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Fix the Industry Index

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Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2579	Posted - 2015.03.07 23:57:23 - [1] - Quote Disclaimer: This post is tangentially related to the proposed New Sov System [NSS for short], but it is more broad than that and could be part of ANY Sov Revamp or even the current Sov system. In fact, I'd argue it should be part of the current system because the current industry index is severely broken. Background: Currently the industry index is determined simply the amount of mining in a system[1]. That is it. Now most people when hearing the word industry would think the following, Quote: economic activity concerned with the processing of raw materials and manufacture of goods in factories. or they might think, Quote: the aggregate of manufacturing or technically productive enterprises in a particular field, often named after its principal product or possibly, Quote: any general business activity; commercial enterprise: Basically, industry broadly defined would be activities that add value to "things". Here in the U.S. we have this thing called the Standard Industrial Classifications which assign industries four digit codes (hence the term SIC Codes--note the SIC Code has given way to the NAICS code system). We can see that most reasonable people would include the following as being part of "industry": Production/manufacturing Invention Planetary Interaction Copying Researching Mining Refining Suggested Revision to Industrial Index: Pretty simple really, change the determination of the industrial index to include the items in the above list. When even EVE players think of industrial players they think of the above list. If you were to join an industrial corp you will find that they engage in the above activities to varying degrees. Additionally it can be argued that POS that have things like CSAAs, moon mining arrays, labs, factories, and/or their activites should be counted as well. The reason is simple, they all put things into the EVE economy or they take things in the EVE economy and make them better/more useful.[2] Currently the industry indexes in null sec are pathetic. Including the above list in the calculation of the industry index would fix this. Weighting: I have seen comments about this topic about how including these things for determining the military index is BadGäó since things like PI and moon mining do not really necessitate daily logging in when for example the military index typically does. However, the problem with this argument is that it assumes every industrial activity has to contribute to the index the same amount. However, that does not have to be the case. For example, mining might contribute the most because it will necessitate at least having players logged in on a routine basis. The lowest contributing factor might be moon mining which might have a person logging in 1x a week. For planetary interaction the contribution might be tied to the amount of materials flowing through custom offices. Note the word through. Simply filling a customs office hangar and leaving it would count nothing towards the index. It would have to be picked up. CCP has a huge amount of data and there is considerable research on price indices so that any new index for industry could be structured as to be non-manipulable--i.e. players cannot game it[3]. The Proposed Sov System: CCP has proposed a new sov system that will rely in part on the industry index to determine how long it takes to throw sov structures into reinforcement mode. By not adjusting the clearly broken and partial industry index that is currently in place the time it will take will probably range from 10 to 25 minutes for even the most populated and heavily used systems. This further highlights the problem with EVE sov null sec indices. I know a ton of miners in nullsec: A comment one can find on the forums periodically (e.g. see here) but even if you do "know a ton of miners in nullsec" that does not mean there are a ton of miners in nullsec. [1] That source is a bit old, and exploration may contribute to the industry index, but that is not a very large group of players and if there is a contribution it is likely minimal given that exploration takes place over many systems. [2] For example, does anyone care about hypersynaptic fibers in and of themselves? No. Players care about them because you can use them to make things like particle accelerators. Does anyone care about particle accelerators in and of themselves? No. Players care about particle accelerators because they are used in Tech 2 Blasters which players DO care about. All of these activities are done so we can have Tech 2 versions blasters, drone navigation computers, drone link augmentors, etc. All of these activities are industrial activities pure and simple. Yes, along the way players will make isk for themselves at each stage. That is how capitalism works. The beauty of this is that we put isk in player's wallets, so they can buy the Tech 2 items and also Tech 1 items, so they can go have fun. The economy is really a big circle. Hopefully a circle that is getting bigger. [3] Also, if there are loopholes that players do find to manipulate the index, then declare them exploits and re-work the formula. This all boils down to mathematics and so while the initial implementation might have issues/problems tweaking the formula would fix them. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Madd Adda 31	Posted - 2015.03.08 00:18:30 - [2] - Quote isn't the index player determined? if that's the case, what can CCP do about it? Carebear extraordinaire
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2579	Posted - 2015.03.08 00:29:03 - [3] - Quote What do you mean player determined? If you mean number of players no. If you mean based on player actions then in part yes. It is based on how much you mine (possible exploration). My argument is broaden the list of activities that the index is based on to cover additional industrial activities. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Madd Adda 31	Posted - 2015.03.08 00:44:27 - [4] - Quote that's the thing though, players are what determine the index through the actions they do, not CCP. The index isn't some table CCP can change, it's an ethereal concept the players use. I don't see what CCP can do to "broaden" it. Carebear extraordinaire
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1944	Posted - 2015.03.08 01:56:12 - [5] - Quote Madd Adda wrote: that's the thing though, players are what determine the index through the actions they do, not CCP. The index isn't some table CCP can change, it's an ethereal concept the players use. I don't see what CCP can do to "broaden" it. Uh, yes it is some table CCP can change. it's not some ethereal concept. It's a game mechanic. With a measurement dictated by CCP. And the current measurement is insanely hard to reach. So CCP certainly can alter the measurements.
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 871	Posted - 2015.03.08 02:09:00 - [6] - Quote Supported. If building things doesn't count as industrial activity, then why should killing NPCs count as military activity? The industrial index is definitely broken as is, but I think the game would be better served by removing it entirely. CCP like to refer to EVE as a sandboxGäó but then they go and invent all these artificial restrictions on gameplay like sov indices. Fixing sov is easy - get rid of it. Let anyone build what they want, where they want to build it. Then let anyone else come along and knock it down. Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
Anhenka Infinite Point Nulli Secunda 1195	Posted - 2015.03.08 02:21:50 - [7] - Quote Swiftstrike1 wrote: Supported. If building things doesn't count as industrial activity, then why should killing NPCs count as military activity? The industrial index is definitely broken as is, but I think the game would be better served by removing it entirely. CCP like to refer to EVE as a sandboxGäó but then they go and invent all these artificial restrictions on gameplay like sov indices. Fixing sov is easy - get rid of it. Let anyone build what they want, where they want to build it. Then let anyone else come along and knock it down. It's always funny to see those that do not take part in an activity call for it's removal. Well more pathetic than funny, but still a bit amusing. To the OP, +1. Industry index should encompass mining, refining, production, reactions, moon mining, alchemy, research, invention, copying. Anything and everything that is related to in game industry.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2581	Posted - 2015.03.08 07:27:14 - [8] - Quote Just listened to EVE Down Under (episode 97) where Fozzie discusses indices. He basically made the claim that CCP is just too damn lazy to fix these. If it isn't space based and "disruptable" then it will not count. That is just simple laziness on CCPs part. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Ines Tegator Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc. 583	Posted - 2015.03.08 07:44:40 - [9] - Quote Being mining only is and always was stupid. I used to have an alliance that wanted people to mine in a system 24/7. They didn't build anything with the ore, but they wanted the index higher so they could access ABC easier when they wanted it. Which was never, cause they imported everything from highsec. +1 OP Overhaul Dscan! Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
Belinda HwaFang Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 44	Posted - 2015.03.08 08:01:19 - [10] - Quote +1 to you sir. I've casually thought about this "industry index" in the past, and with the coming changes it is suddenly much more relevant and important than ever before. Ultimately I believe that the system needs to reward all kinds of activities, including but not only mining. -- Fang
Virgil Armstrong Alice In Wonderlands 11	Posted - 2015.03.08 09:29:02 - [11] - Quote I guess CCP wants locally generated industry, not industry based on Jita sourced jump freighters.
Anhenka Infinite Point Nulli Secunda 1196	Posted - 2015.03.08 15:18:14 - [12] - Quote Virgil Armstrong wrote: I guess CCP wants locally generated industry, not industry based on Jita sourced jump freighters. What makes you think that? Yes CCP has stated that in the past, but really nothing about it has happened. t2 still requires importing basically everything due to regional lack of moon goo types. Mineral ratios in belts and anoms still blow for production. Industry index still only takes in mining into account. If CCP wants nullsec industry to shift to local production, they have a really odd way of showing it.
Iain Cariaba 1114	Posted - 2015.03.08 16:30:07 - [13] - Quote Supported. Industry rating being based only on one form of industry makes no sense. It's like the military index being based solely on the number of npc frigates killed in belts only. Moon mining, however, should be left out of the equation, or at the very least have minimal impact. It's too arbitrary based on what moons are there, and even more AFK than PI. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better.
Luna Arindale Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District 54	Posted - 2015.03.08 18:14:48 - [14] - Quote I find it rather weird that a single smart bombing battleship can grind a system to lv 5 mil index within a short amount of time. yet it requires 30+ miners mining over several days to get up to the point where they might get the index to 5 before being camped by tons of people for months. In terms of risk vs reward miners in sov nullsec get the rawest end of the deal in terms of effort required for their bonuses. Now it takes that much to get there, but again to maintain a military index it requires only one person, and they can make 20+ mil every 20 minutes in relative saftey. Miners can quickly lose indexes at the higher levels if there aren't 15 people mining 24/7. While it would be interesting for the industry index to be effected by number of jobs in a system. I would rather see a decrease in the required m3 to get the higher end sites to spawn, and a decrease in the amount of m3 required to keep it. This way smaller groups coming into the new sov system can actually benefit off of the industry index defense bonuses, and so that even compact groups can use their space more effectively. I would also like to see the indexes rebalanced in general. Currently it requires a stupidly crazy amount of miners compared to people ratting to achieve lesser results. While miners don't need anymore buffs to isk/hour as it is pretty well balanced, I would like to see the industry index changed, but not in a way that can't be disrupted by other players. So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons.
Iain Cariaba 1115	Posted - 2015.03.08 18:48:21 - [15] - Quote Luna Arindale wrote: So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons. Yes, leave moon mining, PI, and station jobs out of the formula. At least give them a very, very, very small influence into the induxtry rating. Give people a reason to put up POSes to build things instead of all non-super production being done in the safety of outposts. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better.
Dangeresque Too Pistols for Pandas 120	Posted - 2015.03.08 20:18:10 - [16] - Quote The problem with the system index as current is that a single person can take the index of a system that is at 1, and very quickly make it up to 4 or 5... a single person can do that... which tells me that something is broken with the system. They put it in to get people to move around, but the very act of moving will make it as high or higher than the place you just left. I tried moving once, within a short amount of time the new system had scaled right up to where my old system was, because I was using it. Yeah, it would go down if I completely stopped doing things, but then the problem is I am not doing things... They had implemented teams as a way to get around the extra cost index, but then they just straight took teams out cause they didn't know how to make a proper auction system or didn't understand that 95% of people that even looked at teams didn't care for the endless streams of 0.5% Time Efficiency production teams for small T1 modules/ships that really only took a few hours to build anyways. So they took them out and left industry overall worse off, all by itself with the poorly designed cost index. CCP needs to change the formula for the index to actually make a difference and not be so easily swayed by a single person.
Anhenka Infinite Point Nulli Secunda 1201	Posted - 2015.03.08 20:21:46 - [17] - Quote Dangeresque Too wrote: ~snip~ Completely wrong topic bro. We are talking about the industrial nullsec index, not the per system activity index that increases usage fees. Although that could be integrated into the nullsec system as well ofc in some way.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2583	Posted - 2015.03.09 03:40:34 - [18] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Luna Arindale wrote: So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons. Yes, leave moon mining, PI, and station jobs out of the formula. At least give them a very, very, very small influence into the induxtry rating. Give people a reason to put up POSes to build things instead of all non-super production being done in the safety of outposts. Moon mining and PI mean undocking and going into space. You have to get the product to market after all (be that market in null sec, or in high sec). Similarly for most other "station based activities". Yes, once I have PI goods, T2 components, minerals, BPOs, etc. into station there is not much you can do to stop me, but I have to get those items into station...i.e. I still have to undock periodically. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Gabriel Elarik Celestiel Rams 9	Posted - 2015.03.09 05:45:46 - [19] - Quote i agree miners need much more efford for indu lvl 4-5 than some ratters the indexes need to be re-balanced
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2593	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:01:18 - [20] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Luna Arindale wrote: So, -1 to this idea as it basically gives infinite isk bonuses with undisruptible jobs, but +1 for trying to get an actual discussion of this going I would rather see it done differently than give every system an index of 5 because of moons. Yes, leave moon mining, PI, and station jobs out of the formula. At least give them a very, very, very small influence into the induxtry rating. Give people a reason to put up POSes to build things instead of all non-super production being done in the safety of outposts. Oh, and depending on what you are making...that stuff has to get to market which usually means Jita which again necessitates undocking. On Eve Down Under CCP Fozzie made the following argument against things like building counting for the industry index: Player installs a big batch of jobs. Delivers the product and then reprocesses the output and reinstalling (admittedly a smaller job) and doing so until there isn't any more reprocessing that can be done. Granted this is a Bad ThingGäó but to CCP Fozzie...dude have you never heard of decreasing returns to scale? For example, the more one produces of any given item, the less it contributes to the index. This would promote diversification of the production process. Another way to influence is to give T2 production a larger effect on the index. This way people would be less likely to try and manipulate the process. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Lord Battlestar Faulcon de Lazy 209	Posted - 2015.03.10 04:48:34 - [21] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Yes, leave moon mining, PI, and station jobs out of the formula. At least give them a very, very, very small influence into the induxtry rating. Give people a reason to put up POSes to build things instead of all non-super production being done in the safety of outposts. Everyone I know who builds in nullsec eventually moves some of their wares to highsec, as the market in nullsec just isn't big enough to take all of it. Thus there is still risk, no matter where the wares are built. Besides if CCP truly wants a nullsec that is able to exist without needing freighter runs this would go a long way to achieving that. I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart.
Luna Arindale Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District 54	Posted - 2015.03.10 15:41:14 - [22] - Quote So, currently the industry index effects two things. Ore anomaly spawning, and the chances of relic, data, and mini-profession sites that spawn in the system you own. Now, if we include moon mining I this, most space will have automatically 2-3 industry index that cannot be disrupted short of reinforcing the system and poses. Since it is m3 based it doesn't matter if you make money from it, all that matters is the m3 to give a larger alliance that much more defence with the new sov system, more relic site spawns, more mercoxit spawns as well. The military index is a poor example but the way it works makes sense. You have more ratters in a system, more anoms should spawn. The problem with it is that it is really easy to grind to 5 and mantain it. yet this is really easy to shut down. Park a hot dropping alt in the system and blow up all their shiny battleships with bombers, do that for awhile and you can remove their index. Works with mining too in roughly the same way. However with that in mind it is near impossible to get it down to 0 because it is stupidly simple for a cruiser to mantain it at 3, or for DED sites to keep the index up. Granted you still won because those anoms are relatively cheap. Now the way industry index works is, is based off of m3 mined in a system. While this is all well and good, it also makes sense. The direct benefit of the index, is to mining asteroids and besides exploration, nothing else. You station jobs don't get a bonus because of it, so why should they count to a system which is named improperly for what it actually does. I don't want to see easy mode for industry. I want to see balance. There is a multistep way to fix this problem: 1: Change the current military lv 5 index into the lv 3 index and make it exceedingly difficult to grind up to 5 unless you have tons of people ratting in the same system. Do this to increase quantity of higher end sites, in crowded systems, make the decay for lv 5 and 4 faster as well. 2: rebalance the m3 requirements to mantain lv 3-1 sites so that it is harder to disrupt by a single hotdropper, much in the same way military index is. 3: lower the m3 required to spawn lv 4 and 5 ore anoms. This way miners can actually achieve lv5 index without having to mine in a system for days on end, they still have the risk for a permanent hot dropping alt showing up in the system, just would give the miners a chance to move to another system and mine instead of being somewhat stuck if they are in a small alliance.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2603	Posted - 2015.03.11 04:30:32 - [23] - Quote Luna Arindale wrote: So, currently the industry index effects two things. Ore anomaly spawning, and the chances of relic, data, and mini-profession sites that spawn in the system you own. Now, if we include moon mining I this, most space will have automatically 2-3 industry index that cannot be disrupted short of reinforcing the system and poses. Why? Why must it be an industry index of 2-3 in "most" space? Have you looked at the distribution of R64s and R32s? And did you NOT read the part about how some activities can contribute more than others with moon mining contributing the least? Here is a suggestion, don't assume something about another person's argument. That is a logical fallacy and makes you look dumb. Oh, and given the current mechanics for indices and the proposes sov changes, no to changing how the military index works. 1,000 times no. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 2607	Posted - 2015.03.11 20:30:32 - [24] - Quote "Actaully have the industry index reflect industry...I want to have a reason to have all players of all kinds in my alliance."--theMittani, http://www.themittani.com/media/metashow-episode-12 (at around the 28:50 mark). Prior to that comment above, theMittani talked about how it was amazing to him that industry indexes in null are so poor given that there are things in null that many people would consider industry. Also, the new sov change AND tweaking the industry index could lead alliances to that want to hold sov to opening their doors to more industry oriented players. This has been a unicorn CCP has been chasing for along time. The new system could accomplish it...but not with the current boneheaded index system for industry. Fix it. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Lienzo Amanuensis 47	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:32:55 - [25] - Quote I think I would like to see three separate ihubs, but given how vulnerable they are expected to become, I anticipate seeing a lot fewer of them by Christmas.

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