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Murukan
Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.17 05:40:00 -
[31]
If it gets a 2nd mid you have to scale down it's dps then. At the moment it's the most damaging af but that's balanced by the fact that it cannot solo.
In rust we trust!!! |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.10.17 05:53:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Jaketh Ivanes on 17/10/2006 05:54:28 I like it the way it is. It is not a solo mobile and requires assistance from a friend. One of the few ships that you can't solo with certainty, which also makes it uniqe and far from useless.
I would actually like to see more ships like this. To diversify them more instead of making them look excatly alike.
The way things are going now, we are moving towards excat same slot layout with just different models.. gonna make the game a lot less colorfull
Edit: Spelling.
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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.10.17 06:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Murukan If it gets a 2nd mid you have to scale down it's dps then. At the moment it's the most damaging af but that's balanced by the fact that it cannot solo.
Amarr doesn't have the highest dps ship of any class, RAW Damage calculations are stupid! Calculate with average em/thermal resistances and you'll find out the enyo and ishkur clearly outdamage the retribution. Wouldn't be suprised of the other racial AF's weren't higher as well.
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BlackHorizon
Caldari Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.17 06:12:00 -
[34]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 17/10/2006 06:12:22
Originally by: Murukan If it gets a 2nd mid you have to scale down it's dps then. At the moment it's the most damaging af but that's balanced by the fact that it cannot solo.
Not true. Wolf, Enyo, and Ishkur all have higher damage output. The Retribution is a joke in both PvE (Ishkur's better) and PvP (1 mid slot, rofl).
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Kyozoku
Loot
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Posted - 2006.10.17 06:54:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kyozoku on 17/10/2006 06:55:24 It's lost its role a bit now that the wolf has it's second damage bonus and needs a little boost. I'd rather see it get an extra turret to make it's damage output more competitive.
Fly a vengeance if you want to solo. It's a gang ship and adding another mid wouldn't help it very much.
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.17 07:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kyozoku Edited by: Kyozoku on 17/10/2006 06:55:24 It's lost its role a bit now that the wolf has it's second damage bonus and needs a little boost. I'd rather see it get an extra turret to make it's damage output more competitive.
Fly a vengeance if you want to solo. It's a gang ship and adding another mid wouldn't help it very much.
exactly.
before changes, I've seen retri killing other Afrigs with ease, except the minmatar ones that is. -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.10.17 09:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kyozoku Fly a vengeance if you want to solo. It's a gang ship and adding another mid wouldn't help it very much.
Being in a gang isn't an excuse not to tackle. You're going to have some rather annoyed gang mates if you aren't contributing to the tackle.
The Amarrian approach isn't to keep throwing more and more ships at a problem to completely outweigh the opponents; that's not fighting, that's called blobbing.
I'll also dispel this other silly myth while I'm here. A Retribution is outdamaged by quite a few of the other AFs, do the DoT calculations.
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Eleni Shakira
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2006.10.17 10:07:00 -
[38]
7/4/8 Armageddon anyone?
I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by not switching to Geico.
*snip* Cute, but not eve related - Tirg
Since when are recruitment threads not Eve related? |
Verus Potestas
Caldari Fiat Mort
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Posted - 2006.10.17 10:09:00 -
[39]
Every "tier 2" AF (the old 11 slot ones) has a utility high. The retri needs to lose a low for it's med.
RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
Verus Potestas
Caldari Fiat Mort
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Posted - 2006.10.17 10:10:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Verus Potestas on 17/10/2006 10:11:06
Originally by: Cosmo Raata
Originally by: Murukan If it gets a 2nd mid you have to scale down it's dps then. At the moment it's the most damaging af but that's balanced by the fact that it cannot solo.
Amarr doesn't have the highest dps ship of any class, RAW Damage calculations are stupid! Calculate with average em/thermal resistances and you'll find out the enyo and ishkur clearly outdamage the retribution. Wouldn't be suprised of the other racial AF's weren't higher as well.
I fly a harpy, and would like to tell you that EM damage is not very nice. Thermal/Kin is fine.
RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
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Latex Mistress
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.17 10:26:00 -
[41]
I think this has been done several times since the AF's came out. Most notably in my mind it was Istvaan who railed against the Devs for weeks about the Retri slot layout (to no avail, of course). While I agree on principle that while a single-midslot frigate presents problems, it's far from useless. The last few contracts I've seen have established the "T1 frig zerg rush" as a common tactic. If you don't want to sacrifice a Pulse-Zealot for anti-tackling then a good pilot in a Retri can save your tail every time. Granted this is a limited (and admittedly boring) role, it does work and is well appreciated.
Anyway, good luck with the petition!
LM
Latex Mistresss: bringing truth to the truculent one post at a time
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.10.17 11:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: inSpirAcy
You're going to have some rather annoyed gang mates if you aren't contributing to the tackle.
Not to sound offensive, but that sounds like a very narrow minded approach to me. If I'm in a gang, I would rather have 1 tackler and 1 damage dealer.
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Spaced Skunk
Yesodic Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.17 11:19:00 -
[43]
2nd medium would make this ship overpowered....I have a fitting for this that does a hell of a lot of dps and someone who I fly with will know.
Giving it a 2nd medium would make it overpowered, its one of my favourite assault frigates just after using it a few times on the test server.
In PVP its obviously gang orientated, but you know...its great, good tank, good damage.
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XGS Crimson
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Posted - 2006.10.17 11:21:00 -
[44]
/ signed
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inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.10.17 11:58:00 -
[45]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 17/10/2006 12:01:01
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Not to sound offensive, but that sounds like a very narrow minded approach to me. If I'm in a gang, I would rather have 1 tackler and 1 damage dealer.
While your enemy has two combined tackler/damage dealers (any sub-20km ship), neutralising your threat.
Trying equally not to sound offensive, but if you're in a frigate you should be tackling. Otherwise you're more effective in a stronger damage dealer (hell, a T1 cruiser puts out more damage than an AF), EW ship or support ship.
Edit: Clarified, didn't mean BS there (that's a whole different thread).
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XGS Crimson
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Posted - 2006.10.17 12:01:00 -
[46]
Originally by: inSpirAcy
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Not to sound offensive, but that sounds like a very narrow minded approach to me. If I'm in a gang, I would rather have 1 tackler and 1 damage dealer.
While your enemy has two combined tackler/damage dealers (any sub-20km BS), neutralising your threat.
Trying equally not to sound offensive, but if you're in a frigate you should be tackling. Otherwise you're more effective in a stronger damage dealer (hell, a T1 cruiser puts out more damage than an AF), EW ship or support ship.
tis true, and the retribution can fit a nasty nasty tank on their lows
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Jan Riksma
Dark Reality
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:12:00 -
[47]
No,
2nd slot will make to overpowered and you got the malediction and crusader already to do that job all you want is a hard hitting interceptor.
Cheers,
Jan
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:19:00 -
[48]
I would want to move the utility slot into a low slot. That way the concept of tank&gank (and no tackling!) will get reinforced. As a side effect the retribution would finally be able to fit beams by using the new low for a rcu. The utility high is just useless as it stands. The retribution has too few powergrid to make use of it.
Forsch Defender of the empire
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Damien Smith
Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:23:00 -
[49]
Ok, I'll give you your extra mid, but only if the Lachesis gets an extra low. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) Mission running carebears drop good loot. Probe one out today! I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg +=♥ - Immy |
Gabriel Aaron
Amarr Omega Fleet Enterprises Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.17 16:37:00 -
[50]
I am used to the 1 mid slot. I would rather have the 5th high slot turned into a turret slot.
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liquidshadows
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Posted - 2006.10.17 21:51:00 -
[51]
So all AF's have a utility hi slot? Oh yea so does the wolf, 4 turret 1 launcher....o wait....thats not a utility hi its a missile hardpoint, guess your wrong on that.
Retrib does highest dps? nope I believe its 4th under the ishkur, wolf, enyo, then ret, wrong again.
So for the people who do enjoy the 5th utility hi what do you put there? does a corpum nos fit, or do you have to use faction fittings just to get anything in there? I think for balance purposes if you need to fill all your slots on an AF by using faction fittings all the AF's should have this problem.
Point still stands, 5th Hi is near useless, amarr are out gunned by 3 other ships (enyo with blasters I can understand but ishkur and wolf?) what happened to amarr DPS philosophy?
Also to the person who said it should loose a low for a med, then you have a wolf and ccp wouldnt do that, oh actually it would be worse than a wolf, no launcher hardpoint.
Did I shoot a hole in everyones arguement against it? I think I covered them all.
Please post more comments for/against, i'll be happy to dispute them.
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liquidshadows
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Posted - 2006.10.17 23:00:00 -
[52]
If anyone has the time could they post the dps calculations or graphs that one assault ship dps thread had? and maybe run the ret with a 5th turret with either dual light pulse II's or med pulse II's (if it got a grid/cpu tweak) I doubt it will ever have the grid/cpu to fit 5 med beam II's, maybe run 5 dual light beam II's if you want. See how it stacks up to the other af's with some tweakage.
Short Range -------------- Blaster harpy Rocket hawk Blaster enyo Blaster Ishkur AC wolf + rocket Pulse Ret
Long Range --------------- Rail harpy Std Missile hawk rail enyo rail ishkur artilary wolf + missile beam ret
Make sure to compare like weapons, or as close as possible.
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Goumindong
Amarr The Forsakened Companions Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.17 23:30:00 -
[53]
5 med beam 2's at max skills requires 76 base PG to fit, and you only get the beams[you will have .5 PG left after them]
25% bonus from Engineering V and a 10% reduction from AWU V right?
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liquidshadows
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Posted - 2006.10.17 23:35:00 -
[54]
Yep med beams are pretty much not viable, even 4x med beams is a pain to fit, not like the ease of 4x 150mm rails or 4x artilary, but thats a different issue.
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Sev Renard
Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2006.10.18 07:32:00 -
[55]
Originally by: liquidshadows Stuff and stuff
A quick niticky point, but I fail to see how a blaster harpy outdamages a blaster enyo... identical hardpoints/hislots and identical damage boni/bonuses. _________________________________________
I wonder which will come first, my portrait, or a sig hijack... |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.18 08:48:00 -
[56]
Retribution suffer chronical amarr nerfs of late.... 1. armor compensations and eanms 2. ew(jammaharpy is very viable option) 3. retarded beam fittings 4. general hp increase since rmr(pre RMR it was inty killer deluxe when you sacrificed mobility and fit web - they popped b4 they warped, now they laugh at you when they warp out in 10% armor - while harpy / enyo/ wolf can web AND scramble)
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liquidshadows
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Posted - 2006.10.20 22:51:00 -
[57]
My biggest gripe with this ship is that it does nothing CCP promises or wnats it to do.
Amarr outgun and out tank them all? -Naw, wolf, enyo, and ishkur all out damage the ret, maybe even a blaster harpy...sad -There is no corpum small armor rep, so hawk and harpy out tank it with gisti small shield boost (i know its a mute point but still true) and honestly since it needs 2 cap relays anyway for those cap greedy guns, any 4 lowslot armor tank can just run 1 relay and same tank, and I think the hawk even without a gist booster out tanks it
-Finally if CCP wanted AF's to be cepter killers they WOULDNT have 1 med slot, you just cant kill a cepter with A web or A scrambler or A mwd/ab...you need at least 2 of the 3
So in closing, the ship doesnt meet amarr description, nor does it meet CCPs desires, its just broken.
Ovuer, tux, anyone? Would love some input.
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Kyozoku
Loot
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:25:00 -
[58]
It's not as simple as raw dps. Retris can fit 2 damage mods and still have an extremely strong tank. Enyos and ishkurs cannot. They have to sacrifice their tank if they fit for gank.
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El Ponja
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:49:00 -
[59]
doubt ccp is going to boost anything thats amarr... anyways.... /signed _____________ Amarr KhanidMKII |
liquidshadows
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:58:00 -
[60]
Ret cant fit 2 dmg mods and still fit a good tank, that doesnt even begin to make sense, try to fit one with med pulse (or for a real impossible task med beams) put an ab or web or whatever in med, small repper II, 1 cap relay, and 1 passive heat amp and what do you get? not sustainable, incredibly nos vulnerable, and an empty 5th hi slot, do the ishkur and enyo have empty slots? I think not.
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