st two points make the last i think in a lot of situations, if youre crap at those you wont get the last... "It's better to stay silent and appear stupid, than to open your mouth and leave no doubt!"
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:03:00 - [37] But you guys also use Spies, Riddari. Do you do so just because we use them? Or do you use them to gain the same advantage that they deliver when used effectively? I am not a spy, I don't have the time and I don't find espionage in EvE very exciting or interesting but some people do enjoy it. From the great con, to theft, to espionage, to whatever. That is the way they choose to enjoy this game. I learnt about 3 days in to playing this game that I cannot force people to play the game the same way I would do so, in doing so I found I enjoyed the game more. EvE is a hardcore game, did you have any consideration for the pilots of Tribal Soul, for example, when ASCN removed them from Paragon Soul? Do you not think that in doing so your gamestyle intruded on that of another? That's basically what you're saying to us with regards to spying, isn't it? You're saying that the way we play the game offends, for want of a better word, your own sensibilities. That's fair enough, of course, and as I'm sure you and every other reasonable person would agree it means not a single thing in this game world that CCP have created for us. I embraced the wealth of different specialisations, roles and opportunities that EvE has to offer on that 3rd day, I stopped caring how other people played the game and jsut concentrated on how I wanted to play it. In the course of doing so I have of course upset people, made them cry, I'm sure some have even quit. That's a shame but, ultimately, I've had an amazing time. Those around me have had an amazing time. If I thought about how others want to play this game I'd never have time to play it myself. It's not hard to work out which I'd rather do, and I'd heartily suggest you do the same.
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Riddari Originally by: Blacklight Hope you learn a little from this post some of our enemies because we'd like a nice fight on a gate one of these days when the node comes back up again. I personally have no need to learn from BOB. Thanks though. Everybody can learn from everybody else, Riddari, no one knows everything, even if you learn what NOT to do, you still learn.
Astasia Orian Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:10:00 - [39] Quote: A member of his gang relaying every single movement and order to the hostile gang undermines it, it demoralises the gang members and in all honesty, isn't very sporting. If we're going to talk sporting, what's the stance on logging to save your pod, again and again and again?
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:20:00 - [40] Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:23:00 - [41] Tbh, most of what you think are spies are people who are 'scanner gods'. These are the people that crunch numbers to see if you are moving or not. The spy excuse is way way overblown tbh. Most of the guys are too drunk or tired to bother.
Klaryssa Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 04:55:00 - [42] Originally by: Devoras2 Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev I have yet to be in a gang where we got a kill because of a spy. Every single one has come from good Scanning, Cov Ops work, and great decisions by an FC. I think you guys are letting paranoia take over. Although, I can understand its the only excuse remaining... ;)
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Klaryssa Originally by: Devoras2 Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev I have yet to be in a gang where we got a kill because of a spy. Every single one has come from good Scanning, Cov Ops work, and great decisions by an FC. I think you guys are letting paranoia take over. Although, I can understand its the only excuse remaining... ;) cough Originally by: Cyleth Village People 1 - 0 ASCN end of For those in BoB who knew what that was, it was surely funny for you guys. For those that dont know, it was a BoB spy using the login name "Village People", and started to sing on our TS like a wanna-be idol. It surely confirms that BoB has several spies on our TS. So dont give me that nonsense that EVERY kill and prediction of our movements has come from good scanning, cov ops etc. Our excuse? Our paranoia? Were not excusing ourselves, or resulting to paranoia. Were just pointing out the fact that the almighty BoB cant win their "clean and fair fights", without using teamspeak and forum spies... and offcourse resorting to hate postings on the EVE-O forums. Not much better then AAA/RA tbh. Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Louisa Torres Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:24:00 - [44] Devoras2 - you claim that we CANNOT win a fight without using ts spies (forum spies are a moot point, the intel they provide isn't in realtime). You are incorrect in that assumption. Up until this war I have actually NEVER had the benefit of a teamspeak, realtime, spy. Yet I've won the vast majority of fights I've been involved in. As Riddari says, a good FC can work out plans and tactics without a spy. The same good FC can work out plans that also take in to account a compromised communications system. What that CANNOT do is account for our practiced teamwork and discipline. Sure, it can give us forwarning of a warp-in, or the direction of a warp-in, or who is calling targets and all that juicy goodness that, erm, we can find out anyway. You're, in my opinion, overstating what benefits a spy would give. We obviously believe this, otherwise why would we start singing to you and completely burn that source? You also accuse us of RA / AAA style tactics, which I assume you mean as logon/offski tactics. Well, that's not the manner in which I shall be conducting myself in this thread, perhaps you'd like to start another one up and we can compare notes?
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:26:00 - [45] Edited by: Ab Initio on 08/10/2006 05:27:45 Originally by: Riddari Originally by: Louisa Torres Originally by: Riddari Your list lacked a little something. 4. Spies Spies, though certainly useful, are not essential to winning, Riddari. We generally operate under the assumption that there ARE spies everywhere, that way we aren't surprised if it's actually true. Spies are demoralizing. A good FC can come up with a good plan which normally would bag a few kills. A member of his gang relaying every single movement and order to the hostile gang undermines it, it demoralises the gang members and in all honesty, isn't very sporting. When fighting against BOB we have had to resort to ordering gangs to align for gate X and state "I'm taking us to gate X at 100km" and instead warp the gang to gate Y at 20km to engage the hostiles there. Seeing entire fleets warp away the moment an FC activates gang warp, seeing gang messages relayed into local by the opponents, knowing that someone is playing a game with you on your team who is doing his damned best to use foul play. That isn't part of a good gaming experience, the one you want to portray. You should evaluate your opponents, work out their previous tactics, see how they respond, scan them, whatever one can do within the limits of the game. But having spies copy/paste-ing commands, plans, convos, voice communications, is incredibly lame. Obviously not everyone feels this way, but I doubt I'd enjoy a sport where a member of my team supplies the opponents with our entire gameplan and playbooks. You guys really need to learn to use: A. Scanner. B. Cov-ops. Seriously, we dont need spies to have a cov-ops tell us you're aligning. We dont need spies to see you show up on scanner in a certain direction from us. If you aren't using the same completely legitimate (and encouraged, hell theres a ship class for it) don't jump to the conclusion that it's because we're spying on you. That said, if we do have spies listening to you, we are unlikely to have them sing on your TS.... EDIT: And on a more positive note.. Turning off damage messages and disabling logging makes a big difference too.

Ductoris Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/10/2006 02:25:31 Clearly, this is mere BoB propaganda. We all know that the GMs are just BoB alts. Or are they? Hold on, am I a BoB alt or a MC alt? I want to get my BoB/MC toon forum rules \| Email us\| Our Website! "Wait, there is a game?" There is no game -Kaemonn We wub you ductoris - Xorus <3 teh ducky - Immy

patteSatan Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:45:00 - [47] A very good post by the OP, and I hope we will see more of the same kind of posts, from other alliances.
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.08 05:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Louisa Torres Devoras2 - you claim that we CANNOT win a fight without using ts spies (forum spies are a moot point, the intel they provide isn't in realtime). You are incorrect in that assumption. Up until this war I have actually NEVER had the benefit of a teamspeak, realtime, spy. Yet I've won the vast majority of fights I've been involved in. As Riddari says, a good FC can work out plans and tactics without a spy. The same good FC can work out plans that also take in to account a compromised communications system. What that CANNOT do is account for our practiced teamwork and discipline. Sure, it can give us forwarning of a warp-in, or the direction of a warp-in, or who is calling targets and all that juicy goodness that, erm, we can find out anyway. You're, in my opinion, overstating what benefits a spy would give. We obviously believe this, otherwise why would we start singing to you and completely burn that source? You also accuse us of RA / AAA style tactics, which I assume you mean as logon/offski tactics. Well, that's not the manner in which I shall be conducting myself in this thread, perhaps you'd like to start another one up and we can compare notes? I never claimed BoB could win using just TS spies. I was counter argumenting Klaryssas generalyzing statment that BoB won every engagment, and prediction of our movement due to good scanning, cov ops etc. WITHOUT using spies EVERY time. As for my assumptions im not accusing or attacking you as a person for your tactics. Im accusing those certain elements and players in BoB, who DO resolve to using spies to get the upper hand. That has been very clearly proven by Cyleths post. I agree with Riddari. A good FC knows how to elude and get spies off guard. What your belief and ideals of the usage of spies, doesnt serve or honour my ideal. Spying is a cowardly act imo. Not daring to face the challenge without knowing everything. What fun is that? You ruin the game, then making it more exciting. We are simply "ideological" disagreed. And that source was burnt when your spy started to sing on our TS. All "juicy" info couldnt have been revealed without them. Period. As for comparing BoB to AAA/RA, it was not in a manner off loggoski and the such. Just to point out that certain people in BoB resolve to TS/forum spies as a similarity (loggoffski)to get the upper hand in combat. Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:05:00 - [49] I would dare say that anyone who says there alliance doesn't use spies, simply isn't a high enough ranking member to know about them.
Shittake RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:23:00 - [50] Very good post Louisa. People have claimed that BoB cheat, perhaps some individuals within their ranks may, who knows, but I highly doubt the claim that there is a coordinated haxxorz plan on BoB's part, and the claims that they are "CCP favored". I think those who say this are stuggling to justify a loss in battle against you and instead of looking within first, they lash out at the victors and claim foul play.
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:48:00 - [51] Originally by: Ab Initio I would dare say that anyone who says there alliance doesn't use spies, simply isn't a high enough ranking member to know about them. I would agree. òòòòòòòòòòòò VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
zyphentits Sector 7	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Sir Erighan Edited by: Sir Erighan on 08/10/2006 02:10:32 We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong (besides trying to jump 100+ fleets into the enemy under the current game mechanics which is another topic entirely ). We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason. very very very interesting ---------------------------------------------
Ab Initio Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 06:58:00 - [53] Originally by: zyphen** Originally by:** Sir Erighan Edited by: Sir Erighan on 08/10/2006 02:10:32 We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong (besides trying to jump 100+ fleets into the enemy under the current game mechanics which is another topic entirely ). We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason. very very very interesting I can't speak for everyone else. But when I've been in system during a node crash, I: 1. Close the client. 2. Make sure it's completely unloaded. 3. Start a new client. 4. Login as normal. 5. Wait. No particular tricks other than taking the opportunity to restart the client. Never have too much of a problem getting back in.
Masta Killa BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.08 07:16:00 - [54] To quote a certain TV personality: Could this thread -be- any more egocentric? I don't think anyone cares about Luisa something's thoughts anymore, they're always exactly the same ignorant and arrogant blabber. -------------------------------------- "It's like, we show up and UDIE."
ratking Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 07:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Masta Killa To quote a certain TV personality: Could this thread -be- any more egocentric? I don't think anyone cares about Luisa something's thoughts anymore, they're always exactly the same ignorant and arrogant blabber. Go away, idiot.
Klaryssa Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 08:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Devoras2 Originally by: Klaryssa Originally by: Devoras2 Respect to the topic starter for the advice and tips. Still its fairly useless when we have spies revealing every single move we execute. Dev I have yet to be in a gang where we got a kill because of a spy. Every single one has come from good Scanning, Cov Ops work, and great decisions by an FC. I think you guys are letting paranoia take over. Although, I can understand its the only excuse remaining... ;) cough Originally by: Cyleth Village People 1 - 0 ASCN end of For those in BoB who knew what that was, it was surely funny for you guys. For those that dont know, it was a BoB spy using the login name "Village People", and started to sing on our TS like a wanna-be idol. It surely confirms that BoB has several spies on our TS. So dont give me that nonsense that EVERY kill and prediction of our movements has come from good scanning, cov ops etc. Our excuse? Our paranoia? Were not excusing ourselves, or resulting to paranoia. Were just pointing out the fact that the almighty BoB cant win their "clean and fair fights", without using teamspeak and forum spies... and offcourse resorting to hate postings on the EVE-O forums. Not much better then AAA/RA tbh. Dev I fail to see how singing Village People on TS made your entire fleet engage and die? My statement still stands tho: No gang Ive been in has gotten a single kill from anything that could be attributed to a spy. To my knowledge, nor have any other BOB gangs. The sad thing is, even though we were respected friends once, I am starting to see a 'Counter-strike' mentality appear... theres no longer things such as a good fight; if you get killed the other guy must be cheating somehow. The truth is we ARE good; blowing things up is what we do. We've had a lot of practice, regardless of what any propaganda says. Please take this post (and thread) in the spirit it was intended. We still have a lot of respect for ASCN... There is no way Imperium or the like would recieve a thread like this. <3
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 08:54:00 - [57] As the OP has explained these basic fundemntals of dicilipined operations are the only real I WIN button in eve , every singpel person who tired leading a gang knows exactly how ppl get messy and undiciplined if he lets go and usualy that is the bane of their success. It no just stfu on TS or do and die , it is a mix of this combined with good intel and well XP players who know that they are doing and if they dont , they listen and follow those who do. Ranks and operations are based on who knows what and how well he knows it , if person X is a good covert ops pilot then he is scout period , there is "ohh no i dont want to be a scout i wanan get kill mails or i wanna go npcing " type of crap that i have seen in several alliances. Also there is a point which wasnt mentioned which is the Will to fight , Eve is devided between 2 types of ppl , ppl who log on to fight and ppl who log on to avoid it or run away from it , BOB is about ppl who enjoy this game and log on and pay for it to get in fights everytime , thats the real diff. As for spies , everyone uses them and they are part of gathering intel , no shame in them or exploitation or else every covert ops pilot is a dirty rotten spy and needs to be hanged. As for Gms and hax or bla bla bla tinfoil hattery hokus pokus . Bob ships explode , we get podded , we lose some engaments, we need isk to buy stuff , we lag , we get CTD , our clienst crash just like every single EVE paying customer so wear ur hats gents if u gonna belive that "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks	Posted - 2006.10.08 09:15:00 - [58] Edited by: Lowa on 08/10/2006 09:16:08 Added 2 of that I didnt see mentioned yet. Quote: 1. Close the client. 2. Make sure it's completely unloaded. 2b. Clean out the cache directory 3. Start a new client. 3b. Disable all logging (damage, chats etc) 4. Login as normal. 5. Wait. I would say that 2b is for logging in faster. I've done it several times when first bein unable to log back, clearing it and being back ingame within (less than) 5mins. A node drop is a bit different but I would be very surprised if it does not help for that too (when the node is back up). 3b works for battle lag (at least for me). Cheers, Lowa ps. There are some good tips in here, tbh I had forgotten some. What if the truth was something else?
HordeZla Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.08 10:00:00 - [59] Originally by: Sir Erighan Edited by: Sir Erighan on 08/10/2006 02:10:32 We all hate this game ATM. It's just some people are benefiting while others are being taken advantage of. It's frustrating when a node crashes, BoB is able to load 190 people into TPAR and ASCN can only load 10. Yeah, it could be luck, but when it happens each and every time a node crashes, people start to ask questions. Personally, I'm not accusing BoB of using any exploits, but I would like CCP to explain the situation and what it is we're doing wrong (besides trying to jump 100+ fleets into the enemy under the current game mechanics which is another topic entirely ). We know how to optimize our clients, so there has to be another reason. With the most respect, all bob log in the second it crashes, we run the risk of not winning the field. To me it would seem that not all ascn pilots are prepaired to do the same
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.08 11:48:00 - [60] There is a foolproof way to deal with spies: Make things up as you go. Sounds like a joke but it isnt. I hope anyone who fought with or against us gives us enough credit to admit we do kinda well. Often though we just form a gang and say: so what do we do now? Because there is no planning there is nothing for the spies to report :) And miss Torres: The winners always gets accused of cheating, you win a lot so you get accused a lot. Yes its frustrating but see it like this instead; if someone just accused you of cheating it probably meant you just kicked his ass :)

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