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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 01:38:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger:
Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap.
This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots.
Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.
This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu.
sounds like a good idea to me. seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here.
alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger:
8/3/8 slots 8 turrets
obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here.
very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:01:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/10/2006 10:03:51 eh what i was trying to post back there was 8/3/7 8 turrets
was a bit late and apparently i having having problems with the 6+1=7 situation :)
also: yes its nice to have 4 meds instead of the usual 3. however as it is right now with the 7 turrets the ship will barely outdamge the hurricane on raw dps while using a lot more cap and being pretty similar in everything else. i would prefer it if it would at least have a serious damage advantage to counter that.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:42:00 -
[3]
Originally by: keepiru No. 3 mids = suck.
the geddon would like to disagree with you there.
i understand that 3 medslots are not all that great. seeing how i fly only amarrian ships i am very well aware of the problems you face with only a few medslots. if the rest of the ship is a good enough it can make up for that though. as i understand it the ship is supposed to be a gank platform somewhere between omen and geddon. 8/3/7 with a serious damage advantage would fit that better than 7/4/7 with better utility. especially considering how very close the harbinger and hurricane are.
anyway either way is fine with me. looking at the ship alone it already seems decent now. its just when you compare it to its obvious counterpart the hurricane that you realize its harsh shortcomings.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:41:00 -
[4]
well its not like laserboats are good at dictating range anyway. in most cases you cant really go for an mwd due to fitting and cap constraints.
anyway like i said earlier 7-4-7 and a serious boost to grid may work as well/maybe even better. actually i would also up the max cap or cap recharge a bit more in this case. i was just trying to show another possibility to overcome its obvious problems.
right now the ship is lacking a lot compared to the hurricane.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:04:00 -
[5]
Originally by: keepiru Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise.
Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit.
yes but if you drop to focused med pulses and 220mm autocannons the harbinger doesnt even get to keep the samll raw dps advantage it has with heavy pulse vs 425mm. and while the mwd helps with keeping range you suffer a hard cap penalty and your guns still use a lot more cap than autocannons while doing less desireable damagetypes.
Originally by: keepiru
it needs either:
8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it
And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it.
agreed again. just not sure if and 8th turret would not be too much if it has 4 meds.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 15:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Denrace Also, I dont get why it isnt glaringly obvious to the devs that Tier 1 Battlecruisers and Command Ships now need a complete overhaul.
Whats the point in releasing a new line of T1 ships that makes the upper T2 BC's hopelessly redundant for a fraction of the price (and while being FULLY insurable??)
you should file a bug report if your absolution doesnt have 2 more bonuses and a lot higher base resists than the harbinger. mine seems to be fine so far.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.29 03:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Malafor
Instead if increasing its drone bay, Just make it possible to move drones from cargo to the drone bay. That would eliminate alot of problems with many drone ships.
wouldnt work under current mechanics i believe. you could launch your 4 heavies then move a heavy from cargo to drone bay and launch that one. once your done just scoop on into the cargo bay.
with this change in place every ship with at least 25m3 dronebay would be able to field 5 heavy drones.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.30 18:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ath Amon mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane ... so i don't see the reason of all this whinage
that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups.
the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 14:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Alek Row
No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo.
it would have better RAW-dps then the others. and compared to a drone, ac or missile boat it should have the best raw dps by far. simply because this raw dps will turn into a much lower number once you factor in resists and because lasers in contrast to drones, projectiles and missiles do use cap. a lot of it actually. seeing how kali will bring a hp boost for ships/plates/extenders fights will last longer there and cap management will become much more important. being able to use a capless weapon system is not just a slight advantage. its a rather big one. i for one would gladly trade my no-ammo consumption in for a zero-cap-using laser. no ammo use is really more a pve advantage anyway.
sure with the longer fights with kali you may have to reload a few times to get through a harbingers hitpoints. on the other side you have the harbinger using his cap for ammo. cap booster charges are slightly larger than projectile ammo and thereby limit the number of times a laser using ship can reload by a lot.
also note that once you do start to use t2 crystals our ammo does get used up. only we dont get the opportunity to bring just a few hundred rounds per gun. each crystal equals 1000 pieces of ammo. if we want to bring t2 ammo for 7 guns for both short and long range we need to buy 14000 rounds worth. and thats not including the possibility that they could run out while your at it.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.14 18:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Karash Amerius The extreme lack of discussion about the Amarr BC offering in Kali by both the community and Tuxford himself is very disturbing.
I think we are about to witness a second mass exodus...this time from the Empire.
theres some discussion in this very thread here.
in short: looks really nice compared to other amarrian ships (not exactly difficult) but dont try to compare it to the really good ones: hurricane/drake. hurricane should be able to outperform it in pretty much every regard and well the drake is caldari. you cant really expect to compete with the alpha race.
oh and the 7th turret is placed in a way to constantely remind you that the ship was nerfed down from the original concept.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tammarr Umm yeah, drake... Anyone gotten a reply on why its got 10% more thermal and 10% less em armor resist compared to other news bcs which uses standard? Or have I watched outdated screenshots? Dont give me bull about "racial enemies damage or advesarys" (Awaits Harbringer to get 30% explosive base and 20% less em) -_-
you may want to have a look at base resists of some other t1 ships.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:26:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 16/11/2006 17:27:20 well the new bcs look a lot better all of a sudden.
havent checked on their new damage output yet but i always found them to be too good compared to the tier 1 bcs. then again us amarrians only had the prophecy to compare to.
apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though.
edit: hurricane lost 1 turret slot btw.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:50:00 -
[13]
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though.
Hate to disappoint you but they haven't.
Cap and cap recharge time has been increased by 50% accorss the board, cap/sec is unchanged, differences between ships are unchanged in % points.
oh i'm not really disappointed. a quick 50% boost to all ships is a lot easier to do than to actually increase the cap of each ship according to what is needed by that ship. so the hp boost will still favour ships that dont require cap to fire.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:29:00 -
[14]
from the looks of it the harbinger and hurricane are a lot more balanced towards each other now. the harbinger finally has a damage advantage to show for the higher fitting + the capneed of its guns.
now the drake on the other hand seems to have been hit a bit hard. while i wouldnt say a kinetic missile bonus is useless (its certainly a few times better than an em-missiles bonus) it seems a bit much to change the bonus and remove a laucher at the same time.
so maybe 5% rof and 6 launches?
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Wolfgang Jager
There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type.
you may want to do some more research into non-caldari ships before you go and claim something like that.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.19 17:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Admiral Pieg
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Wolfgang Jager
There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type.
you may want to do some more research into non-caldari ships before you go and claim something like that.
prolly meant damage type
would still be wrong then.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
- Give Hurricane back the 7:th turret or give it 50 m3 drone bay.
in that case feel free to add an 8th turret to the harbinger so it is once more balanced with the hurricane.
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Then things are fine, now that myrmidon have been buffed to the extreme, and harbinger got buffed with a damage bonus.
oh the harbinger got buffed? i must have missed that. last i checked it got its rof bonus changed to damage and is doing less dps now.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jim McGregor and harbinger got buffed with a damage bonus.
tell me what is this buff your talking about there?
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Your ship lasts longer and have more cap to tank now. Its a improvement, therefore a buff. You may not agree, fine. Thats how I see it anyway.
ALL ships last longer and have more cap now. There has been no specific buff to the harbinger that i'm aware off. if you have found one feel free to share.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.22 13:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
1) Switching rof to dmg. 2) The bonus change buffs the harbinger to last longer in battle. Its a much better bonus than rof because it decreases the cap use of the ship. Therefore I see it as a improvement (buff).
it takes a bit of damage and gives a bit of tankability. thats a balanced change not a buff. not that the harbinger really needed this as it already has the laser cap use reduction bonus and was supposed to be a gank-ship.
right now the harbinger seems well balanced with the hurricane. of course they could have taken the other road and improved the harbinger instead (giving it its 8th turret for example) but this way works as well.
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