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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.22 13:31:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Zallazaer
Originally by: Helison
Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck.
You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I donŠt know exactly (canŠt login at the moment), specially I donŠt know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature.
Ok, this is what I've done. I've warped to the signature. Made a BM. Then launched a Ladar comb.
Deadspace signature strength 1.99999 distance 7.852 accuracy 0
I warp to it. A gate! I make a BM. On the map is shows as "pirate hideout Arnar". I warp through the gate, and I see a veldspar roid field with a few bad guys it also has another gate to a deeper level.
Now I'm targetted by the rats and don't want to loose my rigg fitted buzzard. I warp to the station and get my cruize raven. I warp back to the last BM: no gate.....
Darn. Apparently the gate disappears if you dock at a station or leave the system, just like moon probes (?) I'm speculating here.
It is a joke, right? So the deadspace complex needed for the data interface and datacore for invention require some undred of scanning to find one (probably not the right one ), then to go and explore immediatly in a probe fitted ship, with hacking and archeology scanners in the hope of finding the data cores and interfaces. And then someone say that the datacores and interfaces will not be monopolized by the big alliances. Who has the time/resources to launch hundred of probes in a system and then immediatly storm the location found? After the 4-5 unsuccessful expedition with a small fleet to defend and support the researcher a small corp will send him to the deepest hell.
Well, if it helps any the gas clouds I found last week are still there, as is a drone encounter I found at around the same time. I just reprobed the latter, went two jumps to get my ship and came back and it's exactly where I left it
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:09:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:09:16 Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:08:48 Done some tests on scanning using multiple probe. The results are interesting to say the least.
First of all there is a large bug atm which allows you to have 1 probe inside the range of another as long as you launch the shorter range probe first. This bug actually makes it easier to test multiple probes as you don't have to work as hard to place them correctly. If you want to test multiple probes I suggest you do it know before its fixed (it has been bug reported).
When combining multiple probes the strength of them seems to follow the following formula: Compound strength = (probe A str + probe B str + ... + probe X str) / (probe A str mult * probe B str mult * ... * probe X str mult)
str = signal strength alone. str mult = a multiplier that is specific for each range type and is also effected by the range of the probe from the target. Shorter range probes have a higher value (making them less accurate to combine) and longer ranges increase the number. Str mult are in the range from around 1.01 to 1.15.
Going to take A LOT more tests to verify these numbers and find the correct formula but I think I am on the right path.
A few things about what this means in reality. It's not recommended to combine a very short range probe with a very long range one. For example when I used a 5au probe alone I got 0.95 signal strength, but then I combined to with a 20 au probe (which alone had 0.18 signal strength) the combined strength became 0.92 which is less than the 5au probe produced on its own.
Combining probes also have some strange effects on accuracy. I had an example where I combined 3x 10au probes, got a signal strength of 1.25 but an accuracy of 669km!!!. So even with strength above 1 it was not fully accurate.
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.22 16:09:00 -
[213]
BALANCING OF SCAN PROBES
Used terms: vulnerability = Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength
Current problems *) Too low scan deviation *) Too low sensor strength of high-distance probes *) Drones are too easy to be found: A Domi has as an example a vulnerability of 19, the Ogre a vulnerability of 100. So if you want to find a Domi, which is running mission, you just have to scan for drones. *) Faction probes have a too low scan range (but would be too powerful for finding ships if the have a higher range) *) Too many sorts of faction probes, too many probes required for locating a deadspace signature.
My proposals (not all are cumulative):
a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough!
b) Change the calculation of scan deviation: A signal strength of 1 should NOT be the same as being able to warp directly to the target.
c) Increase sensor strength of ferret and observator probe, but also increase their deviation
d) Other solution: Double the probability of finding a target without changing the signal strenght.
e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd)
f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. - With a scan vulnerability modifier you can also balance the vulnerability of capital ships better.
g) Complete redesign of the faction probes: Reduce them to 4 probes, which can scan only deadspace signatures. Remove the faction-part. Increase their scan range to the old values. All 4 probes should be able to find a deadspace signature with the same probability, but with much different deviation.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.22 17:53:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:09:16 When combining multiple probes the strength of them seems to follow the following formula: Compound strength = (probe A str + probe B str + ... + probe X str) / (probe A str mult * probe B str mult * ... * probe X str mult)
How is range to target tied in to this? If you simply slot the compound strength into the existing single-probe equation, what values do you use for probe range and range to target?
Originally by: Helison BALANCING OF SCAN PROBES
Used terms: vulnerability = Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength
Current problems *) Too low scan deviation *) Too low sensor strength of high-distance probes *) Drones are too easy to be found: A Domi has as an example a vulnerability of 19, the Ogre a vulnerability of 100. So if you want to find a Domi, which is running mission, you just have to scan for drones. *) Faction probes have a too low scan range (but would be too powerful for finding ships if the have a higher range) *) Too many sorts of faction probes, too many probes required for locating a deadspace signature.
My proposals (not all are cumulative):
a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough!
b) Change the calculation of scan deviation: A signal strength of 1 should NOT be the same as being able to warp directly to the target.
c) Increase sensor strength of ferret and observator probe, but also increase their deviation
d) Other solution: Double the probability of finding a target without changing the signal strenght.
e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd)
f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. - With a scan vulnerability modifier you can also balance the vulnerability of capital ships better.
g) Complete redesign of the faction probes: Reduce them to 4 probes, which can scan only deadspace signatures. Remove the faction-part. Increase their scan range to the old values. All 4 probes should be able to find a deadspace signature with the same probability, but with much different deviation.
I certainly agree with f) (and e), obviously) but I'm not sure that the current exploration probe system is a problem; the space you're hunting should hopefully inform your probe choice, and the reduced volume of probes makes it feasible to spam Quests all over the system and then run several analyses until you find something. It does make it slightly more grind-y, but I'm not convinced it needs a total overhaul yet.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.22 18:27:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:09:16 When combining multiple probes the strength of them seems to follow the following formula: Compound strength = (probe A str + probe B str + ... + probe X str) / (probe A str mult * probe B str mult * ... * probe X str mult)
How is range to target tied in to this? If you simply slot the compound strength into the existing single-probe equation, what values do you use for probe range and range to target?
Haven't figured out everything yet :) I would say is something like if we use 2x 20au probes, one is 10 au away from the target and the other 15 au. Using the 10 au probe alone results in a signal strength of 0.5, using the 15 au probe results in a signal strength of 0.4
The compound strenght would be (0.5 + 0.4)/((X*A)*(X*B) Where X is a constant for 20 au probes (somewhere the in the area of 1.035) and A and B are range modifiers to this value.
But the exact value of the constant and the range modifiers are things I have yet to determine.
Also the accuracy seems to have some strange properties like min scan deviation, but I haven't run enough test to be sure yet. Example using 2x 20 au probes, both a 16.4au range looking for a scorp resulted in a signal strength of 1.08 and accuracy in the 500km-1000km range. Adding a 3rd 20 au probe at 16.4 au increased strength to around 1.45 but no change to accuracy.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.22 18:50:00 -
[216]
Ah, gotcha - thought strength meant scan strength not signal strength, my bad :)
Is it possible that it's just giving you the deviation you'd get if you used a single probe, so it's considering multiple probes for sig strength but not for deviation?
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.22 19:17:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius Ah, gotcha - thought strength meant scan strength not signal strength, my bad :)
Is it possible that it's just giving you the deviation you'd get if you used a single probe, so it's considering multiple probes for sig strength but not for deviation?
Tried that but no doesn't fit. For this test it was 1/3rd of the expected max deviation, I ran 10 test and they where all in the 500-1000km range. While it could be a coincidence I doubt it.
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.22 23:11:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Hoshi The covert finds the gate and the pilgrim/arazu goes in cloaked to tackle you.
Wishful thinking. Missions with gates have a "beacon" and the warp-in point that will decloak you, as well as clouds that will decloak you. Like someone said, they just have to move from the warp-in point and they're not sitting ducks anymore. Stories. |
Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.22 23:20:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Helison a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! ... e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd)
f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier.
a) You only warp to 0 on certain items because that's what you set your default warp to distance to. You can also right-click results and warp to 15/100.
e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things.
f) Being able to use 1 probe to clean the whole system of stray probes is economically viable, as t1 won't pay much anyway if you resell or refine. I would rather keep it that way. I agree that t2 probes could do with what you suggest, and currently-player-controlled drones should be even harder to find, to accomodate the Domi with drones scenario. Stories. |
Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.23 00:06:00 -
[220]
OK, had a reasonable glance through the thread and didn't spot this, so I hope I didn't miss it, but is there a comparison of which mods/probes exist in the current system against their kali counterparts.... don't want to start looking at these only to find I'm trying to stick a Kali probe into an RMR probe launcher. As you might guess I'm only just getting into the whole probe thing.
This is a sig...
-- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio --
... good, ain't it! |
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Reachok
Amarr Low Grade Ore The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.11.23 01:01:00 -
[221]
I'm testing the scan probes and have encountered an apparent problem: the snoop scan probe seems to dissappear before the scan timer winds down, then leaves me with the message, "You need to launch scan probes". Am I doing something wrong or are they broken currently?
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.23 01:10:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Donna Darko
Originally by: Helison a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! ... e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd)
f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier.
a) You only warp to 0 on certain items because that's what you set your default warp to distance to. You can also right-click results and warp to 15/100.
ItŠs clear that this is possible. But I think that probing is too easy, when you are able to warp at 0 to the target. Even 15km ist still too close in most scenarios. The reason why I donŠt like warp to 0 is that CCP intended to make it possible to probe cloaked ships. If you warp to 0 to a cloaked ship it would decloak immediatly.
Quote: e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things.
For ship scanning you donŠt need many probes. Normally snoop probes and a few long-range probes are enough. For deadspace scanning you need many more probes and they take much more space. At the moment it seems like you would need masses of various quest probes, several sift probes and perhaps some pursuit and comb probes.
Quote: f) Being able to use 1 probe to clean the whole system of stray probes is economically viable, as t1 won't pay much anyway if you resell or refine. I would rather keep it that way. I agree that t2 probes could do with what you suggest, and currently-player-controlled drones should be even harder to find, to accomodate the Domi with drones scenario.
I donŠt think itŠs possible for CCP to differentiate between active and abandoned drone. If it is, this would be great. Otherwise drones (except fighters) should not be more vulnerable than frigs.
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Sunaria
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Posted - 2006.11.23 01:13:00 -
[223]
I finally found something with exploration, a coral rock formation ... well 7 low value drones spawn there, I kill them and fetch the loot salvage the wrecks ... So I'm sitting there ... spoiled like 20 a 25 racial probes ... what to do now. Ok so I started exploring my options.
- I lock the formation and start shooting it ... 0.0 damage - lets fetch a miner ... I head back with iteron fitted with salvager and miner - lock and activate miner ... well doesn't work ... - lock and activate salvager ... well doesn't work either ... - basicly I'm out of frigging options wasted probably like 10 million in real tranquility isk on probes and have like nothing to show for it except a few low value alloys :( ... I felt really ripped of
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Tangerine
Gallente Four Horsemen
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Posted - 2006.11.23 01:53:00 -
[224]
ive been playing about with the new probes and so far im a tad worried.
Im 1 of those scavengers that likes scanning down deep space derelicts and i also supply deep space safespots for my corps carriers - question is 1 how do i find these deep safe derelics? and how do you now make a deep space safespot now the observators dont give a 90 au accuracy?
for the life of me i cant figure this out :(
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:00:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni OK, had a reasonable glance through the thread and didn't spot this, so I hope I didn't miss it, but is there a comparison of which mods/probes exist in the current system against their kali counterparts.... don't want to start looking at these only to find I'm trying to stick a Kali probe into an RMR probe launcher. As you might guess I'm only just getting into the whole probe thing.
The probes you have on TQ right now are for ship probing in kali, so you will need to get new for exploration. The probe launcher you have now on TQ is for exploration and moon survey on Kali, while it can still be used for ship scanning it is sub par in doing so. So you will have to get a new.
Originally by: Reachok I'm testing the scan probes and have encountered an apparent problem: the snoop scan probe seems to dissappear before the scan timer winds down, then leaves me with the message, "You need to launch scan probes". Am I doing something wrong or are they broken currently?
First of all make sure you use a Recon Probe Launcher I and not a Scan probe Launcher I, the scan probe launcher is for exploration probes. The Recon Probe Launcher have a base scan time for 120 sec while the snoop probes survive for 300 sec. Scan probe launcher have a base scan time of 600 sec so there will be a problem if you try to use that and don't have very good skills.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:07:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Tangerine ive been playing about with the new probes and so far im a tad worried.
Im 1 of those scavengers that likes scanning down deep space derelicts and i also supply deep space safespots for my corps carriers - question is 1 how do i find these deep safe derelics? and how do you now make a deep space safespot now the observators dont give a 90 au accuracy?
for the life of me i cant figure this out :(
You scan them down with an Observator Deep Space Probe. You might just need to scan several times before you find the target (20+ if it's a shuttle or small frig, 4-5 if it's a BS), make sure you train the Astrometric Triangulation skill. Once you get a result it will be within 20.000 km from the target so just warp there and drop a 5 au probe.
It's no longer possible to create new deep safes from scratch. There either needs to be objects sitting in a deep safe for you to scan for or if you have 2-3 deep safes in a system you can create as many new as you want by warping between them and create BMs in space.
I suggest you get too it and create a large set for you self.
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Tangerine
Gallente Four Horsemen
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:35:00 -
[227]
ok i get the deep safe spot bit (tad cheesed now) but with my derelict hunting are u saying i gotta sit in a system for 20+ scans just to find out if their is anything in the system worth scavaging?
What i mean is am im going to have to run multiple scans with the obs to get a complete list of ships in space and maybe still find nothing (lots of time wasted) whereas atm i can just search for each type and know if their is anything worth getting or nothing at all (i usually just scan for indys and cruisers)?
Hope u get what i mean.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 03:07:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Tangerine ok i get the deep safe spot bit (tad cheesed now) but with my derelict hunting are u saying i gotta sit in a system for 20+ scans just to find out if their is anything in the system worth scavaging?
What i mean is am im going to have to run multiple scans with the obs to get a complete list of ships in space and maybe still find nothing (lots of time wasted) whereas atm i can just search for each type and know if their is anything worth getting or nothing at all (i usually just scan for indys and cruisers)?
Hope u get what i mean.
That is correct, but each scan takes much less time now. With prefect skills and t2 rigs you can bring it down to 22 sec per scan. Keep the pace up and you can do 20 scans in less than 10 min. And you can also scan for drones and cans which should make it easier to find the spots as well.
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.23 03:56:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Tangerine ok i get the deep safe spot bit (tad cheesed now) but with my derelict hunting are u saying i gotta sit in a system for 20+ scans just to find out if their is anything in the system worth scavaging?
What i mean is am im going to have to run multiple scans with the obs to get a complete list of ships in space and maybe still find nothing (lots of time wasted) whereas atm i can just search for each type and know if their is anything worth getting or nothing at all (i usually just scan for indys and cruisers)?
Hope u get what i mean.
That is correct, but each scan takes much less time now. With prefect skills and t2 rigs you can bring it down to 22 sec per scan. Keep the pace up and you can do 20 scans in less than 10 min. And you can also scan for drones and cans which should make it easier to find the spots as well.
Have you any evidence, that it is possible to scan for cans?
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.23 05:19:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Helison I donŠt think itŠs possible for CCP to differentiate between active and abandoned drone.
Can you loot someone else's probe when they launch it? :) Nope, so they can differentiate. Stories. |
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Rath Etzam
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Posted - 2006.11.23 08:07:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Donna Darko
Originally by: Helison I donŠt think itŠs possible for CCP to differentiate between active and abandoned drone.
Can you loot someone else's probe when they launch it? :) Nope, so they can differentiate.
Can you scoop them to drone bay or cargo while the owner is still within control range?
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.23 12:11:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Donna Darko e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things.
Missing the point. A "system summary" probe would mean you can just pop one probe per system initially to see if there's anything worth probing for, and if not you can move on without wasting any probes. If you're serious about looking for stuff it'd significantly cut down on your probe use.
Originally by: Helison At the moment it seems like you would need masses of various quest probes, several sift probes and perhaps some pursuit and comb probes.
Faction probe sizes were cut down significantly in the last set of changes, so you can now carry plenty in your hold. My only concern there is on their price.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 12:16:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Donna Darko e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things.
Missing the point. A "system summary" probe would mean you can just pop one probe per system initially to see if there's anything worth probing for, and if not you can move on without wasting any probes. If you're serious about looking for stuff it'd significantly cut down on your probe use.
Sounds like a very nice probe to me, might even have them show up on the systemmap but not warpable so you can see if he is sitting within 40au or if you need to use observators.
Right now the 40 au probes seems a bit wasted because if you know where they are you can get at least close enough for a 20au and if you don't know then you really need to use observators as you have no idea if a 40au will reach or not.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 12:47:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Helison
Have you any evidence, that it is possible to scan for cans?
Hmm interesting. When Kali first came up on sisi one of the scan groups was named "containers" and you could use it to find secure cans. Now this group has been renamed to "Scrap" and I have no idea what it finds (wreaks don't show up at least and neither do cans).
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Zebler
Four Horsemen
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Posted - 2006.11.23 18:44:00 -
[235]
I've got a question about the timing of probes (yes I am new to covert ops, so bear with me)
I think a target vessel should need to be stationary (read not in warp), and present at the start of the scan, during the scan, and still be there at the end of the scan to get a result. Is this actually the case. What happens in the following situations?
Situation 1 - you are trying to find a hostile that is in scan range of your chosen probes, he sees your probes and warps off. Good for him. But his mate warps in to the original safespot. Your probes are already in space, and your now new target vessel was not present at the time the probes were launched. When the scan completes will it find him? I have a feeling it will, is that fair?
Situation 2 - you have someone bouncing between SS. He is stationary in the SS as you start the scan, but leaves the scan range when he bounces off and goes somewhere else. He returns before the scan is complete back to the original SS. Does the probe find him?
If probes can actually find ships under the above conditions, then the probe scan times do not make sense. The ships in the above situations were not present for the full scan time and should not be located?
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 20:26:00 -
[236]
Only thing that matters is if the target are inside the bubble the instant the scan finish. You could even have a target warping through the bubble and the scanner will point you to the point in space he where at the time the scan finished.
So in #1 you will find his mate and in #2 you will find him. Guess he should be a bit more careful about where he is warping :)
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Zebler
Four Horsemen
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Posted - 2006.11.24 10:24:00 -
[237]
Yeah, I had a feeling it would work like that :(
The whole point of a scan time is due to the vastness of space that needs to be searched. Does not really make sense that when a ship shows up at the last second (in an area that may have already been scanned) that it is suddenly found.
Oh well, cannot have it all.
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Triksterism
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Posted - 2006.11.24 10:48:00 -
[238]
observatory deep space probes seem like they can ***** deep safes really easily
1 problem though - i can see no way to make deep safes anymore as the scan deviation of the old probe was 92AU and the deviation of the new ODSP is 20,000km
if deep safes can no longer be made then should old safes still be allowed or is there another way that i have not found yet
also the description of probes still say 192au, 48au etc but the attributes have changed to 20, 40 au etc - will this be changed
(sorry if this has been mentioned already but i didnt read all previous 7 pages)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.24 11:32:00 -
[239]
I have found a lot of informations on ship scanning, almost none on cosmic signature. Someone has done extensive testing on those? In particular I need to know: 1) It is possible to get some results with the probes available at less than Astrosurvey 5? 2) What are the probes needed for Cosmic signature scanning? 3) The range from the nearest warpable point (belt, moon, planet, ecc.) of the signatures that have been found. 4) The strength of the signature. 5) Average number of try before finding a signature.
I know it is a serious list, but as I am currently training astrosurvey 4 on sisi and just completed it on Tranquility I need to know what I need for the search for the profession complex to get daqtacores and data interfaces.
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ZZandra
Amarr Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.24 11:40:00 -
[240]
I want to know if my cloaked Pilgrim can be found. Can it? Or can they just find the general area and I will still basically be safe?
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