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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 09:57:10 -
[1] - Quote
If a player has enganged a war target and disengaged (because losing the fight) the station should deny the docking request as long as there are war targets on the same grid. To dock in the station the player has to load another grid (e.g. warp off or go through a gate or got through a wormhole) and come back to the station and dock.
This has no effect to low sec and null sec or w-space, except the target is in war with your corp. This only applies to corp in war with each other.
This will add more risk to wardecing |
Helios Panala
35
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Posted - 2015.02.27 10:56:46 -
[2] - Quote
Why have this suggestion only apply to wars? |
Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:02:59 -
[3] - Quote
Helios Panala wrote:Why have this suggestion only apply to wars?
Because it makes no sense on other things... And besides... Wardec is at time is only useful in high sec. There is no need to wardec in low and null or in Thera. With this small change wardecing in all sec zones does have something useful and might find its use in low or Thera. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1250
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:13:28 -
[4] - Quote
Helios Panala wrote:Why have this suggestion only apply to wars? Where else would you apply it? In cases when I set you unilaterally to -10 and deny your docking?
Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:27:41 -
[5] - Quote
So? Guys what do you think of this idea? Too harsh? Or can be easily exploited? Any pros and cons? |
Helios Panala
35
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:29:27 -
[6] - Quote
Hang on, I've just re-read your post again.
Doesn't the weapons timer cover this? You imply that both sides are fighting, so both sides would be unable to dock for 60 seconds anyway.
Are you suggesting that if I engage a war target outside a station, but start to lose and decide to flee, then I can't get into that station while they remain on grid with it? |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2034
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:07:09 -
[7] - Quote
What about wars makes them so special that they need some mechanic that denies docking to people that have no good reason not to be able to dock? |
Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:12:17 -
[8] - Quote
Helios Panala wrote:Hang on, I've just re-read your post again.
Doesn't the weapons timer cover this? You imply that both sides are fighting, so both sides would be unable to dock for 60 seconds anyway.
Are you suggesting that if I engage a war target outside a station, but start to lose and decide to flee, then I can't get into that station while they remain on grid with it?
If you disengange then you can still dock after the 60sec - thats the current mechnic. My idea is exactly what you said: if you decide to flee and disengage, you can't dock in the station until you exit grid. If he is pointing you, then you have to get rid of that point first of course. If not, then you can freely warp-off and warp again to station at 0km and dock. |
Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:15:20 -
[9] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:What about wars makes them so special that they need some mechanic that denies docking to people that have no good reason not to be able to dock?
Wardecers that plays the docking game. Risk and Reward of wardecs is not equal that way.
And as I stated, this mechanic can also be used in low and thera. Wardec will have a use in those spaces too. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
808
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:38:23 -
[10] - Quote
if you don't want to play station games don't it really is that easy
it may not be a form of combat you like but it is a form of it.
this change wouldn't affect me much but at the very least that's my stance on it
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
11939
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:55:59 -
[11] - Quote
So, then if someone undocks a freighter or a carebear ship during a war, and I login trap them(or just attack them in general), they can't dock?
You might need to rethink the implications of what you're asking for.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
808
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:57:40 -
[12] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So, then if someone undocks a freighter or a carebear ship during a war, and I login trap them(or just attack them in general), they can't dock?
You might need to rethink the implications of what you're asking for.
i think the poorly worded op states if you engage not if you are engaged but that could be me reading it wrong
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Helios Panala
35
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:03:29 -
[13] - Quote
If I'm understanding it right then I don't really see the need.
If I engage someone I get a weapons timer, I'm only going to disengage because the fights not going my way. So I warp away to a planet, wait out my timer and then warp back to 0 at the station and dock.
Your suggestion doesn't change anything about that scenario, far as I can tell. I'm certainly not going to wait around for 60 seconds on-grid with my enemy if I'm losing. Warping away is already the default.
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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:05:16 -
[14] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So, then if someone undocks a freighter or a carebear ship during a war, and I login trap them(or just attack them in general), they can't dock?
You might need to rethink the implications of what you're asking for.
If the freighter does not have guns and engage... Then he can still dock up again... Like the current state. |
Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:08:28 -
[15] - Quote
Helios Panala wrote:If I'm understanding it right then I don't really see the need.
If I engage someone I get a weapons timer, I'm only going to disengage because the fights not going my way. So I warp away to a planet, wait out my timer and then warp back to 0 at the station and dock.
Your suggestion doesn't change anything about that scenario, far as I can tell. I'm certainly not going to wait around for 60 seconds on-grid with my enemy if I'm losing. Warping away is already the default.
Quote:If I engage someone I get a weapons timer, I'm only going to disengage because the fights not going my way. So I warp away to a planet, wait out my timer and then warp back to 0 at the station and dock. You can't just warp-off if you are pointed. What you cant do is repp yourself with an alt or with ancillaries 60sec long until the timer goes off and then dock.
Quote:Your suggestion doesn't change anything about that scenario, far as I can tell. I'm certainly not going to wait around for 60 seconds on-grid with my enemy if I'm losing. Warping away is already the default. That is true... But if you can't manage to get rid of the hero scrambler or arazu... Then you have to stay. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
808
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:09:16 -
[16] - Quote
Helios Panala wrote:If I'm understanding it right then I don't really see the need.
If I engage someone I get a weapons timer, I'm only going to disengage because the fights not going my way. So I warp away to a planet, wait out my timer and then warp back to 0 at the station and dock.
Your suggestion doesn't change anything about that scenario, far as I can tell. I'm certainly not going to wait around for 60 seconds on-grid with my enemy if I'm losing. Warping away is already the default.
no because now i can scram/point you and your stuck
that's the difference
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:13:16 -
[17] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So, then if someone undocks a freighter or a carebear ship during a war, and I login trap them(or just attack them in general), they can't dock?
You might need to rethink the implications of what you're asking for. i think the poorly worded op states if you engage not if you are engaged but that could be me reading it wrong
Yes you are reading it right... You have to engage... And the 60 sec timer starts counting... If you now disengage, you still can't dock until you leave the grid.
Sorry... English is not my primary language. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
11939
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:16:08 -
[18] - Quote
Alexei Stryker wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So, then if someone undocks a freighter or a carebear ship during a war, and I login trap them(or just attack them in general), they can't dock?
You might need to rethink the implications of what you're asking for. i think the poorly worded op states if you engage not if you are engaged but that could be me reading it wrong Yes you are reading it right... You have to engage... And the 60 sec timer starts counting... If you now disengage, you still can't dock until you leave the grid. Sorry... English is not my primary language.
Then what in the hell are you even talking about?
If I undock, see someone with something I can't deal with, then I simply won't engage in the first place and I'd still be able to dock.
This seems like pointless fluff, trying to justify a punitive mechanic where none need exist.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Helios Panala
35
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:30:52 -
[19] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Then what in the hell are you even talking about?
If I undock, see someone with something I can't deal with, then I simply won't engage in the first place and I'd still be able to dock.
This seems like pointless fluff, trying to justify a punitive mechanic where none need exist.
But what if you engage someone and it turns out you can't break their tank, but it will take them at least a minute to break yours and neither of you have any friends nearby? |
Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:32:52 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:Then what in the hell are you even talking about?
If I undock, see someone with something I can't deal with, then I simply won't engage in the first place and I'd still be able to dock.
This seems like pointless fluff, trying to justify a punitive mechanic where none need exist.
Well... Example situation:
You are sitting on the station. A war-target that you think you can handle undocks. You engage. He takles you. 2 of his friends appears on local. It's a bait, you disengage. 10s later his friends appears on grid. 7 sec later they are shooting at you. You are trying to repp, you have to survive the last seconds. Then you dock up. Docking up is like a "get out of jail, free" card. |
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Agent Unknown
Night Theifs DamnedNation
34
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:55:16 -
[21] - Quote
An idea like this would encourage fights to happen off stations ...I think it's a good idea. The more annoying part about station games is the huge undock radius of most stations and the ability to go *inside* the graphic of the station so you're impossible to bump away (*coughjitacough*). |
Clara Barcelo
Deadly Fingertips
2
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:06:23 -
[22] - Quote
Alexei Stryker wrote:
Well... Example situation:
You are sitting on the station. A war-target that you think you can handle undocks. You engage. He takles you. 2 of his friends appears on local. It's a bait, you disengage. 10s later his friends appears on grid. 7 sec later they are shooting at you. You are trying to repp, you have to survive the last seconds. Then you dock up. Docking up is like a "get out of jail, free" card.
You can bump your target out the undocking ring, you can bring more DPS, you can do a lot of things to keep somebody from docking.
Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying. Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock?
This would only lead to people not engaging at all. Why bother right? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
809
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:17:36 -
[23] - Quote
Clara Barcelo wrote:Alexei Stryker wrote:
Well... Example situation:
You are sitting on the station. A war-target that you think you can handle undocks. You engage. He takles you. 2 of his friends appears on local. It's a bait, you disengage. 10s later his friends appears on grid. 7 sec later they are shooting at you. You are trying to repp, you have to survive the last seconds. Then you dock up. Docking up is like a "get out of jail, free" card.
You can bump your target out the undocking ring, you can bring more DPS, you can do a lot of things to keep somebody from docking. Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying. Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock? This would only lead to people not engaging at all. Why bother right?
now now lets not talk about taking risks in deadly i love you guys but damn
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
50
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:19:52 -
[24] - Quote
Clara Barcelo wrote:
Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying.
No... As my original post stated... You can't dock as long as there are War targets in the grid. If you won, then there are none. You still have to wait for the 60sec weapon timer though.
Clara Barcelo wrote: Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock?
Thats the risk... You risked to fight three targets... YOu risked to die... No problem there... And as you said :
Quote:I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying You took the risk knowing that you will die. If you can warp-off by killing the scrambler... Well... |
Agent Unknown
Night Theifs DamnedNation
35
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:52:51 -
[25] - Quote
Clara Barcelo wrote:Alexei Stryker wrote:
Well... Example situation:
You are sitting on the station. A war-target that you think you can handle undocks. You engage. He takles you. 2 of his friends appears on local. It's a bait, you disengage. 10s later his friends appears on grid. 7 sec later they are shooting at you. You are trying to repp, you have to survive the last seconds. Then you dock up. Docking up is like a "get out of jail, free" card.
You can bump your target out the undocking ring, you can bring more DPS, you can do a lot of things to keep somebody from docking. Also what if I fight somebody on the undock and win? I have to warp AWAY from the station and warp back even though I won? That sounds really really annoying. Or what if I kill two or three of my targets on a station by myself, and there are still more? I'm just condemned to die because I took a risk and tried to kill one or two before dying, possible surviving the weapons timer to dock? This would only lead to people not engaging at all. Why bother right?
You can't bump off most stations because of the docking radius. It's literally 20km on some stations. |
Soeren Svenson
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:24:07 -
[26] - Quote
I'm totally with Alex. The docking games in highsec are more than just stupid. With this little change the wars become more interresting. And by the way. It should be very more expensive to declare a war to a corporation. And how about an automatic abortion of a war with no kills? That would be great. |
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
102
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:39:42 -
[27] - Quote
First off... no, thats dumb. And 2nd, no, it wouldn't change anything anyways, most fights on station include getting pointed so you aren't going anywhere anyways.
The game already has a mechanic for this, called the weapons timer. It takes care of this nicely. Though it does have some room to be improved in how much DPS one has to field to kill a faction battleship with half decent resists in that time.
I like the intent and idea to fix station games, but there are other ways to do it. Things like neutral reppers gaining the weapons timer for interferring (so they can't insta dock the moment they come under fire, can't 'actually' risk that shiney nestor now can we?). Or perhaps you aren't allowed to change ships in space (via orca or bowhead) while part of a duel? Another idea is for them to reduce the docking ring on some stations, as it is pretty ridiculously huge on quite a few stations and can be quite irritating to try to bump someone out of range only for them to dock immediately after a couple of good hits.
But really, no, if you are fighting several war targets and you happen to blow them up, all they have to do to keep you from docking is just make sure they have someone on grid. That sounds like a terrible idea for combat. |
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
102
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:44:27 -
[28] - Quote
Soeren Svenson wrote:And by the way. It should be very more expensive to declare a war to a corporation. And how about an automatic abortion of a war with no kills? That would be great. Agreed that hi-sec wars are usually no more than station games with a couple of gate camps, and occasionally scanning down a unsuspecting missioner who isn't very bright.
Wars definintely need fixing. Seeing how there are dozens of groups out there that have literally hundreds of active outgoing wars, the system is broken. A single corp should not be able to constantly cycle through wars at that rate. Maybe if costs scaled to how many decs you currently had outgoing? Kinda like they used to, each one got more expensive. I honestly don't know why the main griefer groups haven't just out and war dec'd all of highsec at the same time, instead of being lazy and only cycling a few hundred at a time each.
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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
53
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Posted - 2015.03.02 10:48:46 -
[29] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:First off... no, thats dumb. And 2nd, no, it wouldn't change anything anyways, most fights on station include getting pointed so you aren't going anywhere anyways. No, you can still disengange and dock after 60s.
Quote:The game already has a mechanic for this, called the weapons timer. It takes care of this nicely. Though it does have some room to be improved in how much DPS one has to field to kill a faction battleship with half decent resists in that time. It's not enough... Don't tell me I have to field 20 people to kill a Ancillary boosting BS under 60s. That is just unbalanced.
Quote:I like the intent and idea to fix station games, but there are other ways to do it. Things like neutral reppers gaining the weapons timer for interferring (so they can't insta dock the moment they come under fire, can't 'actually' risk that shiney nestor now can we?). I like this idea too
Quote:Another idea is for them to reduce the docking ring on some stations, as it is pretty ridiculously huge on quite a few stations and can be quite irritating to try to bump someone out of range only for them to dock immediately after a couple of good hits. This will be solved by my idea. No need to reduce docking ring
Quote:But really, no, if you are fighting several war targets and you happen to blow them up, all they have to do to keep you from docking is just make sure they have someone on grid.
What keeps you from warping away?
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
206
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:24:15 -
[30] - Quote
Op is tired of people running from him in pve and pva boats, and wants it to where he can sit outside of a station they warp to and it automatically starts a weapons timer that won't go away until either party is off grid or the other is killed.
This would be highly abused as if I war dec some corps and got in to system before they get to station, I and my members could have it where every station and gate is unusable to the enemy, guaranteeing the ability to kill some barge or hauler or pve with a tank tackler and backup a warp away
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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