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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 02:48:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Mack Dorgeans My biggest beef with invention (without being able to test it yet) is the increase in BPC demand that will result. More copy slots are needed at NPC labs (say 10 more) and POS mobile labs (2 more). If nerfing one of the other slot types is necessary, take them out of PE, since there is almost never a station or research POS that has used up all its PE slots.
"More copy slots are needed at NPC labs (say 10 more)" NO! Besides obvious "too easy", it will prevent a need to run POS for Labs. "and POS mobile labs (2 more). " - why? if the number is fine or ok now, it will certainly be more than satisfactory once Invention items are run in it as they will be more profitable than current production.
Don't make it too easy! _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.07 04:13:00 -
[182]
So, the most popular research type, copying, should have half as many slots in NPC stations as PE research, the least popular? It should have one-third as many slots in mobile labs?
It's not about ease, it's about making copy slots available to people who can't afford to run large tower POSes. Maybe 10 in stations and 2 in mobiles are too many more, but currently there are too few.
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Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:01:00 -
[183]
Note: on the current Singularity build, there are 20 invention slots per NPC research station, the same as ME and PE. Copy slots are still just 10 per station.
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:36:00 -
[184]
You need to update your sig nomad :)
Raptor and Ares Fix |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 17:57:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Mack Dorgeans Note: on the current Singularity build, there are 20 invention slots per NPC research station, the same as ME and PE. Copy slots are still just 10 per station.
I really don't see what the problem might be here...the truth is T1 BPO copies fast as hell and with invention taking forever and then some to finish running you certainly won't hit a huge labs bottlenect on BPC Copy. You will on invention but I guess that is intended (deploy a POS!)
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Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:03:00 -
[186]
The point is, the demand for copy slots and their rarity already means long queues at most stations, and that's before the additional demand for copies that invention will bring.
As for POSes, my corp already runs mobile labs. I'm not worried about my own ability to find slots. Not everyone can afford the time or cost to run POSes, however. Maybe I shouldn't complain, because that means more demand for the BPCs we make, but I have this silly notion that people who want to do research shouldn't be forced to have POSes when there are stations available. I also think if they DO go to the trouble of running POSes, they should get more copy slots per mobile lab.
When the changes were made to research slots to break up the 50 all-purpose station slots into 20 ME, 20 PE, and 10 copy, it seemed like the intent was to keep the total number of slots at 50, and copy got the shaft even though everyone knows PE is the least used research function. Now invention is added with 20 slots, and copy will still be stuck with just 10 per station. Copying is a good business for research characters, but the way it is now, the availability limits that activity to only those who can afford to tie up their BPOs in long queues or run their own POSes.
As for copy times, I personally think T2 copy times are too long. There's no good reason for that other than keeping the larger T2 production houses fat and happy. It should not take longer to photocopy a set of instructions than it does to make the actual item. If there were more copy slots available and a copy took only as long as a build (if not less), then more T2 BPCs would be produced and sold, allowing people other than T2 BPO owners the ability to make their own T2, using building skills that currently only a select few have a use for.
If there's a desire to make researching and the sciences more active skills, why not give more people the ability to make use of them? Miners, fighters, and traders all have plenty of ships, equipment, and tools to practice their professions in a variety of ways. Why should scientists be more limited in what they can do? Shouldn't all professions be deep, interesting, and fun?
------
Oh, and my sig is fine -- we still have all those things for sale, even though a couple of the T2 prints have been sold. When we run out of products or add more assets, I'll change my sig.
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Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:20:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 07/11/2006 19:20:37 To: Chief Technology CEO, UberGeekPrime
SUBJECT Field Test report #1 Invention to further advance our development and break free of the reins of the monopolies on T2 ship and module production
Split and set-up Duvolle research agents up to research Gallente Starship Engineering as well as High Energy Physics. Started reading up on Astrometrics and strengthening my Serpentis Data Encryption skills to accomodate the new invention theory of study.
The Starship team is plugging away fairly fast and I will soon be able to accumulate 8 starship data cores. This will provide enough starship cores for use with a Exequror BPC. Using this print in conjunction with certain datacores theoretically yield a T2 cruiser print, the Oneiros Recon ship. Unfortunately the current print require 8 Mechanical Engineering datacores. I have yet to find a Duvolle research associate who specializes in this research. In addition an Icognito Data ship interface is required. I believe I overheard some scouts mention an archaelogical site location in Saidusairos system that might hold one. Will investigate and see if my purchasing dept can acquire one from the scouts. I might have to face the hazards in that low sec system myself, luckily my ship "Cloak nDagger" is nearing completion.
I request assistance or direction on two details to complete my assigned mission
- Where should I search for Mechanical Engineering Datacores? Even conjectures would be appreciated
- The agents are quite demanding in terms of research funds. Is there any way we could 'persuade' them to part with the datacores at a more resonable 'price'?
Wihout getting over these two hurdles, I'd guess that our Invention mission will probably not have a signifiacant affect on our T2 production. This will just drive us back into the 'claws' of the T2 monpolies.
Please advise
Lord "Virtual Proof of Murphy's Law" Goodberry
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:34:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Orrin Danestarr on 07/11/2006 19:35:03 Your going to have to coordinate with another person who is spamming mechanical engineering research. If your trying to do this solo, id suggest you have3 mechanical engineer agents and 2 starship. Its gonna slow down your invention but you will be able to do it solo.
Try uping another corp standing to get access to mechanical engineering agents "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:47:00 -
[189]
Mack, if you want to solve the current copy problem, rather than making it easy for everyone to spam copy slots why not just change the current POS lab system into 3 seperate modules:
Research Lab 3 ME slots 2 PE slots 1 copy slot 1 Invention slot
Copy Lab 4 copy slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Invention Slot
Invention Lab 4 Invention slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Copy slot
Yes, it requires people to set up POS for more copy slots, but tbh, if you made more copy slots freely available in normal stations all that would happen is they get filled the same as they are now. At least this way the dedicated researchers will always have their slots available to use for themselves, improves the market for POS fuels, and gets more people into developing space rather than relying on current infrastructure. ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:58:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 07/11/2006 23:59:28 To Chief CEO UberGeekprime
Report from associate Orrin indicated that we would probably have to go outside our 'realm' of Duvolle to accomodate Invention.
Any chance of speaking to the Duvolle Corp master and asking him to recruit some hungry and eager mechanical engineers? It's either that or diluting our 'brotherhood' ties and and associating with an additional R & D Corp. Please advise
Off the record Orrin, have any recommendations as to a top notch mechanical engineer in Gallente space to work with? I'd like to see if I can get close to an invention BPC soon. Thanks kindly for the feedback.
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LiBraga
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:43:00 -
[191]
Here's an idea, it maybe crazy but.....
How about you re-seed the T2 bpos forever requiring alot of work with the R&D agents. This would remove the unfair advantage of those with T2 bpos. Eventually T2 bpos would become common place from the agents as T1 are from market. Then.... NEVER use the system again. But use the invention system for T3 items... so T3 bpos would never exsist... only the T3 bpc's which would be agent rewards for research or loyalty points.
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Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.08 01:16:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Omber Zombie Edited by: Omber Zombie on 08/11/2006 00:12:55 Mack, if you want to solve the current copy problem, rather than making it easy for everyone to spam copy slots why not just change the current POS lab system into 3 seperate modules:
Research Lab 3 ME slots 2 PE slots 1 copy slot 1 Invention slot
Copy Lab 4 copy slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Invention Slot
Invention Lab 4 Invention slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Copy slot
Yes, it requires people to set up POS for more copy slots, but tbh, if you made more copy slots freely available in normal stations all that would happen is they get filled the same as they are now. At least this way the dedicated researchers will always have their slots available to use for themselves, improves the market for POS fuels, and gets more people into developing space rather than relying on current infrastructure.
edit: i posted the idea here, I'd suggest continuing the discussion there
That's not a bad idea for giving people with POSes more ability to customize their research facilities.
Still, I think PE slots are too common at 20 per NPC station and copy slots too rare. Yes, they would get filled, but that's thousands more chances for people to do copies.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:50:00 -
[193]
PE slots are generally used for t2 or capital research, long jobs essentially. Having more copy sltos available in stations would only generate a larger flood of bpc's from the same people already hoarding slots rather than help fix the problem.
Let the people using station slots continue to use them, but make it attractive to people to set up POS and you will see more copies being created (your stated goal), more t2 bpc's being created due to the time required to copy being reduced (your other stated goal, I still see it as being unlikely that people will make copies rather than build tho) as well as helping to improve the POS market.
Why fix one problem with one solution when you can fix multiple problems with one solution :) ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.08 06:39:00 -
[194]
Actually, more POS copy slots doesn't necessarily result in more T2 copies being made. Even with the copy time reduction, most T2 BPOs are not worth diverting from production to create copies. Those T2 items that are poor enough sellers to make copying feasible don't really need more copies made, either.
Even if any new copy slots in stations were gobbled up quickly (as they would almost definitely be in high sec research stations), it would still increase the available slots and give more people access to them. The highest-traffic systems will always have a lot of max-time queues, but in other places doubling the available copy slots would have an effect, with fewer maxed-out queues and more open slots. There are only so many slots one character can manage (11), so unless those people gobbling up slots now use more characters to do research, there are going to be more chances at copy slot time for those who don't currently use them. Plus, if invention demand for BPCs broadens the copy market, the supply should come from all sources, not just POS labs.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:01:00 -
[195]
As I said, I doubt t2 copies would be increased too much, but I don't think I seem to be explaining my point properly: BPC's are currently too cheap to produce, so everyone does it. Creating some 'cost' to produce them as well as allieviating some of the queues is a better way to fix that problem than to simply add more copy slots.
Invention (as far as I can tell) is supposed to help reduce the prices of t2, not destroy profit margins completely. By increasing copy slots in stations all you do is allow even more people to just create throwaway alts to produce copies, flood the resource (bpc's) and have a minimal cost involved. At least through POS copying you have some sort of effort involved in producing that resource, and it is done at a slight cost. ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:19:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Lord Goodberry I think one of the biggest concerns for the R & D profession is the need to have a mechanical core for almost every invention bp at this point.
Not every invention but all the starships and a lot of armor/hull stuff require mechanical cores AFAIK. This might become a bottleneck if we don't get more R&D agents with mechanical engineering. Ever R&D corp has starship engieneering but I think only Minmatar R&D corps have mechanical engineering as research speciality.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:57:00 -
[197]
kaalakiota has mech eng ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:03:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Omber Zombie kaalakiota has mech eng
Yes true, forgot about them. However their best lvl 4 R&D agent is quality -14 though
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:56:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Lord Goodberry Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 07/11/2006 23:59:28 To Chief CEO UberGeekprime
Report from associate Orrin indicated that we would probably have to go outside our 'realm' of Duvolle to accomodate Invention.
Any chance of speaking to the Duvolle Corp master and asking him to recruit some hungry and eager mechanical engineers? It's either that or diluting our 'brotherhood' ties and and associating with an additional R & D Corp. Please advise
Off the record Orrin, have any recommendations as to a top notch mechanical engineer in Gallente space to work with? I'd like to see if I can get close to an invention BPC soon. Thanks kindly for the feedback.
Im not familar with many of the r & d corps, i jsut know core complextion. Core has a few mechanical, some are lvl 2, a couple lvl 3 and a lvl 4. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:03:00 -
[200]
While Invention is definitely a step in the right direction, it will really be only worth it for big ticket stuff (like HACs). People who hold, say, T2 drone BPOs, will still be able to print ISK. And "inventing" T2 hybrid ammo... You've got to be kidding me. Won't be worth the effort. Why not, in addition to invention, 1. Seed more T2 item BPOs (not necessarily ship BPOs, but gun, ammo, drone, missile, and tank BPOs for sure) 2. Introduce anti-monopolist measures. If a character, his alts, or his corp come to possess more than one BPO for a certain item, another BPO gets seeded automatically, so that monopolies are harder to create.
Right now, as I understand, BPOs get seeded only if the production level goes down. It does not work, because many greedy manufacturers produce items, don't release them on the market, and then go ahead and brag about it on the forums. Oh, and sell ISK on Ebay. This is just wrong, and has to stop...
Also see this thread
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:09:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Why not, in addition to invention, 1. Seed more T2 item BPOs (not necessarily ship BPOs, but gun, ammo, drone, missile, and tank BPOs for sure) 2. Introduce anti-monopolist measures. If a character, his alts, or his corp come to possess more than one BPO for a certain item, another BPO gets seeded automatically, so that monopolies are harder to create.
Right now, as I understand, BPOs get seeded only if the production level goes down. It does not work, because many greedy manufacturers produce items, don't release them on the market, and then go ahead and brag about it on the forums. Oh, and sell ISK on Ebay. This is just wrong, and has to stop...
Also see this thread
what does this mini-rant have to do with invention? ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:43:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Omber Zombie
what does this mini-rant have to do with invention?
It has a lot to do with Invention. Since Invention alone will not fix the numerous problems current Tech 2 system has, I have invited people to discuss ways of fixing it.
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Gamesguy
Amarr Reunited O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.09 04:24:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Omber Zombie
what does this mini-rant have to do with invention?
It has a lot to do with Invention. Since Invention alone will not fix the numerous problems current Tech 2 system has, I have invited people to discuss ways of fixing it.
My idea from another thread.
Quote: Simple answer is to give invention the option of making BPOs, add to the list of materials the T2 item you're trying to invent(as optional), which will dramatically increase the odds of getting a few BPCs and/or give a chance to get a BPO of the T2 item(with very horrible ME and disable ME research on it).
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.09 07:22:00 -
[204]
What problems can't Invention, in the general sense, hypothetically fix?!
T2 is T2 for a reason.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 08:47:00 -
[205]
Why is there no invention options for:
- Mining barges - Ammo - Drones
Inentional or not done yet?
I doubt that it will be worth it to do invention for ammo, but drones might be depending on how many runs you get on the bpc.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:07:00 -
[206]
From another thread, by Mephisto:
Any ship wreck will stand a chance of having salvagable components. All of the T1 rig blueprints will be seeded on the market. All the T2 rig blueprints will have to be created via invention. ie, there will be no released T2 rig BPO's.
So, another datacore sink?
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Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:22:00 -
[207]
My background are R&D (with 16m of sp in science) this new invention with Pos needed and access to data item in 0.0 Discriminate small corporation which at present have no access to 0.0 because of the politics of Claimer which fires in seen on neutrals
To Settle a pos in 0.0 for a small corporation or a freelancer remains suicidal
i suppose that the data Tool for invention will be shall once again be the object of monopoly on the market following the example of objects Named
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.09 14:01:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Jdestars My background are R&D (with 16m of sp in science) this new invention with Pos needed and access to data item in 0.0 Discriminate small corporation which at present have no access to 0.0 because of the politics of Claimer which fires in seen on neutrals
To Settle a pos in 0.0 for a small corporation or a freelancer remains suicidal
i suppose that the data Tool for invention will be shall once again be the object of monopoly on the market following the example of objects Named
Eh? Nobody tells you to install POS in 0.0 to be able to do invention. You can do it in an NPC station granted you find any slots open.
Stop ranting.
_________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2006.11.09 14:16:00 -
[209]
during my test invention Service wasnt avaible in npc station
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.09 17:05:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Jdestars during my test invention Service wasnt avaible in npc station
Originally by: Mephysto Ok, so I know its not working on Singularity yet, but discuss it here please.
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