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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:41:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Soooo Many
I agree with this idea. Less blobbing, Less lag.
So clear a statement, so little clue. Gang size has no relation, of any kind, to the formation of a blob and/or lag. What this means to us, I paraphrase myself: So many clear statements from those with little clue. Sit back and let's test, discover, and learn wth is going on before we speculate and make fools of ourselves.
Still screwing the dictionary, baby. One long word at a time!
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Smithicus
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:51:00 -
[32]
Alright, lets say they don't touch gang sizes, because i think even CCP knows that would REALLY bug people.
So lets consider these skills an addition to the leadership skills and bonuses that you would associate with command ships and BCs with gang warfare modules. Not required in a gang, but they sure do come in handy....
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I'd imagine that it'll work somewhat like the following.... Lets say you have someone who has fleet command 2. They form a gang and in the gang window create 2 wings. Control is most likely a modification of how the fighters/drone grouping system works right now in the overview.
So they can form a "wing" (like a fighter/drone group) as well as squadrons inside the wing. They can probably drag gang members into the groups for assignment, and also possibly give someong control of the Squadron or Gang on a per "group/subgroup" basis.
At least, that's how i see it going down because it's just an extension of existing game mechanics and doesn't need to modify basic gangs but allows for a lot more cooridnation in large scale battles if you have someone with these skills.
Basically, fleet commander handles the "whos in what squadron, which squadrons are in each wing, and who commands at each level" and that leaves the running of the actual groups to their respective leaders...
"gang" controls like warp-to and "gang warp" could be restricted to the "tree" level of the respective users (squad members can warp to each other, squad leader can warp to other squads, wing commander can warp entire squads, etc ad nauseum)
So, this creates a nice roll for the fleet command or carrier pilots who shouldn't be in the actual fight, and most likely have a lot of the skills required for these new goodies.
Plus it could be used to filter gang bonuses. If your FC has the skills it filters down to everyone, but if you got a guy in your squad who's got good leadership skills, it doesn't apply to another squad or wing...
But then again, i could be COMPLETELY wrong =) |
FireFoxx80
Caldari
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.24 21:02:00 -
[33]
I hope it limits gang sizes, will certainly reduce blobs.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.24 21:16:00 -
[34]
if it would limit the gangsize it is only a matter of time until enough people have the sufficient skills to run 250 man gangs and if the number 250 is not a blob i donŠt want to know what you actually call a blob :-p
just in case this really limits the size of gangs:
what happens if the pilot with ganglead drops due to ctd eg?
or does it mean that i am not allowed to pass over ganglead to somebody who is not skilled in leadership?
i would really love some clarification about this from a dev in charge...
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta
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Posted - 2006.10.24 22:13:00 -
[35]
Why would that reduce blobbing?
Just because 1000 people will have 4 different gang chats? You could open a new channel and give the 4 leaders the password...
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Outa Rileau
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Posted - 2006.10.24 22:23:00 -
[36]
Finally... another ****ty specialization for my deteis attributes...
Of course, everyone flies command ships now anyways 
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Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000 
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Xthril Ranger
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.24 22:51:00 -
[37]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
I hope it limits gang sizes, will certainly reduce blobs.
Gang size limits will not dictate how many will turn up to defend their home systems. And you dont need everyone in same gang to do fleet fights.
you'll never jump alone |
Outa Rileau
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:03:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: FireFoxx80
I hope it limits gang sizes, will certainly reduce blobs.
Gang size limits will not dictate how many will turn up to defend their home systems. And you dont need everyone in same gang to do fleet fights.
This might however seriously cripple movement. You will need a bkm set for each gang, and if you want to warp to member, you need a pilot to warp to for each gang... at that point warfare will become very confusing.
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Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:04:00 -
[39]
the leadership skill was always intended to increase maximum memberamount of a gang and always kept having that attribute in the database. It didnŠt work properly, so they changed it afaik.
Another probability would be:
the higher your skills, the more people/squads can profit from your gangskills. so if your are a commandship, only the people "below" you profiting from your skills, so youŠd have to decide which position to take in the tree.
Just my few suggestions.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:06:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Cerberal
So all of us that trained for command ships are now official gang leaders?
I like this.
IMO handling gang invites is 4tL. Im not stoked.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Outa Rileau
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: FireFoxx80
I hope it limits gang sizes, will certainly reduce blobs.
Gang size limits will not dictate how many will turn up to defend their home systems. And you dont need everyone in same gang to do fleet fights.
This might however seriously cripple movement. You will need a bkm set for each gang, and if you want to warp to member, you need a pilot to warp to for each gang... at that point warfare will become very confusing.
Not going to effect fleet sizes. It will definatly seperate the good fleet commanders from the bad ones.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Xianthar
Sha Kharn Corp
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:25:00 -
[42]
its not going to stop blobing, people will still be talking on TS, now you just have to have multiple "drivers" listening to the FC to know when to gang warp. create a chat channel for the entire group and your pretty much back to how it is now.
if its an attempt at stopping blob warfare its a half arsed one.
-xian
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rgreat
Gallente
OEG
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:38:00 -
[43]
/me happy to have high charisma attribute...
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Synapse Archae
Amarr
Solarflare Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.25 04:34:00 -
[44]
Rofl no one is even reading.
Even if there is a gang limit, the max is 500. A fleet that size will crash the node. Even BoB/ASCN fights arent going over 250 to a side.
We're a long way from putting a 500 man fleet on the field.
---------------------------------------------
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur |
DeAtH2ThESoUtH
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Posted - 2006.10.25 07:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Maestro Ulv
If it gives people a break from blobs for a while, hey [:D
mmm, blob's - as in roaming? What game have u been playing?
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Ranis Kirahn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 07:17:00 -
[46]
I think this is excellent. For your basic small gang, you have to spend maybe 3 hours training Leadership to 2...possibly even *gasp* 3. But this actually gives leadership a much better defined role and yes, it does hurt those who have massively specialized. It means that it hurts not to have specialists in a variety of fields. Since when did this idea ever surprise anyone? I personally am ecstatic about this change, it sets up functionality and structure for fleets to be organized on the squad and wing level, allowing for better communication lines to be drawn and better leadership effects to take hold.
In otherwords, it will be a structure that would begin to allow tactics to play a larger part in engagements.
Of course, this assumes that I'm interpreting the data correctly, which I hope for.
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Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 07:20:00 -
[47]
Originally by: grizouh
just in case this really limits the size of gangs:
what happens if the pilot with ganglead drops due to ctd eg?
or does it mean that i am not allowed to pass over ganglead to somebody who is not skilled in leadership?
i would really love some clarification about this from a dev in charge...
I bet exactly that to be the intended point:
having a gang on a modular basis will only require 9 gangmember status to be displayed, reducing lag. If fleetcommander drops out, he will only have to invite the wingcommanders to his gang instead of every member. It will decrease difficulty of handling gangs a lot, if it really turns out to be like I believe it will turn out.
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Cpt Abestos
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.25 07:27:00 -
[48]
Even if funconality isn't "lost" if you train a bunch of skills to 5 is still another fscking timesink just to have things work like they did before. its not like it will change blobing it will just make it slightly more inconvient but you will still have 1 "fleet" and 100% of the lag.
That said if this still alows for the current type of gangs and merly adds new features to thoese willing to form up "squadrons" etc and train the skills then I'm all for it.
It's great being Amarr ain't it?
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Metacannibal
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 08:06:00 -
[49]
i dont really see the problem with the change, it changes VERY little for most players.
- empire people have little to no reason to form gangs bigger than 30, something you can basically have with 1 week of training (leadership to 5 and wing stuff to 2)
- 0.0 people who have a reason to run bigger ops than that VERY often have leadership at 5+ anyway because they often fall into the 10/10 and/or command ship category, training a rank 8 skill to level 4 for 40 or 50 sized gangs is usually "not a big deal".
if the blob is bigger, that is solved easily aswell, just split support and t1+t2 snipers into different gangs, given that ascn is usually the bloody blob to common perception and knowing that the upcoming gangsize changes wont affect ascn ops too much, i dont understand all the fuss here.
sometimes people whine for the sake of whining.
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Kokuyoku
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Posted - 2006.10.25 09:48:00 -
[50]
I happened to be in the test channel when they evaluated the latest stress test, and gang sized DOES considerably influence lag. There's a lot of information crossing between gang members, and if it works as i think it does(namely that everyone sends his info to all other members) then the total number of sends is n*(n-1). That's a LOT of information even in a mid sized gang...
So this should really decrease overall lag...
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Turkantho
Asgard Schiffswerften
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:07:00 -
[51]
didn't read the whole thread, but one thing you should think about:
This wont stop blobbing, even if it limits gang size you will have 2-3 gangs, sure it's a bit harder (read slower) to move around using instas since more ppl need them but this wont stop blobbing in the slightest.
________
Asgar[D]Š |
Yamaeda
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:19:00 -
[52]
I've said many times that charisma is an underused ability and that some new skills should take use of it to improve it's value. This seems to be those. As to their effect i cant say, but i like the idea.
/Y
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CyberChick
Black Knight Buccaneers
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.10.25 19:34:00 -
[53]
The bigger the blob the more investment ccp has to make in fixing lag, and purchasing new hardware to stop customers whinning about how laggy it is with 300 vs 300 fleets, only for ccp to upgrade then repeat the cycle when 400 vs 400 becomes the norm.
Max gang sizes will resolve this, and setting up wings of gang members will only be beneficial for fleet organisation.
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Ralus
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 19:53:00 -
[54]
The only problem I can see for this system is the initial setting up of the whole gang structure, your going to have to:
assign squads with complimentary ships that function at the same range, so stick all the pests in one squad, all the intys in another, all the cruisers in another, all the interdictors in another etc...
Remember your going to have to find leaders for each individual squad, and once all the squads are formed your going to have to find a wing leader, and then rinse and repeat with another wing until you have a fleets worth.
If you can do cool stuff like give the squads a formation option, and the wing leaders an menu like the drone command menu showing all his squads and give him the ability to remote warp them to objects then it should make an enjoyable change to combat, but tbh only time will tell with this change.
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Smithicus
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Posted - 2006.10.25 20:16:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ralus
The only problem I can see for this system is the initial setting up of the whole gang structure, your going to have to:
assign squads with complimentary ships that function at the same range, so stick all the pests in one squad, all the intys in another, all the cruisers in another, all the interdictors in another etc...
Remember your going to have to find leaders for each individual squad, and once all the squads are formed your going to have to find a wing leader, and then rinse and repeat with another wing until you have a fleets worth.
If you can do cool stuff like give the squads a formation option, and the wing leaders an menu like the drone command menu showing all his squads and give him the ability to remote warp them to objects then it should make an enjoyable change to combat, but tbh only time will tell with this change.
Ever been in a multi corp or large scale gang with 20+ people?
In the CURRENT system you usually don't have gangs where everyone has the same range / etc, so this allows for organization if you want it.
Having a gang with 30 people in it spread across multiple systems or different areas of the same system is confusing enough when you have tacklers, hitters, ecm and scouts all in the same gang, at least with the new system you can divy up groups and not have to worry about someone gang warping ALL of your fleet when you just want a few guys to move off.
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Ralus
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 21:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Smithicus
Originally by: Ralus
The only problem I can see for this system is the initial setting up of the whole gang structure, your going to have to:
assign squads with complimentary ships that function at the same range, so stick all the pests in one squad, all the intys in another, all the cruisers in another, all the interdictors in another etc...
Remember your going to have to find leaders for each individual squad, and once all the squads are formed your going to have to find a wing leader, and then rinse and repeat with another wing until you have a fleets worth.
If you can do cool stuff like give the squads a formation option, and the wing leaders an menu like the drone command menu showing all his squads and give him the ability to remote warp them to objects then it should make an enjoyable change to combat, but tbh only time will tell with this change.
Ever been in a multi corp or large scale gang with 20+ people?
In the CURRENT system you usually don't have gangs where everyone has the same range / etc, so this allows for organization if you want it.
Having a gang with 30 people in it spread across multiple systems or different areas of the same system is confusing enough when you have tacklers, hitters, ecm and scouts all in the same gang, at least with the new system you can divy up groups and not have to worry about someone gang warping ALL of your fleet when you just want a few guys to move off.
mmm I'm not arguing that it'll make life so much easier once its set up and running its just the getting there that's the problem, I've been in gangs where some people have trouble just getting into the gang and team speak server to begin with, I dread to think what trying to get them into the correct squad would be like.
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May Long
Caldari
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:04:00 -
[57]
has anyone thought that maybe the command tiers will give bonuses to everyone underneath them?
_________________
Live long a prosper many times. . .a good sig pending >_> |
Kokuyoku
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Posted - 2006.10.26 06:22:00 -
[58]
The testing of the new system hasn't begun yet, so only the devs know, and it doesn't seem like they'll tell... :P And AFAIK the new system will REPLACE the old one...
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Smithicus
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:08:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ralus
mmm I'm not arguing that it'll make life so much easier once its set up and running its just the getting there that's the problem, I've been in gangs where some people have trouble just getting into the gang and team speak server to begin with, I dread to think what trying to get them into the correct squad would be like.
Thats why you make sure everyone listens to the new "fleet commander" and then they just force em into the right squad.. "dont like it? Sucks to be you" :P
The one MAJOR issue i see with this, now that i've thought about it.. what happens when your FC gets a pretty CTD or has to leave? Say goodbye to your pretty pyramid org unless you have someone with similar skills... oh the chaos as the commander goes down.. "We're not readddyyyyy!"  |
grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.27 09:36:00 -
[60]
Just on a sidenote
they renamed the old leadership skill "squadron command" to "warfare link specialist", prolly to prevent missunderstandings with the new gangsystem skills.
but i still canŠt train wing command as it is still not available in market on sisi...
http://www.grizouh.fotm.de/squadron.jpg
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