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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1003
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 23:24:44 -
[1] - Quote
First of all there is this:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Around reds no amount of tank is going to help if you get scrammed. Only if you are solo. I think the scaling on the ships are all wrong. I would like to see : Tank go up: Procurer --> Covetor Skiff ---> Hulk Ore Hold go down: Procurer (at retriever levels) --> Covetor Skiff (at Mackinaw levels) --> Hulk Ore Hold go up: Barge --> Exhumer Align time go down: Procurer --> Covetor Skiff ---> Hulk Barge --> Exhumer Acceleration to warp go down: Procurer --> Covetor Skiff ---> Hulk Barge --> Exhumer Yield go up: Procurer --> Covetor Skiff ---> Hulk Barge --> Exhumer This would make Procurers cheap, nimble ships that are reasonable (mostly as they are now) While Hulks would have a decent yield to be worth the risk, large tanks but slow, so they would need support. Anyone solo mining in one would be a fool. .... and yes, this if you haven't seen it. Was discussing this with, Jinrai Tremaine
Talking about how Procurers and Skiffs would be more nimble and allow for ninja mining in low sec, they would also be able to fight rats and so they could go in solo, start building up something.
My objective is to see Low Sec as a next step from High Sec (before FW guys moan, there could be war frontiers that cater to you guys) Vision being people leaving High Sec, making capitals and ships in low sec and invading Null Sec, I suspect this is the original design plan of CCP.
Their idea was that when a belt is cleared anywhere, there is an escalation to a mining belt in Low Sec that has some ore not normally found there.
I feel that when you clear a belt in a Low Sec system it will spawn a richer site (something to start building capitals with) that must be scanned in the same system, this adds some protection and an incentive. So, you can bring out the shiny exhumers and if your guys are sharp they can kill the scanning ships on the gates.
Example of ore found there would be Spodumain for Megacyte but not Bistot or Arkonor. Maybe more Vitric and Glazed Hedgergite.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1003
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:38:45 -
[2] - Quote
Veldspar - Max skills Hulk - 31.45 m3/s with drones - 26.30 m3/s without (16.5%) Skiff - 27.44 m3/s with drones - 22.28 m3/s without (19%) Procurer - 23.27 m3/s with drones - 16.56 m3/s without (29%)
Veldspar - Max skills Mackinaw - 21.90m3/s with drones - 16.75 m3/s without (23%) Retriever - 22.54 m3/s with drones - 17.39 m3/s without (23%) Covetor - 27.51 m3/s with drones - 22.35 m3/s without (19%)
Tanks (DCU, rigs and full midslots for tank) Mackinaw 25.3K eHP Covetor 12.5K eHP Retriever 16.7K eHP Hulk 22.3K eHP with 203 rep per second. Skiff 72.7K eHP with 240 RPS Proc 67.5K eHP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
818
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:55:01 -
[3] - Quote
not instantly against this but need time to think some things over will be back
i think the best thing for getting people to mine more LS(and wh) would be to put mining anoms back to sigs myself
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23528
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Posted - 2015.03.01 00:35:28 -
[4] - Quote
Seems like an incomplete analysis unless Ore Hold size is factored in..
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1003
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:37:13 -
[5] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Seems like an incomplete analysis unless Ore Hold size is factored in... I generally ignore that as I actively can mine and haul away. However, hang onto your britches.
Ugh, also have to factor in warp speeds and average turn around times. Want to go warp to a bunch of belts in many different systems and give me a list of distances to nearest stations in different types of space?
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Jinrai Tremaine
Meanwhile Elsewhere...
80
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Posted - 2015.03.01 01:05:14 -
[6] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Was discussing this with, Jinrai TremaineTalking about how Procurers and Skiffs would be more nimble and allow for ninja mining in low sec, they would also be able to fight rats and so they could go in solo, start building up something. My objective is to see Low Sec as a next step from High Sec (before FW guys moan, there could be war frontiers that cater to you guys) Vision being people leaving High Sec, making capitals and ships in low sec and invading Null Sec, I suspect this is the original design plan of CCP. Their idea was that when a belt is cleared anywhere, there is an escalation to a mining belt in Low Sec that has some ore not normally found there. I feel that when you clear a belt in a Low Sec system it will spawn a richer site (something to start building capitals with) that must be scanned in the same system, this adds some protection and an incentive. So, you can bring out the shiny exhumers and if your guys are sharp they can kill the scanning ships on the gates. Example of ore found there would be Spodumain for Megacyte but not Bistot or Arkonor. Maybe more Vitric and Glazed Hedgergite.
I should clarify that personally I dislike the idea of lowsec being designed as a stepping stone in a linear progression from High > Null, because IMO building an area purely as a temporary transitional space rather than an independently interesting set of game mechanics is a waste of a corner of the sandbox. Plus I don't really see the need to structure lowsec around producing capitals entirely in-house; seems like it undermines the richness of the New Eden economy which enables player specialization (by letting them buy the 99% of things they're not specialized in producing).
With that said, lowsec mining is definitely in a sorry state, and a lot of that is due to the simple fact that the mechanics of mining don't fit with the largely shoot-first-ask-questions-later playstyle that is the norm in lowsec. Specifically, mining involves long periods of sitting still in what is effectively a public location - either an asteroid belt that's always visible on the in-space menu or an ore anom that's always visible on the probe scanner. The combination of that high visibility and lack of movement makes you a very easy target, while any attempt to change those conditions (by moving around frequently, for example) quickly undermines your profit.
It's tempting to say "just ramp up the ISK/time for lowsec mining" so that players either don't need to sit still mining for as long, or at least have a very easy time of absorbing a few ship losses while sitting still. The problem with this plan is that lowsec mining does not exist in a vacuum (well, technically it does because space, but it's not in a metaphorical vacuum) - its ISK payout comes from mineral demand, the same thing that drives value for mining everywhere else in EVE and sets the prices for the vast majority of ingame items. Drastically increasing mineral supply to drastically increase lowsec mining payout has a lot of knock-on consequences for overall economic stability in general, and non-lowsec mining in particular, but most relevantly it threatens to devalue itself by flooding the market with more ore; it wouldn't matter if lowsec mining paid 10x more than any other mining, if all other mining was worth basically nothing due to the lowsec mineral supply.
On the other hand, by creating Mining Escalations you remove the "public location" from the mining mechanics; escalation sites do not show up on the system signatures index, nor can they be located with scan probes. You'd only need to worry about combat probes finding your ship(s) specifically. Players are still static, but much less visibly so and they have an easy time detecting threats because they just need to DScan regularly enough to spot combat probes. No combat probes, you're safe in your site. On top of that, I think that effectively inviting non-lowsec players to take a brief trip into lowsec, with the structured goal of "go in, clear out the anomaly and get out again" is going to be a lot more effective at getting players to dip their toes outside of hisec compared to the far more vague "go to lowsec and mine better ores".
After some consideration, the Escalations wouldn't work if they only came from clearing out a belt, because the kind of players you want them to attract are the ones who aren't strip-mining entire belts, they're the ones cherrypicking the most valuable ores. Instead, tie the escalations to completely breaking up an asteroid; give each such exhausted asteroid a tiiiiiny chance to spawn an escalation (the flavour text would be something about your ships computer analysing where the asteroid must have originated from, and extrapolating the location of a far more valuable deposit) . The escalation chance could be so low as to usually require a player to clear out 2-5 belts to get an escalation, but of course some will get them far more quickly than that. Also, it would probably be somewhat obnoxious to have nullsec belts escalate to lowsec, just because there's usually some distance between the two, not to mention that nullsec already gets most of the best ores. The same applies to w-space, for what should be obvious reasons. Lowsec belts should escalate, though, if only to avoid the situation where players avoid mining in lowsec belts becaue they don't give ore escalations which are lowsec mining themselves. Likewise, while non-lowsec space should generate the escalations, they should only take place in lowsec.
As for the contents of the Escalation sites, I personally wouldn't have a problem with them containing non-lowsec ore, up to and including mercoxit ore, and in +10% versions not normally found in lowsec. They could even be in unique versions, with even higher yield, in fact. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1003
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 02:27:42 -
[7] - Quote
Ore holds with rates added. Will have to come back to this thread at a later point with warp and turn around times. My bet is on can mining rather than constantly docking.
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Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
73
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 04:42:37 -
[8] - Quote
I care not about the ore holds of mining ships. Moving ore to the station is what haulers are for. I you mine solo with one account then it's a big deal. But I (and most professional miners) have two accounts, one for the ships with the lasers and one for the ship with the cargo hold. Barges and exhumers are merely detached subsystems.
I've done some experimenting with lowsec ninja mining. The problems I encountered had more to do with the support ships than with the actual mining ships, since no one in their right mind would use an lone Orca for ore hauling in lowsec. This task is left to indys and blockade runners (really, only blockade runners). While these ships have fairly large cargo holds compared to others, they are not nearly large enough for the huge volumes of ore that you have to bring in to make an expedition worthwhile.
There is a conspicuous absence of T1 and T2 industrials from ORE that follow the same pattern as the ships from the four empires (the Noctus isn't really a hauler). What I'd like is for ORE to come out with an industrial with a giant ore hold (30,000m3) and a small (few hundred m3) regular hold. All other characteristics would fit the general pattern of the other, conventional industrials. Then it would follow that they'd also produce a BR version. That BR version would be fantastic for lowsec mining. The holds in both T1 and T2 versions should be directly accessible to fleet/corp members similar to the fleet hangar in the Orca.
EDIT: Typos |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23530
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Posted - 2015.03.01 04:47:49 -
[9] - Quote
I think adding warp times into the analysis would be a bit overkill..
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23530
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Posted - 2015.03.01 04:59:08 -
[10] - Quote
I apologize for the double post. My edit button experience is a bit dodgy at the moment.
Jen wrote:Retriever has 96% yield and 24.7% of the tank compared to a Procurer ... but it has two lasers! It must be better, right? Retty is a better option for a single-account miner due to the Ore Hold (>2x depending on Mining Barge skill level). It is a great option to take fully untanked to hoover an ice belt.
The market price isn't something CCP controls, but I suppose something could be done on the manufacturing materials requirement side to reduce the 6M premium for the Retty.
Quote:Covetor has 0.2% more yield and 17% of the tank that a Skiff has so, all you are buying between the two is a tank and a drone bay ... which yeah, can be a good thing .... but look at the cost difference? The yield of boost-friend mining vessels should always be quoted with boosts. The Covetor is an excellent option if you have in-belt security in blue space. It is worthless if you're mining alone in it in hisec.
I think the cost/benefit differences for these two vessels are justified.
My feedback would be to be more clear in terms of what you are suggesting as changes.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
283
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Posted - 2015.03.01 07:16:41 -
[11] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Around reds no amount of tank is going to help if you get scrammed.
This is the core.
Low sec mining will take from either the HS mining pool or the Null Sec mining pool. Null miners have no motive to move to low sec, it's backward to do so. HS miners tend to be solo, and or multi box and because of mineral alchemy they are really better serving the industrial base by staying in high sec.
Unless CCP introduce some new manufacturing tree that use nothing but Zydrine and Megacyte and in large quantities, they are over mined as it is. Nocxium sources in Low maybe? It won't require adjustments to the ships though, it will require a new ore with Nocxium and no zydrine. A super Pyroxeres like Ore not found in HS. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
583
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Posted - 2015.03.01 08:39:03 -
[12] - Quote
Miners in their infinite wisdom..
Worst pvp'ers of them all and here I thought lowsec pirates are not nice -.-
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
867
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Posted - 2015.03.01 09:16:33 -
[13] - Quote
Just put a POS up in wh space and mine until you can't mine no more. The expected thrill of dual statics is wearing off and they folks are leaving them empty again. The NPC data/relic sites are losing thier luster (too little isk for the amount of times you get dunked by dscan immune recons).
Anyway - for various reasons, wh space is clearing out. Come mine there. Best ore and minimal risk. No really. Sure you'll lose some ships and pods, but overall you'll come out way ahead.
Send me a mail and we'll talk about it.
I'd say overall the mining ships are pretty balanced atm. The last set of changes were one of the better changes to the game in some time.
PS if you can also harvest gas (makes silly phone signal w/ hand) call me! |
Jinrai Tremaine
Meanwhile Elsewhere...
80
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Posted - 2015.03.01 11:44:57 -
[14] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Veldspar - Max skills Hulk - 31.45 m3/s with drones - 26.30 m3/s without (16.5%) Skiff - 27.44 m3/s with drones - 22.28 m3/s without (19%) Procurer - 23.27 m3/s with drones - 16.56 m3/s without (29%) Veldspar - Max skills Mackinaw - 21.90m3/s with drones - 16.75 m3/s without (23%) Retriever - 22.54 m3/s with drones - 17.39 m3/s without (23%) Covetor - 27.51 m3/s with drones - 22.35 m3/s without (19%) Tanks (DCU, rigs and full midslots for tank) Mackinaw 25.3K eHP Covetor 12.5K eHP Retriever 16.7K eHP Hulk 22.3K eHP with 203 rep per second. Skiff 72.7K eHP with 240 RPS Proc 67.5K eHP Ore hold per ship vs Miasmos (63K x2) 126K Procurer - 12K m/3 - 515s - 8m 40 sec & 126K = 5414 - 90m 20 sec Retriever - 22K m/3 - 976 - 16m 20 sec & 126K = 5590 - 93m 9 sec Covetor - 7K m/3 - 254 - 4m 15 sec & 126K = 4580 - 76m 20 sec Skiff - 15K m/3 - 546 - 9m 6 sec & 126K = 4591 - 76m 30 sec Mack - 28K m/3 - 1278 - 21m 20 sec & 126K = 5753 - 95m 54 sec Hulk - 8,5K m/3 - 270 - 4m 30 sec & 126K = 4006 - 66m 45 sec So, let's run a few comparisons here: Retriever has 96% yield and 24.7% of the tank compared to a Procurer ... but it has two lasers! It must be better, right? Covetor has 0.2% more yield and 17% of the tank that a Skiff has so, all you are buying between the two is a tank and a drone bay ... which yeah, can be a good thing .... but look at the cost difference? Covetor is 13.6% of the cost, should we be cultivating a mentality of throw away ships where alts die and no cares were given? Anyway, will get back to this thread when I have had more sleep. The essential things to a miner are - Tank = time to live until help arrives - Tank = ability to deal with rats - Tank = time for other miners to help apply drones - Yield = ISK - ISK = ability to throw away ships or go do something fun Currently, yield vs tank but yield differences aren't much vs tank differences. I would rather have " dock or die" vs " stand and fight" playstyles with yield vs nimbleness to warp.
I think you might want to re-check your yield numbers there, because those don't look right. Retriever and Procurer (and Mack and Skiff) should have equal unfitted m3/time stats; given 1x DCU and the rest of the lows with MLUs the Retriever should actually slightly out-mine a Procurer, due to an extra lowslot for another MLU, while the Mack and Skiff should be equal with 3 lowslots each.
In ore/minute, without including drones, using 1x DCU and the other lowslots as MLU IIs I get the following (All level 5 skills, Modulated Strip Miner II, T2 Veldspar crystal):
Mining Barges: Procurer - 993 m3/min Retriever - 1,083 m3/min Covetor - 1,341 m3/min
Exhumers: Skiff - 1,203 m3/min Mackinaw - 1,203 m3/min Hulk - 1,578 m3/min |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1005
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Posted - 2015.03.01 19:20:29 -
[15] - Quote
Fitte ships tank + yield.
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Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
283
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 20:33:38 -
[16] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Just put a POS up in wh space and mine until you can't mine no more. The expected thrill of dual statics is wearing off and they folks are leaving them empty again. The NPC data/relic sites are losing thier luster (too little isk for the amount of times you get dunked by dscan immune recons).
Anyway - for various reasons, wh space is clearing out. Come mine there. Best ore and minimal risk. No really. Sure you'll lose some ships and pods, but overall you'll come out way ahead.
Send me a mail and we'll talk about it.
I'd say overall the mining ships are pretty balanced atm. The last set of changes were one of the better changes to the game in some time.
PS if you can also harvest gas (makes silly phone signal w/ hand) call me!
Agreed in terms of ship role right now. I still think Covetor/ Hulk need a role bonus because none is a blatant gimp but it really doesn't matter to me. Skiff/ Mackinaw in High Sec works. Skiff for Scordite, it holds 100K and takes 12.5 minutes to fill, Mackinaw holds 100K Plag, takes around half an hr to fill. I don't over analyze the math or TMI my own brain, I just roll with what looks sensible. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1006
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Posted - 2015.03.01 22:39:01 -
[17] - Quote
This is currently how we are using mining ships in Null Sec.
Primarily - Procurers and Skiffs
Macks, Retrievers and Covetors haven't got the memo, interceptors and things from worm holes can warp too fast, need something to live a little bit for help to arrive. (Can everyone be serious - no combat people are going to sit and asteroid camp miners - so ships need tank or the shield bubble idea to buy time for help to get there.)
Procurers when we have a lot of red activity and serious hot droppers, we can kill some but an hour or two and you have paid for your ship.
Hulks if everything is very blue, we have PVPers ratting for extra ISK and it is a mining operation.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
93
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 04:34:26 -
[18] - Quote
Change the mining mechanics first.
Don't change any ship stats, mining rates, or refine yields until mining isn't so
mind
numbingly
boring.
I've had great fun working out the most efficient mining setup. I know what to mine, in what ship, and how much that will earn. But I honestly can't be bothered undocking a barge when everything else in this game is more interesting to do. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1008
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Posted - 2015.03.02 05:07:38 -
[19] - Quote
I like mining for that reason. Can deal with some "paper work" in game, discuss plans, socialise with the alliance / corp, get some other things done on the other machine, check these forums, dot down some ideas. All while earning some ISK and helping to build up some things.
It can be a very social activity. I do pity the miners that are in one man corps with no friends and only one screen. I know that I wouldn't mine if some silly mini-game was added.
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Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
74
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 05:47:37 -
[20] - Quote
With all this talk of ship yields and balance we've missed the big elephant in the room: The ores below highsec don't offer enough increased reward for their increased risk.
Look at the ore values. The average value of the six highsec ores is about 165k ISK per thousand m3. The best ore found anywhere in the game is currently Hedbergite and worth about 202k ISK per thousand m3. That's only 22% more. (There is more +5% and +10% stuff in lower sec status space; but that really doesn't contribute much.) But people aren't going to mine only the creme de la creme. These H-ores yield most of their value in the form of higher value minerals (Nox, Zyd, and Mega). These are not in short supply. If you talk to cap-ship builders they'll tell you that they need more Pyerite; whose main source is found everywhere. The real value of mining in null or w-space is only marginally better than mining in highsec. The reasons for doing so have more to do with logistics than anything else.
If you want to get more miners into low and null than you have to look at the reward side of the equation. They either need to buff the amount of low-end minerals gleaned from low/null sec ores (without decreasing the high-end mineral yields), or make different version of the same ore types with radically improved yields which are found in more remote space. I'm more partial to the second option. In another thread this was posted,
Lienzo wrote:We all know that high-end ores just aren't worth that much generally. You could charge 10x the price on megacyte, and it would only increase the cost of a typical t1 hull by 2%. The real value here isn't scarcity, but human labor on extraction and movement. Therefore, I propose that we inflate the 5% and 10% variants to a more considerable density increase. I would suggest 50% and 100% respectively. Low density ABCs could be spawned in empire, while higher density ores would cluster in less secure space. The rest of his "Infinite belt" idea was crap; but I think this part was excellent. Make 95% of the scordite found in highsec be of the plain variety, most in lowsec be of the +50% variety, and most in null and w-space the +100% variety. That would make giving up yield-fitted Hulks and Orca bonus worth it. The base-yields would have to be nerfed to compensate.
I would also be tempted by ultra rare, ultra high-value asteroids. The Prospect needs a reason to exist. It was clearly designed to go out into dangerous space to hunt down small-volume, high-value stuff. The chronicle article Nocxium offers inspiration for what this could be: Pure Mineral Asteroids. Imagine a asteroid named "Pure Tritanium" from which your Miner IIs extracted their usually volume of material in the form of the refined mineral. Versions would exist all of the seven basic minerals. Obviously they would be extremely rare, with exponentially increasing rarity for the high value minerals. Perhaps 1-in-1000 asteriods below highsec would be pure tritanium, 1-in-2000 pyerite, 1-in-4000 mexallon, and so on. I'm getting horny just thinking about it. Such extremely rare and valuable things should normally be invisible to overview and only detectable with a survey scanner (even misreport it to the client so that players can't use a special program to be alerted when a specific graphics mesh is loaded). Mining frigates and exploration ships searching the belts for these gems would have to decloak long enough to do a scan. This concept would make covert mining expeditions very, very appealing. (This is a more refined version of an idea I posted while on a rambling tangent in a custom paint-job thread.) |
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
93
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Posted - 2015.03.02 09:32:45 -
[21] - Quote
Colette Kassia wrote:With all this talk of ship yields and balance we've missed the big elephant in the room: The ores below highsec don't offer enough increased reward for their increased risk. Look at the ore values. The average value of the six highsec ores is about 165k ISK per thousand m3. The best ore found anywhere in the game is currently Hedbergite and worth about 202k ISK per thousand m3. That's only 22% more. (There is more +5% and +10% stuff in lower sec status space; but that really doesn't contribute much.) But people aren't going to mine only the creme de la creme. These H-ores yield most of their value in the form of higher value minerals (Nox, Zyd, and Mega). These are not in short supply. If you talk to cap-ship builders they'll tell you that they need more Pyerite; whose main source is found everywhere. The real value of mining in null or w-space is only marginally better than mining in highsec. The reasons for doing so have more to do with logistics than anything else. If you want to get more miners into low and null than you have to look at the reward side of the equation. I agree with the above.
Here's a bit of a brain fart, based on what many people on the forum have been saying about minerals. I'm not a null miner, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm an EFT warrior, armed with very shiny auto-updating spreadsheets.
The whole idea of having low-volume (as a percentage of a ship hull), high-price minerals in a single area of space doesn't work.
Currently, this is how mining goes...
- Mine low-end ores in highsec to get low-end minerals.
- Mine high-end ores in null to get high-end minerals.
Highsec miners mine in *safety, supplying loads and loads of low-end ore to the economy. Null miners mine in safety because of the *blue donut, supplying loads and loads of high-end ore to the economy.
But because of the current state of the game, mining in null produces excess high-end minerals. The player economy then pushes those prices down. Which reduces the reward, while maintaining constant risk.
Result: Mining outside highsec is crap.
Solution: Decouple high-end ores from high-end mineral price.
Instead of mining low-end ores in highsec and high-end ores in null, miners need to mine all varieties of ore in-situ. Couple high-end ores to mineral volume. High-end ores should give you more minerals, not better ones.
Solution:
- Remove all +5% and all +10% ores. Period. Everywhere.
- Put +25% ores in lowsec.
- Put +50% ores in null and w-space.
* loljokes, this doesn't exist.
Anyway, sitting in space watching mining lasers cycle is boring and needs to die. Make mining more active. Every change CCP has made has always made someone post angrily on the forums. They invariably bend over and take the changes as they come. They always have, and always will. It's all right to screw a tiny minority if it makes the game better for everyone else.
To paraphrase Mittens, CCP is now in the business of slaughtering sacred cows for the good of the game. I think mining is one of them.
Adapt or can-I-have-your-stuff. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1016
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Posted - 2015.03.02 16:07:45 -
[22] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:- Mine
high-end all ore types in null to get high-end minerals.
Null miners mine in safety because of the *blue donut, supplying loads and loads of high-end ore to the economy. It is pointless hauling in minerals from high-sec, just mine complete asteroid sites at a time.
Also, note that a lot of this thread is aiming at granting a boon to low sec miners to stimulate more growth there.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
93
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 20:25:55 -
[23] - Quote
Yeah, you're right. Lowsec mining is probably the riskiest of the lot. It's harder to control access to a system (even though Inties wouldn't care anyway).
Without reducing risk, you have to increase reward. After all, people in lowsec take risks every time they undock. Systems in the 0.1 - 0.3 range have the most profitable ores, but the fewest miners.
I'll argue against changing ship yields because that won't increase reward. Changing ship stats affects high- and null-sec equally, so any benefit to lowsec mining is countered by benefits to other areas of space at the same time.
Give us a lowsec-only mining laser, or change the distribution of rocks in space. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
6113
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Posted - 2015.03.02 21:06:46 -
[24] - Quote
Talking about mining?
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1017
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Posted - 2015.03.02 22:27:22 -
[25] - Quote
I agree with the first response ... Llyona wrote:... Everything else you mentioned is a ridiculous complication of a system ... ... and do not support that thread.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1066
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Posted - 2015.03.07 23:55:23 -
[26] - Quote
Weird idea: What if Hulks could use warfare links? Squads lead by beefier Hulks, bit like mining barges command ship.
CSM Ten movement for change.
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Madd Adda
31
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Posted - 2015.03.08 00:01:09 -
[27] - Quote
Exhumers should be better in almost every aspect over barges, no exceptions. Thought that was the point of T2
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Weird idea: What if Hulks could use warfare links? Squads lead by beefier Hulks, bit like mining barges command ship.
I don't use links, but don't they take high slots? if so you're shooting yourself in the foot by not using the most amount of mining modules that can be used on hulk/covetor.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1066
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Posted - 2015.03.08 00:04:10 -
[28] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:I don't use links, but don't they take high slots? if so you're shooting yourself in the foot by not using the most amount of mining modules that can be used on hulk/covetor. Yes, a cost to you for the gain of the rest of your squad or wing depending on how you set your fleet up.
CSM Ten movement for change.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
93
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Posted - 2015.03.08 00:23:33 -
[29] - Quote
That's the point of an Orca, or a BC with mining links.
Mathematically, at some fleet size it's better for the booster to sacrifice some mining yield to increase the yield of others. Below that size it's better to do the opposite.
Smart miners are always going to choose the optimum value for their fleet size. Everyone will compute what point it's best to swap and do that mindlessly in future. It adds five minutes of useful content to the miner, but influences the economy forever onwards.
I really don't think that's a good change. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1067
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 03:19:20 -
[30] - Quote
I was thinking more in terms of a Rorqual in the belt (idea linked in OP on how that would happen) as wing command, boosting industry while Hulks could give a single combat boost to squads, while still doing some mining.
Ultimately, the ideal situation is a shield combat booster in fleet command, Rorqual in wing, other boosts in PVP/ratting wing.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
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