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Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2006.11.14 18:34:00 - [631] Originally by: Aramendel While it would certainly would make it better than it is now you might as well just remove the apoc from the game then. I wouldn't go that far. Thanks to its fitting and bonuses, the Apoc has a definite edge over both the Abaddon and Armageddon when used as a fleet Tachyon platform. It will keep firing far longer than the others. I think given the Abaddon's inevitable drift towards autocannons, the Apoc will remain the Amarr fleet sniper BS.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 19:23:00 - [632] I was referring to Originally by: Karash Amerius How about making the Abaddon go in the same vien as the Augoror? Bonus: 10% Cap Reduction Large Energy Turret / 10% Armor HP per level. I think that would be a good "role" I would really be interested where the apoc would be preferable then. Certainly not in fleet warefare.
XFreedomX	Posted - 2006.11.14 20:50:00 - [633] I do not understand why everyone have their heart set on changing the Abaddon. I like it just the way it is. Put 8x1400mm T2 on it and armor tank it to hell. No CAP issues here, and mid slot 2 tracking comp and 2 sensor booster.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:41:00 - [634] Originally by: XFreedomX I do not understand why everyone have their heart set on changing the Abaddon. I like it just the way it is. Put 8x1400mm T2 on it and armor tank it to hell. No CAP issues here, and mid slot 2 tracking comp and 2 sensor booster. So you dont plan on firing weapons? The ship can only fire for 2 minutes with T2 Tachs and a hold full of charges. If your going short range, with that many plates, how are you going to move? I would like to see two things. Change the from 5% to 10% per level for controlled burst. Change RoF bonus to Cap Recharge Rage Bonus say 20 % per level. That would change the 750 second base rate to 375 seconds at BS level 5. Actually I would suggest doing that in place of the cap bonus on all Amarr ships also, but this is about the Abaddon. Then the lasers use twice as much cap but the cap rechanges twice as fast. It evens out. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
XFreedomX	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:50:00 - [635] hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon. While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy. Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus. Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.14 22:08:00 - [636] Originally by: XFreedomX hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon. While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy. Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus. Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus. maybe YOU didnt noticed, but amarr dont want to use projectil weapons on their ship, wasting one or two bonuses and being still subpar to any other ship in same class, especially in shorter ranges and longer engagements. So please stop posting here with this kind of attitude towards amarr (tracking bonus to lasers, and suggesting to fit artillery at the same time, what are you smoking over there?). Thanks.
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 22:57:00 - [637] Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 14/11/2006 22:57:40 Originally by: XFreedomX hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon. While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy. Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus. Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus. that is the problem we shouldn't need to fit minnie weapons on an amarr ship with a bonus to amarr weapons CCP fix this freaking ship
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:11:00 - [638] i agree, as said in other posts imho the problem here is mostly about weapons and not for ship themselves the idea should be not to change the abaddon or maelstrom (even if its shielf boost need to be changed) to compete with rokh in offensive compartment... but to change the weapons because the umbalance is in weapon systems and not in ships
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:56:00 - [639] Originally by: Ath Amon i agree, as said in other posts imho the problem here is mostly about weapons and not for ship themselves well looking at the abaddon as it is now you cant really do much other than completely scrap the design and go back to square one. the whole idea behind it is wrong and proven not to work.
XFreedomX	Posted - 2006.11.15 00:35:00 - [640] I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem is not with the Amarr ships, the problem is with the beam weapon's energy consumption. Your BS already have the most CAP of any race and the best power grid, continue to increase that just make it a better platform for other weapon systems. Better to leave it as is, and reduce cap usage of all weapon's by XX% and likewise ammo capacity to counter the upcomming changes, or to introduce modules to reduce cap use for turret and ammo capacity.

Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.15 00:56:00 - [641] Finally got on the test server to try out the hyperion. Needless to say I was skeptical going in. The extra tankability is pretty decent but megathron is almost as good as a blastership and combined with the fact that rigs need power and megathron has more power, megathron will likely be the better design. I fully expected the Hyperion to be a tanking nos ship from it's bonuses but it seems it's powergrid prevents that, and nos doesn't seem to be very effective anymore, nos stats seem to be the same but they don't seeme to be working very good.... anyways, next I thought, well powergrid isn't an issue on snipers right? so I setup the hyperion as a sniper. It's got more hp than a megathron, similar range, a bit more damage and it still locks at 235km or something when you use 3 sensor boosters. Hyperion turns out ot be a small improvement to the megathron in sniping (well, 20% more hp is pretty good, all other aspects are about the same, but it's much more expensive). For blasterships, I think it's close but the differences I've found: I'm comparing dual rep hyperion to a dual rep mega and : mega does more damage per second (ion's are better than electrons and extra low slot can fit another MFS. but 7 guns compared to 8. Over all mega I think has about 10% more dps) mega has 26% better tracking (37% bonus but ions track a bit worse) hyperion has 37% better damage rep'd per second hyperion has a better capacitor hyperion goes 7% faster hyperion has something like 20% more starting HP. hyperion locks a bit faster (something like 15%). hyperion has an extra midslot but they are no longer really better than low slots anymore since ECM has been nerf'd. If you add all these factors together, I think the hyperion would win in a fight (they could both tank each other pretty good but since hyperion uses less cap / amount repaired it can out last the megathron. However, I will still use megathron since I don't want to pay the extra amount to buy the ship for such a small edge. If it's not my imagination and the nos is getting weakened... combined with the longer battles but no more drone HP, dominix is getting hurt bad. Also, I thought Absolution was gonna really bad ass with an unbeatable tank, Nos, and a couple autocannons to shoot the other guy... but with nos weakened, I think it will only be good at sniping (rigs will lessen the cap penalty). -Bart
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.15 01:00:00 - [642] Originally by: XFreedomX I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem is not with the Amarr ships, the problem is with the beam weapon's energy consumption. Your BS already have the most CAP of any race and the best power grid, continue to increase that just make it a better platform for other weapon systems. Better to leave it as is, and reduce cap usage of all weapon's by XX% and likewise ammo capacity to counter the upcomming changes, or to introduce modules to reduce cap use for turret and ammo capacity. While your right about the beam weapons, I put my standard Apoc mission rig on an Abaddon and it could not handle the 7 MPL2s and tank at the same time. It really capped out when I turned the Office LSmartBomb on. I can run LAR/MAR 7xMPL2 /w Multi and the SB for a long time on the Apoc I cannot run the MPL2s and the Reps on the Abaddon. The design with the current bonuses just does not work. That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level. The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.15 01:54:00 - [643] Originally by: Miri Tirzan That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level. The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game. which abaddon bonus do you want to replace with that 20% cap recharge rate? replace the 5% resists and you get a better geddon. replace the 5% rof and you get a better apoc. not really going to change the fact that this ship is a failed design and most definately not a much needed addition to the amarrian fleet. it does not fill a new role the way it is now and changing it to become clsoer the our old battleships wont fix that.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.15 03:06:00 - [644] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Miri Tirzan That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level. The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game. which abaddon bonus do you want to replace with that 20% cap recharge rate? replace the 5% resists and you get a better geddon. replace the 5% rof and you get a better apoc. not really going to change the fact that this ship is a failed design and most definately not a much needed addition to the amarrian fleet. it does not fill a new role the way it is now and changing it to become clsoer the our old battleships wont fix that. I agree it is a failed design. It would be nice if it was a drone or EW ship, but that is not what we have. I would rather have a better Apoc for the price, since a geddon is cheaper and does the same damage. At least a better Apoc would have some value with battles lasting longer and could be used for PvE. The Abaddon does not even make a good PvE ship. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
XFreedomX	Posted - 2006.11.15 04:21:00 - [645] Although the 20% recharge rate bonus will help the Abaddon with the CAP issue, it will make it a better projectile platform then a beam platform, which I am sure upsets the Amarrian purists... Abaddon fitted with 1400mm will win out against Tachyon fitted configuration every time because the 1400mm fitting will have power grid left for 1600mm plates as well as more cap for rep. To a lesser extend, all Amarrian ship will face this challenge with the hp increase.
Tricit Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.15 04:31:00 - [646] Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:45:12 Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:32:41 Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:30:59 I know this will never make it, but I just did this for fun out of boredom. Abbadon: -19.6% Extra Large Energy Turret Power Grid needs per level. -15% Extra Large Energy Turret Capacitor usage per level. (Variations) Values are the same default >Abbadon Navy Issue< -Abbadon Imperial Issue- -Fitting- 21000 Power Grid -21000- >26000< 800 CPU -800- >950< 8 High Slots -8- >8< 3 Medium Slots -4- >4< 8 Low Slots -8- >8< 8 Turret Hardpoints -8- >8< 0 Launcher Hardpoints -8- >4< -Attributes- (Structure) 9300 -12000- >14000< Capacity: 680m3 -680m3- >780m3< Drone Capacity: 75m3 -175m3- >125< Mass: 120,000,000kg Volumn: 1,250,000m3 (50,000m3 packaged) * EM Damage Resistance: 0% * Explosive Damage Resistance: 0% * Kinetic Damage Resistance 0% * Thermal Damage Resistance: 0% * (Armor) 10800 -16500- >19000< EM Damage Resistance: 60% * Explosive Damage Resistance: 20% * Kinetic Damage Resistance: 25% * Thermal Damage Resistance: 35% * (Shield) 8200 -12500- >14000< Shield Recharge Time: 3000s * EM Damage Resistance: 0% * Explosive Damage Resistance: 60% * Kinetic Damage Resistance: 40% * Thermal Damage Resistance: 20% * (Capacity) 6200 -6200- >7000< Capacitor Recharge Time: 870s * (Targeting) Maximum Targetting Range: 95KM -95KM- >115KM< Max Locked Targets: 4 -4- >4< Scan Resolution: 70mm -70mm- >70mm< Radar Sensor Strength: 35 points -39- >43< Signature Radius: 550m * (Propulsion) Max Velocity: 100m/s -120m/s- >100m/s< (Required Skills) Amarr Battleship Level III Spaceship Command Level IV Amarr Cruiser Level IV Spaceship Command Level III Amarr Frigate Level IV Spaceship Command Level I
Tricit Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.15 04:35:00 - [647] I r so crazy
XFreedomX	Posted - 2006.11.15 05:47:00 - [648] BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud...... Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage. We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.15 07:50:00 - [649] Originally by: XFreedomX BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud...... Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage. We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with. We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
XFreedomX	Posted - 2006.11.15 08:53:00 - [650] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: XFreedomX BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud...... Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage. We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with. We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day... The point of your comment escapes me. You think we should have support type bonus on Battleships? Maybe you think it is better to have shield transfer bonus instead of range bonus on the Rokh?

Noriath	Posted - 2006.11.15 10:12:00 - [651] What he says is that the Scorpion is one of the most useful and most used ships in PvP, because electronic warfare is just so incredibly powerful in Eve, and you can't justify only one race out of four having that kind of capability by saying that everyone elses battleships should purely be geared towards damage and tanking.
Mush Room Caldari Svea Rike Tre Kroner	Posted - 2006.11.15 11:25:00 - [652] Originally by: Noriath What he says is that the Scorpion is one of the most useful and most used ships in PvP, because electronic warfare is just so incredibly powerful in Eve, and you can't justify only one race out of four having that kind of capability by saying that everyone elses battleships should purely be geared towards damage and tanking. Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM. ECM is only effective when you choose not to protect yourself against it. This is how everything in eve works. Run a cap-dependant setup and I will nos you to death. You go close-range and I will web you. Everything has a counter. But hey, you go ahead and slam on another armor resist with uber stacking penalty instead of putting on a backup array. Never ceases to amaze me how much people can complain about ECM, even now that it is being nerfed.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.15 11:29:00 - [653] What about to remove this annoying 50% HP increase? It seems that without 50% increase all major problems will vanish? Tempest will stay with its alfa, Abaddon will be much more effective, no gal/amarr whining that capa is out, no gal/amarr whing that Caldari won Eve, etc, etc, etc.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.15 11:59:00 - [654] Originally by: XFreedomX Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: XFreedomX BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud...... Lets review what battleships are suppose to do... 1. Hit Hard. 2. Take lots of damage. 3. Hit Harder. 4. Take more damage. We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with. We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day... The point of your comment escapes me. You think we should have support type bonus on Battleships? Maybe you think it is better to have shield transfer bonus instead of range bonus on the Rokh? Geez... The Rokh is fine, as you would know if you had read my previous posts. What I am saying is that the Scorp is also fine, and used tons. And Battleships with EW bonuses (And that is NOT support, EW is an important part of direct warfare) for the other races would be just as fine imho. Definitely better than the half-assed same old things we got now. I don't think we need to argue about the power of damps, and while tracking disruptors don't work against missiles (they should though, disrupt missiles tracking = increase their exp radius) they are still good, plus the Abaddon would get a drone bonus as additional treat if I had a say. Just Minmatar would need something else I guess, a real targetpainting missileboat would probably be too powerful (I would still love it though) while a targetpainting turret-boat would be underpowered. Though that could possibly be offset by a larger dronebay since drones also benefit quite a bit from painting, but then again we got the phoon already. Maybe make the Phoon the Minmatar EW ship by giving it a 5th launcher slot, changing the turret ROF bonus into a painter one and giving it 8/5/6 slots, so we have a targetpainting half-baked missile boat with a large dronebay? And then make the Mael an AC boat. But I digressed lol... Basically Scorp = great, so other EW Battleships will likely also be great. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:25:00 - [655] And it's only ECM that gets a range bonus on its dedicated ships (20% per level!). The other methods of electronic warfare just can't reach out to the battleship level/distances. That's why I want a range bonus to tracking disruptors on the abaddon (or the apocalypse after changing one of them into a drone boat). And yes, looking as how successful the scorpion is being used in fleets it would only be fair to give the other races an ewar battleship as well. Forsch Defender of the empire It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Lobo Noturno	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:26:00 - [656] Ath, You proved that the maelstron is not as good as the rokh, not that the rokh is overpowered in it's role. I am guessin part of the problem is assuming the new ships are all fleet ships, which they are not...(fleet blaster ship??? Abbadon running out of cap in mid of a fight, not able to warp out???) That's why i want the devs to state how the hell they think each ship should be used for us to verify if that usage is possible and better than the other BSes of the same race on the same role... Right now, only hyperion and rokh have clear roles, and while the rokh works perfectly well in that role, the hyperion isn't really great at it...
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:57:00 - [657] Originally by: Mush Room Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM. hahahahahhahahahahaha. no seriosuly. go and try it some time.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:16:00 - [658] Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats) the abaddon is imo another mid-long range ship so i don't say that these ship should be 100% equal, but that they should be at least comparable... the rokh atm is not comparable to any ship that can fit that role... not considering gallente ships (that atm have not a real long range platform) the other ships are too much inferior to it (as shown in the graph) now... is it a rokh problem or a weapon one? actually i agree with you that the rokh can be ok for its role... its bonuses and its fitting is not that uber by itself... both mael and abaddon have similar bonuses and fitting... so imo the real problem is with their weapons... as shown in the comparsion between arty and rails these weapons are not balanced at all... before kali alpha was able to balance that difference a bit... but with kali with both HP boost and range nerf this is no longer true... for laser the discussion is quite similar to arty, is just a bit more difficult to do a comparsion as the problem there is not damage/range itself, but cap now for me there is no problem to keep the rokh as it is now, is a fine ship and i assure you i don't want it nerfed... but to keep the ship overal balanced with other ones supposed to fit a fleet role we have to fix the weapon umbalance, or really in a couple of months we will see a situation where T2 rokh = actual T2 fitted ships and T2 other ships = actual T1 fitted ones
Noriath	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:09:00 - [659] Edited by: Noriath on 15/11/2006 14:14:04 Originally by: Mush Room Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM. ECM is only effective when you choose not to protect yourself against it. This is how everything in eve works. Sorry, but that entire statement is just stupid. You can't claim that ECM is useless, or not a major advantage in the game because everyone has the option of gimping their ability to tank regular damage in order to counter it, especially since there is no other way to defend against it, and the modules that do counter ECM don't give you a bonus of any other kind. If the mere presence of ECM in the game can make people use up one or two slots to defend against it with mods that give no other benefit it is clearly one of the most powerful and feared systems in Eve. Besides, other races don't get more slots then Caldari, they have more lows at the expense of medslots, it's just not like they get free slots to counter ECM on every ship.
PSEWAR Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:02:00 - [660] Originally by: Tricit Abbadon: -19.6% Extra Large Energy Turret Power Grid needs per level. -15% Extra Large Energy Turret Capacitor usage per level. Somehow I like this crazy idea Caldari got the XL Shield Booster and Amarr get the XL Turret. At least it would suit the Amarrian way to fight with the Battleships lineup and fire their devestating Lasers while the smaller ships line up in front to keep the smaller Enemy ships away from the own Battleships. I think it would need some testing for the ballance, but the idea is just cool



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