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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:00:00 -
[1]
Just leave the stats as they are, and walk away calmly from the PC. No-one will get hurt.
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Citizen X
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:08:00 -
[2]
Stop you god **** whining. You used use anti matter andyou will again.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:10:00 -
[3]
lol, yeah
which makes t2 blaster ammo kinda... pointless?
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:11:00 -
[4]
/signed
<3 |
Flaming sambuka
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:23:00 -
[5]
/signed with my 1000 arms
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services |
Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Citizen X Stop you god **** whining. You used use anti matter andyou will again.
So you get to use Barrage while we get Null nerfed to the stoneage? Oh thats balenced for sure.
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wierchas noobhunter
Caldari Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:31:00 -
[7]
/signed
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Flaming sambuka
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:33:00 -
[8]
Null = long range blaster ammo, tracking hit means pointless at long range so... why???
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services |
Friedrick Psitalon
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:34:00 -
[9]
I'm going to start a thread for the folks tired of the ranting and whining, who are looking to adjust and evolve with new ship layouts and new ideas.
Are there changes that will throw the current system awry? Absolutely. Do we have better things to do than complain about it? I certainly hope so.
Yes, t2 ammo is getting thumped. Yes, ammo-using folks are getting thumped. Yes, capacitor-hungry setups are going to suffer. Yes, God hates Gallentes. Or doesn't. It's irrelevant. Yes, Caldaris are going to enjoy the benefits of these changes more than others.
Great. We've got that settled. The world isn't fair.
Can we move on, please? Join in on one of the already-existing complaint threads instead of lobbing up another.
The Dead Parrot Shoppe: always hiring the intelligent/mature, ubernoob or vet. Experience we can give you; brains, we can't. |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Flaming sambuka Null = long range blaster ammo, tracking hit means pointless at long range so... why???
What exactly is long range, when you say it like that?..
25km is absolut maximum in most situations, and thats in absolut falloff..
IT DOES MATTER... ffs
<3 |
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:35:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:34:58 Can't find the thread. What are they doing to T2 Blaster ammo? Since atm it isn't really that speacial... At least compared to AM. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:35:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 02/11/2006 17:35:25
Originally by: Flaming sambuka Null = long range blaster ammo, tracking hit means pointless at long range so... why???
What is worse, is that this is only half the story.
On small ships like the Taranis and Thorax which often rely on transversal to stay alive, Null will be completely useless. No-one in their right mind would use it.
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Wolverine PL
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:35:00 -
[13]
Leave all t2 close range ammo as it is. Change long range, and I will be happy:P
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Citizen X Stop you god **** whining. You used use anti matter andyou will again.
Dude.. its a forum, for discussion.
Balance is essential for a game like this, to go on.
Should we just sit back and wait for the bang, and see what we trained for, go down the drain?
go back to antimatter?.. meh, yeah, if t2 was removed all together, silly boy.
<3 |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:34:58 Can't find the thread. What are they doing to T2 Blaster ammo? Since atm it isn't really that speacial... At least compared to AM.
Damage, Falloff reduction to Void.
Damage, 50% tracking reduction to Null (yes you did read that correctly, they are killing Null dead).
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:39:00 -
[16]
50... friggin ... percent..
/me tells his mate to sell his large null bpo
<3 |
Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:34:58 Can't find the thread. What are they doing to T2 Blaster ammo? Since atm it isn't really that speacial... At least compared to AM.
They're nerfing the tracking of Null. Which mean's noone will ever use it.
We used Null because all the blaster ship's could use a little extra range at the expence of damage, that what T2 ammo is for, barrage gets the same thing yet it stays unchanged.
No we sacrifice damage AND tracking... so wtf is the point of using it? In ANY situation? and why does barrage not get the same nerf?
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Wolverine PL
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: Flaming sambuka Null = long range blaster ammo, tracking hit means pointless at long range so... why???
What exactly is long range, when you say it like that?..
25km is absolut maximum in most situations, and thats in absolut falloff..
Null isnt only for long range, null is also againts cruiser/frig size ship (if its NULL L), if its NULL M then againts frigs.
IT DOES MATTER... ffs
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Krulla
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wolverine PL
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: Flaming sambuka Null = long range blaster ammo, tracking hit means pointless at long range so... why???
What exactly is long range, when you say it like that?..
25km is absolut maximum in most situations, and thats in absolut falloff..
Null isnt only for long range, null is also againts cruiser/frig size ship (if its NULL L), if its NULL M then againts frigs.
IT DOES MATTER... ffs
Exactly!
I find this nerf very odd, I never found Null very overpowered (or Barrage, for that matter)... but what strikes me the most is that while Barrage and Null had basically identical stats, Barrage gives a bigger bonus, because autocannons have way bigger faloff than blasters. Null isn't overpowered, why nerf it?
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Damage, Falloff reduction to Void.
Damage, 50% tracking reduction to Null (yes you did read that correctly, they are killing Null dead).
Why would anyone ever use Null after that again?
Well, I guess I'll just try to buy the BPOs, since they will be cheap and sit on them till uptune or something... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
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Flaming sambuka
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:47:00 -
[21]
To LWMaverick, you pretty much answered your own question.
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services |
Hellraiza666
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:51:00 -
[22]
SIGNED. Plz CCP dont be ****ers, dont nerf null!
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:52:00 -
[23]
Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:54:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:54:26
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
Perhaps, but not a nerf to oblivion. Can you perhaps run numbers for us for, dps in 15km or 20km, ACpest and Bthron? ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:58:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 02/11/2006 18:00:00
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
Hardly obselete.
Thats like saying the 'geddon is obselete because rails with javlin stamped on their territory.
A claw with barrage is only in its optimal when im stretching the limit of hits/falloff in my ranis with null.
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:54:26
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
Perhaps, but not a nerf to oblivion. Can you perhaps run numbers for us for, dps in 15km or 20km, ACpest and Bthron?
Yes please.
<3 |
Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
utter bull****
Euro Empire/0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:03:00 -
[28]
omg blaster pilots are gana have to get in close to do good damage!?!?! and they won't be able to out DPS the tempest at 17-19km.THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!
---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
Then why not give it a falloff reduction, or lower the optimal a bit... seriously, 50% tracking is ftl, bigtime.
Imagine a hyperion, with null ammo (37.5% lower tracking speed, compared to the megathron at lvl 5)
<3 |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: xeom omg blaster pilots are gana have to get in close to do good damage!?!?! and they won't be able to out DPS the tempest at 17-19km.THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!
Why would they nerf the tracking then, and not the range?...
<3 |
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Flaming sambuka
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:06:00 -
[31]
Originally by: xeom omg blaster pilots are gana have to get in close to do good damage!?!?! and they won't be able to out DPS the tempest at 17-19km.THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!
Agreed, how on earth will we be able to kill autopests now? please, please un-nerf the nerf
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:07:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 02/11/2006 18:07:55
Originally by: xeom omg blaster pilots are gana have to get in close to do good damage!?!?! and they won't be able to out DPS the tempest at 17-19km.THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!
Null will be useless at more than web range on large ships, and 100% useless on small ships which rely on transversal to stay alive, if the Kali test changes are implemented.
This kills the ammo stone dead. Its over the top.
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Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:09:00 -
[33]
Originally by: xeom omg blaster pilots are gana have to get in close to do good damage!?!?! and they won't be able to out DPS the tempest at 17-19km.THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!
Oh ok, so my 'ranis sitting at 2.7k in optimal + falloff isn't in range is it? I suppose you're ignoring the fact most close range 'ceptor fights yoyo between 0m to 7.5k when you both get into range.
Or are you just moaning because you, in your faster, more agile tempest can't be arsed to use his extra range to get out of the way of a mega, who can only keep you still if you gets within 10k, and completely ignoring the utility slot you get.
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Dammar
Ephorate
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:10:00 -
[34]
ZOOMG LOOKIT ALL TEH ***LENTY WHIERNERS STFU UR SHIPZ R FINEE!!!1
ps. hands off t2 ammo CCP...either that or delete the Rokh. Your choice.
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Zosimos Sabina
Amarr Loot
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:11:00 -
[35]
Who knows why they fiddled with tracking instead of range to balance Null.
But with Pre-Kali Null, IIRC, max skilled Megathron has more DPS and more tracking than ACPest up to 24-26 KM. It was broke :/
Furthermore, Minmatar Hail L has less ammo damage than Void and autocannons have less base dps on top of that.
I think they're trying to make Gallente more focused on short-short range and Minmatar short-medium range.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:11:00 -
[36]
i thought blasters track preety well (compared to other weapons) and dont you need less tracking at range, so what you mean is "my null wont hit small stuff at range any more?
Ohnoes, take a look at jav torps they are getting a similar nerf.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:17:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 02/11/2006 18:20:01
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:54:26
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
Perhaps, but not a nerf to oblivion. Can you perhaps run numbers for us for, dps in 15km or 20km, ACpest and Bthron?
Yes please.
Assuming a max-skilled character
comparing a 650 dual T2 autopest w/barrage, with an Ion Blasterthron w/null... here is the raw dps
Mega / Pest 10km - 690 / 602 15km - 597 / 573 20km - 420 / 525 25km - 243 / 459 30km - 105 / 387 35km - 35 / 310
so cut the crap about the Null mega being overpowered. It isnt. What the nerf does is make the Null mega totally unusable.
never mind the rax/taranis... they wont be able to use null for anything
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Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dr Fighter i thought blasters track preety well (compared to other weapons) and dont you need less tracking at range, so what you mean is "my null wont hit small stuff at range any more?
Ohnoes, take a look at jav torps they are getting a similar nerf.
You are missing the point. Null is now USELESS, utterly and completely. While a similar ammo Barrage is untouched.
From what people are now telling me. Null on the mega was maybe a little overpowered, but not the the point where it was a major game killer. Null on the everything else was obsolutely fine, anyone telling you otherwise, or even remembers a specific time where they thought 'hey null is overpowerd on a ceptor/cruiser' is a ****ed liar.
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Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 02/11/2006 18:20:01
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:54:26
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
Perhaps, but not a nerf to oblivion. Can you perhaps run numbers for us for, dps in 15km or 20km, ACpest and Bthron?
Yes please.
Mega / Pest 10km - 690 / 602 15km - 597 / 573 20km - 420 / 525 25km - 243 / 459 30km - 105 / 387 35km - 35 / 310
I take back what i said. It's not even a 'little' overpowered. So 15k-20+ you outdamage the mega... so whats the problem?
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Tactician
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:30:00 -
[40]
Was very suprised by this change myself. Null never seemed overpowered anyway. Leave it as it is pls, kthx
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Corphus
Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:46:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Corphus on 02/11/2006 18:46:30 /signed (........................................) this much ! null is useless if i have the same dmg of standard uranium charge but a 50% worse tracking since i simply wont hit anything even if i get 25% more falloff and optimal.
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:51:00 -
[42]
If tux did not hate Blasters and was impartial about this,
and if he wanted to help AC boats,
and if he remembered that Hyperion was coming our with an active tank the same day that active tanks die,
he wouldnt have nerfed Null he would have changed it,
LIKE SO:
Same DPS as now (less than AM) 0 increase in optimal 0 increase in falloff (so like LEAD L), 50% LESS CAP USAGE than Lead L, 25% BETTER tracking than tech I ammo.
There, problem solved, Tempest still range king, Hyeprion a viable proposition.
As things stand ... these are n00b balance decision sorry Tux. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:36:00 -
[43]
The tempest outdamages the mega at 17500 km or about.You ussualy wan't to stay at 16-17KM range when fighting a mega.Anything further and its to easy for him to get out of disrupter range.Any closer and its more DPS for him + the risk of web range.
Get over it guys blasters are CLOSE RANGE weapons.Don't be ****ed when you can't hit as far as the medium/lower dps races.
Sorry you won't be able to solowtfpwn everything anymore. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Jouno
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:52:00 -
[44]
I dont get it why nerf null and not barrage? that just means its something wroung with blasters and not with the ammo then .... So please explain it tux
You agreed that blasters needed a boost a cople of months back and now you think they are overpowered with null ammo and the autos are not with barrage, this is just confusing me
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Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:54:00 -
[45]
Originally by: xeom The tempest outdamages the mega at 17500 km or about.You ussualy wan't to stay at 16-17KM range when fighting a mega.Anything further and its to easy for him to get out of disrupter range.Any closer and its more DPS for him + the risk of web range.
Get over it guys blasters are CLOSE RANGE weapons.Don't be ****ed when you can't hit as far as the medium/lower dps races.
Sorry you won't be able to solowtfpwn everything anymore.
Way to be bitter. So you think the fact Null is now useless in any situation, but barrage works fine is a good balance?
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:09:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Way to be bitter. So you think the fact Null is now useless in any situation, but barrage works fine is a good balance?
Hardly useless.You will be able to hit further,sence i beleive void is also getting a range nerf.The only thing now is that you will have a hard time killing mid range ships.
Blaster ships are NOT mid range.They are extreme close range weapons and should not be able to out DPS mid range ships upto 17k only 3k away from disrupter range.
We die if you get a web one us.You die if you don't or can't catch us.Simply put its our only defence.Sorry everythings not the way you wan't it to be. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:43:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/11/2006 20:44:19
Originally by: Butter Dog Assuming a max-skilled character
comparing a 650 dual T2 autopest w/barrage, with an Ion Blasterthron w/null... here is the raw dps
Mega / Pest 10km - 690 / 602 15km - 597 / 573 20km - 420 / 525 25km - 243 / 459 30km - 105 / 387 35km - 35 / 310
so cut the crap about the Null mega being overpowered. It isnt. What the nerf does is make the Null mega totally unusable.
never mind the rax/taranis... they wont be able to use null for anything
Here have some right and clear numbers in a pretty graph:
Ion Mega Vs 650 Pest -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Xori Ruscuv
1911 ftw
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:51:00 -
[48]
Originally by: xeom *stuff* Sorry everythings not the way you wan't it to be.
No you aren't!
Anyway, I'm training Minmatar. I feel like my blaster training was in vain. At least I have somewhere to turn with my gunnery and armor tanking skills
Now to train T2 ACs and missiles
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:57:00 -
[49]
Originally by: xeom The tempest outdamages the mega at 17500 km or about.You ussualy wan't to stay at 16-17KM range when fighting a mega.Anything further and its to easy for him to get out of disrupter range.Any closer and its more DPS for him + the risk of web range.
Get over it guys blasters are CLOSE RANGE weapons.Don't be ****ed when you can't hit as far as the medium/lower dps races.
Sorry you won't be able to solowtfpwn everything anymore.
you miss the point ffs...
The range is not changed!
Its the tracking god ****it!
You wouldnt even see the difference if it hit you in the face!
<3 |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:13:00 -
[50]
Edited by: xeom on 02/11/2006 21:13:39
Originally by: LWMaverick you miss the point ffs...
The range is not changed!
Its the tracking god ****it!
You wouldnt even see the difference if it hit you in the face!
Mabye my memory has gone bad.But i believe they reduced both the tracking and range the 1 time i was able to get on the test server.
EDIT:If its got the range reduction i see no need for a tracking nerf.On the other hand if it did not get the range nerf then it badly needs the tracking nerf. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:21:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/11/2006 21:21:58
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: xeom Edited by: xeom on 02/11/2006 21:13:39
Originally by: LWMaverick you miss the point ffs...
The range is not changed!
Its the tracking god ****it!
You wouldnt even see the difference if it hit you in the face!
Mabye my memory has gone bad.But i believe they reduced both the tracking and range the 1 time i was able to get on the test server.
EDIT:If its got the range reduction i see no need for a tracking nerf.On the other hand if it did not get the range nerf then it badly needs the tracking nerf.
I havent been able to get on today, but why would they nerf the tracking, if that isnt the issue.
Try to the see things from another angle from time to time, instead of just screaming "GaZlente NEDDZD teH nuRFZORZ!11oNEtWOBBQ"..
Making null useless, isnt exactly a fix, and telling me to use void, or antimatter instead, is not a fix either.
Null ammo, is not exactly overpowered as it is, but i do think its nice, and i find myself use it often.
If anything we're to be "nerfed", it would be range, and a 50% range reduction is way over the top too.
Making blasters top(max range) at 20km (at absolut falloff), would be semi-fair, but not under either, and saying that its unfair, cause i can still hit, well, hitting in deep falloff isnt exactly very nice, and dosnet result in high damage.
/Mav
<3 |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:30:00 -
[53]
Originally by: LWMaverick I havent been able to get on today, but why would they nerf the tracking, if that isnt the issue.
Try to the see things from another angle from time to time, instead of just screaming "GaZlente NEDDZD teH nuRFZORZ!11oNEtWOBBQ"..
Making null useless, isnt exactly a fix, and telling me to use void, or antimatter instead, is not a fix either.
Null ammo, is not exactly overpowered as it is, but i do think its nice, and i find myself use it often.
If anything we're to be "nerfed", it would be range, and a 50% range reduction is way over the top too.
Making blasters top(max range) at 20km (at absolut falloff), would be semi-fair, but not under either, and saying that its unfair, cause i can still hit, well, hitting in deep falloff isnt exactly very nice, and dosnet result in high damage.
/Mav
Null still has its use's.But just remeber you are a clonse range ship.No reason why you should hit that far.Its not your ships role,its like me asking for my tempest ION-VOID type damage.Just ain't gana happen.I beleive Void is getting a range nerf too.So now it will be like 3-6k for VOID.While Null will allow you to hit out at im guessing about 14K more then double of void.
The role of a blaster ship is close ragne bro.It shouldnt be able to hit far.Thats the whole thing about it.IF you get up close then your opponent is screwed.If not then things are going to get tuff for you.
You shouldn't be able to out DPS my tempest to 17k where i have to run.Or stay out of disrupter range and get screwed over. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Xori Ruscuv
1911 ftw
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:40:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/11/2006 21:43:15
Originally by: xeom Null still has its use's.But just remeber you are a clonse range ship.No reason why you should hit that far.Its not your ships role,its like me asking for my tempest ION-VOID type damage.Just ain't gana happen.
Well, see, that's just the problem. Null doesn't seem to have any real uses anymore. The tracking nerf makes dual webs necessary in many situations. However, if dual webs (or BS + tackler, whatever) are on the target, it means that the mega pilot is close enough that he may as well get a little closer and use far more powerful ammo, rather than even wasting space carrying the Null around.
The tracking nerf just doesn't make any sense. A range nerf would make some sense, but not tracking. Slightly reduced range would leave it a niche. Vastly reduced tracking = no more niche!
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:45:00 -
[55]
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: LWMaverick I havent been able to get on today, but why would they nerf the tracking, if that isnt the issue.
Try to the see things from another angle from time to time, instead of just screaming "GaZlente NEDDZD teH nuRFZORZ!11oNEtWOBBQ"..
Making null useless, isnt exactly a fix, and telling me to use void, or antimatter instead, is not a fix either.
Null ammo, is not exactly overpowered as it is, but i do think its nice, and i find myself use it often.
If anything we're to be "nerfed", it would be range, and a 50% range reduction is way over the top too.
Making blasters top(max range) at 20km (at absolut falloff), would be semi-fair, but not under either, and saying that its unfair, cause i can still hit, well, hitting in deep falloff isnt exactly very nice, and dosnet result in high damage.
/Mav
Null still has its use's.But just remeber you are a clonse range ship.No reason why you should hit that far.Its not your ships role,its like me asking for my tempest ION-VOID type damage.Just ain't gana happen.I beleive Void is getting a range nerf too.So now it will be like 3-6k for VOID.While Null will allow you to hit out at im guessing about 14K more then double of void.
The role of a blaster ship is close ragne bro.It shouldnt be able to hit far.Thats the whole thing about it.IF you get up close then your opponent is screwed.If not then things are going to get tuff for you.
You shouldn't be able to out DPS my tempest to 17k where i have to run.Or stay out of disrupter range and get screwed over.
Im not a tempest pilot.. im a very experience blaster pilot, and i know for sure, that i will have a hard time dealing high dps at 17k, without fitting tracking mods/range modifiers.
I agree i shouldnt be able to pwn at all ranges, defiantly agreed, and that blasters should be close range, amen to that, cause thats what i love.
But tbh, having 6k max range, really ****s you over, and thats why many non-t2 blaster users, often use iridium, or so, to give the extra range, at the expense of damage.
Same happens with null, for those who can/use t2 blasters.. is an aid in a handicaped situation, especially when meeting ships like typhoon and tempest.
Without null, and its ability to let me fire up to 20k or past(which i agree, could be cut off)(and we are still talking deep falloff here), i would die many many many more times, than whats happening so far, simply because people know that they should stay at deep falloff range, or stay out of my overall range.
Null is heaven sent in moments like that, but it dosent give me the pwn-ability either, since tracking can be a *****, especially when fighting minmatar bs's.. but gives me the ability to still play, and sometimes win(99% of the time, depending on how the pilot im up against, is piloting his ship, and how much he knows about tranvsersal, speed etc. etc.).
Nerfing null bigtime, is dangerous.. could cause us to be seriously handicaped, when fx. a tempest pilot could sit at 17k, ripping through my ship, without me being able to do much else, than sending my drones after him, and pray for backup.
to sum it up.. say no to tracking nerf, but maybe to be fair, yes, to a little range nerf, but thats it.. dont want another 6 months of handicaped blaster ships tbh.
oh.. and lets try to keep it friendly here, its a discussion about a possible balance issue, not a "bob vs. ascn - allinace thread".
Thank you.
/Mav
<3 |
MECTO
Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:48:00 -
[56]
i loved my 'ranis.. used only null on it, and now u kill my ceptor omg, need to switch to crow i c
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:53:00 -
[57]
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Way to be bitter. So you think the fact Null is now useless in any situation, but barrage works fine is a good balance?
Hardly useless.You will be able to hit further,sence i beleive void is also getting a range nerf.The only thing now is that you will have a hard time killing mid range ships.
Blaster ships are NOT mid range.They are extreme close range weapons and should not be able to out DPS mid range ships upto 17k only 3k away from disrupter range.
We die if you get a web one us.You die if you don't or can't catch us.Simply put its our only defence.Sorry everythings not the way you wan't it to be.
This is why there is a nerf.
Blaster wins close battle Mis range weapons (ACs) win midrange battles. Null threw that equation out the window.
Midrange blasterboats were overpowered. Mid range (barrage) AC boats still are not. If you get in close on and AC ship, blaster still wins.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 22:12:00 -
[58]
Originally by: xeom omg blaster pilots are gana have to get in close to do good damage!?!?! and they won't be able to out DPS the tempest at 17-19km.THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!
Funny thing is. This makes null closer too ACs then before. Should have just lowered the damage further instead of giving it a tracking nerf. It's a range option for blasters, for situations where nothing else would work. The fact that it replaced antimatter wasn't any good either, so something needed to be done. Too bad the wrong thing was done.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 22:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: xeom omg blaster pilots are gana have to get in close to do good damage!?!?! and they won't be able to out DPS the tempest at 17-19km.THE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!
Funny thing is. This makes null closer too ACs then before. Should have just lowered the damage further instead of giving it a tracking nerf. It's a range option for blasters, for situations where nothing else would work. The fact that it replaced antimatter wasn't any good either, so something needed to be done. Too bad the wrong thing was done.
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 22:20:00 -
[60]
Quad post......and read my most recent posts...... ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.02 22:51:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 02/11/2006 22:55:12
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/11/2006 20:55:03
Originally by: Butter Dog Assuming a max-skilled character
comparing a 650 dual T2 autopest w/barrage, with an Ion Blasterthron w/null... here is the raw dps
Mega / Pest 10km - 690 / 602 15km - 597 / 573 20km - 420 / 525 25km - 243 / 459 30km - 105 / 387 35km - 35 / 310
so cut the crap about the Null mega being overpowered. It isnt. What the nerf does is make the Null mega totally unusable.
never mind the rax/taranis... they wont be able to use null for anything
Here have some right and clear numbers in a pretty graph:
Ion Mega Vs 650 Pest
Tracking (rounded a bit): Mega = 0.079 Tempest = 0.06
Thats why it got a nerf... only difference now is the tracking.
Kali stats comparison
Tracking (rounded a bit): Mega = 0.03... Pest = 0.06
Finally a Pest can avoid damage...
My figures are based on guns, you have the drone figures included. The mega does have a bigger drone bay but people normally carry 5 lights and 4 heavy, or sometimes logistic drones, so I personally exclude them.
Oh, and your two graphs are identical. You need to factor in some transversal to actually see what is going to happen with the tracking nerf.
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 23:12:00 -
[62]
And a pest ussualy carrys 5 Med 5 lights Guess who still doing more dps... ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Deitre Cibrus
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.02 23:43:00 -
[63]
Can we get a Sisi stats on them right now from someone who screenshotted it or something. -----------
Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
What is this sig missing? |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 00:00:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Edited by: Deitre Cibrus on 02/11/2006 23:58:21 I should rethink my t2 large blaster training.
Yep because Void is going to suck now?
Stop crying guys its not of the end of the world.Your CLOSE range ship is not suposed to be mid range. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Parallax Error
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 00:09:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Here have some right and clear numbers in a pretty graph:
Ion Mega Vs 650 Pest
Tracking (rounded a bit): Mega = 0.079 Tempest = 0.06
Thats why it got a nerf... only difference now is the tracking.
Kali stats comparison
Tracking (rounded a bit): Mega = 0.03... Pest = 0.06
Finally a Pest can avoid damage...
Wait a second here. Those graphs are with 0m/s transversal, the AC's have double the tracking on the Kali graph and you think it's balanced?
Try running the graphs with a real amount of transversal involved.
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Deitre Cibrus
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.03 00:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Edited by: Deitre Cibrus on 02/11/2006 23:58:21 I should rethink my t2 large blaster training.
Yep because Void is going to suck now?
Stop crying guys its not of the end of the world.Your CLOSE range ship is not suposed to be mid range.
Don't assume why I rethink it. The Void L changes are fine, if anything, it deserves it. It's the Null's -------> TRACKING <------- nerf that makes me sad, even for my medium and small blasters. If they were to nerf Null's range only, I'd be fine with it, even if it ended up with -50% optimal, as long as it had it's tracking. 50% penalty to tracking completely kill Null, and as you said, Blasters get close, why would a t2 ammo have a range bonus on it? It just really needs it's tracking bonus more than anything. -----------
Originally by: Santiago Cortes Please don't derail your own thread.
What is this sig missing? |
Flabida jaba
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Posted - 2006.11.03 00:19:00 -
[67]
Jav torps..nerfed null ..nerfed barrage..will be next...lol
tech 2 is getting a whomping..... stand by for international rescue
woot this is awesome..tech 1 may even be able to compete when kali hits...
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 00:54:00 -
[68]
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Edited by: Deitre Cibrus on 02/11/2006 23:58:21 I should rethink my t2 large blaster training.
Yep because Void is going to suck now?
Stop crying guys its not of the end of the world.Your CLOSE range ship is not suposed to be mid range.
You fail horribly at acting mature.
We(at least some of us), tell from experience, that this nerf, is over the top, and shouldnt be this drastic, and some of us, are trying to come up with another way of fixing this so called "problem", where your are throughly bitter that you got your ass handed to you, at the mega's game.. close range(define that too please, cause imo, close range is 0-20k)
Other thing is, who said it wasnt supposed to ?
CCP obviously thinks it should, and what they have done so far, is to give null a tracking nref.. not a range nerf, so...
What are you basing it on?
<3 |
Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 01:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Edited by: Deitre Cibrus on 02/11/2006 23:58:21 I should rethink my t2 large blaster training.
Yep because Void is going to suck now?
Stop crying guys its not of the end of the world.Your CLOSE range ship is not suposed to be mid range.
You fail horribly at acting mature.
We(at least some of us), tell from experience, that this nerf, is over the top, and shouldnt be this drastic, and some of us, are trying to come up with another way of fixing this so called "problem", where your are throughly bitter that you got your ass handed to you, at the mega's game.. close range(define that too please, cause imo, close range is 0-20k)
Other thing is, who said it wasnt supposed to ?
CCP obviously thinks it should, and what they have done so far, is to give null a tracking nref.. not a range nerf, so...
What are you basing it on?
Ya. Smooth. Close range is 0-20k, meaning EVERY SOLO ENGAGEMENT.
At least you're being upfront in what you want. You're flat out asking to dominate every solo engagement. It seems, sad for you, that CCP has a slight problem with this.
And heck, you even explained in a previous post in this thread, that Null allowed your ship to engage Minmatar BS in their preferred range (right at the edge of disrupter range) when they have effectively utilized all of their strengths (speed/falloff), to counter your superior damage and tank, and Null allowed you to win 99% of these fights.
Of course this is balanced, right? I guess so, as long as you fly Gallente.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.03 02:26:00 -
[70]
For those that wanted it... A comparison of an Ion Megathron and d650 Tempest with transversal comparing the 50% tracking nerfed Null and the current Null ammo:
50% Tracking Current
It pretty much looks like a Null Mega still out damages the Barrage Tempest within scram range even with 50% less tracking.
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Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 02:28:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile For those that wanted it... A comparison of an Ion Megathron and d650 Tempest with transversal comparing the 50% tracking nerfed Null and the current Null ammo:
50% Tracking Current
It pretty much looks like a Null Mega still out damages the Barrage Tempest within scram range even with 50% less tracking.
Well, the nerf isn't just to tracking I believe. I think there is also a small decrease in range and a small decrease in damage.
Hopefully, after calculating in those changes as well, the graph will look a bit better.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.03 02:38:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg Well, the nerf isn't just to tracking I believe. I think there is also a small decrease in range and a small decrease in damage.
Hopefully, after calculating in those changes as well, the graph will look a bit better.
Not unless it has changed since these screenshots were made.
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Rezzn Mardok
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Posted - 2006.11.03 02:46:00 -
[73]
Don't modify tracking, maybe cut 10% damage off and 25% range.. That work? |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.11.03 03:09:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/11/2006 03:11:23
Originally by: Butter Dog My figures are based on guns, you have the drone figures included. The mega does have a bigger drone bay but people normally carry 5 lights and 4 heavy, or sometimes logistic drones, so I personally exclude them.
Oh, and your two graphs are identical. You need to factor in some transversal to actually see what is going to happen with the tracking nerf.
And guns arn't the only weapons used, ignoring drones isn't fair.
No doubt whatever traversal I did put in would be complained about as being "unrealistic".
2nd graph was with Kali ammo changes, I thought barrage was changed slightly but was mistaken.
Point is, are you saying you should be able to hit at 20km? What exactly is a Tempest meant to do to beat a Mega? And what happens when you try to close range to get into blaster range? Oh yeah traversal lowers...
I love it how when it comes to Arty having bad tracking compared to rails it isn't an issue, but omg blasters with a t2 ammo fitted has bad tracking! end of the world!
500 Traversal Graph
Is 500 traversal enough? God knows what its pilot is doing to not lower it.
Quote: Null is heaven sent in moments like that, but it dosent give me the pwn-ability either, since tracking can be a *****, especially when fighting minmatar bs's.. but gives me the ability to still play, and sometimes win(99% of the time, depending on how the pilot im up against, is piloting his ship, and how much he knows about tranvsersal, speed etc. etc.).
Yes cos "sometimes winning" is "99% of the time" which is of course balanced if its a Gallente ship... -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.03 03:20:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc 500 Traversal Graph
Even at 500m/s transversal (my graphs used 300 m/s) the Megathron outdamages the Tempest inside 20km more often than not. Realistically I'm not sure what can be done to Null to balance it vs. Autocannons, but I suspect that changing the base range/falloff of blasters themselves might do it. I doubt that would go over well though.
On the other hand, the 50% tracking on Null will hurt the Hyperion more than it hurts the Megathron due to the Megathrons 37.5% tracking bonus.... although I'm not sure there is much of a reason to use the Hyperion over the Megathron anyways so its kind of a moot point.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.03 03:32:00 -
[76]
The nullthron will still kill tempests because a tempest needs to move directly away from a blasterthron to maintain range, minimizing transversal.
Null makes AC boats obsolete. More damage, perfect for 20km scram range. This tracking change does nothing. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Rogerano
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Posted - 2006.11.03 03:34:00 -
[77]
It seems to me that you... gentlemen... are failing to consider that blasters are for, mostly, Gallente ships. And what are the Gallente renowned for? Drones! And what are drones renowned for? Reliable DPS at short to medium ranges.
You guys are looking at this situation with a magnifying glass. Use a wide angle lens and take in the whole picture. Changes have to be considered as part of a larger context. That's what the devs are doing (I hope).
But who am I to stand in the way of non-nonsensical whining?! Continue!
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:13:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg Ya. Smooth. Close range is 0-20k, meaning EVERY SOLO ENGAGEMENT.
At least you're being upfront in what you want. You're flat out asking to dominate every solo engagement. It seems, sad for you, that CCP has a slight problem with this.
And heck, you even explained in a previous post in this thread, that Null allowed your ship to engage Minmatar BS in their preferred range (right at the edge of disrupter range) when they have effectively utilized all of their strengths (speed/falloff), to counter your superior damage and tank, and Null allowed you to win 99% of these fights.
Of course this is balanced, right? I guess so, as long as you fly Gallente.
QFT
Agian sorry you won't be able to dominate every fight within disrupter range.Its called balanced get with it and use some webber drones and MWD up to the pest and kill him with void.You are a close range ship and should not hit as far as a mid range ship.
---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Xori Ruscuv
1911 ftw
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:18:00 -
[79]
All of this aside, the BIGGEST threat to blaster ships is:
*drumroll*
CAP! 50% HP BUFF!
Jeeze. People are forgetting this? THIS is what we need to be *****ing about. I know it is slightly off topic, but it is a far larger threat than the null nerf or the void nerf.
It is the 50% HP buff that will render blaster ships useless.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 04:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Edited by: Deitre Cibrus on 02/11/2006 23:58:21 I should rethink my t2 large blaster training.
Yep because Void is going to suck now?
Stop crying guys its not of the end of the world.Your CLOSE range ship is not suposed to be mid range.
You fail horribly at acting mature.
We(at least some of us), tell from experience, that this nerf, is over the top, and shouldnt be this drastic, and some of us, are trying to come up with another way of fixing this so called "problem", where your are throughly bitter that you got your ass handed to you, at the mega's game.. close range(define that too please, cause imo, close range is 0-20k)
Other thing is, who said it wasnt supposed to ?
CCP obviously thinks it should, and what they have done so far, is to give null a tracking nref.. not a range nerf, so...
What are you basing it on?
Ya. Smooth. Close range is 0-20k, meaning EVERY SOLO ENGAGEMENT.
At least you're being upfront in what you want. You're flat out asking to dominate every solo engagement. It seems, sad for you, that CCP has a slight problem with this.
And heck, you even explained in a previous post in this thread, that Null allowed your ship to engage Minmatar BS in their preferred range (right at the edge of disrupter range) when they have effectively utilized all of their strengths (speed/falloff), to counter your superior damage and tank, and Null allowed you to win 99% of these fights.
Of course this is balanced, right? I guess so, as long as you fly Gallente.
Most of the times i win against minmatar bs's, is because they **** up.. like getting within my web range, sit still, or some of the thousand other things that can be forgotten or go wrong. What am i talking about?.. skill, personal skills.
Null allowed me to shoot back, now is that wrong? If i hadnt bring it, i would be dead.
Still, you didnt get the point either.. do i have to say this again?.. oh well, seems like it :
Null got a tracking nerf, and not range nerf, so why oh why, are you still complaining about range, if you want it to get a range nerf instead, then say so, instead of just being bitter, and want blasters nerfed back to the stonage.
/Mav
<3 |
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 04:39:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv All of this aside, the BIGGEST threat to blaster ships is:
*drumroll*
CAP! 50% HP BUFF!
Jeeze. People are forgetting this? THIS is what we need to be *****ing about. I know it is slightly off topic, but it is a far larger threat than the null nerf or the void nerf.
It is the 50% HP buff that will render blaster ships useless.
true.. thats a problem too, but that is not what this thread is about.
<3 |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:44:00 -
[82]
Originally by: LWMaverick Null allowed me to shoot back, now is that wrong? If i hadnt bring it, i would be dead.
Allows you to shoot back and do more damage... so whats the point of flying an AC Tempest when your range advantage becomes completely meaningless due to Null? Blasters with Null need a range nerf.
Regarding the tracking issue even with a 50% penalty the Megathron out damages the AC Tempest within 20km more often than not. Check the graphs above.
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Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:47:00 -
[83]
Originally by: LWMaverick
Most of the times i win against minmatar bs's, is because they **** up.. like getting within my web range, sit still, or some of the thousand other things that can be forgotten or go wrong. What am i talking about?.. skill, personal skills.
Null allowed me to shoot back, now is that wrong? If i hadnt bring it, i would be dead.
Still, you didnt get the point either.. do i have to say this again?.. oh well, seems like it :
Null got a tracking nerf, and not range nerf, so why oh why, are you still complaining about range, if you want it to get a range nerf instead, then say so, instead of just being bitter, and want blasters nerfed back to the stonage.
/Mav
Wait... you won because they "messed up and got in web range" but needed null to shoot back?
Jesus, make up your mind. If you win your fights in web range then you don't need null. You're playing to the supposed strengths of your ship, and please understand that not a single minmatar pilot is suggesting or has suggested that we should be able to get in close to a blaster boat and beat them. That would be ridiculous and unbalanced. So why do Gallente pilots keep asking for the reverse?
Thing is, perhaps the tracking nerf is the wrong way to go. The graphs being done with the tracking nerf are showing that it doesn't fix what needs to be fixed, and, if you guys are to be believed, breaks what doesn't need to be broken.
So, what then? If we take what has been suggested here, a slight range nerf and a slight damage nerf, even one tracking computer would make up the difference and put blasterboats back up to the 20km effective range.
How about, if you think the tracking penalty is too much/wrong direction, make an actual suggestion that:
A) Makes blasterboats no longer effective at 20k (for BS ships), basically, get blasters out of the realm of autocannons.
and B) Still gives Null a unique yet situational role.
Don't try and act like you're being reasonable and suggest changes that you know won't fix the imbalance and try to prop them up as a real alternative.
Be reasonable, seek actual balance, and you'll find that a lot more of the community will support you.
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:53:00 -
[84]
Itaro Flagg - My new hero! ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:55:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Itaro Flagg Well, the nerf isn't just to tracking I believe. I think there is also a small decrease in range and a small decrease in damage.
Hopefully, after calculating in those changes as well, the graph will look a bit better.
Not unless it has changed since these screenshots were made.
I that case it hasn't been nerfed enough range reduction please. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 05:09:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg
Originally by: LWMaverick
Most of the times i win against minmatar bs's, is because they **** up.. like getting within my web range, sit still, or some of the thousand other things that can be forgotten or go wrong. What am i talking about?.. skill, personal skills.
Null allowed me to shoot back, now is that wrong? If i hadnt bring it, i would be dead.
Still, you didnt get the point either.. do i have to say this again?.. oh well, seems like it :
Null got a tracking nerf, and not range nerf, so why oh why, are you still complaining about range, if you want it to get a range nerf instead, then say so, instead of just being bitter, and want blasters nerfed back to the stonage.
/Mav
Wait... you won because they "messed up and got in web range" but needed null to shoot back?
Jesus, make up your mind. If you win your fights in web range then you don't need null. You're playing to the supposed strengths of your ship, and please understand that not a single minmatar pilot is suggesting or has suggested that we should be able to get in close to a blaster boat and beat them. That would be ridiculous and unbalanced. So why do Gallente pilots keep asking for the reverse?
Thing is, perhaps the tracking nerf is the wrong way to go. The graphs being done with the tracking nerf are showing that it doesn't fix what needs to be fixed, and, if you guys are to be believed, breaks what doesn't need to be broken.
So, what then? If we take what has been suggested here, a slight range nerf and a slight damage nerf, even one tracking computer would make up the difference and put blasterboats back up to the 20km effective range.
How about, if you think the tracking penalty is too much/wrong direction, make an actual suggestion that:
A) Makes blasterboats no longer effective at 20k (for BS ships), basically, get blasters out of the realm of autocannons.
and B) Still gives Null a unique yet situational role.
Don't try and act like you're being reasonable and suggest changes that you know won't fix the imbalance and try to prop them up as a real alternative.
Be reasonable, seek actual balance, and you'll find that a lot more of the community will support you.
First... Why would i use void at 9k, your not exactly a rocket science huh? I didnt say i always use it, but i said i often use it, try to read, instead of making something up.
Blasters is king of close range, and should be, read the description.. i agreed that ranged could be nerfed, but not tracking.. again, read! read! READ!
AHH Finally your talking sense, range nerf, not tracking.
a single tracking computer, and im supposed to fit that where?.. and that means i have to sacrifice another slot for that.. is that a slight nerf? a whole slot?
"How about, if you think the tracking penalty is too much/wrong direction, make an actual suggestion that:"
Now your going the wrong way again, if you would just read what ive written so far, you wouldnt be saying this.. this is simply retarded.. ive already suggested, and i have already said im in for a change, but tracking is the wrong way to go.
DO I REALLY HAVE TO QUOTE MYSELF?!
"Don't try and act like you're being reasonable and suggest changes that you know won't fix the imbalance and try to prop them up as a real alternative."
Way to make yourself look retarded once again.. you got nothing here, read above. rofl
/Mav
<3 |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 05:14:00 -
[87]
To quote myself, from the exact same thread we are in right now:
Quote: I havent been able to get on today, but why would they nerf the tracking, if that isnt the issue.
Try to the see things from another angle from time to time, instead of just screaming "GaZlente NEDDZD teH nuRFZORZ!11oNEtWOBBQ"..
Making null useless, isnt exactly a fix, and telling me to use void, or antimatter instead, is not a fix either.
Null ammo, is not exactly overpowered as it is, but i do think its nice, and i find myself use it often.
If anything we're to be "nerfed", it would be range, and a 50% range reduction is way over the top too.
Making blasters top(max range) at 20km (at absolut falloff), would be semi-fair, but not under either, and saying that its unfair, cause i can still hit, well, hitting in deep falloff isnt exactly very nice, and dosnet result in high damage.
Quote: Im not a tempest pilot.. im a very experience blaster pilot, and i know for sure, that i will have a hard time dealing high dps at 17k, without fitting tracking mods/range modifiers.
I agree i shouldnt be able to pwn at all ranges, defiantly agreed, and that blasters should be close range, amen to that, cause thats what i love.
But tbh, having 6k max range, really ****s you over, and thats why many non-t2 blaster users, often use iridium, or so, to give the extra range, at the expense of damage.
Same happens with null, for those who can/use t2 blasters.. is an aid in a handicaped situation, especially when meeting ships like typhoon and tempest.
Without null, and its ability to let me fire up to 20k or past(which i agree, could be cut off)(and we are still talking deep falloff here), i would die many many many more times, than whats happening so far, simply because people know that they should stay at deep falloff range, or stay out of my overall range.
Null is heaven sent in moments like that, but it dosent give me the pwn-ability either, since tracking can be a *****, especially when fighting minmatar bs's.. but gives me the ability to still play, and sometimes win(99% of the time, depending on how the pilot im up against, is piloting his ship, and how much he knows about tranvsersal, speed etc. etc.).
Nerfing null bigtime, is dangerous.. could cause us to be seriously handicaped, when fx. a tempest pilot could sit at 17k, ripping through my ship, without me being able to do much else, than sending my drones after him, and pray for backup.
to sum it up.. say no to tracking nerf, but maybe to be fair, yes, to a little range nerf, but thats it.. dont want another 6 months of handicaped blaster ships tbh.
Quote: Dude.. its a forum, for discussion.
Balance is essential for a game like this, to go on.
Should we just sit back and wait for the bang, and see what we trained for, go down the drain?
go back to antimatter?.. meh, yeah, if t2 was removed all together
Quote: Why would they nerf the tracking then, and not the range?...
Want me to cut it out in paper for you too?
<3 |
LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 05:15:00 -
[88]
Originally by: xeom Itaro Flagg - My new hero!
Yeah.. u two together, would make a nice team
<3 |
xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 05:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: xeom Itaro Flagg - My new hero!
Yeah.. u two together, would make a nice team
I never once mentioned that the tracking nerf was needed.But it was stated by others the null needed its range and that it should be able to hit upto 20km.
I don't really understand the tracking nerf.Its not really needed whats needed is a range nerf. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 06:22:00 -
[90]
Originally by: LWMaverick
First... Why would i use void at 9k, your not exactly a rocket science huh? I didnt say i always use it, but i said i often use it, try to read, instead of making something up.
Blasters is king of close range, and should be, read the description.. i agreed that ranged could be nerfed, but not tracking.. again, read! read! READ!
AHH Finally your talking sense, range nerf, not tracking.
a single tracking computer, and im supposed to fit that where?.. and that means i have to sacrifice another slot for that.. is that a slight nerf? a whole slot?
"How about, if you think the tracking penalty is too much/wrong direction, make an actual suggestion that:"
Now your going the wrong way again, if you would just read what ive written so far, you wouldnt be saying this.. this is simply retarded.. ive already suggested, and i have already said im in for a change, but tracking is the wrong way to go.
DO I REALLY HAVE TO QUOTE MYSELF?!
"Don't try and act like you're being reasonable and suggest changes that you know won't fix the imbalance and try to prop them up as a real alternative."
Way to make yourself look retarded once again.. you got nothing here, read above. rofl
/Mav
Way to try and misrepresent my post. I'm sure that *really* helps get your point across.
Here, let me break it down simple.
Null needs a nerf. So far, this is pretty much entirely agreed upon.
It needs a nerf, because autocannons need a viable role in combat, which, without null, is in the 15-25k range (or 15-20k in solo pvp). This part, well, you haven't agreed upon, but I won't say that you have disagreed with it yet either. So, since I'm not going to insult your intelligence here, we'll assume you agree.
So, then, null needs to be nerfed in such a way that it fixes this issue.
You are unhappy with the tracking nerf. Okay, fine, but the suggestions you've made do NOT meet the requirements for what needs to be nerfed on null. The "best" of your suggestions is to adjust null so that you can still hit at 20km, but "in deep falloff". Hell, autocannons are deep into falloff at 20km. IT WOULDN'T FIX THE PROBLEM. You would still be out damaging autocannons at 20km.
So, why not retort with a reasonable alternative?
Go ahead, I know you can do it.
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MECTO
Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.03 06:51:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg It needs a nerf, because autocannons need a viable role in combat, which, without null, is in the 15-25k range (or 15-20k in solo pvp). This part, well, you haven't agreed upon, but I won't say that you have disagreed with it yet either. So, since I'm not going to insult your intelligence here, we'll assume you agree.
lol and u think after null nerf barrage will be the same?? it will benefit SAME tracking penalty/nerfed damage and range compared to null, SO?
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 06:57:00 -
[92]
Originally by: MECTO
Originally by: Itaro Flagg It needs a nerf, because autocannons need a viable role in combat, which, without null, is in the 15-25k range (or 15-20k in solo pvp). This part, well, you haven't agreed upon, but I won't say that you have disagreed with it yet either. So, since I'm not going to insult your intelligence here, we'll assume you agree.
lol and u think after null nerf barrage will be the same?? it will benefit SAME tracking penalty/nerfed damage and range compared to null, SO?
Umm... What?
Are you saying that whatever nerfs null gets, barrage will also? If so, might I direct you to the test server, where barrage has absolutely no changes. You see, barrage, unlike null, is fine. It plays into the strengths of autocannons instead of extending its strengths to something they shouldn't be.
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MECTO
Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:02:00 -
[93]
Edited by: MECTO on 03/11/2006 07:03:12
Originally by: Itaro Flagg
Originally by: MECTO
Originally by: Itaro Flagg It needs a nerf, because autocannons need a viable role in combat, which, without null, is in the 15-25k range (or 15-20k in solo pvp). This part, well, you haven't agreed upon, but I won't say that you have disagreed with it yet either. So, since I'm not going to insult your intelligence here, we'll assume you agree.
lol and u think after null nerf barrage will be the same?? it will benefit SAME tracking penalty/nerfed damage and range compared to null, SO?
Umm... What?
Are you saying that whatever nerfs null gets, barrage will also? If so, might I direct you to the test server, where barrage has absolutely no changes. You see, barrage, unlike null, is fine. It plays into the strengths of autocannons instead of extending its strengths to something they shouldn't be.
half of javelin torps have no nerf too, and what? barrage will get same nerfs, so don't talk about some advantage or "coolnes" of AC compared to blasters - they will suck too u know
its just a test server - they don't maked all changes now, but tux is asure to make barrage teh same bull****, so don't worry
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:07:00 -
[94]
I suppose that remains to be seen.
However, I think you're only hoping for company in your misery. As similar as null and barrage look on the surface, there is a world of difference. Null is getting nerfed because it needs it, barrage doesn't and there are no nerfs in sight for it.
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Hinkledolph
Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:19:00 -
[95]
Another t2 ammo that is now useless.
Tuxford's job here is done!
Go Team Balance!
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MECTO
Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:21:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg I suppose that remains to be seen.
However, I think you're only hoping for company in your misery. As similar as null and barrage look on the surface, there is a world of difference. Null is getting nerfed because it needs it, barrage doesn't and there are no nerfs in sight for it.
u have your faith. but tux already stated somewhere that barrage will be nerfed same as null, even falloff
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:23:00 -
[97]
Originally by: MECTO
Originally by: Itaro Flagg I suppose that remains to be seen.
However, I think you're only hoping for company in your misery. As similar as null and barrage look on the surface, there is a world of difference. Null is getting nerfed because it needs it, barrage doesn't and there are no nerfs in sight for it.
u have your faith. but tux already stated somewhere that barrage will be nerfed same as null, even falloff
Link, or it never happened.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:24:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv All of this aside, the BIGGEST threat to blaster ships is:
*drumroll*
CAP! 50% HP BUFF!
Jeeze. People are forgetting this? THIS is what we need to be *****ing about. I know it is slightly off topic, but it is a far larger threat than the null nerf or the void nerf.
It is the 50% HP buff that will render blaster ships useless.
WAAH WAAH WAAH WAAH
Instead of taking 5 volleys to kill a battleship in a blasterthron it'll take 7 or 8! WAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 EXTRA SECONDS!!!!!!!!!!!
SHUT THE HELL UP GALLENTE WHINERS.
NULL IS STILL OVERPOWERED EVEN WITH THE TRACKING NERF BECAUSE IT MAKES AUTOCANNONS POINTLESS. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EVEN HAVE A LONG RANGE AMMO FOR BLASTERS!!!!!!!!!! - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:55:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv All of this aside, the BIGGEST threat to blaster ships is:
*drumroll*
CAP! 50% HP BUFF!
Jeeze. People are forgetting this? THIS is what we need to be *****ing about. I know it is slightly off topic, but it is a far larger threat than the null nerf or the void nerf.
It is the 50% HP buff that will render blaster ships useless.
WAAH WAAH WAAH WAAH
Instead of taking 5 volleys to kill a battleship in a blasterthron it'll take 7 or 8! WAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 EXTRA SECONDS!!!!!!!!!!!
SHUT THE HELL UP GALLENTE WHINERS.
NULL IS STILL OVERPOWERED EVEN WITH THE TRACKING NERF BECAUSE IT MAKES AUTOCANNONS POINTLESS. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EVEN HAVE A LONG RANGE AMMO FOR BLASTERS!!!!!!!!!!
Huh? Last time i checked your acs were doing more dps than blasters... only problem is that you can fit only 6. Maybe you should start fitting something useful on those 2 remaining slots... oh wait 2x nosf for t3h lazy? Remove flashes from capital torps.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.03 08:11:00 -
[100]
Originally by: LUKEC Huh? Last time i checked your acs were doing more dps than blasters... only problem is that you can fit only 6. Maybe you should start fitting something useful on those 2 remaining slots... oh wait 2x nosf for t3h lazy?
Don't forget to fit "something useful" on that remaining high slot on the Megathron as well...
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Tanya Kovacs
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.03 09:01:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 03/11/2006 09:02:16 Hm you guys are all the time talking about Blaster-Mega vs. AC-Pest. This comparsion may be the reason for the nerf, but what about the smaller sizes of Null? M or S? What about Ranis and other blasterships (even unorthodox ones like Beagle or Boa) without trackingbonus? Mega even has a tracking bonus per level, so it's hit by this nerf but not as hard as ships without this bonus. For any ship without trackingbonus, t2-blasterammo is now useless.
Tux: PLEASE, remove t2-ammo at all or bring a solid, balanced solution. kthx. -- All my postings reflects just my personal opinion and my lacking knowledge of proper english.
There is no lag in EVE \o/ |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 09:28:00 -
[102]
Originally by: LUKEC
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv All of this aside, the BIGGEST threat to blaster ships is:
*drumroll*
CAP! 50% HP BUFF!
Jeeze. People are forgetting this? THIS is what we need to be *****ing about. I know it is slightly off topic, but it is a far larger threat than the null nerf or the void nerf.
It is the 50% HP buff that will render blaster ships useless.
WAAH WAAH WAAH WAAH
Instead of taking 5 volleys to kill a battleship in a blasterthron it'll take 7 or 8! WAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 EXTRA SECONDS!!!!!!!!!!!
SHUT THE HELL UP GALLENTE WHINERS.
NULL IS STILL OVERPOWERED EVEN WITH THE TRACKING NERF BECAUSE IT MAKES AUTOCANNONS POINTLESS. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EVEN HAVE A LONG RANGE AMMO FOR BLASTERS!!!!!!!!!!
Huh? Last time i checked your acs were doing more dps than blasters... only problem is that you can fit only 6. Maybe you should start fitting something useful on those 2 remaining slots... oh wait 2x nosf for t3h lazy?
He is right about the silly range though. I dont care if blasters have 10000 dps within 5 km, but they shouldnt outdamage autocannons at 10-20 km. They should be extreme close range weapons, not weapons that cover the entire warp disruptor range.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Fogy
Caldari Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:03:00 -
[103]
Go to the tracking guide, put in the numbers.. and se what you gett..
This nerf was indeed needed.. and the outcome isn't as bad as you guys think...
Cheers! Fogy
"From my rotting boddy flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity"
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:05:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: LUKEC Huh? Last time i checked your acs were doing more dps than blasters... only problem is that you can fit only 6. Maybe you should start fitting something useful on those 2 remaining slots... oh wait 2x nosf for t3h lazy?
Don't forget to fit "something useful" on that remaining high slot on the Megathron as well...
Dammit, had a nice post with lots of numbers and the board ate it.
Summary of that post:
- ion Mega doesn't have the CPU to fit anything to that last slot if it wants to have a tank.
- Electron mega can fit a heavy nos there, but its optimal+falloff with null is 7.5km + 9.375km, i.e. it does very little damage over 16km.
- Dual 650 II Tempy with 2*siege IIs has 7156,6 grid and 384,5 CPU remaining, ion II Mega 7795,3 grid and 341 CPU. CPU is the limiting factor.
- If the above Tempy uses 5*HH 2 and Mega 3*Berserker 2 and 2*Valkyrie 2 (with 5 lights in reserve for both), with 2 dam mods each
Megathron outdamages the Tempest by 2.5%.
- In exchange, the Mega self-drains its cap by effective 3 heavy and 1 medium nosferatus.
Fair exchange? Dunno.
Reason to nerf null? No.
-- NMTZ forum |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:08:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Megathron outdamages the Tempest by 2.5%.
What ammo are you comparing with? Hail? Every damage graph I run shows megathron having much, much higher dps, specially with its heavy drones.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:12:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Megathron outdamages the Tempest by 2.5%.
What ammo are you comparing with? Hail? Every damage graph I run shows megathron having much, much higher dps, specially with its heavy drones.
Dammit, haven't they fed this board? Another post eaten...
Anyway, it was barrage vs null and included the DoT from drones listed and two T2 sieges on Tempest. - If no one fits those, it just means that nosferatus are even better. -- NMTZ forum |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:33:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 10:36:20
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Megathron outdamages the Tempest by 2.5%.
What ammo are you comparing with? Hail? Every damage graph I run shows megathron having much, much higher dps, specially with its heavy drones.
Dammit, haven't they fed this board? Another post eaten...
Anyway, it was barrage vs null and included the DoT from drones listed and two T2 sieges on Tempest. - If no one fits those, it just means that nosferatus are even better.
When the board tries to eat my posts, I just click Back and get the post back. Firefox ftw. :)
Anyway, I ran some dps stats for Megathron and Tempest (here) and its just silly what range null ammo has. As you can see, its pretty much impossible for the Tempest to outdamage the Megathron even with siege at below 20 km. This needs changing! Blasters shouldnt have that range. Its just silly. They are close range guns ffs...
Megathron with void looks perfect to me. High damage, close range. But null range is just over the top. I mean, they make autocannons obsolete. Its pretty serious.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Damien Smith
Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:41:00 -
[108]
As has been said in this thread before, you lot are all talking about the blasterthron vs acpest. The blasterthron isn't the only null using ship.
If your problem with null L is range, then nerf the range. Logical no? Instead in order to nerf null L what's happened is you've effectively killed any smaller ship that uses null+high transversal to win fights. I fly the taranis quite a lot and null is pretty much the only choice for general use. Void's tracking is too bad to deal with a fast moving ranis's transversal and its range compared to the taranis's closest orbit distance just isn't good enough. You may as well just use antimatter...
The thorax is also going to be hit very hard by this, if the hp boost and resultant blaster cap issues aren't bad enough as it is.
If null's range needs nerfing, then reduce its range bonus. At least then the taranis and thorax won't be indirectly hit with the nerfbat yet again. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) Mission running carebears drop good loot. Probe one out today! I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg +=♥ - Immy |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:48:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Damien Smith
If null's range needs nerfing, then reduce its range bonus. At least then the taranis and thorax won't be indirectly hit with the nerfbat yet again.
If I would have been in charge, I would have made null ammo get -25% range instead of the current +25% range it has. And I would raise its damage and leave tracking alone. I dont know why ccp dont just keep blasters extreme damage, CLOSE range weapons.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:58:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Rogerano It seems to me that you... gentlemen... are failing to consider that blasters are for, mostly, Gallente ships. And what are the Gallente renowned for? Drones! And what are drones renowned for? Reliable DPS at short to medium ranges.
You guys are looking at this situation with a magnifying glass. Use a wide angle lens and take in the whole picture. Changes have to be considered as part of a larger context. That's what the devs are doing (I hope).
But who am I to stand in the way of non-nonsensical whining?! Continue!
Let me deal with the theoretical conceptual discussions, and you stick to facts. It'll be much better that way.
Fact 1: Megathron can use only 2 more heavy drones than Tempest and Maelstrom, no extra drones compared to Typhoon. (This means +126dps with Ogre IIs and max skills) Fact 2: Hyperion can use no more drones than a Tempest or Maelstrom, and the Typhoon uses more drones. Fact 3: The Dominix does not have enough powergrid to fit competative turret set ups, and as such can not be compared to weapon system ships like the Tempest or Megathron.
And not to forget Fact 4: While Null is being nerfed, the stats on Barrage is not. While fitted on longer range turrets and used at longer range, Barrage does not have reduced tracking. This is a bit illogical, the shorter ranged of the pair get a nerf on the short-range statistic while the longer ranged of the pair does not.
As for Void, I can not really understand why Void is getting nerfed further. It was marginally useful as it was, and only served to make people frustrated when they did graphs. The capacitor usage on Void was utterly devastating to the point where it was utterly useless against anything but capital ships that could not fight back. This is from experience, not dimwitted theory.
I believe that in the end, EVE still suffer from the extremely short ranged warp jamming which favours blaster ships in battleship combat. If warp jamming was extended in range to where even Mega Pulse Lasers might participate (with this I mean MP + T1 ammo, not long range T2), EVE's ship balance would be harmonized. 40km warp disruptors would be a much welcome benefit for ACs and Pulses, no? Perhaps they'd need increased powergrid requirement to 50MW so as not to completely overpower the Crow, though. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:00:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Anyway, I ran some dps stats for Megathron and Tempest (here) and its just silly what range null ammo has. As you can see, its pretty much impossible for the Tempest to outdamage the Megathron even with siege at below 20 km.
Why are you comparing the smallest autocannons with the largest blasters, which Mega cannot fit without dropping its tank? Try 650s vs ions.
(I'd really recommend using 4*Berserkers for Mega and 5*Hammerheads for Tempest, but that's not too important.) -- NMTZ forum |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:10:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Anyway, I ran some dps stats for Megathron and Tempest (here) and its just silly what range null ammo has. As you can see, its pretty much impossible for the Tempest to outdamage the Megathron even with siege at below 20 km.
Why are you comparing the smallest autocannons with the largest blasters, which Mega cannot fit without dropping its tank? Try 650s vs ions.
(I'd really recommend using 4*Berserkers for Mega and 5*Hammerheads for Tempest, but that's not too important.)
Doesnt neutrons fit on the mega if you use a cpu implant? But I can make another graph with ions. The range of null is my largest complaint though, not the dps of it. Ill make a new thread with it...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
gh0zt
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 11:12:00 -
[113]
this nerf would be a really bad idea ccp... mega finally lives up to its name and power with t2 ammo now you want to take it away? it has short enough range as it is. how is it that arma's with mega pulses can do great damage with great tracking out to 30km or so. and with 5 heavies and 8 lows they can break blasterthron dmg. i dont really know but is t2 crystals getting nerfed too or has it been?
This is the mega's only reliable method of killing hacs... drones will be killed in a battle over time and then what will mega have... nos and very little cap left with null ammo that doesn't track? It isn't the range most of time anyways as good hac pilots, vagabond asside will get right in close to try and get under tracking.. web and blasters with null was only reliable way to kill hacs in any situation... as long as you have cap...
what im saying is now this ship will be vulnerable to anything smaller than it with good resists and enough cap to tank drones
not a good nerf in my opinion... a lot of people would be mad
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doctorstupid2
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:17:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 02/11/2006 17:54:26
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Null made AC boats completely obsolete. It could use a nerf imho.
Perhaps, but not a nerf to oblivion.
QFT
I've said it once, and I'll say it again; if it's outperforming other t2 ammos at range, LOWER IT'S DAMAGE, DON'T MAKE IT USELESS.
please?
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:22:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg
Originally by: LWMaverick
First... Why would i use void at 9k, your not exactly a rocket science huh? I didnt say i always use it, but i said i often use it, try to read, instead of making something up.
Blasters is king of close range, and should be, read the description.. i agreed that ranged could be nerfed, but not tracking.. again, read! read! READ!
AHH Finally your talking sense, range nerf, not tracking.
a single tracking computer, and im supposed to fit that where?.. and that means i have to sacrifice another slot for that.. is that a slight nerf? a whole slot?
"How about, if you think the tracking penalty is too much/wrong direction, make an actual suggestion that:"
Now your going the wrong way again, if you would just read what ive written so far, you wouldnt be saying this.. this is simply retarded.. ive already suggested, and i have already said im in for a change, but tracking is the wrong way to go.
DO I REALLY HAVE TO QUOTE MYSELF?!
"Don't try and act like you're being reasonable and suggest changes that you know won't fix the imbalance and try to prop them up as a real alternative."
Way to make yourself look retarded once again.. you got nothing here, read above. rofl
/Mav
Way to try and misrepresent my post. I'm sure that *really* helps get your point across.
Here, let me break it down simple.
Null needs a nerf. So far, this is pretty much entirely agreed upon.
It needs a nerf, because autocannons need a viable role in combat, which, without null, is in the 15-25k range (or 15-20k in solo pvp). This part, well, you haven't agreed upon, but I won't say that you have disagreed with it yet either. So, since I'm not going to insult your intelligence here, we'll assume you agree.
So, then, null needs to be nerfed in such a way that it fixes this issue.
You are unhappy with the tracking nerf. Okay, fine, but the suggestions you've made do NOT meet the requirements for what needs to be nerfed on null. The "best" of your suggestions is to adjust null so that you can still hit at 20km, but "in deep falloff". Hell, autocannons are deep into falloff at 20km. IT WOULDN'T FIX THE PROBLEM. You would still be out damaging autocannons at 20km.
So, why not retort with a reasonable alternative?
Go ahead, I know you can do it.
Read my suggestion in page 2. Returns range to ACs and helps Blasters with hp chnages in Kali as well as with the missin gbomus on the Hyperion. 3 birds with one stone. Too complicated for Tux though I fear. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Setana Manoro
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:44:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Flaming sambuka Null = long range blaster ammo, tracking hit means pointless at long range so... why???
What does long range mean for you ? Because long range for a taranis with ion blasters with null means 3km + 2.5km falloff. 3KM is hardly long range.
--------------------------------------------------
Always look on the bright side of life. :) |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:45:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Why are you comparing the smallest autocannons with the largest blasters, which Mega cannot fit without dropping its tank? Try 650s vs ions.
Doesnt neutrons fit on the mega if you use a cpu implant? But I can make another graph with ions. The range of null is my largest complaint though, not the dps of it. Ill make a new thread with it...
No cpu implant needed if you use named modules in the mids, but no way you're going to fit a large repper on it, thus a dropped tank. -- NMTZ forum |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.03 13:28:00 -
[118]
Time to start stocking up on antimatter I suppose.
If the 'rax is hit too hard to survive real combat in Kali, there's always ganking noobs instead. ----------
IBTL \o/ |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:16:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Time to start stocking up on antimatter I suppose.
If the 'rax is hit too hard to survive real combat in Kali, there's always ganking noobs instead.
the end is nigh!!1 - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Murukan
Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:05:00 -
[120]
If you tards actually looked at the graph you would see that up to 20km thron with null still out damages a tempest. Further than 20km i hope the tempest is packing a faction disruptor.
And oh noes my tracking is nerfed a bit you mean to say that the tempest might use it's one advantage (*gasps* higher speed??!!!) now in fights!! WTF NERF THAT **** MAN!
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:07:00 -
[121]
The case is quite simple: Null may have needed a slight 'balance' but tracking is NOT it.
Range is clearly what everyone has the problem with, so a slight reduction in the range and falloff bonuses would give the AutoPest its niche in the 15-20km range (which is very nearly already has anyway), without killing Null stone dead.
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Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:12:00 -
[122]
If its such a weak nerf in your opinion then pls apply the nerf to Barrage as well...
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:29:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 03/11/2006 20:30:11
Originally by: Butter Dog The case is quite simple: Null may have needed a slight 'balance' but tracking is NOT it.
Range is clearly what everyone has the problem with, so a slight reduction in the range and falloff bonuses would give the AutoPest its niche in the 15-20km range (which is very nearly already has anyway), without killing Null stone dead.
Honestly I'd rather see Null be left alone and the falloff of blasters cut in half. Going by the description (Note: its generally a bad idea to balance based on descriptions) of blasters: Originally by: Description of Blasters No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters, but due to the rapid dispersion of the containment field, it also has the worst range of all turrets.
The range on small and medium blasters would probably have to be upped by a bit to compensate, but this would still make blasters own at short range without having to introduce a tracking or range nerf to Null to allow autocannons a chance to compete.
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:17:00 -
[124]
Die gallente ! Minmatar 4tw !
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Alowishus
Shadow Company Alektorophobia
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:25:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Alowishus on 03/11/2006 21:25:23
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon I'm going to start a thread for the folks tired of the ranting and whining, who are looking to adjust and evolve with new ship layouts and new ideas.
This wonderful place you speak of sounds like heaven.
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goodby4u
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:55:00 -
[126]
Sounds like the damage mod nerf with amarr,enough people whined so it got nerfed,people whine about the"ubergankerness"of the megathron and dominix now both are getting nerfed,thats the way it works.
That being said i dont think nerfing anything is needed nor boosting anything,amarr are amarr caldari are carebears and gellente are just strange...
Oh yeah and i am saying the game is balanced,yes i do fly amarr too
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Murukan
Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:07:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Kunming If its such a weak nerf in your opinion then pls apply the nerf to Barrage as well...
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone. Now with the nerf they still have the range but at the cost of some tracking. This will actually allow minmatar to use their supposed speed advantage over gallente. So now with null you won't be hitting as much as before, but hey guess what with barrage you don't hit as much either cause you're in falloff what a ******* idea huh?!
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:18:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Murukan
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone.
This is pure BS.
AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Anyone who claims anything more dramatic is wrong.
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Murukan
Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:22:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Murukan
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone.
This is pure BS.
AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Anyone who claims anything more dramatic is wrong.
And how feasible is it to keep the thron at 18kms the whole fight?
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:28:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Butter Dog AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Graphs say otherwise: Ion Mega vs. 650 Autopest
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:32:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Butter Dog AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Graphs say otherwise: Ion Mega vs. 650 Autopest
LOL! 2 damage mods? Well its clear who wins that fight out DPS'ed and tanked.
Yep its so **** balanced \o/ ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Murukan
Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:42:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Murukan
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone.
This is pure BS.
AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Anyone who claims anything more dramatic is wrong.
Heh look at the spreadsheets turns out you're quite wrong.
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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LWMaverick
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 23:02:00 -
[133]
"So, since I'm not going to insult your intelligence here...."
... Go ahead..
....
"the suggestions you've made do NOT meet the requirements for what needs to be nerfed on null."
5-7km nerf isnt enough?.. mkay Maybe null needs a damage reduction, and not a range reduction then.
Your trying to get null nerfed bigtime, and im tying to make you understand that you will make null useless, if you do so..
Especially if it gets a 50% tracking penalty!
<3 |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.04 07:15:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Murukan
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone.
This is pure BS.
AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Anyone who claims anything more dramatic is wrong.
Heh look at the spreadsheets turns out you're quite wrong.
That spreadsheet doesn't include two siege launchers on the Tempest, which it can fit quite easily. Remember, if you decide to fit nosfes there, it's because they are better than the sieges. -- NMTZ forum |
Jouno
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.11.04 10:07:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Jouno on 04/11/2006 10:09:03 I just saw apart from the dmg decrease void now has a fallof penalty of 50% also hail has that penalty but not the conflagration.... Way to go ccp all t2 blaster ammo is allmost useless now, antimatter it is then.
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Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2006.11.04 12:07:00 -
[136]
I feel like I posted to a another thread that.
The Null nerf is thanks to ROKH.. (naturally I can be wrong.)
Say if it has to be nerfed just remove the optimal range bonus. and scrap the tracking bonus. Or it will totally effect smaler ships using it as well.
If this all was thanks to the ROKH it would totally .. well you know the word.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.04 12:20:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 04/11/2006 12:21:41
Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Murukan
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone.
This is pure BS.
AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Anyone who claims anything more dramatic is wrong.
Heh look at the spreadsheets turns out you're quite wrong.
the spreadsheets include 5 ogre II's on the mega... most mega pilots will carry at most 4, with 5 lights, or logistic/ecm/utility drones... also the graphs assume you are using the 2 spare highs on the tempest for nos rather than seige launchers
if you look at the damage from the GUNS (for it is the ammo we are talking about) you will see that the tempest already outdamages the mega from 15km onwards
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webkert
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.04 12:39:00 -
[138]
Originally by: LWMaverick
Your trying to get null nerfed bigtime, and im tying to make you understand that you will make null useless, if you do so..
Especially if it gets a 50% tracking penalty!
As useless as conflagration always has been?
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.11.04 12:53:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 04/11/2006 12:56:35
Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 04/11/2006 12:21:41
Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Murukan
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone.
This is pure BS.
AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Anyone who claims anything more dramatic is wrong.
Heh look at the spreadsheets turns out you're quite wrong.
the spreadsheets include 5 ogre II's on the mega... most mega pilots will carry at most 4, with 5 lights, or logistic/ecm/utility drones... also the graphs assume you are using the 2 spare highs on the tempest for nos rather than seige launchers
if you look at the damage from the GUNS (for it is the ammo we are talking about) you will see that the tempest already outdamages the mega from 15km onwards
It's a shame people don't just use there guns when fighting...
Mega with 4 Heavies vs Pest
It's more like 18km with 1 damage mod each, which is "best case" for the Tempest, the Mega will nearly never have less damage mods than a Pest, but is likely to have more.
Also note i'm trying to be realistic and use explosive drones which I think is the common type to balance out the kin/thermal damage of blasters while the Pest uses thermal to balance with it kin/exp damage.
Seige Launchers? You'd have to use 425mm's and t1 tank to try and get enough CPU to fit them. You get more damage from a damage mod than fitting seige launchers. The cpu problems caused by seige launchers isn't worth the minimal damage they add. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.04 13:44:00 -
[140]
Mila, I still don't see a problem in that graph.
The Mega is better under 15km, which it should be as Gallente are supposed to be the best at close range. They are equal between 15-20km. And the Tempest is better 20km+
So whats the problem?
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Tommy Vercetti
Minmatar Custodes Valhallae
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:15:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Kunming If its such a weak nerf in your opinion then pls apply the nerf to Barrage as well...
Great logic there, I'm nerfing one thing, why not just nerf it all. Wait, that might make everything exactly the same as it is now..........
Originally by: Pestillence
It's a game where we fly around in eggs with tubes up our arses. If I want reality I'll go outside.
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Tommy Vercetti
Minmatar Custodes Valhallae
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:18:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Tommy Vercetti on 04/11/2006 15:18:09
Originally by: Butter Dog Mila, I still don't see a problem in that graph.
The Mega is better under 15km, which it should be as Gallente are supposed to be the best at close range. They are equal between 15-20km. And the Tempest is better 20km+
So whats the problem?
The pest is better outside scram range. So how can I scram a mega and outdamage it at the same time? better at 20km+ might as well be 40km+ in solo pvp if you arent packing faction heat.
Originally by: Pestillence
It's a game where we fly around in eggs with tubes up our arses. If I want reality I'll go outside.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:59:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Edited by: Tommy Vercetti on 04/11/2006 15:18:09
Originally by: Butter Dog Mila, I still don't see a problem in that graph.
The Mega is better under 15km, which it should be as Gallente are supposed to be the best at close range. They are equal between 15-20km. And the Tempest is better 20km+
So whats the problem?
The pest is better outside scram range. So how can I scram a mega and outdamage it at the same time? better at 20km+ might as well be 40km+ in solo pvp if you arent packing faction heat.
A domination scramber scrambles at 30km.
Or a tackler could orbit the mega at 15km.
Don't use the limitations of one T1 module as justification to kill Null stone dead, it simply doesnt work.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:02:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 11:06:21 Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 10:57:09
Originally by: Damien Smith
If null's range needs nerfing, then reduce its range bonus. At least then the taranis and thorax won't be indirectly hit with the nerfbat yet again.
If I would have been in charge, I would have made null ammo get -25% range instead of the current +25% range it has. And I would raise its damage and leave tracking alone. I dont know why ccp dont just keep blasters extreme damage, CLOSE range weapons.
Bit too much of a nerf as well if you ask me, but would have been better then this change. Tracking nerf just doesn't make sense to me, or 25% tracking nerf with a 0% increase in ragne. That would be ideal in my book. Fact is indeed, that ifyou double blaster range, a no tracking hit to your guns means a helluvalot better tracking aswell due to the quite heavy effect of range on tracking. But still. This change pretty much means you can deal with the same transversal at a further range, meaning you can only hit the same targets as with the standard no modifier ammo, and twice better then with antimatter.... hmmm thinking on this, I'm actually kinda fine with it. Removes the very nice ability of my t2 med blasters to hit ebil frigates with null, but think I can live with that.
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:14:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 04/11/2006 16:16:39
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Edited by: Tommy Vercetti on 04/11/2006 15:18:09
Originally by: Butter Dog Mila, I still don't see a problem in that graph.
The Mega is better under 15km, which it should be as Gallente are supposed to be the best at close range. They are equal between 15-20km. And the Tempest is better 20km+
So whats the problem?
The pest is better outside scram range. So how can I scram a mega and outdamage it at the same time? better at 20km+ might as well be 40km+ in solo pvp if you arent packing faction heat.
A domination scramber scrambles at 30km.
Or a tackler could orbit the mega at 15km.
Don't use the limitations of one T1 module as justification to kill Null stone dead, it simply doesnt work.
Don't use faction modules as a way of balancing things. Needing a 60m+ module isn't exactly balanced.
Tracking nerf is a strange nerf and a bit of a hack job, I would prefer to give minny's a better reason to increase tiers.
ATM Hybrids and Lasers increase both Optimal and Falloff per tier but Projectiles only increase Optimal, which it has the lowest.
Either: A) Make Lasers and Hybrids only increase in optimal per tier like Projectiles B) Make Projeciles increase in Falloff per tier like Lasers and Hybrids.
If a Mega fit's Neutrons there is very little a Tempest can do to get out of its range, fitting 800mm's give an awesome 1200m (something like that) extra optimal while the Mega is getting an extra couple of thousand optimal and extra couple of thousand falloff...
Make the Projectile get better range per tier like all the others.
Release T2 warp scramblers/disruptors as: T2 warp scrambler = 10km range and 2pt's T2 wrap disruptors = 30km range and 1pt's.
Amarr and Minny will then be able to contribute and compete better in close range fights. -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:48:00 -
[146]
Originally by: webkert
Originally by: LWMaverick
Your trying to get null nerfed bigtime, and im tying to make you understand that you will make null useless, if you do so..
Especially if it gets a 50% tracking penalty!
As useless as conflagration always has been?
Blasters have higher base tracking by a significant amount, so no, not that useless.
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Trefnis
Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2006.11.05 00:33:00 -
[147]
I think the plan was to nerf hard null (tracking) to make mega lose vs barrage pest and on the other hand nerf hail (less dmg and force into blaster range) to make pest lose vs void mega.
Still tracking nerf is stupid on bs lvl as tempy runing away from mega will get 50-100 trans at best so it wont help anyway, range and DAMAGE would be better i think to nerf.
ps. are you not mad that you just wont be able to pwn hacs in blastermegas after the patch like you used to ? cos bs vs bs is no difference at all and you know it.
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Tribunal
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:22:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Tribunal on 05/11/2006 01:22:13
Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Murukan
Simply put no because null had made the whole point of minmatar close range obsolete. Autocannon's only advantage over blasters is the fact that they get a ton of falloff so they tend to be able to shoot out farther from blaster's range. But with null that advantage was gone.
This is pure BS.
AutoPests outdamage megathrons using Null from about 16km outward, which is how it should be.
Anyone who claims anything more dramatic is wrong.
And how feasible is it to keep the thron at 18kms the whole fight?
Use a tackler you tard! =P
"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers |
Avoid
Gallente Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:26:00 -
[149]
Why dont u try fit a blasterT whit void ammo and try to kill smtg whit it?, Its pretty simple, u dont hit annything at all if u are moving. Thats why people use null ammo so u can sit still and hit the targets.
There is no fights in pvp were you are in range to use void ammo.
If you want to make it more even compaired to other things, decrease the damage null does whit 10% - 15% Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes "Here was the brand of the cigerates i smoke"
I don't smoke - Cortes |
Spaja Saist
Gallente Knights of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:56:00 -
[150]
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Edited by: Deitre Cibrus on 02/11/2006 23:58:21 I should rethink my t2 large blaster training.
Yep because Void is going to suck now?
Stop crying guys its not of the end of the world.Your CLOSE range ship is not suposed to be mid range.
Man I hate retarded people like you. What part of tracking nerf not doing anything to range don't you get? Instead of reducing the range it just make the ammo unusable.
I have to say, I thought TomB was terrible with balancing but then Tux came along and made TomB look like he actually knew what he was doing. Everything Tux touches is a disaster. CCP would you please fire this guy before he ruins your game.
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Spaja Saist
Gallente Knights of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:57:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Itaro Flagg
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: xeom
Originally by: Deitre Cibrus Edited by: Deitre Cibrus on 02/11/2006 23:58:21 I should rethink my t2 large blaster training.
Yep because Void is going to suck now?
Stop crying guys its not of the end of the world.Your CLOSE range ship is not suposed to be mid range.
You fail horribly at acting mature.
We(at least some of us), tell from experience, that this nerf, is over the top, and shouldnt be this drastic, and some of us, are trying to come up with another way of fixing this so called "problem", where your are throughly bitter that you got your ass handed to you, at the mega's game.. close range(define that too please, cause imo, close range is 0-20k)
Other thing is, who said it wasnt supposed to ?
CCP obviously thinks it should, and what they have done so far, is to give null a tracking nref.. not a range nerf, so...
What are you basing it on?
Ya. Smooth. Close range is 0-20k, meaning EVERY SOLO ENGAGEMENT.
At least you're being upfront in what you want. You're flat out asking to dominate every solo engagement. It seems, sad for you, that CCP has a slight problem with this.
And heck, you even explained in a previous post in this thread, that Null allowed your ship to engage Minmatar BS in their preferred range (right at the edge of disrupter range) when they have effectively utilized all of their strengths (speed/falloff), to counter your superior damage and tank, and Null allowed you to win 99% of these fights.
Of course this is balanced, right? I guess so, as long as you fly Gallente.
But they aren't you ninny. They aren't reducing the range at all. Just the tracking.
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Spaja Saist
Gallente Knights of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.11.05 02:10:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv All of this aside, the BIGGEST threat to blaster ships is:
*drumroll*
CAP! 50% HP BUFF!
Jeeze. People are forgetting this? THIS is what we need to be *****ing about. I know it is slightly off topic, but it is a far larger threat than the null nerf or the void nerf.
It is the 50% HP buff that will render blaster ships useless.
WAAH WAAH WAAH WAAH
Instead of taking 5 volleys to kill a battleship in a blasterthron it'll take 7 or 8! WAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 EXTRA SECONDS!!!!!!!!!!!
SHUT THE HELL UP GALLENTE WHINERS.
NULL IS STILL OVERPOWERED EVEN WITH THE TRACKING NERF BECAUSE IT MAKES AUTOCANNONS POINTLESS. YOU ARE LUCKY TO EVEN HAVE A LONG RANGE AMMO FOR BLASTERS!!!!!!!!!!
You sir are an idiot. I guess you failed your math classes. 50% HP increase to all ships means fights will take far longer than before which also means that cap becomes even more important. So the Amarr are gonna really get hit by this increase as they use the most cap in the game. Of course Minmater and Caldari won't have to worry about that since their primary weapons use no cap. All this *****ing about ACs not being as good as blasters is mute. Minmaters always fail to take into consideration the fact that their main weapons use no cap. That in itself is a huge bonus. You want to do the same damage as blasters then expend the cap to do it. You seem to miss the fact that you can do almost the same DPS at a longer range than blasters yet use no cap. Soundds like Tux needs to nerf minmater and make their guns use cap.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.05 02:15:00 -
[153]
O.K. Here is a question
Is the current iteration of conflagration on TQ unusable/useless at all ranges?
If you say yes, why?
If you say no, then there isnt anything to complain about with Null, as pulse lasers have about 60% the base tracking of blasters, and conflagration has a 50% tracking penalty on top of that.
If you want to fight at medium ranges with a blaster boat, you will have to play a manuver game in order to decrease transversal/angular velocity in order to score hits on equally skilled pilots using autocannons who are also able to outrun your turrets.
Compared the a Megapulse user at that range you will have roughly 60% more tracking than their current tracking on TQ. Conflagration is not useless as far as I can tell, and because of such, i dont think that the tracking nerf is really going to be all that bad.
It aint the end of long range blasters folks, its just the end of them out damaging and out tracking autocannons who were supposed to be kings at that range.
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Audrea
Momentum.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 03:03:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 02/11/2006 17:35:25
Originally by: Flaming sambuka Null = long range blaster ammo, tracking hit means pointless at long range so... why???
What is worse, is that this is only half the story.
On small ships like the Taranis and Thorax which often rely on transversal to stay alive, Null will be completely useless. No-one in their right mind would use it.
Yes, what a bastards. One hand is boosting the Deimos, the other hand nerfs her right away! ------------------ Save Tranquility! |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.11.05 03:30:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Tasty Burger on 05/11/2006 03:30:38
Originally by: Avoid Why dont u try fit a blasterT whit void ammo and try to kill smtg whit it?, Its pretty simple, u dont hit annything at all if u are moving. Thats why people use null ammo so u can sit still and hit the targets.
There is no fights in pvp were you are in range to use void ammo.
If you want to make it more even compaired to other things, decrease the damage null does whit 10% - 15%
So basically you're an idiot and dont know how to reduce transversal? And you want to be able to just "sit still and hit the targets"? Also, lol at "There is no fights in pvp were you are in range to use void ammo. " Right.
I do agree with your idea though.
Null should not have a tracking penalty.
However, it should have 15% less damage than now, perhaps less falloff boost as well. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.06 05:50:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Seige Launchers? You'd have to use 425mm's and t1 tank to try and get enough CPU to fit them. You get more damage from a damage mod than fitting seige launchers. The cpu problems caused by seige launchers isn't worth the minimal damage they add.
Erm.
7 Ion IIs: 346,5 CPU 6 650 IIs + 2 siege IIs: 303 CPU
Given that Mega and Tempest have the same of CPU, that argument doesn't fly. -- NMTZ forum |
gh0zt
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Posted - 2006.11.06 06:13:00 -
[157]
this whole idea sucks big time...
ccp are you ready to **** of the entire gallente community with this little manuevre... its not a nerf its pretty much taking null out of the game
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ZZandra
Amarr Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:36:00 -
[158]
/signed...leave it as is
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Gorith
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:25:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Gorith on 14/11/2006 22:27:34 /signed. whats the point in nerfing void its hard as hell to get within void range and if its dmg becomes about the same as antimatter void is pointless. and null.. mabe a small tweak but making it where we now cant hit anyone in orbit on us. geez atleast spend a few months testing the changes on singularity or with a small mixed group on a closed server (players not devs) befor pushing it on us
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goodby4u
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:55:00 -
[160]
Note i have not read all 5 pages of this discussion so im probably going to say something somebody else already said but whatever.
They are nerfing the longerrange ammo because they think blasters need to be blasters and come close,this would bring about better tempest vs mega fights.
They are nerfing shortrange because they do alot of damage and in kali they dont want damage they want tank.
They are nerfing shortrange and longerrange sniper ammo because they want longer fleetbattles and they want to limit people that arent flying rokhs below the cuttoff.
Keep in mind they are nerfing everybodies t2 ammo also.
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MOS DEF
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:59:00 -
[161]
Signed. Most stupid change ever. The fact that barrage stays unharmed is a slap in the face. Running out of cap after half of the fight dying a slow horrible death is bad enough allready. Let us at least die in dignity so we can actually hit something before we run out of cap boosters.
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goodby4u
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Posted - 2006.11.14 23:03:00 -
[162]
Originally by: MOS DEF Signed. Most stupid change ever. The fact that barrage stays unharmed is a slap in the face. Running out of cap after half of the fight dying a slow horrible death is bad enough allready. Let us at least die in dignity so we can actually hit something before we run out of cap boosters.
Their not nerfing barrage?Signed then!
Mainly because they are nerfing blasters rails beams pulse missiles arts....Not autocannons?
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Ihar Enda
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.14 23:36:00 -
[163]
/signed
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Sadist
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.14 23:41:00 -
[164]
/Signed тттттттттттт
VIP member of the [23]
Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
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Mikelio Raijan
Sulithus
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Posted - 2006.11.15 20:46:00 -
[165]
How did this get down here? Back to the top!
If you want to help tempests kite throns then reduce the faloff on null to a 0.75 mod intead of the 1.25 mod, but seriously, what do you expect a taranis to hit with all it's t2 ammo gimping tracking? Tracking with an orbit as close as is required for blasters is allready tough... don't make it impossible!
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Stormhold
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 21:58:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Mila Prestoc Seige Launchers? You'd have to use 425mm's and t1 tank to try and get enough CPU to fit them. You get more damage from a damage mod than fitting seige launchers. The cpu problems caused by seige launchers isn't worth the minimal damage they add.
Erm.
7 Ion IIs: 346,5 CPU 6 650 IIs + 2 siege IIs: 303 CPU
Given that Mega and Tempest have the same of CPU, that argument doesn't fly.
I would kill for a ion-fitted blasterthron with 43.5 more cpu to use.
Anyway, calculating that with 1 gun size doesn't solve anything anyway. Need to do it with all sizes really. Besides, you need to take ship slots to account too etc.
PS. Don't nerf null that bad atleast, Tuxie <3
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Dana Barrett
Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.15 22:18:00 -
[167]
I'm late to this thread, but all I can say is this: Gallente's time has come. If you look at the AFs, Gallente has nearly zero penalties when using T2 ammo (Null and Void). Caldari AFs, on the other hand, have to deal with either T2 missiles (that slow you down bigtime) or T2 rails (Javelin slows you to a standstill, and Spike has awful tracking and crap damage). IMHO light missiles and railguns need something on par with blaster ammo, where my Harpy/Hawk setup will not be nerfed to oblivion.
Or you can take the other approach like CCP, and instead of buffing Caldari AFs and listening to many on here whine about Caldari pwnage, they nerf T2 blaster ammo.
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Murukan
Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.11.15 22:32:00 -
[168]
OMG NERF AUTOCANNONS TOO THEY ARE TOO L33T!
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Angus McLean
Gallente Divinity Trials
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Posted - 2006.11.15 22:50:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon I'm going to start a thread for the folks tired of the ranting and whining, who are looking to adjust and evolve with new ship layouts and new ideas.
Are there changes that will throw the current system awry? Absolutely. Do we have better things to do than complain about it? I certainly hope so.
Yes, t2 ammo is getting thumped. Yes, ammo-using folks are getting thumped. Yes, capacitor-hungry setups are going to suffer. Yes, God hates Gallentes. Or doesn't. It's irrelevant. Yes, Caldaris are going to enjoy the benefits of these changes more than others.
Great. We've got that settled. The world isn't fair.
Can we move on, please? Join in on one of the already-existing complaint threads instead of lobbing up another.
You forgot 1.
Yes, Amarr as of 2006 have officially become a faction and not an empire.
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