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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
946
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:00:28 -
[1] - Quote
You cannot allow any combination which becomes a carebears paradise - i.e. it needs to be LESS safe than today. Not more. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
946
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:08:22 -
[2] - Quote
Querns wrote:afkalt wrote:You cannot allow any combination which becomes a carebears paradise - i.e. it needs to be LESS safe than today. Not more. These structures are fully destructible. Why shouldn't we be able to claw out superior sensor suites when a band of murderous and marauding maniacs can easily destroy them?
Because of course, a roaming gang hunting 'bears TOTALLY bring enough power to the field to start blapping structures |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
946
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:13:10 -
[3] - Quote
If it gets safer, you might as well add a new structure called "The BatphoneGäó" which will cause concord to come blow up "illegal" aggressors in your space.
I do not think, sir, you've ever hunted ratters. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
946
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:29:56 -
[4] - Quote
No-one gets to "afk defend" by virtue of spending isk. It is the antithesis of how the game should work, you don't get to buy protection - you make it yourself with ACTIVE players.
Imagine if someone posted "I should get to spend isk to make me all but impossible to gank in my freighter, even though it's already stupid hard to gank. To balance it, a bunch of people can RF and maybe destroy the protection over a period of days. This will totally make my ship vulnerable and completely balanced". That's pretty much what you'd be asking for here.
At BEST the level of safety at maximum level should be equivalent to today. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
946
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:38:32 -
[5] - Quote
You know you could just pony up and say you want to rat in complete safety (provided you have a pulse). All the reward, none of the risk.
It would be more honest. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
948
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:57:05 -
[6] - Quote
Yroc Jannseen wrote:afkalt wrote:You know you could just pony up and say you want to rat in complete safety (provided you have a pulse). All the reward, none of the risk.
It would be more honest. Thanks for this, accusing Querns of ratting gave me a good laugh this morning. Seriously though, we're talking about an intel tool that can be destroyed and in all likelihood will be connected to changes to Local. That's pretty amazing. This is exactly what the farms and fields concept is about. If you don't like part of our sandcastle, come knock it down.
I'm sorry - I wasn't aware he spoke for the entirety of sov null. My bad.
You see, what with the quite literally ENDLESS TEARS about "afk cloaking" and the utter hate that cynoceptors make hiding behing walls of bubbles tougher (you actually need to not fall asleep in your afktar) I'd rather believed ratting was ... something done quite a lot. As was hunting them.
I also do not believe that it is a stretch to think that if any combination of events is made possible to make ratting safer, the nullbears will be on that like flies on shite. Can't have any risk cluttering up the reward now, can we?
But by all means, try and convince me that null ratting needs to be SAFER than it already is. This should be hilarious.
Oh and in case it wasn't clear - needing to commit to tearing down sov structures over a period of days to endanger any ratter who has managed to stay conscious is not desirable nor is it reasonable. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
948
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 14:01:09 -
[7] - Quote
Querns wrote:afkalt wrote: Oh and in case it wasn't clear - needing to commit to tearing down sov structures over a period of days to endanger any ratter who has managed to stay conscious is not desirable nor is it reasonable.
Far be it for you to have to commit to even a fraction of the effort that the defenders have to employ.
It is tough to get a scout/alt to watch the pipe, it's true. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
949
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 16:13:28 -
[8] - Quote
xttz wrote:afkalt wrote:You see, what with the quite literally ENDLESS TEARS about "afk cloaking" and the utter hate that cynoceptors make hiding behing walls of bubbles tougher (you actually need to not fall asleep in your afktar) I'd rather believed ratting was ... something done quite a lot. As was hunting them.
I also do not believe that it is a stretch to think that if any combination of events is made possible to make ratting safer, the nullbears will be on that like flies on shite. Can't have any risk cluttering up the reward now, can we?
But by all means, try and convince me that null ratting needs to be SAFER than it already is. This should be hilarious. The cognitive dissonance here is absolutely staggering. We're talking about removing local intel by default and introducing game mechanics that require effort and investment to restore that information. Your argument against it is that it's a ploy to remove all risk from ratting. Incredible. Still, this utter shambles of a post does a great job of highlighting your personal bias and an agenda to shoot down ideas based on who they come from rather addressing actual issues. By all means please keep anonymously making points built entirely around hyperbole and stereotypes. That will really stick it to those darn nullbears.
If you actually read the thread you'll notice that my first post was that it should not be possible to be safer than TODAY.
At this point, your compatriots jumped all over me. So tell me, who has the agenda? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
949
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 16:24:16 -
[9] - Quote
Less safe, not more was what I said.
And as I said, was promptly jumped on. Who did the jumping and as to their reasons is nothing I can influence however so I'll kindly ask for the removal of the conspiracy/bias/"agenda" tinfoil hattery you all have got going in here.
We do not need MORE safety out in null.
I mean just look at the ideas on this PAGE alone (or prior page, if this wraps). Find cloakers, easy scanning, fake dscan results. All conducive to a nice, safe blanket with which to sit in almost complete safety. None of these promote conflict, none of these are conflict drivers. These are ALL designed to make space SAFER.
So do we really need moredafety out there, is that what you're all telling me? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
951
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 19:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:afkalt wrote:Less safe, not more was what I said.
And as I said, was promptly jumped on. Who did the jumping and as to their reasons is nothing I can influence however so I'll kindly ask for the removal of the conspiracy/bias/"agenda" tinfoil hattery you all have got going in here it is not a good idea to use the number of how many people pointed out the obvious flaws in your reasoning as support for that reasoning
Except they've not. It's just been a giant circle jerk of how to make their space safer. Of course expecting anything else is like turkeys voting for Christmas...
I want to promote risk, I want to promote conflict - these are the cornerstones of eve. Some people want to promote less risk, promote 'turtling up' on the grounds that they paid for it so should somehow be allowed to. This is appalling and should be stamped on with vigor. It is as abhorrent as making highsec safer.
Null bears utter, vitriolic hatred for ANYTHING that brings them risk is well documented and this thread is merely underpinning that fact.
Eve needs less saftey, not more. Never more. |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
969
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 12:09:39 -
[11] - Quote
Don't you feel that without some guidelines/limitations on range, created gates could massively undermine jump fatigue changes?
Gates are ok, fatigueless jump bridges 2.0...less so. Just imo, of course.
edit: or is there an implicit suggestion that they can only link to "adjacent" systems? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
970
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 13:04:51 -
[12] - Quote
Indeed, that was why I likened them more to jump bridges - I'm sure they'll figure something out but I just wanted to make sure it's nor overlooked |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
975
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 13:41:35 -
[13] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Your attackers arent disguised in a mass of static/false positives in null sec. Yeah, its safer for ratting.
Correct. I spend more time mashing Dscan in highsec than null.
The undeniable truth is that it is harder to die ratting in null than the same activity in high if you're remotely paying attention HOWEVER it is easier to let yourself be disrupted in null, if that non-blue in local scares you so much.
Even an interceptor, KNOWING where the target is to warp to is actualy hard pressed to catch a sufficiently alert ratter, even if they are not already aligned. Test it yourself - see how long it takes for your name to pop into local vs you landing at a belt and being able to point the nearest rock. It's a LOT longer than you might suspect. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
979
|
Posted - 2015.03.28 12:18:12 -
[14] - Quote
If you can find cloakers, what risk is left in null ratting, an activity stated by CCP to bring in "a ****-ton" of isk?
Even an interceptor finds it almost impossible to snag an alert pilot. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
984
|
Posted - 2015.03.30 10:52:56 -
[15] - Quote
Dr Farallon wrote:I think the emphasis is on being AFK and cloaked while camping a system. Cloaky camping should be low risk for the purposes of actively playing and reconnoitering a system or setting a trap. If, however, you are logged into a system and AFK for long periods of time you should suffer the same risks as the rest of us who are un-docked and actively playing. Anything otherwise, including the current AFK cloaking mechanics, are completely against what EVE Online is about.
Edit: I'm placing a lot of hope in the Observation Array fixing the horribly broken AFK cloaked camping mechanics.
Waffle. It's risk perfectly matches the reward the mechanics afford - that would be zero, for clarity. Should you choose to reward it further by allowing it to curtail your activities....that is your doing and yours alone.
Maybe you and your ilk are just not cut out for life outside empire. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
994
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 20:17:28 -
[16] - Quote
Dr Farallon wrote:afkalt wrote:Dr Farallon wrote:I think the emphasis is on being AFK and cloaked while camping a system. Cloaky camping should be low risk for the purposes of actively playing and reconnoitering a system or setting a trap. If, however, you are logged into a system and AFK for long periods of time you should suffer the same risks as the rest of us who are un-docked and actively playing. Anything otherwise, including the current AFK cloaking mechanics, are completely against what EVE Online is about.
Edit: I'm placing a lot of hope in the Observation Array fixing the horribly broken AFK cloaked camping mechanics. Waffle. It's risk perfectly matches the reward the mechanics afford - that would be zero, for clarity. Should you choose to reward it further by allowing it to curtail your activities....that is your doing and yours alone. Maybe you and your ilk are just not cut out for life outside empire. I live exclusively outside of empire space, and I'm not terribly bothered by active scouts like Mordus Angles because at least they're actively playing the game. My problem is with players who sit in systems cloaked and afk for prolonged periods. For every problem in the game, there should be a solution, and not one that involves running away to the next system over or ignoring the threat. Any player in this game should be able to hunt down and destroy any other player who is negatively affecting his experience. I'm pretty sure entire EVE expansions were released around that principle. If you're really scouting a system and at your keyboard I don't see what the problem is with hitting the re-cloak button every once in a while. Even miners, with as passive an activity as you can get in EVE, have to switch targets every once in a while. It's not much to ask for. A cloaked player, especially one that's afk and not moving around, is essentially invulnerable and that goes against the very core of what EVE Online is about. There should be checks and balances in place to prevent that kind of gameplay. I'm hoping the Observation Array does exactly that.
What threat is an AFK player? The core of eve is a risk/reward balance. What reward do the game mechanics provide? Ratting in 1.0 with a noobship offers a greater reward.
Furthermore, how is a docked player any more vulnerable than a cloaked one? Do you want to force undocking periodically as well? The difference of course is you can go check - the problem is you're letting your own fear control you.
PLAYERS have created the "problem" with cloaky campers, CCP should NOT need to fix problems created by players risk aversity.
Edit: I mean, for goodness sakes, the insurance on a T1 BS is what...0+% of the hull cost (I just chcekd a domi - 203m insurance, sell orders in jita are 200m)? ONE anomaly and you're in free and clear profit. Who gives a crap if you lose the ship? Player attitudes need adjusting; not mechanics. Or, if you MUST use a multibillion ship to rat - take the appropriate precautions. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
994
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 21:44:01 -
[17] - Quote
Why does the potential loss of a ship frighten you so much?
A ship which, should you choose, is FULLY insured above and beyond purchase price. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
994
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 22:26:21 -
[18] - Quote
I'd wager between the few famous high sec chokes multiple billions have been lost too. Likely by suboptimal players.
Conflict is fine [actively encouraged], however the overarching desire is to (effectively) remove the last risk from null ratting. The reality, however of letting players find cloaked people is that you make ratting safer because people would be forced to log out, there is no longer any ambiguity and with that means no risk. No die rolling.
My main point is, it's already inordinately hard to catch a ratter - they HAVE to be doing it wrong to be caught as it is - making that safer is...a poor direction. We shouldn't use the lowest common demoninator to debate balance and mechanics.
My other point is cloaky campers and peoples fear thereof is irrational - unless you're in a very expensive hull but then....that hangs a target on you EVERYWHERE so you ought to take suitable precautions. I STILL do not understand peoples obsession with not losing a throwaway ratting ship.
There are already ways to hunt the players - it simply requires counterplay and letting them take a nip at your first. One troll dual tanked tanked boat with a cyno....those tables can turn fast. But [almost] no-one does it. I don't understand it, baiting the hunters is one of the best and most satisfying thing in the game. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
994
|
Posted - 2015.03.31 23:05:18 -
[19] - Quote
No, your issue is you can't tell if they are active and are crippled by your own fears.
Don't kid yourself people would hunt them, the'll safe up faster than you can say warp out. This is obvious because they can be hunted TODAY. The only thing stopping you....is you. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
996
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 07:19:04 -
[20] - Quote
I repeat - you're limiting yourself. You're crippled by your own projected fears of the boogieman.
I will concede that afk cloaking is a problem just as soon as wormholers complain about it with even half the effort of nullbears. That's the real thing though, isn't it? No perfect blanket of local to go hide behind. Last I checked WH guys still kill a bunch of rats....
If you want afk cloaking to stop being 'rewarded' then STOP letting it bother you.. |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
998
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 13:26:26 -
[21] - Quote
No, you're scared. If you were not scared, none of this would be a problem.
You're using phrases like
>Negatively affecting his experience. How? I mean, if you're not frighten or threaten by them...how?
>There should be checks and balances in place to prevent that kind of gameplay. What gameplay?
>cloak up for the purposes of harassing players in that system How are they managing this if you're not bothered by them?
You say you can't fight back against cloaked ships - yet you fail to mention that a cloaked ship is INCAPABLE of interacting with you via game mechanics.
Again, your issues are 100% psychological as there is no game mechanic in existence that lets a cloaker hurt you.
YOU let them get to you YOU allow a non-blue in local to dictate your actions
It's not like when someone hits "cloak" all the rats and rocks disappear, for goodness sakes.
The very fact you keep calling them names shows just how much they are getting to you.
If AFK cloakers can be found, there is literally no safer place in EVE to rat in peace. That strikes me as entirely innapropriate for the levels of reward in null.
Now if we were to talk about things being mutually exclusive - you can find cloaked ships, but you lose local - or vice versa....that creates interesting opportunities and retains balance. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1000
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 14:08:20 -
[22] - Quote
You're the one posting emotive posts about the "threats" and their "impacting" you and I'm simply asking - what game mechanics allow a cloaked vessel to interact with you?
I'm simply arguing the unambiguous fact that they CANT TOUCH YOU. However, in the spirit of debate name me but ONE of the things these veritable scourages of the cosmos can do to you. Shouldn't be hard since you have such a torrid time with them. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1000
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 15:20:27 -
[23] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:A cyno is worthless as a tactical threat, because the opposing player has zero forewarning about existing forces already present. The tactical value of a cyno is that it bypasses the warning caused by seeing a list of hostile names in local.
Even that is greatly limited now (with a couple of exceptions (blops and something I've forgotten) ) due to new jump range limits making map stats very valuable. Takes a minute or two tow bomb over in an interceptor and see if people are huddled in scary ships. Watchlisting titan pilots helps as well.
I used to rat in an area filled with known droppers but with judicious use of map stats and an alt to check out discrepancies it was very hard to get caught and dropped.
The careless die. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1001
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:29:13 -
[24] - Quote
Lucien Visteen wrote:A player that is afk can not touch you, that is very true. But saying that they can't hurt you, is false.
I agree but for clarity my position was they can only hurt you if YOU let them, that we the players give them the rewards. It is within our power to stop that without changing the mechanics to make null safer. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1002
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:12:16 -
[25] - Quote
How can you honestly not see that forcing cloaking to be ATK only gameplay makes null significantly safer? The last imperfection of locals perfect intel is swept away. There is no ambiguity - ANYONE non blue in local is an active and immediate
No other area of space is afforded such safety and protection and rightly so because that level of proection has no place in eve.
Even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you'll go attack the cloaker - the sweeping majority of nullbears will not. It will stifle all risk to ratters and a significant amount of conflict will die with it. As mentioned it is ALREADY almost impossible to catch someone paying attention. Yes, people still die but just because people are idiots/watching TV whilst afktaring doesn't mean the risk is needing lowered.
Like I say, trash local completely and I'm absolutely fine with cloakers being findable. Keeping local intact and any possibility of finding a cloaked ship will only result in increasing the overall safety of null - somewhere it is ALREADY extremely hard to lose a ratting ship in, though admittedly easier to have your ratting disrupted. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1002
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 20:37:26 -
[26] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: If they don't go fight the cloaker then he remains a threat and you should have no problem with that. The point here is to give players a tool to actively counter AFK cloaking gameplay, which will (by definition) create conflict.
I'd also like to address this bit specifically: "As mentioned it is ALREADY almost impossible to catch someone paying attention."
Now, go check Eve-Kill for kills in Null Sec with rats on the damage log. Go ahead, I'll wait. Quite a few aren't there. So either a lot of people don't pay attention, or your assumption is faulty. Either way there are plenty of people dying in Null, both with and without cloaky ships on the kill-mail.
And it's almost impossible to lose a freighter in highsec, yet it happens on a daily basis. Because people are sloppy and careless. That there are stupid people out there doesn't mean we balance for them.
Cade Windstalker wrote:Besides, your argument here is self-defeating. Not two posts ago you say that cloaked ships are no threat, and yet here you're saying that removing AFK cloaking makes Null safer. Which is it? Are they a threat or aren't they?
I said they only get what they are given. If you're giving them something...well that's your deal.
Cade Windstalker wrote:The entire idea that Null is "safe" is demonstrably false, any accurate kill-board shows that clearly. Which means that your definition of "extremely hard to lose a ratting ship" seems to lie under the presumption that it would be good for the game if it were easy to lose more ISK trying to rat in Null than you make doing so. Since that's a ridiculous suggestion I'm left wondering what, exactly, your problem is with either cloaking or the current state of the game in Null.
It seems to me you don't care to risk your ship fighting someone who might actually shoot back and feel that anyone engaged in money-making activities in Null should be a "free kill" if you put in any amount of effort at all.
It's far from demonstrably false - anyone PAYING ATTENTION will be safed up before even an interceptor has a realistic chance of landing on grid with them. This is easy to check. You appear in local seconds (let's say 2) before your grid is even loaded, you then need to dscan them (let's be nice and say that takes you 4 seconds), you then need to get into (2 second minimum) and out of warp (indeterminate time) with a further 2 second minimum to lock and point them.
So we're at 2+4+2+X+2. That's 10+X. A DOUBLE plated dominix will be in warp in 13 seconds. If you think you can get through a warp tunnel and start a lock in 3 seconds....I have a bridge to sell you.
So, even a double plated domi, if paying attention shouldn't be caught. If the pilot is napping/distracted/watching netflix...then hell mend them.
Point being, just because careless people die, doesnt mean a damned thing. I could use the same flawed assertion to attempt call for highsec buffs because freighters, barges and mission ships die wholesale because people are dumb...
So tell me this, if local becomes the perfect tool and no uncertainties remain - what IS going to kill a ratter? If there's no more danger to ratting, the already epic isk faucet of null can freely go into overdrive. No-one wants that. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1003
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 21:39:56 -
[27] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:You are missing the point where many null residents are ok with giving delayed local with the upcomming changes, they are only asking for a way to hunt the hunter as up until now had a free pass in null.
And that's fine - my fundamental contention since page 1 has only been for it not to get SAFER as a result of these changes.
edit: And for gates not to become massive fatigue avoidance mechanisms. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1004
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 22:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
And I've never understood why people buy code permits, but you can't fix stupid. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1004
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 22:28:57 -
[29] - Quote
You lost me at freighters getting killed when flown competently. Sorry.
Scout. Webs. Home free, every time, without fail. Even the gankers will tell you this!
Cloaking only even exists as a form of psychological warfare because of local. Further I don't think you understand the difference between decisions a pilot makes borne out of fear vs things forced upon them, by mechanics. It's EXACTLY like the whole permit nonsense.
So on that basis we should probably stop, but try and remember it's a new world now - you're not getting dropped from the other side of the galaxy - so look at map stats, check out recent kills, know the bridgers, know the cyno alts and the passers by, keep an eye on intel for other people being attacked via cynos as then you have the fatigue window to not worry about that group, rat as a team...hell the list is pretty enormous (and ironically every high sec survival tip is valid)....but it's all little details like this which allow you to bash on even if the dreaded red is in system. Or you can let that guy ruin your entire evening, I know what I do.
PS: Domis are still selling for 100% of insurance....unless you're losing ships literally hand over fist and the insurance cost is kill you....I can't fathom how you couldnt make it work. |
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