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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3443
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Posted - 2015.04.03 09:42:38 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR: EVE is changing fast. Change is both positive and negative. Changing fast can be good if there is a goal good enough to compensate for the stress of change, or very bad if the only purpose of that change is to maintain the subscription numbers where they are.
The Red Queen's Race:
Lewis Carrol wrote:"Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere elseGÇöif you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing."
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
EVE used to change at the stately pace of twice a year, roughly. That allowed plenty of time (supposedly) to test all the content delivered, adapt to any changes, and look for any errors before launch. The fact was that it didn't worked as expected, as expansions often where delivered with new bugs added to old bugs, and suffered from poor design decissions and even lack of time to be finished properly.
After the Incarna fiasco, CCP adopted a new development strategy, and this strategy has come to fruition with CCP seagull's idea to release content as soon as it's finished, in a strategy involving 10 releases a year and whcih recently was announced to be allowed to release standalone features inbetween releases.
Reading and talking, I've had the impression that most people think this is good in itself, but the fact is that change is two-fold. it can be good, or it can be bad.
Change haves a negative impact on everyone involved. Developers run out of new ideas to develop; players may fail to learn of new changes and suffer consequences; new players may find that some of their pooled knowledge just changes midway; keeping uo to date requires more reading and thus less time spent playing; and sometimes a change will be wrong, may slip overlooked and do harm to the game.
On the other hand, change keeps the players interested, as the old biannual expansion system had a noticeable effect of "unsub until next season"; it allows to fix mistakes faster; also allows to reflect player actions as a part of the development process (Caroline's Star?).
Yet, in the long run, change is tiring. Change is like juggling many things in the air, with each change being a new thing to juggle: even the most skilled person will stress over time and mistakes will happen. Human are not built to withstand continuous change; our primal brains fear change because there's a threat in the unknown.
Change, and fast change, are good when there's a new stability ahead. When change is being performed in order to create a new stable situation, where change will occur less often and a positive gain will be obtained, then change can be endured temporally and then tune down as the rewards for change are reaped.
Change, we may hope, is being carried so fast because it's the way to reach the post-Rubicon development plan sooner. You know the wider strokes of that plan: more influence of players in their environment, new player built gates leading to new space to colonize with new rewards and new risks. In the process, nullsec will get a new nullsec gameplay with a different sovereignty, and we're seeing NPCs added to the mix to stirr the waters with a new threat.
All that is good, as long as players buy that goal. CCP supposedly knows better, and so when they took that path, we may hope it's because what players want is more pew pew, not better or new PvE. Personally, I think that according to CCP's own classification, 62% of their customer are not paying them for the pew pew... but that's just my impression and maybe CCP just failed to coomunicate that, yes, "Traditional" and "Entrepreneur" and "Social" players do lots of pew pew so more no-sec space to pew epw along is exactly what they want (just not me nor anyone I know in those cathegories).
Now, let's say that with or without Rubicon plan, the game was suffering from stagnating or decaying subscription numbers due to age, complexity, veteran bias, et cetera, and the reason for change was just to keep players subscribed. By avoiding the "unsub until next season", and by creating a (false) exciting atomsphere of change upon change where everybody can dream of getting his dream content eventually.
Such a scenario, were change is being carried for the sake of it, just to keep the players subcribed with new stuff, is a scenario we know from almost every conventional MMO. No matter what you add to such a game, once it's old and tired, it's old and tired.
For EVE, as a rare case of subcription MMO and a sandbox, spending development effort in change just to keep the subscriptions rather than to achieve a goal where CCP can stop changing and reap the profits of all the change, would be a Red Queen's Race.
And the final point is, is really the Rubicon plan the goal that EVE needs? Will it attract new people to the old game riddle with overskilled and jaded veterans? Will it keep interested the large majority of players who don't like to shoot at other players?
Is more to Rubicon than we know? Or what we know is all that's there, and CCP just embarked EVE in a Red Queen's Race, where after the stressful time of changes to get more pew-pew we'll have to endure even more fast changes for everything not pew-pew...?
The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
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Big Lynx
1133
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Posted - 2015.04.03 09:53:17 -
[2] - Quote
tl:dr |
Aphsala
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2015.04.03 09:57:23 -
[3] - Quote
eve is dying? |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2245
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Posted - 2015.04.03 10:00:59 -
[4] - Quote
Aphsala wrote:eve is dying?
Essentially |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5960
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Posted - 2015.04.03 10:12:29 -
[5] - Quote
Precisely.
The concluding paragraph was a bunch of questions, so I guess the OP had nothing useful to say, just a lot of questions.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
314
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Posted - 2015.04.03 10:16:03 -
[6] - Quote
Eve will die when such threads stop appearing.
It will go out not with a bang, but with a quiet, years-long whimper.
So everything is okay I guess. |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2245
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Posted - 2015.04.03 10:17:32 -
[7] - Quote
But on a serious note, I agree with a few points, especially if it seems to me like they are not entirely sure what is actually supposed to happen and then people leave the company and stuff is poorly implement and other stuff makes no sense and they said they actually have no idea where they are even taking the whole Drifters thing but that may have just been a thing.
Oh well. |
SeenButNotHeard
Perkone Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2015.04.03 10:33:25 -
[8] - Quote
A complicated way of saying that the current expansion policy is too fast and creates an unstable environment for players.
Something I actually agree with. The goalposts seem to be shifting constantly.
HTFU, I hear you cry. Adapt or die! That's fine - but where does it end and for how long is it fun to adapt? A year? 3 years? What's the desired end-state?
I stil think 10 updates is slightly nuts. I'd have thought 6 would have been hard enough to maintain. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
852
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Posted - 2015.04.03 10:34:25 -
[9] - Quote
EVE is ded. Lets all go play WoW, I'm sure trade chat will be almost as entertaining as alliance chat.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6680
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Posted - 2015.04.03 10:38:36 -
[10] - Quote
SeenButNotHeard wrote:HTFU, I hear you cry. Adapt or die! That's fine - but where does it end and for how long is it fun to adapt? It ends when the funnest way to adapt is not to play. That is also how long it is fun to adapt in eve.
Aiwha wrote:EVE is ded. Lets all go play WoW, I'm sure trade chat will be almost as entertaining as alliance chat. Well we'd still use jabber anyway.
Besides you'd think we were a WoW guild from some of the chats around the time of the last wow expansion/major patch or whatever.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3444
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Posted - 2015.04.03 11:02:15 -
[11] - Quote
SeenButNotHeard wrote:A complicated way of saying that the current expansion policy is too fast and creates an unstable environment for players.
Something I actually agree with. The goalposts seem to be shifting constantly.
HTFU, I hear you cry. Adapt or die! That's fine - but where does it end and for how long is it fun to adapt? A year? 3 years? What's the desired end-state?
I stil think 10 updates is slightly nuts. I'd have thought 6 would have been hard enough to maintain.
Change for the sake of changing is bad. Change for too long is bad. So the hope is that change is because they're moving to a goal where we can regain our collective breath and keep playing this game in a better shape than ever... preferably with a nice income of fresh blood. And preferably with something to do for all the people who is not buying EVE for the pew pew.
Now looks like nullsec will get their Sov by June so let's see how long until PvEr get something to bite on... preferably something up to EVE and not just more grind for ISK.
The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
771
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Posted - 2015.04.03 11:04:53 -
[12] - Quote
Kiandoshia wrote:Aphsala wrote:eve is dying? Essentially What else would you expect from Ishtanchuk Fazmarai? |
Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
151
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Posted - 2015.04.03 11:12:13 -
[13] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Kiandoshia wrote:Aphsala wrote:eve is dying? Essentially What else would you expect from Ishtanchuk Fazmarai? Sex and naughtyness.
btw, is James on permanent leave?
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3444
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Posted - 2015.04.03 11:16:52 -
[14] - Quote
I provided it right at the start:
EVE is changing fast. Change is both positive and negative. Changing fast can be good if there is a goal good enough to compensate for the stress of change, or very bad if the only purpose of that change is to maintain the subscription numbers where they are.
The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3444
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Posted - 2015.04.03 11:21:46 -
[15] - Quote
Jade Blackwind wrote:Eve will die when such threads stop appearing.
It will go out not with a bang, but with a quiet, years-long whimper.
So everything is okay I guess.
That's true. When things die in EVE, they die in silence.
The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
772
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Posted - 2015.04.03 11:31:18 -
[16] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Kiandoshia wrote:Aphsala wrote:eve is dying? Essentially What else would you expect from Ishtanchuk Fazmarai? Sex and naughtyness. btw, is James on permanent leave? Well it's been 6 months since the ban, so I can now write a petition for appeal. |
Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
152
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Posted - 2015.04.03 11:42:16 -
[17] - Quote
Really? There's a timeframe for that? Geee I always get stuck at 180s .....
Good luck with it!
I should ask DJ to appeal his permaban as well ....
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
344
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Posted - 2015.04.03 12:14:16 -
[18] - Quote
Well thought out and written post that forces a person to ask some serious questions for themselves in the end. You got a +1 from me for it.
Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
152
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Posted - 2015.04.03 12:26:08 -
[19] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Now looks like nullsec will get their Sov by June so let's see how long until PvEr get something to bite on... preferably something up to EVE and not just more grind for ISK. The Circadian Seekers, the Drifters and Burner missions don't tell you what's going on?
These represent a global storyline. They're essentially PvE, but for everyone.
And they're just the beginning!
Burner missions were introduced so CCP can show off, test and evolve their AI. Seekers and Drifters are direct descendents of that. CCP said that they are "learning", which translates into them adapting the AI to player's reactions.
When we look at all the changes CCP has made in the last many months, it's clear that they are "pedal to the metal" into finishing EVE "2.0".
You already see "more PvE", but you have to see it. You have to see it in the now and what will come of it in the future.
I wouldn't worry about this. If I extrapolate what they do ... ... and hope they then go these ways, of course ...
... then you will see new missions against new enemies ... ... most hopefully the old missions revamped with a new AI, making them actually hard ... ... and thus an end to the ISK-grinding mentality.
The biggest enemy of a brighter PvE future are those who do not want it to be harder or more engaging or not about ISK at all. Those who only PvE, easy-mode, because it fills their wallets with fake money and their ego with fake pride.
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
153
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Posted - 2015.04.03 12:30:48 -
[20] - Quote
Also it's funny how you changed your portrait during this thread.
I liked it better with the uniform. It was interestingly strict and formal, unlike how "you" normally look like.
I can't agree with saying "change can be good or bad". Change is Change. The consequences of Change go one way or the other and what we make of it is what essentially defines if it will be considered "good" or "bad" relative to what we had before.
Thus: The portrait pre red-shirt now was really great and felt totally fresh.
Sometimes Change isn't about good or bad ... ... but about the difference.
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
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Aphsala
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2015.04.03 12:31:31 -
[21] - Quote
Also to add to what Eve said, look for answers in CSM minutes and eve videos |
Dots
State Protectorate Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2015.04.03 13:22:32 -
[22] - Quote
From Matt Ridley's The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature:
Quote:That something is natural does not make it right: Murder is "natural" in the sense that our ape relatives commit it regularly, as apparently did our human ancestors: Prejudice, hate, violence, crueltyGÇöall are more or less part of our nature, and all can be effectively countered by the right kind of nurture. Nature is not inflexible but malleable. Moreover, the most natural thing of all about evolution is that some natures will be pitted against others. Evolution does not lead to Utopia. It leads to a land in which what is best for one man may be the worst for another man, or what is best for a woman may be the worst for a man. One or the other will be condemned to an "unnatural" fate. That is the essence..
everything is better with ߦêߦÆߦù-ó on it
New Player Opportunities: a gallery
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1228
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Posted - 2015.04.03 13:25:18 -
[23] - Quote
Ummmmm.......
Death to supers?
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3445
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Posted - 2015.04.03 14:03:06 -
[24] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Now looks like nullsec will get their Sov by June so let's see how long until PvEr get something to bite on... preferably something up to EVE and not just more grind for ISK. The Circadian Seekers, the Drifters and Burner missions don't tell you what's going on? These represent a global storyline. They're essentially PvE, but for everyone. And they're just the beginning! Burner missions were introduced so CCP can show off, test and evolve their AI. Seekers and Drifters are direct descendents of that. CCP said that they are "learning", which translates into them adapting the AI to player's reactions. When we look at all the changes CCP has made in the last many months, it's clear that they are "pedal to the metal" into finishing EVE "2.0". You already see "more PvE", but you have to see it. You have to see it in the now and what will come of it in the future. I wouldn't worry about this. If I extrapolate what they do ... ... and hope they then go these ways, of course ... ... then you will see new missions against new enemies ... ... most hopefully the old missions revamped with a new AI, making them actually hard ... ... and thus an end to the ISK-grinding mentality. The biggest enemy of a brighter PvE future are those who do not want it to be harder or more engaging or not about ISK at all. Those who only PvE, easy-mode, because it fills their wallets with fake money and their ego with fake pride.
I've said a few times what I want from PvE, as a form of PvP through other means. Not engaging into PvE should be a choice with potential consequences, much as not engaging into pew pew is a choice with potential consequences.
Thus, a new form of PvE should be driven by players and have an impact on players.
There are several ways to achieve that. Yet I'd be shocked if CCP figured, and let alone implemented, such a system.
The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
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Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2015.04.03 14:16:50 -
[25] - Quote
Change is GOOD.
Learn, adapt, embrace change.
or stagnate and die.
As the meerkats (or mice for any 'cheese' people out there) would say - "simple - squeak" |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3447
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Posted - 2015.04.03 14:27:06 -
[26] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:(...) I liked it better with the uniform. It was interestingly strict and formal, unlike how "you" normally look like. (...).
I'm still tinkering with the white skirt. Unfortunately we don't have white heels, but have red heels, yet then we don't have red jackets. So the only red-white-red scheme is using that tank top, with its weird green borders. I'm not a big fan of it.
By the way, Ish has worn uniforms in the past. See here, here and here.
Unfortunately, "militia" uniforms are OOC for her. She's never been a military, and probably the closest thing to a uniform she could wear accordingly to her biography, would be something like this...
The Greater Fool Bar_ is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! _
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1517
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Posted - 2015.04.03 15:07:03 -
[27] - Quote
I believe the current strategy is optimal for CCP's current push to, as Solecist said, push EVE kicking and screaming into the long-promised 2.0 iteration. It's a well-considered way to push out a complete overhaul of a mature game with a minimal chance of breaking it.
And I agree, the changes are coming uncomfortably quickly right now, but I'm sure from CCP's perspective they're not quite coming fast enough.
I imagine that once Seagull is satisfied that EVE is on its new course, the release schedule will switch again, probably to some variant of ship-it-when-its-ready.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4264
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Posted - 2015.04.03 15:38:52 -
[28] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts.
The Rules: 11. Discussion of warnings and bans is prohibited.
Such matters shall remain private between CCP and the involved user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through email or private messaging. CCP respect the right of our players to privacy and as such you are not permitted to publicize private correspondence (including support ticket responses and emails) received from any member of CCP staff.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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DaReaper
Net 7
1890
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Posted - 2015.04.03 15:40:30 -
[29] - Quote
A few points, no i'm not going to quote, too lazy.
1) Actually, mist of the big stuff has been in line with the old release cycle. Phobe and the changes just before and after would of been a big 6 month patch. The next big set of changes won;t come till june, and before then it looks like we will get a bit of mini things changing. The goal post are not constantly shifting, because there is technically no goal post.
2) This new cycle is actually an improvement in how suff is brought to eve. In my 11 years here, the last year of releases, stuff feels more poished and complete, and not as half assed as it once was. We will see if the sov and structure changes hep to complete that picture or not.
3) Honestly, a dev leaving should not affect the entire scope of whats going on. Seagull seems to have the overal theme, goals and story line moving along, and placed int he hands of the devs the means to get there. Which is how things should be. Stuff should also be communicated and worked on by teams. So that if the head of your team leaves, but all team members know what there goals and objectives were, it would be a simple matter to continue the work started. CCP's issue in the past is not so much that a dev left and projects got left to roit, it was more of a "lets do this feature.. and then ignore it as me move on tot he next, because in our limited time we can;t waste resources fixing it' The new cycle has removed that "oh new shiney!" factor.
Honestly the new release cycle is producing some of the best stuff i have seen in my years here. I'm ready for more, so bring it.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
677
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Posted - 2015.04.03 19:21:24 -
[30] - Quote
The Alice In Wonderland insert just doesn't apply to the stated subject of this OP. Already there's exaggeration in order to prime the pump for the appropriately agreeable responses. Suffice to say there's probably a few hundred people who took a narrow set of mechanics and decided to "specialize" in them. Maybe it was to "make ISK real fast!" Maybe it was just to pad their killboard (a perfectly self-defeating item, by the way - EVE killboard mentality).
All of them have stopped by and at length tried to present a polemic as though it is the earth-shaking gospel at last, and all must tremble before its truth. All must come to a grinding halt, and reverse must be found if it breaks off the shift stick. This of course feeds into an ego thing it seems more than a few hundred people here have, "What I think so supercedes the rest of humanity, all I have to do is mention a thought, and the workings of an entire corporation will bend to my will."
I guess the "too long/didn't read" factor looms large if you weren't among the first twenty or thirty posts of this nature, OP. If I got this in my snail mail it wouldn't have made it into the house. After all, we've heard it all before.
Let us know when you think of something new.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
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