Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 .. 23 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
To mare
Advanced Technology
404
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 09:24:50 -
[421] - Quote
Cardano Firesnake wrote:I must say that the Svipul is far more powerful than the Confessor. These changes will make the gap bigger.. It is a shame that the confessor is more beautiful than the Svipul. omg one minmatar ship that doesnt suck, must nerf it quick |
prolix travail
Blue Mountain Trails
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 13:20:36 -
[422] - Quote
Ive played around with these ships on sisi and have to say that the nerfs do have a noticable affect on 10mn ab ftis. You can still fit a 10mn ab but it usually means having to upgrade a fitting rig to t2 and use at least one more fitting mod/rig. So you lose tank/damage or both as well as the slower speed and agility.
On the svipul the loss of agility feels pretty significant, even more so in defense or sharpshooter mode. i've been rethinking fitting a 10mn ab on a svipul as the speed/agility of a mwd is that much better, and the extra fitting room means you can do some heavy cap warfare with 2 utility highs and make use of the 4th mid for cap booster.
|
Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
505
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 14:06:57 -
[423] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! Big thanks to everyone who has posted feedback about the first round of changes. We agree with the point that some of you were bringing up, that these first round of changes are a bit too harsh on long range weapon fits compared to short range weapon fits. A certain amount of added fitting pain for long range fits will be necessary, but long range weapon viability is a key part of the character of the tactical destroyers and it would be a shame to limit that more than absolutely necessary. So we've come up with a second iteration of these changes, using a slightly more invasive set of adjustments. To reduce the impact of extremely high fittings while continuing to keep long range weapons competitive with short range weapons we are proposing a change to the turrets of the Confessor and Svipul. Both would lose 2 turrets (going to 4) but gain a new +50% damage role bonus to keep DPS the same. This allows us to reduce fittings significantly without harming long range fits as much, as the weapons will make a smaller percentage of the overall Powergrid and CPU consumption of the ships. These new versions also include a mass reduction for the Svipul (which is how we directly impact the power of oversized prop modules) and a bit more speed reduction. Material requirement changes remain the same as in version one. Confessor:
- New Role Bonus: +50% Small Energy Turret Damage
- Highslots: 6 (-1)
- Turrets: 4 (-2)
- Powergrid: 62 (-18)
- CPU: 180 (-10)
- Max Velocity: 235 (-45)
- Mass: 2,000,000kg (-400,000)
- Inertia: 2.7 (+0.55)
- Shield Recharge Time: 800s (+175s)
- Capacitor Recharge Time: 320s (+20s)
Svipul:
- New Role Bonus: +50% Small Projectile Turret Damage
- Highslots: 6 (-1)
- Turrets: 4 (-2)
- Powergrid: 59 (-19)
- CPU: 205 (-10)
- Max Velocity: 230 (-60)
- Mass: 1,500,000 (-400,000)
- Inertia: 3.5 (+0.85)
- Shield Recharge Time: 800s (+175s)
- Capacitor Recharge Time: 240s (+15s)
Material Requirements (unchanged): +1 to each of Electromechanical Interface Nexus, Fullerene Intercalated Sheets, Optimized Nano-engines, Reconfigured Subspace Calibrator, Self-Assembling Nanolattice, Warfare Computation Core Like I said above, thanks to everyone who has participated in this feedback thread so far. We're very interested in hearing your thoughts about this second iteration of the changes. 2 utility highs and a sensible fitting balance? What the hell is this, sensible balance week? Goddamn, GO FOZZIE GO!!! |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
325
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 14:50:13 -
[424] - Quote
Yes, the readiness with which they've responded to the issues can be applauded.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3244
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 16:46:27 -
[425] - Quote
i really can't comment on the new changes before being able to test them on SISI.
just a few things which can be said without testing them: - 4 weapons means you can overheat longer - 2 utility highs are kinda cool, reminds me on the flycatcher before the second rebalance which basically made it a better heretic for all usecases - svipul is still the stronger ship
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
|
dark man Skord
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 20:19:42 -
[426] - Quote
Personally, I wish the speed of the svipul wouldn't be nerfed too much. My current load out looses almost 500 m/s. I do enjoy going fast. I understand that there is a problem with it when people use 10mm afterburners, but I'm not one of those players and I feel that the speed nerf is unjust. Regardless, it'll still be one of my favorite ships to fly after the nerf, but a whole lot less favorite. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
632
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 20:35:19 -
[427] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:i really can't comment on the new changes before being able to test them on SISI.
just a few things which can be said without testing them: - 4 weapons means you can overheat longer - 2 utility highs are kinda cool, reminds me on the flycatcher before the second rebalance which basically made it a better heretic for all usecases - svipul is still the stronger ship
Oh man, do your self a favor and don't even fit a Confessor
If only somebody would have told someone that they overnerfed the Amarr for no reason - wait I did.
All hail the barbariens?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3244
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 00:13:17 -
[428] - Quote
oh changes are already on SISI - didn't know that.
Just a heads up: a bug of the fitting window basically forces you to repackage your old t3 before changing the fit. because no matter what you do it will tell you you have too many turrets fit. (its off by 1)
feedback/observations: - 10mn nerf is quite significant. Acceleration, agility and the amount the ship slows down if you change direction are noticeably worse - fitting them will require empty utility highs and 2 grid rigs in many cases (only tested the confessor)
i predict it will be quite difficult to use 10mn fits in small scale pvp, unless all you are doing is to fly in one direction and hope something is chasing after you. So if that was the goal i can see that it will succeed.
Confessor is hit hardest since the 10mn AB was a good replacement for the lack of a web in the brawling variants due to the slot layout.
i would test more if the bug in the fitting window would not be there
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
|
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
389
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 02:16:44 -
[429] - Quote
prolix travail wrote:Ive played around with these ships on sisi and have to say that the nerfs do have a noticable affect on 10mn ab ftis. You can still fit a 10mn ab but it usually means having to upgrade a fitting rig to t2 and use at least one more fitting mod/rig. So you lose tank/damage or both as well as the slower speed and agility.
On the svipul the loss of agility feels pretty significant, even more so in defense or sharpshooter mode. i've been rethinking fitting a 10mn ab on a svipul as the speed/agility of a mwd is that much better, and the extra fitting room means you can do some heavy cap warfare with 2 utility highs and make use of the 4th mid for cap booster.
Just want to say that feedback like this is awesome. Clear, concise, and actually responds to how the changes affected the feel of the ship :)
dark man Skord wrote:Personally, I wish the speed of the svipul wouldn't be nerfed too much. My current load out looses almost 500 m/s. I do enjoy going fast. I understand that there is a problem with it when people use 10mm afterburners, but I'm not one of those players and I feel that the speed nerf is unjust. Regardless, it'll still be one of my favorite ships to fly after the nerf, but a whole lot less favorite.
Edit: Actually, mulling over it at home, I have come to the conclusion I'll just stop playing. I don't pay companies to mess with my fun because losers in other part of the game can't cope with the fact they're getting outplayed. I keep forgetting CCP has a history of catering to whiny losers.
The speed nerf is because these ships massively out-class their closest competition when you take their combination of speed, fire-power, and tank as a sum whole. They're still competitive, and their over-heating bonus even gives them a pretty significant advantage, but they're not longer hands-down better.
I suspect you've enjoyed the ships in-part because they have been over-powered compared to almost anything Frigate or Destroyer sized that they come across, and while it sucks to lose something like that it's hardly "catering to whiners" nor is using a flatly better ship "outplaying" someone. There's a reason 10-man ganks on solo ships end with "outplayed" said sarcastically in local. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
125
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 06:01:21 -
[430] - Quote
I was hoping these changes would also address the performance gap between the Svipul and the Confessor. Or did you actually take the Confessor's better aesthetic design as a balancing factor? |
|
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
390
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 06:04:54 -
[431] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:I was hoping these changes would also address the performance gap between the Svipul and the Confessor. Or did you actually take the Confessor's better aesthetic design as a balancing factor?
Run the numbers and test some fits on SiSi. I think you'll find that if the performance gap isn't gone it's a lot smaller than it used to be, especially if you can managed a 10MN fit on the Confessor with the new fittings.
That said, where do you think it's lacking? |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
125
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 06:32:24 -
[432] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:I was hoping these changes would also address the performance gap between the Svipul and the Confessor. Or did you actually take the Confessor's better aesthetic design as a balancing factor? Run the numbers and test some fits on SiSi. I think you'll find that if the performance gap isn't gone it's a lot smaller than it used to be, especially if you can managed a 10MN fit on the Confessor with the new fittings. That said, where do you think it's lacking? 10mn fit nerf hurts Confessor more than Svipul since it needs it for range control. Svipul has other options if it doesn't fit a 10mn. Cap nerf hurts Confessor more as well, since it needs it to run every aspect of the ship - active tank/prop/guns/tackle. Most of the popular Svipul fits only require cap for prop mod and tackle (ASBs and autocannons for the rest). They now have the option to fit a nos to keep tackle or run double neuts. I understand that lasers are lasers and autocannons are autocannons but for small guns, the advantage of scorch is far less pronounced, especially if you're fighting in scram range and don't have any range control.
Basically I would keep the 10mn fitting nerf but the cap/agility nerf for the Confessor IMO was wholly unneeded. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
234
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 10:49:45 -
[433] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:The speed nerf is because these ships massively out-class their closest competition when you take their combination of speed, fire-power, and tank as a sum whole. They're still competitive, and their over-heating bonus even gives them a pretty significant advantage, but they're not longer hands-down better.
I suspect you've enjoyed the ships in-part because they have been over-powered compared to almost anything Frigate or Destroyer sized that they come across, and while it sucks to lose something like that it's hardly "catering to whiners" nor is using a flatly better ship "outplaying" someone. There's a reason 10-man ganks on solo ships end with "outplayed" said sarcastically in local.
If you don't like destroyers, say: "I don't like destroyers. They should be removed from the game." Hell, make a thread in this section with that as the OP. What you are doing now is pushing a narrative where destroyers should perform like frigates, but what you are failing to grasp or accept is this: DESTROYERS ARE NOT FRIGATES.
Spiders do not compete with flies. (The Caldari interdictor is actually named "Flycatcher".) Retrievers do not compete with Veldspar. Balancing a Panther or a Vargur to make a Hurricane or Drake "competitive" with it wouldn't make sense. Balancing a Svipul to make a Wolf or a Hawk competitive with it won't make sense to a lot of people.
You don't like Tech IIIs and want them nerfed into the ground. Fine. You don't like destroyers and want them nerfed into the ground. Fine. But, maybe try reading a little about what a frigate and destroyer are and do and it might make more sense why the hammer keeps beating nails. The real-world terms may not be perfectly analogous to what takes place in EVE, but neither are they perfectly irrelevant. Afterall, we call them space SHIPS. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
632
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 11:39:04 -
[434] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:I was hoping these changes would also address the performance gap between the Svipul and the Confessor. Or did you actually take the Confessor's better aesthetic design as a balancing factor? Run the numbers and test some fits on SiSi. I think you'll find that if the performance gap isn't gone it's a lot smaller than it used to be, especially if you can managed a 10MN fit on the Confessor with the new fittings. That said, where do you think it's lacking?
I can tell you where my Confessor is lacking - in everything!!
Sidenote: After the first lecture in college my professor said, "I told you this, you know this now." - after repeating all of highschool math in 90 minutes..
I have to admint that not everyone on Earth can see as far as I can, my aplogogies - I was born this way.
Moving on, the Confessor was nerfed so much that she is now an expensive gankmail waiting to happen. The agility nerf plus the capacitor nerf go so far over the top that she became unusable in one stroke.
If only someone could have prediceted this - oh wait-
Maybe most of the faction warfare folks are unaware of it but lowsec is not the only environment in EVE. There is more dangerous space out there where you have to make - pun intended - make tactical desicions on a whimp and since you can only go there in a small boat, you want the goodest(est) option available to you.
The tactical destroyer was your best option for those environments.
The matari one may be able to go there but the Amarr one got gutted, violated and made unusable - everywhere.
Can I has my skillpoints back now?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1693
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 14:12:51 -
[435] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:
Can I has my skillpoints back now?
No.
You invested SP in a ship that could **** all over any of it's intended target. Did you really expect it to stay that way? |
owl titanside
Imperial Dawn. Northern Associates.
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 15:07:17 -
[436] - Quote
Hey fozzie, Is there a way we can keep all 6 guns. But still do your whole nerf. I mean, dessies are big gun little ships, like there big bros the battlecruisers, all these guns and a hard time to fit sounds best .! Just sucks seeing half the nerf being -2 guns. Starting to sound more like a marauder than a Dessie duder.
Why not keep all za gunz bro and toss some fitting aside. Just feels right being in a DESTROYER and having a TON OF GUNZ but a prickly bugger to fit em! :D
I forget your exact words but, I remember you saying you wanted them to be fun, Well, why not step back and take a look at what people find pretty cool about these ships. -seem to be great tackle options -Dope solo pvp -mode swapping on the fly -fast and nimble -great cost vs loss ratio -tank is really nice for such a small ship.
And there is much more, but what id like to point out is that I notice a simularity between the little Dessie's and there cruiser buddys, they can adapt to a situation, but also fit what you feel is required for that situation. Is this nerf intended on taking that away from them? Or just to cramp some other peeps play styles.
Anyways ....KEEP THE GUNS DUDE ditch what you think isnt needed.
|
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc. Lasers Are Magic
24
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 18:26:07 -
[437] - Quote
The only "real" issue with the confessor is the lack of a tracking bonus. Every other t3 destroyer will have the ability to apply very well in brawling range. The svipul can get a tracking bonus by swapping modes. The slated jackdaw has a bazillion midslots for webs so rockets will always apply full damage, and I don't even want to talk about how massively _overpowered_ the bonuses on the hecate are.
The confessor basically auto-loses to any competent frigate pilot at close range, which I find very ironic for a destroyer. Well, that's not entirely true. The confessor will just be unable to apply and give the opponent's friends (or your friends) time to arrive and decide the battle. The speed nerf has put the confessor at a level where it is slower than several very common frigates (read: comet) when it has a 10mn ab and is under a web. I don't think this in and of itself is a bad thing, but the inability to then apply damage in a meaningful way is rather concerning to me.
Beam skirmish confessors are still quite decent. I have been on the test server and my current fit swaps a t2 locus coordinator for an ancillary current router, losing a rather significant amount of optimal range (from 63 km to 51km in sniper w/ aurora) in the process, but otherwise retaining its functionality and most of its speed. Unlinked the changes are noticeable, but linked the ship is practically the same as it was, sans some sniping range.
I will personally continue to fly the confessor as I think it is still one of the most fun ships in the game. However, I would love to see the ship get a tracking bonus somewhere (preferably in place of the cap bonus as most close range confessors fit a cap booster). Just to reiterate _every_ _other_ t3 destroyer is capable of/innately has a tracking/damage application bonus at close range. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
634
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 19:20:48 -
[438] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:elitatwo wrote:
Can I has my skillpoints back now?
No. You invested SP in a ship that could **** all over any of it's intended target. Did you really expect it to stay that way?
And you only ever see, what you want to see.
Did I mention that the Confessor was not the ship the kids where complaining about? Please show me where any wormhole resident where complaining about Confessors being overpowered.
Wait, are you saying you where not supposed to be light anti-tackle in cruiser online?
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
340
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 19:39:48 -
[439] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:The speed nerf is because these ships massively out-class their closest competition when you take their combination of speed, fire-power, and tank as a sum whole. They're still competitive, and their over-heating bonus even gives them a pretty significant advantage, but they're not longer hands-down better.
I suspect you've enjoyed the ships in-part because they have been over-powered compared to almost anything Frigate or Destroyer sized that they come across, and while it sucks to lose something like that it's hardly "catering to whiners" nor is using a flatly better ship "outplaying" someone. There's a reason 10-man ganks on solo ships end with "outplayed" said sarcastically in local. If you don't like destroyers, say: "I don't like destroyers. They should be removed from the game." Hell, make a thread in this section with that as the OP. What you are doing now is pushing a narrative where destroyers should perform like frigates, but what you are failing to grasp or accept is this: DESTROYERS ARE NOT FRIGATES. Spiders do not compete with flies. (The Caldari interdictor is actually named "Flycatcher".) Retrievers do not compete with Veldspar. Balancing a Panther or a Vargur to make a Hurricane or Drake "competitive" with it wouldn't make sense. Balancing a Svipul to make a Wolf or a Hawk competitive with it won't make sense to a lot of people. You don't like Tech IIIs and want them nerfed into the ground. Fine. You don't like destroyers and want them nerfed into the ground. Fine. But, maybe try reading a little about what a frigate and destroyer are and do and it might make more sense why the hammer keeps beating nails. The real-world terms may not be perfectly analogous to what takes place in EVE, but neither are they perfectly irrelevant. Afterall, we call them space SHIPS.
3/10
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg
Bienator II wrote:i really can't comment on the new changes before being able to test them on SISI.
just a few things which can be said without testing them: - 4 weapons means you can overheat longer - 2 utility highs are kinda cool, reminds me on the flycatcher before the second rebalance which basically made it a better heretic for all usecases - svipul is still the stronger ship
Regarding Confessor vs. Svipul, they should explain the following first,
Quote:Marian Devers wrote:I guess this is the place to ask why Svipul has 2x defensive bonuses (to armor and shield resists), and the confessor only has one (armor).
That is a fairly valid question. With both ships unfitted and in Defensive mode, Confessor has 4,976, and Svipul 5,658 EHP. Fitting a DC II gives the Confessor 7,055 EHP, and 7,475 for the Svipul. I think the answer may lie in the fact that Confessor's Signature reduction bonus is always being applied in Defensive mode, compared to MWD-use dependent second bonus on the Svipul. CCP Fozzie?
Amarr losing cap & tank superiority er'ryday. Svipul's also 17% faster.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Chrisfighter
Gladdebacher's
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 19:58:23 -
[440] - Quote
I still think the nerf in powergrid is too high.
A confessor fitted with a 10mn ab needs multiple ACR II rigs, not to mention the uselessness of its "new" utility slots. (because of too little pg to play with).
I can understand the need of some balance tweaks, but the pg nerf is too harsh. A reduction of 10-12 pg would be way better than -18 pg. (for the svipul, too)
Nur die harten kommen innen Garten, eh .... Eve xD
|
|
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
341
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 20:03:29 -
[441] - Quote
That's the whole point. Multiple ACRs, where? The following fit is derived from the data in the first post of the thread:
Quote:[Confessor, Nyaah] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Heat Sink II Centii A-Type Small Armor Repairer Centii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Scrambler II
Gatling Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Gatling Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Gatling Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Gatling Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II Small Nanobot Accelerator II Small Ancillary Current Router I
1308 / 1962
2179 / 3279 m/s
You're also slower than previously.
Learn2MWD
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
390
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 01:16:27 -
[442] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:10mn fit nerf hurts Confessor more than Svipul since it needs it for range control. Svipul has other options if it doesn't fit a 10mn. Cap nerf hurts Confessor more as well, since it needs it to run every aspect of the ship - active tank/prop/guns/tackle. Most of the popular Svipul fits only require cap for prop mod and tackle (ASBs and autocannons for the rest). They now have the option to fit a nos to keep tackle or run double neuts. I understand that lasers are lasers and autocannons are autocannons but for small guns, the advantage of scorch is far less pronounced, especially if you're fighting in scram range and don't have any range control.
Basically I would keep the 10mn fitting nerf but the cap/agility nerf for the Confessor IMO was wholly unneeded.
Thanks for the response.
So, this is somewhat just echoing what others have said but I think the performance difference between the Confessor and Svipul has never been that huge. Maybe 5 to 10% at best, that's just enough for one to beat the other in most cases (and be that much better than everything else).
If they left the Confessor alone in cap and agility we would almost certainly be back here again in a few months nerfing the Confessor. As things stand we have two more of these T3Ds to release so there's plenty of time and opportunity for CCP to tweak all four so they sit at about the same relative power level. If the relative status of the Confessor and Svipul doesn't change after these tweaks they'll probably dial back the cap nerf a bit or buff other stats slightly, though I expect the agility changes to stick.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:If you don't like destroyers, say: "I don't like destroyers. They should be removed from the game." Hell, make a thread in this section with that as the OP. What you are doing now is pushing a narrative where destroyers should perform like frigates, but what you are failing to grasp or accept is this: DESTROYERS ARE NOT FRIGATES. Spiders do not compete with flies. (The Caldari interdictor is actually named "Flycatcher".) Retrievers do not compete with Veldspar. Balancing a Panther or a Vargur to make a Hurricane or Drake "competitive" with it wouldn't make sense. Balancing a Svipul to make a Wolf or a Hawk competitive with it won't make sense to a lot of people. You don't like Tech IIIs and want them nerfed into the ground. Fine. You don't like destroyers and want them nerfed into the ground. Fine. But, maybe try reading a little about what a frigate and destroyer are and do and it might make more sense why the hammer keeps beating nails. The real-world terms may not be perfectly analogous to what takes place in EVE, but neither are they perfectly irrelevant. Afterall, we call them space SHIPS.
I do not dislike destroyers, nor have I ever said it. So please and thank you stop putting words in my mouth.
If you'd care to look at the relationship between the T1 Destroyers and T1 Frigates, T2 Destroyers and Frigates, or even the T2 Destroyers to the T1 Frigates you'll note that the stats tend to favor Damage on the Destroyers and Speed and tank (of one sort or another) on the Frigates. Thus the frigates still have plenty of room to do things the Frigates can't and thus room to out-play and destroy them.
Your entire argument is that "But destroyers are MEANT to be better than Frigates!!!" but that's silly and doesn't follow the stats of anything else in the game, nor does it even suggest that a Destroyer should be able to beat a frigate at its own game, which in this case is speed.
Using real life as an excuse for poor game balance is silly, two dimensional, and at the moment completely irrelevant to any sort of productive conversation going on in this thread. The T3Ds are getting nerfed and personally I'm quite looking forward to the changes. They should open up a lot more interesting choices in small ship solo and small gang combat as well as fleet ops. You can either deal with that or not, but either way please stop comparing Eve to any sort of real life naval combat.
Chrisfighter wrote:I still think the nerf in powergrid is too high.
A confessor fitted with a 10mn ab needs multiple ACR II rigs, not to mention the uselessness of its "new" utility slots. (because of too little pg to play with).
I can understand the need of some balance tweaks, but the pg nerf is too harsh. A reduction of 10-12 pg would be way better than -18 pg. (for the svipul, too)
Pretty sure making them make significant trade-offs for that 10MN AB is the point. It's a very very powerful thing, and like anything in Eve you shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too. At least not without beating the crap out of everyone else trying to take it first.
Relevant Dwarf Fortress comic, possibly NSFW |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
236
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 05:05:59 -
[443] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:I do not dislike destroyers . . .
If you'd care to look at the relationship between the T1 Destroyers and T1 Frigates, T2 Destroyers and Frigates, or even the T2 Destroyers to the T1 Frigates you'll note that the stats tend to favor Damage on the Destroyers and Speed and tank (of one sort or another) on the Frigates. Thus the frigates still have plenty of room to do things the Frigates can't and thus room to out-play and destroy them.
Your entire argument is that "But destroyers are MEANT to be better than Frigates!!!" but that's silly and doesn't follow the stats of anything else in the game, nor does it even suggest that a Destroyer should be able to beat a frigate at its own game, which in this case is speed.
Using real life as an excuse for poor game balance is silly, two dimensional, and at the moment completely irrelevant to any sort of productive conversation going on in this thread. The T3Ds are getting nerfed and personally I'm quite looking forward to the changes. They should open up a lot more interesting choices in small ship solo and small gang combat as well as fleet ops. You can either deal with that or not, but either way please stop comparing Eve to any sort of real life naval combat.
Destroyers are meant to be better than frigates . . . at combat. No one is arguing that a Confessor should out-probe an Anathema or out-mine a Prospect or out-tracking-disrupt a Sentinel. Even an assault frigate probably has better mobility than a Confessor in 2 of the 3 tactical modes. If people would use that superior mobility to their advantage, they would probably die less often, but there seems to be a severe misalignment of expectations. You are demanding trade-offs that tactical destroyer pilots should have to make to be competitive with frigates, but maybe what you SHOULD be doing is wondering what trade-offs a frigate pilot should have to make to be competitive in combat with a larger, more lethal, more resilient, more advanced, more expensive combat ship and it's skilled pilot.
If I were to judge EVE destroyers by real-world criteria, I would find them woefully inadequate since a real destroyer has the potential to 1-volley a carrier or even a small country. I think we are in agreement that that would be a ridiculous scenario in-game (even out-of-game, frankly). But, if YOU would care to look at the relationship between, say, a Talwar and a Rifter or Breacher, I think you may notice that the destroyer is significantly more imposing than its frigate cousins. Maybe that is purely accidental. Maybe I am reading these stats upside down or backwards or something. Or, maybe you're just having trouble adapting to a new paradigm, one where a single 3-foot pony-dwarf armed with just a magical dagger is no longer a match for an 8-foot, 500lbs., 3-headed, 6-armed, fire-breathing, thick-skinned, balls-of-adamantium ogre of instant death.
Speed has counters. Against some of those counters, rapid assault results in the rapid uncontrolled disintegration of your ship. Should that not be the case? |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
390
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 05:11:46 -
[444] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Destroyers are meant to be better than frigates . . . at combat.
I'm sorry but this just isn't the case in Eve at any level. Not at T1, not at T2, and, if you'll look at the incoming balance changes, not with these new T3 Destroyers compared to Tier 2 Frigates. At this point I'm not demanding anything, I'm fairly happy with the current state of the T3 Destroyers compared to the various T3 Frigates, so at this point I'm just pointing at the changes and saying "see, look, that's not how this is working" and you're pointing me at Wikipedia articles for real-life stuff and saying it somehow applies when it doesn't.
Personally I feel we've gone off topic for the original thread and won't be responding to this line of discussion further. You're welcome to think what you like about what Destroyers should or shouldn't be but that doesn't change what they are or what's good for the game. |
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 11:10:55 -
[445] - Quote
Can the OP change the topic name to something other than tweaks? Tweak refers to a minor change in the way a ship works; this is a nerfhammer/Major change to how this ships currently work in game and the topic's title should reflect this. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
351
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 12:42:05 -
[446] - Quote
They overshot with the initial concept and overbuffed them, hence they are being fixed now.
You may follow dark man Skord's example and biomass, if it hurts you so.
dark man Skord wrote:Personally, I wish the speed of the svipul wouldn't be nerfed too much. My current load out looses almost 500 m/s. I do enjoy going fast. I understand that there is a problem with it when people use 10mm afterburners, but I'm not one of those players and I feel that the speed nerf is unjust. Regardless, it'll still be one of my favorite ships to fly after the nerf, but a whole lot less favorite.
Edit: Actually, mulling over it at home, I have come to the conclusion I'll just stop playing. I don't pay companies to mess with my fun because losers in other part of the game can't cope with the fact they're getting outplayed. I keep forgetting CCP has a history of catering to whiny losers.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
|
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Snuggle Society Snuggle Society.
1642
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 13:07:24 -
[447] - Quote
I'm glad to see the reduction in hardpoints. Now I can fly an arty svipul without thinking "Hm, how much better would this be if I were using 10mn double MSABs with 200mm autocannons?" Hopefully this will put them at destroyer level stats instead of being super fast unscrammable cruisers that fit in small complexes.
New Player Placement Specialist and Scope Project FC.
Contact me for a free consultation.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1055
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 15:40:08 -
[448] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:Hopefully this will put them at destroyer level stats
get ready for disappointment |
Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 19:16:28 -
[449] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:I'm glad to see the reduction in hardpoints. Now I can fly an arty svipul without thinking "Hm, how much better would this be if I were using 10mn double MSABs with 200mm autocannons?" Hopefully this will put them at destroyer level stats instead of being super fast unscrammable cruisers that fit in small complexes. This is interesting question should they fit in small or not? T3 cruisers can't fit in med, so why should T3D fit in small. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
394
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 19:36:15 -
[450] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:I'm glad to see the reduction in hardpoints. Now I can fly an arty svipul without thinking "Hm, how much better would this be if I were using 10mn double MSABs with 200mm autocannons?" Hopefully this will put them at destroyer level stats instead of being super fast unscrammable cruisers that fit in small complexes. This is interesting question should they fit in small or not? T3 cruisers can't fit in med, so why should T3D fit in small.
They mentioned this in the original post on the Tactical Destroyers when they introduced the Confessor.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Tactical Destroyers will have access to all acceleration gates that allow passage of Interdictors. This includes FW Small Complexes. If we begin to see a need to restrict their access further in the future (for instance if they start completely dominating FW) we'll adjust their gate access as necessary.
Given this and the recent changes the answer seems to be that they want these to be competitive with, rather than dominant over, the various T2 frigate options available currently and if they can't manage that or they're too good at this specifically then their access will be restricted. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 .. 23 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |