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Triakis Cadelanne
Nova Tech Inc.
12
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Posted - 2015.04.03 01:53:39 -
[1] - Quote
Hello guys,
As far as I know BS tweaks are the most controversed things CCP did lastly. Numerous players want them more powerfuls, or the warp speed tweak to be removed.
Well, I can't tell I want to see their stats buffed with the data I got. It's a bit weird to see that you jump from rougly 100 - 170 DPS with T1 S size to 400 - 500 DPS with T1 M size, and then to a poor 700 DPS when you're using L size. But I assume it answers a well-rounded game design logic. I suppose that a 400 Megathron-made fleet with 1200 DPS each would be fairly OP in big battle game.
What's wrong to me with battleships, atm, is their price. Most BS are tagged around 200M at Jita. You don't pack much more power than cruisers, just a bit more range, DPS and more tank (but less damage application and mobility ofc) and the price goes from 10M to 200M. Multiplied 20 times. I modestly think it's way to much and that a battleship should never be this expensive. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
91
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Posted - 2015.04.03 07:07:31 -
[2] - Quote
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:Hello guys,
As far as I know BS tweaks are the most controversed things CCP did lastly. Numerous players want them more powerfuls, or the warp speed tweak to be removed.
Well, I can't tell I want to see their stats buffed with the data I got. It's a bit weird to see that you jump from rougly 100 - 170 DPS with T1 S size to 400 - 500 DPS with T1 M size, and then to a poor 700 DPS when you're using L size. But I assume it answers a well-rounded game design logic. I suppose a fleet made of 400 battleships with 1200 DPS each would be fairly OP in the big battle game.
What's wrong to me with battleships, atm, is their price. Most BS are tagged around 180M at Jita (some being 150M, some being 210M). You don't pack much more power than cruisers, just a bit more range, DPS and more tank (but less damage application and mobility ofc) and the price jumps from 10M to 180M. Multiplied 18 times. I modestly think it's way to much and that a battleship should never be this expensive.
I think it would be fairly logic to have them just a bit more expensive than attack BC (e. g. around 110M a hull), the attack BC having a better mobility and the BS a better tanking.
Hmm what would you suggest in regard of faction BS which a slightly better than T1 but twice higher in prices. Something is very wrong here. But prices are subject of eve economics and ccp don't control them other than minerals requirements for production.
Price correction is not a balance. |
Triakis Cadelanne
Nova Tech Inc.
12
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Posted - 2015.04.03 07:49:54 -
[3] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote: Hmm what would you suggest in regard of faction BS which a slightly better than T1 but twice higher in prices. Something is very wrong here. But prices are subject of eve economics and ccp don't control them other than minerals requirements for production.
Price correction is not a balance.
But changing mineral requirements (as they did when removing the tiercipe) is a balance.
Regarding faction, it has always been a lot more expensive than regular T1. Look at navy frig and cruiser's price regarding their T1 counterpart. |
Strangelove Utama
The Maythorn
2
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Posted - 2015.04.03 08:19:40 -
[4] - Quote
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:Hello guys, What's wrong to me with battleships, atm, is their price. Most BS are tagged around 180M at Jita (some being 150M, some being 210M). You don't pack much more power than cruisers, just a bit more range, DPS and more tank (but less damage application and mobility ofc) and the price jumps from 10M to 180M. Multiplied 18 times. I modestly think it's way to much and that a battleship should never be this expensive.
What you fail to account for is insurance. T1 battleships after platinum insurance are far cheaper than a T3 or T2 cruiser. Honestly I think the only real problem with battleships is the fact bombers wreck them so hard. |
FT Cold
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.04.03 08:20:26 -
[5] - Quote
T1 battleships aren't actually very expensive to fly compared to much of what people currently choose to fly. Most of them, fit with t2 and m4, with a full cargo hold and drone bay cost about 80m to fly (read lose) after insurance. Compare that to something like a fit navy omen and you'll find the price gap really isn't that wide.
Fleet oriented hulls, like the TFI, snake, and napoc are priced competitively with the t3 cruisers we see all over the place.
The cost of their hulls isn't what is keeping pilots out of them. |
Zura Namee
The Milkmen
26
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Posted - 2015.04.03 13:05:51 -
[6] - Quote
I've never heard of anyone shying away from T1 battleships because of their cost.
People stay out of battleships because bombers eat them alive and cruisers get more applied DPS in most cases while being harder to hit and faster to roam with. |
Liam Inkuras
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
1503
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Posted - 2015.04.03 14:07:52 -
[7] - Quote
After insurance a fully T2 fit BS is only going to run you about 80m, much cheaper than a HAC (rip T2 insurance buff) or other T2 cruiser
I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
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Jewsus Gomez
New Onus Corp
3
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Posted - 2015.04.04 21:33:16 -
[8] - Quote
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
What's wrong to me with battleships, atm, is their price. Most BS are tagged around 180M at Jita (some being 150M, some being 210M). You don't pack much more power than cruisers, just a bit more range, DPS and more tank (but less damage application and mobility ofc) and the price jumps from 10M to 180M. Multiplied 18 times. I modestly think it's way to much and that a battleship should never be this expensive.
I think it would be fairly logic to have them just a bit more expensive than attack BC (e. g. around 110M a hull), the attack BC having a better mobility and the BS a better tanking.
Problem I see with battleships is that they're already better than cruisers on most levels out of the box, and the cap on dps and tank is significantly higher, where cruisers require months of training to be truly viable for soloing t4's. not to mention, the larger powergrid, capacitor, and access to microjump drives makes battleships significantly better for all pve activities. For the bonuses you get from running a battleship in PVE for missioning, the price difference is well worth it.
I can't speak for PVP b/c I currently haven't touched it yet. I am to assume that the problem that people actually have with using battleships stems from the fact that in pvp your ability to effectively run away requires you to align and reach warp velocity. This problem battleships face is compounded by the fact that smaller ships often bump them to prevent this alignment and keep the battleship stuck. If I had to guess, the problem most people have is because they're taking tech1 battleships into low or null sec and getting ganged up on, and when faced with a situation they cannot run away from (even through having the correct loadout to handle scramblers and int bubbles), they get stuck having to fight a battle they cannot win. This is just my guess, and I'm probably completely wrong on this and for the record I don't PVP yet (I prefer a farming simulator EVE Online right now to potentially losing my ships). |
Hel Hrothgar
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.04.05 00:11:34 -
[9] - Quote
I think comparing damage in terms of dps alone is a mistake. There are two types of damage applied; dps and alpha and yes it does matter.
Comparing a Raven to a Drake to a Caracal is more or less what is happening here. Can you run level 4 missions in a Drake with paltry skills? Yes but with difficulty. Can you run level 4 missions with a caracal with paltry skills? Probably not. Can you run a level 4 mission in a raven with paltry skills? Yes, most definitely and largely without much difficulty and largely quicker since the raven packs more alpha per shot, carries more heavy hitting drones and more range.
Things do begin to change when your skills flesh out with the respective ship you are flying. Cruisers become monsters, even T1 variations. Nearly any BC is a fright once you get your skills up and battleships are of no exception either. The difference between barely flying a Raven and flying a Raven is night and day in terms of everything.
There is more to weapons than just dps. Alpha, Range and every other stat that doesn't come to mind make all the difference in the world between weapon sizes and there is a clear line between medium sized ships and weapons versus large sized ships and weapons.
Upgrading from a battlecruiser to a battleship class ship is truly an upgrade. It feels like one in every way, unless you only look at the ship only with the lens of dps. |
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.04.05 01:39:52 -
[10] - Quote
The issue is they have too many weakness's and not very many strengths. They are slow moving, slow targeting, slow warping, slow turning, can't hit anything reliably smaller then a BC and are totally and utterly vulnerable against frigates, even two can easily overpower most battleships.
How it should be? They should be slow, they should target slow, they should warp slow, they should not be able to pick their fights well, or run well, but what they SHOULD do well is stand and fight. As of right now, they simply can't. Some of you will yell, well my BS can pump out 1200 dps easy! Sure they can, on a station, sitting still. Against anything smaller then you and moving, you can knock off 70 percent of that.
The point is for their cost and weakness, they have very few benefits beyond on paper tank and dps. They simply don't apply damage well. They turn into floating paper weights and big fat targets honestly. Any cruiser will give you more applied bang for your buck for much less cost.
This does not apply to every BS, obviously. Drone boats obviously don't suffer from these same issues, as well as ships with special benefits to applying damage. The vast majority of BS leave much to be desired however. It is simply a fact |
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Phig Neutron
Rubicon Cubism
134
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Posted - 2015.04.05 01:48:20 -
[11] - Quote
Strangelove Utama wrote:Honestly I think the only real problem with battleships is the fact bombers wreck them so hard.
I have an idea about that here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5636409 Go give me an upvote or whatever if you like it. |
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
99
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Posted - 2015.04.06 19:18:22 -
[12] - Quote
Battleships are not for PvP. You don't balance them that way. It's pretty much purely (with rare exception) a PvE ship. Test them against T4's or other high end PvE, compare, balance... walk away. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
173
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Posted - 2015.04.06 19:52:31 -
[13] - Quote
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:Battleships are not for PvP. You don't balance them that way. It's pretty much purely (with rare exception) a PvE ship. Test them against T4's or other high end PvE, compare, balance... walk away.
Not sure if serious.
Is serious. vOv
But I do agree that Battleships won't be touched AT ALL, mainly because of people farming LVL4/Incursions in Hisec. Can't have them pulling in 150-250 mil an hour, otherwise you'd have to readjust the whole reward system.
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4324
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Posted - 2015.04.06 20:01:40 -
[14] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:But I do agree that Battleships won't be touched AT ALL, mainly because of people farming LVL4/Incursions in Hisec. Can't have them pulling in 150-250 mil an hour, otherwise you'd have to readjust the whole reward system. Move Incursions to low-sec and let the tears commence.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
175
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Posted - 2015.04.06 20:46:21 -
[15] - Quote
I meant that Incursions and LVL4 are largely a BS thing, hence BS pvp balance being subject to PvE overlords.
But yes, moving LVL4/Incursions to lowsecks and fixing battleships would be optimal.
P.S. Lussy Lou streaming a Rattlesnake x2, Bhaalgorn roam - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KTa0HVA_Vs Crab hunt in the Karavela
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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Triakis Cadelanne
Nova Tech Inc.
12
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Posted - 2015.04.06 21:05:25 -
[16] - Quote
I was talking about a PvP use of BS. Ofc when you're choosing a mission running ship you don't care if it costs 100M, 200M or 500M.
Remember that if insurance seriously lower the effective price of a PvP BS, it's the same for a cruiser or any other T1 ship. I know that the fit's price is way higher on a cruiser regarding the hull price, but this isn't sufficient, imo, to close the gap between overused cruisers and overpriced battleships.
Battleship aren't the allmighty response to every subcap thing, which is a good thing. So why do they cost as much as if they were ? |
Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4325
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Posted - 2015.04.06 21:06:46 -
[17] - Quote
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:I was talking about a PvP use of BS. Ofc when you're choosing a mission running ship you don't care if it costs 100M, 200M or 500M. I'd love a PvE battleship that cost 100m.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
175
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Posted - 2015.04.06 21:11:36 -
[18] - Quote
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:I was talking about a PvP use of BS.
As are we, friend, as are we.
Quote:Remember that if insurance seriously lower the effective price of a PvP BS, it's the same for a cruiser or any other T1 ship. I know that the fit's price is way higher on a cruiser regarding the hull price, but this isn't sufficient, imo, to close the gap between overused cruisers and overpriced battleships.
Yes, the battleship build cost is super-high, thus a high price entry barrier to most people even if insurance pays back 121%.
Tier 1 and Tier 2 battleship manufacturing cost used to be around 50 and 90 mil - Armageddon and Apocalypse, but then CCP raised the it to tier 3 level. vOv
Quote:Battleship aren't the allmighty response to every subcap thing, which is a good thing. So why do they cost as much as if they were ?
Due to the above - arbitrary CCP decision.
Also because the Battleship is a cornerstone concept to this game that used to be called Eve Online: The Second Genesis, and used to be actually a useful, allmighty response to every "subcap"... around the year 2008.
But that second part is just a relic of the past.
Enjoy PvE in your battleships, guis.
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15582
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Posted - 2015.04.06 22:18:31 -
[19] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Triakis Cadelanne wrote:I was talking about a PvP use of BS. Ofc when you're choosing a mission running ship you don't care if it costs 100M, 200M or 500M. I'd love a PvE battleship that cost 100m.
We get several "donated" to our corp every week
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
177
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Posted - 2015.04.07 00:31:15 -
[20] - Quote
Guys baited outside a hostile station, Chimera and Thanatos undocked along with a Proteus --- Couldn't break their rep, so pulled the Prot 70km away from the carriers, killed him and more **** started to undock and warp on them at zero.
All-in-all kills: Proteus, Scorpion (thanks ECCM Keres ), Armageddon, Draek I think.
Later on, they found a cruiser gang on a gate, engaged and a Hel warped in. Late de-aggro cost one Rattlesnake.
Snakes were 3 DDA, all Highs with Cap Transfers and a shield tank fit.
CCP, your Skynet fix appears to be working!
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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