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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
452
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:16:14 -
[1] - Quote
Inslander Wessette wrote:Delegating fighters is not equal to drone assist as delegating fighters is a unique mechanism .
Removing the mechanism would result in ships like thanatos (dedicated fighter bonus) being even more useless than they already are .
A really easy fix would be not allowing fighter assist within said radius of the POS force field or station .
A more complex and suggested fix would be to have a highslot module that acts like beacon on the ship to which the fighters will home or tether on to .
Whilst the beacon is on the fighters can be delegated .
With the module having said cpu / powergrid values we can easily screen out the ships that fighters can be delegated to . ( frigates and shuttles etc)
The problem with the delegation mechanic is it is incredibly buggy and there still are multiple exploits or "clever use of game mechanics" that you can use to give you a significant advantage while assisting your drones, even if you were prevented from doing it on grid with a station or POS.
1. It's possible to get a Thanatos to "hard-to-probe" status by using another "hard-to-probe" Tengu with Remote ECCM. Spurs on the Thanatos and use of X-Instinct. (By "hard-to-probe" I mean the requirement of a max skilled covert ops character with some virtue implants required to probe the Thanatos/Tengu pair). Which makes it close to invulnerable and outside repercussions for the vast majority of gangs unless they specifically know what you're doing and bring Virtue Implants or an incredibly specific fit tengu into your space (risking more than your carriers net-worth), even then, it's possible for you to be aligned out to a POS with refit to WCS in your cargo in the event you get tackled, and RLML fitted on your booster Tengu, in a cynojammed system, making a black ops drop from multiple bombers and back-up recons (all of which you can scout) the only realistic means for your death. If you lose the Tengu+Thanatos and your implant set it still comes into around 2 billion isk ballpark if thanatos is uninsured. Which given what the other people have to field to have a fairly realistic chance of actually catching and killing you (which isn't guranteed) is marginal.
2. Fighters assigned to ships do not agress the ships using them. Unless CCP manages to bug-fix this aspect, this still makes ridiculous things possible such as fighters assigned to double 1600 plate covert ops, nullified subsystem t3s which sit on a gate with anchored bubbles and never aggress and just put fighters on people, jumping out as soon as they lose their 600,000 EHP to almost complete safety.
3. You can take 1) even further by burning a Confessor/Svipul with 10mn MWD in speed mode to the edge of a deadspace pocket in a complex (or a mission in npc 0.0), then setting up there, bringing your carrier 2-3km into the deadspace pocket and requiring even a snaked linked malediction <30minutes to burn to your thanatos if they probe out the plex, which you can easily just type "07 to ur t00nie" into local when it gets below 1000km on dir scanner and warp out.
4. Delegated fighters still fight while a Carrier is in warp so you can easily just assist your fighters to ships, then engage in a long warp to a friendly POS and your fighters will continue to fight while you're in warp and in complete invulnerability landing in the center of a safe POS when you land.
5. offline POS can be used (as they are done currently, right now with skynet/supers) with passwords entered and ready to go online to bypass CCP's current forcefield exclusion zone mechanics.
The problem isn't so much the ships used. As using a 400k EHP abaddon that never agresses with mwd+mmjd+ecm burst+cloak would still be possible with the beacon mechanic, costing 40 million isk after insurance if it dies, with the very likely possibility that it can escape unless the hostiles have multiple pilots (which you know about in your intel channels, and covert ops cloak capable ships if you see fit to allow the grid to allow it on cruisers). I think the risk should be for the Carrier pilot, not for other ships as it's too easy to mitigate risk on the other ships.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
456
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:34:19 -
[2] - Quote
Opner Dresden wrote:So fighter assist is a problem of design... don't post any data, because you don't have any data to support it.
But battleship and Battlecruiser usage is only a stats question... nothing is wrong with the fact that absolutely no one is fielding anything larger than a cruiser hull as a primary doctrine for major combat outside of PL... and even then it's only for <5 jump TFIs and destroyer warp speed Machariels.
Can we get some consistency please? If skynetting is a serious problem and not just people annoyed with home systems having some defensive advantage against roaming gangs... show us the numbers.
Better solution, fighters can be scramed and generate killmails... and bubbles while you're at it.
Carriers just received a massive nerf in jump range, severely limiting one of the major perks of owning one (suitcase). Now the uses for ratting and home defense are being crippled (at least in any sort of busy space).
The advantage that home defense has is the option to reship and counter, more pilots on hand, and the ability to reinforce lost numbers during an engagement, as well as strategic assets like Jump Bridges to cut-off enemy escape routes or bring their own reinforcements in faster, and much better options for a safe retreat like safe stations and friendly structures.
Assigning 4,000 DPS from an invulnerable and intangible target that tracks every single ship in the game perfectly to 2 Stilettos and a Hyena (or t1 fit frigates) is not something which should be in the game.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
456
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:42:06 -
[3] - Quote
Krell Kroenen wrote:So a unique and interesting feature thatGÇÖs been around for numerous years is being removed because of an undesirable side effect that has reared its head more often of late due to changes that came in Phoebe. So instead of correcting the side affect you are just going to axe the whole feature.
ThatGÇÖs like having a blemish on your hand and chopping off the whole hand to get rid of it.
*Golf clap* I guess we should be happy you guys are in game design and are not doctors, why not put forth some effort and prevent the undesirable behavior directly instead of taking easy sloppy way out?
What do you suggest then? Fighter Assist was almost a completely unused 'joke' feature before the fighters got the buffed up stats. The feature is laden with terrible bugs which have been in the game for years, it would probably take considerable work and effort to clean up the numerous bugs in the fighter code (which probably hasn't been touched since 2006 when Carriers were introduced, and older features in eve have a history of being poorly documented) to have them at a state where they are balanced (I.e. Fighters don't have any stats from assigning Carriers), it would probably take a programming/QA team considerable to fix, and then at which point, no-one will use them again like before and a team would have spend considerable development time 'balancing' a feature which is then going to go to back to seeing non-existent use. It's much easier for the Design team to simply remove the feature.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
456
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:00:24 -
[4] - Quote
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Fighters assigned to a ship will not achieve 4k dps. Only 5 fighters can be assigned and endless it is being done by a max dps thanny you only getting like 600 DPS. Also carriers get aggro form their drone aggression. Bump em off station. Bump em of shields. Drive by doomsday him. This stuff happens all the time. Just because you haven't thought about doesn't mean their is no solution.
Or better yet stop expecting you 200 man alliance to be a formidable force to a 3k man alliance with sov. Pick on target you can compete with.
A Thanatos with only 5 Fighters assigns 1.1k DPS to a single ship. With 14 Fighters assuming reasonable skills (i.e. can only run 4 DCUs) a Skynet Thanatos can assign 3000 DPS+ over 3 ships. It is not 600 DPS, 600 DPS would be from a completely unfitted Thanatos. This is from an entirely T2 Fit Thanatos.
A Nyx can assign over 6000 DPS with the same configuration.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
456
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:04:25 -
[5] - Quote
Charadrass wrote:xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX wrote:Charadrass wrote:guys. you can assist 5 fighters. not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.
thats a 2k dps per ship. a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too. gonna nerf vindicators right? at risk of stating the obvious A decent fit Vindicator goes around 1km/s, and costs 700m to lose with rigs/t2 fitting/faction web. It has problems applying damage past 20km. It is vulnerable to tracking disruption/energy warfare, it can be damped, jammed, it can be scrammed/webbed (albiet to the extreme risk of the ship doing that if the Vindicator is not controlled), it can be pointed and killed outside it's web range quite easily by most cruisers in the game if it's unsupported. 2 Stilettos with assisted Einherjis cost 60m to lose (The Einherjis cost 300m but they are incredibly unlikely to die because even scrammed einherjis will instantly disappear if they Stilletto relegates control of them back to the carrier) Einherjis go 6km/s, and the Stilettos do 5km/s, The Einherjis will track frigates perfectly without issue, and can track every single frigate in the game, even linked, unless they have HG snakes. If you lose the 2 Stilettos which have a much more effective weapon system you lose 60m If you lose your vindicator after insurance it costs 500m+ Guess which one is balanced ah. and the assisted Einherjis spawn just in space and wait to get assisted right? you forgot in your calculation the carrier OR supercarrier. you just have to scan him down. bump him away from the pos and kill it. mister iamlookingforaneasykillandgothumiliated...
If you have no idea how skynet works then you probably shouldn't post here. The Carrier is 40m outside a friendly POS, with a heated MWD and agility rigs and can get back into a friendly POS in under 1 second. The Einherjis are assisted to the interceptors from this position. For all intents and purposes it is completely invulnerable. A t2 Fit Thanatos costs around 2b including fighters, but it is an almost invulernable asset. The tangible assets you will lose are the Stilettos in this example on the grid, and probably rarely the fighters if the Stilettos aren't paying attention, and the Vindicator. The assisting Carrier in a proper configuration is at almost no risk what so ever.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:09:30 -
[6] - Quote
Charadrass wrote:suddenly i feel like seeing the neighbours Boy sitting in the sandbox calling mommy and blaming the 5 year older kid for destroying his plan to world dominance.
just like, if i can't kill it quick enough, iam gonna run to mommccp and make them disappear through another way.
grow balls. seriously.
You could just bring your Carrier on-grid and get the same results, but that would require a tangible level of risk. So please take your Ad-Hominems elsewhere.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:13:09 -
[7] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Now expalin to us all how well that works when the fighters don't get bonuses from the carrier/mods/carrier pilot?
Which is the entire point. CCP made some not so smart buffs to fighters, that went haywire and the 'fix' is to remove the mechanic that was around before the problem but not the actual things that caused the problem?
That doesn't make any damn sense.
CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie are part of the game design team and are not programmers. The Fighter Assist code has likely not been touched in over 10 years when it was put out in the Red Moon Rising expansion in 2006. There are several bugs in the fighter assist code and since CCP has a problem with applying/deapplying skills/bonuses from other grids in the past (See OGB) and the Brain-In-A-Box project, it would probably take incredible amount of time from the development team to get these bugs fixed. At which point, fighter assist will go back to being a marginalized and rarely used mechanic, of which CCP would have now spent hundreds of development hours on.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:15:56 -
[8] - Quote
Ambassador Spock wrote:Why not add a fighter-warping 'switch', like with the new corp friendly fire? A simple option in the drone menu on whether you want to allow your fighters to warp or not.
You can already do that by just unticking the "fight and follow" (I forgot how it actually appears) button.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:21:04 -
[9] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: None of those bug matter is fighters can't hit anything smaller than a Dread. And that's the whole point.
Removing fighter delegation because drone mods/bonuses being applied to fighters that can then be delegated is exactly like saying "you robbed a bank and used a car for the get away, I'm going to let you keep the money and go free and arrest the guy who sold you the car!".-Signed, CCP Police Department.
Ignoring the bugs, I am suggesting to you that making it so that fighters lose their bonuses off grid is probably going to take a huge amount of development time from CCP for lackluster returns. The usage of assisted fighters before the changes was close to non-existent. Are there actually any tangible uses for assisted fighters if they do not retain the current stats?
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:32:21 -
[10] - Quote
Charadrass wrote:
you are blaming the realworld drone attacks too right? cause sending the soldier hiself on to enemy Terrain is more fair, instead of sending an unmanned drone?
the carrier is sitting in a System with a pos. he can be scanned out. even without scanning there are only pos possible at moons, so warping to all moons cloaked shouldnt be a Problem. afterwards. get a bumper ship. a Little fleet, and enjoy the carrier kill.
but that is tooooo much work. lets fill out a Petition to remove the reason for the carrier to be online outside of a pos. thats much easier , and sooooo much fun... wait. it is not....
An attentive carrier pilot is 40m from a POS forcefield, it takes less than <1s for it to make it into the POS. Due to the position of the force field and where the Carrier pilot is, it's very difficult to get a good angle for bumping. Additionally, a Carrier has a significant amount of mass and even a Cloaky 100mn Proteus (which will die in about 20 seconds to POS guns and is absolutely useless to your fleet) will find it difficult to achieve a significant bump, you need to get up to speed to get a worthwhile bump which you cannot do while cloaked, the chance of bumping a Carrier in this manner is incredibly unlikely, I would advise you put this into practice yourself and post the results here.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:46:56 -
[11] - Quote
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:If fighter-assist capability is removed, carriers will be used less for pvp than they are as of now. There is no reason to warp a carrier into that kind of fight, where you today can assist fighters. Instead people will find other ships/means to buff their fleet DPS, just not by carriers.
So, by all means remove the fighter assist capability from carriers, but replace it with something that makes it interesting for people to warp their carriers on-grid! So we get more carriers to kill!
The problem with the current fighter assist mechanic is that people were not warping their carriers on grid at all, but instead were 40m from a POS forcefield. Using Throw-Away ships as anchors for the drones. This change will result in more PvP as Carriers will have to come onto grid to achieve the same effect as before (Resulting in more content, escalations and carrier kills). If people use other means than interceptors with Einherjis assigned to them then it will be a welcome change.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:48:24 -
[12] - Quote
Jamy Lannister wrote:Whoever wants this change, obviously doesnt know how to add drones to overview and use their brain.
Use your brain and kill the 6km/s battlecruiser EHP Einherjis with 100m sig that 2 shots every kiting cruiser in the game? that has close to the same damage mitigation as most Assault Frigates in the game? yeah...
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
457
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:50:05 -
[13] - Quote
kelvin oriley wrote:What were the csm reactions to this
The majority of the CSM members were in complete support of this change. You can read the January minutes.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
464
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Posted - 2015.03.03 08:10:18 -
[14] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:The main issue is that with the proposed changes a dps carrier with fighters on grid is only usefull as a cyno fitted carrier that is in a blue donut alliance. Other people won't put a dps carrier on grid, because it will just get hotdropped. If you remove cynos, hey i might even consider using my carrier. But like this? Hell no. I guess at least with the training i have a glorified osprey in hangar.
It's almost as if 3.2k DPS with Taranis Tracking needs to be balanced in some manner...
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
464
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:35:10 -
[15] - Quote
Kazaheid Zaknafein wrote:Like it has been said before, Removing the ability to assist drones near a pos or station would fix the problem of skynet.
Carriers have never been a line of sight weapons platform, historically and for the most part in eve. The advantage a carrier provides is the ability to project damage while staying out of harms way. And the carrier's inherent weakness is its vulnerability without its fighters to protect itself.
And for those who complain that there is no counter to the off grid carrier, watch how quickly they dock or run to pos when you launch probes in system. And if that doesn't work, just kill the ship serving as a drone anchor; no more fighter dps then.
There is still many exploits you can do without being next to a POS force field.
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