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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
231
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Posted - 2015.04.21 05:55:45 -
[1] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. They won't admit it.
Yeah, that's exactly how being neg ten works. Your ranting has really gone off the deep end lately.
What highsec mercs are -10? The only -10 players in highsec are dedicated gank alts. And I know you know this. The wardec spamming station huggers are all positive sec and rely on CONCORD protection just as much as their targets. CONCORD makes sure no one else interferes with their seal clubbing.
I would love to see someone try to undock their blingy t3 while being -10.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
233
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Posted - 2015.04.21 06:02:32 -
[2] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Mr Deleted wrote:highsec is overrated, lowsec is where its at, and it solves the war deccing problems, all the war deccers cant go to lowsec, thats where real fights are Like taking a Stratios, Broadsword, Proteus and Gnosis to kill an Interon Mk V, Sigil or Badger? Or even more ships to kill a Mackinaw? Those sorts of fights? Seems plausible. They look so much more real than what the highsec pvpers do.
You just described 99% of highsec pvp. I've never seen a mackinaw in lowsec.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
234
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Posted - 2015.04.21 06:09:08 -
[3] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? Edit: Quote:Ive done it all: Build caps; Military Director for a Large Sov holding allaince; FC for small gang leet pvp low sec; FC for high skilled high sec mercs Yeah uh, I'm not buying it.
You don't see the logical conclusion of this argument. You want PvP focused bittervets with a half dozen alts apiece to be able to kick the **** out of everyone else, anywhere in the game. And you don't see why this is bad.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
234
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Posted - 2015.04.21 06:13:28 -
[4] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:You just described 99% of highsec pvp. I've never seen a mackinaw in lowsec.
Go and look at that guy's killboard. He is ridiculing highsec pvpers on the basis that 'real fights' happen in lowsec. But he is doing just the same. It's the typical double standard argument.
There are very few real fights in EVE. Everybody wants an easy gank. But the risk-reward for highsec mercs is broken.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
234
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Posted - 2015.04.21 06:14:38 -
[5] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Even the "deny the playing of the game" mechanics are being reviewed and/or changed. In just about every thread when this comes up, most people on both sides of the argument express the view that the wardec system needs to be changed. Not everyone, but many have the view that the mechanic could be improved. The -10 argument doesn't really have any place in this thread, since that is a separate thing. This one's about highsec wardec mechanics being broken, not gankers.
Kaarous is the one that dropped the -10 red herring I believe.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
246
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Posted - 2015.04.22 01:20:33 -
[6] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? Edit: Quote:Ive done it all: Build caps; Military Director for a Large Sov holding allaince; FC for small gang leet pvp low sec; FC for high skilled high sec mercs Yeah uh, I'm not buying it. You don't see the logical conclusion of this argument. You want PvP focused bittervets with a half dozen alts apiece to be able to kick the **** out of everyone else, anywhere in the game. And you don't see why this is bad. No, what I want is you people to understand that I've earned my right to mine and run missions in peace. It wasn't given to me for free.
You've earned nothing. The simple fact that you've invested an inordinate amount of time and money into this computer game does not entitle you to risk free content. You might aswell ask for a 1 trillion ISK instant kill button, because it's the same logic.
If you remove the ability to evade wardecs, you will render highsec meaningless because the bittervets with huge piles of ISK will wardec everyone.
I don't get it, I just don't understand what you want short of making highsec into lowsec for those with the ISK stacks to wardec spam.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
247
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Posted - 2015.04.22 17:53:58 -
[7] - Quote
If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
247
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Posted - 2015.04.22 18:40:38 -
[8] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets.
I proposed a limit on wardecs. Both to offensive and assistance.
I saw that comment. My statement was more directed to the people who don't see a problem with the current system aside from the fact that wars can be avoided.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2015.04.22 19:07:07 -
[9] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. That was the initial design of the game. Even if wardecs were not avoidable, highsec would be very much safer than lowsec because you have a short and defined list of who can attack you at any given moment, as opposed to everyone in lowsec. It is called highsec, not safesec. Knowing, and having shown to you in local, the small number of people that can shoot you legally is definitely higher security than what is found in lowsec and elsewhere.
Initial design does not necessarily mean best design. The game has undergone numerous changes both good and bad depending on who you ask.
There is a short, defined list of who can attack you in lowsec and nullsec also. It's called local.
It's called high security space. Not low or null. It is intended to be safer. If a highsec pvp group can wardec me on a whim because I was seen undocking in something bigger than a T1 cruiser, how is that any different in practice than lowsec? Ubiquitous wardecs would break highsec in a matter of weeks, and considering how much of the player base is in highsec, it's no wonder CCP has gone in the opposite direction.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2015.04.22 19:13:40 -
[10] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I don't think most people really advocate for making avoiding wars in any way impossible Or even particularly difficult, rather they want there to be some consequence for things like dropping out of and closing corps. As it stands there isn't much in the way of consequences for using war evading tactics and the tactics are brutally effective.
It's a bitter pill to swallow when the justification given for the pricing and cost scaling of wars was "paying for targets". I'd you really are paying for targets should you not reasonably expect to get the targets you paid for?
If 50M a week was in any way significant to someone who's been playing for years or people who have demonstrated a tendency to sink real world money into PLEX, alts, and bought characters, I'd agree with you.
At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2015.04.22 19:24:12 -
[11] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts.
Do it. I dare you. At least you'd be talking about something you know a bit about. as opposed to the nullbears defending their risk free supply line. D.
Only problem is I really like being able to get 2 of the best ships in the game really cheaply through FW, and I can't travel through Amarr or Caldari space, once again due to FW.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2015.04.22 19:55:09 -
[12] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Danalee wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts.
Do it. I dare you. At least you'd be talking about something you know a bit about. as opposed to the nullbears defending their risk free supply line. D. Only problem is I really like being able to get 2 of the best ships in the game really cheaply through FW, and I can't travel through Amarr or Caldari space, once again due to FW. Wah? Can't fly through certain systems? How is that an issue? You'd be raking in isks from dropping fleets on miners and newbies everywhere at the same time? right? Anyhow, there are standing repair plans for that if you really think it's an issue. Too much effort already? D.
You've convinced me. Is Marmite recruiting? Where do I sign up? Is there a minimum neutral alt requirement?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2015.04.22 20:45:29 -
[13] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Initial design does not necessarily mean best design. The game has undergone numerous changes both good and bad depending on who you ask.
There is a short, defined list of who can attack you in lowsec and nullsec also. It's called local.
It's called high security space. Not low or null. It is intended to be safer. If a highsec pvp group can wardec me on a whim because I was seen undocking in something bigger than a T1 cruiser, how is that any different in practice than lowsec? Ubiquitous wardecs would break highsec in a matter of weeks, and considering how much of the player base is in highsec, it's no wonder CCP has gone in the opposite direction.
My point was that highsec is suppose to have risk, and more importantly is a place intended to have conflict. Wardecs are intended to allow that conflict to take place albeit in a slightly limited manner where you are not fighting everyone and anyone at once. That is a far cry from lowsec and a much safer environment, or "higher" security. You were never intended by CCP, or are now required to be locked into a war. The NPC corp is suppose to be a place for you flee to if you have had enough of a war. The problem is when players gain all the benefits of being in a player corp (which are suppose to be subject to wardecs) with none of the downsides of the NPC corp by briefly fleeing to them after a wardec is declared to shed the dec. I am not sure where you think we do not have ubiquitous wardecs right now. Any corp can be wardecced at anytime and in any number by another willing to pay the cost. All that exists now is this loophole that allows small corporations without in-space assets to dodge them trivially. Large corps and ones reliant on POSes are completely subject to the whims of highsec PvP groups as the game was originally designed - just look at the OP of this threadnaught. It will be very interesting to see how new in-space structures change this balance. This loophole could very well close itself if carebears decide that these new in-space structures are necessary for their gameplay.
We have significantly less wardecs now than we would if they were unavoidable and NPC corps were heavily disincentivized, which is what you lot are arguing for.
If me and my friends can, for a trivial price, engage anyone we want in highsec; how is that different in any meaningful way? |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
249
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 21:11:03 -
[14] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If me and my friends can, for a trivial price, engage anyone we want in highsec; how is that different in any meaningful way?
Yes, when you and your dinky friends wardec anyone it's game over for them isn't it You could single handedly ruin hisec for everyone! It's not like players in Hisec are real people that can talk and maybe play the game and stuff... Jeezus, how could we be so blind. D.
How do you play the game while being permacamped by people you don't have the SP or assets to fight?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2015.04.23 04:08:41 -
[15] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Dracvlad wrote:The issue is that it really depends on your own conduct, this type of war with Marmite is utterly boring, my experienced members just have no interest in chasing around Marmites GTFO type of play, so they are all playing GTA 5. When I was around there was one roam, while I was away they did three roams and we did not get anything to shoot and were happy to lose the ships we were in. So now my corpmates are not logging in, that is at the core of the issue, I have PvP players who find Marmite so boring that they don't bother logging in and I feel bad because I got them to come back to the game, wish I had waited until the 0.0 changes had been applied, would have been better.
But I did give it 18 days and we did go look for some fights, so its just one of those things. Killing Marmite is not hard. They're fractional, bad at communication and careless. Their own behaviour and methods of operation render them comically vulnerable to people who're willing to attack them. They aren't boring, they're always active and they're never paying attention to you specifically. You used the term "roam" which tells me that you just don't know how to achieve kills in a highsec war, which is understandable considering the unusual nature of highsec. Specific tactics for fighting highsec wars are a little tangetical to the subject of the thread, but considering the ten billion isk in kills my alliance has achieved since we declared war on them earlier this year I can tell you for a fact that it's not Marmite that is preventing you from killing them, it is that you aren't using appropriate tactics. It's not a problem with wars that defenders don't know how to fight them, not exactly. It's a problem that highsec PVP is so rare and so exclusively dominated by dedicated PVP groups that people who aren't part of those groups never learn how to effectively fight those wars. Subsequently the post inferno meta has shifted to incredibly weak, passive defenders trying to evade wars by using corp mechanics or not logging in for weeks at a time and large, powerful groups of aggressors having to take a shotgun approach to find enough opponents who actually undock ships.
Station hugging. Neutral logi and gank Vindis. Logon traps. Am I close?
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