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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:18:00 -
[151]
Edited by: pershphanie on 26/10/2006 08:21:45
 Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Incidentally, that CLS pilot actually had a fitting on his ship. Perhaps he WAS travelling somewhere moving bms to an alt. Perhaps he WAS copying bms for a friend. In Zorba's mail there's no fitting on his ship whatsoever, only hundreds of bms - enough to truncate the killmail because of all the ones that were destroyed, never mind the ones left over in the can.
Really? You think it is probable that an ASCN member happend to be "traveling" through a system where an epic battle launched by his CEO was taking place including capital ship POS warfare and he had no idea? Then he "accidentally" happend to warp to the same hostile pos where the fight was taking place at the precise time the fight was taking place where he happend to have his cargo full of bms and get blown up?
Wow. What an amazing coincidence. What are the odds?
0/10
burring your head in the sand does not mean this didnt happen. Nice try. having an inner conflict about chosing the side of exploiters or bob? I dont blame you tbh.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:19:00 -
[152]
I was in xelas for 3 weeks before leaving yesterday so I am not going to assume I am an expert in eve war/politics. Furthermore this was the first time I had experienced 0.0 space.
In that time (and for the whole of that time) celest consistantly harrassed and limited xelas operations in fountain. They were a constant thorn in the side of xelas.
The op's question has somewhat been forgotten in the last couple of pages in this thread "Is this the end of xelas?". I can only state what I saw in my breif time there.
Xelas is now a mere shadow of an alliance. Even before the Outpost was attacked key corps had begun to take down installations in the surrounding systems and move out of fountain. Other corps simply left including, perhaps most insidously DARK-RISING. My former corp actually merged with DARK and several other corps days before the attack. I would not be surprised if their leaving was noted by a spy for Celest or whether DARK themselves had some knowledge of the attack.
Despite there being over 140 peeps in alliance online during the assult (and over 14 hours to come up with a strategy to defend the Outpost) I dont think they were able to mount much more than a pitiful collection of lesser bs and cruisers. The majority of the alliance remained silent throughout the assult. This actually shouldnt come as a shock to anyone who has been in fountain for the past couple of weeks. I think there was only a handful of times any decent gangs were formed at all. Celest pretty much had free reign of the place. In xelas pilots defense, whenever a gang was formed celest would simply log out. You talk highly of "bring the fight", well actually whenever it was brought you logged!
As for whether BOB had any control over the runnings of the area of fountain is questionable. I never saw any bob gangs help or respond to celest but the whole time there was a sense of forboding within alliance chat that we were there by bobs grace and that we were merely caretaking the area for them.
On the strategic issue of opening up this other front, i must commend the organiser and planner of the assult. Whether is is merely a ruse, faint or proper offensive into BOBs flank is irrelevent. It will/has drawn attention to fountain in general and BOB will have to commit resources to the retaking of the outpost. Xelas appeared to be a spent force. At the very least it has successfully crippled an ally of BOB, perhaps to the point of no return. I cannot see xelas retaking the outpost unaided.
Please bear in mind that these comments are from a person relatively new to eve. I make no claims to authority on the subject, though I am a student of Military history and tactics and of political sciences.
True credit for the taking of the Outpost should go to both Ascn as well as celest. The former for supplying the needed capital ships and for the brilliance of this diversionry strategy and to celest for weakening the ability for xelas to resist in the first place.
Hopefully I wont get blacklisted for these comments...
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Jazz Bo
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:21:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Jazz Bo on 26/10/2006 08:22:01
Originally by: Assens Letta
Originally by: Proxay
Humour me.
oh...they will... look at this discussion and u will see that 
Originally by: Galavet
Adelon Cypher of CLS had about 200 bookmarks in his hold when he warped in on our dread killing.
well this is something to be expected, Celes comes in the defence of xendie claiming that they have proof of The Horde CiC used a "lame" tatic... and they claim to have proof and insinuate that it was prepositated....
link to that kill
and yet... the bm¦s they survive ? looking at BoB killboard it seems so... but on Zorba ship none survived... amazing... what a stroke of luck that was...
They did survive on Zorba's ship. He just edited his loss mail before posting it on your boards. We'll never know how many there were as there's the "**** Truncated - mail is too large ****" message.
There was no way he was transporting those BMs either. I was playing Cat and Mouse with six of them, Zorba kept following me around and locking me in fights... although he had no modules fitted on his ship.
In case you're going to try and argue I faked the kill mail, here's a picture.
1. Trying to create lag with hundreds of BMs in cargo
2. Editing his loss mail to hide it from the public
Nice going.
Quote:
Pew pew... ka-boom.... pew pew... squishhh
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:23:00 -
[154]
Greetings Pershphanie.
Answers and insights inline.
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: Assens Letta
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
1)
CLS != CELES - prove one of our guys pulled something like that and he'd be booted immediately. We've done it before for pulling lame stuff (logging in combat for instance) and we'll do it again.
what does this prove ? or does it just prove that sometimes accidents happen despite what your twisted minds thinks ?
Thats to be expected from ASCN tbh. Apperantly ASCN likes to complain about things and then do them their self. (ex - AAA's alledged use of lag bombs, or how awfull bob members are for spamming the forums and "spinning stories" and then make threads like this). For some reason it is ok for ASCN to accuse someone of doing things which they consider horrible and then do the same things using the "well someone else did it first" clause.
The Horde pilot I'm picking on pointed out that his pilot very well may have been moving bms to an alt, a friend etc. The proof that is not the case is multifold:
1) Undocked from the station and waited to be killed
2) After dying, a tech 2 Horde hauler undocks as well, presumably to take advantage of the lag created by the vigil's demise and subsequent BM spammage in the can
3) His vigil was UNFITTED. No modules at all.
This just screams exploit. He WANTED to die so the bms would lag the grid and let the t2 hauler escape.
In contrast, the ASCN guy at least had a fitting appropriate to the ship. He was fitted, at least, and few enough bms exploded such that the killmail isn't truncated. It may have been an attempt at an exploit and perhaps not. I'm leaning towards not, but I wasn't there and can't state unequivocally.
Originally by: pershphanie
The only thing that suprising here is that CELES would fly with people using exploits. I am honestly shocked by that. For all the bad things that come to mind when I think of CELES there are a few positives that i did respect. The most important being CELES's clean game play. I'm not just talking about them not using exploits, that is a minimum standard that should be expected by everyone in eve. I've never known CELES to log off in combat, never use tactics which are questionable in terms of game mechanics, dishonor a 1v1, etc...
Thank you for the kind words. We pride ourselves on bravery, honesty & integrity. It is nice to see this recognized :)
Originally by: pershphanie
It is a sad day for CELES. It appears they are willing to give up any moral highground they had left just to win a single battle against bob (well sort of bob, mostly xelas).
My question to CELES is do you condone the use of boarderline tactics such as lagbombs? Were you aware such methods were going to be used in your op before it happend? If not do you plan to continue to fly with ASCN after they involved you directly in ops where such deplorable "tactics" were used? I'd hate to think CELES would just ignore such abominations. Say it aint so joe.
If you look closely at the ASCN killmail, you'll see that the pilot died in H8-ZTO. According to the map so conveniently placed on your killboard, that is precisely 43 jumps from PNQY-Y, where CELES and ASCN forces were operating. I'm really curious how this kill relates, particularly considering the point that it may not have been an attempt at an exploit, judging from the killmail.
To more concretely answer your question - the other questions below it aren't valid as this event didn't occur during our operation, or even within 40 jumps of it - no, we do not condone any sort of exploitative tactics. Honestly, for myself at least, I'm not even aware of these tactics. The horde kill is the first time I've heard of such a thing, using bms in an attempt to lag the opposition. *continued* due to character limit :/
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CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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Gungankllr
Caldari
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:28:00 -
[155]
 I think using exploits is retarded.
I'm sure his CEO has spoken with him about it, to find out just what happened.
If there was malicious intent, it will get dealt with.
Moving on.
Impressive victory for BoB. I was going to write up a more flowery post, but then all the animosity and wang waving convinced me otherwise.
GM's in local, station ping pong, and whining. All the makings of a beautiful war.
Hidden in this signature is a secret message.
Send me isk, Caracals cost money.
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:32:00 -
[156]
*continued*
Just like I had never heard of such a horribly pansy tactic as dropping dozens of cans at a station undock point in order to lag and/or disrupt a pilots ability to undock. This tactic was used against us by none other than Sir Molle back when bob was actually trying to enforce their claim on Fountain a few months ago.
Quote:
[ 2006.09.02 12:13:54 ] batloard > please dont drop cans at undock point or i will petition
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:10 ] Zenst > i was marking undock point
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:19 ] Kazellis > were trading ammo
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:22 ] batloard > ok
further on, after a corpmate dies in an interceptor due to lag and inability to warp:
[ 2006.09.02 12:30:34 ] Shrike > "i got bumped by a can since i undocked 20 times into 20 hostiles, i want my ship back"
To be honest, I was shocked that pilots that I THOUGHT prided themselves on combat ability had to stoop so low. I still shake my head when I think of it :(
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CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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Pehova Mindtriq
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:39:00 -
[157]
Originally by: pershphanie
Thats to be expected from ASCN tbh. Apperantly ASCN likes to complain about things and then do them their self. (ex - AAA's alledged use of lag bombs, or how awfull bob members are for spamming the forums and "spinning stories" and then make threads like this). For some reason it is ok for ASCN to accuse someone of doing things which they consider horrible and then do the same things using the "well someone else did it first" clause.
The only thing that suprising here is that CELES would fly with people using exploits. I am honestly shocked by that. For all the bad things that come to mind when I think of CELES there are a few positives that i did respect. The most important being CELES's clean game play. I'm not just talking about them not using exploits, that is a minimum standard that should be expected by everyone in eve. I've never known CELES to log off in combat, never use tactics which are questionable in terms of game mechanics, dishonor a 1v1, etc...
It is a sad day for CELES. It appears they are willing to give up any moral highground they had left just to win a single battle against bob (well sort of bob, mostly xelas).
My question to CELES is do you condone the use of boarderline tactics such as lagbombs? Were you aware such methods were going to be used in your op before it happend? If not do you plan to continue to fly with ASCN after they involved you directly in ops where such deplorable "tactics" were used? I'd hate to think CELES would just ignore such abominations. Say it aint so joe.
Just because we ally ASCN doesn't mean we support borderline methods and tactics such as lagbombs. It's not like BOB support these methods and yet they are allied with people that do. You can't be responsible for other alliance members action and we can't either.
Celes/Toxin vs BOB |
pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:42:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Quote:
[ 2006.09.02 12:13:54 ] batloard > please dont drop cans at undock point or i will petition
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:10 ] Zenst > i was marking undock point
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:19 ] Kazellis > were trading ammo
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:22 ] batloard > ok
further on, after a corpmate dies in an interceptor due to lag and inability to warp:
[ 2006.09.02 12:30:34 ] Shrike > "i got bumped by a can since i undocked 20 times into 20 hostiles, i want my ship back"
To be honest, I was shocked that pilots that I THOUGHT prided themselves on combat ability had to stoop so low. I still shake my head when I think of it :(
Dropping a few jetcans to mark spots for BMing isnt unusual. Nor is giving a corp mate ammo unusual nor is it exploitive in nature. I wasnt there, I can not comment further on that. First I've heard of it.
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Buzee
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:44:00 -
[159]
Whatever it is dat BOb are saying, fact of the matter is that they will have to stop playing cards in tpar or whatever and move to sort out teh xelas station. that in itself is a victory because you have forced the enemy to come back home to dislodge you, even if it means just a fraction of bob is diverted from ascn space( i know even just 1 of BOB corps can sort it, its just the fact that they decided you have to come do it )null
I have seen BOB recruit a lot of ****ty pilots into their ranks, some of them will be whipped into shape, some are just hardcoded with stupidity(no names heh. But I tell you, if everyone wants to have guaranteed pvp fun, now is time to rattle BOB, not by pos wars but by various large groups running thru their space. I guess if D2 (supposedly arch enemies who never want to fight BOB :/), AAA, V, LV, RZR,RAGOONS plus all the minor fanbois. BOB will be more than thrilled to the challenge. Ping ponging BOB in their space is the key. EVERYONE should eat out of BOB pie \o/
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.26 08:53:00 -
[160]
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Quote:
[ 2006.09.02 12:13:54 ] batloard > please dont drop cans at undock point or i will petition
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:10 ] Zenst > i was marking undock point
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:19 ] Kazellis > were trading ammo
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:22 ] batloard > ok
further on, after a corpmate dies in an interceptor due to lag and inability to warp:
[ 2006.09.02 12:30:34 ] Shrike > "i got bumped by a can since i undocked 20 times into 20 hostiles, i want my ship back"
To be honest, I was shocked that pilots that I THOUGHT prided themselves on combat ability had to stoop so low. I still shake my head when I think of it :(
Dropping a few jetcans to mark spots for BMing isnt unusual. Nor is giving a corp mate ammo unusual nor is it exploitive in nature. I wasnt there, I can not comment further on that. First I've heard of it.
I was there. There were dozens of cans at the undock point. Here's some my contribution to local:
[ 2006.09.02 12:14:48 ] Gyrn Fzirth > its not an exploit its there for a reason
[ 2006.09.02 12:15:26 ] Zenst > is there some form of expliot with cans batloard?
[ 2006.09.02 12:15:51 ] Gyrn Fzirth > yes
[ 2006.09.02 12:16:07 ] Gyrn Fzirth > prevent alignment, additional lag
[ 2006.09.02 12:16:25 ] Zenst > riiiight
[ 2006.09.02 12:16:27 ] Gyrn Fzirth > dun matter
[ 2006.09.02 12:16:47 ] Gyrn Fzirth > we don't have enough online to fight anyway
[ 2006.09.02 12:16:56 ] batloard > i cant even ondock
[ 2006.09.02 12:17:03 ] Rhakel > since when is it a human right to align and not drop a can? :/
[ 2006.09.02 12:17:19 ] Kazellis > duuuur
[ 2006.09.02 12:17:22 ] Gyrn Fzirth > we could leave it up to a gm instead of speculate...
[ 2006.09.02 12:17:24 ] Kazellis > you undocking is not the point ;)
[ 2006.09.02 12:18:11 ] batloard > heres a thought, come back in an hour or so and we will have numbers
[ 2006.09.02 12:18:13 ] LaughingClown > gyrn denied.. ohh wait...
[ 2006.09.02 12:18:20 ] Gyrn Fzirth > ?
[ 2006.09.02 12:18:52 ] Gyrn Fzirth > I don't really care. We all kill and are killed in turn
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:13 ] Kazellis > Unfortunatly I enjoy making people suffer
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:13 ] Gyrn Fzirth > tactics are just that
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:19 ] Gyrn Fzirth > a means to accomplish a goal
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:27 ] algorythm > kill? arent we all here to mine veldspar? :o
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:30 ] Gyrn Fzirth > if the tactic is cheap, some people will go with it anyway
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:47 ] Gyrn Fzirth > placing cans at an undock point may or may not be an exploit - I'm no gm so I can't say
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:50 ] Gyrn Fzirth > but it is cheap
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:56 ] Gyrn Fzirth > and its beneath pilots of your calibre
[ 2006.09.02 12:22:25 ] Zenst > 4,234km exactly beneath me
[ 2006.09.02 12:22:42 ] Zenst > cfost like 20 isk for the ammo
[ 2006.09.02 12:22:54 ] Zenst > so yeah , your right
[ 2006.09.02 12:23:12 ] Zenst > its cheap and beneath me
[ 2006.09.02 12:23:20 ] Gyrn Fzirth > ok - its beneath SOME of your pilots calibre
[ 2006.09.02 12:24:07 ] Zenst > it being there dosn;t effect your playing style in ANY way
===========
Truthfully I was shocked - the leader of the single most powerful player force in the game and his massive fleet - exploiting game mechanics to gain an _advantage_ over a single corporation's pilots. That moment a large chunk of the respect I have for bob as a whole flew out the window. My respect or lack thereof probably means very little to you. To me, the respect of my friends and enemies is paramount, but I know not everyone thinks this way...
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CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:11:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Greetings Pershphanie.
Answers and insights inline. explination:
Thank you for the reasonable response. Few points though. I dont think having a few 500 isk mods on a ship shows intent. It just shows he grabbed a fitted t1 frig out of a hanger instead of an unfitted one, i dont think there is a deeper meaning behind that. The guy warped to a hostile pos in a t1 frig with a cargo full of bm's during a fleet. This action is pretty self explanitory. I wont debate how many bms or what the ship fittings of the t1 frig were as that is just tip-toeing arround/rationalizing the issue.
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
If you look closely at the ASCN killmail, you'll see that the pilot died in H8-ZTO. According to the map so conveniently placed on your killboard, that is precisely 43 jumps from PNQY-Y, where CELES and ASCN forces were operating.
Saying the fight took place 43 jumps away is a valid point. You were not there phisically. This is true.
However as demonstrated by coordinated CELES/ASCN ops in fountian you are to some extent allied with ASCN. So I guess my question is how many jumps away does CELES consider it acceptable for allies to start using exploits in a joint war effort? The same system is obviously not acceptable to you, thats good. Do you have a specific policy on this? Is it acceptable for your allies in a war to exploit 1 system out or do you do it by region? Or do you use a tier system depending on severity? (Example - logging off in combat is ok as long as they are in a different system, log on traps are legit as long as they are done in a different constalation, lag bombs ok in different regions, macro mining ok as log as its 2 regions away.)
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
no, we do not condone any sort of exploitative tactics.
ofc not. I do not believe CELES would ever use such tactics. But more specifically my question is; Do you ally/fly with pilots who do use those tactics?
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Riddari
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 09:23:00 -
[162]
ASCN does not condone use of exploits.
Official standing.
Of course that is not something that BOB FORUM SQUAD OMGBBQ likes to hear so they invent incidents (honest, I saw it, he really did have bookmarks in his can) or they hammer repeatedly about a single member who did have the bookmarks (and is possibly a BOB spy cause hey... its just like recording teamspeak, screenshooting forums, giving fake info on teamspeak and the other BOBtics).
¼+¼
a history
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Uglyone
Deep Can Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 09:24:00 -
[163]
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Greetings Pershphanie.
Answers and insights inline. explination:
Thank you for the reasonable response. Few points though. I dont think having a few 500 isk mods on a ship shows intent. It just shows he grabbed a fitted t1 frig out of a hanger instead of an unfitted one, i dont think there is a deeper meaning behind that. The guy warped to a hostile pos in a t1 frig with a cargo full of bm's during a fleet. This action is pretty self explanitory. I wont debate how many bms or what the ship fittings of the t1 frig were as that is just tip-toeing arround/rationalizing the issue.
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
If you look closely at the ASCN killmail, you'll see that the pilot died in H8-ZTO. According to the map so conveniently placed on your killboard, that is precisely 43 jumps from PNQY-Y, where CELES and ASCN forces were operating.
Saying the fight took place 43 jumps away is a valid point. You were not there phisically. This is true.
However as demonstrated by coordinated CELES/ASCN ops in fountian you are to some extent allied with ASCN. So I guess my question is how many jumps away does CELES consider it acceptable for allies to start using exploits in a joint war effort? The same system is obviously not acceptable to you, thats good. Do you have a specific policy on this? Is it acceptable for your allies in a war to exploit 1 system out or do you do it by region? Or do you use a tier system depending on severity? (Example - logging off in combat is ok as long as they are in a different system, log on traps are legit as long as they are done in a different constalation, lag bombs ok in different regions, macro mining ok as log as its 2 regions away.)
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
no, we do not condone any sort of exploitative tactics.
ofc not. I do not believe CELES would ever use such tactics. But more specifically my question is; Do you ally/fly with pilots who do use those tactics?
before you ask anyone else that question why dont you ask yourself.
your whole argument looks like a troll.
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SmEdD
Amarr
Nocturnal Soldiers
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Posted - 2006.10.26 09:32:00 -
[164]
2006.10.26 09:23:05
Notify The station Yoshimi Outpost has been captured by Dark Nebula Gallente Division corporation!
Good to see how well defended 4 Large POS's and 1 Small POS plus the Outpost was . . .
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:32:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Gyrn Fzirth on 26/10/2006 09:34:04
Originally by: pershphanie
Thank you for the reasonable response. Few points though. I dont think having a few 500 isk mods on a ship shows intent. It just shows he grabbed a fitted t1 frig out of a hanger instead of an unfitted one, i dont think there is a deeper meaning behind that. The guy warped to a hostile pos in a t1 frig with a cargo full of bm's during a fleet. This action is pretty self explanitory. I wont debate how many bms or what the ship fittings of the t1 frig were as that is just tip-toeing arround/rationalizing the issue.
It at least shows the _possibility_ of intent, vs having no mods at all. As I said some few posts above, it may have been an attempt at exploitative tactics - I wasn't there and can't state with any authority one way or the other.
Originally by: pershphanie
Saying the fight took place 43 jumps away is a valid point. You were not there phisically. This is true.
However as demonstrated by coordinated CELES/ASCN ops in fountian you are to some extent allied with ASCN. So I guess my question is how many jumps away does CELES consider it acceptable for allies to start using exploits in a joint war effort? The same system is obviously not acceptable to you, thats good. Do you have a specific policy on this? Is it acceptable for your allies in a war to exploit 1 system out or do you do it by region? Or do you use a tier system depending on severity? (Example - logging off in combat is ok as long as they are in a different system, log on traps are legit as long as they are done in a different constalation, lag bombs ok in different regions, macro mining ok as log as its 2 regions away.)
The operations in H8 have nothing to do with CELES other than they have the same goal of making bob assets explode. Anything that occurs in H8 is irrelevant to the discussion of Xelas or CELES as neither have pilots or assets in or even near it. In other words, there's no joint op between CELES and ASCN anywhere other than PNQY-Y (yet.)
We aren't in any sort of alliance with anyone other than ourselves. We coordinate with organizations that have similar goals, most of which have policies that differ from our own. If an alliance can't keep their pilots from exploiting, how could we be expected to keep a friendly organization's pilots in line?
Short form: Exploiting sucks, but its up to the exploiter's leadership to appropriately deal with each incident as it occurs.
With that being said, what if the leadership condones or even make use of exploits themselves? Witness Sir Molle/Shrike in a-1 via chatlogs I've pasted above.
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
no, we do not condone any sort of exploitative tactics.
ofc not. I do not believe CELES would ever use such tactics. But more specifically my question is; Do you ally/fly with pilots who do use those tactics?
How are we supposed to decide that? Someone comes to us and asks for or offers assistance, should we ask "do you or your pilots exploit?" Of course the answer will be no, regardless of the truth. We know which organizations are more trustworthy than others and act accordingly.
Let me give you an example that may hit close to home, and our hypothetical response.
In the chatlogs I posted, wherein Sir Molle was directing his pilots to drop cans at the station's undock point, had the situation been similar but different - lets say a friendly alliance and CELES combined forces locking down a system - CELES would not have participated in the tactics considered exploitative, and if it was egregious enough, probably have broken off from the op entirely. We would've had words with the leadership of the pilots that were using the exploitative tactics to resolve the issue to the point where noone is exploiting, or we are not involved. Contrast that with Sir Molle, and there you have the difference between CELES and BoB, beyond the numbers and assets.
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CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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Pehova Mindtriq
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:33:00 -
[166]
Originally by: SmEdD
2006.10.26 09:23:05
Notify The station Yoshimi Outpost has been captured by Dark Nebula Gallente Division corporation!
Good to see how well defended 4 Large POS's and 1 Small POS plus the Outpost was . . .
The POS'es are still there.
Celes/Toxin vs BOB |
Mitch Taylor
Caldari
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:39:00 -
[167]
I have stated on other posts within the EVE forums. Dark left Xelas as we had achieved what we set out to achieve. We built the outpost and increased the activity.
On Sunday Dark and Nophex Quit the alliance. This resulted in 200 in game members leaving an alliance of 1800. A bug resulted in the outpost system losing sov at exactly the same time. (Our death stars were pulled down a few days before, but another alliance corp had put some up some 6 days previous) GMs stopped celes from taking the station, so I assume Celes asked ASCN for some assistance. ACSN got a big fleet together and went and picked on the little kids. Not overly immpressed to be honest, I would prefer to see ASCN defend their own space.
As for it being the end to Xelas, I severly doubt that. Xelas have lived in fountain for a long time, they did not have an outpost for the majority of that time. They didnt even really use the stations. My sizable corp lived quite comfortably out of 2 large pos. The ingame mechanics allow you to do everything at a pos if you have the logistics in place. (except refine loot! which sucks tbh)
As for Dark knowing something of the invasion. Well to be honest I expected an attempt by Celes, but the ASCN involvment was surprising.
Xelas had just lost two major corps, a leader and some heavily armed towers protecting the outpost. It was the perfect time to strike.
As for getting one over on bob? well thats just rubbish, bob had no involvement in the outpost at all in fact only one bob corp even had an office there.
I built the outpost running several accounts. The man hours were from my corp in the main with a fleet supporting from xelas corps on the day of deployment. I also paid for the majority of the outpost, so as for a great blow to xelas, I dont think so. Since im the only person here who sweated over it I think they will be alright.
I would recommend BOB do not waste there time taking the outpost back. Go squeeze ASCNS balls in the south they will leave Celes to it. Then Xelas will have no issues taking the station back themselves.
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pershphanie
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:42:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Truthfully I was shocked - the leader of the single most powerful player force in the game and his massive fleet - exploiting game mechanics to gain an _advantage_ over a single corporation's pilots. That moment a large chunk of the respect I have for bob as a whole flew out the window. My respect or lack thereof probably means very little to you. To me, the respect of my friends and enemies is paramount, but I know not everyone thinks this way...
Sorry. I dont see the exploit there.
I wasnt there so I'll have to speculate. Please do not consider my response as actual facts of the event since I really do not know what happened.
There is a BIG difference between filling a ship full of information (bms) for the purpose of causing the server to have to process more information causing the delay and putting up cans for you to bumb into to distract someones warp. (again, im just assuming that is what happend. i dont really know).
Intentionally causing the server delay is going outside game mechanics because the server is an external force that would not exist in an actual galaxy(in an RP sense). You can not buy a server in jita (would be nice though). You can not buy a CCP server hacking skill nor is there a BPO for a CCP server delay modual.
A jet can is a "real" item in eve. All ships really can produce them. If you were really flying a space ship out of a space station and someone placed cans in front of the undocking bay you really might bump into them. They really might cause issues with your allignment. These cans are capible of carrying loads as big as small ships. If you were flying a space ship (even a large one) and you bumped into something as large as a space shuttle you might notice it.
When someone takes a physical object that exists in the eve universe and uses it to their advantage to destroy an enemy that is REALISTIC and completly within game mechanics. This is very much different than using server lag, somthing that doesnt exist in the eve galaxy(in an RP sense. hold off on the *****ing wise!).
As an experiment go out to your driveway, put a couple dozen metal garbage cans behind your car, back out through them. See if it has an effect on your cars allignment. Ill bet there is a chance it might. Thats what putting jet cans in from of a station would do. Realistic and inside game mechanics.
Then do a second experiment. Go on mapquest and print out 500 sets of driving directions. Then run out into the street and throw all of those directions up in the air at the same time. See if life moves in slow motion for the next hour or if life suddenly ceases to exist for the next 20 minutes causing you to uncontrolably run out into a busy intersection when life starts up again. I'm pretty sure that wouldnt happen. Unrealistic and outside game mechanics.
See the difference?
Originally by: CYVOK
If you surrender now we will consider letting you guys keep Fountain.
-CYVOK-
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:49:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
I have stated on other posts within the EVE forums. Dark left Xelas as we had achieved what we set out to achieve. We built the outpost and increased the activity.
On Sunday Dark and Nophex Quit the alliance. This resulted in 200 in game members leaving an alliance of 1800. A bug resulted in the outpost system losing sov at exactly the same time. (Our death stars were pulled down a few days before, but another alliance corp had put some up some 6 days previous) GMs stopped celes from taking the station, so I assume Celes asked ASCN for some assistance. ACSN got a big fleet together and went and picked on the little kids. Not overly immpressed to be honest, I would prefer to see ASCN defend their own space.
As for it being the end to Xelas, I severly doubt that. Xelas have lived in fountain for a long time, they did not have an outpost for the majority of that time. They didnt even really use the stations. My sizable corp lived quite comfortably out of 2 large pos. The ingame mechanics allow you to do everything at a pos if you have the logistics in place. (except refine loot! which sucks tbh)
As for Dark knowing something of the invasion. Well to be honest I expected an attempt by Celes, but the ASCN involvment was surprising.
Xelas had just lost two major corps, a leader and some heavily armed towers protecting the outpost. It was the perfect time to strike.
As for getting one over on bob? well thats just rubbish, bob had no involvement in the outpost at all in fact only one bob corp even had an office there.
I built the outpost running several accounts. The man hours were from my corp in the main with a fleet supporting from xelas corps on the day of deployment. I also paid for the majority of the outpost, so as for a great blow to xelas, I dont think so. Since im the only person here who sweated over it I think they will be alright.
I would recommend BOB do not waste there time taking the outpost back. Go squeeze ASCNS balls in the south they will leave Celes to it. Then Xelas will have no issues taking the station back themselves.
You're neglecting the fact that you had bob assist by camping CELES for two days straight while you deployed the outpost.
Also, from the Alliances info page on Eve-Online.com:
XS consists of 11 member corporations, 512 pilots reside under its sovereignty.
Now, I may not be a math whiz, but 1800 - 200 is equal to 1600. That means roughly 1088 pilots have left in the mean time. What gives? Is my math wrong? Is the Eve-Online.com alliance info page out of date? At the bottom of the page it says "pages generated daily" so I don't believe so.
Dark jumped an embattled, sinking ship and hastened its demise.
==========
CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:55:00 -
[170]
Originally by: pershphanie
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Truthfully I was shocked - the leader of the single most powerful player force in the game and his massive fleet - exploiting game mechanics to gain an _advantage_ over a single corporation's pilots. That moment a large chunk of the respect I have for bob as a whole flew out the window. My respect or lack thereof probably means very little to you. To me, the respect of my friends and enemies is paramount, but I know not everyone thinks this way...
Sorry. I dont see the exploit there.
I wasnt there so I'll have to speculate. Please do not consider my response as actual facts of the event since I really do not know what happened.
There is a BIG difference between filling a ship full of information (bms) for the purpose of causing the server to have to process more information causing the delay and putting up cans for you to bumb into to distract someones warp. (again, im just assuming that is what happend. i dont really know).
Intentionally causing the server delay is going outside game mechanics because the server is an external force that would not exist in an actual galaxy(in an RP sense). You can not buy a server in jita (would be nice though). You can not buy a CCP server hacking skill nor is there a BPO for a CCP server delay modual.
A jet can is a "real" item in eve. All ships really can produce them. If you were really flying a space ship out of a space station and someone placed cans in front of the undocking bay you really might bump into them. They really might cause issues with your allignment. These cans are capible of carrying loads as big as small ships. If you were flying a space ship (even a large one) and you bumped into something as large as a space shuttle you might notice it.
When someone takes a physical object that exists in the eve universe and uses it to their advantage to destroy an enemy that is REALISTIC and completly within game mechanics. This is very much different than using server lag, somthing that doesnt exist in the eve galaxy(in an RP sense. hold off on the *****ing wise!).
As an experiment go out to your driveway, put a couple dozen metal garbage cans behind your car, back out through them. See if it has an effect on your cars allignment. Ill bet there is a chance it might. Thats what putting jet cans in from of a station would do. Realistic and inside game mechanics.
Then do a second experiment. Go on mapquest and print out 500 sets of driving directions. Then run out into the street and throw all of those directions up in the air at the same time. See if life moves in slow motion for the next hour or if life suddenly ceases to exist for the next 20 minutes causing you to uncontrolably run out into a busy intersection when life starts up again. I'm pretty sure that wouldnt happen. Unrealistic and outside game mechanics.
See the difference?
You may or may not have noticed one of my statements during the event - I'll repost it here for clarity:
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:47 ] Gyrn Fzirth > placing cans at an undock point may or may not be an exploit - I'm no gm so I can't say
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:50 ] Gyrn Fzirth > but it is cheap
[ 2006.09.02 12:19:56 ] Gyrn Fzirth > and its beneath pilots of your calibre
For all I know it is within game mechanics. As most things it is probably situational. One thing I DO know is that, if it was within game mechanics it was cheap. Cheap tactics at a MINIMUM - at maximum an exploit of game mechanics (load more crap on screen == more lag - out of game effect per your own explanation) were expressed there. The fact that the leadership of BoB had to stoop so low sends some clear messages... for those with eyes or ears... or a heartbeat.
==========
CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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Pehova Mindtriq
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:55:00 -
[171]
gyrn you have too look at the in-game alliance rankings for correct member number.
Celes/Toxin vs BOB |
Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:58:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Pehova Mindtriq
gyrn you have too look at the in-game alliance rankings for correct member number.
I'm busy slaving away on 15 different remote consoles. For my edification and that of the eve public, what is the current number? If I'm way off I'll happily retract my statements based on significantly incorrect numbers....
==========
CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
|
Pehova Mindtriq
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:02:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Originally by: Pehova Mindtriq
gyrn you have too look at the in-game alliance rankings for correct member number.
I'm busy slaving away on 15 different remote consoles. For my edification and that of the eve public, what is the current number? If I'm way off I'll happily retract my statements based on significantly incorrect numbers....
Xelas have 1607 members
Celes/Toxin vs BOB |
Proxay
Gallente
Fallen Angel's
Xelas Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:03:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
I have stated on other posts within the EVE forums. Dark left Xelas as we had achieved what we set out to achieve. We built the outpost and increased the activity.
On Sunday Dark and Nophex Quit the alliance. This resulted in 200 in game members leaving an alliance of 1800. A bug resulted in the outpost system losing sov at exactly the same time. (Our death stars were pulled down a few days before, but another alliance corp had put some up some 6 days previous) GMs stopped celes from taking the station, so I assume Celes asked ASCN for some assistance. ACSN got a big fleet together and went and picked on the little kids. Not overly immpressed to be honest, I would prefer to see ASCN defend their own space.
As for it being the end to Xelas, I severly doubt that. Xelas have lived in fountain for a long time, they did not have an outpost for the majority of that time. They didnt even really use the stations. My sizable corp lived quite comfortably out of 2 large pos. The ingame mechanics allow you to do everything at a pos if you have the logistics in place. (except refine loot! which sucks tbh)
As for Dark knowing something of the invasion. Well to be honest I expected an attempt by Celes, but the ASCN involvment was surprising.
Xelas had just lost two major corps, a leader and some heavily armed towers protecting the outpost. It was the perfect time to strike.
As for getting one over on bob? well thats just rubbish, bob had no involvement in the outpost at all in fact only one bob corp even had an office there.
I built the outpost running several accounts. The man hours were from my corp in the main with a fleet supporting from xelas corps on the day of deployment. I also paid for the majority of the outpost, so as for a great blow to xelas, I dont think so. Since im the only person here who sweated over it I think they will be alright.
I would recommend BOB do not waste there time taking the outpost back. Go squeeze ASCNS balls in the south they will leave Celes to it. Then Xelas will have no issues taking the station back themselves.
Sorry mate, but we just reclaimed Yoshimi.
|
Mitch Taylor
Caldari
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:04:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
Originally by: Pehova Mindtriq
gyrn you have too look at the in-game alliance rankings for correct member number.
I'm busy slaving away on 15 different remote consoles. For my edification and that of the eve public, what is the current number? If I'm way off I'll happily retract my statements based on significantly incorrect numbers....
Im thinking you talk too much?
Am I wrong?
|
Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:05:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Proxay
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
I have stated on other posts within the EVE forums. Dark left Xelas as we had achieved what we set out to achieve. We built the outpost and increased the activity.
On Sunday Dark and Nophex Quit the alliance. This resulted in 200 in game members leaving an alliance of 1800. A bug resulted in the outpost system losing sov at exactly the same time. (Our death stars were pulled down a few days before, but another alliance corp had put some up some 6 days previous) GMs stopped celes from taking the station, so I assume Celes asked ASCN for some assistance. ACSN got a big fleet together and went and picked on the little kids. Not overly immpressed to be honest, I would prefer to see ASCN defend their own space.
As for it being the end to Xelas, I severly doubt that. Xelas have lived in fountain for a long time, they did not have an outpost for the majority of that time. They didnt even really use the stations. My sizable corp lived quite comfortably out of 2 large pos. The ingame mechanics allow you to do everything at a pos if you have the logistics in place. (except refine loot! which sucks tbh)
As for Dark knowing something of the invasion. Well to be honest I expected an attempt by Celes, but the ASCN involvment was surprising.
Xelas had just lost two major corps, a leader and some heavily armed towers protecting the outpost. It was the perfect time to strike.
As for getting one over on bob? well thats just rubbish, bob had no involvement in the outpost at all in fact only one bob corp even had an office there.
I built the outpost running several accounts. The man hours were from my corp in the main with a fleet supporting from xelas corps on the day of deployment. I also paid for the majority of the outpost, so as for a great blow to xelas, I dont think so. Since im the only person here who sweated over it I think they will be alright.
I would recommend BOB do not waste there time taking the outpost back. Go squeeze ASCNS balls in the south they will leave Celes to it. Then Xelas will have no issues taking the station back themselves.
Sorry mate, but we just reclaimed Yoshimi.
It'll be like that for a minimum of 4 more days, until someone's pos can claim sovereignty. You'll see the station go back and forth.
Congrats though :)
==========
CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
|
Mitch Taylor
Caldari
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:05:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Proxay
Sorry mate, but we just reclaimed Yoshimi.
Good Lad, I knew you would.
|
Mitch Taylor
Caldari
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:07:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
You're neglecting the fact that you had bob assist by camping CELES for two days straight while you deployed the outpost.
EDIT:
*retracted statements based on incorrect information*
Dark jumped an embattled, sinking ship and hastened its demise.
This is not correct, I timed assembling the outpost with your greater half outbreak leaving you to npc in core.
There was no BOB camp in Core at the time of deployment 0600 hrs and there was no celes attempt to stop us putting it up.
Kind regards,
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Gyrn Fzirth
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:11:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth
You're neglecting the fact that you had bob assist by camping CELES for two days straight while you deployed the outpost.
EDIT:
*retracted statements based on incorrect information*
Dark jumped an embattled, sinking ship and hastened its demise.
This is not correct, I timed assembling the outpost with your greater half outbreak leaving you to npc in core.
There was no BOB camp in Core at the time of deployment 0600 hrs and there was no celes attempt to stop us putting it up.
Kind regards,
Which date, specifically? Bob only camped us with any vigor for a few days. Before they did so, no outpost. After they did so, outpost. As soon as the outpost was up, bob left. There's no coincidence there.
==========
CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:15:00 -
[180]
u say bob camped you, but thats wrong mate,
it was only bnc that camped you in - and we are still not sure why u didnt fight.
short summary of the events,
when bnc moved in we had a few small skirmishes, 50/50 favour from what i saw, (3bs fights that sort of crap) and then we had a large fleet fight that ended well for us, and after that u guys hardly sowed urselfes for a week and a bit longer,
oretty broing where we mostly sat at the station, even went ratting and went sometimes after some lone ratters of urs.
int hat time we had only very few engagements,
then bnc moved out, not deeming it worth staying there.
as i said, we didnt understand why u hardly logged on anymore, giving us the challenge u couldve given us.
-
Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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