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Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.03.02 12:11:02 -
[1] - Quote
So I was thinking about a possible counter to the insane number of carriers/supers and how their spider tanks are nearly unbreakable while pushing out fleet crushing DPs.
We have aoe ecm, why not aoe damps as well? Either through a ship modual like heavy interdictors OR a mobile dampener that can be dropped much like an MTU that then starts damping the targeting range and scan res of everything within 20km? If it was something that was dropped like an MTU make it so the Sig on it is very small on it so it takes forever to lock it in a cap but a support fleet could still take out pretty quick so you'd have to bring a lot of them to sustain the dampening.
I dunno, just something that I think we could discuss. |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
244
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Posted - 2015.03.02 13:29:06 -
[2] - Quote
And whats to stop them from simply buffertanking (and refitting to stack more resistances for the incoming damage types) until they get locks on MWDing super with the sig radius of a small sun?
I mean that stops the spider sure, but it doesnt stop the buffer... And besides just remote ECM bursting them aught to be more usefull then something that damps them....
And then ofcourse theres the whole "law of unintended concequences" thing where you cannot ensure its just caps getting annoyed by them, dropping say 20 of them on a stack of ishtars or something should be a pretty decent way to break balance... |
Anthar Thebess
940
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Posted - 2015.03.02 15:07:47 -
[3] - Quote
So you want supers to counter other supers? If you want to solve this issue provide smart subcapital solution, or care to click a link in my signature. Just to summarize it for you.
There is no dps from a unsieged dred - so there should be no remote reps from untriaged carrier.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.03.02 17:44:22 -
[4] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:And whats to stop them from simply buffertanking (and refitting to stack more resistances for the incoming damage types) until they get locks on MWDing super with the sig radius of a small sun?
I mean that stops the spider sure, but it doesnt stop the buffer... And besides just remote ECM bursting them aught to be more usefull then something that damps them....
And then ofcourse theres the whole "law of unintended concequences" thing where you cannot ensure its just caps getting annoyed by them, dropping say 20 of them on a stack of ishtars or something should be a pretty decent way to break balance...
Used in conjunction with the ECM is when they would really shine. Bust ECM's to break locks, AoE Damp to keep them from very quickly getting the rep chain back up. Buffer isn't the problem, the spider rep is.
Used against Ishtars, well, ishtars are fast. They can warp and re-position quickly. Anything smaller than a capital shouldn't have much problem taking care of them. |
Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 17:48:39 -
[5] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:So you want supers to counter other supers? If you want to solve this issue provide smart subcapital solution, or care to click a link in my signature. Just to summarize it for you.
There is no dps from a unsieged dred - so there should be no remote reps from untriaged carrier.
.....this is a sub-capital solution. Either the AoE damp will be fitted to a ship infini point style or they will be dropped like an MTU, xxxm3, yyy skills, etc. |
Kabark
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2015.03.02 18:55:41 -
[6] - Quote
Target breaker works great on capitals and supers alike as well as friendlies. Possible tactic to counter this is spam target breaker in the blob and snipe from long range. |
Agent Known
Night Theifs DamnedNation
23
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:12:04 -
[7] - Quote
Kabark wrote:Target breaker works great on capitals and supers alike as well as friendlies. Possible tactic to counter this is spam target breaker in the blob and snipe from long range.
There's just the small problem of those only being fittable on BSs and black ops ...both of which will be volleyed off the field the moment they try this. |
Kabark
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:59:51 -
[8] - Quote
Agent Known wrote:Kabark wrote:Target breaker works great on capitals and supers alike as well as friendlies. Possible tactic to counter this is spam target breaker in the blob and snipe from long range. There's just the small problem of those only being fittable on BSs and black ops ...both of which will be volleyed off the field the moment they try this. Hero tackle? |
Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2015.03.03 00:39:36 -
[9] - Quote
Kabark wrote:Agent Known wrote:Kabark wrote:Target breaker works great on capitals and supers alike as well as friendlies. Possible tactic to counter this is spam target breaker in the blob and snipe from long range. There's just the small problem of those only being fittable on BSs and black ops ...both of which will be volleyed off the field the moment they try this. Hero tackle?
Just...no. |
Promiscuous Medusa
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.03.03 00:54:41 -
[10] - Quote
Does everyone forget lockbreaker bombs? |
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Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2015.03.03 01:01:53 -
[11] - Quote
Promiscuous Medusa wrote:Does everyone forget lockbreaker bombs?
Theyve not been forgotten, they just arent enough, BUT, used in conjunction with AoE damps it just might be enough to start being able to dismantle the spider rep outside of whatever target the titans are DD'ing. |
Gypsien Agittain
University of Caille Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2015.03.03 01:13:34 -
[12] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:So you want supers to counter other supers? If you want to solve this issue provide smart subcapital solution, or care to click a link in my signature. Just to summarize it for you.
There is no dps from a unsieged dred - so there should be no remote reps from untriaged carrier. .....this is a sub-capital solution. Either the AoE damp will be fitted to a ship infini point style or they will be dropped like an MTU, xxxm3, yyy skills, etc.
Have you ever realized the cost of a 20 super carriers fleet against your "subcap fleet which must have the chance to kill em"?
500b, >2 years of training for each pilot. You can take em down with 1/5th of their cost on the field, what else do you want? o.o
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
41
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Posted - 2015.03.03 01:22:10 -
[13] - Quote
Rehab Titans by giving Doomsdays the ability to give a target capital ship the ill effects of being in seige/triage mode, but with none of the immediate benefits. The large amount of damage done by the Doomsday itself would just be the icing on the cake.
The only counter to Doomsday will be to go into triage or siege, as you will need as much local tank as possible at that point. |
Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2015.03.03 01:23:47 -
[14] - Quote
Gypsien Agittain wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:So you want supers to counter other supers? If you want to solve this issue provide smart subcapital solution, or care to click a link in my signature. Just to summarize it for you.
There is no dps from a unsieged dred - so there should be no remote reps from untriaged carrier. .....this is a sub-capital solution. Either the AoE damp will be fitted to a ship infini point style or they will be dropped like an MTU, xxxm3, yyy skills, etc. Have you ever realized the cost of a 20 super carriers fleet against your "subcap fleet which must have the chance to kill em"? 500b, >2 years of training for each pilot. You can take em down with 1/5th of their cost on the field, what else do you want? o.o
Have you seen the state of null sec? It's either cruisers online or spiderreppingcapsandsupers online. A deployable or ship fitted mobile damp wouldn't effect cruisers much at all, they are too agile, which is ok since we are seeing nerfs to ishtars/tengus/rails. It would basically only effect those deathballs of caps that are unbreakable in the numbers the blocs can field. Caps shouldn't be going down based only on the cooldown of doomdays, there needs to be sup cap options and this is one of them. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1137
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Posted - 2015.03.03 02:07:26 -
[15] - Quote
Were these magical mystery deployable aoe damps completely invincible or do they like everything else die rapidly once a bunch of carriers sic fighters on them?
Carrier scan res is low, but carrier scan res isn't THAT low. Especially when you are using sensor boosters + Information links which improve lock speed and range.
A single t2 sensor booster on an archon + information links gets you to 121 scan res. A basic Megathron only has 118, 130 with links.
Does your deployable have such massive HP and such tiny sig that even a BS Fleet couldn't get it locked and killed in short order? Because the caps will be locking it in about the same time as a BS if they have an incredibly common Sebo fitted or ready to swap out to.
TLDR: tiny sig really isn't the deterrent you think it is. |
Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 02:18:41 -
[16] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Were these magical mystery deployable aoe damps completely invincible or do they like everything else die rapidly once a bunch of carriers sic fighters on them?
Carrier scan res is low, but carrier scan res isn't THAT low. Especially when you are using sensor boosters + Information links which improve lock speed and range.
A single t2 sensor booster on an archon + information links gets you to 121 scan res. A basic Megathron only has 118, 130 with links.
Does your deployable have such massive HP and such tiny sig that even a BS Fleet couldn't get it locked and killed in short order? Because the caps will be locking it in about the same time as a BS if they have an incredibly common Sebo fitted or ready to swap out to.
TLDR: tiny sig really isn't the deterrent you think it is.
I don't have all the answers, if I did I would I'd have created my own game.
Of course some balance would need to occur, hence the discussion. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1637
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 06:40:31 -
[17] - Quote
Lol@balance - everybody want to change stuff so they get to win more with less.
You can always bring a bunch of dreads, siege them, and blap carriers off the field. But that's not considered a solution, because people only want cap kills, and not cap losses.
Basically, everyone want to fly cheap Ishtars that can disengage at any time, and kill a bunch of expensive carriers with them. In other words, Cruisers killing Capitals = balance. |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
245
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Posted - 2015.03.03 07:46:31 -
[18] - Quote
*Pan over a hotdrop, with carriers and supers being blown apart left and right under Antimatter XL bombardment*
Suicide Dreads, We work FOR YOU!
Sorry felt the strong urge to offer the tagline at the end of the commercial for the moros of blastery hotdroppy death:) |
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn Resonance.
117
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Posted - 2015.03.03 11:45:17 -
[19] - Quote
Sorry, but I kinda see AoE Sensor Damp a bit overpowered. Seeing how strong Damp is in large groups, an AoE version of it seems heavy, especially in Subcap fights (though it would work wonderfully on Ishtards sentry groups). I know there's an AoE ECM, but that's an ECM Burst, not a full 20 second ECM effect. Sensor Dampening Burst, redues your lock range by 75% for 1 second on a 20second cooldown? Not quite what is requested I'd guess? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15360
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Posted - 2015.03.03 12:12:11 -
[20] - Quote
Nerf logi.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1102
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:59:11 -
[21] - Quote
definitely this, maybe add stacking penalties for rep mods
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2015.03.03 20:12:07 -
[22] - Quote
Discomanco wrote:Sorry, but I kinda see AoE Sensor Damp a bit overpowered. Seeing how strong Damp is in large groups, an AoE version of it seems heavy, especially in Subcap fights (though it would work wonderfully on Ishtards sentry groups). I know there's an AoE ECM, but that's an ECM Burst, not a full 20 second ECM effect. Sensor Dampening Burst, redues your lock range by 75% for 1 second on a 20second cooldown? Not quite what is requested I'd guess?
This would have very little effect on mobile doctrines...It's either a ship with a fitted module that has a 20km radius (just a number thrown from nowhere, can be balanced) or a dropped item like the MTU's with 20km radius range which mobile doctrines can easily get away from.
What the heck, do people read? Come on.
This is for the deathballs of supers/carriers that just sit and spider rep and are near unbreakable without requiring a titan (which smaller alliances can't really field). It's a sub cap solution to the n+1 capital problem of spider repping. What mobile doctrine do you know is going to sit there inside a MDU (Mobile Dampening Unit)?? |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2799
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Posted - 2015.03.03 20:20:08 -
[23] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nerf DPS blobs. definitely this, maybe add stacking penalties for multiple ships blapping 1 target
See what I did there....
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
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Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2015.03.03 20:21:49 -
[24] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:definitely this, maybe add stacking penalties for rep mods
I don't think reps are the problem, the problem is the number capitals being fielded. All you people think of is offset by n+1 mechanics.
"Oh you just nerfed the amount of rep I do in a single cycle? Well I'll just bring 1 extra carrier, nerf overcome".
Whereas something like this it doesn't matter how many you bring, you're going to have to over come the issues a different way than just piling in more spider repping supers/carriers in one big ball. You're going to need support to take out the MDU's (Mobile Dampening Units) or the whatever ship has the aoe dampening field. |
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