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Caligula Gaius Claudian
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.04.18 11:49:48 -
[1] - Quote
Doubts:
Why does 99% of all T1 ships have 0% EM shield resist? What is the problem here? Why there is no resists on structure (hull)? Do resists skill books are valuable and worth of training?
Thoughts:
Remove these skill books and buff % of hardeners. Add basic resists to structure (hull).
Thx. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
172
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Posted - 2015.04.18 12:43:49 -
[2] - Quote
There is no problem.
Giving hull resists is the equivalent of increasing hull amount and hull rep at the same darn time. There are no hull resists because CCP decided it wanted hull to be 1) squishy and 2) hard to repair.
Resists define the relative strength of weapons against different sections of the ship.
If you're armour tanking, definitely train armour resistance skill. Look at what an Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II is. Compare it to an active hardener and it'll become obvious why there's differences and what the pros-and-cons of each are. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
270
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Posted - 2015.04.18 14:37:07 -
[3] - Quote
DCUII |
Bobb Bobbington
Where No Wormholes Have Gone Before
16
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Posted - 2015.04.18 14:53:35 -
[4] - Quote
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:Doubts:
Why does 99% of all T1 ships have 0% EM shield resist? What is the problem here? Why there is no resists on structure (hull)? Do resists skill books are valuable and worth of training?
Thoughts:
Remove these skill books and buff % of hardeners. Add basic resists to structure (hull).
Thx.
What's the problem with it? I don't see anything wrong with 0% resists on hull, noone seriously tanks that anyway except for a DCU. It's only used for baiting your tank being broken if you're active tanked in PvP. Also, for the EM resists, that's a weakness on all shield ships placed by CCP. You can use that to your advantage and hit his EM resists, but less skilled PvP players or those without damage choice won't. The varying amounts of resistances on any one hull just leads to more strategic decisions to be made by the players, overall improving the game. The shield resist skills are semi-usefull, but for sure train the armor ones to at least level 4. Also, this should probably be in F&I |
To mare
Advanced Technology
404
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Posted - 2015.04.18 15:11:04 -
[5] - Quote
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:Doubts:
please CCP make my training queue shorter and my fittings easier.
Thx.
not needed |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1152
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Posted - 2015.04.18 15:25:39 -
[6] - Quote
0 base hull resists means you get a choice between having that low slot for damage/speed/cargo/etc or having that extra buffer once you hit structure.
Some ships make damage controls worth it, some ships get on fine without one.
As for 0% em resist, why do shields get base 50% explosive resist? It's a design choice otherwise we might as well put 25% resist on everything and have no meaningful fitting choices ever. |
Daerrol
Furtherance.
112
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Posted - 2015.04.18 19:05:50 -
[7] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:0 base hull resists means you get a choice between having that low slot for damage/speed/cargo/etc or having that extra buffer once you hit structure.
Some ships make damage controls worth it, some ships get on fine without one.
As for 0% em resist, why do shields get base 50% explosive resist? It's a design choice otherwise we might as well put 25% resist on everything and have no meaningful fitting choices ever.
Have you ever tried fitting a gnosis? Ugh. Stacking penalties hit so fast. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1152
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 20:23:20 -
[8] - Quote
it's meant to be a ship that's easy to fit and performs well for low skilled players and fills that role nicely. If you ever try to field a gnosis against proper pvp capable ships you will find the shortcomings like the one you mentioned become painfully apparent. |
Caligula Gaius Claudian
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 21:04:29 -
[9] - Quote
So there is no any other explanation about EM shield resist only because CCP wants that? Meh... Why don't we have a 0% of explosive resist on armor? I mean same 10% on shield em resist would be great.
Hull tanking is a "new" way of pvp tanking and it's only became valuable after transversial bulkheads been added. What i don't understand is why structure doesn't have any resist figures. Is it made of paper or what? We dcu which gives a massive 60% but that's it.
In the mean time you could fit dcu + two invuls (eanms) + specific hsrdeners. Why simply hull can't have same ability (increasing resists total numbers).
I still haven't heard anything possitive about skill books. Should i really train them and if yes how about add skill books increasing hull resists? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7886
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Posted - 2015.04.18 21:34:18 -
[10] - Quote
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:Why does 99% of all T1 ships have 0% EM shield resist? What is the problem here? Why there is no resists on structure (hull)? - because it forces players to make choices - it kinda makes sense that an energy based field will be weakest against an energy based form of damage... unless properly reinforced. - because the Damage Control gives hull +60% resistances across the board... making it the single most useful mod for almost any ship... unless you have something "special" in mind (again... forcing players have to choose what they are willing to have and not have)
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:Do resists skill books are valuable and worth of training? Yes and no.
Resistance skills only affect "passive modules" (see: modules that you do not have to activate).
And even with perfect skills a "passive module" will never be as strong as an active module (in terms of how much resistance it gives both "cold" and overheated). However, you have to consider your ship's capacitor and whether it can handle all the cap hungry modules... especially when energy neutralizers might be used against you.
It is all about tradeoffs.
Quote:So there is no any other explanation about EM shield resist only because CCP wants that? Meh... Why don't we have a 0% of explosive resist on armor? I mean same 10% on shield em resist would be great.
Yes. Ultimately... it is because CCP said so. And generally the way things work here... if you want to change things you have offer up a good reason why.
Quote:Hull tanking is a "new" way of pvp tanking and it's only became valuable after transversial bulkheads been added. What i don't understand is why structure doesn't have any resist figures. Is it made of paper or what? We dcu which gives a massive 60% but that's it. Hull tanking is still VERY niche for a number of reasons (makes you slow... you can't get over 60% resistances in hull... Reinforced Bulkheads are percentage based, not raw HP based like armor plates or shield extenders are... not all ships have the necessary amount of native structure or slots to get viable HP numbers)
As for why hull has no resistances... *shrugs*... it was part of the design of the game. Hull is supposed to be the most fragile part of the ship unless properly reinforced. Originally... hull tanking was considered a "joke" form of tanking... something to troll your enemies into thinking they were winning at the cost of most other ship functions.
Quote:In the mean time you could fit dcu + two invuls (eanms) + specific hsrdeners. Why simply hull can't have same ability (increasing resists total numbers). Because the differences foster some form of diversity in ship fitting... preventing outright homogenization.
One ship may work better with specific hardeners. Other ships work better with omni-resistance membranes/plating/hardeners. Still other ships work better with a combination. And other ships are viable with only a single amplifier and nothing else.
Again... it is all about tradeoffs. What are you willing to sacrifice to give you the best form of protection within a given situation, tactic, and ship?
Bear in mind that change for the sake of change is not always a good idea. Especially when the the system already in place works (for better and worse).
Also bear in mind that your "arbitrary" changes are no different than the "arbitrary" way things are. Welcome to EVE. Everything is subjective.
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
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Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
169
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Posted - 2015.04.18 22:14:26 -
[11] - Quote
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:So there is no any other explanation about EM shield resist only because CCP wants that? Meh... Why don't we have a 0% of explosive resist on armor? I mean same 10% on shield em resist would be great.
Because shields are not armor. How come armor doesnt regenerate like shields? Because they are different, it provides variety in ship fitting.
Quote:Hull tanking is a "new" way of pvp tanking and it's only became valuable after transversial bulkheads been added. What i don't understand is why structure doesn't have any resist figures. Is it made of paper or what? We dcu which gives a massive 60% but that's it.
In the mean time you could fit dcu + two invuls (eanms) + specific hsrdeners. Why simply hull can't have same ability (increasing resists total numbers).
Because hull tanking is yet different again! Its magic! Oh wait, not magic but variety.
Quote:I still haven't heard anything possitive about skill books. Should i really train them and if yes how about add skill books increasing hull resists?
I can tell you all sorts of positive things about skill books. they let you learn new skills. They make for great kill/loss mails. Easy to transport. Essential for progression in Eve. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
120
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 22:55:24 -
[12] - Quote
lol @ Aerie, he was actually talking about resists skill books not the whole subject. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
169
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Posted - 2015.04.18 23:06:09 -
[13] - Quote
He specifically said;
Quote:I still haven't heard anything possitive about skill books.
Moreover, there are not any skills books that increase shield or armor resists either. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7886
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 00:18:12 -
[14] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:He specifically said; Quote:I still haven't heard anything possitive about skill books. Moreover, there are not any skills books that increase shield or armor resists either. None that straight out increase base ship resistances. Like I said above, the skillbooks only affect modules.
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
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Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
169
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Posted - 2015.04.19 00:25:40 -
[15] - Quote
This thread is 0.2 to 0.3 Lars. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
120
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Posted - 2015.04.19 01:01:19 -
[16] - Quote
You right skill books affecting modules which in the end affecting your ship shield and armor resists. |
Paranoid Loyd
4801
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Posted - 2015.04.19 01:02:31 -
[17] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:This thread is 0.2 to 0.3 Lars. Nah, there is no mention of the economics involved and this guy takes offense when you tell him what he doesn't want to hear. This is not Lars.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Vuko Draakkainen
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.04.19 01:12:01 -
[18] - Quote
damage control unit gives your structure resists 60% buff down from zero. and it's fine cause non of the other shields or armor single mod would boost that high your resists but that's a good question why does structure has 0 resists.
hull tanking is deff something pro way of pvp'ing. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
169
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 01:18:49 -
[19] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Aerie Evingod wrote:This thread is 0.2 to 0.3 Lars. Nah, there is no mention of the economics involved and this guy takes offense when you tell him what he doesn't want to hear. This is not Lars.
It may not be him, but content wise, 0.2 to 0.3. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1045
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 04:41:10 -
[20] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:0 base hull resists means you get a choice between having that low slot for damage/speed/cargo/etc or having that extra buffer once you hit structure.
Some ships make damage controls worth it, some ships get on fine without one.
As for 0% em resist, why do shields get base 50% explosive resist? It's a design choice otherwise we might as well put 25% resist on everything and have no meaningful fitting choices ever. Have you ever tried fitting a gnosis? Ugh. Stacking penalties hit so fast.
errm, I don't think you are calculating those right....
@ChainsawPlankto
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
395
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Posted - 2015.04.19 09:43:14 -
[21] - Quote
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:So there is no any other explanation about EM shield resist only because CCP wants that? Meh... Why don't we have a 0% of explosive resist on armor? I mean same 10% on shield em resist would be great. Because the feel of the two should be slightly different. The slightly higher mean resists on Armour make armour feel a harder tanking layer (which suits IMHO); harder but more difficult to rebuild (slow cycle time on reps) while shield rebuilds more easily (more hp/s repped) but not indefinitely (higher cap cost on shield boosters) and is a little less resilient.
I'm not sure what you think you'd gain if shield did have a 10% EM resist though - you'd still need the same slot to fill your EM hole, the same slots to achieve solid EM resists for PvE... Even the shield damage comp skills would still be as valuable (not very since inactive hardeners ceased to be effected). |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1153
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 11:12:45 -
[22] - Quote
It's partially due to lore as well. Armour would obviously have some slight resistance to explosive rounds but it's bad at blocking it.
All in all, it's designed like that to give us choices otherwise every ship would be the same.
@Shah, hull tanking does not make you slow! 7 bulkhead on a Navy mega only adds about 1.5seconds to align time and has 0 effect on velocity. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
637
|
Posted - 2015.04.19 15:27:23 -
[23] - Quote
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:Doubts:
Why does 99% of all T1 ships have 0% EM shield resist? What is the problem here? Why there is no resists on structure (hull)? Do resists skill books are valuable and worth of training?...
The simplest answer would be, reasonsGäó
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Caligula Gaius Claudian
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:44:52 -
[24] - Quote
So reading all the comments it turns to - it is what it is. Looks like there is no any other reason other than CCP made it this way and that's it.
Personal thanks to Shah who made an effort and put some spread comments. All ghe rest are just sarcastic commentors.
Hull tanking is really interesting option within pvp scale engagements. I'd like to look closer to that. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
405
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 13:46:46 -
[25] - Quote
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:So reading all the comments it turns to - it is what it is. Looks like there is no any other reason other than CCP made it this way and that's it. which is the same reason for all the other things in the game |
binaryAegis
Nova Express
0
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Posted - 2015.04.21 19:21:44 -
[26] - Quote
Which ship has more effective hit points, one with 2000 Hull and 0% resists or one with 1000 hull and 50% resists? Neither, they both have the exact same effective hit points.
Some of the resists in the game need to be 0% to act a a baseline to be able to clearly display tank and dps numbers. Let's say they changed it so that the lowest resist was 20% for example, and now consider a ship that puts out 1000 DPS on paper. Since every ship has at least 20% resists, that 1000 DPS number is meaningless because under no circumstances will that ship put out more than 800 effective dps. Instead of making things overly complicated like that, the baseline should be displayed as 0%, because whatever you set the lowest value to will be effectively 0% anyway. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
96
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Posted - 2015.04.22 01:32:49 -
[27] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:There is no problem.
Giving hull resists is the equivalent of increasing hull amount and hull rep at the same darn time. There are no hull resists because CCP decided it wanted hull to be 1) squishy and 2) hard to repair.
I hope you mean that if hull were at 50% resists, one repper would act like two in that scenario, while the hull hp would be essentially double in that scenario. Otherwise, increasing resist or hp alone doesn't act like hull rep.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
180
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Posted - 2015.04.22 02:24:09 -
[28] - Quote
That is precisely what I meant. |
Gipsy K1ng
STORM Squad Northern Associates.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.26 04:34:13 -
[29] - Quote
I see plenty of numbers and theorycrafting but they are all wrong. I will share the truth, it is like that because "Bob" created it that way...it does not have to make sense ,just accept it. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
130
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Posted - 2015.04.26 04:43:38 -
[30] - Quote
Gipsy K1ng wrote: I see plenty of numbers and theorycrafting but they are all wrong. I will share the truth, it is like that because "Bob" created it that way...it does not have to make sense ,just accept it.
Hello Ice Cube, thx for clearing this out. I hope that Bob's theory would also clear all other questions about eve. |
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