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Attak Trioptimum Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:17:00 - [1] I know, I know. Teir 2 BC's aren't set in stone, nor are they better than HAC's in every respect. But we know what CCP is aiming for with them. HAC's generally are favored as small gang warfare ships, but it seems that the Teir 2 BC's are infringing on this role a bit with their overbearing cruiser-class firepower and the tankability of most of them. That, and with the agility buff some of the speed disadvantages are lessened as well. So, is this going to "kill" the HAC market, or are the differences between the two ship classes big enough to keep prices steady?
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:22:00 - [2] Big enough. Quite frankly, if the the BC's were going to kill the HAC market, they would have done so already. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:27:00 - [3] lowering the demand and consequently the prices a bit? probably 'kill' the HAC market? not a snowball chance's in hell Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:37:00 - [4] dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian
Culmen Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:38:00 - [5] i dont really see there going to be much change the new BCs are not significantly more power then the old BCs though they have more slots and hardpoints but not a corresponding increase in grid/cpu they are still significant slower then Hacs have much larger sig radii and also only get bonuses off BC levels rather then Cruiser and Hac levels so overall they might be more powerful then the tier 1 BCs and they might narrow the gap slightly between BC and HAC they arent going to be PWN mobiles _____________________________________________________
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc. E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Xianthar dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian May wanna check com ship prices --- Praxiteles Inc. is Recruiting!
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:45:00 - [7] Well HAC's have quite a few things going for them. They have tank, gank and mobility in a single package. Meanwhile, battlecruisers have tank and gank but they are spread between tier 1 and tier 2 (with exception of the Myrmidon which mysteriously has the Brutix's armor rep bonus) and are far from mobile. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Imode with exception of the Myrmidon which mysteriously has the Brutix's armor rep bonus cough Drake cough cough Brutix outdamages myrmidon - and some battleships cough ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.25 01:59:00 - [9] i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility.
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.29 05:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian
Susa Ou	Posted - 2006.10.29 06:23:00 - [11] Hac prices will drop simply because people will fly Tier 2 BCs more. Easier to train to, quicker to get into, and has a lot more punch and tank then the HAC. To be honest though, the HAC prices have been a tad high for quite some time. The only HAC that has the slightest chance of keeping its prices high is the Cereb and the Ish - the rest will drop like a rock (or I will simply not buy them).
byakuya006	Posted - 2006.10.29 06:45:00 - [12] Okay, maybe stupid question. Do Tier 2 BS have Armor and Shield resistances like HACs? I mean a HAC is super tough in the right hands.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.29 07:00:00 - [13] No. Stock Tech I resists. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
king jks	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:22:00 - [14] Edited by: king jks on 29/10/2006 08:24:53 I find it amusing that people talk about the HAC prices like they are supposed to be normal... fact is that HACs have a base price of 17mil so most people that sell vagas and cerbs for 250-300mil are getting a 2000% profit margin. If that isn't price gouged to hell and back I don't know what is (perhaps T2 sniper turrets, cloaks, and T2 cap chargers). I'm looking forward to seeing the prices of HACs drop if/when they do.
Jazz Bo Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:28:00 - [15] Originally by: king jks Edited by: king jks on 29/10/2006 08:24:53 I find it amusing that people talk about the HAC prices like they are supposed to be normal... fact is that HACs have a base price of 17mil so most people that sell vagas and cerbs for 250-300mil are getting a 2000% profit margin. That's the base mineral price. The cost of the components is much more. But yes, they do make a loooot of profit. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.10.29 10:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Xianthar dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian Nighthawk - 250M Sleipnir - 185M (gone up 50M in 2 weeks, and still rising) Astarte - 190M (Gone up a lot, still rising) Absolution - 130M (Not gone up, good) The reason I am not training for a command ship anymore tbh it the rediculous t2 market prices. When the next patch comes out, hopefully it will bring the sliepnir down to around 120-30M, which I will pay, Muninn is going up (130M now), this will go down, simply because the hurricane will be better for artillery, while the muninn will do less damage it still gets more tracking and range. Vagabond still keeps its nice role, the 80%+ of stabbed up vagabond pilots will weep, but its still fast, agile and damaging. Vagas are too expensive these days and I will not be paying for another in the event I lose mine, desipe all the training time I used. The new battlecruisers are good, but HACs are still very tanked and do a lot of dps, while remaining a cruiser, so I cannot see them making HACs go really down in price.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Xianthar dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian Recons are good for PvP. HACs are good for PvE too. Command ships are often better, but then they're also another month or two of training time.
Shin Jai	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:07:00 - [18] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Xianthar dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian Recons are good for PvP. HACs are good for PvE too. Command ships are often better, but then they're also another month or two of training time. With recent changes to Command Ships & The new Battlecruisers.. I think there will be alot of people trainin battlecruiser 5.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Shin Jai Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Xianthar dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian Recons are good for PvP. HACs are good for PvE too. Command ships are often better, but then they're also another month or two of training time. With recent changes to Command Ships & The new Battlecruisers.. I think there will be alot of people trainin battlecruiser 5. I know I will. Drake's been exactly what I've been wanting for ages. (Actually, it's better than I was hoping for). OK, so it's not a HAC, but it's a very cost effective PvP ship. IMO caldari are somewhat lacking in the solo PvP category, it's only really at the BS end that they get there, but a Drake looks like a good option to me.
Shin Jai	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:28:00 - [20] The Drake still won't be a solo ship.. Caldari just dont have any if many solo ships.
Vad3r	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:38:00 - [21] All i can say is rofl to the people who say caldari dont have a good solo ships, caracal with eccm in mids can pwn most cruisers, my passive tanked moa has 10k shield with good resists and then u add blasters, at frigate they got merlin and kestrel both dam fine solo and at bc ferox is teh ****znit and if u can afford a cerberus.. and then raven is awesome too, in fact caldari are probably joint top with gallente for solo atm and all u need is missile and engineering skills, if u cant fly caldari solo ur a nublar
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:43:00 - [22] I expect many ppl will discover Nighthawk as a nice missioning platform after the ROF chainge.
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:15:00 - [23] Originally by: Glarion Garnier I expect many ppl will discover Nighthawk as a nice missioning platform after the ROF chainge. Not better or cheaper than a Drake.
m0jo Fellow Space Traveller Association	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:17:00 - [24] Ok let me point it out to you why HAC's are still uber expensive over the rest of t2 bc, recon etc. The majority of HAC bpo's are owned by alliances who make them soley for their alliance which cuts off supply by a high degree. With the influx of newer players that hug empire the release of latter recon and cmd ship bpo's got away from the ebil alliance monkeys. They are now on the market at competitive pricing. Just take a look in most major hubs of how many HACs vs recons vs cmd ships that are on the market. The stock of HACs is very very low. So in short its all about supply and demand.
Skid Pants	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:28:00 - [25] I'm sure there will be a fall in the hac prices because the new BC's, are damn sexy. Plus with the agility boost, for anyone that hasn't been on the test server, bc's now feel more like 'heavy cruisers' rather than a fat bs like they did before. Some of the hacs which fit into a role, for example the vagabond, will remain relatively expensive im sure. But for slightly more sub-par hacs, munin for example, im already looking at mine in the hanger and thinking i'm just not going to fly you. The new bc's do pack a damn powerful punch. AC hurricane would eat a vagabond and munin for breakfast
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:40:00 - [26] Invention... it might not kill HAC market, but we will probably see more hacs in pvp again as people will probably try to invent stuff for self/corp, not for market unless in case of oversupply. Remove citadel torpedo flashes!
Scoundrelus Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:50:00 - [27] Zealot does more damage then the Harbinger. Sacrilege tanks better then the Harbinger. No I think HACs are fine. =============================================== We are Watching You.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Scoundrelus Zealot does more damage then the Harbinger. Sacrilege tanks better then the Harbinger. No I think HACs are fine. harbinger does more dmg then zealot
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:57:00 - [30] Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be. bar the fact that cerb has 5 launchers, not 6
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:11:00 - [31] Also cerb can't use drones, drake can use a few
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be. bar the fact that cerb has 5 launchers, not 6 DOH I sit corrected! I knew it had 6 high slots... didn't realize only 5 launchers. You are correct. Hmmm 5x1.5dmg = 7.5 launcher equiv (so yeah the Drake outguns it a bit.. though the cerb does have much longer range and maneuverability.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:18:00 - [33] Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight Also cerb can't use drones, drake can use a few That is something I always wondered about. Why would you take away the cerb's drone bay? Kinda baffled me.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be. bar the fact that cerb has 5 launchers, not 6 I'm quoting a whole page so I can write one line!
Scoundrelus Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:46:00 - [35] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Scoundrelus Zealot does more damage then the Harbinger. Sacrilege tanks better then the Harbinger. No I think HACs are fine. harbinger does more dmg then zealot And your basing your statement on what factual evidence exactly? The fact that it has more guns? Not diagreeing with you, just trying to find out why, frankly I'd be happy if it did more damage but I'm not much of a number cruncher and the Harbinger isn't on Quickfit. With a Zealot I get 25% bonus to Damage and Firing Rate with 5 Heavy Pulse II. With a Harbinger I'd get a 25% bonus to firing rate with T2 Mediums, I don't know if it can fit 7 Heavy Pulse II. =============================================== We are Watching You.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Scoundrelus Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Scoundrelus Zealot does more damage then the Harbinger. Sacrilege tanks better then the Harbinger. No I think HACs are fine. harbinger does more dmg then zealot And your basing your statement on what factual evidence exactly? The fact that it has more guns? Not diagreeing with you, just trying to find out why, frankly I'd be happy if it did more damage but I'm not much of a number cruncher and the Harbinger isn't on Quickfit. With a Zealot I get 25% bonus to Damage and Firing Rate with 5 Heavy Pulse II. With a Harbinger I'd get a 25% bonus to firing rate with T2 Mediums, I don't know if it can fit 7 Heavy Pulse II. well it's 4 HP on the zealot, and 7 on the harbinger they both have ROF bonus so we can neglect that in the calculation zealot with HAC 5 = 11,25 = 5 turrets harbinger = 11 = 7 turrets
CRUSH3R Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:08:00 - [37] I'll kill any hac on AC hurricane in closerange... and if lost it will cost me 25-30 mil only. Hacs will be able to fight vs cruizers\hacs only, new bcs will be better in firepower and sometimes even tankin. So I think the prices will go down..
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:18:00 - [38] Originally by: CRUSH3R I'll kill any hac on AC hurricane in closerange... and if lost it will cost me 25-30 mil only. Hacs will be able to fight vs cruizers\hacs only, new bcs will be better in firepower and sometimes even tankin. So I think the prices will go down.. It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. Remove citadel torpedo flashes!
Talon Calais Gallente Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 16:04:00 - [39] Edited by: Talon Calais on 29/10/2006 16:04:43 In other news, the Nighthawk has hit 350 mil in Jita. Oh and Vultures are 90.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 16:33:00 - [40] Originally by: LUKEC It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. By that logic, Vagabonds are ships for Carebears? --------- It's great being a Caldari, ain't it? Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 16:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: LUKEC It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. By that logic, Vagabonds are ships for Carebears? No, it's just hard to lose them. Trust me, price will drop as soon as 2x wcs on them will make them slightly less useful. Look at price of eagle / cerb and eagle is much better pvp ship in 90% cases. Sacri /zealot ... sacri sucks. Deimos / ishtar... Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. Remove citadel torpedo flashes!
Imhotep Khem Vortex.	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:13:00 - [42] Yes, Tier 2 BC will punch the HAC market nicely. A well fit Tier 1 BC can already take a HAC, let alone a Tier 2. Plus Tier 2 BC BPO will be readily available which means the ships will be in large supply, even in 00 space. Also lets not forget the high insurance payout for Tech 1 ships. HAC market will feel the pressure of tier 2 BC. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Imhotep Khem Yes, Tier 2 BC will punch the HAC market nicely. A well fit Tier 1 BC can already take a HAC, let alone a Tier 2. Plus Tier 2 BC BPO will be readily available which means the ships will be in large supply, even in 00 space. Also lets not forget the high insurance payout for Tech 1 ships. HAC market will feel the pressure of tier 2 BC. IMO a good thing... hacs are way overpriced
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:53:00 - [44] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: CRUSH3R I'll kill any hac on AC hurricane in closerange... and if lost it will cost me 25-30 mil only. Hacs will be able to fight vs cruizers\hacs only, new bcs will be better in firepower and sometimes even tankin. So I think the prices will go down.. It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. I rarely agree wit hLUKEC, but she's bang on the money on this one...carebears lose ships less often, therefore they are prepared to pay more for them. noe one pays 250 mill for a ships that they know there is a good chance they will lose tomorrow. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Imode Big enough. Quite frankly, if the the BC's were going to kill the HAC market, they would have done so already. Drakes are going to kill close range HACs like crazy, so if anything, teir 2 BCs are going to make HAC prices even more insane. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam Originally by: Glarion Garnier I expect many ppl will discover Nighthawk as a nice missioning platform after the ROF chainge. Not better or cheaper than a Drake. The NH will still be vadtly superior to the Drake for missions. With Kinetic your DPS will be higher, without kinetic, you'll be marginally lower. The NH's Tank is superior to the Drake's tank as well. Also, the NH's black paint looks cooler, but my god, if they'd make the NH use the Drake model that would just be HOT. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:38:00 - [47] Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Rania Serlia TetraMorph Nexus Inc. The Imperial Order	Posted - 2006.10.29 18:53:00 - [48] Edited by: Rania Serlia on 29/10/2006 18:53:44 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Vulture is fleet command, the last highslots are for gang mods, not more guns. And vulture is still a nice ship, being able to hit to 210+ with med rails, it's poissibly the best fleet command, able to assist the bettle from afar, and easily able to tank battleship snipers. Agree on the +1 turret for ferox. Merlin and raptor need the same treatment, to be honest. Back on topic, I believe it will impact it a bit, but the mere fact that T2 ships aren't getting the same magnitude of HP boost as T1 would have impacted it a bit anyways, I would think. I expect to see at least a few nano/overdrive hurricanes moving along at a nice 3-4km/s clip in the future, might cut into the vagabond's role slightly. Example My navi skills are pretty sucky too.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.29 19:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Actually i belive 3 races miss 1 slot on their l33t battlecruisers. Remove citadel torpedo flashes!
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.29 19:28:00 - [50] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: LUKEC Or the latest phenomena: nighthawk/vulture. The Ferox/Vulture REALLy need to have atleast one more, if not two more turrets. Vulture damage is horrifically low. I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if a Vulture can't break the tank of many NPC battleships. Actually i belive 3 races miss 1 slot on their l33t battlecruisers. True, but in general, the Ferox could really use 1-2 more turrets (and possible 1 more for moa/eagle) because as far as damage goes, the Rail Ferox is a joke, and it gets outgunned by cruisers. Plus for the Ferox, those 7 rails, 1 slot for gang mod would make use of the grid/cpu alot of setups seem to have leftover, or make people use an RCU and/or co-pro to fit the 2 more guns. But yeah in general, giving the missing/lacking slots would be nice. BCs seem almost 'fixed', so maybe by the end of Kali's phases, the Destroyers will be decent as well, as more than just alpha-striking a frig, then getting popped just as fast by a cruiser or larger. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Skrypt Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.29 22:58:00 - [51] Fact of the matter is... I have HAC 5 and (usually) deep pockets.. I'm going to be flying HACs as much as it pains me to do so. ___________
Alexander Knott	Posted - 2006.10.30 00:25:00 - [52] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i think the biggest hit to HACs will be the Drake, however HAC will still have their place due to speed and agility. drake has better fire power than the cerb so yea i think the cerb price should drop alot (thank god) and to the other guy on the prices...nighthawk costs me 80mil, cerb costs almost 200mil. -xian Might want to check your facts.... Cerb: 6x Launcher Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus Light and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level So at Cruiser 5, HAC 5 the Cerb gets a 50% bonus to damage with kinetic missiles and a 25% bonus to damage with regular missiles: 6x 1.5 = 9 launcher equiv Cerb also gets a 100% bonus to range on missiles making it reach out and touch to over 200km at best levels. Now look at the Drake: 5% bonus to resists & 5% bonus to missile rof for Assault, heavy and heavy assault launchers. So at max BC level the Drake gets a 25% bonus to dmg with missiles 7 x 1.25 = 8.75 (less firepower than Cerb w/o a railgun in slot 8) No range bonus so it's locked to ranges of around 125km or so. It's a better tank but the cerb both out-damages (a bit) it and out-ranges it (a lot). Not to mention the much higher speed/maneuverability. No... Cerb is still the superior ship, as it should be. bar the fact that cerb has 5 launchers, not 6 Also, a 25% RoF bonus is not a 25% damage bonus. It's 1.0/(1.0-0.25), or a 33% damage bonus.
Aion Amarra Minmatar ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 02:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Alexander Knott Also, a 25% RoF bonus is not a 25% damage bonus. It's 1.0/(1.0-0.25), or a 33% damage bonus. Bar the fact that the math is generally very screwy. A 50% flight time and a 50% velocity bonus means 100% x 1.5 x 1.5 = 225% range, or 125% more range than normal. Not 100% more. Because bonuses multiply, not add up. Same goes for damage mods. Even IF the RoF only equaled 25% more damage (as it doesn't as mentioned by Alexander), you'd still be looking at 100% * 1.25 * 1,25 = 156,25% which is a 56,25% increase in damage, not a 50% one. Since RoF shortens the time to refire, and doesn't directly increase the damage (as shown by Alexander), we're looking at (100% * 1.25) / 0.75 = 166.66% or an increase in DPS by two thirds. Hence we are looking at 8.33 effective launchers for the cerb, compared to the 7 / 0.75 = 9.33 effective launchers of the Drake. In addition, the damage bonus for the cerb only counts for kinetic missiles, so if you use any other damagetype, the cerb only deals the damage of 6.66 instead of 8.33 launchers. Result: Drake wtfpwns Cerb for Damage, while Cerb wtfpwns Drake for range. ________ Capitalization is the difference between "I helped my uncle Jack off his horse." and "I helped my uncle jack off his horse." Help the horses, make proper use of that shift button.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.10.30 03:37:00 - [54] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 30/10/2006 03:41:11 Originally by: Taram Caldar That is something I always wondered about. Why would you take away the cerb's drone bay? Kinda baffled me. You answered that question yourself. Cerb has a 200km range as does the Eagle. Caldari specialise in long range combat and their HACs are perfect examples of this. At such ranges drones are useless. In contrast, the drake is designed to use assault missiles aswell so it a mid range missile boat (like the raven before it) and therefore also uses drones.
Electric Cucumber Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:39:00 - [55] Edited by: Electric Cucumber on 30/10/2006 06:39:28 I think that once i lose my zealot i'll just get a harbinger and use that in future . more turrets,+ agility boost, costs WAY less to lose.
Victor Valka Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 07:32:00 - [56] Tier2 battlecruisers will put a nice dent in HAC prices. One that won't be missed by most. Could bring the expansive ones down to 150 million, maybe less. We'll see. Might even bring commandships down a little but I wouldn't hold my breath, that's for sure.
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.30 07:55:00 - [57] Originally by: Cletus Graeme In contrast, the drake is designed to use assault missiles aswell so it a mid range missile boat (like the raven before it) and therefore also uses drones. Most people will be using their HAM's at sub 10km ranges. That's hardly "midrange." "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Victor Valka Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 09:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Logan Xerxes Originally by: Cletus Graeme In contrast, the drake is designed to use assault missiles aswell so it a mid range missile boat (like the raven before it) and therefore also uses drones. Most people will be using their HAM's at sub 10km ranges. That's hardly "midrange." That will be kind difficult. Considering that: Drake will handle like a brick, even with the 20% agility boost. To boot, it's damn slow too, and due to mass it will be a real pain to bring it up to speed, even with an MWD. I foresee a lot of pretty explosions. Wonder what color they will be for Drake...
Galen Silas Gallente Digital assassins	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Imode Big enough. Quite frankly, if the the BC's were going to kill the HAC market, they would have done so already. Not to be rude but it was asked if Tier 2 BC's would do it, not T1.
Estan Drake	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:31:00 - [60] The Hacs wil still be more versitile and will take less damage from other cruisers/battlecruisers/ and battleships due to theit T2 resists, Smaller signatures, and higher speed. Damage output is another story and you can argue on that. The tier 2 BCs will be a boon for the poeple who havn't trained for tech 2 ships though so you will have a more slightly more competitive ship at less SP. Doesn't exactly cut into the T2 market at all though. I expect invention will go a lot farther in that.
Dracu1a Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:06:00 - [61] I really hope the market prices for the Ishtar and hacs in general go down. Would make it a lot easier on the wallet to fly. Sucks when i have to sit there in the station in my isthar telling myself its okay to undock and go pvp with it. "you can just get a new one. you can just get a new one. you can just get a new one......"
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.31 03:53:00 - [62] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: LUKEC It's not the pvp quality that controls price of hacs. Look at deimos price It's more... can ship be used for carebering or not. By that logic, Vagabonds are ships for Carebears? I can search to see if I still have the pic with a Vagabond doing a complex ... (no he didn't do it just for fun) On the topic, we all knew that the new BCs are made for ganking, what I didn't like though is that resistance bonus on the Drake ... it makes no sense. A bonus switch for the resistance to a missile flight time would be much better (yes, longer range on missiles but it can't tank like a mofo). _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.31 04:03:00 - [63] Originally by: Dracu1a I really hope the market prices for the Ishtar and hacs in general go down. Would make it a lot easier on the wallet to fly. Sucks when i have to sit there in the station in my isthar telling myself its okay to undock and go pvp with it. "you can just get a new one. you can just get a new one. you can just get a new one......" Myrmidon isn't going to decrease the price of the Ishtar. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Siakel	Posted - 2006.10.31 04:20:00 - [64] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Dracu1a I really hope the market prices for the Ishtar and hacs in general go down. Would make it a lot easier on the wallet to fly. Sucks when i have to sit there in the station in my isthar telling myself its okay to undock and go pvp with it. "you can just get a new one. you can just get a new one. you can just get a new one......" Myrmidon isn't going to decrease the price of the Ishtar. Yeah. Maybe I'm missing something, but it really does seem to be the only Tier2 BC that doesn't really outclass its HAC counterpart in any way at all.
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.31 04:42:00 - [65] So all you guys who are convinced that the HAC market is going to drop are selling your HACs now, right? I mean, it would be silly to sit on them when you can buy them for what, 20% less in a few weeks? 30%? Sell now while the prices are high!
Xianthar Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.31 04:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Spaced Skunk Originally by: Xianthar dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian Nighthawk - 250M Sleipnir - 185M (gone up 50M in 2 weeks, and still rising) Astarte - 190M (Gone up a lot, still rising) Absolution - 130M (Not gone up, good) The reason I am not training for a command ship anymore tbh it the rediculous t2 market prices. When the next patch comes out, hopefully it will bring the sliepnir down to around 120-30M, which I will pay, Muninn is going up (130M now), this will go down, simply because the hurricane will be better for artillery, while the muninn will do less damage it still gets more tracking and range. Vagabond still keeps its nice role, the 80%+ of stabbed up vagabond pilots will weep, but its still fast, agile and damaging. Vagas are too expensive these days and I will not be paying for another in the event I lose mine, desipe all the training time I used. The new battlecruisers are good, but HACs are still very tanked and do a lot of dps, while remaining a cruiser, so I cannot see them making HACs go really down in price. all i can say is stop buying stuff at market price, go make some friends, connections are everything in eve. -xian
Father Weebles Panzershrek Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.31 05:43:00 - [67] i wish i had tech2 bpo owners as friends old corpmate buys pilgrims for 30million from a friend :/ "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.31 06:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Witch Doctor So all you guys who are convinced that the HAC market is going to drop are selling your HACs now, right? I mean, it would be silly to sit on them when you can buy them for what, 20% less in a few weeks? 30%? Sell now while the prices are high! Done it already quite some time ago and I own atm about 8 CBCs and 2 Eagles (the Eagles won't go for selling as I expect to use them in the comming weeks) About "friends" and T2 products/BPOs : Trust is EVERYTHING If you have RL friends or people that you know that you can trust you can do an internal IPO. Collect all the money you can and buy a T2 BPO. The BPO will remain a corp asset that will continue to make money for you and your friends and it will help you raise money to get another good BPO. The problem is TRUST though. Can you trust those people enough to give them every single penny you have ? Can you trust them that they will produce the product, give back the money you invested or they will run away with the money and the BPO ? People today ingame don't understand that today's big houses of t2 products aren't the work of a single person but the work of a GROUP of people working together for a goal. Single persons that have T2 BPOs are the exception or a small minority, but even as a minority they sure as hell ain't stupid, they know what is going on the market and most important of all they have WORKED in order to get where they are, cause having the BPO is one thing, producing it is another thing ... the logistics of such a task are big especially if it is Ship building. _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.31 23:48:00 - [69] Originally by: Victor Valka I foresee a lot of pretty explosions. Wonder what color they will be for Drake... Depends on the missile-type they use to kill the close-range ships that try to kill them. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.11.01 01:22:00 - [70] HAM drake might not be a charger. instead it will own all close range ships. AC/blaster/pulse users will probally find out that drakes hurt alot. and its innate resists will probally let it pwn close range HACs.
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.11.01 04:09:00 - [71] Originally by: Xianthar dun know why the hac market is still how it is. imo recons are better ships for the same size and command ships own hacs yet are still cheaper ? -xian Because recon / command are not yet controlled by a monopoly / oligopoli. When the guys who own the BPO's get their **** together (or the guys who won't co-operate are bought out), we're gonna get hurt on the prices of the newer t2 ships. The only thing that can save us is the invention system. Pray!
Kidd Billups Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.01 04:26:00 - [72] its pathetic
Shirley Koch	Posted - 2006.11.02 10:03:00 - [73] Originally by: Talon Calais Edited by: Talon Calais on 29/10/2006 16:04:43 In other news, the Nighthawk has hit 350 mil in Jita. Oh and Vultures are 90. i got one for 240 today :-D
Jazz Bo Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.02 11:05:00 - [74] Edited by: Jazz Bo on 02/11/2006 11:06:33 Originally by: Scoundrelus Zealot does more damage then the Harbinger. Sacrilege tanks better then the Harbinger. No I think HACs are fine. That's a silly comparison. It's not like you can fly some kind of Transformer that turns into a Zealot when you need damage, and into a Sacrilege when you need to tank. Harbinger's versatility & cheap price should make it most people's number one choice in most situations. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
Jazz Bo Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.02 11:05:00 - [75] Edited by: Jazz Bo on 02/11/2006 11:05:14 Double post, apologies. Quote: Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.02 20:38:00 - [76] When ever Kali is introduced we will see a correction in the T2 industry as a whole. Not just HAS prices. Sure, ppl will be more inclined to fly the new BC's for cost reasons but the real reason prices will drop some is going to be invention. If ppl can sacrifice a few BPC's for a low ME T2 BPC they will be money ahead and produce thier own HAS cheaper. Prices will not fall as far as a lot of ppl think though. There is going to be a tremendous increase in demand for T2 building materials thus those ppl moon mining and running reactions will be increasing prices. It still should be better than it is now. Unless of course you just paid 75 zillion isk on a T2 bpo. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.

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