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David Clausewitz
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
4
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Posted - 2011.12.02 05:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, I would like to trade one of the lows on my coercer for another medium because one medium-slot ships are pretty terrible and it's like impossible to kill something without a point and propulsion module. Retribution would be happy with the same deal. Please make it happen so my Coercer (and future Retribution) will actually be able to point something while maintaining a MWD/AB!
Thank you!! |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
431
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Posted - 2011.12.02 05:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Deal with it!
[Retribution, Solo nano gank shield unneutable unkiteable tackler] Overdrive Injector System II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Warp Scrambler II
Dual Light Pulse Laser II Dual Light Pulse Laser II Dual Light Pulse Laser II Dual Light Pulse Laser II Small Nosferatu II
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Don't let anything stop you! Fit a shield tackle nano Retribution! |
David Clausewitz
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
4
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Posted - 2011.12.02 06:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
That's not gonna be very good at catching things, and it will be even worse for the destroyer. It's just too hard to function as a small ship with only 1 medium. |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
431
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Posted - 2011.12.02 06:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
David Clausewitz wrote:That's not gonna be very good at catching things, and it will be even worse for the destroyer. It's just too hard to function as a small ship with only 1 medium.
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Roderick Tazinas
24IC 1st Surplus Distribution Company
1
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Posted - 2011.12.02 06:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Solo -> Vengeance. In fleet you have tacklers. You need to use the right tool for the right job. |
David Clausewitz
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
4
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Posted - 2011.12.02 06:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Roderick Tazinas wrote:Solo -> Vengeance. In fleet you have tacklers. You need to use the right tool for the right job.
Every tool can do the same point/propulsion job except the Coercer and the Retribution. |
Salvia Olima
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
7
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Posted - 2011.12.02 09:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Get a wingman buddy. EvE is not designed to play solo all the time. |
AnzacPaul
Invictus Australis Northern Coalition.
85
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Posted - 2011.12.02 10:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
people arguing like they don't need an extra mid......... |
Cadius Vect
Domination.
1
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Posted - 2011.12.02 11:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fit for max damage, get a buddy in a vengeance to do the tackling. |
Ines Tegator
Project ELT
30
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Posted - 2011.12.02 16:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
There is no reason for a pvp ship to ever have only 1 midslot. If you don't have a point, most FC's will laugh you out of their fleet. Yes there are ways around it, but realistically all it does is gimp that ship in comparison to other hulls. |
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Maroxus
Strategic Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2011.12.02 17:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
So .. you want a Catalyst's layout. In that case can the Cormorant trade a mid for a low? To share the same slot layout of the Thrasher? Also change the Flycatcher's layout, the Sabre's 4/2 would be nice. If the Heretic won't stick with the slot layout tradition (It is a heretic after all) with 3/3 instead of 1/5, then there is no reason for the Coercer/Cormorant/Flycatcher to stick with theirs. |
IceBergSlim
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.12.02 18:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
David Clausewitz wrote:Roderick Tazinas wrote:Solo -> Vengeance. In fleet you have tacklers. You need to use the right tool for the right job. Every tool can do the same point/propulsion job except the Coercer and the Retribution.
David, what Roderick posted is just about the best - and politest, lol - answer you'll receive in here. Yes, agreed, those ships with one mid slot aren't what you would expect a pvp ship to have. However, what do you think the dev's were thinking when they created those ships? That they were insta-broken? No. They have a role. Just like every ship ingame. You just have to figure out what that role is and how best to utilise your chosen ship. Surely you realised this before training/buying one? I mean absolutely no offence by this, but Roderick has it nailed down.
Everything has a role and/or a purpose in EvE. It's just sometimes we don't see it. believe me, I know, lol.
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David Clausewitz
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
6
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Posted - 2011.12.02 19:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
IceBergSlim wrote:David Clausewitz wrote:Roderick Tazinas wrote:Solo -> Vengeance. In fleet you have tacklers. You need to use the right tool for the right job. Every tool can do the same point/propulsion job except the Coercer and the Retribution. David, what Roderick posted is just about the best - and politest, lol - answer you'll receive in here. Yes, agreed, those ships with one mid slot aren't what you would expect a pvp ship to have. However, what do you think the dev's were thinking when they created those ships? That they were insta-broken? No. They have a role. Just like every ship ingame. You just have to figure out what that role is and how best to utilise your chosen ship. Surely you realised this before training/buying one? I mean absolutely no offence by this, but Roderick has it nailed down. Everything has a role and/or a purpose in EvE. It's just sometimes we don't see it. believe me, I know, lol.
The good old "everything happens for a reason", "everything was designed for a purpose" argument.
No, not everything happens for a reason. Maybe the devs had a purpose in mind when they designed these two ships, but just because they had been designed for a reason doesn't mean they were well-designed.
These "tools" may have been designed with some purpose in mind, but they are poorly designed tools, bent and broken and inferior in their function to alternatives due to the one medium slot. |
IceBergSlim
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.12.02 19:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
David Clausewitz wrote:IceBergSlim wrote:David Clausewitz wrote:Roderick Tazinas wrote:Solo -> Vengeance. In fleet you have tacklers. You need to use the right tool for the right job. Every tool can do the same point/propulsion job except the Coercer and the Retribution. David, what Roderick posted is just about the best - and politest, lol - answer you'll receive in here. Yes, agreed, those ships with one mid slot aren't what you would expect a pvp ship to have. However, what do you think the dev's were thinking when they created those ships? That they were insta-broken? No. They have a role. Just like every ship ingame. You just have to figure out what that role is and how best to utilise your chosen ship. Surely you realised this before training/buying one? I mean absolutely no offence by this, but Roderick has it nailed down. Everything has a role and/or a purpose in EvE. It's just sometimes we don't see it. believe me, I know, lol. The good old "everything happens for a reason", "everything was designed for a purpose" argument. No, these ships were badly designed with one medium slot and need to be fixed if they want to be remotely usable in solo/small group pvp work.
David, quite simply, you are wrong. Several people have posted in a polite manner regarding your semi-rant, myself included. There is no need to be terse. Obviously you won't be swayed, which is of course your perogative. I just cannot see you getting a bandwagon of agreement behind you. Maybe I'm wrong, and if you feel SO strongly, contact the dev's and ask them for their justification of those ships with one mid slot. Good luck with that, lol.
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David Clausewitz
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
6
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Posted - 2011.12.02 19:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
IceBergSlim wrote:David Clausewitz wrote:IceBergSlim wrote:David Clausewitz wrote:Roderick Tazinas wrote:Solo -> Vengeance. In fleet you have tacklers. You need to use the right tool for the right job. Every tool can do the same point/propulsion job except the Coercer and the Retribution. David, what Roderick posted is just about the best - and politest, lol - answer you'll receive in here. Yes, agreed, those ships with one mid slot aren't what you would expect a pvp ship to have. However, what do you think the dev's were thinking when they created those ships? That they were insta-broken? No. They have a role. Just like every ship ingame. You just have to figure out what that role is and how best to utilise your chosen ship. Surely you realised this before training/buying one? I mean absolutely no offence by this, but Roderick has it nailed down. Everything has a role and/or a purpose in EvE. It's just sometimes we don't see it. believe me, I know, lol. The good old "everything happens for a reason", "everything was designed for a purpose" argument. No, these ships were badly designed with one medium slot and need to be fixed if they want to be remotely usable in solo/small group pvp work. David, quite simply, you are wrong. Several people have posted in a polite manner regarding your semi-rant, myself included. There is no need to be terse. Obviously you won't be swayed, which is of course your perogative. I just cannot see you getting a bandwagon of agreement behind you. Maybe I'm wrong, and if you feel SO strongly, contact the dev's and ask them for their justification of those ships with one mid slot. Good luck with that, lol.
So that was just a combination of ad hominem and straw man and it completely ignored my legitimate concerns that you either failed to comprehend as a valid response to your argument or just refused to acknowledge as legitimate concerns (which they are).
Quite simply, no you're wrong. Small one-medium ships do not function in this game when you only have two of them, and every other small ship is a better alternative. |
Ines Tegator
Project ELT
33
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Posted - 2011.12.02 19:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Their "role", as it functions now and regardless of the dev's intentions, is to sit in the hangar. Or be used in PVE only.
If the problem is slot layout, just increase the base armor HP of the coercer and move a low to medium. Same functionality (for an amarr ship), and the hull is now usable. Retribution has been discussed elsewhere, but suffice to say, it can afford to lose the utility high. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
5
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Posted - 2011.12.02 19:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
The problem with one-med-slot wonders in PvP combat:
- FCs will laugh you out of their fleet if you don't have a point or scram fitted.
- FCs in frigate gangs will also laugh you out of their fleet if you don't have some sort of propulsion module fitted (because you then lose any ability to control range).
Apparently the intent of the Retri or Coercer was to fit a point or scram and just use crystal swaps to counter any opponent trying to pull away. However, this doesn't deal with the problem of speedy, afterburning frigates getting deep under your guns and out-tracking you into oblivion. (A 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II has a base tracking of 0.417 rad/s and a Light Electron Blaster II has a base tracking of 0.438 rad/s, which is a not-exactly-insignificant edge over the 0.308 rad/s base tracking of a Gatling Pulse Laser II especially considering the fact that these ships are unlikely to be fitting high tracking weapons, although the Coercer's 10%/level tracking bonus makes this less problematic.)
As a result, even if you have a scram to shut down MWDs, you are not going to be able to stop AB or dualprop frigates from getting in under your guns, and you will also be unable to kite drones yourself or get in under the guns of larger ships with propmods fitted.
Never mind that the Jag has Minmatar T2 resists AND the speed needed to out-track you (and often fits 125mm/150mm guns due to the fact the only AF with less PG is the Ishkur)...can you see a Holder's bad day in the making? |
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
9
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Posted - 2011.12.02 20:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
One-med ships are OK. They aren't designed for tackling. |
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
6
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Posted - 2011.12.02 20:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
The Coercer is kind of okay. You don't expect Destroyers to tackle stuff, but just to kill frigates quickly from range and the Coercer does that well.
The Retribution does roughly half the dps of the Coercer now. At the same ranges, with much better tracking. There is no point to the Retribution. A second mid is WAY more useful than a fifth low slot. It either needs to do a LOT more dps to be worthwhile flying or just get that second mid slot.
"do a LOT more dps" as in: +1 turret, 10% damage bonus instead of 5%, extra grid and especially cpu (so it can actually fit multiple heatsinks and make good use of its low slots). With those bonuses it would just about match a Coercer in dps, and trade tracking for durability and low signature. |
Sevgei Ertekin
Comin' in Hot
1
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Posted - 2011.12.02 21:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
One medium slot is just dumb. Anyone arguing otherwise, is too. |
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Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.12.02 21:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Even with the changes they made to destroyers this last update I don't think they are going to make destroyers that useful for most situations and it might be worth looking at giving all of the destroyers another slot to make them a little more powerful.
The Retribution, and for that matter all AFs, needs to be looked at closely. For one they have not yet given the AFs their 4th bonus that they should have been given ages ago. But with the Retribution it is worse off than most being stuck with that lack of a second med slot and that should be addressed. A 4H/2M/5L slot layout would be a great improvement and still give the ship a unique slot layout and with a decent 4th bonus could be made flyable.
I use my Retribution to build up Standings when forced to run lv.1s and lv.2s for agents and that is about it, would like to be able to dust it off for pvp at some point. |
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
6
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Posted - 2011.12.02 21:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Norris Packard wrote:The Retribution, and for that matter all AFs, needs to be looked at closely. For one they have not yet given the AFs their 4th bonus that they should have been given ages ago. But with the Retribution it is worse off than most being stuck with that lack of a second med slot and that should be addressed. A 4H/2M/5L slot layout would be a great improvement and still give the ship a unique slot layout and with a decent 4th bonus could be made flyable.
Would you fly a Retri in gangs if it did 1.5x times its current dps? That would be 275 dps at 22km with Scorch in a damage and range oriented fit. |
Kesshisan
68
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Posted - 2011.12.02 22:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
This just in:
Some ships are better for PvP than other ships. . |
Delphineas Fumimasa
The Rising Stars Academy
2
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Posted - 2011.12.02 22:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sevgei Ertekin wrote:One medium slot is just dumb. Anyone arguing otherwise, is too.
Anyone arguing to buff ships with one medium slot while ignoring Cormorants one low is stupid.
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Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance
2
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Posted - 2011.12.02 22:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Norris Packard wrote:The Retribution, and for that matter all AFs, needs to be looked at closely. For one they have not yet given the AFs their 4th bonus that they should have been given ages ago. But with the Retribution it is worse off than most being stuck with that lack of a second med slot and that should be addressed. A 4H/2M/5L slot layout would be a great improvement and still give the ship a unique slot layout and with a decent 4th bonus could be made flyable. Would you fly a Retri in gangs if it did 1.5x times its current dps? That would be 275 dps at 22km with Scorch in a damage and range oriented fit.
I still personally cannot justify it over almost any of the other ship that I can fly even if it did receive that damage boost. I normally do not fly in larger frig gangs where the they would need to have a frig with the heavy firepower and most gangs that I fly in use our frigate hulls for scouting and pointing. Without that ability any other frig hull becomes a better choice. Alternatively I can fly a shield buffer Omen and get more firepower out of it (but lose the good tracking) at that range with similar speeds (still takes a hit on agility) and have that needed point on the Omen.
I also do a great deal of solo work and not having that second mid slot even if they boosted damage makes this ship a non-viable alternative to any other frigate out there.
The one success that I did have in a Retribution solo was kinda on accident when I was attacked by a group of 4 frigates they having the numbers thought that I, a non-pvp ship, would be easy pickings. I was able to kill two of them before they even got into my armor and the other two bailed out (would have been really nice to have had that 2nd med slot right about then...). |
Maritza Cruz
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
3
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Posted - 2011.12.02 22:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Itworksfine
few from yesterday.
just have to know how to fly it.
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Drazzz
Unknown Mass Imperium Honorius
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 00:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Delphineas Fumimasa wrote:Sevgei Ertekin wrote:One medium slot is just dumb. Anyone arguing otherwise, is too. Anyone arguing to buff ships with one medium slot while ignoring Cormorants one low is stupid.
I seem to be missing the issue with the Cormorant? It's a Caldari ship. Caldari use shields. Shields mods go in mid slots. Where is the issue? I agree with the OP. These 2 ships need a second mid slot. I don't care what other ship uses the same layout. If every other ship in the game can use a point and a prop mod it just seems balanced IMO. |
Songbird
39
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Posted - 2011.12.03 01:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sevgei Ertekin wrote:One medium slot is just dumb. Anyone arguing otherwise, is too.
Sevgei said it best. |
Tamiya Sarossa
Hedion University Amarr Empire
111
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Posted - 2011.12.03 02:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
If the coercer had two midslots, it wouldn't be nearly as hilarious when you killed someone with one anymore. Don't nerf humor in my EVE! |
Khrage
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 21:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
stop asking. get a ceptor pilot to fly with you. the coecer and retri are great for pve and work fine in small hull sized fleets as gank. |
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