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James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:16:00 -
[61]
Did they stealth nerf the drone bay on the Myr. It was originally supposed to be 250m3. If they are going to only put 100m3 drone bay on a DRONE BOAT they need to add 2 more turret slots, or allow us Gallente players the ability to shoot turrets/launchers off enemy ships. The other option would be to make drones unlockable.
If you are going to give us a drone boat, give us a drone boat. Or chop turret/launcher slots off the other races new BC to compensate.
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Kastar
Chronodynamics
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:23:00 -
[62]
Linkage
More Myrmidon screenshots -----------------------------------------------
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:26:00 -
[63]
Originally by: James Draekn Did they stealth nerf the drone bay on the Myr. It was originally supposed to be 250m3. If they are going to only put 100m3 drone bay on a DRONE BOAT they need to add 2 more turret slots, or allow us Gallente players the ability to shoot turrets/launchers off enemy ships. The other option would be to make drones unlockable.
If you are going to give us a drone boat, give us a drone boat. Or chop turret/launcher slots off the other races new BC to compensate.
You gallente boys need to get a hold of yourselfs. 250 m3 drone bay... are you at all interested in game balance? I would be embarrassed suggesting stuff like that for the minmatar...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:32:00 -
[64]
Jim, if you want a Minmatar analogy to the Myrmidon situation, imagine this:
The Hurricane has what it has now, with one exception - it's got 4 turrets. You're asking for the rightful 5th, 6th, and 7th turrets. People tell you "you've got to get a hold of yourself, it's got those fancy missile hardpoints, too."
As it stands now, the only difference from the Vexor is generally: a lot more expensive, easier to hit, better tank, and much slower. That's it. Not worth it. - What am I listening to? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:41:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 19:44:31 Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 19:42:40
Originally by: Ithildin Jim, if you want a Minmatar analogy to the Myrmidon situation, imagine this:
The Hurricane has what it has now, with one exception - it's got 4 turrets. You're asking for the rightful 5th, 6th, and 7th turrets. People tell you "you've got to get a hold of yourself, it's got those fancy missile hardpoints, too."
As it stands now, the only difference from the Vexor is generally: a lot more expensive, easier to hit, better tank, and much slower. That's it. Not worth it.
It all depends. You got the option to field 4 heavy drones, while the others can field 2 or 1 heavy drone. Im not sure exacly how much dps 2 or 3 ogre II is, but I can imagine its quite alot when you have good skills? That *should* make up for the 2 less turrets?
Also you have 3 more high slots.
I would like to see some dps comparisons before I can say if its underpowered or not, but I know those Ogre II hurt like hell....if the dps shows that its not enough, then adding an extra gun would be easy. Im not against it... I think both you and me want balance between the races, and I like your posts most of the time. :)
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XGS Crimson
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:43:00 -
[66]
haha CCP wants you to make a mini domi outa this with no gun damage bonus is amazing!
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James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:44:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
You gallente boys need to get a hold of yourselfs. 250 m3 drone bay... are you at all interested in game balance? I would be embarrassed suggesting stuff like that for the minmatar...
Since you are a Caldari how about we chop off 2 maybe 3 of your missile slots on the Drake, oh and give everyone the ability to target your remaining missile launchers. Because thats what CCP is doing to the Myr. You counter drones by killing them, since drone boats usually don't have that great of turret missile slots. What do we have to counter your guns, nothing. We have to deal with the entire ship to deal with them. This is a balance issue, since we heard that the Tier 2 BC were supposed to be GANK ships not tank. Giving the Myr at least 150m3 of drone space would be appropriate, so it could run heavy drones, bringing its dps back inline with the rest of the class.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:48:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Ithildin on 24/10/2006 19:54:16 It is supposed to make up for the two-three missing turrets and the missing turret bonus.
4x Ogre II = 4 * 1.92 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 24 * 2 = 506.88 thermal dps. No replacements. No small flight of drones. Negligible backup dps from turrets. Very, very, short operational range.
What I'm asking for is the drone bay to be increased so that it can accept backup drones. The dps will increase with merely 126.72 for a total of 633.6 - easily offsetting that there is no capability for damage mods on this damage!
However, the most important aspect is the backup drones. You can't load/unload drones from cargo to drone bay, if you could it wouldn't be such a terrible LARGE issue.
Edit: (425mm AC II) Hurricane damage: 346.5 With 3 dmg mods: 574
Hmm... actually the damage amount isn't the issue. Underlying issue with drones is that there's no limit on their use other than drone bay SIZE. *grumblegrumble*
They should really look into that. Make it so there's a stat on each ship limiting drone control, so that you can carry backup drones on, say, a Vexor, without unbalancing it. - What am I listening to? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:49:00 -
[69]
Originally by: James Draekn
Originally by: Jim McGregor
You gallente boys need to get a hold of yourselfs. 250 m3 drone bay... are you at all interested in game balance? I would be embarrassed suggesting stuff like that for the minmatar...
Since you are a Caldari how about we chop off 2 maybe 3 of your missile slots on the Drake, oh and give everyone the ability to target your remaining missile launchers. Because thats what CCP is doing to the Myr. You counter drones by killing them, since drone boats usually don't have that great of turret missile slots. What do we have to counter your guns, nothing. We have to deal with the entire ship to deal with them. This is a balance issue, since we heard that the Tier 2 BC were supposed to be GANK ships not tank. Giving the Myr at least 150m3 of drone space would be appropriate, so it could run heavy drones, bringing its dps back inline with the rest of the class.
No no...I fly minmatar ships actually. And Drake looks too strong, but we'll see. And yes, I would also like to see some dps graphs with the new battlecruisers. I definently want balance to this game for all races, and gallente have been looking abit too strong for a long time now.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:52:00 -
[70]
Its my personal oppinions that this thing is going to need more drone space for replacement drones or its going to have SERIOUS issues.
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lofty29
Praxiteles Inc. E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:53:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: James Draekn
Originally by: Jim McGregor
You gallente boys need to get a hold of yourselfs. 250 m3 drone bay... are you at all interested in game balance? I would be embarrassed suggesting stuff like that for the minmatar...
Since you are a Caldari how about we chop off 2 maybe 3 of your missile slots on the Drake, oh and give everyone the ability to target your remaining missile launchers. Because thats what CCP is doing to the Myr. You counter drones by killing them, since drone boats usually don't have that great of turret missile slots. What do we have to counter your guns, nothing. We have to deal with the entire ship to deal with them. This is a balance issue, since we heard that the Tier 2 BC were supposed to be GANK ships not tank. Giving the Myr at least 150m3 of drone space would be appropriate, so it could run heavy drones, bringing its dps back inline with the rest of the class.
No no...I fly minmatar ships actually. And Drake looks too strong, but we'll see. And yes, I would also like to see some dps graphs with the new battlecruisers. I definently want balance to this game for all races, and gallente have been looking abit too strong for a long time now.
Gallente have hardly been strong. It's been the dominix, vexor + eos that have given that impression. Drones, nos, ecm = win. Now that ECM is half as good (THANK GOD!!!) they'll go down in a synch ---
Praxiteles Inc. is Recruiting! |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:53:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Tasty Burger on 24/10/2006 19:54:16
Originally by: Ithildin It is supposed to make up for the two-three missing turrets and the missing turret bonus.
4x Ogre II = 4 * 1.92 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 24 * 2 = 506.88 thermal dps. No replacements. No small flight of drones. Negligible backup dps from turrets. Very, very, short operational range.
What I'm asking for is the drone bay to be increased so that it can accept backup drones. The dps will increase with merely 126.72 for a total of 633.6 - easily offsetting that there is no capability for damage mods on this damage!
However, the most important aspect is the backup drones. You can't load/unload drones from cargo to drone bay, if you could it wouldn't be such a terrible LARGE issue.
You do realize that with drones alone the myrmidon outdamages a hurricane? And that is with 3 gyrostab IIs. There, hurricane now has 3 less lows, only one highslot, and 4 meds to your 5.
Your post is absolutely ridiculous. With 5 ogre IIs a myrmindon would outdamage a tempest with autocannons and 2-3 gyro IIs. And outrange it.
You don't NEED damage mods. And you're forgetting that you an still put turrets on the ship for even more damage.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:55:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Ithildin It is supposed to make up for the two-three missing turrets and the missing turret bonus.
4x Ogre II = 4 * 1.92 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 24 * 2 = 506.88 thermal dps. No replacements. No small flight of drones. Negligible backup dps from turrets. Very, very, short operational range.
What I'm asking for is the drone bay to be increased so that it can accept backup drones. The dps will increase with merely 126.72 for a total of 633.6 - easily offsetting that there is no capability for damage mods on this damage!
However, the most important aspect is the backup drones. You can't load/unload drones from cargo to drone bay, if you could it wouldn't be such a terrible LARGE issue.
I need to see the dps of the other battlecruisers to compare. But in the end, Tux decides. Maybe he will take a look at the Myrmiddon and agree with you, and that would be fine. I just want balance, and not the kind of balance where gallente pwns everything close range, because thats exacly where mosts fights are taking place. We need balance in that range too.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:55:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tasty Burger Edited by: Tasty Burger on 24/10/2006 19:54:16
Originally by: Ithildin It is supposed to make up for the two-three missing turrets and the missing turret bonus.
4x Ogre II = 4 * 1.92 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 24 * 2 = 506.88 thermal dps. No replacements. No small flight of drones. Negligible backup dps from turrets. Very, very, short operational range.
What I'm asking for is the drone bay to be increased so that it can accept backup drones. The dps will increase with merely 126.72 for a total of 633.6 - easily offsetting that there is no capability for damage mods on this damage!
However, the most important aspect is the backup drones. You can't load/unload drones from cargo to drone bay, if you could it wouldn't be such a terrible LARGE issue.
You do realize that with drones alone the myrmidon outdamages a hurricane? And that is with 3 gyrostab IIs. There, hurricane now has 3 less lows, only one highslot, and 4 meds to your 5.
Your post is absolutely ridiculous. With 5 ogre IIs a myrmindon would outdamage a tempest with autocannons and 2-3 gyro IIs. And outrange it.
You don't NEED damage mods. And you're forgetting that you an still put turrets on the ship for even more damage.
I updated post. You should read it. I'm not beyond correction, you know ;) - What am I listening to? |
James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.10.24 19:59:00 -
[75]
I'd like to see some of the DPS graphs for the Tier 2 BC as well. Minmatar pilots are getting a awesome gunboat (7 turrets), Caldari are getting a awesome missile platfrom (7 launchers), I havn't looked at the Amarr (I dont fly their ships), and Gallente are getting??? (a halfway drone, turret, NOS ship?) I would actually prefer, if for balance issues, CCP drop a turret and give us the 250m3 drone bay, since most Gallente pilots love their drones on DRONE BOATS. If a majority of my DPS comes from drones, so be it, if it means I can use heavies on something other then a Domi or Ishtar, and it only costs 30 million. I'll give up a turret for the extra drone space.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:00:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 20:02:58
Originally by: lofty29
Gallente have hardly been strong. It's been the dominix, vexor + eos that have given that impression. Drones, nos, ecm = win. Now that ECM is half as good (THANK GOD!!!) they'll go down in a synch
Be honest. You know gallente have superior ships in the megathron and the ishkur (or is it ishtar - i always get them confused... the hac, anyway) too. And the ecm nerf hurts ships that cant compete with the dps, like the Tempest. It doesnt hurt the Megathron one bit.
If the game was balanced, you would see every race being represented equal here. Its currently not. Most people play caldari or gallente. Its not random, its a choice they make. Wouldnt Eve be a much more interesting and fun game if all races had their strengths and weaknesses at every range? There shouldnt be one best race for most of the situations, because then Eve is no better than WoW with its shadow priests and warlocks. Paper, meet rock... this game should be more than that. I hope it still is.
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Alhambra Rainwalker
Caldari Rosa Alba
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:04:00 -
[77]
That damage looks iffy...
Drone damage calculator at http://www.evegeek.com/drones.php gives one Ogre II with maximum skills dps of 95.04. So four of them is 380.16.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:05:00 -
[78]
Ishtar.
And ECM nerf hurts those who cannot fit a decent (non-nosdom of ECM doooom) set up on their drone ships most of all.
I believe an integral part of the AC (and pulse) problem is, as indicated several places, that warp scrambling and warp disruptors are too short ranged. Can't hold people if you're outside 20km unless you fork out for a faction disruptor.
AND NO, BRINGING MORE PEOPLE ISNT A GOOD SOLUTION to a problem that can be solved by decent game balance. - What am I listening to? |
Woopie
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:05:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 24/10/2006 19:57:22 Edited by: Ithildin on 24/10/2006 19:54:16 It is supposed to make up for the two-three missing turrets and the missing turret bonus.
4x Ogre II = 4 * 1.92 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 24 * 2 = 506.88 thermal dps. No replacements. No small flight of drones. Negligible backup dps from turrets. Very, very, short operational range.
...
Uhh, you forgot the 10% drone bonus and to divide with the rof, would be kinda odd if it had higher dps with 4 drones than domi with 5.
24*4*2*1.92*1.5*1.25*1.1/2 = 380.16 dps.
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Ipod
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:05:00 -
[80]
Its time to nerf gallante, they are overpowered in every way shape and form. And all they do is try to keep other races down by posting anti-other race replies.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:06:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Ithildin Edited by: Ithildin on 24/10/2006 19:57:22 Edited by: Ithildin on 24/10/2006 19:54:16 It is supposed to make up for the two-three missing turrets and the missing turret bonus.
4x Ogre II = 4 * 1.92 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 24 * 2 = 506.88 thermal dps. No replacements. No small flight of drones. Negligible backup dps from turrets. Very, very, short operational range.
...
Uhh, you forgot the 10% drone bonus and to divide with the rof, would be kinda odd if it had higher dps with 4 drones than domi with 5.
24*4*2*1.92*1.5*1.25*1.1/2 = 380.16 dps.
****. How could I miss that!? DOH! - What am I listening to? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:09:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 20:10:04
Originally by: Ithildin Ishtar.
And ECM nerf hurts those who cannot fit a decent (non-nosdom of ECM doooom) set up on their drone ships most of all.
I believe an integral part of the AC (and pulse) problem is, as indicated several places, that warp scrambling and warp disruptors are too short ranged. Can't hold people if you're outside 20km unless you fork out for a faction disruptor.
AND NO, BRINGING MORE PEOPLE ISNT A GOOD SOLUTION to a problem that can be solved by decent game balance.
Yes, the ecm nerf hurts the dominix too. But you cant say that that ship wasnt a damn pwnmobile... you have to agree with me to some extent that it was. At least alot of people felt it was.
Anyway, I think longer range warp disruptors is needed too (30 km), because that would allow ships to stay outside gallente optimal if they are fast enough. Then I wouldnt have problems with gallente pwning 0-15 km, if minmatar could pwn 15-30 km for example. Thats one kind of balance that would improve Eve I think.
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Skraelingz
Gallente Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:10:00 -
[83]
you still cant deny this ship is rather weaksauce compared to the rest. it looks like it was halfway developed by the gallente then forgotten.
sir we have 8 highslots ready on the new ship. great! but we are lazy so you can only fit 5 guns since we dont wanna wire the rest up...
so hows that drone bay coming along gentlemen? well not to good sir we ran out of metal so we just kinda rounded it off and fudged it a little.
another thing i dont get... every other bc gets more high turret hardpoints and low slots compared to this thing wtf? is this balanced by our marginally higher mid slot count (coughlaughcough).
sad. ill stick to my 4m vexor for now. -----------------------------------------------
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James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:15:00 -
[84]
Amarr = Awesome armor tank, lots of lasers with great tracking Caldari = Long range missile kings, Electronics Minmatar = Quick strike (speed), zero cap use weapons (various damage types) Gallente = Close range blasters, Drones
So when selecting tactics to go along with your ship choice you have to realize where your strengths are. Thats what makes this game great. But to say that Gallente shouldn't be deadly at close range is to say that the Gallente Navy combat doctrine is wrong. Gallente ships are designed to have a medium tank and overwhlem their opponents before their own tank fails. Blasters and Drones.
The only reason that Gallente are considered overpowered at close range is that NOS needs to be removed form the game (or at least fixed), as well as the sig radius problems of halfways ships fixed [Destroyer/BC]. And ECM is severly broken ATM. Fix those 2 issues and Gallente ships are just about equal to other races when used as intended.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:18:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 20:19:22
Originally by: James Draekn Amarr = Awesome armor tank, lots of lasers with great tracking Caldari = Long range missile kings, Electronics Minmatar = Quick strike (speed), zero cap use weapons (various damage types) Gallente = Close range blasters, Drones
So when selecting tactics to go along with your ship choice you have to realize where your strengths are. Thats what makes this game great. But to say that Gallente shouldn't be deadly at close range is to say that the Gallente Navy combat doctrine is wrong. Gallente ships are designed to have a medium tank and overwhlem their opponents before their own tank fails. Blasters and Drones.
The only reason that Gallente are considered overpowered at close range is that NOS needs to be removed form the game (or at least fixed), as well as the sig radius problems of halfways ships fixed [Destroyer/BC]. And ECM is severly broken ATM. Fix those 2 issues and Gallente ships are just about equal to other races when used as intended.
The minmatar advantage of quick strike isnt really valid when it comes to autocannons. They need to be able to stay in the fight. Thats one reason I dont feel that gallente should pwn everything up close, because you can never get a good game balance if they do and you at the same time CANT choose to fight them at another range.
If the game allowed minmatar to dictate range on the battleship level as well as it currently does on the cruiser level, then I would be happy. If a gallente ships gets close to me, I die, fine. But if I manage to keep at range, they die.
Maybe it all boils down to warp disruptor range in the end.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:19:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 20:10:04
Originally by: Ithildin Ishtar.
And ECM nerf hurts those who cannot fit a decent (non-nosdom of ECM doooom) set up on their drone ships most of all.
I believe an integral part of the AC (and pulse) problem is, as indicated several places, that warp scrambling and warp disruptors are too short ranged. Can't hold people if you're outside 20km unless you fork out for a faction disruptor.
AND NO, BRINGING MORE PEOPLE ISNT A GOOD SOLUTION to a problem that can be solved by decent game balance.
Yes, the ecm nerf hurts the dominix too. But you cant say that that ship wasnt a damn pwnmobile... you have to agree with me to some extent that it was. At least alot of people felt it was.
Anyway, I think longer range warp disruptors is needed too (30 km), because that would allow ships to stay outside gallente optimal if they are fast enough. Then I wouldnt have problems with gallente pwning 0-15 km, if minmatar could pwn 15-30 km for example. Thats one kind of balance that would improve Eve I think.
In the case of the Dominix I can only agree, with regards to the ECM-Nos-Dom setups.
If you kitted the Dominix the way it was intended (blasters and tackling for solo play), it wasn't top predator any more, though, and was in some serious need of powergrid. - What am I listening to? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:20:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ithildin
If you kitted the Dominix the way it was intended (blasters and tackling for solo play), it wasn't top predator any more, though, and was in some serious need of powergrid.
I have to agree. I dont see dominix having much of a chance vs a Raven now after the ecm nerf for example...we'll see.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Arushia
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:20:00 -
[88]
What's strange is that the model seems to have 6 turret mounts, but the ship only has 5.
I'd much rather have a drone HP and damage bonus than a drone bay size bonus. It seems CCP wants this ship used with 2 sets of mediums, not 4/5 of a set of heavies.
I'd also much rather have a tanking bonus on it than a bonus to its secondary weapons (turrets). Tough i do like passive tankins bonuses (resists) better than active ones, but passive armor bonuses seem to be an Amarr thing.
As another poster has said, please do give us a rig for drone bay size. Would love to squeeze 5 mediums in an Ishkur.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:22:00 -
[89]
Well, BC's are supposed to sit halfway between cruisers and BS's, right?
100m3 drone bay is too small.
The domi has 375m3, and the Vexor 75m3.
150m3 would be balanced without being overpowered. When pilots are faced with a hostile Myrm-thingy they WILL be killing the drones.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:23:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Ithildin
If you kitted the Dominix the way it was intended (blasters and tackling for solo play), it wasn't top predator any more, though, and was in some serious need of powergrid.
I have to agree. I dont see dominix having much of a chance vs a Raven now after the ecm nerf for example...we'll see.
Actually the Blasterdomi is currently the highest raw DPS ship in the game.
But yeah, its not easy to fit, to say the least.
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