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Sakura Yoshimitsu
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Posted - 2006.10.31 03:01:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sakura Yoshimitsu on 31/10/2006 03:03:22 Isn't the whole point of missiles is that you trade instant damage for the ability to chose the damage type? How do you make one missile do more damage of one type then another if the missiles have the same warhead size/amount of damage inflicted? Does the kinetic warhead just somehow get miraculously bigger when fired out of the ship with the bonus? Amarr players complain all the time about being pigeon-holed into EM/Thermal damage why is it okay for the same to happen to Caldari? If your going to continue to remove all of the ROF bonuses from all the ships one by one, do the same to all the other races. Gallente only ever get Thermal Missile damage bonuses, Amarr get EM only damage bonuses, and Minmatar only get an Explosive missile damage bonus. If the problem is that 5% ROF is too much, then try the other 4 points of percentage to make it balanced, not this branded racial damage.
{edited title. The swearing filter missed the f-bomb?)
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2006.10.31 03:13:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Sakura Yoshimitsu Edited by: Sakura Yoshimitsu on 31/10/2006 03:03:22 Isn't the whole point of missiles is that you trade instant damage for the ability to chose the damage type? How do you make one missile do more damage of one type then another if the missiles have the same warhead size/amount of damage inflicted? Does the kinetic warhead just somehow get miraculously bigger when fired out of the ship with the bonus? Amarr players complain all the time about being pigeon-holed into EM/Thermal damage why is it okay for the same to happen to Caldari? If your going to continue to remove all of the ROF bonuses from all the ships one by one, do the same to all the other races. Gallente only ever get Thermal Missile damage bonuses, Amarr get EM only damage bonuses, and Minmatar only get an Explosive missile damage bonus. If the problem is that 5% ROF is too much, then try the other 4 points of percentage to make it balanced, not this branded racial damage.
{edited title. The swearing filter missed the f-bomb?)
1) When have you ever seen a min/gal/amarr ship with missile bonuses? I think theres maybe 1 per race. 2) No, you sacrifice the ability to deal instant damage for the ability to always hit anything at any speed. (Crazy fast intys and torps excepted) 3) Every other race has specific damage types, why shouldn't you?
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. |
Sakura Yoshimitsu
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Posted - 2006.10.31 03:26:00 -
[3]
So if I replace "5% bonus Drones Damage" with "5% bonus thermal Drone damage" to all Gallente droneships that would be acceptable for you?
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.10.31 03:29:00 -
[4]
There's a difference between 5% and 10%.
Also, all the other drones already do lower DPS, and changing it to +Thermal would leave those other drones even further behind than they already are.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.31 03:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Sakura Yoshimitsu So if I replace "5% bonus Drones Damage" with "5% bonus thermal Drone damage" to all Gallente droneships that would be acceptable for you?
Drones already have a built in damage progression, i.e. thermal>kinetic>explosive>em. Missles on the other hand do the same damage across the board.
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Futuri
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2006.10.31 03:46:00 -
[6]
Although I agree that the kinetic damage bonus isn't as good as a generic dps bonus, changing 5% drone damage to 10% thermal drone damage is a boost not a nerf :p
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.10.31 04:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Futuri Although I agree that the kinetic damage bonus isn't as good as a generic dps bonus, changing 5% drone damage to 10% thermal drone damage is a boost not a nerf :p
There was never any 5% drone damage bonus. On any ship. What there was, was a +1 drone/level bonus. Which is the exact same as our current +10%. The Thermal damage that got changed would have been hugely nerfing their use of any other drones, as they'd lose a huge chunk of DPS from what they had previously, to what they'd have had after the change.
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Shaala
Caldari Singularity Services
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:17:00 -
[8]
precision light missiles... what a laugh when flying at 12000 m/s :D "Missiles hit anything at any speed, except Torps vs superfast ceptors", you sure made me laugh ^^
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Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sakura Yoshimitsu Edited by: Sakura Yoshimitsu on 31/10/2006 03:03:22 Isn't the whole point of missiles is that you trade instant damage for the ability to chose the damage type? How do you make one missile do more damage of one type then another if the missiles have the same warhead size/amount of damage inflicted? Does the kinetic warhead just somehow get miraculously bigger when fired out of the ship with the bonus? Amarr players complain all the time about being pigeon-holed into EM/Thermal damage why is it okay for the same to happen to Caldari? If your going to continue to remove all of the ROF bonuses from all the ships one by one, do the same to all the other races. Gallente only ever get Thermal Missile damage bonuses, Amarr get EM only damage bonuses, and Minmatar only get an Explosive missile damage bonus. If the problem is that 5% ROF is too much, then try the other 4 points of percentage to make it balanced, not this branded racial damage.
{edited title. The swearing filter missed the f-bomb?)
Yea. You guys get to lose a whole big of 25% Damage on a great damage type while the Amarr have to deal with an immense EM bias.
Caldari have no right to complain about being weak during Kali.
Last Weeks Signature |
Sakura Yoshimitsu
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Siakel The Thermal damage that got changed would have been hugely nerfing their use of any other drones, as they'd lose a huge chunk of DPS from what they had previously, to what they'd have had after the change.
So its just okay to do it to Caldari Ship then? Thats the exact same reason I don't like Kinetic damage bonuses because it forces me to use that damage type and makes the others less useful to anyone using that ship. The Caldari's racial weapons are Rails and Missiles. Gallente are Blasters and Drones. We both do Thermal/Kinetic for our guns and drone/missiles do any damage you want provided you loaded the proper drone/ammo. So why is it okay to put Caldari's ability to inflict any damage they want but not okay for the Gallente's Drones?
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Sakura Yoshimitsu
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:38:00 -
[11]
Exactly Aeaus, There should be an ability to vary your damage type no matter what race your flying to some degree. Like maybe the Mircowave Crystals inflict almost all thermal or something, not 2/3's
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Albrecht Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:15:00 -
[12]
I have found that a ship with a racial damage bonuses to be nigh worthless seeing as how most, if not all "good" PVP ships all have generic DPS bonuses or a rate of fire bonus. Either make everyone stick to their racial damage types, or make the bonuses apply to each races appropriate weapon type, not damage. This half and half buisness needs to go. ------------------------------------- KD Director of Foreign Relations ------------------------------------- Join "TKI-net"/"Directivenet" for more information |
Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aeaus
Yea. You guys get to lose a whole big of 25% Damage on a great damage type while the Amarr have to deal with an immense EM bias.
Caldari have no right to complain about being weak during Kali.
Well actually gallente drone ships should have the same restrictions, that is bonus to only thermal drone damage, that would only be fair right?
And caldari complaining about kali, lol. ECM is getting nerfed and missiles are getting nerfed, what's not to like. But atleast they are getting the rokh so they can use those mighty 425mm T2, to bad over 60% of eve's population are either gallente or caldari, and using those guns. I'm gonna love buying them at 20-25 mil/ gun unless inventions really can do something about that.
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Frools
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Drones already have a built in damage progression, i.e. thermal>kinetic>explosive>em. Missles on the other hand do the same damage across the board.
quoting this because most people seem to have missed it
weapon systems that can 'choose damage type' projectiles: reduced damage depending on which ammo you use, does not let you choose 100dps kin or 100dps thermal missiles: for the most part you get kin bonuses, so you lose dps if you switch damage type drones: thermal drones do the most damage, em the least, switching damage type changes your dps
missiles already have some huge advantages over other weapon system, no need for more
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix 3) Every other race has specific damage types, why shouldn't you?
Were you around when tux/TomB were going to make all Gallente drone damage bonuses only be to thermal?
Did you see the insane amount of yelling about it?
There's about about 30x as much when it comes to kinetic-only bonuses, spread over a much longer period of time.
Do Amarr get EM-only as their bonus to dmg? no, it's just turret damage, same with minmatar, and Gallente, and Gallente drone bonuses to damage are universal.
Caldari are the only race who get a single damage-type for their bonuses.
Caldari 'specific damage' is kinetic, that's fine and dandy. That doesn't mean that they should be held back in a way no other ship is.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Aeaus
Yea. You guys get to lose a whole big of 25% Damage on a great damage type while the Amarr have to deal with an immense EM bias.
Caldari have no right to complain about being weak during Kali.
Well actually gallente drone ships should have the same restrictions, that is bonus to only thermal drone damage, that would only be fair right?
And caldari complaining about kali, lol. ECM is getting nerfed and missiles are getting nerfed, what's not to like. But atleast they are getting the rokh so they can use those mighty 425mm T2, to bad over 60% of eve's population are either gallente or caldari, and using those guns. I'm gonna love buying them at 20-25 mil/ gun unless inventions really can do something about that.
We also get the drake, and that thing is going to smoke any HAC that flies within 10km on it.
Heck it might kill soem badly setup CBCs too.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Areconus
Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Originally by: Sakura Yoshimitsu Edited by: Sakura Yoshimitsu on 31/10/2006 03:03:22 Isn't the whole point of missiles is that you trade instant damage for the ability to chose the damage type? How do you make one missile do more damage of one type then another if the missiles have the same warhead size/amount of damage inflicted? Does the kinetic warhead just somehow get miraculously bigger when fired out of the ship with the bonus? Amarr players complain all the time about being pigeon-holed into EM/Thermal damage why is it okay for the same to happen to Caldari? If your going to continue to remove all of the ROF bonuses from all the ships one by one, do the same to all the other races. Gallente only ever get Thermal Missile damage bonuses, Amarr get EM only damage bonuses, and Minmatar only get an Explosive missile damage bonus. If the problem is that 5% ROF is too much, then try the other 4 points of percentage to make it balanced, not this branded racial damage.
{edited title. The swearing filter missed the f-bomb?)
1) When have you ever seen a min/gal/amarr ship with missile bonuses? I think theres maybe 1 per race. 2) No, you sacrifice the ability to deal instant damage for the ability to always hit anything at any speed. (Crazy fast intys and torps excepted) 3) Every other race has specific damage types, why shouldn't you?
Why shouldn't we have specific dmg types? Maybe because not only do our missiles do less dps than any other race (t2 excluded, which is getting a nerf), they also take lots of time to hit something at range
Gloria Stitz-
"Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously" |
Albrecht Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix 3) Every other race has specific damage types, why shouldn't you?
Were you around when tux/TomB were going to make all Gallente drone damage bonuses only be to thermal?
Did you see the insane amount of yelling about it?
There's about about 30x as much when it comes to kinetic-only bonuses, spread over a much longer period of time.
Do Amarr get EM-only as their bonus to dmg? no, it's just turret damage, same with minmatar, and Gallente, and Gallente drone bonuses to damage are universal.
Caldari are the only race who get a single damage-type for their bonuses.
Caldari 'specific damage' is kinetic, that's fine and dandy. That doesn't mean that they should be held back in a way no other ship is.
My point exactly. Lets get everyone on the same, playing field, not some on one and the rest on the other. ------------------------------------- Join "TKI-net"/"Directivenet" for more information |
Seria Tuanton
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:02:00 -
[19]
I'd just like to say having flown all the races in the game to a good standard (tech 2 guns etc) Caldari's missile bonus in my opinion doesnt need to change, I can see your reasoning but think about it, all gallente do with their guns (which on many of their ships is the main weapon) is thermal and kin, similarly amarr only do Em and thermal. So if someones tanking you for 65% resists + on all stats, whats the difference between using one damage type or using four? I'm primarily a minmatar pilot and while its handy to have all the damage types for missions, in gang pvp (which is the best part of the game imo) where most people are tanked anyway it honestly makes no difference to if your doing four damage types or one, for example my armor tank on a certain ship is 71.556%exp/73%kin/75.236%therm/78%EM so if your doing 25% additional to kinetic rather than having an all round missile damage bonus when on bigger ships especially your garunteed a hit so to speak. I personally just dont feel caldari should be made any better at this stage in time. My fully tanked phoon got dropped to 10% armor in like 45 second by two ravens only survived because my friend brought some jammers just in time (which might I add while they are getting a nerf in kali, they still work nicely). So please don't change it unless it becomes a serious problem (which it won't) after kali
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Scorpyn
Caldari The Patriot Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:23:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 01/11/2006 00:26:38
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix 2) No, you sacrifice the ability to deal instant damage for the ability to always hit anything at any speed. (Crazy fast intys and torps excepted)
I'm kind of tired of seeing that argument being made by the turret users all the time. If you consider a hit of 0.6 enough to be useful then you've got a very crappy shield regen.
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia We also get the drake, and that thing is going to smoke any HAC that flies within 10km on it.
Not likely, the current assault missile (or whatever they've decided to call the heavy torps) have the wrong stats - it'll probably have a lot lower damage output in the end.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix 3) Every other race has specific damage types, why shouldn't you?
Were you around when tux/TomB were going to make all Gallente drone damage bonuses only be to thermal?
Did you see the insane amount of yelling about it?
There's about about 30x as much when it comes to kinetic-only bonuses, spread over a much longer period of time.
Do Amarr get EM-only as their bonus to dmg? no, it's just turret damage, same with minmatar, and Gallente, and Gallente drone bonuses to damage are universal.
Caldari are the only race who get a single damage-type for their bonuses.
Caldari 'specific damage' is kinetic, that's fine and dandy. That doesn't mean that they should be held back in a way no other ship is.
Agreed.
Perhaps make it like drones, so kinetic missiles do the most base damage (by a slight margin).
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Talthrus
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:48:00 -
[22]
There is one gigantic flaw in your view right now: All missiles do the EXACT same amount of damage with the same EXACT stats.
Drone damage varies by damage type in addition to turrets moving along their damage type spectrum with the different ranges.
If you want a blanket missile damage bonus then missile damage must vary by type. Kinetic will be the most damaging and will be = to the current bonus damage. The other missiles will have to have varying degrees of damage.
Take a look at drones right now. The damage bonus favors a certain type (namely thermal) because they do the highest base damage out of the drones.
As if Caldari weren't already overpowered enough ... ----------------------
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Albrecht Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:25:00 -
[23]
Then by all means do so, at least then we are varying the damage done by missiles in the appropriate and logical way instead of "for some reason, this type of missile works better on this ship." The platform shouldnt have any control on how much damage the missle does as that is determined by the warhead payload and how well the missile tracks. Now it can be argued that the platform can vary the DPS through better guidance to the target (ala better precision), but that is a logical way to increase damage instead of "this one is more effective because we say so" but increasing precision as a general to increase damage would make them too effective. The Caldari are better at using missiles than anyone else. Why can't we be more proficient with them in ways that make sense (i.e. we can fire them faster and more accurately than others) instead of doing more damage with the exact same warhead that everyone else uses. ------------------------------------- Join "TKI-net"/"Directivenet" for more information |
Sakura Yoshimitsu
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Posted - 2006.11.18 10:51:00 -
[24]
Looks like this "bonus" has claimed another victim.
R.I.P Drake
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Aeaus
Yea. You guys get to lose a whole big of 25% Damage on a great damage type while the Amarr have to deal with an immense EM bias.
Caldari have no right to complain about being weak during Kali.
Well actually gallente drone ships should have the same restrictions, that is bonus to only thermal drone damage, that would only be fair right?
Thermal drones do 39% more damage than EM drones.
If Gallente drone ships got restricted to thermal drones only, then the damage modifier of T1 drones need to be boosted to 1.6 for ALL drones (and Amarr drone ships would have to have an EM drone damage bonus only). Additionally, all drones would have to have more or less equal stats, particularly the velocity and tracking stats would need to be increased.
OP, come again when it looks like this: 1. Missile damage has been reduced to 62.5% of original. 2. Kinetic missiles have a damage modifier of 1.6 (but are slowest) 3. Thermal missiles have a damage modifier of 1.45 4. Explosive missiles have a damage modifier of 1.3 (and are fastest) 5. EM missiles have a damage modifier of 1.15 (but are sturdier and require more dfenders/smartbombs to take out) 6. Stealth Bombers have been changed away from racial damage. - EVE is sick. |
Severa Crest
Nomina Sacra Sapientia Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:18:00 -
[26]
Make missiles do mixed damage types - problem solved
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:23:00 -
[27]
Well, I've already posted a whine (here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427482)
IMO either missiles are intentionally similar - every heavy missile identical, just with a different colour warhead, or they're intended to be different.
In the latter case it still makes more sense to me to vary the _missile_ rather than just having one 'type' stand out as 25% more damaging, when fired from a caracal.
I don't think it needs to be a big difference, but I'm thinking that EVE would be better off if there were reasons to choose any of the missile designs _aside_ from damage type. As it is, there's a measure of variance in drones. I like that, it makes things more interesting. I think missiles should do the same.
I don't mind either way, if the aim is racial damage variance, but I do think that 100%/80%/80%/80% is far less interesting than 100%/90%/80%/70% - especially when you have other factors to 'balance' the damage of the missiles, such that e.g. the explosive ones might do lower damage than kinetic, but might be better at hitting smaller targets.
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Electric Cucumber
Amarr coracao ardente Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:23:00 -
[28]
kestrel and caracal have kinetic bonus = fine drake = omg whine fest..yeah right
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Electric Cucumber kestrel and caracal have kinetic bonus = fine drake = omg whine fest..yeah right
I dislike seeing kestrel and caracal with 'kinetic bonus' only too, and would like to see that changed. However I figure there's more chance that the Drake still isn't 'set in stone' than the older existing ships will be rejigged.
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Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.18 13:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: nexvis Edited by: nexvis on 18/11/2006 13:32:29
Originally by: Shaala precision light missiles... what a laugh when flying at 12000 m/s :D "Missiles hit anything at any speed, except Torps vs superfast ceptors", you sure made me laugh ^^
So quit expecting to omgpwn people with snake sets and faction fit crows/crusaders worth more than every ship you've ever owned combined.
the 'average' interceptor is about 4000m/s, a 'good' ceptor pilot is approaching 4500. uber is above 5k. if you spent more than 3 hours on missile skills, you should be able to hit them (obviously not for full damage, but too bad, nobody wlse hits them for full damage if any at all). anything faster is just rich people with expensive toys, and they paid a lot of isk for you to not be able to touch them.
Quit crying.
qft
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